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2003-04-08 International

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Posted by Steve White 2003-04-08 01:56 am|| || Front Page|| [7 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 Statement by justice Jackson on War Trials Agreement; August 12, 1945

"We must make clear to the Germans that the wrong for which their fallen leaders are on trial is not that they lost the war, but that they started it. And we must not allow ourselves to be drawn into a trial of the causes of the war, for our position is that no grievances or policies will justify resort to aggressive war. It is utterly renounced and condemned as an instrument of policy."

Posted by True German Ally 2003-04-08 02:43:59|| 2003-04-08 02:43:59|| Front Page Top

#2 In these days the word Germans should be replaced with "Americans"

Posted by Murat 2003-04-08 02:52:39|| 2003-04-08 02:52:39|| Front Page Top

#3 Still defending Al Qaida and Saddam, I see, Murat. Your subculture is directly and provably responsible for their acts. Without you and the facetious sound-bite reaction so beloved of conformist power-seekers, they could never have hoped to preserve their demonic power through terrorism and defiance. You, personally, and every like-minded terror-apologist and anti-war hypocrite, are entitled to occupy the Julius Streicher chair at this new tribunal. You are a hate-monger, a bigot, and an arrogant buffoon. You and your cohorts have incited this terrible war. Your world has crumbled in the fires of Baghdad, and now you must pay the price.

Posted by Atomic Conspiracy 2003-04-08 03:28:17|| [www.nuclearspace.com] 2003-04-08 03:28:17|| Front Page Top

#4 I see a defending of truth by âpeace mongersâ is called nowadays defending Al Qaida and Saddam, very ingenious. Me a hypocrite? Look whoâs talking, where are the Chemical and biological Mass destruction weapons which supposedly should legitimize this slaughter of a nation?
Sure buddy me and my cohorts have incited this terrible war of ~~butchering and looting~~ liberation. Ah well you are going to introduce democracy, of course beginning with a military junta that will run the country for the next few years which eventually will be replaced by a puppet regime. I laugh at the British and American reports putting the civilian casualties on 2000 at most, let sarcasm rule.

Posted by Murat 2003-04-08 03:59:19|| 2003-04-08 03:59:19|| Front Page Top

#5 Murat your team lost! Not because Allah hates your team, but because you joined the wrong team. And if you continue to join the wrong side you will be beaten every time. The middle east needs change in a big way. Start by joining the right side for change, and not totalitarianism; then you will be on the winning team.

Posted by George 2003-04-08 04:15:43|| 2003-04-08 04:15:43|| Front Page Top

#6 Murat,
Why don't you want a democratic Iraq as your neighbor? Do you wish for chaos and failed democracy and civil war so that you will be proven right, even thought the effects for Turkey would be bad? Are you sure the Weapons of Mass Destruction are a myth invented by the Americans?

Perhaps you wish for a peaceful, democratic, prosperous Iraq but refuse to accept that the Americans can pull it off. What other possibilities exist?

Posted by Tokyo Taro 2003-04-08 04:22:58|| 2003-04-08 04:22:58|| Front Page Top

#7 I dunno George, those Islamo-fascists are always saying the evil 'Mericans "...will be defeated! God willing!" Apparently God is not willing to side with terrorists and those who rape and torture the innocent.

Posted by B. 2003-04-08 04:26:27|| 2003-04-08 04:26:27|| Front Page Top

#8 Tokyo Taro, I do wish a democratic Iraq, but not trough carnage and occupation and at the burden of thousands of innocent people losing their lives. By the way what is your definition for installing a junta regime to replace Saddam, democracy? How about the fact that the occupation power can decide about the fate of that countries natural recourses, in this case oil, isnât this an equivalent of looting making Iraq per definition a colony. And if there are Weapons of Mass Destruction, then why didnât Saddam use it or there has not been found any, maybe it is an invented myth indeed (a just cause). Naivity is not a blessing pall.

