Article

2003-09-11 Europe

Attack on EU train as Estonia poll turns sour

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Posted by Bulldog 2003-09-11 7:26:48 AM|| || Front Page|| [4 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 easier to convince the EU that this is terrorism...after all, they're not just killing Jooooos, right?

Posted by Frank G 2003-9-11 8:38:16 AM|| 2003-9-11 8:38:16 AM|| Front Page Top

#2 Aris is gonna be pissed

Posted by Paul Moloney 2003-9-11 8:51:23 AM|| 2003-9-11 8:51:23 AM|| Front Page Top

#3 And this same EU along with the UN claim that the US is trying to create it's own empire. I guess diplomatic trickery/heavy handedness can be just as effective as military force in Empire building. The difference between the Communist Russian threat of old and the Socialist threat of the EU in the present is a gun pointed at your head vs. a sly smile and hidden dagger.

Posted by Paul 2003-9-11 10:13:17 AM|| 2003-9-11 10:13:17 AM|| Front Page Top

#4 Paul> Actually the difference between the two is the difference between freedom and tyranny. The difference between respect for human rights and totalitarianism, the difference between black and white, the difference between democracy and autarchy.

Not that you would know said difference. After all the main problem Britain has with the Charter of Fundamental Rights is that it asserts way too many rights for the citizens, and gives way too little rights to the government.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2003-9-11 10:42:39 AM|| 2003-9-11 10:42:39 AM|| Front Page Top

#5 LOL Aris, sure it is, sure it is. I mean, of course an Estonian citizen is going to have more democratic influence when part of the EU (current pop. 378.0 million) than in an independent Estonia (pop. 1.4 million). It just goes without saying. And Estonia will be so influential in the EU, I mean, won't everybody? When I see "EU", I see the word "democracy", too. Really! Why are you all laughing?

"...the main problem Britain has with the Charter of Fundamental Rights is that it asserts way too many rights for the citizens, and gives way too little rights to the government."

Aris, you're so right, again. If it wasn't for this document, we'd be a bunch of unenlightened savages enslaved by our government. The EU is our moral savour! Really. Without it, in thirty years we Brits'd be a nation of clones micromanipulating human fetuses in labs all day, shipping our petty criminals off to be gassed in the evil Texan death chambers.

Do you really believe half the stuff you come out with?

"...the difference between black and white..."

It's not, Aris. It seldom is. Time to peep around your EU polarisers.

Posted by Bulldog 2003-9-11 11:09:52 AM|| 2003-9-11 11:09:52 AM|| Front Page Top

#6 the eu may be too big too be an effective democracy, and it may be wise to stay out of it, but Aris is right that it aint the USSR. I mean really.

Posted by liberalhawk 2003-9-11 11:21:42 AM|| 2003-9-11 11:21:42 AM|| Front Page Top

#7 Actually, given that the proportionality of the parliamentary votes goes in favour of the smaller member-states, the Estonians have more "democratic influence" per citizen inside the EU than outside it.

"If it wasn't for this document, we'd be a bunch of unenlightened savages enslaved by our government. "

Given that your constant claims are that *with* this document, the rest of us will become a bunch of unenlightened savages enslaved by Brussels, I thought to return the favour.

But the fact remains that the UK government objects to rights contained in the Charter, ones such as the right to strike.

"And Estonia will be so influential in the EU, I mean, won't everybody? "

Far more influential, Bulldog, than many a British district is to the UK, I wager.

But, ooh, I forgot for you it's "Nation uber alles", national independence and freedom is the same to you. I guess all those Welsh and Scots are even English are enslaved, not being independent and all.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2003-9-11 12:12:58 PM|| 2003-9-11 12:12:58 PM|| Front Page Top

#8 Liberalhawk >>> I didn't mean that the EU is a USSR. What I'm saying is that ths is the EU's Socialist version of Empire building. You're dead on with the too big for democracy. The point is that Europe wants to have enough economic weight to counter the US.
The question then is, someone has to lead and others have to follow. Is all of Europe willing to be led by the French and/or Germans. All of these countries have enough problems governing their own countries let alone others. Do you really believe that French and Germans would make changes that would hurt them if it helped the rest of the EU. I think not. Hell, France is having a hissy fit because they couldn't get a better deal out of the Libyans than we did. Now, come on. You would want "that" for leadership?

