#3
I gave $25 to the NYC ASPCA after the 9/11 attacks in honor of Rudy Guiliani because they said it would go to the Rescue Dogs and animals abandoned by their owners who were killed in the attacks or left because their owners couldn't go back to their apartments, like the folks who lived in Battery Park City.
They said the K-9 dogs were getting burned paws from working on the still hot wreckage at Ground Zero.
The story that really got me was when the K-9 handlers said they had to pretend to find "someone" because even these dogs were depressed that they weren't finding anyone in the rubble of the WTC.
I can't look at 9/11 pictures now without crying, but thanks, Dotcom. We need this tonight for sure. I will never forget 9/11.
Posted by: Jen ||
05/07/2004 23:16 Comments ||
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#4
If you've never seen this 9/11 site, please give it a listen / look. Haunts.
http://www.exhibit13.com/watch_f_hi.html
I will never forget, either. It took me many years of self-indulgence and wasted motion, prolly par for the course, but I finally got it -- I know what's important, now.
Iowahawk does what Iowahawk does so well... IMAMS: "YOU HAD US AT âSORRYâ"
Washington - The recent apology of US President George W. Bush for abuses by American military prison guards continued to reverberate around the globe today, as the White House was again inundated with with a flurry of "apology accepted" notes from world media, governmental leaders, and Islamic fundamentalist clerics.
Typical of the responses was a personal note from Syrian president Bashar Al-Assad, who wrote "aww, dude, you know I canât stay mad at you," saying that the apology had prompted him to immediately dismantle his countryâs secret nuclear weapons program. In a postscript, Assad added, "good luck to the Rangers this year."
"Now was that so hard?" joked Palestinian leader Yassir Arafat in an email to Bush. "Now get out of here ya knucklehead, before we have to do one of those awkward man-hugs." Read da whole thing...
Most Americans express dismay about the abuse of Iraqi detainees by U.S. soldiers, and the nation divides on whether the Bush administration sought at first to investigate the scandal â or to cover it up. Letâs start with the good news
Yet more than six in 10 also see these incidents as isolated, and say they should not cost Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld his job. 69% but letâs round down
Three-quarters of the public are closely following the story, a level of attention reserved for some of the most gripping news events. Two-thirds favor criminal charges against the soldiers involved; fewer â but still a majority â 54 percent, say punishment should go up the chain of command to higher-level officers who allowed a breakdown of training and discipline.
Posted by: Mr. Davis ||
05/07/2004 7:10:11 PM ||
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#1
I hope you'll do what I did and send an email to President Bush saying you support SecDef Rumsfeld!
Go to the White House site for the email link.
Posted by: Jen ||
05/07/2004 19:19 Comments ||
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#2
Jen - Consider it done.
However we have to shame the MN folks for electing a nitwit like "Sen" Mark Dayton
And this bozo is the direct descendant of Johnathan Dayton who signed the Declaration of Independence? Grandpa must be spinning in his grave!
#3
This whole incident has left me deeply ashamed. How could I have ever been a member of the Democratic Party? How, oh HOW, could I have ever believed that any of them were anything other than roaring assholes? HOW??????
The notion that Rumsfeld-- or anyone else, for that matter, other than personnel in the unit where this incident took place-- should resign over this, is completely asinine. And our endless hand-wringing over this months-old incident has got to leave the rest of the world wondering if we're a bunch of neurotic sissies. Fuck that. Let's get on with the damn war, and win it.
As for me, I shall atone for my former Democratude by writing a check to Bush-Cheney '04. Let's win that war, too.
Posted by: Dave D. ||
05/07/2004 20:05 Comments ||
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Dave,
You must be very young. This event has given the Democrat leadership the opportunity to relive the most golden moments of their youth, forcing LBJ and Nixon out of office. It just doesn't get any better than that for political boomers, and you're just going to have to put up with it until they die or are voted out of office.
Posted by: Mr. Davis ||
05/07/2004 20:11 Comments ||
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#5
I'm 55. I learn slow.
Posted by: Dave D. ||
05/07/2004 20:20 Comments ||
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#6
The radical left & crack pot Islamo's hate the Rummy, thus he must remain and continue battling the enemy overseas so we do not have to combat these jihadists on a death wish, in the streets of NYC!
Back the Rummy, dump the Dems.
Posted by: Mark Espinola ||
05/07/2004 20:32 Comments ||
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#7
Join me in not only telling the White House to keep Rumsfeld, and writing a check to Bush/Cheney 04, but also donating to Thune in South Dakota. We need to get rid of the obstructionist Daschle.
As loath as I am to get on a political mailing list, our country's future is just too important to sit this one out.
Posted by: Barbara Skolaut ||
05/07/2004 20:50 Comments ||
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Barbara, hon, being on a political mailing list isn't so bad...
I loved getting a White House Christmas card, postmarked Crawford, from George and Laura Bush!
Now, maybe if I hock my mink, I could donate enough to get invited to one of those parties to meet them!
Posted by: Jen ||
05/07/2004 20:55 Comments ||
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#9
Jen, I think both Thune and Bush are missing out on some money by not having a PayPal button. I'm pissed enough right now to drag out the credit card, but I would have donated sooner if I could have tapped by PayPal account.
Wonder why they don't have PayPal and Amazon buttons?
Posted by: Barbara Skolaut ||
05/07/2004 21:17 Comments ||
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#10
I'm sure they'd take a check, Barbara, but why not drag out the credit card and head on over to GeorgeWBush.com?
And we want Thune to kick Daschle to the curb BIG TIME!
Posted by: Jen ||
05/07/2004 21:24 Comments ||
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#11
Jen - Already done both. I'll transfer some money out of my PayPal account to cover it.
A check's even more of a pain, since there's the envelope to address, stamp to find, etc.
I'm just saying any of the candidates could probably get more money if they had PayPal buttons. They need to make it as easy as possible for people to part with their money.
Posted by: Barbara Skolaut ||
05/07/2004 22:56 Comments ||
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"The notion that Rumsfeld-- or anyone else, for that matter, other than personnel in the unit where this incident took place-- should resign over this, is completely asinine. "
In democracies the political authorities are responsible for the deeds and misdeeds of the army. Resigning in response may be an exaggeration, but hardly "completely asinine".
#15
Aris, in our system, the civilian leadership of the DOD is there for oversight which can in the extreme can become micro-management. You are right that a SecDef can be derelict with regard to oversight, but the operational chain-of-command is separate and I believe skips the Sec Def and goes directly to the Commander-in-Chief. It has been several years since I had to memorize my two chains-of-command.
Regardless, I don't think that Rumsfeld should be the bagman on this one. I would like to see him appoint a Pentagon working group to reorganize logistics and procedures for war zone detention facilities and practices. I believe that the military did an excellent job with regard to the logistics of getting the chicken wire and plywood where is needed to be, but we didn't do so well with regard to training. I don't have a problem with using contract personnel in detention centers or even with contracting out the entire detention operation, but it has to be done effectively by a qualified contractor.
Posted by: Super Hose ||
05/08/2004 5:25 Comments ||
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from NRO A Vast Conspiracy Nothing funny about this top-ten list.
By Steven Stalinsky
Abd Al-Munim Said, head of the Al-Ahram Research Center in Egypt, once said: "We thought that by the end of the 20th century, the Arab mind would be open enough not to explain everything with a âconspiracy theoryâ...the biggest problem with conspiracy theories is that they keep us not only from the truth but also from confronting our faults and problems...This way of thinking relates any given problem to external elements, and thus does not [lead] to a rational policy to confront the problem." Since 9/11/01, conspiracy theories against the U.S., the Jews, and the Zionists have been rampant in the Arab world. These notions are spread not only by marginal personalities and media outlets, but, more important, by prominent members of mainstream governments and media.
Some of last yearâs most far-fetched conspiracy theories in the Arab world include: U.S. soldiers cannibalized Iraqi civilians; the U.S. was responsible for the car bomb that killed Iraqi Shia leader Muhammad Bakir Al-Hakim; the Jews were behind the explosion of the space shuttle Columbia; the U.S. was behind the SARS virus; and the Iraq war was launched to coincide with the Jewish holiday Purim. The following highlight the top ten Arab conspiracy theories in recent months:
10. Pakistani Jamaat ud-Dawa chief Hafiz Muhammad Saeed was quoted in the Islamic Republic News Agency on November 13, 2003, stating that al Qaeda was not responsible for the Riyadh bombing that month. Rather, "It is a Jewish and American conspiracy against the mujahadeen and al Qaeda." Amerikans .5, Jooos .5
9. According to an editorial in the November 20 Yemen Times, the Istanbul bombings during Ramadan this past November could not have been committed by Muslims, as "the international Zionist establishment was keen on instigating this crime. This is strongly supported by the fact that no Muslim in his right mind could ever condone such crimes." Amerkans .5, Jooos 1.5
8. The Islamic Republic News Agency reported on February 28 that the U.S. captured Osama bin Laden in a tribal region of Pakistan. It claimed that Donald Rumsfeldâs recent trip to Pakistan was related to the capture. The report said that the U.S. will announce the capture shortly before the November presidential elections. Amerikans 1.5, Jooos 1.5
7. Professor Galal Amin, a professor at the American University of Cairo, writing in the April 1 edition of Egyptâs Al-Ahram Weekly, explained: "There is still doubt that the September [11] attacks were the outcome of Arab and Islamic terror.... Many writers... suspect that the attacks were carried out by Americans." Amerikans 2.5, Jooos 1.5
6. Writing in Kuwaitâs Al-Watan on March 14, columnist Adnan Zayid Al-Kazimi identified the real culprit in the Madrid bombings: "I claim with certainty that the ones who attributed all evil to the Arabs and the Muslims are the Zionists, those who are closest to carry out such an operation like the other operations [that they carried out]." Amerikans 2.5, Jooos 2.5
5. Said Al-Subki, columnist for the Saudi daily Al-Watan, also blamed the Madrid bombings on the Jews in its March 19 edition. He criticized Arab intelligence services for being "incapable of discovering the hidden Zionist fingers planning many terror operations in order to entangle the Arabs and Muslims." Amerikans 2.5, Joos 3.5
4. Deputy editor of the Egyptian government daily Al-Gumhouriyya wrote an article on March 18 that accused the Jews of perpetrating every terrorist attack throughout the world. Regarding the Madrid bombings that took place March 11, Abd Al-Wahhab Adas claimed, in reference to the explosives and cassettes of the Koran found at the site, "It is obvious that the Jews are the ones who placed these things, in order to prove to the entire world that the Arabs and Muslims are behind the bombings." Adas added about the Jews: "It is they who are behind the events of September 11." Amerikans 2.5, Jooos 4.5
3. In an interview with Al-Arabiyya TV, Lebanese Druze leader and parliamentarian Walid Jumblatt stated on March 21 that, as part of a "born-again Christian" scheme that included 9/11, the CIA controls Osama bin Laden. Amerikans 3.5, Jooos 4.5
2. According to the Iranian Mehr News Agency, Hossein Sheikholeslam, the former Iranian ambassador to Syria, stated that the series of bombings that hit Damascus in the last week of April were "a bid to force Iraqâs neighbors to submit to their Iraq policy, the U.S. and the Zionist regimes orchestrated such terrorist attacks." He noted, "This is not the first time that the U.S. and Israel have employed al Qaeda elements to help them reinforce their terrorist objectives." Amerikans 4, Jooos 5
And, the No 1 Stupid Arab Conspiracy Theory
[insert drum roll here]
1. After the bombing in Yunbu, Saudi Arabia, on May 1, Crown Prince Abdullah stated: "Zionism is behind terrorist actions in the kingdom. I can say that I am 95 percent sure of that." Amerkans 4, Jooos 6
Posted by: .com ||
05/07/2004 3:34:00 AM ||
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#4
Final scorecard: The muslims are big fat zeroes.
Posted by: ed ||
05/07/2004 4:14 Comments ||
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"Zionism is behind terrorist actions in the kingdom. I can say that I am 95 percent sure of that." .. otherwise its those bastard Somoans.
Posted by: Super Hose ||
05/07/2004 4:28 Comments ||
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Okay, it's pretty easy to laugh at this stuff - it's self-satirizing.
OTOH, we have a real problem here. We can say it's their problem, but clearly it has spilled over to affect us & it's going to take a generation to change this.
Take: a pride/shame culture
Add: the humiliation of being outside the Core (economic / political / social / intellectual influence)
Also add: the ability to leverage Western technology for destruction
Equals: a long 15-20 yrs during which we need to use all our assets - military, but also economic, diplomatic and intellectual - both to fight the terror and also to insist that these societies join the modern world. I don't care how they do it, so long as they do it peacefully and more or less democratically.
Arabs and other Muslims aren't, on average, any stupider than Americans. They are, however, stuck in ignorance (for many) and cognitive dissonance (pretty much all of them, so far as I can tell).
Arab culture once was cosmopolitan, diverse and tolerant -- apart from the bit about conquering all unbelievers etc etc. Seriously, it's worth remembering that they weren't always cut off from the world, from intellectual exploration etc. We need to get them back as productive members of the world.
In the meanwhile, I'll keep on educating future Army officers and doing research on techie stuff that helps homeland defense .....
#7
Delusional thinking such as conspiracy theorizing and death cultism lead to extinction. They are anti-survival traits indicating that evolution has bypassed this species.
#9
Try to figure out the difference between this and what "Gentle" was peddling here last week. And Antisemite called the board "prejudiced." Gosh how I miss those days.
#10
I read in Jim Dunnigan's book Dirty Little Secrets that the Soviet tanks used by Arab countries were not air-conditioned. As a result their tank crews were overcome with heat exhaustion in (summer) wars against Israel. This led to Arab theories about Zionist rays zapping the Arab soldiers! In the Arab mind effect has not met cause.
#14
What a baseball team -
The all-black-helicopter-all-stars
Starting Lineup :
Hafiz Muhammad Saeed, Pakistan, SS
Lead Editorialist, Yemen Times, Yemen, 2B
Lead Reporter, Islamic Republic News Agency, Iran, CF
Professor Galal Amin, Egypt, RF
Adnan Zayid Al-Kazimi, Kuwait, LF
Said Al-Subki, Saudi Arabia, 3B
Abd Al-Wahhab Adas, Egypt, 1B
Walid Jumblatt, Lebanon (West Syria), C
Hossein Sheikholeslam, Iran, DH
Crown Prince Abdullah, Saudi Arabia, P, Team captain
Posted by: Steve from Relto ||
05/07/2004 11:58 Comments ||
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What a baseball team
Yep, the first to have a perfect season - 0-164. You can't teach someone the truth when they don't have a mind open enough to receive it. If their "religion" is perfect the way it was in the 7th century, then it cannot change - change would imdicate that there is something wrong with their religion. The Jewish faith is designed to grow and adapt as human culture grows and adapts. Islam is static. Christianity, which is a subset of Judiasm, went through its period of rigidity, known as the "dark ages". Islam is now entering its dark ages. At least during the Christian dark ages, the nutcases couldn't wipe out whole cities in a flash.
As the old Chinese curse says, we live in interesting times.
Posted by: Old Patriot ||
05/07/2004 13:07 Comments ||
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Islam is now entering its dark ages.
A quibble - Islam entered its dark ages centuries ago. Some of the bloody-mindedness and instability we're seeing could be response of reactionary (Salafist) elements to the start of their emergence from them. The challenge is to make sure the West supplies as few of the inevitable casualties of the process as possible.
#18
It looks like we're still safe. They still don't know about the Stargate, the dial-home device, the reverse-engineered death gliders, or the Prometheus.
Posted by: Phil Fraering ||
05/07/2004 13:20 Comments ||
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#19
Hey, if the Americans had been involved in any of this, they would have taken pictures and emailed them to all their buddies in the States!
Posted by: John Simmins ||
05/07/2004 13:26 Comments ||
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#20
sound like they been talking to my brother in law.
#24
Okay. It's a classic, as much for the bezbol lineup as for the content...
Now I have this vision of Baghdad Bob hollering "Holy cow!" as Hafiz Saeed belts a sputtering black bomb into the stands...
Posted by: Fred ||
05/07/2004 16:51 Comments ||
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#25
"Holy Cow! Hafix Saeed did NOT just throw a bomb into the stands, and the bomb did NOT explode, killing dozens of spectators and baby ducks! It's all an American plot!"
Posted by: Phil Fraering ||
05/07/2004 17:26 Comments ||
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#26
argh! meant "Hafiz..."
Posted by: Phil Fraering ||
05/07/2004 17:31 Comments ||
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Following a consultation that took place between the Judge of the Shariâah Court of the UK, various Tulabut Iâlm (students of Shariâah) [Taliban] and members of Al-Muhajiroun, under the guidance and supervision of Sheikh Omar Bakri Muhammad ....
Nothing like an objective hearing, eh?
The letter sent out by representatives of the Muslim Council of Britain to Imams, Mosque leaders and Elders was prepared in reply to the arrest of a number of Muslims from around the United Kingdom by the British government. Within it are calls for the Muslims residing in Britain to give their âfullest co-operationâ with the British police forces against any Muslims and to report and spy upon your Muslims brothers to aid the British authorities. Despite these clear violations of the fundamental Islamic Belief, Aâqaid, the tenets of the Islamic Brotherhood and numerous clear-cut ayat from the Holy Qurâan, much of the Muslim Ummah residing in the UK has remained silent, unsure how to respond. For this reason, we have prepared this short letter detailing the Islamic stance on the matter. ....
Since the very beginning of time, Allah (swt) created two distinct entities, the camp of al-Haqq and that of al-Baatil. To each of the camps was assigned its followers and adherents; the believers to the camp of Haqq and the disbelievers and hypocrites to the camp of Baatil. .... In fact the very Shahadah ... necessitates that we .... we must keep our distance from the Tawagheet and ally ourselves with Allah (swt), the Messenger Muhammad (saw) and the Muslims alone. In Islam, as you know, this is known as Al-Walaâ Wal-Baraâ. The concept of Al-Walaâ Wal Baraâ ... provides the distinction between the camp of Emaan and the camp of Kufr. ... Therefore the Walaâ for the believers is to one another and there is no room for them to include the disbelievers (such as Tony Blair or his police) in this .... The Walaâ of the believers entails that certain Huqqoq are fulfilled between one another. ...
When one can fight and even die for his fellow Muslims, who are being pursued or for whom the Kuffar have evil plans, then at the very least, rather than handing them to the (kufr) police, Muslims must give refuge to any Muslim and protect him or her from all angles. This is ABC Islam, you do not need to be an aalim to know that the request of the MCB for Muslims to give the name of another Muslim to the police is totally unacceptable, a complete betrayal of ones brotherhood and an act of apostasy for these very reasons. .... This applies to the Siwaak, what about handing the Muslim himself to the Kuffar Police, or allowing the non-Muslim forces to raid ones home while his wife, sisters and daughters are uncovered, surely this is the greatest Ghadaar one could do. .... From the above ayat the position of the Muslim is very clear; the Muslim supports and allies with the Muslim whoever he may be and has hatred and enmity towards the disbelievers whoever they may be. ... We ask the Muslims not to spy on one another for the sake of the Kuffar nor for any other sake. ....
Posted by: Mike Sylwester ||
05/07/2004 12:14:24 AM ||
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#1
Huh!? Are rocks to be thrown or not, the post doesn't make clear. So many rocks, whats not to like?
#2
No mention of a sack full of fertiliser here, then. Once again OBM is guilty under the UK's incitement to racial hatred laws. Once again sweet fa is done. I'll have to have a stroll into the park at lunch to see if they're burning the flag again. Ho-hum.
Posted by: Howard UK ||
05/07/2004 5:49 Comments ||
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#3
Moderate Muslims Retaking Islam From Islamofascists Myth
#4
From the above ayat the position of the Muslim is very clear; the Muslim supports and allies with the Muslim whoever he may be and has hatred and enmity towards the disbelievers whoever they may be.
So WTF are all these idiots doing in the UK? After all, the UK is basically a nation of "disbelievers", isn't it? These twats need to get out and go home, and take their intolerant religion with them.
#7
Open obstruction or criticism of attempts by moderate Muslims to distance themselves from jihadist clerics and their followers should be an instant invitation for monitoring by the authorities.
EFL
The author of a disputed British intelligence dossier on Iraqi weapons of mass destruction that laid out the case for war was chosen Thursday to head Britainâs MI6 spy agency. I think this speak volumes. First, it shows that Blair is confident that the intelligence gathered prior to the war was sound and accurate. Second, this is reinforced by Bush keeping Tenet on at the CIA. In the long run the weapons will be found. They may surface in Syria, Iran, or in an attack against innocent civilians. But they will be found. Just a day ago, outside of Baltimore, live munitions were found in area that used to be a "construction site once used to tear apart decommissioned Navy ships." If the United States occasionally cannot account for all its munitions for decades then it seems resonable that finding WMDs that have been hidden by a miniacal dictator will surface.
Posted by: Dragon Fly ||
05/07/2004 8:25:30 AM ||
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Did a lead paint abatment job at Fort Huachuca,Az.
in the Buffalo soldiers old barracks.In the stables,wich were beneith the barracks we uncovered .303Enfield ammo that had been buried since WW1.
Ukrainian security forces seized nearly 375 pounds of a radioactive material seen as a likely ingredient for a "dirty bomb" and arrested three people, authorities said Thursday. In a joint action, Ukraine's police and state security agents seized two containers of cesium-137 and arrested three men from the southern city of Simferopol on the Crimean peninsula, police spokesman Yuriy Kondratyev told The Associated Press. An unspecified number of people were detained throughout Ukraine. Cesium-137 is considered a likely ingredient for a so-called "dirty bomb," in which conventional explosives are combined with radioactive material. It is used in soil-testing gauges in construction and is found in photoelectric batteries and vacuum valves. It explodes if it comes into contact with water, and exposure to it can cause blood diseases, sterility and birth defects.
Ah, that explains the Yemenis! Those damned mountains of cesium!
Police and state security agents acted on a tip-off that two buyers from the Ukrainian capital, Kiev, were ready to purchase cesium at an estimated price of $60,000 per container, Kondratyev said. Each container seized weighed more than 187 pounds, he said. Police declined to detail where the cesium was from or what roles the three suspects played in the case.
"We will say no more!"
Posted by: Steve White ||
05/07/2004 12:19:47 AM ||
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Dorothy was lucky that the witch wasn't make of cesium.
Posted by: Super Hose ||
05/07/2004 0:35 Comments ||
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I thought near-universal qat addiction explained the Yemenis...
Posted by: Mitch H. ||
05/07/2004 8:34 Comments ||
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I thought near-universal qat addiction explained the Yemenis...
Or maybe being in Yemen is reason enough to want to be stoned 24/7.
Posted by: Steve ||
05/07/2004 10:22 Comments ||
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The U.S. Treasury Department accused three Bosnian charities of funneling money to al-Qaeda and froze their assets. ``Today's action continues the international drumbeat to expose the terrorist nodes used to support the infrastructure of hate,'' Juan Zarate, the Treasury Department's Deputy Assistant Secretary for the Executive Office of Terrorist Financing and Financial Crimes, said in a statement. The charities designated today were Al Furqan, the Al- Haramain & Al Masjed Al-Aqsa Charitable Foundation, and Taibah International-Bosnia branch. The assets of each that exist in the U.S. have now been frozen and the Treasury asked the United Nations to request its member countries do the same.
Gee, golly. And it's only been three years...
Posted by: Dan Darling ||
05/07/2004 12:03:50 AM ||
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Hat tip LGF
THIS WEEK the Council on American-Islamic Relations released its annual report "The Status of Muslim Civil Rights in the United States 2004." Newspapers (the Washington Post in particular) dutifully gave prominent play to CAIRâs claim that hate crimes against Muslims increased 70 percent in 2003. Little skepticism, however, was applied to CAIRâs shoddy information-gathering or its politicized interpretation of the "data." According to CAIR, George W. Bushâs war rhetoric is to blame for the "increase" in hate crimes. But ours is not a society in which hatred and bias begin at the top and trickle down into criminal acts committed by ordinary citizens. And CAIRâs report, along with the way it has been received, proves it. We live in a society of singular, hair-trigger sensitivity to slight, and CAIR is situated at the wacky, exteroceptors end of such interaction. Long before a painful stimulus registers in the reasoning parts of the brain, this hysterical organization screams bloody bias. Harp stings breaking at CAIR
Media credulousness is perhaps the strongest evidence that American society is wallowing in gentleness. When someone claims to have been wounded, journalists (the great Victorian Gentleman in Tom Wolfeâs classic formulation) donât question the witness. Even when the witness clearly has an axe to grind, as CAIR does. Yet common sense begs us to look askance at the evidence gathered by CAIR, which relies entirely on self-reporting. CAIRâs form for reporting an bias incident is available online. Although the instructions emphasize contacting the police first, and suggest enclosing official supporting documentation, itâs not even clear how one would do so. The annual report seldom references such documentation. Which is not surprising, given how CAIRâs information-gathering process works: If someone merely emails CAIR with a message to the effect that they were the victim of bias, another "hate crime" is tallied, no matter its seriousness or credibility. Even if itâs just "Jews making a continuous breathing noise"?
