Article

2004-08-05 Europe

Muslim party would do well in larger Dutch cities.

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Posted by Dutchgeek 2004-08-05 9:03:26 AM|| || Front Page|| [3 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 Twenty/thirty years ago the Dutch got suckered into the PC mantra of "multiculturalism is wonderful even though there are no jobs to fill and assimilatation/melting pot is an evil docterine" to the nth degree. So now Dutch jails and welfare lines are filled with disaffected immigrants who have no attachment to Holland and hold nothing but contempt for the people whose generosity they abuse. The Dutch politicians have decided recently to change their liberal,idiotic immigration policies and are evn DEPORTING immigrants who have failed to qualify for asylum and immigrants who have criminal records, etc, much to the horror of the "usual suspects"
in human rights organizations.

Howvwer, the damage has been done already with unbridled immigration[hint, hint],daisy chain family reunification[hint, hint], and low birth rates of native Dutch so now it has become a simple numbers came. For example in Rotterdam, 50% of the population is made up of immigrants. So the Muslim immigrants, which comprise most of the Dutch immigrants of recent years, may be able to control government in the not too distant future. So the Dutch have to hope that the ROP schtick that political talking heads yak to the plebs is true or their butts will not be safe.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/02/18/wneth18.xml&sSheet=/news/2004/02/18/ixnewstop.html
"Dutch to kick out failed asylum seekers"
Feb. 18/04

Posted by rex 2004-08-05 12:11:54 PM|| 2004-08-05 12:11:54 PM|| Front Page Top

#2 So what'll it be? Dutchistan? Netherlandistan?

Posted by tu3031 2004-08-05 2:02:47 PM|| 2004-08-05 2:02:47 PM|| Front Page Top

#3 The old standby Eurabia works for me.

Posted by ed 2004-08-05 2:16:17 PM|| 2004-08-05 2:16:17 PM|| Front Page Top

#4 I see a cultural exchange possibility here. The Nederlanders could help Bangladesh with flood engineering - and the Bangles could teach the Dutch the joys of Shari'a. A Win-Screwed deal.

Posted by .com 2004-08-05 2:23:01 PM|| 2004-08-05 2:23:01 PM|| Front Page Top

#5 Here's the nasty footnote to the story of Holland trying to deport phoney asylum applicants. According to the UN Human Rights Commission, immigrants who have no documentation re: their birth country CANNOT be deported, no matter that their asylum case has no merit. These immigrants become "keepers" to the nation whose borders they manage to penetrate, subsequently gain access to forged Dutch ID paperwork, and are ripe for recruitment by AQ for nefarious ventures against Western countries.
Critics said the new law would prove unenforceable since international rules stopped states deporting refugees who had no documents, or who lied about their origin. The Justice Ministry admitted that many would have to be let loose on Dutch streets if they refused to accept a free flight home and a repatriation cash bonus after spending a two-month stint in a deportation centre...A parliamentary report last month concluded that the country's 30-year experiment in tolerant multiculturalism had been a failure, ending in sink schools, violence, and ethnic ghettoes that shun inter-marriage with the Dutch.It found that 70-80 per cent of third-generation Dutch-born immigrants brought in their spouse from their "home" countries, mostly Turkey and Morocco.The consequences of this were brought home after September 11, 2001 when the intelligence service discovered that al-Qa'eda was "stealthily taking root in Dutch society".

..."They will become illegal immigrants without any right to benefits. There is nothing else we can do," said a spokesman, acknowledging that they could be drawn into the criminal underworld.

From the article in #1 post.

Posted by rex 2004-08-05 3:27:43 PM|| 2004-08-05 3:27:43 PM|| Front Page Top

#6 The obvious solution is to deport them into international territory, past the 12 mile limit.

Posted by ed 2004-08-05 3:33:55 PM|| 2004-08-05 3:33:55 PM|| Front Page Top

#7 One of them win-screwed deals
sounding good
I'm stealing that for my off the cuff commentary.

Posted by D Waltrip Jaw 2004-08-05 3:55:15 PM|| 2004-08-05 3:55:15 PM|| Front Page Top

#8 Simple enough fix,load them on an old frieghter,sail it to the 12 mile limit a Muslem country(I don't,care anyone will do).Then anchor,destroy the engines,off-load plenty of food and water.Then swiftly sail away.