Posted by Murat 2003-04-08 04:51:33|| 2003-04-08 04:51:33|| Front Page Top

#9 Murat:
We are not Europe, we are not France, and we are not the Soviet Union. We are a very different people and nation over hear, and therefore, do things differently for different reason. We have already discussed and planned for the return to Iraqi civilian rule, once the situation allows. There will be a military government for a period of time, but only for as long as it takes to get Iraq back on its feet.

As for the thousands of innocents, not even the Iraqi Information Ministry is claiming that level of carnage. And if there were another way to do it, without war, don't you think we would have? What do you think we are, Europeans? We know all to well what wars cost and how people die in them. We have gone out of our way to minimize the civilian casualties in this. Not that folks like you would even care, but the Iraqi people do care, and will care, long after we are gone.

As for you charge of "looting", come on, guy. Have you not heard our President, our Secretaries of Defense and State all say that the Iraqi oil belongs to the Iraqi people? The money from their oil will go to the Iraqi people, the American people will see to that. There is too big a political risk to the administration to "loot" as you call it.

Why did Saddam not use his weapons? Well that is a good question and one of little importance now. Perhaps you would be happier if he did, but think on this for a moment. Coalition troops have protective gear, the civilian population does not. You say you don't want a carnage, but that is exactly what you would get, if Saddam provided the proof of his weapons.

[Saddam may be out of action. In any event, Saddam will not deploy them himself, but order a subordinate to do it for him. Whether that subordinate is capable of doing it, has the time to do it before being removed by us, or even goes through with such mass murder, these are all large varables]

You don't like how we are removing Saddam, fine. The problem is that it is working, and what comes next will be better and more in accordance with what you say you want, than any of the alternatives presented. So what has you upset, I have to admit to some confusion. Unless you think we are just like France, which we ain't.

Posted by Ben 2003-04-08 05:20:31|| 2003-04-08 05:20:31|| Front Page Top

#10 Murat,
I'm not naive, I'm just not jumping to conclusions yet like you are. There are other possible, or likely explanations why WMD have not been used or discovered yet (to name one of many, Saddam is obviously trying to win the PR war in the world's press). I know you're a skeptic, buy why don't you apply the same skepticism to Iraqi claims as you do to America's? If any are discovered, will you automatically dismiss them as fake or planted?

Carnage happens in war and Saddam is not leaving without a fight. Everyone, including you, knows that thousands of innocents were dying and suffering under Hussein. Except they didn't get primetime coverage in the world's media. You accuse us of being naive but do you not recognize your own selective outrage? The carnage will only stop when the Baathists are gone. So if you care about Iraqis like you claim, why not pray for swift US victory?

As for occupation, again, I'll wait and see. You are already certain that it is nothing but a grab for territory and resources. The US will be in Iraq to help provide security in the power vacuum that follows Saddam's removal and rebuild the economy and infrastructure. You know these things don't happen overnight or in a matter of weeks. So every month they are in Iraq rebuilding, you will holler "Colonialism!" If they were to leave you would cream "Abandonment!"

The US knows it must contend with this type of emotional response but it would be nice if reasonable people like yourself stopped to consider that, in the short and long-term, Turkey's best interests are perfectly in-line with Bush's stated objectives. I'm not saying you should not be completely unskeptical of Bush. But since this has already started, shouldn't you at least give it a chance? On the other hand, if all those (cynical, hypocritically self-righteous) governments opposing US action succeed (not likely) in undermining the US's aims, the results will be bad for the US (and you, Chirac, Assad, etc. would cheer) but awful for Iraqis (another 25 years or more of war, poverty, and oppression), as well as Turkey (long-term refugee problems, Kurdish separatism, oil-supply unstability). It would be a loss for the whole world. If I were you, I would join me in wishing Bush great success with the War, the Transition Government, and eventual Iraqi Democracy. Unless, of course, for you the idea of a successful Bush is worse than the prospect of continued chaos, tyrany and suffering. If that's the case, go ahead and continue bashing the US.