Itâs almost humorous what tiny offenses pass as worthy of complaint in the CAIR report. That a student at the University of Houston "saw flyers and posters with false and degrading statements about the Qurâan and the prophet Muhammad" is apparently a civil rights matter. That a College Republican at Roger Williams in Rhode Island wrote in a student publication that "a true Muslim is taught to slay infidels" is treated with similar gravity. CAIR=terror apologists.
Several of the reportâs examples of anti-Muslim rhetoric (the only prominent ones come from Dr. Laura and Paul Harvey, the latter of which was followed by an apology) hinge on whether or not Islam promotes killing. But this is even a subject of debate within Islam. Also, that the question should be taken up with some interest by outsiders is, again, neither a civil rights matter nor evidence of hatred or bias. The issue is merely relevant to why al Qaeda and other Islamofacist organizations are at war with the United States. And, to put it tamely, it does not speak well of CAIR (or its purported constituents) that the organization does its level-best to close off such discussions. CAIR beauzeaux remind me of the gay-rights crowd; out to ban dissent as hate speech.
None of the press coverage on CAIRâs report gives readers a sense of its patchwork quality. Although undermining the USA Patriot Act is the most important item on CAIRâs agenda, the report dismisses the legislation in about four paragraphs giving a distorted picture of controversial Section 215. Nor do the authors note when their evidence contradicts their thesis of increasing bias and decreasing vigilance against bias: In the same section where its truncated discussion of the Patriot Act appears, the CAIR report discusses two cases of government bias in which the rights of Muslims were loudly and effectively defended. In one, the right of a Philadelphia police officer to wear her hijab to work was successfully defended by the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission. In the other case, a judge was forced to apologize and resign for suggesting a Muslim appearing in his court was a terrorist. The reportâs appendix, too, contains another such story in which a Muslim county employee was allowed to keep his job even though his Friday prayer obligations kept him out of the office all afternoon. The situation was resolved; the employee doesnât need to be in the office and, it seems, doesnât need to make up the hours. "Iâm really pleased with result," the employee told a California paper. "They [the county] treated me with a lot of respect."
NOWHERE does the reportâs lack of rigorousness show more clearly than in the section titled "Sample Cases." "On February 28th," reads the very first item listed as a hate crime, "two unknown males assaulted a Muslim student at Georgia Tech in Atlanta at night. The attackers beat him for no apparent reason and did not attempt to rob him." Which means there is "no apparent reason" to call it a hate crime. Under the same heading are listed several instances of minor vandalism, broken windows, graffiti, a defaced "Iraqi display case" at the University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee Muslim Students Association. Quite a number of the sample cases produced by CAIR represent the kind of awkward but individually insignificant difficulties the arise from the meeting of different cultures in a pluralistic society. That a Muslim student is asked to remove her hijab for her school identification photo is not proof of discrimination; itâs proof that our society hasnât figured out what to do about hijabs in official identification photos. Molehills become mountains in many other cases reported by CAIR, as when Muslim airline passengers singled out for security inspection claim, ipso facto, that theyâre victims of profiling. Meanwhile, the early birds are complaining that worms are profiling them and singling them out for investigation.
Finally, some of CAIRâs complaints donât even pass the laugh test: "A mother called CAIR California to report that on March 14th a school coach barred her daughter from participation in the badminton team because she wears a hijab." Never mind the sourcing problem--it doesnât take great powers of imagination to foresee "hijab" problems cropping up in high school sports programs. The most unintentionally funny--and weirdly sad--incident in the entire report is contained in a Newsday article included in the appendix: "A Muslim woman shopping in a Brooklyn toy store was assaulted by a man who slurred Arabs and flung a Mr. Potato Head at her, police said yesterday. The suspectâs father later said his son apparently acted out of grief because a friend in Israel had been killed by a suicide bomber in Israel." Despite itself, the CAIR report does seem to have happened onto some serious instances of bias crime, but they clearly represent only a small portion of what CAIR describes as increasing anti-Muslim activity. So until CAIR can distinguish between real crimes and flying Mr. Potato-heads, it would be best if their work were dismissed as the cheap agitprop it clearly is.
Posted by: Steve from Relto ||
05/07/2004 10:37:43 AM ||
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get a copy of CAIR's supporters for when the next Islamic attack occurs on American soil. We'd like to discuss things with each and every one of them afterwards
Posted by: Frank G ||
05/07/2004 11:49 Comments ||
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Careful Frank, the secret service does not take kindly to 'threats' against Presidental Canidates (even if its Skerry... who fully supports his masters at CAIR and calls Secret Service agents 'SOB's....)
Posted by: Frank G ||
05/07/2004 13:04 Comments ||
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#4
CAIR's whining reminds of the psychologist explaining to his patient, "Mr Jones , I have good news for you. You're not paranoid after all. People really are out to get you."
It's just a matter of time before Al Qaeda tries to attack Canadian targets, the head of Canada's spy agency said Thursday as he warned against complacency. Ward Elcock, director of the Canadian Security Intelligence Service, told MPs at a Commons committee meeting that Canada is not immune to terrorism. "As Al Qaeda directly threatened Canadians twice in as many years, the last time only a month ago, it is therefore safe to assume that it is no longer a question of if, but rather of when or where, we will be specifically targeted," said Elcock, whose term with the spy agency ends this month.
Public Security Minister Anne McLellan wouldn't go as far as Elcock, but said attacks were possible. "I'm not sure that I would say it's inevitable," said McLellan. "I can reassure Canadians that we are not the target of any direct or specific threat at this time."
"No, no! They'd certainly never want to hurt us!"
But John Thompson, a security expert with the Mackenzie Institute, said Elcock's assessment was fair. "Of all the nations Al Qaeda has attacked since 9/11, Canada is the only nation that Osama bin Laden has specifically mentioned that they haven't tried an attack on yet," he told CBC-TV's the National.
Elcock told the committee Thursday that many more Canadian agents are involved in covert operations overseas. But Thompson said most of those operations simply involve touching base with other intelligence networks. "Don't think that we're doing cloak-and-dagger operations overseas or that there are members of CSIS who are skulking around cloak-and-dagger style in Europe," he said. "They're talking to their confederates and they're talking to open sources in Iraq and when they're talking to them they leave their business cards behind."
Posted by: Dan Darling ||
05/07/2004 12:04:50 AM ||
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Canadian MP's will ask for pre-emptive capitulation, no doubt
Posted by: Frank G ||
05/07/2004 8:34 Comments ||
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Maybe they can get Dick Neville and his loony friends to help 'em out...
Constituent writes to Congresman Fortney "Pete" Stark
Dear Mr. Stark,
I am appalled that you voted against todayâs House Resolution 627, Roll Number 150. This measure would have shown publicly that you condemn the abuse of the prisoners in Iraq while simultaneously commend the service of the fine men and women who are serving in Iraq that bring honor to the uniform that they wear and to the Nation that they serve.
There are many Soldiers, Sailors, Marines, Airmen and Coastguardmen from your 13th Congressional District who are serving with pride and distinction . These men and women bring great credit upon their hometowns and the State of California.
Your "NO" vote is an indication that you do not support the troops who selflessly serve our nation and in many cases have given the ultimate sacrifice so that you might have the freedom that you enjoy as a citizen of this great Nation. Further, your "NO" vote on this resolution is a disgrace to the people of this district who have elected you.
I urge you to stop your contemptuous display of bitter partisanship and your politicization of this War. Your actions are very divisive and destructive to the morale of our troops and the morale of our nation. I know that a majority of the population of the 13th Congressional District are very strong in their support of our soldiers and in their support of the War in iraq. Your "NO" vote today reflects that you are way out of touch with the people of this district.
Very Sincerely,
Daniel L. Dow
Learned Congressman replies to Constituent in voice mail after receiving fax of letter
Dan,
This is congressman Pete Stark and I just got your fax. I just donât know what youâre talking about. So if you care about enlisted people, you wouldnât have voted for that thing either. But probably somebody put you up to this and Iâm not sure who it was. But I doubt if you could spell half the words in your letter and somebody wrote it for you. So I donât pay much attention to it but Iâll call you back later and let you tell me more about why you think youâre such a great G-ddamn hero and why you think that this General and the Defence Department who forced these poor enlisted guys to do what they did shouldnât be held to account, thatâs the issue. So, if you want to stick it to a bunch of enlisted guys, have your way. But if you want to get to the bottom of the people who forced this awful program in Iraq, then you should understand more about it than you obviously do. Thanks.
Recording of Fortneyâs message at link. Transcribed by me, so errors are mine.
I lived in this clownâs district and saw him speak on several occasions. This is a step up for him from what I heard in person. Sometimes I wonder whether people realize what wackos they have managed to ensconse in lifetime peerages in the House and Senate. Your tax dollars at work.
Posted by: Mr. Davis ||
05/07/2004 11:58:30 AM ||
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Classy people, these liberal Democrats in Congress are, I tell ya, classy people!
Posted by: Mike ||
05/07/2004 12:14 Comments ||
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What do you expect from a person named Fortney?
Thank God I have "Surfin'"(See website) Dana Rohrabacher as my rep. . .
#5
Here's the resolution. It is pretty much as described in the second sentence of Dow's letter.
Posted by: Mr. Davis ||
05/07/2004 13:22 Comments ||
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#6
I heard Stark's voice mail response on the radio last night. This guy is a total asshole. A nasty, arrogant bully who has a long history of behavior like this.
#7
They were hammering Stark on KSFO (Bay Area) this morning. What a jackass.
Posted by: remote man ||
05/07/2004 13:34 Comments ||
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#8
Limbaugh played Stark's delightful message.
Question #1: How many Democrats will criticize the creep?
Question #2: Any bets he'll face a primary challenger or have party support pulled from his next re-election campaign?
Posted by: Robert Crawford ||
05/07/2004 14:30 Comments ||
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I'll take any bettors on Stark. RMcLeod has it right. Stark's district is next to Barbara Lee's and Stalin would win there if he had the D next to his name.
Posted by: Mr. Davis ||
05/07/2004 16:11 Comments ||
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Any bets he'll face a primary challenger or have party support pulled from his next re-election campaign?
#11
But I doubt if you could spell half the words in your letter and somebody wrote it for you.
Had Stark been drinking before he called?
Posted by: Super Hose ||
05/07/2004 16:55 Comments ||
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#12
That's what they were asking on KSFO. I guess they were in a charitable mood.
Posted by: Mr. Davis ||
05/07/2004 16:57 Comments ||
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#13
I believe I may have the answer. There was a Dan Dow, Korean linguist, ex Army Sgt., who ran for State Assembly in (or maybe near) Stark's Congressional district. So maybe there were, as they say, "other issues" between the two of them. Dow's a Republican (information which is kinda hard to find on that page, keep clicking until you get to "endorsements").
Thanks. That explains why he got a phone call, I was wondering. Doesn't make "Pete" any less of a dork, though.
Posted by: Mr. Davis ||
05/07/2004 19:02 Comments ||
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Mr. Davis,
I hope you don't mind but I stole your transcript for use here. I was transcribing myself but you beat me to it.
Posted by: Ken Summers ||
05/07/2004 19:04 Comments ||
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#16
Stalin would win there if he had the D next to his name.
Hell, there are LOTS of places in the US you can say that about.
Posted by: Robert Crawford ||
05/07/2004 19:39 Comments ||
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#17
Dan Dow has now replied in a comment to the post Ken links in #15:
Yes, I ran for State Assembly in 2002...against a multi-millionaire developer John Dutra. Pete Stark is not "aware" enough to have noticed. I have met Stark on occasion, but I don't think that he would have left that message if he had known that I had run for office and might release his voicemail. I am not currently running for office and I have no plans to do so in the near future...
You're absolutely right that I didn't mention that I had been deployed or anything like that. This is not about me. I am merely a concerned citizen who wanted to contact my "Representative". I am no hero. And I would never claim to be.
RTWT.
Posted by: Old Grouch ||
05/07/2004 21:43 Comments ||
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The Justice Department is ready to prosecute any civilians or former military personnel suspected of criminal conduct in the abuse of Iraqi prisoners, Attorney General John Ashcroft said Thursday. At a news conference, Ashcroft would not confirm whether the Defense Department or CIA had formally referred any individual cases to federal prosecutors for potential charges. But he said there is ample jurisdiction to move against civilian contractors and others, including laws that forbid torture. "We will follow evidence and act in accordance with evidence," Ashcroft said. "We will take action where appropriate."
The primary legal framework that would be used is the Military Extraterritorial Jurisdiction Act, passed by Congress in 2000 to permit prosecution of federal crimes committed by civilians attached to military personnel in foreign countries when those countries do not prosecute or, as in the case of Iraq, where there is no formal judicial system. Ashcroft said prosecutors would await the results of a Defense Department investigation into alleged abuses at Iraq's Abu Ghraib prison. Under normal practice, federal agencies refer potential criminal cases not involving military personnel to the Justice Department. The CIA inspector general is investigating three prisoner deaths that may have involved its officers or contract personnel, intelligence officials have said. If any criminal cases involve undercover personnel, Ashcroft said, their identities would be protected if circumstances warrant. "Considerations would be given to their identities and identification that is consistent with the national interest," Ashcroft said.
Posted by: Steve White ||
05/07/2004 12:10:54 AM ||
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The perpetrators should demand to be tried in the World Court - I hear that several suites are still open in the penitentiary where they hold convicted "war criminals." They will probably have child care services for that one pregnant lady. She may need to visit the prison pool hall or the tattoo parlor and thatâs no place for kids.
Posted by: Super Hose ||
05/07/2004 0:39 Comments ||
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"May"?
Posted by: Mitch H. ||
05/07/2004 8:32 Comments ||
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President Bush, struggling to control a growing crisis, apologized Thursday for the abuse of Iraqi prisoners by American soldiers and called it "a stain on our country's honor." He rejected calls for Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld's resignation but complained about Rumsfeld's handling of the controversy. "He'll stay in my Cabinet," Bush declared, a day after White House officials spread word that the president was upset at the secretary for not alerting him about damaging pictures. Some Republicans on Capitol Hill privately questioned whether Rumsfeld could survive and were angry that he had not shared information with them.
I think he'll survive. I don't think the public associates him with this incident, only the Dems in Congress, who think they smell blood in the water...
Sen. Tom Harkin of Iowa stepped forward to call for Rumsfeld's head. House Democratic Leader Nancy Pelosi and other Democrats joined in. "For the good of our country, the safety of our troops, and our image around the globe Secretary Rumsfeld should resign," Harkin said. "If he does not resign forthwith, the president should fire him." Democratic presidential candidate John Kerry also pushed for Rumsfeld's ouster. "It's the way it was handled," Kerry said. "The lack of information to the Congress, the lack of information to the country, not managing it, not dealing with it, recognizing it as an issue."
Other than ensuring that the Army did its job which it did from December to now, you mean.
Usually loath to acknowledge mistakes or to apologize, Bush spoke up in the Rose Garden after meeting with Jordan's King Abdullah II. "I told him I was sorry for the humiliation suffered by the Iraqi prisoners and the humiliation suffered by their families," the president said. "I told him I was equally sorry that people who have been seeing those pictures didn't understand the true nature and heart of America. I assured him Americans like me didn't appreciate what we saw, that it made us sick to our stomachs." Bush promised anew that "we'll find out the truth. We'll take a good look at the whole system to determine - to make sure that this doesn't happened again." Struggling for words, he said, "But I am - I am - I am sickened by what I saw and sickened that somebody gets the wrong impression of people who are serving this country and this world with such dignity."
Bush readily acknowledged that America's reputation had been damaged. "It's a stain on our country's honor and our country's reputation. I fully understand that. And that's why it's important that justice be done." Rumsfeld canceled a planned speaking engagement in Philadelphia so he could huddle in the Pentagon with top aides to prepare to testify Friday before Senate and House committees. Gen. Richard Myers, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, returned early from a European trip to get ready for the appearance with Rumsfeld. Sen. Evan Bayh, D-Ind., an Armed Services Committee member, reserved judgment about Rumsfeld until the hearing. Calling for the resignation now "reminds me of what they said in the old West - first they give the accused a fair hearing and then they hang him," Bayh said. "I want to wait and see what he has to say." Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz., said it was premature to talk about Rumsfeld's resigning. "We need everybody to just take a deep breath and get all the facts," he said. Sen. John Warner, R-Va., chairman of the Armed Services Committee, said that "at this point in time I do not have any loss of confidence in Secretary Rumsfeld." Bush said Rumsfeld "is a really good secretary of defense. Secretary Rumsfeld has served our nation well. Secretary Rumsfeld has been the secretary during two wars. He's an important part of my Cabinet and he'll stay in my Cabinet."
Rummy's testimony today will be the big deal. If he delivers he stays.
Posted by: Steve White ||
05/07/2004 12:06:06 AM ||
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This must be the most controversy of a cabinet member since Andrew Johnson's presidency. It is ludicrous to cash the civilian leader of the DOD for the conduct to low level clowns unless their actions are a symptom of problems all the way up the chain-of-command. Rumsfeld should be proud; that the hacks should come after him for this incident shows just how much they fear his effectiveness.
Posted by: Super Hose ||
05/07/2004 3:32 Comments ||
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The Wall Street Journal has it exactly right: if Bush abandons Rumsfeld, his base stops believing in him and the election is over.
Excellent editorial, btw, and I agree with it 100% on where we are.
#3
I predict (again) that if the Dems and their Media enablers keep up this hue and cry (Rangel is preparing articles of impeachment? What a scumbag) that it will bite them in the ass - as long as W stays strong and consistent...no more idiot leaks that he dressed Rumsfeld down over the photos! Stand by your men W!
Posted by: Frank G ||
05/07/2004 8:41 Comments ||
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Bush has been faulted for being too loyal to his people (like Mineta, O'Neill). Let's hope that he doesn't overcompensate by getting rid of Rumsfeld who is clearly one of the best in the Cabinet. Agree with #2 - dumping Rumsfeld would kill Bush in the election.
#5
Democratic presidential candidate John Kerry also pushed for Rumsfeld's ouster. "It's the way it was handled," Kerry said. "The lack of information to the Congress, the lack of information to the country, not managing it, not dealing with it, recognizing it as an issue."
The 'way it was handled' means that Kerry was not allowed to look like an internationalist by dragging this issue and the participants further through the mud than is necessary.
'Lack of information to the congress' So now congress needs information of what amounts to a minor incident instead of letting the military take care of matters, which it has already. Can not congress et al see this was an issue of loss of control of troops, a serious matter to be sure especially when it occurs in a war zone, but not a matter of civilian policy?
'Lack of information to the country' You got gay porn out of it for your supporters, what more do you want: license it to Miramax? Tristar? Or is Kerry sad his allies in the POW ranks were humiliated?
'Not managing it' So now Kerry is a manager. Tell me, John, when was the last time you risked your money and your reputation running a business, met a payroll, negotiated a deal, dealt with suppliers... Cookies don't count.
'Not dealing with it' The military is gonna love you if by some freak of nature you win in 2004. The army is still going through its investigative process and all you can drone on about it no one is dealing with it.
'Not recognizing it as an issue' That is the 'money quote' Bush won't make it an issue because the army is taking care of the matter. (I.E. he is managing it) His opponents are making it an issue, and when Rumsfeld gets done testifying, there won't be an unchewed ass in the committee room; not Rumsfeld's, just about every political opponent that sit on the committee.
Sorry, John, that your pals in the old Iraqi army got treated badly, but no pain was involved. Just some gay pr0n for your constituancy. Sucks to be them.
#7
Rummys history. We lose "hearts and minds" in Iraq, and the whole thing goes down the tubes - best we can hope for is an authoritarian leader appointed by Lakthar Brahimi. As it is we seem to be leaning over for Brahimi, and now for the PA too, largely cause of this screw up. Gotta sacrifice someone, and Rummy is the obvious candidate. You lose the Iraq thing and you lose the election anyway. If Rummy were POTUS, and Dubya were SecDef, Rummy would ditch Dubya. Question is who they put in place, and do Wolfie and Feith go too. I certainly hope they stay, and that the new SecDef is not a Powell crony.
#8
LH: Rummy is one of the most competent Sec Def's in the nation's history. Bush is not stupid enough to let him go just because a bunch of traitorous Democrat asshole's are bloviating for the camera. Ain't gonna happen. If it does Bush is toast. But he and Rove know that so it won't happen.
Posted by: remote man ||
05/07/2004 13:10 Comments ||
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1. Rummys management of Afghanistan was masterful, and he has been good in the general WOT.
2. He was very good wrt to the conventional campaign in Iraq
3. It is at this point not possible to say if a better strategy could have been developed for the occupation, and if so, whether rummy (as opposed to State) is responsible for not implenting it.
All in all, Id agree that in the ideal world we'd keep Rummy.
But we dont live in the ideal world. And the Dems are NOT the principle problem with keeping him. The muslims are. Rummy is good, but hes NOT indispensable. The US political position in Iraq and across the muslim world is in jeopardy. The tradeoff may be necessary, even IF (as I dont yet know) Rummy is squeaky clean on Abu Ghraib.
Now before someone responds, I'll freely admit that if you think the hearts and minds game in Iraq and the whole muslim world is of trivial significance,or is to be won purely be being "the strong horse" then the above logic is incorrect. But Rummy himself HAS played the hearts and minds game. So I repeat, if Rummy were POTUS, and Dubya were SecDef, in similar circumstances, Dubya would be gone. For purely strategic reasons.
#10
LH - I would offer that, regards politics, to sacrifice Rummy would be suicide - imagine the screeching. In other words, it would backfire and merely encourage even more screeching, assuming that's possible. If Bush thinks Rummy is a good SecDef, then he should keep him on the job. To can him is to give a "victory" to people who don't care one whit about the Wot, Afghanistan, or Iraq - they only care about games, political games... and TV "face" time. Just my 2 cents.
#11
...What I find interesting is a comparison with an incident (actually a eries of incidents) in the late 90s involving a USAF fighter unit that was deployed to Soddy for Operation Southern Watch.
Among other things, this unit's personnel were involved in:
*Were making their own moonshine
*Outrageous fraternization and sexual activity between unit members
*"Losing" an AGM-65 Maverick missile (I've heard two stories on this, neither one complimentary)
*Allowed their aircraft to become almost completely non-operational, and
*Engaged in what can only be described as a drunken orgy on the aircraft back, resulting in USAF Security Police being called aboard the plane when they arrived in Europe for refueling.
The entire squadron staff lost their jobs when they got back, and there were dozens of Article 15 hearings. The unit was effectively non-combat ready for months afterwards.
There were no calls for the heads of then-SecDef Cohen or CJCS GEN Shelton, no demands for congressional hearings, no breast-beating about the deplorable actions of our troops.
Consider when this happened...and then I will leave it to Rantburg to decide why you never heard of this before.
Mike
Posted by: Mike Kozlowski ||
05/07/2004 14:17 Comments ||
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Gotta sacrifice someone, and Rummy is the obvious candidate. LH, no frigginâ way! Look, I was in there at the start saying weâve got to deal with the prisoner abuse issue head-on, fully and transparently, and that [the perpetratorsâ] heads should roll -- whether the fault was due to acts of commission or acts of omission. I advocated this approach (which, IMO, the application of the UCMJ by the command structure is already pursuing) because of principles of attribution theory, and expectations we developed when we set out to liberate Iraq. BUT WEâVE DONE ALL THAT! President Bush, Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld, and all the generals that matter, have already taken the appropriate approach and expressed the appropriate sentiments. They have been thoughtful and have showed great statesmanship -- especially the C-I-C. No one should be sacrificed: thatâs un-American, and unneeded. The âArab Streetâ gets it, I just wish the Dimmy Wits would, too. An excerpt from Arab comments collected at IRAQ THE MODEL blogspot:
here we have the president of the greatest nation on earth apologizes for what a small group of pervert soldiers did. And here, the American press proves that it's free to show the truth. We lived with similar pictures for years until they became the basics of every prison's daily life and we never heard an Arabic paper point them out. These are lessons from the western culture entering the hearts of Arabs, whether the Arab leaders liked or not.