Aris >> That you for telling me that there is a difference between black and white. (You're a lifesaver!) I didn't know that. Isn't it sorta like the difference bewteen your head and your ass

...oh, my bad, with you, there isn't one.

Posted by Paul 2003-9-11 12:12:58 PM|| 2003-9-11 12:12:58 PM|| Front Page Top

#9 The may even get a stage in the 2008 Tour de France.

Posted by Lucky 2003-9-11 12:19:32 PM|| 2003-9-11 12:19:32 PM|| Front Page Top

#10 "I didn't mean that the EU is a USSR"

Oh, yes, you did. Want me to quote you?

"You're dead on with the too big for democracy"

What's the exact figure for "too big for democracy"? Give me as an exact figure as you can, please. Some people could have said that the United States are too big for democracy also.

"The point is that Europe wants to have enough economic weight to counter the US"

Ah, I thought the point was a little thing called "freedom", instead. But perhaps that's a triviality for you.

"Do you really believe that French and Germans would make changes that would hurt them if it helped the rest of the EU."

All the more reason to reduce the power of the national veto in favour of democratic structures, right? Oops, sorry, UK objects to that, no can do.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2003-9-11 12:21:52 PM|| 2003-9-11 12:21:52 PM|| Front Page Top

#11 "Actually, given that the proportionality of the parliamentary votes goes in favour of the smaller member-states, the Estonians have more "democratic influence" per citizen inside the EU than outside it."

They're going to enjoy approximately 300 x more 'democratic influence' because of proportionality bias? That's what they'd need... Besides, what you're lauding here is a fundamentally undemocratic activity. i'd have thought a Greek would blush at suggesting one person's vote is worth more than another's. Don't try to associate the EU with democracy, it's embarrassing.

"Given that your constant claims are that *with* this document, the rest of us will become a bunch of unenlightened savages enslaved by Brussels,"

I've never said any such thing, Aris. Your memory fails you. I would deride the Charter for being vacuous crap-by-committee, not even capable of corrupting. It's you who seems to put value on it.

"But the fact remains that the UK government objects to rights contained in the Charter, ones such as the right to strike."

We had a firemen's strike last year. They wanted a 40 % pay rise and various other perks. They already get more than most comparable nations' do, and take on far less responsibility, and are an essential service. I'm sorry, but if you're not happy doing that job, then quit. Do NOT refuse to perform your duty. That was legal. Some professions should not reserve the right to go on strike, and its socialistic nonsense to try to argue that they do.

""Estonia will be"... far more influential, Bulldog, than many a British district is to the UK, I wager."

Whilst Britain's in the EU, probably, yes. But neither alone will have any clout whatsoever. Whereas as constituent parts of, or as, smaller independent entities, they will both have far more control over their destinies and governance. Fact.

Again, you're showing a perverse sense of satisfaction that an English Yorkshireman, for instance, will have less proportional representation than an Estonian. The thin veneer's begining to flake off your picture of utopia, Aris. We're begining to see beneath, and there's actually little respect for "democracy," or good D'Estaing "homogeneity" under there.

"I forgot for you it's "Nation uber alles", national independence and freedom is the same to you. I guess all those Welsh and Scots are even English are enslaved, not being independent and all."

Why the German, Aris? Goddamit, you Greeks and your national stereotypes. We've been through British nationalities before. Devolution - ever heard of it? Scotland will become more influential in the EU Ocean than it is in the UK Sea? Give me a break, you lEUnatic!

Posted by Bulldog 2003-9-11 12:50:42 PM|| 2003-9-11 12:50:42 PM|| Front Page Top

#12 >>"I didn't mean that the EU is a USSR"
>Oh, yes, you did. Want me to quote you?