Posted by Tokyo Taro 2003-04-08 05:44:48|| 2003-04-08 05:44:48|| Front Page Top

#11 I should add, Murat, that you are correct in stating that a Bush installed junta will not equal Iraqi democracy. Iraqi democracy will come after that when they vote. This will give Iraq a legitimate sovereign government (not a coerced vote like Saddam's farce last year). Until that is established, they need someone to govern and those people you will call American Puppets but at least they wont torture people who critcize them, sponsor terrorism, and attack their neighbors (unless Syria refuses to stop sending Jihadis and weapons into Iraq).

The Iraqis tried numerous times to get rid of Hussein without the Americans (and once with them) but Saddam succeeded in gassing, slaughtering or torturing them all. At this stage, there was no chance without the U.S. military. If King George had used mustard gas on Philadelphia, maybe America would never have achieved independence by themselves (ok with a little help from France) either.

If the US wanted to snatch oil wells, we could have just grabbed Kuwait's without much cost or lives lost.

Why am I telling you this, Murat? You are smart enough to know this already but angry or ideological enough to stubbornly refuse to acknowledge this. Am I wasting breath?

Posted by Tokyo Taro 2003-04-08 06:17:31|| 2003-04-08 06:17:31|| Front Page Top

#12 Tokyo Taro, you are wasting your breath I'm afraid. Murat's not worth the effort of dialogue. He does at least bother to look around for opinions different from his own, but doesn't buy any of them, preferring to stick with his prejudices irrespective of conflicting evidence. If you see a corpse on the street, step over it, don't try to resuscitate it.

Posted by Bulldog 2003-04-08 06:43:06|| 2003-04-08 06:43:06|| Front Page Top

#13 In these days the word Germans should be replaced with "Americans

Murat,sounds like those sour grapes are getting mighty bitter.Guess we could include Turkey in that statement too.Not only for past War Crimes,but also it's current perfidity and collusion.
If Turkey had let the 4I.D.through.This war would have been over 7-10 days ago,saving hundreds of dead and injured.Your tacid support of Saddam left him with the impression he could stay in power if he could just hold out long enough.
What happen with your fear of the Kurds?
Seems they didn't cause any trouble for you,on the contrary,they stayed in thier own yard.
Many of the family's of the dead and maimed have only the sanctimonious,money-grubbing,hypocrites like Turkey and the Axis of Weasals to blame.
You remind me of the far right here in the U.S.,just cannot admit that you may have been wrong even when the truth slaps you in the face.

Saw on the news that the"Chicks with Dicks"(Dixie Chicks),after a month of cancelled concerts,and plumetting records sells,now say it was just a joke.
Ha,Ha,I hope you are having a good laugh,Dixies.

Posted by raptor 2003-04-08 06:43:31|| 2003-04-08 06:43:31|| Front Page Top

#14 Tokyo Taro and Ben, you both bring forward nice and appreciative intentions of removing dictators and bringing democracy, all without supposed self benefit earning the US a place in heaven, but one question though, why is the US so selective in these charity operations.
What about Rwanda an African nation where at least 10 fold of people died of much worse oppression than Saddam could ever inflict (donât take this as a Saddam defending), secondly if bringing democracy is the course of this stimulus, then why did you guys withhold the Kuwaiti people from it, wouldnât a democracy be more appropriate than an artificial monarchy there? I could summon you at least a dozen of countries in the class of Iraq, why this selectivity of such an US charity operation for the sheer love of the Iraqi people (who by the way have shown little cheer to their liberators)?

Posted by Murat 2003-04-08 06:58:12|| 2003-04-08 06:58:12|| Front Page Top

#15 Murat's a troll whose comments, as far as I am concerned, are equivalent to farts.

Posted by Ptah 2003-04-08 07:04:32|| [www.crusaderwarcollege.org] 2003-04-08 07:04:32|| Front Page Top

#16 Oh Murat, are you upset that between Turkey and the United States only one of us is under the rule of law, whereas the other is under the rule of ululating backwards Islamic fundamentalists masquerading as responsible statesmen?

You shouldn't let that show, your "Constitution envy..."

Posted by Brian 2003-04-08 07:07:43|| 2003-04-08 07:07:43|| Front Page Top

#17 Murat: "Naivity is not a blessing..."

