Article

2003-11-02 Central Asia

Russia settles in for second act of Kremlin power struggle

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Posted by .com (aka The Black Cardinal) 2003-11-02 8:16:29 AM|| || Front Page|| [1 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 There also seems to be a basing poker game in progress in the stans, the Korean situation, and not to forget the channel argument with the Ukraine. Add in Chechnya and you have some real stew warming up in Russia.

Posted by Super Hose 2003-11-2 8:41:18 AM|| 2003-11-2 8:41:18 AM|| Front Page Top

#2 Fred - sure hope you're right about Putin. His reversal and outright opposition regards Iraq, after buddying up to Dubya in Crawford, is when I realized there was a serious opportunist component. Russia needs a strong hand, indeed - it needs a George Washington who'll be consistent in turning down the crown every time it's offered, and forgoing the idolatry. I'll shut up and keep watching - maybe he can pull it off. Thx for the BG!!!

Posted by .com 2003-11-2 10:26:53 AM|| 2003-11-2 10:26:53 AM|| Front Page Top

#3 Russia under Putin has been consistently losing all freedoms and civil rights. I find no reason to be happy or optimistic about where he's taking his country.

Non-state controlled businesses are now being shut down even as non-state controlled media were shut down a little while ago. We are heading for Soviet Union Jr, it seems to me.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2003-11-2 11:24:08 AM|| 2003-11-2 11:24:08 AM|| Front Page Top

#4 Putin seems to get the same bad rap that Bush gets from those who desire light switch solutions to all problems. I can't imagine trying to straighten out the Russian economy after the way they privatized the national industries. I hope that the coalition follows a model simular to the break-up of Ma Bell, where that model fits.

Posted by Super Hose 2003-11-2 11:24:47 AM|| 2003-11-2 11:24:47 AM|| Front Page Top

#5 [heart palpitations] almost agree... [seizure] with... [gasp] Aris... [shudder] [groan]

Posted by .com 2003-11-2 11:37:15 AM|| 2003-11-2 11:37:15 AM|| Front Page Top

#6 However, the guy Vlad put in chains is one bad mofo. While he's been "charitable" with some millions, he and his pals grabbed up a big chunk of Russian oil assets all for themselves in the Yeltsin era. I'm not weeping for them.

Posted by Steve White 2003-11-2 3:21:03 PM|| 2003-11-2 3:21:03 PM|| Front Page Top

#7 Possibly enlightening article from 2000 in the Asia Times:
http://www.atimes.com/c-asia/BF06Ag02.html

Posted by mojo 2003-11-2 3:22:41 PM|| 2003-11-2 3:22:41 PM|| Front Page Top

#8 A Russian friend once told me that what Russia needed was not democracy but a tsar-like figure to lead the people. Putin fits that description pretty well. He hasn't screwed up too badly, and brought in some semblance of order to the country.

Aris: Russia under Putin has been consistently losing all freedoms and civil rights.

Putin will be re-elected again and again and again, unless someone more tsar-like appears on the horizon. If this will be the case, Aris, the self-proclaimed champion of people's right to choose (remember the EU referendums??), then shouldn't you accept that your assertion about the freedoms and civil rights in Russia simply does not hold? In other words, ask the ordinary Russian what he thinks about Putin, freedom, and civil rights, and I bet you'll get a surprising answer. Surprising to you, that is.

Posted by Rafael 2003-11-2 5:50:54 PM|| 2003-11-2 5:50:54 PM|| Front Page Top

#9 A Russian friend once told me that what Russia needed was not democracy but a tsar-like figure to lead the people.

Perhaps. But I've got a friend who says they need a great conductor and someone who can whip up on Deep Blue

Posted by Shipman 2003-11-2 6:02:34 PM|| 2003-11-2 6:02:34 PM|| Front Page Top

#10 Rafael> "A Russian friend once told me that what Russia needed was not democracy but a tsar-like figure to lead the people. Putin fits that description pretty well."

I too know fascists who feel that nations don't need democracies but tyrants. Your point is what exactly?

"He hasn't screwed up too badly, and brought in some semblance of order to the country."

Like the Taliban brought order to Afghanistan? Or Hitler to Germany?

If this will be the case, Aris, the self-proclaimed champion of people's right to choose (remember the EU referendums??),

Yes, I remember the EU referendums. And like every democrat I understand that the rights of the many to decide end at the point where the inalienable rights of the one begin.