#13
er mike, cause millions of people from Morocco to Indonesia didnt give a damn that USAF folks were getting drunk, screwing each other, or losing missiles. Thats the difference.
Sec State Powell says this has badly hurt the US image and has made his job harder. How much of that is true, and how much is Powell seizing the opportunity to push Rummy out, I wonder? In either case its clear Rummy is crippled. Which is worse Rummy gone, or Rummy walking on eggshells around Powell and the service chiefs? Better a new (HAWKISH) Sec Def whos not implicated in any of this. Any names? McCain is all I can think of, and dont expect that to happen.
#14
Leave Sec. Rumsfeld alone!
What's hurting the US and its prosecution of the war is all this whining!
This problem was/is being taken care of.
President Bush apologizing and announcing that he was aware of and taking care of the problem should have been the end of it, but nooooooooo....
No real torture took place.
Just because these Arabs are from a male-dominated shame culture that doesn't like men to be naked around women who are dominating them while smoking a cigarette is no reason to lose the war because we're "sorry."
While the Enemy represents regimes whose prisons think nothing of real torture, abuse and murder and are never, NEVER held to account.
The world has never held the Japanese accountable for the horrible suffering they inflicted on POWs during WWII.
Ask the men who were in the Bataan Death March if you need help.
This is about the bad guys being "revolted" by powerful and empowered WOMEN.
Suck it up, boys!
Posted by: Jen ||
05/07/2004 14:38 Comments ||
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Cingold - look i love Iraqthemodel, and think guys like him are the future of Iraq, and of the whole muslim world, G-d willing. But I dont think he represents the average Iraqi ( a far bigger chunk than the media imply, but still not the average) and EVEN if he did, we still have the rest of the arab and muslim world to worry about (distinctly more problematic than the population of Iraq, I still think) Im afraid I dont think the Arab street gets it, especially as you go to people who never lived under Saddam, and who get their views from Al Jazeera.
Now Im not saying we should A. Walk out on Iraq or B. Do anything else substantive
to pander to the arab street. But sacrificing somebody for the good of the United States is possible. Weve had lots of Sec Defs, Sec States, etc. In a Republic no one is indispensable.
As for not the American way? I'm not talking about putting Rummy in jail. Im talking about firing him from his job. When your presence in a job detracts from the organizations mission, youre OUT, whether you yourself did anything wrong or NOT. Thats capitalism, man. And War for that matter. This makes you queasy? Well war is hell. Welcome to it.
I dont think Wolfie or Feith could become Sec Def. I dont think ANY Jew can become Sec Def, Sec State, or NSA at this stage in the WOT. Its not the American way, and it sucks(from my personal viewpoint), but its inevitable. War is hell.
Do you really think losing Rummy means losing the war?? What if he gets hit by a car? Do we all ask the French for advice on how to surrender? No individual is indispensable.
Japan - ISTR we did hang Tojo, but not too many other Japanese. Cause we were OCCUPYING Japan. And quite successfully, ultimately. In contrast to say the Japanese occupation of China.
Just being better than whats common in the arab world is NOT enough. Ask the Israelis. We're the outsiders, and the whole rationale for staying in Iraq is to make it a democracy. We HAVE to be almost PERFECT. We can get away with blowing up a mosque that has fighters in it. We can get away with demolishing houses, and bombing cities. We can get away with a lot. But not this. And if you dont like that they have a psychological thing about women, maybe we should have occupied someplace where they didnt have such neuroses. Of course such other place wouldnt have done us much good strategically.
Look im open to someone else being tossed over the side, too bad it wasnt CIA instead of military, since then we could lose Tenet, and keep Rummy.
#17
Liberalhawk, you guys on the Left would *love* to get rid of Rummy for any reason or no reason!
I don't think these prison guards did Jack Squat--I've heard of college fraternity initiations that were far worse!
It's certainly no reason to get rid of Rummy--for something that's being handled through proper channels while he's in D.C. prosecuting the War.
I want Rumsfeld heading up the War and no-one else!
John McCain is crazy, but I chalk it up to his being really tortured in that North Vietnamese prison!
Posted by: Jen ||
05/07/2004 14:55 Comments ||
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#18
You don't fire Rumsfeld for this kind of thing -- he's doing all the competent things. The Arabs aren't idiots, and I think they see and understand far more than they let on -- even with the spin on Al Jazeera. That's why they are working with us in Najaf to get rid of Sadr, and that's why they are working with us in Fallujah to get rid of the foreign fighters and other lunatics. Change takes time, but we are moving at a record pace. Keeping Rumsfeld, while using the UCMJ to make heads roll is the proper example, and it will be effective. Firing Rumsfeld would simply show that our government is just as arbitrary and capricious as what theyâre used to. Rule of Law, Rule of Law, thatâs what theyâve got to see -- and I believe they are "getting it."
#19
Jen - i like Rummy very much. Much more so than Powell or Tenet, BTW. Not as much as Wolfie, but I really do like Rummy. If I could figure out a way to make Powell the scapegoat I would. Or Carl Levin, for that matter. But I cant
CG - You can fire him for any reason you want. Since when do cabinet secretaries have civil service or union protections. Rule of Law in the private sector is "employment at will" and that applies to cabinet rank govt employees as well (well to several thousand political appointees as a matter of fact) Bush can fire Rummy ACCORDING TO THE LAW if he doesnt like the way Rummy combs his hair.
And again Iraq is NOT the entire arab world, and the entire arab world matters. And in Fallujah i think theyre working with us cause they dont want their houses blown up, and I dont know for sure that this is NOT hurting us with the Sunni arab population in Iraq.
#20
This is helping us in the "Arab world."
Trust me! Word on the "Arab street" is that the average jihadi would rather die a thousand deaths than be naked in front of a lady guard who's making fun of his small penis!
Remember Mohammed Atta's will?
He didn't even want women at his funeral!
Things are so bad for the Enemy that Osama's having to offer them gold!
And why does there have to be a "scapegoat" other than Corp. English and Gen. Karpinsky?
Rummy is running a Fine War.
I want to keep that up--I love him.
And right now, the USA is winning BIG TIME.
Posted by: Jen ||
05/07/2004 15:11 Comments ||
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#21
LH, ?????
I'm not saying Rummy's got an employment law case if he get's fired. That's obviously crazy.
What I am saying is that firing Rummy would send the wrong message to the world at large. The world at large needs to understand that we are governed by the Rule of Law, not the photo op, and we are not going to "sacrifice somebody" to try to please anybody. Firing Rummy would detract from the Rule of Law lesson, which the Iraqis are getting (IRAQ THE MODEL blogspot). This is a teachable moment, and time is best spent applying the Rule of Law -- not looking for trophies!
#23
LH: If you think that firing Rumsfeld is going to do anything in the Arab world except encourage our enemies you are off your meds. The only people who would benefit from Rummy's firing would be the Democrats. We don't fire the Sec Def over this crap. Now Cohen (I think he was the guy) should have been fired for refusing adequate air support in Somalia which lead to his troops getting killed. That was a fireable offense. Wretchard is right in his post today. We are going to look back at this before long and realize it was a joke compared to the real issues in this war. It is exposed, it is being dealt with, it will likely not reccur. Move along please.
Posted by: remote man ||
05/07/2004 15:22 Comments ||
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#24
RM - count me off my meds, then, cause i think it would stanch the bleeding. If it doesnt wed better come up with something else that will. If you think that applying due process to some mid level guys in military intell will stanch the bleeding, youve got more faith in the sense of the arab world than I do, and im said to be one of the optimists.
#25
I think you should change your name to Chicken Little rather than Liberal Hawk. WE HAD NO CRED ON THE ARAB STREET BEFORE THIS BUSINESS CAME TO LIGHT, so who cares. The sky is NOT falling. Firing Rumsfeld would do nothing to change the existing situation except to make fat Teddy feel more empowered.
Posted by: remote man ||
05/07/2004 15:29 Comments ||
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#26
The funny thing about attributions is that some of them are near universal constants (e.g., death is bad, food is good, friends are good . . .). What you see in the Arab comments translated at IRAQ THE MODEL blogspot could be expected, pursuant to attribution theory. Just as the attributions regarding the abuse would (at some unconscious, preverbal level) be something like, âIf you have led me to believe you are better than Saddam, then these pictures are all the more shocking, all the more disappointing, and I will all the more believe that all American soldiers are like this until you prove otherwise;â I think, now (given the efforts of Pres. Bushâs administration), the attributions are likely to be something like, âI have been told you are heartless monsters who abuse your power to please yourself, but here you are apologizing and promising to punish the guilty (when in my county might make right, and you are the most mighty of the mighty), and this is something I donât see from my own government -- maybe you are not that bad.â
#27
Geez, remote, i thought name calling like that was more common on the left.
I think we do still have some cred in the arab street.
In any case the administration thinks so. Why are they running around backing off their position on Palestine, or at least making an effort to make it look like they are? Why are we spending vast sums on broadcasting to the arab world? Cmon, all im asking for is consistency. If the Arab street is trivial, then the admin policy which to some extent focuses on it is wrong. And whats the point of having Iraq as a model if the model cant spread? Seems to be the whole grand strategy is predicated on the idea that WE DO have some street cred, and that it will grow as they see real democracy established in Iraq. I dont think Rummy would disagree, and if he would, Id like to see the quotes.
#31
Libr'ulhawk, and that's as opposed to the marvelous Clinton education policy, which was nonexistent?
If you Dims could come up with something superior to NCLB, why didn't you?
And sKerry's plan is to *make* a million more American teens graduate from high school (whether they can read or not).
Great plan.
Posted by: Jen ||
05/07/2004 15:56 Comments ||
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#32
There must be something wrong with the Bush ed policy, since y'all dont like its key concept. Figured it out yet?
#34
Acrimony is all that comes to mind, at the moment â and Iâm not ascribing it to Bush.
Is anyone else here getting the disturbing feeling that this will seem silly and irrelevant very soon â a tempest in a teapot?
We have some serious delusional thinking present.. No, not LH â the hearings! Atomic Conspiracy predicted a level of civil strife was coming about a week ago - and his idea has already lost any sense of novelty or incredibility. It seems to me weâre only an incident away from a serious ugly and bloody confrontation between the screeching socialists and those who believe in American ideals. The current LLL mentality, bearing all of the hallmarks of the Salem Witch Trials and McCarthy Hearings, particularly in the level of hysteria, goes deeper and has more momentum than I thought. Silly me, I know.
#35
LH, what is this--Wheel of Fortune?!?
I don't have kids and if I did, I'd like to think they wouldn't go to public schools, so I only know the rudiments of NCLB.
I'll guess "Academy."
FOAD, LH. You're triangulating your issues with the Bush Administration.
Betcha what you really hate are the Faith-based Charities and the fact that President Bush is a vocal Christian.
You're just a garden variety, pedestrian Bush-hater.
Been there, seen that, got the T-shirt, got the mousepad.
Posted by: Jen ||
05/07/2004 16:06 Comments ||
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#36
The last liberal reflex to go is the urge to appease
During WW2, FDR and Churchill negotiated with Italian generals to get Italy out of the war, supported an anti-Semite collaborationist Vichyite, Darlan, as ruler of French North Africa, and of course worked side by side with the Soviet Union for four years.
You cant be pure in war. (kind of ironic in THIS debate). You dont appease your enemies, but you DO appease the neutrals. If you hate that kind of thing, you can pretend there ARE no neutrals, or at least no neutrals who want you to do anything you wouldnt have done anyway. I dont think thats the case now, but y'all are free to believe it anyway. I dont think Rummy or Bush do, though.
#40
Dotcom, wouldn't suprise me.
This whole "Iraqi abuse thing" is just another partisan witch hunt.
It's serving 3 purposes to the Left (at least):
1. To make the military look "systemically" corrupt and barbaric a la My Lai, Lt. Calley and sKerry's "baby killers" in Vietnam.
2. As an occasion to get rid of one of the Left's biggest enemies: Donald Rumsfeld, who's prosecuting a most successful war effort.
3. To put all of the (media) spotlight on the Bush Administration and taking care of this "scandal," so that they won't have to focus on what Vietnam Vets are saying about John Kerry--the dramatic and shocking press conference the other night on C-SPAN 2 by the Swift Boat Veterans against John Kerry went almost uncovered by the LLL press.
I think the real brawl will be in Boston this summer; the Dim convention may be as wild or wilder than Chicago 1968.
I'm buying popcorn.
The Dims just shoot themselves in the foot more with each and every one of these "scandals" and "outrages" that they manufacture.
They deserve to lose and LOSE BIG this November and forever after for putting our country through absolute SHIT like this and at a time when we are at war and members of our Armed Forces are being shot at and killed by the Enemy as this pathetic spectacle goes on here.
Posted by: Jen ||
05/07/2004 16:16 Comments ||
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#41
Gosh LH, the word you are looking for is "Accountability". So you are saying that by not firing Rumsfeld the Bush administration is not holding true to its ideals. That is crap and you know it. The investigation on this matter occurred in January. The information on the investigation was released to the press then as well and again in February. The perpetrators of these incidents are being investigated and will be punished. Sure sounds like accountability to me. If accountability means that Bush should jump when Teddy or Maxine Waters say jump then you can have it. Of course those individuals wouldn't know accountability if it bit them in the ass. If they did, Teddy would have a felony conviction and not be sitting in the Senate.
Posted by: remote man ||
05/07/2004 16:19 Comments ||
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#42
RM - under no child left behind, the school systems and priniciples are responsible for RESULTs - no saying it was the fault of the teachers, or the department heads. No saying - well I broke no rules. The results are bad, you face consequences. Thats what accountability means, in EDUCATION.
here we have a situation where a major fuck up happens, and where it would be IMO very useful internationally to fire Rummy, and everyone is running around squeamish about how unfair and unAmerican that would be, and how it would in some way conflict with the rule of law.
#43
Well, I would say that the education of children is a bit different than the prosecution of war, but maybe that's just me. Besides, the education establishment (overwhelmingly Democrat) has not produced acceptable results going back at least 35 years.
You want results, lets see, in 3 years two countries with a combined population of 50 million people have been freed from horrific regimes. Saddam and his spawn are either captured or dead. There has been huge progress in Iraq including progress on a constitution. The handover is coming in about 50 days. And we have not been attacked since 9/11.
Abu Ghraib is an incident, not a failure of the campaign. I appreciate that you think firing Rummy would be a great way to respond to this, but I think, and clearly most Rantburgers think that would be a horrible response to an incident. The last time I checked the Secretary of Education was not fired because of Columbine.
Posted by: remote man ||
05/07/2004 16:40 Comments ||
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#44
Liberalhawk, What piffle!
I don't see anyone NOT being accountable--in fact, that's why the Dimocrats (who are EVIL and on the side of the terrorists) are working it for everything it's worth!
They know that one of President Bush's biggest values is personal accountability and responsibility.
Having Rummy resign would accomplish nothing and for what?
Because he wasn't informed when a lady private farted in Iraq?
Typical Clintonista to love resignations....
How many of those did we witness during those 8 looooooonnnnnngggggg years of Beelzebubba?
I can't believe my President is having to spend his time on an incident involving a half-dozen military guards who *might* have gone over the line who are already being investigated and, if necessary, reprimanded by the Pentagon and who didn't do any physical harm to these Iraqi prisoners when we have 135,000 good and decent American soldiers who are in harm's way in that same country!
We are at war!
Get behind the troops and the President and his SecDef or move to Riyahd...or France.
Posted by: Jen ||
05/07/2004 16:41 Comments ||
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#45
This has been a very enlightening thread.
"The rule is perfect: in all matters of opinion our adversaries are insane."
-Mark Twain
Lol! Applicable to all of us, approximately equally, methinks. :^)
#46
Dotcom, I love ya, but I don't think it's a joking matter.
The Left is seriously trying to compromise the war effort with this whole mess and I am worried that they may succeed.
Posted by: Jen ||
05/07/2004 16:47 Comments ||
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#47
RM - and Douglas McArthur was brilliant at Inchon - but when it was time for him to go(over something totally different, of course) he went. We've accomplished alot during the occupation - but as far i can tell 90% of that has been by soldiers on the ground, INCLUDING much of the reconstruction and hearts and minds work. The actual work by the CPA has been a disaster. I mean if calling up ex-Iraqi generals is a good idea now, why want it last May? Why 135,000 troops instead of 150,000? Why not do more with local Iraqi elected bodies, instead of tribal sheiks and mullahs? Why on again off again de-baathification? Why on again and off again with the UN? Come on the occupation as far as the CPA is concerned has been incompetent. You DONT have to be a lefty of any kind to think that. Not Bushes fault, to be sure - but Bremer couldnt be fired, or anyone at Defense or State.
Oh I know, Bremer and even Powell wanted to be tougher about the UN and Debaathification, and all that, but Dan Rather and Ted Kennedy stopped them. Yeah, right. "I tried to get the test scores up, but the PTA wouldnt go along"
#48
Jen - Thx! I'm just offering the "agree to disagree" olive branch. I certainly think everyone has expounded their various positions pretty thoroughly here, including me. What else can be said - without future regret? Live well and prosper, heh. ;-)
#49
Dot com and i disagree on much, but i think we both realize that BOTH of us care very much about winning the war, and despair at policies that we think will lose it. We dont alway agree on what those policies ARE, but we both want to WIN, very badly.
If we LOSE I expect to be high on the Khalifats list for execution.
#51
LH: In your post #47, it seems that you are implying either Bremer or Powell should be fired because of the poor record of the CPA. We'll if you are looking for an argument, you've come to the wrong place. Again, I believe it is the hand of the State Department that is driving the CPA. I think the DoD is the one sane group in the bunch. At least they get outside the Green Zone on occasion. So your comment makes it all the more odd that you want Rummy fired.
Posted by: remote man ||
05/07/2004 17:04 Comments ||
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#52
LH, if you truly want to win this war then you'll SHUT UP, if you'll forgive me.
The resignation of Rumsfeld would accomplish nothing and would see one of the most successful prosecutors of an American war fall on his sword to satiate the absolution complex of Dimocrat political faux Puritanism.
The Dims aren't sorry we use our female soldiers' domination to subdue male chauvinist terrorists, they're just sorry for everything America stands for and that it isn't Communism.
The Clintoon Administration made sure we had lots of women in the military in combat positions and now, we've put them to effective use in the war theater and all you Dims can do is whine and complain and say that's not what they intended.
Why don't we have the Enemy address what they did to Jessica Lynch?
I read where she had to have a collostomy because of her "injuries."
Her whole body is forever messed up.
She had to call off her wedding--let's guess why.
She can barely walk.
Are you sure you want us to win this war?
Posted by: Jen ||
05/07/2004 17:09 Comments ||
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#53
Count me in as a dissenter, lh - youi can't win the argument, so you change the subject. Classic LLL technique. I'll bite anyway:
The Education Department was created as a sop to the NEA for supporting Jimmah Carter back in 1976, which helped greatly for him to win the election. No one in their right mind can argue that government public schools have gotten measurably better as a result; they've gotten much worse.
#54
Jen - Don't count out PFC Lynch so much. She appears to be quite a fighter. Although she is walking with a cane, she seems a whole lot better than those rescue pic from last year. I found a photo of her at last week's WH Correspondants dinner.
#55
Watching the Inquisition on the evening news, I could just see the entire military organization in Iraq that's in charge of prisoners freezing all interrogation activities that have any remote resemblance to psychological coercion, out of fear. Intel collection essentially frozen. How are we supposed to win a war with no interrogation?
#56
Also, as far as Jessica Lynch is concerned, she might have had to postpone her wedding (this is the first I've heard of that), but she and her boyfriend certainly haven't given up on each other. In fact, there was an item in today's Washington Post describing how Jessica begged off (with regrets) from a second chance to meet GWB (she'd already met him and Laura at the dinner) so that she could catch a plane in order to be in time for her boyfriend's birthday. The article said, in fact, it was Wolfie who conveyed the message to Jessica that it was OK for her to take off, while she was fretting about disappointing one or the other.
Posted by: Joe ||
05/07/2004 20:09 Comments ||
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#57
LH -- given that the military handled the investigation exactly as they should, why should anyone not involved in the abuses be accountable for them?
At the risk of throwing an incendiary reference into the debate, I don't remember too many people calling for Janet Reno's resignation after Waco. And to be blunt, the military has handled this a hell of a lot better than the DOJ handled the Waco investigations.
Posted by: Robert Crawford ||
05/07/2004 20:23 Comments ||
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.... The defenseâs first witness was FBI artist Raymond Rozycki, who drew the sketch based on a description by Elliottâs Body Shop employee Tom Kessinger. The drawing depicted a heavy, well-built man with brown eyes and hair who witnesses said was with McVeigh at the leasing agency. ....
Kessinger said the man wore a black T-shirt, a baseball cap with white and blue zigzag patterns and had a tattoo on his left arm.
Hilda Lopez, a former housekeeper at the Dreamland Motel, said she saw a man wearing a cap with a similar pattern walk toward a Ryder truck that was parked in the motel parking lot on April 17. The man was well-built, had short black hair and a dark complexion that made him appear Hispanic, she recalled.
Posted by: Mike Sylwester ||
05/07/2004 11:46:07 PM ||
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.... The surprise testimony came from Lea McGown, owner of the Dreamland Motel in Junction City, Kan. She .... told jurors McVeigh asked her as he checked in April 14, 1995, to tell anyone looking for him that he had gone to get a haircut at Gracieâs, a beauty shop. She said later a young man "came by," asking either for McVeigh or the guest in Room 25. She said the man -- age 25 to 30 -- walked up to the motel from the interstate. She said she gave the man directions to Gracieâs.
She also repeated her claims of hearing McVeigh and one or two other men talking in the room just before midnight April 15 or 16, 1995. She described one speaker as having a velvety, deep, self- assured voice.
And, she said she saw McVeigh with two Ryder trucks, one April 16, 1995, and the other April 18, 1995. .... defense attorneys contend there is evidence another Ryder truck was used in the plot.
Jurors Thursday also heard from Jeff Davis, who delivered moo goo gai pan and egg rolls to McVeighâs room April 15, 1995. He said the guest was not McVeigh. He explained how he remembered the delivery, one of 17 that night. "It was late. I got a tip. That was highly unusual." If you want to stay inconspicuous in Junction City, Kansas, donât tip delivery persons from Chinese restaurants.
The first defense witness Thursday was FBI forensic artist Raymond Rozycki, who did the drawings of John Doe No. 1 and John Doe No. 2 from the descriptions of an auto mechanic at Elliottâs Body Shop. ....
Defense attorneys plan to put on about 200 witnesses over the next three weeks.
Posted by: Mike Sylwester ||
05/07/2004 11:37:58 PM ||
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(CNSNews.com) - A U.S. Muslim group has joined various Democrats in demanding the resignation of U.S. Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld.
I feel faint, I'd best go lie down ...
The Washington-based Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR), which describes itself as a national Islamic civil rights group, said Rumsfeld "bears ultimate responsibility for the brutal and humiliating actions of American troops and for the poor handling of the (Abu Ghraib prisoner) scandal by the military establishment.
"He must also take responsibility for fostering an atmosphere in which the traditional rules of war and norms of international law are treated as excess baggage," CAIR said in a press release. If Rumsfeld "and his entire management team" do not resign, CAIR said President Bush should remove them. "No other action could possibly help mitigate the devastating impact this scandal has had on our nationâs image worldwide," CAIR said.
Democrats calling on Rumsfeld to resign included House Democratic Leader Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.); Sen. Tom Harkin (D-Iowa); and Rep. John Conyers Jr. (Mich.).
All of whom want to use Rummy to get to GWB.
Earlier this week, CAIR demanded a congressional investigation to determine the "true extent of the prisoner abuses and to learn whether they were in fact part of a widespread pattern of human rights violations in U.S. detention facilities worldwide. CAIR is currently sponsoring voter registration drives nationwide, prompted by what it considers an assault on civil liberties by the Bush administration. CAIR particularly opposes enforcement of the USA PATRIOT Act, which leads to arresting Muslim terrorists discrimination against Arabs, it says.
