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2004-09-14 Iraq-Jordan
Conway, the outgoing commander, questions U.S. strategy on Falluja
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Posted by Super Hose 2004-09-14 03:54|| || Front Page|| [5 views since 2007-05-07]  Top

#1 You had to have a force that came from Falluja in order for it to be accepted by the people," Conway said. "Because they were from the local area, they were emasculated as far as their ability to do something very aggressive."

Am I reading this right? You need to have a local force to have it accepted by the people. But because the force is from the area, they don't have the ability to do anything aggressive.

HuH?
Posted by 2B 2004-09-14 7:44:20 AM||   2004-09-14 7:44:20 AM|| Front Page Top

#2 The creation of the Falluja Brigade also fell on Conway through Sanchez's orders.

Maybe it was a bad idea, I don't know. But Sanchez's biggest mistake was giving it to someone who didn't believe it had a chance of success to begin with, as it appears from this article. Thus the "experiment" was doomed before it even started.
Posted by 2B 2004-09-14 7:48:34 AM||   2004-09-14 7:48:34 AM|| Front Page Top

#3 As I recall, many members of the Iraq Governing Counsel were, during April, putting a lot of pressure on the US to halt its offensive.

They got their wish.

I just wish the US had put devices in the weapons we gave the Fallujah brigade that would allow us to disable them in 60 days.
Posted by mhw 2004-09-14 8:12:01 AM||   2004-09-14 8:12:01 AM|| Front Page Top

#4 Damn, what a freaking screw-up. Too many cooks. Conway doesn't look like the kind of guy to dream up something as stupid as the Fallujah brigade.
Posted by V is for Victory 2004-09-14 8:35:27 AM||   2004-09-14 8:35:27 AM|| Front Page Top

#5 Someone should tell CBS that's the sort of memo you subject: CYA.
Posted by Mrs. Davis 2004-09-14 8:42:30 AM||   2004-09-14 8:42:30 AM|| Front Page Top

#6 [Off-topic or abusive comments deleted]
Posted by P_CE Reporter TROLL 2004-09-14 9:22:58 AM||   2004-09-14 9:22:58 AM|| Front Page Top

#7 I believe P&CE is an auto-spammer...
Posted by Ptah  2004-09-14 9:37:56 AM|| [http://www.crusaderwarcollege.org]  2004-09-14 9:37:56 AM|| Front Page Top

#8 those are pretty defensive words coming out at a COC. It's considered very bad form to use the normally tea and crumpet format bash others for what you feel didn't go well during your command.

Usually those ceremonies are all about praising the command for a job well done and listing the highlights of what was accomplished. Deflecting blame reflects poorly on the speaker. Conway would be aware of that.

Knowing the MSM - it's possible that his words are taken out of context. You'd have to hear the whole speech to know if that was really the thrust of his comments.
Posted by 2B 2004-09-14 9:49:48 AM||   2004-09-14 9:49:48 AM|| Front Page Top

#9 no, P&CE is UFO/Boris Pribitch trolling again
Posted by Frank G  2004-09-14 9:53:51 AM||   2004-09-14 9:53:51 AM|| Front Page Top

#10 I want to digest this at length, but I clearly recall that the Fallujah situation was initiated by Sunni political screams for help - because the sweeping operations were working great. Then we were told that this Fallujah Brigade thingy was a MILITARY idea. Yeah, right. Wotta joke. It was hung on the military to get the press to play along - a PR thingy - and guys like Conway saw the writing on the wall before the first sentence of this fabrication was finished. A bunch of corrupt ex-Army Sunnis are going to clean up and police a city historically known for being under the control of its criminal elements - all Sunnis. Yewbetcha. I felt sorry for the Mil guys then, and sorrier for them now. Fucking politicians.