This promises to be interesting.

>>"The point is that Europe wants to have enough economic weight to counter the US"
>Ah, I thought the point was a little thing called "freedom", instead. But perhaps that's a triviality for you.

What kind of "freedom" do the current member states expect to have that they don't already have now?

Posted by Bomb-a-rama 2003-9-11 1:00:42 PM|| 2003-9-11 1:00:42 PM|| Front Page Top

#13 Aris >> Damn you, I caught your post just before I logged off. (SMILE)

You're right and I've "seen the light." I hope that the EU takes over all of Europe. (except for the UK) Nothing could bring me more pleasure than watching an already overbloated, incompetant, ultra passive, and appeasing bueracracy get bigger. As for the exact figure for "too big". It's not about the people, but the cultures. How many cultural views do you think the EU can hold together? What the French want and what the Poles want are probably two different things. If you're right and the little guys get equal voting that's even better. Then I can watch France throw more hissy fits at the EU when it isn't capable of strong arming the rest.
Doesn't it bother you that when Chirac told the old eastern bloc countries that they've missed a good opportunity to STFU? You realize that invitation extended to your country and every other small non-French appeasing country as well? Yeah, the US and UK don't always have the best ideas and policies, but do you really want to invest heavily in this chaos? The EU has no spine to stand up to any real threats. Do you really think that the Balklan War wouldn't still be on if the EU was running the show. Come on. But, no hard feelings, I wish you the best of luck in the EU's future escapades.

Posted by Paul 2003-9-11 1:03:30 PM|| 2003-9-11 1:03:30 PM|| Front Page Top

#14 Aris >"the Estonians have more "democratic influence" per citizen inside the EU than outside it"

Aris

One of my deep frustration was not having access to North Korean press talking about the invicible NorK people and its enlightened leader.

But you are the European version of a North Korea newspaper.

Posted by JFM 2003-9-11 1:09:34 PM|| 2003-9-11 1:09:34 PM|| Front Page Top

#15 Research shows that living standards will rise when we join the EU.

Living standards will rise regardless of whether Estonia joins the EU, if Estonia has anything like a competent government. East Asian countries developed rapidly without having to put up with the rigid constraints of the EEC.

Posted by Zhang Fei 2003-9-11 1:47:18 PM|| 2003-9-11 1:47:18 PM|| Front Page Top

#16 "That's what they'd need... "

What they'd need for what? Previously they had no power to influence EU happenings, now they do.

You may prefer a world where there's no government structure higher than a mayor, and elections are limited to city level, but not everyone agrees with that logic.

"Besides, what you're lauding here is a fundamentally undemocratic activity."

A bit less undemocratic than the United States elections, though, since the US have *both* biased proportionality and a winner-takes-all policy. EU has only the former.

"Again, you're showing a perverse sense of satisfaction that an English Yorkshireman, for instance, will have less proportional representation than an Estonian."

You are mistaking me. I'm talking about the representation that an English Yorkshireman has in the UK parliament, not the European one. Why don't you demand that Yorkshire becomes independent instead of being shallowed by the British superstate?

I guess that the simplest answer would be that the Yorkshire folk don't ask to be independent of the UK. Neither are Estonians asking for independence from the EU.

"What kind of "freedom" do the current member states expect to have that they don't already have now?"

How about freedom of movement and employment throughout the Union?

But I'm mainly talking about the freedom to join the EU, a freedom certain folk here ain't respecting as equal to the freedom to be independent.

"How many cultural views do you think the EU can hold together?"

The question isn't "how many", the question is "how different". I perceive most European cultures to be close enough to each other as to make this quite workable.

UK is a bit further away from the rest, and so I urge her to leave. :-)

Chirac was an idiot. He also has nothing more to do with the EU than Blair does. You can't hate the EU for Chirac's doings during the War on Iraq without loving it for UK's doings. Makes no sense.