The CAIR website currently features an article on third-party presidential hopeful Ralph Nader: "Nader urges action on Civil Rights violations against Muslim Americans," the title says.
Posted by: Carlos ||
05/07/2004 5:27:57 PM ||
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#1
I'd demand CAIR's resignation from the human race, but they'd have to be members of it first.
Posted by: Barbara Skolaut ||
05/07/2004 21:18 Comments ||
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#2
How do you say, "Wish in one hand and $hit in the other?" Or "Go away, boy. You bother me!"
It's all about November 2nd. And CAIR wants to play in the Big Leagues. What makes me think these guys are going to LOSE... Big Time?
All it takes is a few phone calls from Ashcroft to start a full blown DOJ/IRS Investigation of this Terrorist Front Organization?
Posted by: Jack Deth ||
05/07/2004 21:20 Comments ||
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#3
"Muslim Group Demands Rumsfeldâs Resignation"
Bite my shorts, haji.
Posted by: Dave D. ||
05/07/2004 21:31 Comments ||
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#4
Is it just me or does anyone else not give a shit what CAIR wants?
#6
This is a damn good sign that Rumsfeld is doing a damn good job! GO RUMMY!
Now is a good time for Ashcroft and the DOJ/IRS to bring the hammer down HARD on CAIR... while it is linked to the Dummycrats.
And no, the Patriot acts does not discriminate against Arabs... Just Terrorists. And you cannot discriminate against Muslims since Islam is not a race but a chosen religion.
Thursday, May 6, 2004 Posted: 7:19 PM EDT (2319 GMT)
Democratic lawmaker says changes needed for victory
From Ted Barrett
CNN Washington Bureau
WASHINGTON (CNN) -- A pro-military Democratic congressmanâs description of the war in Iraq as "unwinnable" unless changes are made sparked anger in House Republicans Thursday.
Rep. John Murtha, D-Pennsylvania, in a news conference with Democratic leader Nancy Pelosi, D-California, said the problems in Iraq are due to a "lack of planning" by Pentagon chiefs and "the direction has got be changed or it is unwinnable." Republicans seized on that word, ignoring Murthaâs overall point: that more troops and equipment should be sent to Iraq. Rep. Tom DeLay, R-Texas, the majority leader, accused Murtha of participating in a "calculated and craven political stunt." Who is this @ssclownâs mentor, Ted Kennedy?
"The Democrats are quitting, calling the war unwinnable while we have our men and women and their families sacrificing every day" charged Rep. Sam Johnson, R-Texas, who was a prisoner of war in Vietnam. Democrats are "basically giving aid and comfort to the enemy," echoed Rep. Michael Burgess, R-Texas. Murtha usually wins high praise from Republicans for regularly supporting increases to the Pentagonâs budget. As the top defense appropriator in his party, his views tend to carry a lot of weight.
But the word "unwinnable" -- which greeted lawmakers Thursday morning above the fold in the Capitol Hill newspaper Roll Call -- quickly became a Republican target. Rep. Jerry Lewis, R-California, who chairs the appropriationsâ defense subcommittee, said his friend was co-opted by Pelosi so she could drum up opposition to the war she voted against. He said it was part of "movement" by Pelosi and her strategists "because it could have an impact on election time."
Sheâs "using the issue for purely campaign political purposes," Lewis said. At the news conference, Pelosi said Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld should resign because of his handling of the Iraqi prisoner abuse scandal. "He has been engaged in a cover-up on this issue and continues to be," she said. Murtha complained that the administration treats Congress "with absolute arrogance" but said he doesnât want Rumsfeld to resign.
He also said he does not think the United States should withdraw from Iraq. Rather, he said, more troops and supplies should be sent. "We cannot prevail in this war with the policy we have today. We need to mobilize or get out," he said. "It would be devastating to pull out now, but it may be impossible to mobilize now that the public has turned against it," he said. Iâm obliged to place Murthaâs pronouncement on a par with the f**ksticks that abused prisoners in Iraq. Both have served only to damage the performance of our soldiers in the field. While freedom of speech certainly permits Murthaâs observations, it is also the duty of any good American to support our troops while they are in harmâs way. Undermining their morale, be it through misconduct or mischaracterization is a subtle form of treason.
In Murthaâs case, his words are a flat out distortion. His statement is a slap in the face to those who fight, their commanders and the tools they campaign with. During the decades of my high technology work many projects Iâve participated in directly contributed to Americaâs military supremacy. In all those years it has never once occurred to me that I might sabotage any of those efforts. There is a glow of pride that such a thought did not cross my mind until I typed these words.
Murthaâs sabotage of our troopsâ morale is a most wretched form of partisan sniping and makes no constructive addition to any dialogue about the Iraqi war. Sure, he has the freedom to say what he thinks. Like so many other politicians these days, he fails to realize that just because you have a right to do something, that does not make it the right thing to do.
#1
Throwing more into Iraq is not a plan. We only need 2 things for victory in Iraq:
1. Give the military what IT says it needs and then ALLOW them to do their job.
2. The Democrats must stop sabotaging the war effort for political gain. They're pathetic.
Posted by: Rex Mundi ||
05/07/2004 17:08 Comments ||
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#2
more troops and supplies should be sent. "We cannot prevail in this war with the policy we have today.
more troops only when it is time to move onto syria and/or iran..
and we have already prevailed in this theater of war....yes there will still be insurgents who will attack our forces but we are going nowhere and the majority of iraq is peacefull..............
and we will not when this war just in iraq..like i said it is only a theater of operations...
Posted by: Dan ||
05/07/2004 17:52 Comments ||
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#3
Zipper, your use of the diminutive "Shrub" for the Commander-in-Chief and your "belief" that he "stole" the election are part and parcel of the partisan sniping that you are supposedly condemning.
It's a package deal--believe like you and Murtha do or not at all.
If you'll believe one Leftist lie, you're required to swallow the whole lie package.
Posted by: Jen ||
05/07/2004 18:00 Comments ||
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#4
Jen, your baseless speculations as to my political alignment are pretty hilarious. Have you ever considered that I might actually detest all career politicians with equal vigor? You may not want to as your pretty little (and I do mean little) head might explode.
#5
Funny you should worry about my head exploding....
You really shouldn't deal with even the most simple of political thoughts because you are going to hurt yourself even further.
Posted by: Jen ||
05/07/2004 18:35 Comments ||
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#6
Zenster, more than one person here has asked you about the same or similar question: How do you square your âkill them all, let God sort them outâ rhetoric with your âBush is a crookâ rhetoric?Do you believe you know of someone better able to handle the WOT?
#7
I can't figure out how Ms. Pelosi could make the statement that the Abu Ghraib prisoner abuse was and still is being covered up by Rummy. The abuse was made public back in January. Just because the press didn't run with it back then doesn't mean there has been a cover up. There are on-going investigations that do not need to be compromised. In ANY possible criminal investigation not all information is ever made available because of the need to protect the rights of the accused. The Liberal Democrats never cease to amaze me.
Posted by: Deacon Blues ||
05/07/2004 20:39 Comments ||
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#8
Deacon, Comrade Polosi and the other lefies hope that hanging a label on something will help their cause. Bush is a liar and attacks Kerry's war record! Yet ask them to point to a lie or an attack and they change the subject. Congressman Rangel wants to impeach Rummy but can't find a specific charge to make that happen. In order to impeach someone they have had to commit a felony crime. There has been no crime committed! They are all just being political opportunists and I pray that it bites them back in November!
#9
cingold, where have I ever said "kill them all, let God sort them out?" My outlines of a credible deterrent against terrorism are specifically oriented towards avoiding the mass slaughter of Muslims that others around these parts seem to advocate. Please provide quotes indicating my support for such genocide.
As to crooks in the White House. Need I remind you that politicians of every stripe are not only supposed to avoid any direct conflicts of interest, but even the appearance of any conflict of interest? Caesar's wife and all that.
NEW YORK (CNN/Money) - President Bush borrowed money from oil company Harken Energy Corp. while he was a member of its board, a practice he condemned this week as part of his plan to curb corporate abuse and fraud, the White House acknowledged Thursday.
... Bush reported that stock sale 34 weeks later than SEC regulations required, and he's been unable to explain why.
Then there's Cheney and Scalia's cozy little tete a tete.
WASHINGTON - Vice President Dick Cheney and Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia spent part of last week duck hunting together at a private camp in south Louisiana, just three weeks after the Supreme Court agreed to take up an appeal by the vice president in lawsuits over his handling of the administration's energy task force.
Need I point out how the Halliburton KBR misconduct in Iraq has severely damaged American credibility as to our motives for being there? From all outward appearances, the situation positively reeks of wartime freebooting, regardless of whether it has happened or not. It would be puerile to say that this was not rather easy to foresee.
With Enron's executive officers pleading guilty it might be prudent to open for public inspection White House negotiations with that corrupt and defunct energy firm.
WASHINGTON (CNN) -- A report issued Wednesday by a Democratic congressman critical of the White House for not releasing records of the closed-door meetings of Vice President Dick Cheney's energy task force said "there are at least 17 policies in the White House energy plan that were advocated by Enron or that benefited Enron."
"The range of policies in the White House energy plan that would help Enron is enormous," Rep. Henry Waxman, D-California, wrote in a letter to Cheney asking him again to release information about White House contacts with Enron and other energy companies while the plan was being formulated.
"This creates an unfortunate appearance that a large contributor received special access and obtained extraordinarily favorable results in the White House energy plan," Waxman wrote.
Other donations, like those of the "Pioneers" have raised eyebrows as well.
In each case, the Pioneer has helped Bush win election and Bush Administration policies have benefited the Pioneer - in many cases, at the expense of the public interest.
- EMPHASIS ADDED -
Even in the absence of any guilt involved in these circumstances, there nonetheless remains a distinct semblance of misconduct. There is most definitely the appearance of a conflict of interest.
I require better answers than those provided so far and feel that America deserves them as well. I welcome you to provide any cites or links conclusively proving a complete absence of wrongdoing as regards the above cites. Is it possible for you to openly avow that there is absolutely no appearance of any conflict of interest presented by these situations, cingold?
#10
Zipper boy, this has all been investigated and there was no there, there.
Old, old, old talking points straight from the DNC. Don't ever complain about partisan sniping again.
Or we'll ask you about Gore, Billary and John Kerry getting funding from the ChiComs for missile secrets and jobs!
Posted by: Jen ||
05/07/2004 22:21 Comments ||
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#11
Or we'll ask you about Gore, Billary and John Kerry getting funding from the ChiComs for missile secrets and jobs!
Jen, are you so incredibly dense as to think I remotely approve of such horsesh!t? Such willingness to slander others really takes the shine off of your accusations.
#12
There's a hell of a lot more evidence about Kerry, Gore and the Clintons taking illegal campaign contributions than there is about Bush!
President Bush was thoroughly vetted about his finances when he ran for President in 2000.
He's clean--the Dims aren't.
Posted by: Jen ||
05/07/2004 22:29 Comments ||
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#13
Does Rantburg have a pool going yet as to what happens this winter when Bush wins? Do you think we will send in more troops once the election is over, get more agressive with those we have, or what? I'm getting the feeling Bush is sorta "holding down the fort" right now, dealing with issues like Sadr as they arise but not making a final push. But, I also think that come November, if Bush wins, the next 90 days will be pretty busy in Iraq, and perhaps elsewhere.
#14
Fear. Can you smell it? Desperation pheromones permeate RB. Disapproval! Rejection! Childhood terrors re-emerging... Pfeh. Some understand what's important. Some don't. Doesn't matter folks, here we have someone who cheats at solitaire. Take that to its logical conclusion and you find a person capable of anything, since they can't even be honest with themselves. Hey, who cares? It does not complete an honest discussion and refuses to puzzle out the conflicts and admit that, at the least, it is unworthy and unsound until it has done so, performed the internal fess-ups, and made peace with reality. It has no shame, so you can't drive it away. You can only ignore it.
#15
And of course, we now have a good number of Kerry's "band of brothers" coming forward saying that Kerry lied when he testified in front of Congress about ALL of the military committing "war crimes" in Vietnam and lied about his war wounds to get medals and then get sent home.
Kerry's dirty whichever way you turn--and his wife won't release her tax records and that's where all the money and the Leftist donations are hidden.
And I'm sharp enough to believe that you'd approve of this horseshit from "your" Dim guys but rake Bush and Republicans over the coals for nothing!
We, the GOP, are the better party--in ethics, morals, principles and ideology!
Posted by: Jen ||
05/07/2004 22:35 Comments ||
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#16
Lest we forget, the Clinton pardons scandal was in the papers again today, too!
Look for Bush to not be so protective of these documents in a second term, although I'm sure it makes him sick to his stomach that any American President would so tarnish the Oval Office with such behavior.
Wonder how much Islamist terrorism Mark Rich has funded?
Posted by: Jen ||
05/07/2004 22:42 Comments ||
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#17
And I'm sharp enough to believe that you'd approve of this horseshit from "your" Dim guys but rake Bush and Republicans over the coals for nothing!
Jen, you are pathetic. Time to close yet another waste of this board's bandwidth.
#18
I know you think you're so funny and clever, but the readers of this site won't be fooled--you've been nailed as a shill and an apologist of the Left/Dims/Libs.
Posted by: Jen ||
05/07/2004 23:11 Comments ||
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An American lawyer arrested in the United States was being held as a suspect in the Madrid train bombings after investigators found a fingerprint on a bag linked to the bombers, Spanish police sources said on Friday. Investigators found the bag containing detonators in a van outside a station where the bombers were believed to have boarded trains before the March 11 attacks.
It's the little things that trip you up.
When no match for the single fingerprint was found in Spain, police distributed it abroad, including to the U.S. Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI), a Spanish Interior Ministry spokesman said. Brandon Mayfield, a convert to Islam who married an Egyptian woman, would be the first American implicated in the case. U.S. officials have yet to confirm the arrest, which was reported by Mayfield's brother and Spanish officials after Newsweek magazine broke the story.
Spanish police sources, speaking on condition of anonymity, said the FBI had found more evidence in the fingerprint than had the investigators in Spain.
The FBI discovered 15 points of similarity between the fingerprint on the bag and Mayfield's corresponding finger, but police in Spain found only eight points of similarity, the Spanish police sources said. Several other unidentified fingerprints also were found on that bag, the sources said.
There is no international standard for the number of points of identification required for a match between two fingerprints, according to CrimTrac, an Australian agency that assists police.
15 points is good. Wonder how he plans to explain how they got there?
An FBI spokeswoman refused to confirm or deny the detention, saying only that two search warrants had been issued in connection with an unspecified investigation.
Newsweek said the lawyer had done child custody work for one of six Oregon Muslims convicted last year of trying to travel to Afghanistan to help al Qaeda -- the network blamed for the Madrid bombings and the September 11, 2001, attacks in the United States. The magazine quoted sources as saying the lawyer had been under FBI surveillance for some time and was being held as a "material witness" in a grand jury investigation. That allowed the U.S. Justice Department to hold him in secret without formally filing charges. A Justice Department spokesman declined comment.
Mayfield, a former U.S. Army officer, was critical of the foreign policy of President Bush's administration, his brother said. Reached at his home in Halstead, Kansas, Kent Mayfield told Reuters on Thursday: "I can swear up and down my brother has no connection to terrorist attacks."
Funny, that's what they all say.
Posted by: Steve ||
05/07/2004 1:28:07 PM ||
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The Enemy Within comes in many shapes sizes and colors.
Posted by: John Long Hair ||
05/07/2004 14:15 Comments ||
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#2
but often prays 5 times a day to Mecca, no?
Posted by: Frank G ||
05/07/2004 14:24 Comments ||
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#3
My question is a little bit off topic: Is Terry Nichols's wife a muslim? I know she is philippino but is she a muslim?
From a previous Reuters article via Daniel Aronstein and PowerLine: "I think the reason they are holding him is because he is of the Muslim faith and because he is not super happy with the Bush administration. So if that's a crime, well you can burn half of us," Kent Mayfield [Brandon's brother] said.
Yeah, uh huh. I'm sure it had nothing whatsoever to do with his fingerprints being all over one of the backpacks.
#7
Andrew Riley, writing in the Daily Telegraph says that in Britain, fingerprint experts commonly need 16 points of comparison between two sets of fingerprints before they will agree to give evidence in court. But in the United States, Australia, and New Zealand, the figure was 12 points and in parts of India, eight points.
----------------------------------------
15 points is good ...
It's more than good, it's totally d@mning evidence. If there is a proven link with the Madrid atrocity I hope this maggot never again sees the light of day for the rest of his natural life. There had best be no plea bargaining for this turd.
#8
Speaking of turds, I can't believe the way you show up here day after day when we've thoroughly and completely spanked you the day before.
I guess you hope that nobody will remember.
Posted by: Jen ||
05/07/2004 17:22 Comments ||
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#9
Jen, your vitriol has all the potency of vinegar. I suggest that you mix it in proper proportion with water and self-administer the resulting solution as women have done for centuries.
#15
My question is a little bit off topic: Is Terry Nichols's wife a muslim? I know she is philippino but is she a muslim?
On the Sunday before the Oklahoma City bombing the Nichols family went to a local church to celebrate Easter. That afternoon the family was sitting down to their Easter dinner when McVeigh called and asked Nichols to drive with him to Oklahoma City to drop off McVeigh's get-away car there.
Posted by: Mike Sylwester ||
05/07/2004 22:21 Comments ||
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#16
Stop it, girls. You're both pretty.
Only to someone with such peculiar tastes as yours, RC.
#18
The Enemy Within comes in many shapes sizes and colors Exactly
Posted by: BigEd 2004-05-07 7:50:07 PM
"A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banners openly. But a traitor moves among those within the gate freely, and his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys are heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears no traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to their victims and wears their face and their garments, and appeals to the baseness which lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of the nation; he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murderer is less to be feared."
FBI agents arrested a Portland, Ore., lawyer Thursday as part of the investigation into the deadly multiple train bombings in Spain, federal officials said. Brandon Mayfield, a U.S. citizen, was taken into custody on a material witness warrant, said a senior law enforcement official in Washington, D.C. The arrest, first reported in Newsweek, is the first known in the United States with connections to the March 11 bombings in Madrid. Newsweek said Mayfield had done child custody work for one of six Oregon Muslims convicted last year of trying to travel to Afghanistan to help Usama bin Ladenâs terror network Al Qaeda. The FBI also searched the manâs home, which he shares with his wife, the official said.
Mayfieldâs fingerprints were found on materials related to the Madrid bombings, said a second senior law enforcement official. Outside Mayfieldâs suburban Portland home Thursday evening, his wife, Mona, told reporters, "as you can imagine, today has been quite dramatic. My husband is a good man, a good father, a good husband. Itâs just unfair. Itâs unfair to myself and it is unfair to my children." She said her husband was 37, and that the two have three children, two boys ages 10 and 15, and a girl, aged 12. Her husband was born in the small Oregon coastal community of Coos Bay, she said, and he was a former Army officer. His undergraduate degree is from Portland State University, Mona Mayfield said, and his law degree is from Lewis & Clark University in Portland. He converted to Islam in 1989, she said, and attends a mosque in nearby Beaverton.
Neighbors Arlene Witt, 71, and her husband, Roy Witt, also 71, said the Mayfields have been a pleasure to live near. They used to exchange cookies, and the Wittâs grandchildren would play ball with the Mayfield children over the back fence. "A kind of shock went through me," said Arlene Witt, "There is no safe place anymore. Weâve tried to be neighborly and theyâve been friendly." Arlene Witt said the Mayfields didnât do anything in particular that was suspicious. But their Muslim dress and childrenâs names, Shane, Sharia and Samir, stood out.
Portland attorney Tom Nelson, who described himself as Mayfieldâs friend and mentor, said Thursday afternoon that he received a call from Mayfield Thursday, pleading for help. Nelson said Mayfield would be represented by a public defender. "His wife was in tears because of the way the search was conducted. The FBI apparently hurt things in the house, left things in disarray," Nelson told reporters outside Mayfieldâs home. "He is a regular run-of-the-mill guy." Nelson also said Mayfield had never traveled to Spain.
He mailed his fingers in?
Material witness warrants, usually kept confidential by a federal judge, are used by the government to hold people suspected of having direct knowledge about a crime or to allow time for further investigation into the witness. Suspects may be held indefinitely without formal charges. Officials would not provide any further details about the man or his alleged connection with the Madrid bombings, which killed 191 people and injured 2,000 others. Spanish authorities blame the attack on Islamic extremists, possibly linked to Al Qaeda. Eighteen people have been charged to date in Spain -- six charged with mass murder and the others with collaboration or with belonging to a terrorist organization. The FBI and other U.S. agencies have warned that Al Qaeda or its sympathizers might attempt to attack mass transit systems in major U.S. cities this summer.
Earlier this year, in Portland, the last of six men and a woman were sentenced on charges of conspiring to wage war against the United States by helping Al Qaeda and the former Taliban rulers of Afghanistan. Mayfield represented one of those people, Jeffrey Leon Battle, in a custody case involving Battleâs son. Law enforcement officials did not know of any further contacts between Mayfield and any of the other Portland terrorism defendants. Mayfield had attempted to have Battleâs son, who went by the Muslim name Esau in Portland, placed in the custody of an uncle who had also converted to Islam, rather than with his biological mother and Battleâs former wife Angela Rowden of Houston. Rowden was awarded custody of the boy, who now goes by the name Geoffrey. It will be interesting to see what this brings to light...
Posted by: .com ||
05/07/2004 3:04:55 AM ||
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Curiouser and curiouser - Aunty says he had his prints on the bag the explosives were carried in.
Posted by: Howard UK ||
05/07/2004 10:02 Comments ||
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#2
FoxNews corroborating your Aunty report, now. Filling with "He was a regular guy!" quotes from neighbors. Wifey, wearing Muslim Wymyn headgear, sez he's a "good man", etc. - prolly Islamospeak for OBL Lieutenant and confidant. Sheesh. Oregon. I though all they did there was grow pot and, between highs, protest all the Kalifornians moving in raising property prices.
#6
Didn't the Portland City Council direct the police chief not to cooperate with the Patriot Act and the WoT?
Posted by: Alaska Paul ||
05/07/2004 13:27 Comments ||
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#7
Fox News: MADRID, Spain â The fingerprints of the American attorney arrested as a material witness in the Madrid train bombings were found on a plastic shopping bag that held detonators like the ones used in the deadly March 11 terrorist attacks.
Posted by: Frank G ||
05/07/2004 13:49 Comments ||
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#8
Makes me wonder how this convert to the RoP got his fingerprints into the database?
Posted by: ed ||
05/07/2004 14:04 Comments ||
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#10
LGF dug up some interesting facts on Mayfield's friend and mentor Tom Nelson:
International Solidarity Movement activist Joe Carr, 22, who witnessed both the killing of Rachel Corrie by an Israeli military bulldozer in Rafah Camp, Gaza, and the shooting of British activist Tom Hurndall as he attempted to protect Palestinian children from Israeli gunfire, led a workshop with Portland attorney Tom Nelson, co-founder of Americans United for Palestinian Human Rights.
Now, ain't that special.
Posted by: Steve ||
05/07/2004 14:30 Comments ||
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#11
Just think - we may have found John Doe #2 also!
Posted by: Jack is Back! ||
05/07/2004 15:02 Comments ||
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Friday, May 7, 2004 Posted: 4:28 PM EDT (2028 GMT)
Audiotape offers bounty of gold for U.N., coalition leaders
(CNN) -- U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan said Friday that he is taking the latest threat from Osama bin Laden seriously. An audiotape believed to be from the al Qaeda leader offered a bounty in gold for the deaths of Annan, Iraq envoy Lakhdar Brahimi, U.S. civilian administrator L. Paul Bremer and others. BWAHAHAHAHA! After so much terror appeasement from the UN, itâs sort of nice to see them in the crosshairs for a change. What goes around ...
"Weâll have to take precautions and then carry on with my life and my work," Annan said, referring to himself and Brahimi. "Thatâs what we are going to do," Annan said. Annan has been threatened before by the elusive global terrorist, but a price was never placed on his head. The "prize" is 10 kilograms of gold (about 22 pounds), worth about $125,000.
The message denounces U.N. efforts, led by Brahimi, to organize the transfer of power from the coalition provisional authority to an interim Iraqi government June 30, and calls the United Nations "a Zionistsâ tool." Donât all Arab terrorists define anybody who is not sending them direct financial aid as the "Zionistsâ tool?"