There is only one way to handle the Sunni Triangle. No need to say it, yet again, is there?
Posted by .com 2004-09-14 10:04:00 AM||   2004-09-14 10:04:00 AM|| Front Page Top

#11 dot com, i dont know. Im inclined toward Fallujah delenda est, but .... We've taken Samarra without a massive assault, and also without a Falujah style compromise. One of the MSM sources, I forget which quotes a Marine Colonel that there is gunfire in Fallujah on nights when the USMC isnt doing anything - apparently the different factions in there are having it out. And the implication is that the bombings we've been seeing are designed to help that process along. Too clever by half? Maybe.

I am impressed by the fact that Conway didnt want the Fallujah brigade, and if i ever defended that act based on the military on the ground supporting it, i hereby admit to being wrong. I continue to think we wont understand this whole thing till years from now, when all the memoirs are written.
Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-09-14 10:13:06 AM||   2004-09-14 10:13:06 AM|| Front Page Top

#12 2B: It may be bad form and maybe the remarks were taken out of context, but I'd bet the general is fit to be tied, because he's going to lose more Marines when they finally decide to finish the job.
Posted by V is for Victory 2004-09-14 10:14:57 AM||   2004-09-14 10:14:57 AM|| Front Page Top

#13 The guy's just covering his butt. After the contractors were killed, Sanchez had no choice but to order Conway to move in. Conway dragged his feet for an eternity before starting the operation. During that interval, the outrage meter from the scenes of mutilation downticked rapidly. And the outrage meter was what provided the political capital for the push. Conway squandered that political capital by delaying the operation for so long. And because of Conway's procrastination in carrying a mission he did not agree with, there wasn't sufficient political capital to finish the job.
Posted by Zhang Fei  2004-09-14 10:18:05 AM|| [http://timurileng.blogspot.com]  2004-09-14 10:18:05 AM|| Front Page Top

#14 I would permanently reroute the Baghdad-Amman highway at least 20 miles from Fallujah and cut off all services. Let them get their house in order or slowly starve. Allah Darwin knows best.
Posted by ed 2004-09-14 10:27:37 AM||   2004-09-14 10:27:37 AM|| Front Page Top

#15 And because of Conway's procrastination in carrying a mission he did not agree with, there wasn't sufficient political capital to finish the job.

It's such poor form to use the COC to deflect blame that I have to think that ZF is right - unless these words are out of context.

What I really suspect is that it is a little bit of all of the above. The Fallujah brigade was a bad idea, thus Conway didn't embrace it, but by not giving it the best shot possible, it made a bad situation even worse. Because there were too many cooks in the kitchen the situation, it just became a mess.

Good news is that there will be a new CO over there. Let's hope he and his superiors have a better working relationship.
Posted by 2B 2004-09-14 10:28:06 AM||   2004-09-14 10:28:06 AM|| Front Page Top

#16 As I recall, many members of the Iraq Governing Counsel were, during April, putting a lot of pressure on the US to halt its offensive.

If there's any truth to this, well, they got their wish. So, how do they like the situation now?
Posted by Bomb-a-rama 2004-09-14 10:35:27 AM||   2004-09-14 10:35:27 AM|| Front Page Top

#17 This is interesting

Conway said the U.S. military could "crush the city in four days," though he contends that that will not be the way things are done.

Iraqi forces will be the next soldiers to set foot in the city with U.S. support, Conway said, adding that he doesn't know what the immediate future holds.
Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-09-14 10:37:33 AM||   2004-09-14 10:37:33 AM|| Front Page Top

#18 Hmmmm. ZF's got a great point that indicates Conway is just not a fighting leader - too ambivalent, and that's unacceptable in a military commander. And this, if true, would complicate the situation a lot. He was a major party to the decision process.

LH, I'm sure there are hundreds of factors that led to the Brigade idea being accepted - new interim gov't confusion, guys (mil & pol) second-guessing everything and watering down every option such that none could succeed.

Fallujah is a smuggler's roost - always was. So it has many mercenary factions and is a perfect place for Al Zarqi and his ilk to operate. Ramadi, as the Provincial seat, is / was also corrupt. Samarra isn't on the smuggler route, as I read about it, since it ran to Al Qaim on the Syrian border... so I don't think it's the same situation, much like Tikrit turned out differently than many (including me) expected.