Posted by raptor 2004-08-05 6:02:20 PM|| 2004-08-05 6:02:20 PM|| Front Page Top

#9 and hispanic americans dont vote for hispanic parties -most vote Dem, but increasing numbers vote Republican - much like the experience of earlier immigrant groups(hint, hint)

Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-08-05 6:27:56 PM|| 2004-08-05 6:27:56 PM|| Front Page Top

#10 Nice try, LH, but that dog ain't gonna hunt.

Most Hispanics integrate into American society after a generation or two (sorry, Pat Buchanan). When I lived in California, I read a figure that said Mexicans had a 40% intermarriage rate with Americans. Some people also tend to forget that our south of the border friends have a lot in common with us: Christian morality, same alphabet, lots of similar words, etc.

That is not the case with Muslim immigrants to Europe (Muslims coming to the U.S. tend to be far, far better educated than what washes ashore in the EU). These immigrants don't become part of the culture; one only has to study the experiences of Turkish gastarbiters in Germany to see this. Perhaps it's the huge difference in languages. Perhaps the Muslim immigrant is so disgusted by the lax morality of their European neighbors that they would never want to integrate. Don't know. However, what I do know is that Europe (and Canada to a lesser degree) is about to reap the bitter harvest that only multiculturalism can sow. There's a reason that "Balkanization" is not considered a compliment.

Posted by Dreadnought 2004-08-05 8:33:25 PM|| 2004-08-05 8:33:25 PM|| Front Page Top

#11 With all due respect LH and Dreadnaught, I think what you said about Hispanic voters and their characteristics is based more on wishful thinking than it on fact.

Regarding Hispanics' voting habits, they are traditionally a strong Democrat voting base. There has not been much change for the past 30 years, so new Hispanic immigrant voters do not change their party affiliation much after they have been here several decades.

In the 2000 Presidential election, 62% of Hispanics voted for Gore. The only Latin American speaking immigrants who typically vote Republican are Cubans. And it was the Cuban voters who helped GWB in Florida re: the electoral vote.

As to Hispanics' identifying with hard working conservative family church going values...wrong again...according to census information, Hispanic unwed women were the leading group to have babies out of marriage and as teenagers, suggesting that the Catholic Church's "be a virgin until marriage" was no longer important to this group. Also, Hispanic single parent households are in great preponderance in the USA, suggesting that church sanctioned marriage till death do us part was no longer important. Furthermore, although Hispanics represent 14% of the population they represented 20% of the 3,725 AIDS cases reported for youth ages 13 to 19 between 1981 and 1999, suggesting increased homosexual promiscuity or IV drug use, more likely the former, and also suggesting decrease Catholic Church influence.

So all these warm and fuzzy sentiments about "conservative" Hispanics has no factual basis, according to demographic statistics. Sorry to rain on your parade.

http://www.prcdc.org/summaries/hispanics/hispanics.html

Hispanics have the highest teenage pregnancy rate of any racial or ethnic group. Although the birth rate for Hispanic teens fell 12 percent between 1991 and 2000, they had a fertility rate of 94 births per 1,000 women aged 15-19, almost twice as high as the national average of 50 births per 1,000 teens.

In 2000, 42 percent of live births to Hispanic women were to unwed mothers, compared with 69 percent for Blacks and 22 percent for non-Hispanic whites.

In 2000, Hispanics were less likely to have ever been married than non-Hispanic whites. About three fourths of non-Hispanic whites have ever been married, compared with 67 percent of Hispanics.

About one-third of Hispanic households was headed by a single parent, compared to 18 percent for non-Hispanic whites.

Hispanics were less likely to be employed in 2000 than non-Hispanic whites but more likely to be employed than blacks. Unemployment was higher for Mexicans (7%) and Puerto Ricans (8%) than for Cubans (6%) and Central and South Americans (5%).

Although Hispanics were estimated to account for ten percent of the voting-age population in 2000, they accounted for only seven percent of the vote. Decreased voter participation among Hispanics may be due in part to the greater likelihood that a Hispanic resident of the U.S. is not a citizen. Only 24 percent of foreign-born Hispanics who entered the U.S. between 1980 and 1989 are U.S. citizens; less than half of those who entered between 1970 and 1979 have become citizens. According to the Census Bureau, the number of voting Hispanics increased "sharply" between the 1994 and 1998 congressional elections, from 3.5 million to 4.1 million voters. The percentage of eligible Hispanics who voted slightly decreased, however, from 34 to 33 percent. Hispanics were much less likely to vote than the national average of 45 percent.