The voice on the 20-minute audiotape, reviewed by CNN, appears to be that of bin Laden. But the speakerâs identity has not been confirmed by intelligence officials.
If the message is indeed from bin Laden, it would mark a new tactic for the al Qaeda leader -- offering a financial reward for killing specific officials. The message suggested that the bounties were being offered in response to rewards the United States has offered for wanted figures in Afghanistan and Iraq, including bin Laden. Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. I guess al Qaedaâs ranks are getting a little thin at the top. Those rewards go up to $25 million.
"You know that America promised big rewards for those who kill mujahedeen," the message said. "We in the al Qaeda organization will guarantee, God willing, 10,000 grams of gold to whoever kills the occupier, Bremer, or the American chief commander or his deputy in Iraq." The message calls the handover of power to the Iraqis an "overt trick to anesthetize the people and abort the military resistance." Deterring unrest by installing representative government. What a concept!
In response to the tape, a U.N. spokesman said, "Weâre taking this seriously. In consultations with [the United States], we are taking additional measures regarding the secretary-generalâs security." The message said that those who die while killing coalition soldiers in Iraq, "the great prize will be for us and for him when God grants him martyrdom." I wonder if Annan will ever comprehend the irony of America increasing security for him when he has done so much to undermine Americaâs national security at home and abroad. Bin Laden was last heard from in April.
In that audiotape, the speaker offered a "truce" or "nonaggression" to any European country that stops "attacking Muslims" but excludes the United States from any such deal. Gosh, I feel so left out. And those "truces" work so well too. Just ask Spain.
The speaker gave a three-month deadline, starting April 15, for countries to stop "attacking Muslims." He mentioned Iraq but not in the specific context of the U.S.-led war. European politicians immediately ruled out anything but unconditional surrender to negotiating with bin Laden. The CIA -- after evaluating the previous tape -- said that though it was impossible to be absolutely sure the voice on the tape was bin Ladenâs, it most likely was.
In the April tape, the speaker also threatened revenge on the United States for the death of Hamas founder Sheikh Ahmed Yassin, who was killed March 22 in an Israeli targeted helicopter attack in Gaza City. He also referred to the attacks of September 11, 2001, and the Madrid train bombings of March 11 as examples of actions al Qaeda had taken in response to what he called attacks on Muslims. As if we needed any more reasons than we already have to snuff bin Laden like a guttering candle.
#1
Yeah, the United Nations is just "a Zionistsâ tool." Those Zionists at the UN do a pretty good job of covering their true motives. Their resolutions condeming Isreal for human rights violations and killing terrorists are just a front.
Posted by: Carlos ||
05/07/2004 18:12 Comments ||
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#4
Imagine getting hit with a 10 Kilo gold bar.
Bunch of goldbricks I say.
Posted by: Alaska Paul ||
05/07/2004 18:15 Comments ||
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#5
HEY!!! Whats up with the gold? Hmm...must be running out of Virgins.
Maybe recruiting programs that offer solely intangible incentives which are frequently fatal to boot just aren't drumming up volunteers like they once used to.
UNITED NATIONS (AFP) - The United Nations (news - web sites) complained that it had already been "tried and convicted" by the media in the burgeoning fraud and bribery scandal over its Iraqi oil-for-food programme.
UN Secretary General Kofi Annan's spokesman lashed out just a day after the head of a new inquiry into the programme ruled out making public any documents about the case. "I resent the allegation of a coverup. There's been a lot of irresponsible charges made in the media over the last several weeks about the United Nations," spokesman Fred Eckhard said.
"Lies! All lies!"
"We've been essentially tried and convicted in the press on the basis of virtually no evidence."
Other than the list of names, the contracts, the bank accounts and the cover-up, of course.
But a Baghdad newspaper in January published the names of more than 200 people it said had appeared on an Iraqi oil ministry list as having received payoffs from the regime.
The reports have rekindled media interest in the programme, which had long been rumoured to be rife with mismanagement. Journalists have been pressing for the release of internal audits of the programme, which oversaw tens of billions of dollars in contracts.
"Bob, Carl: follow the money."
The US Congress and some Iraqi leaders have also asked the United Nations to release documents. Paul Volcker, who is heading a new probe into oil-for-food, said Thursday those documents would remain confidential.
Did Paul drink the kool-aid?
Last month, a US television network reported that oil-for-food director Benon Sevan and two other top UN officials had been paid off by Saddam's regime. Sevan has denied any wrongdoing.
"Wudn't me!"
The scandal wrecks threatens non-existent UN credibility in Iraq at a critical time for the world body, which is trying to help set up an interim government in Baghdad and is mulling a major return to the country. A report into the August bombing of the UN's headquarters in Baghdad, which killed 22 people, found that UN officials had underestimated the anger felt by Iraqis at the United Nations.
Wonder why?
Posted by: Steve White ||
05/07/2004 4:50:56 PM ||
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'Tried and convicted' in the press doesn't cut much ice with me. I'd feel a lot better if someone started throwing around the phrase 'disgorgement of bribes profits' which, to me, would be the most concrete admission of guilt wrongdoing, which is why it'll never happen.
#2
Wouldn't you love to see Coffee Man do a day in front of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee like Rummy just did?
Posted by: Mr. Davis ||
05/07/2004 17:07 Comments ||
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#3
*snicker*
Toss the drowning UN people LifeSavers immediately! The Assorted Flavors pkg would be best.
Whining from the UN guys is a new and fascinating phenomenon - they've been given a blanket pass for 50 yrs and are quite unaccustomed to scrutiny and actual expectations to pony-up! This is one of those World's Tiniest Violin moments.
On top of that Kofi has 10,000 grams of gold on his head.
OH, THE PRESSURE MOUNTS!!!
Posted by: Alaska Paul ||
05/07/2004 17:51 Comments ||
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#11
If they've been tried and convicted, the only suitable sentence is execution.
Close the UN down and get it the hell out of the US, give it to the Euroweenies they'd appreciate it more.
A policeman was shot dead in Thailand's restive south on Friday where Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra toured Muslim schools under scrutiny as breeding grounds for militants killed in clashes last week. The policeman was gunned down on patrol in Narathiwat province in the Muslim-dominated south where Thaksin is trying to soothe anger over his tough military response to recent violence. Many Muslims were outraged at the killing of 108 militants, among them young students, by security forces on April 28, the bloodiest day since violence erupted in January. Thaksin said students had "acted as a tool" of extremists, and authorities are investigating whether religious schools, particularly privately run pondoks, are being used to recruit and indoctrinate young militants. "We suspect some schools might have played a significant role in these shootouts," said a police investigator in the southern province of Pattani. Police confirmed a Bangkok newspaper report that handbooks written in Malay and urging Muslims to fight for an independent state had been found on the bodies of some militants.
Comes as a surprise, huh? Floored me, too...
The unrest has fueled fears of a resurgent separatist movement in the south, where rebels fought a low-key insurgency in the 1970s and 1980s, and where most of the population are Muslim ethnic Malays.
Philippine defence and police officials said Thursday they had uncovered a new Jemaah Islamiah (JI) logistics cell in the country and arrested a suspected member who might have helped transfer funds from the al-Qaeda and JI terror networks. Eduardo Ermita, the defence secretary, said in a press briefing that the authorities had begun proceedings to freeze several bank accounts holding a total of $25,000 of funds transferred from suspected JI leader Riduan Islamudin, also known as Hambali, currently under US custody. It was the first time that Philippine security officials had been able to establish a detailed money trail from international terror suspects to their local partners, he said.
The authorities also arrested 46-year old Jordan Mamso Addullah based on leads provided by US officials who interrogated Mr Islamudin, said Hermogenes Ebdane Jr., the Philippine police chief. He added that according to US intelligence, the $25,000 was transferred in July 2003 and was delivered to JI members by an unknown courier flying in from Kuala Lumpur. The authorities believe that upon receiving the money, Mr Addullah changed it into local currency and sent half of it to an Indonesian JI cell leader called "Zulkipli". "Zulkipli" was then supposed to have deposited some of it in a bank and gave the rest to a JI bomber known only as "Marwan". Mr Ebdane said the remainder might have been used to finance a safe-house for the JI cell, Mr Addulah's money trading business and the dowry for Zulkipli's fiancee. Apart from money laundering, Mr Addullah is also facing charges for possible involvement in at least three bombing incidents in the southern Philippine island of Mindanao, where most of the country's Muslim minority live.
Posted by: Dan Darling ||
05/07/2004 12:05:58 AM ||
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Approximately 2,200 U.S. Marines have been sent to operate from a new military base in central Afghanistan, AFP reported on 6 May. The 22nd U.S. Marine Expeditionary Unit established Forward Operating Base Ripley just outside Tirin Kot, the capital of Uruzgan Province. Suspected neo-Taliban and Al-Qaeda militants have been active in the province. U.S. military officials hope the new base, created to support the mission Taskforce Linebacker, will play a role in establishing security before the national elections in September. Base Ripleyâs commanding officer, Colonel Kenneth F. McKenzie Jr., told AFP that "Our mission here is to improve the general security environment and that will lead to successful elections." McKenzie stated that the base camp in the center of the country will help to restrict the movement and activities of militants. "Uruzgan," said McKenzie, "sits central to Afghanistan...itâs a natural transit point for people to move from east and west."
Posted by: Mike Sylwester ||
05/07/2004 11:57:09 PM ||
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Turkmen state workers who received their diplomas of higher education from schools outside of the country after 1993 have received a letter from the authorities notifying them that their degrees will no longer be recognized in Turkmenistan after 1 June. The letter notes they will be dismissed from their jobs as of that date, as well. ....
The letter of notification implements a general decree passed by the Education Ministry in June 2003. In a televised speech last year, Turkmen President Saparmurat Niyazov explained the motives behind the decree. "There are about 5,000 Turkmen students who are studying abroad," Niyazov said. "Among them, there are honest as well as dirty people, too. If we donât have an agreement with those countries, students should be taught in our country."
It is unclear why the year 1993 was chosen, or how many people are affected by the decree. But the dismissal of teachers, doctors, engineers, and other professionals in Turkmenistanâs state-run economy is expected to be massive. Observers say the move will further erode the countryâs social services, increase unemployment, and force many members of Turkmenistanâs educated class into permanent exile. ....
Bess Brown, a Germany-based expert on Central Asia, says the new measure is consistent with past government practices. "Obviously, most people affected by it were going to be people who had taken degrees in the Russian Federation because thatâs where people went to study, including Niyazov," Brown said. "His degree is from Leningrad [Polytechnic Institute]. [But] it affects everyone of every nationality. Itâs part of this policy of wrecking the educational system that Niyazov has been engaged in for several years now."
Turkmenistanâs education system has been in steady decline. Universities accept only about 3,000 students a year, one-tenth of the number before independence in 1991. Education levels are far below international standards, as well, making it more difficult for students to transfer credits to foreign universities. Professors and students who do not have a thorough command of the Turkmen language are also being pushed out of the countryâs universities, which now teach almost exclusively in Turkmen.
Posted by: Mike Sylwester ||
05/07/2004 11:54:41 PM ||
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TURKMENISTAN ANTHEM (TRANSLATION) - ADOPTED 1998
from David Kendall Anthem Website
CHORUS: The creator's fate of Turkmenbashi is immortal
Oh sovereign state, native country,
Oh Turkmenistan - song and lighthouse
Live forever and always thrive!
Sons will put their heads for the native fireplace
The ancestors' spirit in our hearts will not fade
The flag of native country waves and it will wave -
As a symbol of great, neutral state
CHORUS REPEAT:
United nation, in the veins of tribes pours
The blood of the ancestors and it makes springs more pure
We are not afraid of stormy times nor suffering
Only fame and glory we will expand
CHORUS REPEAT:
Mountains and rivers and flowers in steppes
Fate and love, all connected by me Don't be blinded one who'll look to you angrily
You, fatherland, are alive by ancestors and by me!
An American general recommended that Army prison guards in Iraq become more involved in "softening up" prisoners for interrogations shortly before abuses occurred at the Abu Ghraib prison last fall, according to an internal report at the heart of the controversy. .... In a report citing "numerous incidents of sadistic, blatant and wanton criminal abuses" inflicted on Iraqis held at Abu Ghraib between October and December 2003, Maj. Gen. Antonio Taguba said he found credible evidence that military police guards were improperly drawn into the role of setting "physical and mental conditions for favorable interrogation" of prisoners. Tagubaâs report says the practice of using MPs to help break down prisoners may have been imported from the Guantanamo Bay prison complex and possibly others in Afghanistan used to hold terrorist suspects. The Guantanamo Bay prison complex was run by Maj. Gen. Geoffrey Miller. In late August 2003, Miller conducted an inquiry on interrogation and detention procedures in Iraq and suggested that prison guards could help set conditions for the interrogation of prisoners, according to the Taguba report. ...
A November 2003 report by Maj. Gen. Donald Ryder, the Armyâs provost marshal, concluded that the Army Reserveâs 800th Military Police Brigade, which was running Abu Ghraib, was not given official orders to get involved in setting conditions for interrogations. Taguba, however, offered a different view. "It is obvious," he wrote, that at least some at lower levels of the 800th did get involved. Interrogators from military intelligence and other government agencies, believed to include the CIA, actively requested that MPs guarding prisoners at Abu Ghraib set the conditions for interrogations, Taguba reported.
This is in violation of Army Regulation 190-8, he said. That regulation states: "All persons captured, detained, interned or otherwise held in U.S. armed forces custody during the course of conflict will be given humanitarian care and treatment from the moment they fall into the hands of U.S. forces until final release or repatriation."
It also runs counter to the MPsâ intended mission of maintaining a safe and orderly prison, he said. The Armyâs top officer, Gen. Peter Schoomaker, confirmed that on Wednesday. "Itâs a misstatement to say that the military police are trained to soften everybody up," he said. "Their job is to provide a safe and secure environment for those that we detain."
Taguba, however, received sworn statements from MPs who said they were involved in such activities. Spc. Sabrina Harman of the 372nd Military Police Company said a detainee was placed on a box and had wires attached to his fingers, toes and other extremities, and her task was to keep the detainee awake. Military intelligence, she said, "wanted to get them to talk."
As a result of the Taguba report, which the Pentagon still classifies secret, the Army has begun a separate probe of military intelligence.
Posted by: Mike Sylwester ||
05/07/2004 11:21:04 PM ||
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Little Green Footballs is very good at sifting through the garbage to find pearls like this.
Egyptian pop star Shaaban Abdel Rahim, who had a smash hit on the Arab charts in 2000 with âI Hate Israel (and Love Amr Moussa),â is back on the scene with the cheery pop confection âHey Arabs Leaders!â http://www.pmw.org.il/new/Latest%20bulletin.html#twocoins The new song blames Israel for the World Trade Center attack, and says that Israel and the US are dividing up the Arab world.
Shaabanâs music video is available with subtitles at the link above; the cartoon treatment of the WTC collapse is especially memorable.
â...Two faces of the same coin, America and Israel.
They made the world a jungle and ignited the fuse.
America spread its wings, doesnât care at all.
No one can stop her, no one can catch her.
Soon he (Bush) will say Iran, then he will say Syria,
But he is silent about [North] Korea. Maybe he should say Egypt.
About that [Twin] Tower, oh people
Definitely! His friends [Israel] were the ones who brought it down.
What terrorism!! [Visual shows Sharon pushing the button]
How many years are left.
For America and Israel acting as bullies. . . â
The singer, Shaaban Abdul Rahim, was interviewed in the official PA daily Al Hayaat Al Jadida this week, and said that his feelings of hatred of Israel and the US were representative of the sentiments of the Arab world in general.
Posted by: Random thoughts ||
05/07/2004 7:07:13 PM ||
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#1
his feelings of hatred of Israel and the US were representative of the sentiments of the Arab world in general
What a coincidence! My hatred of Egypt is representative of the sentiments of the USA in general.
.
Posted by: Mike Sylwester ||
05/07/2004 22:04 Comments ||
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#2
his feelings of hatred of Israel and the US were representative of the sentiments of the Arab world in general
Which proves they're bad Muslims. Since everything is the will of Allah, the fact that we're free and prosperous and their lives absolutely suck is the will of Allah. So what are they whining about?
If Allah wanted all the Americans and Jews to be dead, we would be. If Allah wanted the Arabs to have decent, free, democratic lives, they would have them.
Obviously we're free and powerful, especially our women, and the Arabs' lives are in the toilet because Allah wants it that way. If they were good Muslims, they'd shut up and thank Allah for their fates instead of whining and complaining and earning his wrath even more than they already have.
I won't hold my breath, though - if they could figure out something as simple as that, they wouldn't be the whiny-assed worthless losers they already are.
Posted by: Barbara Skolaut ||
05/07/2004 22:47 Comments ||
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#3
Barbara, great rant - wished I'd thought of that angle.
#4
Barbara, it was a great rant!
Eventually, after they've been severely licked (even more than they are now), they'll come to the conclusion you talked about.
If they were smarter--and some of their folks, to their credit, have--they'd do it now.
Posted by: Jen ||
05/07/2004 23:26 Comments ||
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#5
Unless, of course, Allah is not in fact either all good or all powerful or both. If that is the case, well you gotta wonder about who you are worshiping.
JERUSALEM: A senior Israeli military official has drawn up a Middle East peace plan proposing to increase the size of the Gaza Strip threefold through an Israeli-Egyptian land swap, an official source said. National Security Council chief Major General Giora Eiland's plan calls on Egypt to give 600 square kilometers in the Sinai Peninsula to Palestinians. In return, Israel would hand over 200 square kilometers of land in the southern Negev desert to Egypt, including a tunnel linking it to Jordan.
"This is only one of the options being considered by the National Security Council as part of a solution to the conflict with the Palestinians," an Israeli official told AFP.
"Another option is to send Arafat to Neptune. We can't decide!"
Israel's top-selling daily Yediot Aharonot said the project had already been presented to White House National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice and German Foreign Minister Joschka Fischer, with Premier Ariel Sharon's approval. The plan was intended to be released as a European initiative to which Israel was meant to agree, the newspaper said.
Except the Euros would want the Israelis to live in the enlarged Gaza and the Paleos to have the rest.
But the first step was Sharon's "disengagement" plan, which was embarrassingly rejected by his own Likud Party last Sunday despite backing from Washington, casting a doubt over the wider plan's feasibility. The Sharon plan calls for a complete withdrawal from the Gaza Strip, including the removal of all 21 settlements there and their 7,500 residents.
Eiland's plan would triple the size of the Gaza Strip, one of the most densely-populated areas in the world where 1.3 million Palestinians live in poverty.
Which would still be densely-populated and poor.
The patch of land to be relinquished by Israel would encroach on the southern Negev desert and be prolonged by a tunnel under Egyptian sovereignty, providing a land link between Egypt and Jordan.
Until some jihadi drives a truck full o' C-4 inside.
According to Yediot, the plan stresses that the route would offer free access to the Mediterranean to Jordan, Saudi Arabia and Iraq, and the possibility to use new sea and air port facilities in the enlarged Gaza territory.
Eiland's plan also stipulates that the Palestinians would be granted sovereignty over 89 percent of the West Bank as part of a final settlement to the decades-old conflict.
But without East Jerusalem, right of return, yadda-yadda, it's DOA.
Posted by: Steve White ||
05/07/2004 8:52:06 PM ||
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#1
Surprise meter is right. (Map).
A tunnel to Egypt would be a MAJOR incentive for trade in the whole region. Plus, Palestinians would have a free flow from Jordan to the Gaza Strip, which the Jordanians could use to "incentive" them back to Palestinian territory.
Since there is no direct connection between the West Bank, except through Jordan, it would most likely result in TWO Palestinian states.
Bottom line, every country that would profit handsomely would be interested, even if they couldn't come out and say so. Since Egypt would run the tunnel, any boo-boos would be attacks against them, no Israel.
KARACHI (Reuters) - A suicide attacker detonated a powerful bomb in a crowded Shiâite mosque in the business district of the Pakistani city of Karachi Friday, killing at least 15 people and wounding more than 125, police said. Shuckey darn. Itâs just fine for these Islamist to blow up each othersâ Mosques but when we top a minaret full of RPG equipped assailants itâs an international crime. I guess itâs time to start thinking like our attackers.
The mosque was packed for Friday afternoon prayers when it was shattered by the fourth and worst bomb attack in five days in Pakistan, a frontline state in the U.S.-led war on terror. President Pervez Musharraf called the attack a "heinous act of terrorism" and ordered an immediate inquiry. The mosque was badly damaged. Blood stained the floor and walls and pieces of flesh were scattered around. I wonder if the Shiâites are getting a memo from the remaining world about how their actions in Iraq are damaging world opinion of their entire sect.
It was just the latest attack on a Shiâite mosque in Pakistan, which has been racked for decades by violence between the minority Islamic sect and militants in the Sunni majority. Angry Shiâites went on a rampage in central Karachi, pelting cars and shops with stones and setting fire to a state-run petrol station, several vehicles, a building and a police post near the mausoleum of Pakistanâs founder Mohammed Ali Jinnah. Karachi police chief Tariq Jameel said 15 people were killed in the mosque bombing. Officials said another 125 were wounded. Yeah, religious intolerance is just so ... uh ... intolerable, thatâs the word, "intolerable."
"It appears to be a suicide attack," said provincial security adviser Aftab Sheikh. "The explosives were attached to the body of the bomber who was apparently in the third row of worshippers." Worshipper Ali Abbas, his clothes smeared with blood, said he was in the third row when the bomb exploded and something hit him hard on the back. "It was part of a body." he said. "There was chaos. All of us ran outside, jumping over the injured and human remains." Rohena Hasan, a doctor at the state-run Civil Hospital said more than 20 people were in serious condition. One gander with Israeli style sauce, coming right up!
Prime Minister Mir Zafarullah Khan Jamali vowed strict punishment of the perpetrators. "Those who committed this cold-blooded murder cannot be termed Muslims as Islam shuns violence," the official APP news agency quoted him as saying. Shiâites demanded protection for their community. "We are at the mercy of terrorists who are getting bolder because they are not being punished," said Shiâite cleric Hasan Turabi. "Now we have to defend ourselves." Terrorists "not being punished?" Stop, stop ... youâre ripping my heart out!
The mosque is inside the compound of a historic school, the Sindh Madarsatul Islam (Sindh School of Islam), where Jinnah, received his early education. More than 125 people have died in sectarian violence in Pakistan in less than a year, most of them Shiâites.
ATTACKS RATTLE SOUTHWEST
In March, 44 people were killed and 150 wounded in an attack on a Shiâite mosque in the southwestern city of Quetta that was blamed on Sunni militants. Earlier Friday, three people were wounded in Quetta, capital of Baluchistan province, when a small bomb exploded opposite a hotel due to host a weekend investment conference. Jamali had been expected at the cityâs Serena Hotel on Saturday to chair the meeting. However, he canceled his plans to attend before the blast due to commitments in Islamabad, said Information Minister Sheikh Rashid Ahmed.
Police said the blast was caused by a small time-bomb attached to a tricycle bicycle. Baluchistanâs chief minister, Jam Mir Mohammad Yusuf, called it an attempt to sabotage the meeting. Baluchistan is one of Pakistanâs poorest regions and has been frequently troubled by Islamic militancy and tribal violence. Thursday, another small bomb exploded outside the ticket office of Quetta railway station, but caused no injuries. Monday, a car bomb exploded in the fishing town of Gawadar in the far south of Baluchistan, killing three Chinese technicians working on a project to build an major port. (With reporting by Amir Zia and Tahir Ikram)
#2
There is something in the water or in the food in the ME that has made these people nuts. We need to slap a study on it and get answers, quick!
Posted by: Alaska Paul ||
05/07/2004 19:29 Comments ||
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#3
I'm sure it's Sunnis killing Shias because they regard Shias to be as "kaffir" as Jews and Christians who must be exploded for their unbelief or something.
Posted by: Jen ||
05/07/2004 19:31 Comments ||
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Two reports have accused the Sudanese government and Arab militia of massive abuses in western Darfur region. The United Nations says Darfur refugees are systematically being starved. Human Rights Watch says black Africans are deliberately being driven off the land. In a report published on Friday, the UN Commissioner for Human Rights described a "reign of terror" in the region.
It said a UN team found "appalling" conditions when it visited the town of Kailek less than two weeks ago. Militias prevented food deliveries and stopped anyone leaving, the report said. Sudanese Foreign Minister Mustafa Ismail has acknowledged there might have been human rights violations, but denies a campaign of ethnic cleansing is going on. Later on Friday, the report will be presented to the UN Security Council in New York.