"Yeah, the US and UK don't always have the best ideas and policies, but do you really want to invest heavily in this chaos? "

About as much as the Founding Fathers wanted to invest in the United States. Except that the divisions in the United States were far, far, *far* deeper than any European division currently is. US Civil War anyone?

Paul, would you want to invest heavily in the US of the late 18th century? Since Europe has no issue such as slavery to drive a lasting wedge between the states, I'd say that EU prospect as ten times as good as US chances were.

"The EU has no spine to stand up to any real threats."

Correction: The EU has no army to stand up to any real threat, nor any authority from the treaties to use such an army if it did have it. We plan to change that.

UK disagrees of course, and puts a "red line" that must not be crossed on the idea of EU states (even a voluntary joining of EU states) defending each other in the case of armed aggression being mentioned in the constitution.

One of the reasons I hate the UK.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2003-9-11 2:21:20 PM|| 2003-9-11 2:21:20 PM|| Front Page Top

#17 "Correction: The EU has no army to stand up to any real threat, nor any authority from the treaties to use such an army if it did have it. We plan to change that."

Yes of course, we all saw just how EASY it was to get the French and Germans on board with the use of military force. I'm sure that EU army would spend countless hours and resources preparing for work.....that the EU leadership will never have either the courage or consensu to deploy. Yessiree, that EU's going to be one huge success!

Posted by Flaming Sword 2003-9-11 3:09:55 PM|| 2003-9-11 3:09:55 PM|| Front Page Top

#18 "Chirac was an idiot. He also has nothing more to do with the EU than Blair does."

ROFL...we'll see.

"You can't hate the EU for Chirac's doings during the War on Iraq without loving it for UK's doings. Makes no sense."

I hate the EU because they're all spineless lefty loonies who are capable of talking and not much else.

Ref: Your civil war remark.

How many "wars" (for succession or conquests)have been waged in Europe? Far more than one.

"Since Europe has no issue such as slavery to drive a lasting wedge between the states, I'd say that EU prospect as ten times as good as US chances were.

Aris, I live near a German town that's more than 250 years older than the US itself. If Europe hasn't gotten it right after all of these centuries, what really makes you think this time it'll work? That's a pipe dream, nothing less nothing more.

Correction: The EU has no army to stand up to any real threat, nor any authority from the treaties to use such an army if it did have it. We plan to change that.

Exactly: "The EU has no spine to stand up to any real threats." (They all have armies.) The EU could cobble together their "paper tiger" army and it would still be spineless. The Brits are the only hope for teeth in that tiger.

"UK disagrees of course, and puts a "red line" that must not be crossed on the idea of EU states (even a voluntary joining of EU states) defending each other in the case of armed aggression being mentioned in the constitution.

No shit, that's why you have NATO and that's backed by another country with guts. (US)

"One of the reasons I hate the UK.

I'll try not to lose sleep.

Posted by Paul 2003-9-11 3:15:09 PM|| 2003-9-11 3:15:09 PM|| Front Page Top

#19 >>"What kind of "freedom" do the current member states expect to have that they don't already have now?"
>How about freedom of movement and employment throughout the Union?

>But I'm mainly talking about the freedom to join the EU, a freedom certain folk here ain't respecting as equal to the freedom to be independent.

That doesn't clarify the implication that there would be more "freedom" for member states inside the EU than outside. Movement and seeking employment are minor matters; things like this already happen on a smaller scale, and is probably not going to jump considerably with entry into the EU unless the applicant nation is a destitute country (fat chance of being voted in then, no?) Furthermore, this "freedom" to join the EU is only one of applying to join, which gives no certainty of admission, as Article 57 clearly indicates there to be a procedure for application and the necessity to obtain "consent".

Posted by Bomb-a-rama 2003-9-11 4:16:47 PM|| 2003-9-11 4:16:47 PM|| Front Page Top

#20 We in Estonia are under no illusion about the socialist nature of the EU, but the prospect of remaining in the 'grey zone' isn't very appealing for a country, that has been constantly overrun by it's imperial neighbours for the last 800 years.
We would love to have oceans separating us from Russia and the weasels, but it's not going to happen any time soon.