You've got that right, Murat. Neither is delusion, which also seems to be characteristic of many of Iraq's neighbors (and Iraq's Information Minister). The ~~years~~ centuries of bullshit are over. You're either going to become peaceful, productive Islamic world citizens or you're going to suffer severely at the hands of the infidels, because we infidels aren't taking this bullshit anymore. Your choice.

Posted by Tom 2003-04-08 07:29:23|| 2003-04-08 07:29:23|| Front Page Top

#18 I have followed this war from the sabre rattling to the present.The coverage from the press has been great and the blog sites are even better. With that having been said I haven't seen one report that puts our intrests in a perspective that the indigenous people of the middle east can understand.The first fact we have never occupied a country to try and displace the inhabitants or their culture.This country was founded on a platform of religeous tolerance, not as a despotic, dictatorial land grab.We have never kept any territory from military action except the area we needed to bury our fallen. Iraq's former government was untrustworthy this is not to say that we have deposed any country for this lack of character, but they also had wmd and were seeking more lethal types.The care that our military is using to ensure the least amount of casualties, and colateral damage has not been stressed enough by the opposition press.
There seems to be confusion on the issue of Iraq's oil resources,and our intentions.The U.S.government has repeatedly said the oil is for the Iraqi people.To put the subject in another perspective the amount of oil that is being pumped pre-war was 3 million barrels per day at a price of $30 per barrel this is 30-40 billion dollars per year gross dollars.To be objective twenty percent cost of production and delivery leaves 24-32 billion net dollars which is 1.5 percent of our total economy.For anyone to argue that we would spend 100's of billions to prosecute this war, and ensure the peace afterwards for this relatively small return is not being objective.
To summarize yes we will defend our interests do we want to invade sovereign countries, no.Did we start this war over oil, no. Did we start this war because Iraq's former government was threatening our sence of security, yes.Will we do it again, you bet.

Posted by Themiddle 2003-04-08 07:41:15|| 2003-04-08 07:41:15|| Front Page Top

#19 TGA - fine quote - and your point is?

Posted by liberalhawk 2003-04-08 08:29:53|| 2003-04-08 08:29:53|| Front Page Top

#20 Murat,
There is a fundamental misunderstanding here. We go out of our way to point out that our motives for this war are not related to conquest and oppression. That's Saddam. You then point to us and say "No! You are only in it for yourselves! Look at all of your flaws!"

This is a false contradiction. You are half-correct in that: U.S. foreign policy is always self-interested...and flawed (perfection being impossible in this world). The question is: Are our interests the same as Turkey's? Yes! Is a war-torn, impoverished, corrupt, unfree, undemocratic, unstable Iraq in our interests? No, no, no, no! We'll only see more terrorism, eventually turning into state-sponsored WMD terrorism. So a peaceful, prosperous, democratic Iraq is in our interests. Bush doesn't have to be a saint or American policy based on altruism. The benefits for the Iraqi people and America (and Turkey) are mutual. These are the same principles of free trade. People who don't get this are the ones who are stuck in the old Colonial Power Grab, balance-of-power, mind-set - namely old Europe (Turkey is an old Colonial power too). Or they're neo-Marxists (European social democrats not being too far from that). Britain and Spain are old colonial powers but Blair and Aznar understand.

The Arab and Muslim world refuses to believe it could be anything but conquest. No amount of talking will convince them. Only by following up our promises with action will some of them reconsider. Even if we achieve a little success rebuilding Iraq, most will probably still hate us. But that doesn't matter. What matters is if they decide the need copy some of free-Iraq's reforms in order to compete and not collapse further into the cesspit of economic woe and violent ideological extremism. If that happens, then Turkey will no longer be the only country in the region that is not a third-world dictatorship/terrorist factory. Iran would probably be the first country to go in that direction.