Historically, Latinos are more likely to vote for Democratic candidates. Since 1976, Republican presidential candidates have won no more than 37 percent of the Hispanic vote, when Ronald Reagan ran in 1980 and 1984. George W. Bush won 35 percent of the Hispanic vote compared with 62 percent for Al Gore.

Posted by rex 2004-08-05 9:57:28 PM|| 2004-08-05 9:57:28 PM|| Front Page Top

#12 Rex,

Nice straw man arguments.

1. Didn't say Hispanics had superior morality. My point is that they come from countries that are nominally Christian, which reduces the isolation that those immigrants have in the U.S.

2. Didn't say Hispanics voted Republican. The fact that they vote Democrat by two-thirds as opposed to La Raza shows that they participate in the system. American Blacks vote Democratic to the tune of 90%. And while some of us here at RB may view the Democratic Party as a wholly-owned subsidiary of Al Qaeda, it hasn't come to that yet (I hope).

3. So Puerto Ricans are 8% unemployed. That means 92% are employed. In Europe, Muslims are grossly un- and under-employed to what percent I don't know, but anecdotally it appears to be very high.

My main objection to LH was simply that while Muslims in Europe and Hispanics in the U.S. are large immigrant populations, they are not analogous. In fact, all of the problems that you point out with Hispanics may speak volumes to how much more difficulty Europe is going to have with a far more alien and aggressive Muslim culture.

Posted by Dreadnought 2004-08-05 10:34:43 PM|| 2004-08-05 10:34:43 PM|| Front Page Top

#13 Why call facts straw arguments? Facts are facts.

LH tried to float the idea that Hispanics are like the Irish and Poles of the past and they are not. European immigrants learned English as quickly as they and their children could. They did not demand bi-lingual education. European immigrants would rather starve to death before asking for welfare. Hispanics represent a significant percentage of welfare rescipients. Hispanics undervote. European immigrants took their voting rights seriously, especially the ones who fled from Communist countries. European immigrants never had affirmative action for themselves or for their children to get a leg up in society. Hispanics had politicians over a barrel over affirmative action. European immigrants raised their children to assimilate and be Americans. Hispanics hold themselves separate. They are reluctant to take out citizenship even after living here for years, because up until recently they would lose Mexican citizenship. Straw arguments? I wasn't the one to pass off warm and fuzzy urban legends as fact.

Then yiu said in reply to LH's platitudes:
Most Hispanics integrate into American society after a generation or two (sorry, Pat Buchanan). When I lived in California, I read a figure that said Mexicans had a 40% intermarriage rate with Americans. Some people also tend to forget that our south of the border friends have a lot in common with us: Christian morality, same alphabet, lots of similar words, etc. That is not the case with Muslim immigrants to Europe

In response to your claiming that we have alot in common with our "southern friends" including Christian morality, I responded with demographic census statistics to show how wrong you were with that claim. That's not a straw aegument. That's answering you with numbers, with fact, which you appear to want to dismiss off handedly because it does not suit your argument.

Hispanics are not integrated into mainstream America. I don't think we should get on our high horse about how assimilated our Hispanic immigrants are. Have you ever tried to contact a government office in California, in fact most commercial business are offering the same choice on their answering services...ie. English or Spanish? You call that a sign of a "melting pot" society???

As for our educated Muslim immigrants as compared to what you say is the situation in Europe, I'm not sure if that is continuing in the present.
A more complex economic profile emerges however, when one considers that poverty and welfare rates among Middle Eastern immigrants were greater than their native counterparts. In 2000, nearly 20 percent of Middle Eastern immigrants lived in poverty, twice the national average."This suggests that Middle Eastern immigration in the United States is perhaps becoming more like that in Western Europe, with a sizable share being lower income and lower middle class, rather than the elite phenomenon that it had been until relatively recently," Camarota said.

As well, the religious affiliation of MR immigrants to the USA has changed in the past 30 years, which may cause them to be more prickly about the decadence of our American culture, which is as bad as Europe's.
In 1970, the report estimates that approximately 15 percent of Middle Eastern immigrants were Muslim. By 2000 that proportion had increased to 73 percent.
http://usinfo.state.gov/usa/diversity/a081502.htm

Posted by rex 2004-08-05 11:15:46 PM|| 2004-08-05 11:15:46 PM|| Front Page Top

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