Posted by Mati Karu 2003-9-11 4:41:32 PM|| 2003-9-11 4:41:32 PM|| Front Page Top

#21 Hi Mati Karu, glad to have you pop by!

I assume then, you'll be voting Yes? Are your sentiments shared by your Baltic neighbours LAtvia and Lithuania? Did you discuss anything like a Baltic league as an alternative to EU membership? Or negotiating with the EU without joining? What do you think about adopting the euro, or the constitution?

What do you think of the Telegraph coverage? Is it accurate?

Sorry for all the questions - we don't get many Estonians round these parts...

Posted by Bulldog 2003-9-11 5:52:55 PM|| 2003-9-11 5:52:55 PM|| Front Page Top

#22 I never would have thought that Estonia's decision would have brought this must attention. Does J Lo live there?

Posted by Super Hose 2003-9-11 6:18:46 PM|| 2003-9-11 6:18:46 PM|| Front Page Top

#23 Wow,Rantburg reaches Estonia,that saying something,Fred!
Welcome aboard,Mati.

Posted by raptor 2003-9-11 6:24:47 PM|| 2003-9-11 6:24:47 PM|| Front Page Top

#24 My wife works for a major hotel chain here in Colorado Springs. One of the new people recently hired by the hotel is a Lithuanian. He and his brother left Lithuania in the late 1990's to come to the US. They both live and work here, and hope to get enough money together to bring their mother and grandmother from Lithuania before the EU takes control. In other words, they "voted with their feet". I wonder how many other Europeans have done likewise in the last five or six years.

Posted by Old Patriot 2003-9-11 6:24:54 PM|| [http://users.codenet.net/mweather/default.htm] 2003-9-11 6:24:54 PM|| Front Page Top

#25 "I hate the EU because they're all spineless lefty loonies who are capable of talking and not much else. "

Does that include your allies, UK, Spain, Italy, etc?

"Furthermore, this "freedom" to join the EU is only one of applying to join"

Well, yes. I mean that people here don't seem to have much respect for that free choice of the various Eastern European people.

"How many "wars" (for succession or conquests)have been waged in Europe? Far more than one. "

And far more than one war have been waged in the Americas. The Civil War I mentioned is the one war that occured *internal* to the US. Not internal to the *continent*, internal to the US.

My point is that there hasn't been any war internal to the EU, since its inception nor is there likely to be in the predictable future, as there's currently no issue dividing the continent as critical as slavery was to the USA since its beginnings.

Again, would you really want to invest heavily in the US of the 18th century?

EU has atleast as good a chance as the US had back then, for the reasons I mentioned.

Old Patriot> Amusing anecdote.

Can we also count the people (e.g. hundreds of thousands of Albanians going to Greece or Italy) who ran *into* EU soil?

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2003-9-11 7:27:25 PM|| 2003-9-11 7:27:25 PM|| Front Page Top

#26 Siccing J Lo on the Balts is far too cruel, SH.

So, basically, according to Aris the British choice is centuries of English common law vs. easier vacations to Spain and not as much hassle if you want to work in, say, the Netherlands. Pardon me while I ponder the benefits of this. If any.

There's a hell of a lot of difference between a developing country in the late 18th century with a divisive social issue, and a conglomeration of modern countries that have been having wars almost continuously for centuries, Aris. For starters, even if a person moved from New York (a free state) to Virginia (a slave state), there would have been a commonality of culture back then that there still isn't if you move from Norway to Greece this week (completely different religions, foods, languages, histories, etc.)

I don't know that I would have invested heavily in my own country back then. So what? I wouldn't have invested heavily in post-WW2 Germany, post-WW2 Japan or Hong Kong or Taiwan after the Communists took over China. It just goes to show that sometimes enterprising people can do a hell of a lot with virtually nothing, while others who are blessed with a lot of resources still slip farther and farther behind (ie. the Arabs and all that oil money).