Sorry for not discussing Rwanda. My only comment is that Rwanda is proof that waiting for UN permission is a recipie for disaster. Somolia was not in our interest so we gave up when it turned bloody. No one benefited, least of all the Somalis. The Somalis sabotaged themselves and probably ruined any chance of us doing anything in Rwanda. One more Middle East Country with an appetite for self destruction.

Posted by Tokyo Taro 2003-04-08 08:48:11|| 2003-04-08 08:48:11|| Front Page Top

#21 Yes, Murat is a troll. But he's OUR troll...

Has anybody mentioned to him about the cypriots yet? Or the Armenians, or the Kurds?

Wouldn't it be nice if the Kurds got their own state - they've proven themselves capable of democratic, secular, tolerant self-rule, with no less than 4 female judges! They deserve their own state soon, and Didn't George W Bush recently say words to the effect of "Good luck to the Kurds, I hope they get their state"?

Posted by anon1 2003-04-08 09:16:08|| 2003-04-08 09:16:08|| Front Page Top

#22 "Yes, Murat is a troll. But he's OUR troll..."

LOL anon1.

Posted by Bulldog 2003-04-08 09:30:49|| 2003-04-08 09:30:49|| Front Page Top

#23 I've come to the conclusion that Murat participates only to tweek and tease. He just wants attention. He has never made any criticism of the Baathist regime nor of his own people/govt. He never answers questions put to him re Turkish/Ottoman treatment of Kurds, Armenians, Greeks, Greek-Cypriots, and Bulgarians. Yeah, Murat, they detest the Turks, and there are root causes.

Murat reminds me of a Turk I went to university with in the '70's. We took the same class on Central American history. US actions there have often been shameful and I'd say that the professor brought that out. The Turk was the number one critic of the US in the class and kept saying that nobody trusted us in the world because of such actions. Fair enough. After about 3 months of his daily comments, I finally asked him if Turkey had met the same lack of trust vis a vis Armenians and Greeks since the Turks were responsible for a lot of carnage in the aftermath of the collapse of the Ottoman empire (Just read Hemingway's account of the Turkish slaughter of Greeks living in Izmir in the early '20's) You know, I was just asking. This guy exploded in my face and DENIED slaughter ever happened. It was the Greeks and Armenians who wanted to destroy the great Turkish nation, blah, blah, blah. He sounded just like the Serbs explaining how the Muslims of Sczbernica (sp?) died. Just battle field casualties. I thought of this incident the other day when I read some more Murat drivel.

So pal, we're on to you. It's too bad because I lived in Riyadh from 1997-2000 and met many Turks who were generous with their time and hospitality. So let's hear some well-thought out discussions on your part rather than Cold War 3rd-world 70's BS and I might respect you. Otherwise, you're just like a fly in my soup. I'll just dump you in the toilet and flush.

Posted by Michael 2003-04-08 10:32:31|| 2003-04-08 10:32:31|| Front Page Top

#24 Murat: I was wondering what happened to you. Honestly, I had hoped that the whole Muslim shame/honor thing had completely overcome you and that you'd disappeared for good.

Posted by 11A5S 2003-04-08 11:10:09|| 2003-04-08 11:10:09|| Front Page Top

#25 "why is the US so selective in these charity operations. What about Rwanda an African nation where at least 10 fold of people died of much worse oppression than Saddam could ever inflict (donât take this as a Saddam defending), secondly if bringing democracy is the course of this stimulus, then why did you guys withhold the Kuwaiti people from it, wouldnât a democracy be more appropriate than an artificial monarchy there? "

Murat: Different administration entirely. Your hero, and Europe's, BillyJeff used military force to insure popular support here at home or to defelct attention away from his problems here, not for the just purpose of removing repressive regimes from power or defending innocent people being terrorized.

Be patient. We'll get to various other bad guys in due time (Somalia (big payback time coming there eventually), North Korea, Zimbabwe, maybe even Turkey).

Posted by FOTSGreg 2003-04-08 12:02:36|| 2003-04-08 12:02:36|| Front Page Top

#26 bulldog: If you see a corpse on the street, step over it, don't try to resuscitate it. LOL!