I don't know about Conway, this story, et al. I don't doubt, however, that only force will work here. It must be sanitized - and I'd use the approach they used in Tal Afar - much like what we thought would be used in Fallujah - cutting off water, solid cordon, etc. Just as in the earlier sweep in Fallujah, the weenies come out of the woodwork screaming for a truce / political accommodation. And this means that what we're doing is working very very well.

I am quite disheartened by the lack of will present - prolly due to the political events here at home. Sometimes time and events just won't allow for convenience. We must clean out these nests - they are the source for much of the death toll, whether it has come in bunches or singles. Kill the planners, wipe out the inventories, destroy the bases - leave the cannon fodder no center of gravity to attract it. Remove the expertise and materiel. Do it, or bleed from hundreds of cuts, tiny or not. Just my $0.02.
Posted by .com 2004-09-14 10:39:00 AM||   2004-09-14 10:39:00 AM|| Front Page Top

#19 Not a Military Guy. Question intended seriously, even if dumb. How does somebody get to be a Lt. General in the USMC without being a fighting leader? I would have thought that if any organization had the filters in place to ensure fighting leaders it was the USMC.
Posted by Mrs. Davis 2004-09-14 10:46:03 AM||   2004-09-14 10:46:03 AM|| Front Page Top

#20 I don't know if that's the case - maybe he was severely handicapped after the attack on the contractors by the higher-ups. No way to be sure.

But about a non-fighter becoming a General, only war reveals a person's ambivalence to fighting. McClellan was a super-duper General - until a fight presented itself. Repeatedly he proved that he was a drilling maniac, but unable to stomach a real fight. Only war makes the fact clear.

And I'm not convinced Conway isn't a fighting man, just following what we have to go on: events. Get rid of the politics and he might turn out to be a Grant.
Posted by .com 2004-09-14 10:50:43 AM||   2004-09-14 10:50:43 AM|| Front Page Top

#21 MD: How does somebody get to be a Lt. General in the USMC without being a fighting leader?

In times of peace, the politicians get ahead. In times of war, the fighting leaders get ahead. And the only time we can sort out the wheat from the chaff is when we're in the middle of a war. As we are now.

The military selects its leadership in the same way that training programs like business schools select their top people, via simulations and grades. Business school graduates get graded in the real world when they graduate. Military leaders only get evaluated for real when a war breaks out.
Posted by Zhang Fei  2004-09-14 11:05:01 AM|| [http://timurileng.blogspot.com]  2004-09-14 11:05:01 AM|| Front Page Top

#22 just to nitpick about little mac - he was out of the army in peacetime - he was a railroad exec, though a west point grad - he made his rep with a win in West Virginia, and only later got his rep for drilling - and more then drilling, he really did build the AoP as an Army.

Note there are revisionist views of little Mc. Lincoln finally fired him for not destroying Lee after Antietam - some question whether that was realistic.
Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-09-14 11:09:59 AM||   2004-09-14 11:09:59 AM|| Front Page Top

#23 LH - 2 words: Shelby Foote.
Posted by .com 2004-09-14 11:24:39 AM||   2004-09-14 11:24:39 AM|| Front Page Top

#24 Bruce Catton - nyah!

BC is outdated of course. Foote is a joy to read - ive only read the last volume of his trilogy(?).
Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-09-14 11:27:20 AM||   2004-09-14 11:27:20 AM|| Front Page Top

#25 Ha LH! Ha! Bobby Lee built the Army of the Potomac.
Posted by Shipman 2004-09-14 11:35:46 AM||   2004-09-14 11:35:46 AM|| Front Page Top

#26 If little Mac had been running the Army of Northern Virginia the Army of the Potomac would never have had the competition necessary to make it a real army. :)
Posted by Shipman 2004-09-14 11:37:53 AM||   2004-09-14 11:37:53 AM|| Front Page Top

#27 He was commissioned in 1970 as an infantry officer and served initially with the 3d Battalion, 1st Marines, Camp Pendleton, as a rifle platoon commander and as the Battalion's 106mm recoilless-rifle platoon commander. Subsequently, he served as a company commander in the Infantry Training Regiment; as Executive Officer of the Marine Detachment aboard the USS Kitty Hawk (CVA-63); at the Marine Corps Recruit Depot in San Diego as a series and company commander in the Recruit Training Regiment, as the aide to the Commanding General, and as Director, Sea School.