P.S. Welcome to Rantburg, Mati! I remember the brief day tour I took of Tallinn a long time ago. It was quite a lovely city.

Posted by Baba Yaga 2003-9-11 7:42:10 PM|| 2003-9-11 7:42:10 PM|| Front Page Top

#27 "Mati, allow me to introduce you to Aris, our Evil Greek."

"Aris, give Mati a smile. Ew, not with the teeth. Put them away. And DON'T try to touch him."

Posted by Bulldog 2003-9-11 7:58:10 PM|| 2003-9-11 7:58:10 PM|| Front Page Top

#28 Well, yes. I mean that people here don't seem to have much respect for that free choice of the various Eastern European people.

As much as the Eastern Europeans have free choice with regard to applying for EU membership, the people here are equally free to criticize what they perceive to be unwise surrendering of national sovereignty just to secure membership in a union that may not be in the candidate nation's best interests.

Posted by Bomb-a-rama 2003-9-11 11:58:20 PM|| 2003-9-11 11:58:20 PM|| Front Page Top

#29 "There's a hell of a lot of difference between a developing country in the late 18th century with a divisive social issue, and a conglomeration of modern countries that have been having wars almost continuously for centuries, Aris."

Yes. There is difference. But I have no reason to believe that the latter of the two is any harder a situation than the former.

"For starters, even if a person moved from New York (a free state) to Virginia (a slave state), there would have been a commonality of culture back then that there still isn't if you move from Norway to Greece this week (completely different religions, foods, languages, histories, etc.)"

Absolute nonsense. Tourist food aside what the hell do you think we Greeks eat? We do have our share of vegetarians also, you know. Different religions? Most Greeks visit church once or twice a year, on Easter and Christmas, so they fit right in with the rest of secular Europe.

Culture? Well, I bet I'm seeing the same movies as the average Norwegian, reading the same books as the average Norwegian, and listening to the same music as the average Norwegian.

"So, basically, according to Aris the British choice is centuries of English common law vs. easier vacations to Spain and not as much hassle if you want to work in, say, the Netherlands."

Not sure if the "centuries of English common law" you mention is supposed to be a good thing or not. Brits seem to have a thing about always obsessing with the past, whether it's centuries of this (common law) or centuries of that (constant war).

But no, that's not what I'm saying. Someone asked me how freedom is enlarged for the individuals Estonians by their admission into the union, I gave him two brief examples. If you want a whole treatise on political, economical, judicial, diplomatic and other benefits, that's too complicated for a single post.

"Pardon me while I ponder the benefits of this. If any."

Well, Blair & co must have *some* benefits in mind, or they wouldn't stay in the EU, would they now?

Would they now?

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2003-9-11 11:59:40 PM|| 2003-9-11 11:59:40 PM|| Front Page Top

#30 They're quite free to criticize the free choice of the Estonians, as long as they accept the fact that it's indeed a free choice of the Estonians and not the bizarre mindwashing that we evil overlords of the EU commited upon an unsuspecting nation using our awesome secret mind powers.

Check back the thread above. Check the sayings about how the diplomatic tactics EU uses to create an "empire" are no different in essense to the military troops that the Soviet Union used.

Those are not the sayings of people who recognize the free choice of the Estonians or any other Eastern European nation for what it is. They have absolute contempt for the Eastern Europeans' decision and keep on blaming the EU for somehow coercing Eastern Europe into joining.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2003-9-12 12:05:33 AM|| 2003-9-12 12:05:33 AM|| Front Page Top

#31 blaming the EU for somehow coercing Eastern Europe into joining.

Your naivete betrays you.