Inhumane conditions
One aid worker in Kailek described what happened there as the "politics of starvation". Eight or nine children were reported to have been dying from malnutrition every day. The report said women and girls were raped and described inhumane sanitary conditions and a lack of medical treatment. Members of the UN team were said to be "visibly shaken" by circumstances in the town.
Refugees first sought shelter in Kailek, the biggest settlement in the area, after Arab militias started attacking nearby villages. The horseback militia known as the Janjaweed surrounded the village, effectively holding 1,700 people hostage. The UN report says that as food began to run out, residents were forced to start paying the militia to leave the village to look for supplies. The refugees were later moved to a nearby town, Kass, in advance of a visit by another UN team.
The survivors in Kass have been camping in a disused secondary school. They appeared dazed and traumatised, says the BBCâs Ishbel Matheson. One three-year-old girl lying on open ground was little more than a skeleton. There was no medicine to treat her and very little food, our correspondent adds. The local authorities in Kass deny that they colluded in the siege, but survivors tell a different story. They are adamant that they saw government forces working alongside the militia. The UN report said it believed there were other villages like Kailek in western Sudan, where civilians were living in similar conditions.
Report
A report released by the New York-based Human Rights Watch has accused the Sudanese government of ethnic cleansing and crimes against humanity in the Darfur region of western Sudan. It says the tactics involved include mass rape, summary execution and the systematic burning of villages and crops.
Meanwhile, the foreign ministry in Chad has summoned Sudanâs ambassador to protest against cross-border incursions by militia from Darfur. The Chadian government has urged Sudan to assert control over the militia, following the latest clash on Wednesday. Meanwhile this same nation is now an elected member of the UNâs "Human Rights" panel. I think this pretty much washes up whatever last shreds of credibility or moral authority the UN might ever have once had in its not so illustrious past. Mass rape is a pretty solid indicator that a country has no grip upon reality or its troops.
The U.N. suffered a severe blow to its legitimacy on when the Arab League nation of Sudan won a seat on the U.N. on Human Rights, outraging human rights groups and prompting the United States to walk out in protest, The Financial Times reported ...
#1
Come on Old Euorpe,don't you think it's time to step-up to the plate.Were's your Moral Superiority,we are a little ocuppied.
Either s#$t or get off the pot.
Hey Mr.Preis.it's time to tell the U.N. to take a flying f@*k at a rolling dougnut.
Iraqi cleric Moqtada Sadr's uprising was dealt a pair of blows as the Shiite Muslim establishment in this holy city told them to return to their homes, while US troops killed 20 of his militiamen.
Respected cleric Sheikh Sadreddin Kubbanji issued an unequivocal denunciation of Sadr's Mehdi Army in a sign that US political and military pressure could be bearing fruit and time may be running out on Sadr's month-long insurrection.
"Listen to the advice of the learned ones. You are our beloved youth and we care about you, but go back to your home where you came from and fight the occupation and the Baathists there," Kubbanji told thousands of worshippers at weekly Friday prayers at the Imam Ali Mausoleum, one of the most revered shrines in Shia Islam.
"The Najafis will be responsible for protecting Najaf," he said of the holy city, 130 kilometres (80 miles) south of Baghdad.
Minutes later, gun-toting militiamen from the Badr Organisation, the armed wing of the main Shiite political party, the Supreme Council for the Islamic Revolution in Iraq (news - web sites), whisked Kubbanji away.
Tensions have long festered between Sadr and the city's senior clerics, but Kubbanji, who has strong ties with the Shiites' most influential religious leader, Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani, had been reluctant to lash out at Sadr.
The city has tired of the US military's month-long siege of the city, and Sadr's rebellion has deflated considerably. His men have lost control of cities they seized in April including Karbala, Diwaniya, Nasiriyah and Kut.
They never got around to actually seizing Karbala, Diwaniya, and Nasiriyah, but go on ...
Another eight militiamen were killed and 14 others wounded during fighting with US troops in nearby the shrine city of Karbala, a doctor said there.
Medics carried the bodies of men, clothed in the Mehdi Army's black uniform, and ambulances pulled up with more casualties at the city's general hospital.
Yet Sadr carried on defiantly Friday afternoon, circumventing US checkpoints on foot with armed followers to deliver a fire-and-brimstone sermon in Kufa.
Sadr, who promised his followers Tuesday he would lead them to martyrdom, demanded that US President George W. Bush (news - web sites) stand trial in Iraq over the prisoner abuse scandal at Abu Ghraib detention centre.
A top coalition official said Thursday the Americans were holding talks with sheikhs and tribal leaders as part of their bid to isolate Sadr and promised "several hundred million" dollars to spend in and around the city to try to wrest control of the area from the cleric's armed followers.
The US-led coalition also plans to strengthen the security forces in Najaf, and nearby Karbala, to drive out Sadr's men.
Posted by: Dan Darling ||
05/07/2004 4:09:37 PM ||
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#1
Nice. Sadr's got to be sweating. At this point I think its better if we don't kill him. No need to turn this loser into a martyr--he and his followers are increasingly shunned by the Shia general population. The only thing that can slow that trend is if we kill him. Best now if the Badr Organizations captures him and turns him over for trial. Still, I would shed no tears if we turned Tater into hash browns.
#2
"Listen to the advice of the learned ones. You are our beloved youth and we care about you, but go back to your home where you came from and fight the occupation and the Baathists there,"
Bzzzt! Sorry, wrong answer. Please come back and try again later. This is not any "advice of the learned ones," this is a great way to get your head blown off and little else.
#4
Minutes later, gun-toting militiamen from the Badr Organisation, the armed wing of the main Shiite political party, the Supreme Council for the Islamic Revolution in Iraq (news - web sites), whisked Kubbanji away
A shoot-out between the Badr Brigade and the Sadr Mehdi Army over the corpses of any number of learned ones would make good TV. Wonder if Al Jazeera would show it?
If you want to use it,Mr. Secy General , there is one main condition:
How about turning over the oil-for-bribes $ you and the fruit of your loins have stashed in a numbered bank account somewhere to the folks who can buy food & medicine for the Iraqis?
Hereâs a somewhat plausible reason for taking photos of the detainees:
Englandâs family says she agreed to be snapped mocking Iraqi prisoners because she was told the pictures would help threaten other detainees. In one photo, she is shown standing making a jaunty thumbs-up gesture behind a pyramid of naked Iraqi men. In another, a cigarette dangling from her lips, she points to a hooded and naked prisoner. England said she was just following orders. "She told me they told us do whatever you have to do in order to get them to talk," Terrie England said.
Posted by: Zhang Fei ||
05/07/2004 9:54:07 AM ||
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#1
Exactamundo. Psychological pressure on the notorious Arab male ego applied by an American female. Humiliation, embarrassment, loss of "honor", it's all part of the program.
Posted by: Mr. Davis ||
05/07/2004 11:14 Comments ||
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#3
I think our erstwhile "dominatrix" may have a legitimate defense, but the people who ordered her to do this may be crackin' rocks in Leavenworth for a long time, even though this would certainly be effective form of psycological warfare under the circumstances. It is unfortuneate that this particular photo became public.
#4
Mr Davis - Nurmberg dealt with senior officials in the German Government, not a PFC on the bottom of a stack of Sergeants, Lieutennants, etc., etc. As long as she was not physically abusing these prisioners, I doubt if she will get jail time, though she will probably get a dishonorable discharge, which will keep her in that trailer the rest of her life.
#5
Mr. Davis: Didn't work at Nuremburg, won't work now.
For gassing millions of Jews, including women, children and seniors who were not combatants, yes. For humiliating Iraqi combatants to get life-saving information, maybe.
There was no military utility to killing millions of Jews that could not have been achieved some other way. Keeping them in detention camps as enemy aliens and requiring them to work for their upkeep? No problem. But killing them was where the line was crossed.
If what these soldiers did was for military purposes, coming down on them amounts to betraying them for doing what ultimately had to be done to extract useful information in a timely manner.
#6
BigEd: I think our erstwhile "dominatrix" may have a legitimate defense, but the people who ordered her to do this may be crackin' rocks in Leavenworth for a long time, even though this would certainly be effective form of psycological warfare under the circumstances.
That's exactly the problem. There was significant pressure from up high to produce results, without any surefire method of getting these results. If conventional methods fail, as they surely must, against hardened terrorists, and American lives are at stake, harsh psychological and mild physical pressure may have to be applied. This is why Alan Dershowitz (an otherwise liberal lawyer who advocates torturing terrorists for information) pressed for explicitly defining the limits of pressure placed on captives implicated in terrorism - to avoid placing unfair blame on the lower level people responsible for getting us the information on a *timely* basis.
#7
I am now prepared to cut her a little more slack...In business or in the military, I scratch my head whenever I hear a 21 year old is romantically involved with a 35 year old. She was just the "monkey" in this mess, and I am more interested in putting a face on the "organ grinder".
And sorry Dem's, I know it ain't Rummy although today is going to be a quite painful day for him.
#8
Orders don't matter; you're not supposed to follow illegal orders. Considering the shitstorm, any orders she received appear to be illegal.
If she had been the one to get word up the chain of command about what went on, instead of the one posing and grinning, she wouldn't be facing punishment. To paraphrase an Indian Jones movie, "she chose... poorly".
Posted by: Robert Crawford ||
05/07/2004 11:50 Comments ||
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Robert Crawford: Considering the shitstorm, any orders she received appear to be illegal.
This is an after-the-fact judgment over fine legal points. It's pretty clear that gassing 12 million civilians is a war crime. I know of no law stating that posing with Iraqi detainees in humiliating circumstances is a war crime, and I've read a fair bit of military history.
#10
And now, but of course, we have a Congressional Committee Hearing in progress in which Rumsfeld is expected to apologize.
As a result, there is an avalanche of TV.
And as a result of the TV coverage, we have much pontification and harrumphery. I believe the salary of US Senators & Representatives is $142K/yr. I would like to know why they receive this pay since they were notified 4 months ago by the Pentagon, but they ignored it.
The puffery / fluffery / grandstanding is disgusting. Warner (Moron/Va) and Levin (Moron/Mi), complete with his patented eyeglasses on tip of nose "image" (all the better to look down upon others, yet maintaining a "grandfatherly" persona - shift between as needed) are giving their introductory speeches which are lame rehashed hash by two-bit hack writers cashiered by Hollyweird for being, well, hacks. What a waste of time.
Rummy's now speaking. Takes responsibility, will see that it doesn't happen again (uh, oh), feels terrible, apologizes, inconsistent with American values, regrets harm to reputation of our Armed Forces, truly wonderful human beings, and to rep of the US. Anguish in DefDept when photos came in. Lauding those who blew whistle. ETC.
Now some female heckler is screaming at him - really got a pair of vocal chords, too. Now joined in chanting some drivel by cohorts. It's a real circus. Fox is cutting away until they are given their meds - in a DC jail cell, I hope. Ringling Bros and Barnum & Bailey.
Now Rummy continues without missing a beat. Sigh.
This is all obvious. This is all pointless, as a public forum and TV extravaganza. Pfeh.
"Suppose you were an idiot and suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself."
-Mark Twain
#11
ZF -- Convention relative to the Treatment of Prisoners of War. Geneva, 27 July 1929:
Art. 2. Prisoners of war are in the power of the hostile Government, but not of the individuals or formation which captured them. They shall at all times be humanely treated and protected, particularly against acts of violence, from insults and from public curiosity. Measures of reprisal against them are forbidden.
Posted by: Robert Crawford ||
05/07/2004 12:15 Comments ||
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#12
insults? they were not calling them names
their pride was certainly hurt, but that's not insulting.. be insulting if they said "Your mama was a goat" or some such.. meh ok that would be a compliment for those folks seeing as how women are dirt to them.. feh think up your own insult ;p
public curiosity? cnn made it public, gov had been investigating this quietly for 3 or so months.. maybe you should try cnn for war crimes...
#14
Now some female heckler is screaming at him - really got a pair of vocal chords, too. Now joined in chanting some drivel by cohorts. It's a real circus. Fox is cutting away until they are given their meds
.com : meds? I only have audio at work. Did the DC police have pepper spray after all?
#15
We send these people oveseas to risk their lives to stop a threat to us. This is an important and dangerous task and with it goes commensurate authority. They get to kill and capture people using force. But with that authority comes individual responsibility for using force appropriately. Whether that was the case in each instance is for the Court Martial to determine.
The point of my comment is not whether it was a war crime or whether she is guilty but what constitutes a defence. "I was ordered to do it" doesn't cut the mustard unless she then informed the proper authorities which does not appear to be the case in her instance.
Posted by: Mr. Davis ||
05/07/2004 12:34 Comments ||
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#16
Good point Dc. Our enemy in this war could care less. They arn't extra mad now and they will still cut our throats and steal our cars.
Dot, wonder how the hairy legged protester got access to these hearings. I just caught the last few seconds of the protesters being carefully sheparded out and thought I saw a poster being flashed. Sham.
Still would like to know who took the pictures and how they got out. WHO!
#17
There goes Bagogas Levin going after the CIA again. His heavy breathing is palpable.
Even if his point is valid - his motives are obvious.
i.e. Who told PFC English to hold that leash.
Next up John McCain. Ties situation into the Tillman story. Valid point.
Becoming testy over who was in charge of interrogation. JMc gets lots of slack on this. His been on the wrong end of interrogations.
#20
If not there already, we are on the cusp of a real dilemma for the justice system: what is "real" and what is "doctored"? I've already seen some Photoshop work that is undetectable without zooming to the individual pixel level.
Asshat McCain is now playing tough guy in the TV show. He's pretending to be so reasonable and asking fundamental questions - and being exceptionally rude to everyone at the table, including Rummy, dismissing their answers. He must think he smells blood in the water.
Now asking what specific words were in the instructions to the guards about how to treat prisoners. As if Rummy was present when they were given their orders at morning rollcall. No respect given, yet demanding answers which no one at the table could possibly answer. McCain is being disingenuos and asinine. What a shithead.
McCain is on the other side - and playing his POW status for all it's worth. Mebbe he WILL join Skeery - it would fit behavior such as this.
Now Teddy K is pontificating. Claiming that Rummy / DefDept is responsible for deaths at Gitmo. Now saying Rummy had photos months ago (lie) and has spent weeks preparing PR plan. Right. Now posing "Do you still beat your wife?" question format. What did you know and when did you know it crap in his argumentative game talking over Rummy. Now Rummy straightening him out about the facts. Kennedy trying to butt in, Rummy ignoring him. This is witch hunt BS.
I'm going to change channels before I destroy my TV.
#22
No prob .com -
Owing to history, I cut JMc a little slack, but why is that Bagogas Kennedy so full of righteous indignation.
Sen Roberts (R-KS) is taking the emotion down a notch. That is good.
God help us - here comes watch the Byrdie. Oh poor baby, he has Laryngitis, he he he.
#24
I don't cut anyone any slack over his veteran's status when the issue being debated isn't his personal character. McCain has his heart in the right place on national security issues, but his words on this matter cut no ice with me - it's low-ranking soldiers at the bottom of the totem pole whose futures are at stake, not his.
#26
Zhang Fei - McCain's time as a POW has an effect on his questioning in a case like this. It has to. So his attitude and questions have to be understood in that context. I think Rummy's response to him vs Kennedy or Byrd reflect that Rummy himself understands this.
#27
Allard (R-CO) Quiet calm.
Lieberman (D-CT) God! He's pissed. But not so much at Rummy, but at the hypocracy of this. No apology from those who have given us grief. Mentions Tillman, and a CT soldier killed.
Good for him.
#36
Saw this debacle on CNN at the gym during chow time. McCain asking ridiculous questions to Rummy about shit no one in his position could answer for, McCain trying to be terse - he should know better. This is a joke - par for the course.
#37
C_L : Rummy is doing fine. Gave it back to ol' Chappaquiddick pretty good. Nelson of Nebraska and Lieberman are the only two reasonable DEMs so far. No surprise.
Mullet-Girl : Though I don't think she has what is callet a Mullet hairdo. Is also known as "Dominatrix" the soldier, PFC English, who was holding the leash, and in other photos, mocking the naked Iraqis.
#38
Is Rod-Ham there? anybody see? I have audio only. She is on that committee. That should be interesting to see what strategy and approach she and Bubba have worked out in this situation.
#41
check out the 'grouchy old cripples' website and his views on the apolagies to the 'Arab Street', he seems to be spot on with his views,best rant i've read in ages, go check it,hell someone shuld post it up on here...
Posted by: Shep UK ||
05/07/2004 14:35 Comments ||
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#42
Mullet Girl = PFC English
Ok I get it. I think she's a hottie. I like a woman who can mockingly point at the shriveled dick of a misogynistic bad guy. Or lead one around on a leash.
#45
get this straight people. PFC English, and her companions, and whovever up the chain is responsible, have by their actions, almost certainly caused the death of American servicemen, pro-American Iraqis, and probably even Indians, Israelis, and others. Theyre as bad for our side as Al Jazeera. Hell if you worked for Al Jizz you were DELIGHTED when this came out. Think about it.
#46
LIE-berman and McCain are both "wild cards."
Even Dims know that "Whining Joe" can change his position even over issues of conscience at the drop of a hat for political expediency.
(Notice how they do not call him the "Conscience of the Senate" anymore?)
McCain is the Manchurian Candidate and only nominally a GOP, which is why the Left loves him (he's ideologically compromised) and he personally hates GWB.
This is a GOP Administration and I don't want either schizophrenic man as SecDef.
Rummy is solid.
You know how you can tell that an "issue" is horse shit?
The Dimocrats get all excited and start babbling about LIEberman and McCain!
Posted by: Jen ||
05/07/2004 15:03 Comments ||
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#47
Leibermans changed his positions, yup.
So have Cheney and Rumsfeld over the years. Dubya hasnt so much since he was basically a political novice when he ran for President.
McCain may hate Bush, but hes got damned good reason.
#48
Lieberman and McCain are both political whores.
And the President doesn't need a SecDef who hates him when this country is in Year #3 of a World War.
Posted by: Jen ||
05/07/2004 15:13 Comments ||
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#49
Liberalhawk: PFC English, and her companions, and whovever up the chain is responsible, have by their actions, almost certainly caused the death of American servicemen, pro-American Iraqis, and probably even Indians, Israelis, and others.
That's right - the atomic bombings of Japan and other air raids over cities that inflicted 0.6m dead caused the Japanese to rise in insurrection against the tyranny of the American people. Oh wait - didn't they surrender, after sacrificing hundreds of thousands of soldiers who fought to the death in every engagement? The slaughter of 2m German civilians via air raids certainly caused huge casualties among Allied occupying forces. No, wait - wasn't the occupation of Germany relatively calm - this in a courageous population that sacrificed 10m dead in WWII - or 100 times the total number of Iraqi casualties in this campaign?
#50
Lieberman doesnt have the needed background anyway. And I agree, McCain is out. So who do you think Bush will pick for SecDef. I hope its not Powell or one of his cronies, like Brent Scowcroft.
#51
LH: You make a good point but I disagree with your assessment that those responsible are causing the deaths of anybody. To the jihadist, what we do is immaterial. They will continue to kill non-believers - period, because that is what they do.The only influence we currently have with them is the skilled application of firepower.
Posted by: Rex Mundi ||
05/07/2004 15:18 Comments ||
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#52
ZF - In case you dont remember, we had the USSR, UK, the Commonwealth, China, France, etc on our side then. The Germans in our zone were delighted to be occupied by us, and not the Russians. And the number of troops we used for those occupations FAR exceeded what we have in Iraq, by an order of magnitude.
If you think the GWOT situation is analogous in this regard to WW2 youre seriously misled.
#53
Rex - a guerilla must have a sympathetic population among whom to act. And WE need a sympathetic population to help build the new institutions that will drain the swamp.
Look, once again, if the draining the swamp is not the way to go, than Bush and his strategy is seriusly wrong. And if it IS the way to go, then this is a disaster. (its no picnic even if we arent draining the swamp, but perhaps less of a disaster)
#54
Liberalhawk, WTF are you talking about???
Russia had the Eastern Front and their own goals and plans for securing as much of Europe as they could take by force.
The UK was there, but greatly weakened by the Battle of Britain.
China had their own battle with the Japs and later the Russians.
France was well, France, and not even a military player--bowed down by Vichy and militarily non-existent.
Guess you're not through with your DNC Seminar Poster Revisionist history, disinformation campaign, huh?
Rumsfeld stays or the White House will hear from me and lot of other Americans who love him and think he's doing an outstanding job.
Or don't you Tranzis want America and the Coalition to win this War?
Posted by: Jen ||
05/07/2004 15:26 Comments ||
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#55
Jen - I don't put down L & McC as bad as you, but they are philosophically differen't than me. Also, Lieberman kinda stuck up for Rummy, in contrast to the Psirosis patient, and the Alzheimer's patient.
I think we must take a middle ground on PFC English. Apparently she was untrained on the Geneva Convention, and was apparently odrered to do what she did.
The biggest criminal is the leaker of the photos to the media. As this problem was known in January, the military would have had an easier time dealing with all the issues without having to deal with the noise from the left surrounding the photo release, and the extra harm posed to our folks there, in Afghanistan, and elsewhere.
However, PFC English could have said something that said, in effect, "They wanted me (as a woman) to hold a dog leash attached to a naked prisoner. Then they took this photo, to show to uncooperative prisoners, to shame them. Is this normal? "
I don't know who she could bring this up to if her immediate superior was also involved. Then there would be a Catch-22, I guess. The photos depict evil in the context they were shown, but what is the actual context of that specific photo, and some of the others?
If she was simply in the wrong place at the wrong time, as she has said, then she sure as hell set herself up to be a huge scapegoat.
#56
LH: Correctamundo on the sympathetic population, BUT - let's remember who those Iraqi prisoners are and WHY they are in prison. The Iraqi population we're talking about has just emerged from 30 yrs of horrific brutality. I would think that the population has some real perspective as result. We need to have some as well. That said, how we handle this is all important. We can't let ourselves dissolve into an orgy of handwringing. We need to get the whole story...punish those directly responsible (not some high ranking scapegoat a-la Rummy) and not let this deflect us from our mission. If we do that, our mission objective will speak volumes louder than the actions at Abu Ghraib.
Posted by: Rex Mundi ||
05/07/2004 15:35 Comments ||
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#57
Guys, I've seen these pictures and I'm not particularly shocked or outraged. Actually, I'm pretty sure that these guys don't realize what a good deal they've gotten. Here in San Francisco if you want to go out with your buddies on a Friday night get stripped naked, dressed in hooded black robes, and then humiliated by a chain smoking lesbian soldier you're going to have to pay $800-$1000 each per hour. Minimum.
#58
RM - i think, as ive said, we still need to deal with the arab world outside of Iraq. Im not sure how this plays with the various groups in Iraq, though I have my guesses.
#59
Rex: I'm with you. As regards the truly bad guys, how we conduct ourselves in this matter is irrelevant. Other than what we've seen so far probably confirms their view of us as a decadent and unserious people. The notion of winning hearts and minds in the court of Arab public opinion is farcical. That's a kangeroo court and we won't find any justice in that zoo. Our military needs to clean house and ensure workable policies on how to deal with an unconventional enemy during a WAR. I have faith that they are up to the task. Holding congressional hearings on the matter is a guarantee of a partisan freak show. My concern is that this will lead to unecessary restrictions on how our men and women in uniform prosecute this war. (We are agreed that we are at war, aren't we?)
LH: You are starting to hyper-ventilate buddy. Take a couple deep breaths. This will all blow over and we'll be onto a new set of atrocities in another week or two. Personally, I'm rooting for the final smackdowns in Fallujah and Najaf.
#60
Exactly, Rex Mundi!
(I pray to God we don't blow it!)
The Enemy can't defeat us on the battlefield, but they can do it this way, rendering us into that "paper tiger" they always said we were.
Actually, the more I think about it, the more effective I think this sexual humiliation was.
It's a brilliant tactic...and now because of this brouhaha, we can't use it anymore to subdue the enemy!
Damn! Are we at war or not?
And will the lady soldiers have to treat enemy prisoners as if they are stewardesses now, politely offering them tea, cookies and hot towels?