After career level school in 1977, he reported to 3d Battalion, 2d Marines, 2d Marine Division where he commanded two companies and served in the Regiment's S-3. Posted to The Basic School he commanded two companies of officer students and taught tactics. Following intermediate level school, his next tour of duty was as operations officer for the 31st MAU, where he spent 13 months at sea in WESTPAC and in contingency operations off Beirut, Lebanon.

Returning to CONUS in July 1984, he was assigned to Headquarters Marine Corps, and later served two years as Senior Aide to the Chairman, Joint Chiefs of Staff. Upon completion of top level school, he was reassigned to the 2d Marine Division serving as Division G-3 Operations Officer before assuming command of 3d Battalion, 2d Marines in January 1990. Under his command Battalion Landing Team 3/2 deployed to Southwest Asia for eight months as the 4th Marine Expeditionary Brigade's surface assault force. Selected for colonel, he was assigned as the Ground Colonels' Monitor, HQMC. He assumed command of The Basic School on April 30, 1993 and in that role was selected for Brigadier General in December 1995. Re-assigned to the Joint Staff, he served as the Deputy Director of Operations J-3 for Combating Terrorism. He then served as the President, Marine Corps University at Quantico, VA. After being selected for promotion to Major General, he served from July 2000 to August 2002 as the Commanding General of the 1st Marine Division, and from August 2002 to November 2002 LtGen Conway served as the Deputy Commanding General Marine Forces Central. In November of 2002 LtGen Conway was promoted to his current rank and assumed command of the I Marine Expeditionary Force.

LtGen Conway hit all the classic "infantry officer" leadership billets. There's little argument that unless he's brain dead, these assignments prepared him to command troops in combat.

Early in the war, under Conway's command the Marines charged all the way to Baghdad, at one point, a Marine Regimental Cmdr (Colonel) was reassigned for not moving fast enough.

In the Falluja campaign, the Marines replaced the Army, which had basically hunkered down in cantonments, taking casualties as crew-served weapons on a regular basis hit their positions.

Gen Conway ordered the Marines to move out of the cantonments and aggressively into Falluja. Through reinforced patrols, assisted by air cover and sniper teams, the Marines were prepared to "clean their (the terrorist's) clocks", but, when the Iraqi coalition was approached by the Falluja elders (complaining the Marines were actually killing da bad guys), the decision was made to stand up the Falluja Brigade. This was a case of giving good training and good equipment to bad people.

Anecdotally, at one point, several Falluja elders approached Conway and requested that he cease the use of Marine snipers. The reason given was that they (the snipers) were killing too many Iraqi people. Without missing a beat, the Gen asked the elders if they’d like him to withdraw the snipers, who are capable of surgically removing the bad guys with a single round, and replace them with the fire of an AC-130 gunship, or a hellfire missile.

War-fighting Generals tend to want to kill people and break things.




Posted by RN  2004-09-14 11:46:07 AM||   2004-09-14 11:46:07 AM|| Front Page Top

#28 Lol! Foote's writing is, indeed, easily the most enlightening (IMHO) and conversational. The fact that he researched everything so deeply and uses notes, journals, orders, diaries, books by the participants, newspaper stories, first-hand accounts by neutral observers (such as photographers) - hell, everything available, and then wove it into such a narrative is, simply, awesome. I have the trilogy and have read it cover to cover 4 times. He is fair, IMO, to McClellan and just calls a spade a spade. The Union had soooo many advantages, including the services of Bobby Lee right up until the first shell fired at Sumter, lol, that it was an amazing war - and proof that between resources and will, will is powerful - but insufficient alone. Which is why I figure that Tsar Putty will eventually wipe out Chechnya. Their will is no match, in the end, for an outraged and wounded Russia run by an autocrat with the power that Putty now possesses. If he gets his way and is given the power to appoint the "governors" of all of the Russian provinces, it's game, set, match - both for the Chechens and for Russia's version of democracy. Sigh. On the latter. Fuck the former. Fry 'em up.