Posted by Rafael 2003-9-12 12:34:56 AM|| 2003-9-12 12:34:56 AM|| Front Page Top

#32 Aris, you simply have to be kidding, right?
Ok, let's start with Joe moving from New York to Virginia, 18th century. Joe doesn't have to learn a new language. Sure, the accent is different, but it's the same one from back home, same alphabet. The basic foods are the same, the local government is set up pretty much the same, and the money is the same (yeah, I know, the Euro is in effect right now, but that's pretty recent). The same books are for sale, in the same language. They don't have to be translated into a different one for each state.
Now, Mr Aris moves from Greece to Norway this week. Fortunately, he doesn't have to remember how many drachmas equal how many kroner thanks to the Euro. But there's a different language in a different alphabet. Let's say, just for argument, Mr. Aris is a devout believer in the Orthodox faith. Try and find an Orthodox church in Norway. If there is a local church, it's going to be Lutheran. Ever go to a Lutheran mass? It's a hell of a lot different from what you grew up with (trust me, been to both kinds of services, and they are just about opposite ends of the spectrum of Christianity). Mr Aris decides that he wants to go to the store and get some food because he's hungry. There's a sale on lutefisk, but he passes since it's an, um, acquired taste. (In other words, if you didn't grow up with it, trust me, you ain't gonna like it!) He decides that he wants to get a frozen pizza, because he can't find feta and pita bread (he's homesick and misses his mother's cooking. Hell, I would and that's nothing against the Norwegians, so relax). Chances are, it's not going to be the same brand he grew up with, and just for the hell of it, let's say the cooking directions are only in Norwegian (which probably violates some EU law, but again, this is just for the sake of this discussion). What are the chances that Mr Aris is going to end up with a charred lump of coal instead of a hot, cheesy pizza? Pretty damn good, IMHO.
If there are some commonalities between Aris' new home in the fjords and his old one in Greece, it would be what is termed "popular" culture. That means the same ol' crap that Europeans generally love to hate (McDonald's, the latest Hollywood blockbuster, possibly a new British music group or some Japanese anime). Guess what, Aris? You could get that same crap in Argentina or Singapore, too. That doesn't make Argentina or Singapore part of Europe.
I know that the whole debate is too complicated for a single post. I just don't understand why, if this is such a good deal for Britain, Blair won't put it to a vote. Whether they give up everything to join or not doesn't affect me much. It's just that when I look at what they are giving up, I'm not sure that they are getting anything better.

Posted by Baba Yaga 2003-9-12 12:48:23 AM|| 2003-9-12 12:48:23 AM|| Front Page Top

#33 Boy, I wish I was around here earlier. I don't know if anyone will read this. Any other American enjoying the exchange about rights between our European friends??

Aris, Bulldog, read the Declaration of Independence, then read the pertinent parts of the Constitution.

This is what I took from the exchange. You're all looking at the details instead of the bigger picture.

200 years and you still don't get US. You see, we have inalienable rights endowed by our Creator as individuals. We were designed for the least amount of interference from our bureaucracy, although they're starting to interfere more than they should. We can elect and unelect this bureaucracy every 2-4-6 years, unless they're really bad boys and girls.

What you are going thru is just more monarchy, instead of 1 unelected king you have a $hitload of them and their hangers' on who will live like your monarchs of old. They have given you a document w/1700(!) amendments. An amendment about unions has no place in a document about individual rights. Those are to be negotiated w/said employer. We started out w/10 rights, now have 27 (?) and 2 were for prohibition.

Those "rights" you desire are being given to you by your unelected masters and can be taken away, just like the monarchies of old did. Because they're not going to work, it's not going to work. The document is too unwieldly, constricting.

You see, the great socialist experiment in the US, the PROC (Peoples' Republic of California) is coming to a head. If Bustamante gets in w/his fingers controlling the baking process of every pie, it'll be the final nail in the coffin.

It doesn't work.
But the EU is not about individual rights, is it? It is about the collective right. And that is why it will fail.

But please don't make us go over there again. We're too busy.

So, Aris, where do you want to move to?