Posted by: Jen ||
05/07/2004 15:52 Comments ||
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#61
Actually, the more I think about it, the more effective I think this sexual humiliation was. It's a brilliant tactic
#63
Guys, I've seen these pictures and I'm not particularly shocked or outraged.
Buddy of mine says when he saw the photos, his first thought was, "Looks like Mapplethorpe". He thinks the press has got it all wrong. Take the guy on the box with the electrodes, for example. He's actually posing as an Iraqi christmas tree. His suggestion was that rather than passing these photos to the press, the leaker(s) should have applied for a NEA grant and put on an exhibition at the MOMA. Would have been a huge hit with the arts & society crowd.
#64
CL, ROFL....no kidding!
What's the even kinkier art prize over in the UK? The Saatchi or Turner or something?
These pics would have gotten a big show at the Tate Modern..and still might!
Mapplethorpe's were far worse.
As an Art Historian (in my pre-9/11 life), I couldn't view Mapplethorpe's Gay S&M stuff without retching!
Posted by: Jen ||
05/07/2004 16:01 Comments ||
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#65
No disrespect intended but it's time for the active duty mil opinion:
1) Let the mil courts complete their investigations and those who need to be disciplined will be. I've found our system to be pretty fair and consistent.
2) Please knock off the sky is falling b.s. Those who hate us still hate us, this as someone else put it, is immaterial. Those who are allied w/us will remain so.
3) I've listened to 4 different Arab journalists today - all said that Bush's address to the "street" was met w/satisfaction by the skeptics and typical disdain from those who are already hostile. Par for the course.
4) The average arab, used to govt abuse is actually confused seeing Bush address them over something most consider quasi-routine. This is according to the same arabs above.
5) There's more to this then meets the eye. Specifically, who were these prisoners? Were they inmates or true pow's? Were they insurgents not in uniform when caught? Get all the facts before we start slinging arrows and some young soldier prolly doing what she was told - humiliation is different then physical abuse. I've worked at Parris Island, I know the difference.
#68
I think LH is making pretty good sense. The WoT has two main components (1) killing (and otherwise incapaciting, e.g., financially) bad guys (2) draining the swamp/war of ideas. A lot of R'bergers are forgetting the second part. Rummy, Bush, etc. argue that, over the decades to come, we have to try to cure the insanity in the middle east that is expressed as terrorism against us. They are right. Iraq is important (among other things) because establishing a democratic, non-theocratic government in the mideast hopefully will start a domino effect. Democracies are not hospitable places for the spread/nurture of fanaticism. Abu was a big defeat in the war of ideas. Those who would abandon that part of the war by saying "they will always hate us, no matter what" are not thinking long term. Of course some hearts and minds only want to kill americans. Those hearts and minds deserve and should recieve bullets. But we should try to make it possible for moderate muslims to emerge as leaders who can stem the flow of retardedness coming from the madrasses. Abu makes that harder.
#69
Amen, CL!
Thanks for your service, Jarhead and any other of our military or ex-mil who are reading this!
We support you and appreciate you for defending our Freedom and our Security and know that 99% of you are good, decent and compassionate people.
Posted by: Jen ||
05/07/2004 16:19 Comments ||
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#70
If the photos had not come out the way they did, how much use would the photos have been in re: psycological warfare on Baathists oir Jihadis? Jarhead-your thoughts? Anyone?
#71
Sludj, I don't think many here disagree with the point that the Abu issue is a detriment to our winning hearts and minds in Iraq/the Arab world. It sucks that it happened. However, it is possible that the response to the situation may convert more people than the incident itself alienated. To your point, I think what most here are saying is that Firing Rumsfeld over this incident would do nothing to improve that hearts and minds campaign.
Posted by: remote man ||
05/07/2004 16:25 Comments ||
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#72
In the house hearing they have just acknowledged that the abuse of prisoners happened "between 22.00 and 04.00". Boy , brings new meaning to the term "night shift"
#73
RM. I agree. A lot of people are saying it was wrong for Bush to apologize and that it is wrong for us to self-flagellate over the issue because we don't get any credit for it from the arabs anyway. But, despite the quotes that CNN/Reuters/BBC love to broadcast of arabs who reject the apologies and say that our process now doesn't matter, I do believe that a lot of arabs are seeing what the US is doing, and--although they would not admit it to a western reporter--wish they had a government that was as honest and responsive.
#74
A lot of R'bergers are forgetting the second part. Rummy, Bush, etc. argue that, over the decades to come, we have to try to cure the insanity in the middle east that is expressed as terrorism against us. They are right
yeah. I've been listening to Rummy over the years, and he convinced me. Im more loyal to Rummy's ideas, than to Rummy.
JH - good, i hope what you heard about the reaction in the arab world pans out. Thats the key.
To all - im still concerned, that, despite, the positive news from JH, the admin seems to think we DO need to appease the arab street. Witness again the backtracking with the Palestinians. If we see more of that, or if we roll over for Brahimi (and mind you, Kerrys unwillingness to express the problems with the UN is one of the reasons im not now supporting him) I will be very concerned.
Its all well and good to shout how youre against appeasement. But I fear this admin is much more willing to appease on Policy, while standing behind personnel.
#75
LH--I'm truly beginning to think that you're a Seminar Poster.
I've never heard such drivel!
This Administration is neither backtracking on policy nor its "personnel!
And we haven't "backtracked" with the Paleostinians although I'm not sure what you're implying, but I'll bet you're hinting that Bush "went back" on his word to Sharon by what he said to "King" Abdullah yesterday.
He didn't. Ask around.
Posted by: Jen ||
05/07/2004 16:45 Comments ||
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#76
LH: You've got no argument from me on your last post, especially with regard to Brahimi. There was a collumn on NRO the other day that took the CPA to task for sucking up to Brahimi. The blame fell mostly on the State Dept types who think our being in Iraq is wrong in the first place. I don't think they are loyal to either the president's or Rummy's ideas. That said, I do think things are settling back down. Al Sadr is losing support quickly, Fallujah is less and less an issue, although clearly still not resolved. The less hyperventilating by all involved the better we will be able to prosecute this war. Of course this means less traitorous behavior on the part of the press and certain Dems so maybe I am hoping for too much.
Posted by: remote man ||
05/07/2004 16:47 Comments ||
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#77
LH:
re :remote man's post -I do think things are settling back down. Al Sadr is losing support quickly, Fallujah is less and less an issue, although clearly still not resolved
Witness al-Sadr's ludicrous pronouncement about "If you catch a British woman soldier, you can keep her a a slave."
That sounds like someone trying to hold onto dwindling support. . .
#78
Rm - I read that column too, but, well you know, NRO is run by a bunch of idiot lefty tranzies who want fat Ted Kennedy in charge - why else would they run something critical of the Bush administration? and heck, theyre moderates compared to the absolutely wild lefties at the Weekly Standard - of course they like McCain, who's crazy, so maybe theyre all crazy too.
Its freaking hilarious how you can get called a lefty for expressing many of the same concerns expressed (with a twist, I'll admit, though not much of one) as the most respected conservative and neo-conservative voices in the WOT. The folks who do that kind of copping dont strike me so as conservatives or hawks of any kind, but as Stalinists. Toe the line, support EVERY change in policy, any criticism from ANY perspective and youre with the ideological enemy.
Posted by: Mr. Davis ||
05/07/2004 17:02 Comments ||
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#80
CL/Jen> my pleasure to serve - no thanks necessary but much appreciated.
BigEd> I was thinking yesterday that maybe some pictures were going to be sent to certain detainees homes or neighborhoods or most likely as a threat as such to get info. The best blackmail for the islamo-mysogynist - Kind of like, "tell us what you know Samir or your boys back in Fallujah are gonna know what a bitch you are when they see you on a choke chain buck-naked led around by a little white female infidel." Plausible idea I think but am still waiting for more info.
I have also heard about civilian interrogator-translator teams in the mix - I am interested in the extent of this as well. The big thing is how much info they (DOD) classifies and what is released to us.
Plus, over what amount of time did this happen? Right after that prison riot or over months? May not seem like a lot to the lay person but to the tactical/psyop minded means more. Kind of like retaliation by the guards so no more uprisings occur - sounds plausible to me but hell, I wasn't there so who knows until prolly 6 months from now when more comes out. Bottomline - we need to stay the course - were there now - let's finish it right.
#81
He LH if you think that I was calling you a lefty or something in my last post, I wasn't. Not sure where you were going with your rant there. Only thing I've taken issue with is your recc to can Rumsfeld over Abu Ghareib.
Posted by: remote man ||
05/07/2004 17:58 Comments ||
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A Nigerian Christian leader said on Thursday the killing of hundreds of Muslims by Christian militia in the town of Yelwa on Sunday was the product of "a state of war" between the two faiths on Islam's bloody border in Africa's most populous nation. The conflict between the Christian Tarok and the Muslim Fulani is patently about their competing claims over the fertile farmlands of Plateau state in central Nigeria, but religious leaders and academics said it fed an already strong trend of religious hatred in the impoverished oil exporting country. "What we have is a state of war," said Sam Kujiyat, head of the Christian Association of Nigeria in the northern city of Kaduna.
The West African country is a battleground for the world's two main religions, which share roughly equally its population of 130 million people. Religious violence has killed at least 5,000 people since 2000, when 12 northern states predominantly inhabited by Muslims established Islamic Sharia law. On Sunday, hundreds of Christian Tarok militia invaded the town of Yelwa, sealed off roads to town with felled trees, and killed hundreds of Fulani with machine guns and machetes. A Muslim community leader said 630 bodies had been buried in the town. Abdullahi D. Abdullahi showed a Reuters correspondent a foul-smelling area of freshly turned earth where he said the bodies had been buried. The attack followed the killing of almost 100 Christians in Yelwa in February, including 48 massacred in a church, and brought the total death toll in three months of fighting in the region to at least 1,000. "In Yelwa many Christians were slaughtered and the churches there were burned down by Muslims. Do we defend ourselves or allow our homes to be taken and people killed?" said Kujiyat.
Posted by: ed ||
05/07/2004 08:57 ||
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#5
Agree to what,Anon?
Agree to sit there quietly in thier Homes and Churches while they are burned down around them(The Christians I mean).
Personally I'm glad to see Christians take the fight to the enemy.
#6
Isn't this same kind of shit happening in Indonesia? And in Egypt the christians are being 'tricked or forced' into 'Islam' (where they must stay or be killed) or being outright raped and killed.
There was an article a few days ago about a priest and some people being drowned for an 'illegal church fence' in Egypt...
Yet you dont hear a whisper of this in the mainstream media. Too busy making a mountain out of a few Muslims being offended and 'humiliated' anonymously....
Snips from print version, p.A8,
Pentagon probers are trying to determine whether the photos were one of the tools used to wrest confessions from detainees at Iraqâs Abu Ghraib prison or a more innocent action-a macabre part of some war diary being compiled by individual soldiers. How that inquiry turns out will determine whether the Pentagon needs to revamp the way the military gathers intelligence-or needs to focus on counseling and training aimed at maintaining the mental health of U. S. soldiers...
A report in the Washington Post about 1,000 photos it reviewed says the images of the abused Iraqi prisoners and their guards were interspersed with benign shots of U. S. soldiers riding camels-suggesting the photos may have been a bizarre personal collection... "These photographs, theyâre very obviously staged. They include simulated sex acts and theyâre clearly intended for internal use," says Gary Womack, a Houston attorney who is representing Army Specialist Charles A. Graner... Mr. Womack says he has been told that Specialist Graner and his reserve cohorts didnât make a move in the Iraqi prison without the approval of military inteligence officers. Those intelligence officers, he says, were under intense presure from superiors in Iraq and in Washington to find evidence of weapons of mass destruction and to identify insurgents. The photographs were a tool being used to harass prisoners psychologically, Mr. Womack says. "The guards were smiling in these pictures even though they arenât jokes," Mr. Womack says, suggesting that they are pretending to be enjoying themselves as part of the psychological pressure, thather than really enjoying themselves.
Posted by: Mr. Davis ||
05/07/2004 9:56:04 AM ||
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The ringing you hear is my BS detector going off. And how does Herr Graner feel about the suggestion that his honey, Lynndie, was only pretending to enjoy herself??
#2
Womack's a defense attorney defending a client against charges of war crimes in the face of photos of their commission. He's expected to spew bullshit.
Posted by: Robert Crawford ||
05/07/2004 11:54 Comments ||
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#3
Just a reminder: when they write this project up initially as a proposal, their lawyer is supposed to review it and give his assessment. So, if there were 'gray areas' he would warn them up front so that they would be alert to that consideration. I don't think this project was CIA, but there are about a half-dozen other intel organizations I think could be involved. I expect they somewhat follow The Company's procedure about first vetting it with their lawyer.
Another issue which I notice about this situation is that it seems difficult to support a claim of humiliation when you are hooded so that your identity cannot be determined. And I suspect their lawyer may have touched upon this facet.
A little good news to start the day.
A laser beam under joint Israeli-U.S. development destroyed a long-range rocket for the first time in a test in the skies over the American Southwest, Israelâs Defense Ministry said on Friday. "This is a significant step forward," a ministry spokesman said of the test on May 4 of the "Nautilus" Mobile Tactical High Energy Laser (MTHEL) held at the White Sands Missile Range in New Mexico. The Nautilus laser is being developed mainly by U.S. aerospace giant Northrop Grumman Corp with the help of several Israeli high-tech firms specializing in optics and military hardware. In earlier tests the MTHEL laser had successfully eliminated 28 short-range Katyusha rockets and five artillery shells in flight as well as several "hostile objects" on the ground. Hamas and Arafat must be thinking about what the Israelis might classify as "hostile objects on the ground."
Posted by: RWV ||
05/07/2004 9:44:40 AM ||
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Bwahahahaha!!
Posted by: Frank G ||
05/07/2004 9:58 Comments ||
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#2
The NEW George Foreman Grill. Fries food in someone else's kitchen so they have all the mess of cleanup. Leave all that messy fat in Palestine.
#3
Surrendering Arafat Supporter (Agitated): What has happened to our leader? He was right here, right here (pointing), I tell you. Then I saw a blinding red light, heard a sizzle, a pop, and when the light disappeared, all there was. . .I saw a cloud of pink steam.
Isralei Soldier (Handcuffing Arafat Supporter): Pink steam? Sorry, can't help you. Are you sure Arafat didn't er... disappear in the night?
Danish soldiers killed an Iraqi man after the truck he was driving didn't slow down as it approached their checkpoint, the military said Friday. The soldiers, part of the nearly 500-man Danish military contingent in Basra and nearby Qurnah, 250 miles southeast of Baghdad, were manning the checkpoint when the shooting happened. A spokesman for the Army Operational Command said the soldiers fired warning shots at the truck to make it slow down.
"Halt!"
When it didn't, they opened fire, killing the driver.
BANG! "We said halt, dammit!"
A passenger in the truck escaped.
Good fire discipline, poor judgment.
Danish military officials didn't say what the truck was carrying but said a team would investigate the matter.
Posted by: Steve ||
05/07/2004 9:33:16 AM ||
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"It's carrying a dead Iraqi"
"Brilliant Holmes!"
Posted by: Frank G ||
05/07/2004 10:00 Comments ||
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Posted by: Mr. Davis ||
05/07/2004 10:46 Comments ||
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#5
Mr Davis - from the Latin "barbarinus" and Greek "barbaros," themselves derivations of the Proto-Indo-European 'barbar,' meaning "strange, foreign, ignorant" and thought to originate as a derogatory immitation of the babbling of foreigners who didn't speak the language. Thus, people and/or behavior who are not like "us," therefore foreign, strange, bad, possibly dangerous.
Woops. Sorry. Librarian attack under control now.
Sofia the Imperial Librarian
Posted by: Sofia ||
05/07/2004 10:57 Comments ||
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#6
The truck contained not only a dead Iraqi, but also a load of pastry, and sausages from back home. Those Danes are probably hungry and homesick. "That Iraqi try to steal our milderpoese. I haven't had any good sausage in months."
EFL
Fearing that Israel will try to seize him, the Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat fortified his West Bank headquarters with hundreds of cement-filled barrels and wrecked cars Thursday, saying he was determined to go down fighting. "Quick! Nassar, grab lots of innocent women and children. Bring them to me NOW."
Posted by: Dragon Fly ||
05/07/2004 9:16:50 AM ||
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There's little that arafat could do that would even slow down an Israeli assault. This must be "busy work" in an attempt to prevent slipping morale among his troops.
Posted by: Dave ||
05/07/2004 9:44 Comments ||
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#2
"Cover the exterior with mirrors to reflect the death rays!" (See above.)
Posted by: Mike ||
05/07/2004 9:57 Comments ||
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#3
Check out this picture. Yassir's Used Cars? Like they'd stop a tank?
#5
Growler, are you sure that picture wasn't taken in NYC?
Posted by: Charles ||
05/07/2004 12:32 Comments ||
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#6
I think the rule is that on odd numbered days of the month Arafat says he is not afraid to die and prays for shaheed status. On even number days he accuses Israel of trying to kill him and has his lackeys scurry around doing defensive preparations.
#7
All charade and playacting I think. Olmert has just said that Sharon will continue to push for a full withdrawl from Gaza, despite the Likud referendum defeat. No monkeying around with partial withdrawls. Arafat is just trying to look relevant while the real action moves elsewhere.
EFL
The eyes of Abbas Aswad shine, as a US Marine lawyer counts out 16 crisp $50 bills, and places them in his hands. The money is compensation to the Mukhtar village, to fix several fragile water lines broken hours earlier by marines, as they set up positions at the nearby Fallujah railway station. Snip...
But this is the first time that Marine lawyers have been deployed at battalion level, a sign of how much the military recognizes the importance of minimizing the impact of US occupation. Inside Fallujah, the imam of one mosque has been approached to determine what has been broken, such as buildings and water mains because of "collateral damage due to combat," says Coughlin. The key - and it is a fine line in this city - is to "make sure the people who owned it were civilians, and not using [a house] for insurgents."
Compensation is not the only means US forces use to connect with Iraqis. An older Iraqi woman living in a trailer hovel adjacent to the rail station says she was beaten by insurgents several weeks ago - accused of being a collaborator - and kicked in the stomach. US servicemen evacuated Farha Abed Saad for medical treatment after dark, when her pain became unbearable. "Thank God, you have come here to Iraq and make us free," said Ms. Saad, kissing a soldierâs hands. "When I see you, I see my own sons! Thank you, thank you." Of course Pat Buchanan would have you think the sky is falling: Fallujah: High Tide of Empire?:
What Fallujah and the Shiâite uprisings are telling us is this: if we mean to make Iraq a pro-Western democracy, the price in blood and treasure has gone up. Shall we pay it is the question of the hour. For there are signs Americans today are no more willing to sacrifice for empire than was Harding to send his nationâs sons off to police and run provinces carved out of the Ottoman Empire.
Posted by: Dragon Fly ||
05/07/2004 8:44:20 AM ||
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#1
Pat Buchanan isn't anti-empire; he's on the other side.
I'm only half-joking about that.
Posted by: Robert Crawford ||
05/07/2004 11:58 Comments ||
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EFL
A senior aide of radical Shiite cleric Muqtada al-Sadr told worshippers Friday that anyone who captures a female British soldier can keep her as a slave.
Posted by: Dragon Fly ||
05/07/2004 8:30:15 AM ||
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#1
I want one!
Posted by: Frank G ||
05/07/2004 8:34 Comments ||
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#2
The trick Frank G is to catch one. This is at least as difficult as making rabbit stew.
#3
Why is Muqtada not sleeping with the fishes? We can't allow this guy to continue to take perfectly good air away from some that needs it! OTH I want my very own British female slave too!
#4
And these are the people that Bush apologized to on Arabic television. I know that Bush tried to convey the message that Americans take responsability for their actions but that message is lost with muslims. Apologizing to muslims is as stupid an idea as trying to gain their minds and hearts.
#8
With US positions only 500 meters from his mosque, the only reason Sadr is still alive is because the snipers have been ordered not to pot him, yet.
#16
I think that the picture of a t-shirt wearing, cigarette smoking and smiling woman making fun of Iraqi penii has scared the heck out of them.
In that culture, being under the control of a woman is regarded as Hell. It is worse than death.
The desire for martyrdom may not be as great as this terror. Especially the fundamentalists might even desert, unable to face such emasculation. They truly hate and fear women.
(Which leads me to suspect that those photos were psyops plants--slipped in with the real photos.)
#17
What if a British Female Soldier captures a small round Mullah?
Historical Note : The female nobility from the 15th-18th century Europe made use of castrati singers from the royal court's choir for "service" to avoid pregnancy.
#18
he's hunkered down with his little beturbanned head under some kid's bed - the only target is his ass sticking up in the air....
Good, that mean's the snipers can get a brain shot.
BTW -- why is it that the left cannot feel it in its heart to in any way condemn the slavery fetish these barbarians have?
Posted by: Robert Crawford ||
05/07/2004 12:00 Comments ||
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#19
#11, I know a (no longer active duty) Army female who was the top grad at her sniper school. Heh ..
#16 nails it. These guys are scared stiff of women. I don't know if we can help them generate the real mechanics of a democratic society, but I suspect that the kids who had friendly interactions with our troops, and who saw men and women in uniform treat each other respecfully and casually, will be a little less susceptible to this sort of crippling fear of the female, against which they overcompensate like crazy.
Posted by: No burkas on me ... ||
05/07/2004 13:18 Comments ||
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#20
$20 says the British woman kicks his ass first. In front of his friends. And an al-Jazeera film crew (not that they'll broadcast it).
#21
there is no negotiating with these ragheads -- they understand only power -- show them from the perspective of a jdam...
Posted by: Dan ||
05/07/2004 15:08 Comments ||
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#22
Isn't it 'Dear Leader' (North Korea's Kimmie-boy) who liked to host parties with 'if you can catch her [some pretty Korean slave-girl] you get to keep her' games?
#25
raptor - thanks for visual of Kimmy and Halfbright bumping uglies...... now I have to claw my eyes out
Posted by: Frank G ||
05/07/2004 20:25 Comments ||
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#26
This 7th century comment by a terror pal of radical gangster Shiite boss Muqtada al-Sadr is what they have in store for the Fema-Nazis, the same ones bashing the Rummy & Bush.
The ultra-leftists would rather support these terrorist rodents, crying about them having to wear ladies panties on their head, in place of the typical used dishrag.
The radical left in America is indeed the enemy within.
Posted by: Mark Espinola ||
05/07/2004 20:47 Comments ||
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#27
I thought Litle Kimmie and Maggy Albright had something going?
How can you tell them apart? He||, their spawn would fall out of the ugly tree and hit every single branch on the way down.
#28
Zogster, I'm not gonna tell you again--you're a Dimocrat!
Act like it!
Therefore, you love Madame Albright and think the deal she struck with Kim in 1994 was righteous!
(How could dear Maddie know the NorKs would lie and develop nukes anyway?)
Posted by: Jen ||
05/07/2004 22:53 Comments ||
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Quelle surprise
He claims the torture he suffered at the hands of his American military jailers at Baghdadâs al Ghraib prison was unspeakably brutal, unconscionably inhumane; so incredibly humiliating that he cannot think of moving back to his old neighborhood in Nasiriya. So instead, Hayder Sabbar Abd says he may be forced to relocate to an entirely new country - none other than the homeland of his torturers, the good old USA.
Mr. Abd alleges that in Nov. 2003, U.S. jail guards beat him, stripped him naked, forced him to pile on top of other naked inmates, then posed him in positions to simulate oral sex. It was a nightly ritual that began after a prison riot in which he participated. Then, inexplicably, the excruciating torture sessions stopped.
While some of his fellow Iraqis grouse that they preferred life under Saddam Hussein, Abd says that America should "pay compensation" to the prison torture victims. "He said he felt he needed to move out of Iraq," reported the New York Times on Wednesday. "Despite it all, he said he would not refuse an offer to move to America."
Posted by: tipper ||
05/07/2004 5:05:34 AM ||
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#1
No, I don't think you'd want to come here. We're a nation of torturers and perverts. You're much better off in Nasiriya, or better yet, one of the many holy cities in Iraq...
#8
You all are missing the point. He understands we have an enviable civilization where he won't have to play the honor/shame game. He know that these were a few bad soldiers, who don't represent this great country -- and he'd like to live here. I say, let him.
#11
Nah, Tresho. I really don't think it's identification with the aggressor. He doesn't want to hang out with his abusers, or protect them. He wants to come to a country where (even though he was a prisoner) the guys and gals that did this to him are "toast."