I don't think he's looking around for a different viewpoint as much as he is looking for converts to his blind faith. Not that he would really know what to do with a convert if he found one. He's like the Jesus Freak's on the corner, it gives him a sense of purpose and worth to shake his finger condenscendingly at the infidels.

Posted by becky 2003-04-08 12:55:08|| 2003-04-08 12:55:08|| Front Page Top

#27 Murat,

You, not those who support this war, are the one who is blind to the suffering of the Iraqi people. I won't even group you in with the well-intentioned but misguided liberals here in the US who protest in what they believe to be the best interest of the Iraqis.

You are a knee-jerk anti-American who is bitter and ashamed that your country asserted its "sovereignty" and got severely burnt. Turkey will suffer because they did not assist the US. It was people like you in the Turkish parliament who played such stupid destructive games with our goodwill. Now, all you can do is sit on the sidelines and take potshots while the Turkish economy goes down the SHITTER, the coalition accumulates the good will of the Iraqi people, and the US enjoys the help of their new ally, the Kurds.

The only people I have seen protest this war are those who are too weak and unprincipled to do anything but talk, and those who are losing something because of our intervention (or both). Yes, it's true that there will be casualties. However, Iraqi exiles (who have lived under Saddam) and civilian Iraqis in Basrah, Najaf, and Nasiriyah have all come out in support of the people who are ridding them of the brutal status quo.

Frankly I doubt the Iraqis give two shits whether the tanks rolling into their cities are American, British, or (haha) French. They are just glad to be FREE. As for the criticism of the small-minded and craven, I honestly don't give a shit what they/you think, and I truly doubt the Iraqis do either.

Every time I see a picture of a wounded Iraqi civilian...my heart goes out to them and I feel a loss. But that sorrow does not lessen the value of setting a people free from tyranny. If seeing results such as the one linked below can't convince you of the value of this campaign, then you are hijacking humanitarian concerns to further your own pathetic insecurities.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&cid=1514&e=4&u=/afp/20030408/wl_mideast_afp/iraq_war_marines_prison_030408163048

Posted by mjh 2003-04-08 13:14:02|| 2003-04-08 13:14:02|| Front Page Top

#28 I'm rather surprised how much attention my quote has raised. It served two purposes:

1) to show that the Germans were taught a lesson in 1945 which, according to the same nation that taught it to us, we have learned too well. I suppose that most of you would no longer agree with Jackson's quote about war.

2) it was Murat who replaced "Germans" with "Americans". I had "Iraqis" in mind. Because Saddam started that war... in 1990. It's time that it is brought to an end.

Still I believe that this tribunal should not be held by Americans but by a neutral stance. Nuremberg was frowned upon by many Germans because it was seen as "Siegerjustiz" (justice by the victors). While the Americans tried to maintain a certain fairness the Russians had far less moral ground. At that time Stalin had murdered millions of his own people. Millions languished in prison camps which weren't much better than German concentration camps. And before you yell out: I have seen both.

Posted by True German Ally 2003-04-08 16:25:28|| 2003-04-08 16:25:28|| Front Page Top

#29 Is it still a compulsory part of education in Germany to visit a concentration camp? Or have they done away with it?

Posted by RW 2003-04-08 17:27:51|| 2003-04-08 17:27:51|| Front Page Top

#30 It still is. But I was referring to the times when they still worked.

Posted by True German Ally 2003-04-08 17:46:44|| 2003-04-08 17:46:44|| Front Page Top

#31 TGA: i have respect for you

Posted by anon1 2003-04-08 22:47:43|| 2003-04-08 22:47:43|| Front Page Top

#32 --Ah well you are going to introduce democracy, of course beginning with a military junta that will run the country for the next few years which eventually will be replaced by a puppet regime.--

Murat, why do I think the Japanese would be extremely insulted at that statement?

Maybe if we still ran the show there, they wouldn't be in a 20 year recession, but, hey, can't mess w/the culture. So drag down the world they must.

Posted by Anonymous 2003-04-09 01:23:33|| 2003-04-09 01:23:33|| Front Page Top

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