Posted by Anonymous 2003-9-12 3:01:05 AM|| 2003-9-12 3:01:05 AM|| Front Page Top

#34 Anonymous(!), I agree entirely. If you read what I said above, the Charter and the Constitution are about as aspirational as toilet paper. As far as I'm concenrned, they're insulting, and I expect they would be to anyone else who doesn't enjoy being patronized by a bunch of bureaucrats. In the UK, we don't even have a written constitution, and this commitee effort knocked together in Brussels has infinitely less substance than what we already have as a nation.

It's convictions such as these: that besuited fat cat bureaucrats can define my individual 'rights,' that I am expected to become a dual citizen of a state I do not recognise or have any faith in, that somehow I am expected to accept that my nation is to be herded willingly ovine into a pen of docility, conformity, collectivity and dependence, those together with the simple conviction that the whole imperial project is inevitably doomed to fail, which make me so utterly opposed to the EU as it is and as it intends to evolve.

I admit, I often allow myself to get bogged down in detail, but when discussing the EU it can be hard to see the stinking wood for the massed ranks of rotten trees.

Aris: the only reason to remain in the EU is for maintaining trade with our main markets. There is no other reason except misplaced ideological fantasy. I'm afraid Blair's been bitten by the latter. As Mati's comment above indicated, even those in East Europe are not passionate about the EU, as you dsperately want to believe. The simply do not feel they have much of an option. You're in the minority.

Posted by Bulldog 2003-9-12 5:37:18 AM|| 2003-9-12 5:37:18 AM|| Front Page Top

#35 Baba Yaga> "Ok, let's start with Joe moving from New York to Virginia, 18th century."

Let's start with Joe being black. One place treats him as an animal, the other as sorta-a-person. :-)

Better yet let's start from citizens of the Swiss cantons moving from place to place. German, French, Italian, oh my.

"because he can't find feta and pita bread"

Baba Yaga, I remember going to Vienna, and two blocks from the hotel was a Greek restaurant. I have no doubt it feta won't be very difficult to discover in Norway either.

Only thing I'm in doubt is their fries. The fries of most foreign countries can't compare with the Greek french fries. :-)

Anyway, I have a brother in Britain and cousins in Belgium. When I went to Portugal it reminded me of Greece. Cultures aren't so different anymore.

Anonymous> "You see, we have inalienable rights endowed by our Creator as individuals."

While we have inalienable rights but we don't need any fairy tale Creator to endow them to us.

"An amendment about unions has no place in a document about individual rights." They are not amendments. As for you, you had to make them "amendments" because you couldn't even pass them in your constitution proper, since not everyone agreed with them. No blame attaches, but don't speak of our declaration of rights as "amendments".

"We started out w/10 rights, now have 27 (?) and 2 were for prohibition. "

You don't even know that the name "Bill of Rights" refers to only the first 10 amendments, not all of your amendments as a whole?

Your religion and prophecies of doom are about as uninteresting to me as Al Qaeda's prophecies of doom about the US. Both seem to be based on faith rather than religion.

Bulldog> "Aris: the only reason to remain in the EU is for maintaining trade with our main markets."

And what's the reason for Scotland to remain in the UK again?

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2003-9-12 9:26:59 PM|| 2003-9-12 9:26:59 PM|| Front Page Top

#36 Aris, why don't you ask a Scot? They seem to like it.

Posted by Bulldog 2003-9-13 6:29:59 PM|| 2003-9-13 6:29:59 PM|| Front Page Top

18:29 Bulldog
21:26 Aris Katsaris
12:26 raptor
12:23 raptor
05:37 Bulldog
03:01 Anonymous
02:08 Anonymous
00:48 Baba Yaga
00:34 Rafael
00:19 Not Mike Moore
00:05 Aris Katsaris
23:59 Aris Katsaris
23:58 Bomb-a-rama
23:27 Someone who did NOT vote for William Proxmire
22:52 Charles
22:43 Charles
22:38 Charles
21:49 Scooter McGruder
21:44 Frank G
21:43 True German Ally
21:33 True German Ally
21:21 Charles
20:54 Alaska Paul
20:52 Anonymous