A bomb has exploded in a Shi'ite Muslim mosque in Karachi's business district during morning prayers and at least 35 people were wounded, Pakistani police and ambulance workers say.
from TCS - TechCentralStation
By Jay Currie | 05/05/2004
"So it is time, perhaps, to stop thinking about the best imaginable outcome, and instead settle for the best possible one, considering the state of world politics and the moral limitations free societies like ours place upon their war-fighting in the age of instant communications. Arab society will not become free and tolerant and self-critical, and much of the Islamic world will remain mired in ignorance and posturing and paranoia for the foreseeable future."
-- Jack Birnbaum, writing in TCS
Jack Birnbaum has looked the Iraqi challenge in the face and blinked. So, according to Robert Kagan writing in the Washington Post, has the Bush Administration, "All but the most blindly devoted Bush supporters can see that Bush administration officials have no clue about what to do in Iraq tomorrow, much less a month from now. Consider Falluja: One week theyâre setting deadlines and threatening offensives; the next week theyâre pulling back. The latest plan, naming one of Saddam Husseinâs Republican Guard generals to lead the pacification of the city, is the kind of bizarre idea that only desperate people can conjure. The Bush administration is evidently in a panic, and this panic is being conveyed to the American people."
Itâs time to get some perspective. The issue in Iraq has always been whether or not America had the will to stick out the process of building a democracy in Iraq. That process was never going to be easy. Thirty years of Saddam, the active hostility of Iran and Syria, the belligerence of much of the Arab world and the natural limits of the America when it came to the civil administration of a Muslim country all contributed to the difficulty of creating a genuine democratic alternative. The terror attacks and bombings mounted by Baathist die hards and jihadis have created significant security concerns in parts of Iraq. Worse, the relentless political correctness that has characterized the American handling of the Falluja and al-Sadr uprisings has tended to encourage a belief American power can be successfully challenged. If I were an Iraqi democrat I would be more than a little dismayed at the American reluctance to use force to crush anti-democratic forces.
The implicit message the Bush administration seems to be sending is one of limits. Limits to American power, limits to American resolve and, most of all, limits as to how far America is prepared to go to actually radically reorder the Middle East. Steve den Beste takes a tour dâhorizon of the implications of a sudden recognition of limits. From Pakistan to Saudi Arabia and all over the Arab Street, a retreat, however disguised, from a commitment to democracy in Iraq will suggest a return to business as usual in the Middle East. While Saddam will still be gone -- a good in itself for the Iraqi people -- the bigger issues the Iraqi action was meant to address will remain unresolved.
Birnbaum goes on: "From time to time we will have to again step forward and do whatever is necessary to protect ourselves and our children; perhaps it is now time to think about reserving our treasure and the lives of our youth for those future times. That will have to be enough, and there would be nothing even remotely immoral about it."
The point of the Iraq action was to begin to reduce the number of times America would have to step forward. It was to actually create and maintain the conditions in the Middle East in which an alternative to the al-Qaeda and the Wahhabis could begin to grow. Having expended blood and treasure overthrowing Saddam and quelling the anti-democratic forces in Iraq, settling for second best now would, in fact, be immoral and a strategic blunder of the first order. No one who is a tiny bit familiar with the process of creating a democracy will, for an instant, have thought that a year after the defeat of Saddam, there would be anything like a full democratic state in place in Iraq. That there are the beginnings of one is remarkable. But those beginnings need to be protected from both the enemies within Iraq and nations such as Syria and Iran which are threatening the Iraqi democracy for fear it might spread.
To go from a climate of terror to a civil society is about tens of thousands of small things adding up to a sense of security and freedom. But for those small things to begin to accumulate, the thugs of Falluja and the fat little trouble maker in Najaf need to be taken down. Hard. If the Bush administration is unwilling to use force then it should indeed get out of Iraq with Spanish efficiency. Which would almost certainly mean a return to barbarism in Iraq and the sure conviction on behalf of the jihadis that they had defeated the United States as convincingly as they defeated the Russians in Afghanistan. Of all the possible Iraqi outcomes, victory for the jihadis is the worst possible news for America and the West. Every other alternative, including leveling Falluja, would leave the West better off. I concur.
Posted by: .com ||
05/07/2004 4:03:14 AM ||
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Leveling Falluja would be the BEST option militarily and the WORST one politcally. When Bremmmer took one of Saddam's ex-Generals and made him a warlord, we suddenly have a golden arrow in our quiver. We can use this Brigade to perform 'passification' and puts an Iraqis face on it. The problem in Iraq us not a square-peg/hole problem and will require a different way of looking at problems. Level Falluha? Sure give the Brigade the Arty and turn THEM loose.
#3
One thing the article did get right - we are expecting too much too soon. Even the Germans, most like us, after WW2 didnt get free election, a national currency or anything like that for several years after the war. Japan was similar - McArthur rule dwith an iron hand, but used the locals to his advantage, unlike what we have done.
As for the stuff in Fallujah, I think it is over until the US patrols along side the Brigade. Thats the moment of choice: either they let the patrols alone, or all hell breaks loose, because the Fallujah Brigade will tear stuff up in a big way - they will not be as disciplined with their fire as the Marines. My bet it the foreigners inside Fallujah will try to fight, and even the locals will turn against them, coming to fight beside their cousins and brothers in the brigade. The history of this region and the tribal sheiks that run it point to just such a scenario.
Why did we create that brigade?
The reasons for the ex-Saddamist General and the Brigade (more like a battaliton) in Fallujah are 3 fold:
1) It gives the locals "one of their own" so there is less ability of the foreign fighters to rouse the rabble with "Fight the Infidel" talk.
2) It reverses the abandonment of many trained soldiers in that region. This reduces the pool of troublemakers available for forming a "Mahdi Army" type of activity. And these are the guys you want fighting the former Feydaheen Saddam (who are responsible for almost 100% of the non-foreigner based attacks in the SUnni areas). They want some payback, and these are their own neighborhoods they are defending. As long as we guide their responses and point them at the right targets, they will bring peace to their area.
3) It points a dagger at the heart of Sistani and the Shia who are supporting the foreign fighters who are behind 90% of all the crap going on outside the SUnni triangle. We are basically telling them: If you dont step up and start dealing with people like Sadr, we will give guns to the Sunnis and let them do it like they have the past 30 years.
If this is the gambit they are trying, Moqtada Al Sadr should be coming under more and more intense pressure over the next week, from his own people, and from the local populace. And the so-called Mahdi army will be regarded with increasing scorn as a band of thugs, while its numbers dwindle.
Its an interesting play. And a gutsy one for the US in Iraq.
#4
OS - my thoughts exactly, but better/clearly expressed. I just hope W and Rumsfeld are thinking along the same lines
Posted by: Frank G ||
05/07/2004 10:27 Comments ||
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#5
another thought on Fallujah. Latif seems to say no foreigners left there, etc. This is generally seen as a problem - either Latif is in denial (for nefarious reasons, no doubt) or we let em escape the trap, and now we'll just meetem somewhere else to our regret.
But wait a minute. Was Fallujah a trap for the foreigners?? As opposed to anywhere else they go to?? Insurgents require local support to thrive - a "sea to swim in" Look at whats happening to Sadrs militants in Najaf and Karbala - away from the base in Sadr City, they get no real support from the locals, who look on cooly as the coalition forces kill Sadrists, and in at least a few cases pitch in themselves. Seems to me that Fallujah is the ONE city in Iraq MOST supportive of the foreign jihadis - its not only pro-Saddam, its also heavily wahabi. Anywhere else in the Sunni triangle they go, theyre gonna have fewer supporters, more coalition informants, etc. Aint no place for them to go. Maybe letting them out was DELIBERATE, a joint strategy of USMC and the locals. With surrounding friendly locals the jihadis are a threat - without them theyre much less so.
I would also speculate that the foreigners have many contact/friends/networks established in Falluja over years due to its position on the smuggling route to Baghdad, which is why we might not see the same problem in cities elsewhere in Iraq.
Posted by: Carl in N.H ||
05/07/2004 12:38 Comments ||
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#8
Wretchards column today was a great read. That guy has a book in him. His telling about that polite mayor and how he welcomed his old adversary to bury the hatchet, let bygones be bygones, toothy smiles, batted eyelashes, tasty treats. Killer.
Could you imagine if a guy like Mel Gibson could get the funding to establish a movie production company with real clout. And that company could use the type of thought you find filtering through Rantburg and others. That would have a big impact on the world. I'd buy shares in such a company.
#11
Lucky - Lol! Hey, bro, I'm a programmer - there's nobody here less qualified to do marketing! Took me 20 yrs to learn that steaks need sizzle to sell! OS on the Board (and CIO, too?) makes great sense, however!
#13
Well you could throw a few pies every now and then. Could you imagine a Disney Corp being Disney again. They used to make wonderful historicly based programing. Remember Moonrakers.
#15
OldSpook, you've echoed what I've been telling many folks for weeks. Improvisation is the most important part of any campaign or operation, and the handling of Fallujah has been very good. Iraqi political realities are a legitimate constraining factor, given the overall mission objective. The actions in Fallujah, and the south, reflect a savvy and patient grasp of the situation.
In an interview with Al-Wasat magazine published on May 3, 2004, âAbu Usama,â the head of the âSalafist Groupâ resisting the US forces in Fallujah, âAbu Usama,â said that the foreign hostages and the American soldier held with them are well treated. Their release will be negotiated in the future. Abu Usama, who gave himself this nickname in honor of bin Laden, affirmed his association with al-Qaeda and also assured that he âspeaks for Abu Musab Zarqawiâ. He denied Zarqawiâs involvement in the latest bloody attacks that targeted Shiâite religious centers, assuring that âthe Americansâ losses in Fallujah exceeded by far what had been announced. He said that, during the latest battles, 15 US helicopters were taken down, and more than 90 armored cars and tanks were destroyed with weapons developed by the combatants themselvesâ.
Abu Usama, who calls himself the âPrinceâ of combatants, added that the âal-Qaeda organization is spiritual not militaryâ, and that âevery Mujahid truthful to God is a Qaeda memberâ. He assured that âthey are fighting the Americans because they invaded Iraq, and because they are blasphemers, as Godâs word should come before everythingâ. To a question if the Salafists viewed Shiâites and Sufis as their enemies, based on the fact that the Salafistâs ideology considers Shiites and Sufis blasphemers, Abu Usama said: âIf they collaborate with the occupation, then they are our enemies. And if they take no action, they are silent devils that must be killed when necessary. That is when they become a danger to Islam and Muslims⊠Such is the case in Iraq because they are not fighting the Blasphemers and are helping them get established in Muslim territoriesâ.
Repeatedly avoiding to admit if he was a Zarqawi follower, Abu Usama fervently denied any involvement of Zarqawi in the assassination of (Ayatollah) Al Hakim, the Ashoura events, and the explosions that targeted Iraqis, saying: âThose accusations are lies made up by the American-Zionists to portray a bad image of the Jihad. I swear by the Great God that, every targeting in Iraq of the Shiites, the Sunnis, and the Kurds was arranged for by the CIA and the Zionist Mossadâ. He acknowledged that, even though Shiâites and Sufis are considered Blasphemers, and their killing is recommended in their ideology, they took no part in those operations and were not aware of them. In a reference to Muqtada Al Sadrâs last âkhutbaâ [speech] in which he swore to defend their sanctities, he said: âI would like to tell him [Al Sadr]: âyour sanctities are Muslim sanctities that we respect. We, in the âSalaf Salehâ, have not taken any military action against them up until this momentââ.
He disagreed with his interviewer that citizens of countries that did not participate in the war on Iraq should not be held hostages, âfor all blaspheming countries are openly or secretly allies of the USâ. When asked about the number of Mujahideen, their nationalities [if they were only Iraqis, or Arabs and foreigners], and who supplies them with weapons ready to use in their confrontations with the Americans, he said: âThanks to God, we have Brothers bearers of the highest scientific diplomas. They are capable, with the help of God, to manufacture the weapons, not only finance their supplyâ. Towards the end of the interview, Abu Usama acknowledged the possibility of joining forces with parties whose ideology differs from theirs. However, their allies share the same beliefs. He then received a message that âthe Americans have been destroyedâ, as he described it, and that he had to let the interviewer go, only after confiscating the videotape the interviewer was using to tape the interview, as many of the Mujahideen had their faces uncovered.
Posted by: Paul Moloney ||
05/07/2004 3:07:53 AM ||
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"He disagreed with his interviewer that citizens of countries that did not participate in the war on Iraq should not be held hostages, âfor all blaspheming countries are openly or secretly allies of the US"
The best sign that we will win eventually is this sort of boneheaded thinking.
Europe et al will have no choice but to assist in wiping out this menace.
Posted by: Carl in N.H ||
05/07/2004 12:21 Comments ||
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#2
Abu Usama said: âIf they collaborate with the occupation, then they are our enemies. And if they take no action, they are silent devils that must be killed when necessary.
"If they run, the're V.C., if they dont run. th're well disciplined V.C."
Our jawans are for khilafat
According to daily Pakistan, Major General (Retd) Zaheerul Islam Abbasi told an audience at Jama Masjid Ghulam Rasul in Gujranwala that there was no organisation named Al Qaeda and no one named Osama bin Laden. They existed only in the CNN. He said that khilafat did not exist in any Islamic state but if the people sided with him and his party Azmat Islam Movement then he had no doubt that it would come. He said he was court-martialled for having worked for khilafat. He said the Taliban were brave and did not lay down arms like General Niazi in East Pakistan. He added that today the army officers were all secular but the jawans (soldiers) were for khilafat. General Zaheerul Islam was caught and punished for treason in 1995. His party Azmat Islam was earlier called Hizbullah.
Nargis did not dance!
According to Khabrain filmstar and dancer Nargis did not dance during a play in a local theatre in Lahore. The audience had bought tickets for Rs 500 and Rs 1000 in the expectation that she would break into dance during the scenes. When she did not take the floor, the house became angry and started breaking the furniture. Nargis was actually to dance on four songs but the government had sent in a team of inspectors to see that no dance would take place. Every time there was a song the audience called out for her to dance but when she did not they resorted to violence. Many people saved their lives by running away.
Protest with âheejrasâ and donkeys
According to Nawa-e-Waqt, the Cricket Welfare Association of Sant Nagar in Lahore took out a procession to protest the defeat of the Pakistani team in matches against the visiting team. The Association was of the opinion that Pakistan Cricket Board had not been able to stop the national team from being defeated through a conspiracy. The procession was spearheaded by heejras (eunuchs) and donkeys to show the low regard in which the protesters held the Cricket boards.
Blasphemer turns wild
According to Nawa-e-Waqt, in Dhariala Jalib near Pind Dadan Khan a PPP leader Diwan Hashmat first blasphemed against the Holy Prophet PBUH during a gathering in a mosque in Pindi Syedan then farted made foul noises in the presence of pious citizens. On this one Bashir Jindran went to the police and registered a case of blasphemy against him. On this Hashmat became an absconder and later went to the village Dhariala and fired upon Bashir Jindran and killed him. Hashmat was later caught by the police after an encounter.
"Yez got nuttin' on me, coppers! Da witness is dead!"
Baloch nation wonât allow Gwadar
Quoted in Nawa-e-Waqt, chief of Balochistan National Party Sardar Ataullah Mengal said that if investment in Gwadar was against the wishes of the Baloch the investors would not go back alive. He said Gwadar was being made for the Americans. The Americans would run away but the Punjabis would be unable to flee. He said the Punjabis were determined to convert the Baloch into a minority in their own province. The Baloch would not allow their identity to be destroyed in the name of investment, he said.
"We don't want a port! Prosperity would bring them dang furriners, sniffin' 'round our wimmin!"
Posted by: Paul Moloney ||
05/07/2004 1:36:35 AM ||
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He said Gwadar was being made for the Americans. The Americans would run away but the Punjabis would be unable to flee.
Well, I know that I just can't get up in the morning without a nice fresh bowl of gwadar.
Hours after American forces seized the Najaf governor's office, militiamen of a radical cleric dug their gravesin, taking positions behind earthen mounds in the holy city and firing mortar shells and small arms at a U.S. base. The defiance late Thursday came amid concerns that U.S. troops were about to move directly against the anti-American cleric, Muqtada al-Sadr. American soldiers responded with a heavy barrage of 120mm mortar fire, U.S. jets streaked across the night sky, and plumes of smoke rose over the east bank of the Euphrates.
"Hand me that dynamite, Colorado, and stand back!"
Earlier Thursday, U.S. forces moved to outlying areas of Najaf, drawing militants from the city center and enabling other troops to seize the two-story governor's office without resistance. An estimated 40 hired hands militiamen were killed in gunfights gunbattles outside the Burdette Ranch city, said Capt. Roger Maynulet, a tank company commander with the Army's 2nd Armored Cavalry Regiment. Afterward, militiamen cowered took cover behind buildings as American helicopters flew overhead. An increased number of local no-goods fighters were seen in the town square city center as Burdette's boys the cleric's army tried to regroup after losing the hotel governor's office. ''We will fight until the last drop of our blood,'' said Dhia Shami, behind a water trough dirt barricade. ''We expect the Americans to retreat,'' said militiaman Malek Holeicha. ''We are fighting for our faith. They don't have any faith.''
"Hear that, Dude? They 'pect us to back down. Well what are we goin' to do 'bout that, eh Dude?"
"Shuddup, Stumpy, and git me a beer."
At the city's saloon Imam Ali shrine, one of the holiest sites in The Pecos Shiite Islam, a coffin wrapped in a dirty sheet an Iraqi flag was brought in apparently one of the dead from the fighting. ''This is a martyr for Muqtada,'' mourners chanted.
"I spied a dead cowboy,
Wrapped up in white linen,
Wrapped up in white linen
And cold as the clay!"
"Stumpy! Tell the undertaker he'll be busy today."
"I'll get to it, Chance, I surely will."
Later, a U.S. convoy of deputies Humvees leaving the Najaf area was ambushed twice in 10 minutes by rustlers insurgents firing rocket-propelled grenades and automatic rifles from rooftops. An AP reporter saw five militants apparently killed in retaliatory fire.
"Chance, you think Colorado is 'bout as fast as I was in my day?"
"I'd hate to live on the difference, Dude."
Coalition troops exchanged gunfire with dozens of al-Sadr militiamen in Karbala, 50 miles north of Najaf. A witness told the Daily Gazette Associated Press Television News that deputies troops fired on the outlaws insurgents and destroyed four wagons buses of Pakistani gunslingers pilgrims, which were seen burning in hell. The witness said ''three or four'' Pakistanis were killed.
"Pour it on them Burdette boys!"
Posted by: Steve White ||
05/07/2004 12:44:56 AM ||
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What kind of moronic mujadim digs in behind dirt ramparts when there are still plenty of women and children to hide behind?
Posted by: Super Hose ||
05/07/2004 3:24 Comments ||
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Posted by: N Guard ||
05/07/2004 9:00 Comments ||
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#5
"You're not as smart as your brother, Muqtada. He sees Stumpy sitting in here and realizes that if his men try to come in here to get you you're going to get accidentally shot."
Posted by: Steve ||
05/07/2004 9:09 Comments ||
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#6
LOL. Someone needs to return "Rio Bravo" to Block Busters before you wear out the tape. The Duke is probably looking down and getting a chuckle or two from the running comentaries.
A plan to disarm Afghanistan's warring militias ahead of landmark elections is "seriously in jeopardy" because of obstruction by powerful commanders, the United Nations warned Thursday.
Say it ain't so!
Whoa! Careful with that feather! You almost knocked me over! Who'da ever expected that?
The Afghan Ministry of Defense adopted a plan in late March to disarm 40 percent of the country's estimated 100,000 irregular fighters by June 30. But the U.N.'s top official in Afghanistan said the plan, which President Hamid Karzai used to drum up billions of dollars in aid pledges at a donor conference in Germany, has not yet begun. "The possibility that it will be completed in time is now seriously in jeopardy," U.N. Special Representative Jean Arnault said in a statement read by his flunky spokesman. Karzai vowed at a Berlin conference in April to tackle feuding warlords and militias, many of whom are suspected of involvement in the country's booming drug trade. But the Defense Ministry, headed by powerful faction leader Mohammed Fahim, has been slow to implement the disarmament plan, raising suspicion about his intentions.
"Yon Fahim has a lean and hungry look!"
U.N. spokesman Manoel de Almeida e Silva said Fahim's ministry had been informed of the world body's concerns. "I think it boils down to the will of those who control military formations and weapons," he said.
Outstanding command of the obvious. He must work for the U.N.!
U.N. officials say three key commanders for the Tajik-dominated Jamiat faction - to which Fahim also belongs - are stalling on handing over lists of soldiers to be disarmed. The three are Herat Gov. Ismail Khan and army corps commanders Gen. Mohammed Daoud and Gen. Atta Mohammed. Men loyal to Khan and Mohammed have fought with rival militias in recent months. Afghan presidential spokesman Jawed Ludin said "a lot of work" needed to be done to reach the disarmament target, but he insisted reluctant commanders would have to bend eventually. "Some commanders may drag their feet or express worries and there may be challenges," Ludin said. "But the government is really serious about this. There's no doubt this will happen." He said "all pressure" would be used to persuade them, but declined to elaborate.
"I can say no more!"
Arnault said the units to be slimmed or scrapped had no role in fighting militants, organized crime or drug trafficking. "Quite the contrary, many of them have been in the past two years involved in factional fighting which is a continuing cause of instability and of suffering," Arnault said. U.N. and Afghan officials had identified job opportunities for all the affected soldiers, he said.
"Mahmoud, we got a job lined up for you. You'll be picking strawberries and avocadoes."
"There ain't no avocadoes in Herat!"
"Who said Herat? You're headed to the San Joaquin Valley!"
I'm still trying to figure why no one's sent them south, to fight the Pakistani invaders Taliban remnants in Paktika. Either the Pakistani invaders Taliban remnants would be brought under control, or the size of the armed and dangerous population would be significantly reduced.
Posted by: Steve White ||
05/07/2004 12:23:31 AM ||
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Military chiefs from the 26 NATO allies made little progress Thursday in raising troops to expand the alliance peacekeeping force in Afghanistan, officials said.
The Belgian Barbers' Corps doesn't want to go, huh?
NATO's top soldier, however, said he was confident the alliance would meet a late June target for expanding the force into five more Afghan cities despite nations' reluctance to come forward with the required troops and equipment. "We need more, that's clear," said German Gen. Harald Kujat, chairman of NATO's military committee. NATO military and civilian officials had expressed hope the two-day meeting of defense chiefs that wrapped up Tuesday would signal progress on raising troops for what NATO says is its top-priority mission. NATO Secretary General Jaap de Hoop Scheffer repeated an appeal for nations to come forward, saying the Afghan mission is a key test of NATO's credibility.
"C'mon, guys! Kick in, please?"
Allied governments agreed six months ago to a U.N. request to expand the force, which has 6,000 troops in the capital Kabul and the northern city of Kunduz. But they have balked at providing specialist troops and equipment for the costly and potentially dangerous operation. NATO's top operational commander, U.S. Gen. James Jones, said last month that nations have committed about 85 percent of the forces he needs to expand the mission.
Any bets on the eventual Spanish contribution to an expanded force?
Posted by: Steve White ||
05/07/2004 12:13:30 AM ||
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#2
NATO Secretary General Jaap de Hoop Scheffer repeated an appeal for nations to come forward, saying the Afghan mission is a key test of NATO's credibility.
#3
just let it die...let the euros build thier own forces and make the hard decisions for themselves..bread and butter or guns..with the current welfare state of erurope it will be painfull..
the husband of my wifes sister (my wife is from brazil) is married to an italian. a few years he had an accident and was partially paralysed and cannot work..well he gets more money through disability than working..go figure..
Posted by: Dan ||
05/07/2004 13:36 Comments ||
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A multi-volume chronology and reference guide set detailing three years of the Mexican Drug War between 2010 and 2012.
Rantburg.com and borderlandbeat.com correspondent and author Chris Covert presents his first non-fiction work detailing
the drug and gang related violence in Mexico.
Chris gives us Mexican press dispatches of drug and gang war violence
over three years, presented in a multi volume set intended to chronicle the death, violence and mayhem which has
dominated Mexico for six years.
Rantburg was assembled from recycled algorithms in the United States of America. No
trees were destroyed in the production of this weblog. We did hurt some, though. Sorry.