Which is quite unlike the nationalists' and fascists' version of democracy -- In that version the many have the right to vote only as long as they defend the absolute nationalistic sovereignty and racial genetic ethnic purity of our god-blessed nation, may our divinely-appointed president rule for ever, hooplah!

Aka, the version of democracy which *you* support and in which version those EU referendums are somehow invalid, given how they produced results you disliked.

then shouldn't you accept that your assertion about the freedoms and civil rights in Russia simply does not hold?

Are you actually telling me that you feel that human and civil rights have to do with what the *majority* feels they should be? That they are not fundamental and inalienable for all human beings? That elected officials have the right to violate them?

What the ordinary Russian feels about Putin becomes less and less relevant given how all non-state media have been shut down, and Putin's most vocal opponents have been exiled, imprisoned or assassinated.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2003-11-2 6:06:08 PM|| 2003-11-2 6:06:08 PM|| Front Page Top

#11 Your point is what exactly?

That Putin will be re-elected. And the fact that you are having a fit about it underscores your lack of understanding of the Russian people.

You have a double standard Aris. No use in arguing anything with you.

Posted by Rafael 2003-11-2 6:47:54 PM|| 2003-11-2 6:47:54 PM|| Front Page Top

#12 A Russian friend once told me that what Russia needed was not democracy but a tsar-like figure to lead the people. Putin fits that description pretty well. He hasn't screwed up too badly, and brought in some semblance of order to the country.
He has, but so did the Taliban (& were they more brutal than Dostum, say?) The Russkiys have had this thing about great men & absolute power ever since the time of St Vladimir, I really don't think it's a good idea to encourage them in this delusion (...the shops were full under Stalin - yeah cos there weren't so 'eaters' then were there? And when the shops were empty who'd have dared to complain?) I blame the Byzantines myself...

Posted by Dave 2003-11-2 6:49:21 PM|| 2003-11-2 6:49:21 PM|| Front Page Top

#13 "That Putin will be re-elected."

I know that.

"And the fact that you are having a fit about it underscores your lack of understanding of the Russian people."

What lack of understanding is that? I think of him a tyrant who is resurrecting what he can of the Soviet Union. You are constantly talking about what the Russian majority wants, which is, if I understand you correctly, to smash the minority under its boot.

Fine, you may go on ahead liking that scenario. But how does that dispute my point? I consider it a nightmare. If the Russian people want a tyrant, then how is that any better than the Afghani people wanting the Islamofascist Taliban?

You seem to be truly enjoying and supporting the idea that certain nations need tyrannies to work. Even if you are right, how the *hell* is that a happy knowledge to have? If Russia is *destined* to forever and ever be an enemy of democracy and freedom, as you are claiming, how in the world does that make the global situation one iota better, than in *my* opinion? In my opinion the Russian people had a chance for democratic reform, like most of Eastern Europe, and they lost it.

In your version they never had a chance at all. If anything you are describing an even more horribly pessimistic worldview than mine is.

As for the double standard, what double standard is that? I very consistently don't like tyrants (elected or not), or violations of human rights, or slides into autocracy. When have I shown a different standard?

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2003-11-2 7:37:41 PM|| 2003-11-2 7:37:41 PM|| Front Page Top

#14 I know Khodorkovsky's son so that biases my outlook but this crackdown is not in America's national interests. Aside from all that money being on the line and Exxon wants to buy his shares, I do not see how America gains from seeing Russia take control of more industry. We need an increase in oil output, that can only come from the private sector.

Posted by Brian 2003-11-3 1:07:12 AM|| 2003-11-3 1:07:12 AM|| Front Page Top

09:06 Raptor
01:07 Brian
00:02 Uncle Joe
23:58 Uncle Joe
23:30 Anonymous-not above
22:28 JP
21:37 Pappy
20:54 Frank G
19:37 Aris Katsaris
19:24 Old Patriot
19:14 Old Patriot
19:06 Old Patriot
18:55 Super Hose
18:49 Dave
18:47 Rafael
18:42 Super Hose
18:32 Dave
18:31 Super Hose
18:19 Dave
18:19 Shipman
18:18 Shipman
18:12 Shipman
18:06 Shipman
18:06 Aris Katsaris