Sorry - windy, again. I do love foote's writing!
Posted by .com 2004-09-14 11:47:35 AM||   2004-09-14 11:47:35 AM|| Front Page Top

#29 for a well written, if outdated treatment of the ACW that defends Mclellan, despises Halleck, and is mixed on Lincoln as war commander, you must read Bruce Cattons trilogy on the Army of the Potomac.
Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-09-14 11:52:29 AM||   2004-09-14 11:52:29 AM|| Front Page Top

#30 RN - Great post - thx! So Conway, from your take, was hamstrung by Sanchez, Bremer, Iraqi interim gov't, et al. He's been the scapegoat for the Fallujah Brigade, that's certian. If he doesn't deserve it he should be vindicated, damnit. I bitched here on RB about Sanchez at least 50 times - but it doesn't make me happy. I'd rather see Fallujah reduced, the rubble bounced a few dozen times, and the Allawi regime can do what it wants about the credit for cleaning out Al Anbar Province. Who cares - as long as we stop them killing us and innocent Iraqis, not to mention the kidnapping BS, with IED's and ambushes. Time to put an end to this shit.
Posted by .com 2004-09-14 11:54:10 AM||   2004-09-14 11:54:10 AM|| Front Page Top

#31 Shelby Foote for sure, all three, enjoy. Far and away the best. Loved the way McClellan menuvered his little ass right off the penninsula.

A great read regarding Braggs defeat by Sherman up till Atlanta is "Decisions in the West", sorry I'm lame on the author. But I do remember in his pre-note, about how he was no fan of Sherman. Then he wrote a great piece about him.

So the Falluja Brigade was a failure. Hell Iraq as Berg is a failure. I hate having to fix it.

I'll admit I havn't read the above article yet. Couldn't wait to get to your comments. But wasn't Conway the guy who manuevered the rats' ass into an acceptable sized kill zone?

Posted by Lucky 2004-09-14 11:54:59 AM||   2004-09-14 11:54:59 AM|| Front Page Top

#32 In the larger scheme of things, it makes no difference - Iraqi guerrillas don't have the combat power to push the US out. But their time will come - Ramadi, Samarra and Tall Afar are in the process of being cleaned out. It's only a matter of time, and we're talking months, not years. Again, the point is to fight this war while not alienating ordinary Iraqis, who will be voting in new leaders in January. We need our handpicked candidates to win.
Posted by Zhang Fei  2004-09-14 11:57:21 AM|| [http://timurileng.blogspot.com]  2004-09-14 11:57:21 AM|| Front Page Top

#33 Iraqthemodel has some 2nd hand news from Fallujah today.

"...is totally different where control is in the hands of the radical Islamic groups together with Arab fighters from across the borders. The latest information I received indicate that seven major “armies” have united their efforts; the “armies” are: Mohammed’s army, Al-Farouq’s battalions, the Salafies, Ansar Al-Sunna and three other groups I couldn’t get their names.

There was a dispute about who should lead the “army” and whether this commander should be a cleric or a military expert. Abdullah Al-Janabi, one of the significant Sunni clerics there was a candidate for that position but the dispute was settled and an agreement was reached to assign a military professional..."
Posted by mhw 2004-09-14 12:06:45 PM||   2004-09-14 12:06:45 PM|| Front Page Top

#34 ZF, Is that why the Iraqi election is not being held until the Florida recounts are finished?
Posted by Mrs. Davis 2004-09-14 12:09:46 PM||   2004-09-14 12:09:46 PM|| Front Page Top

#35 The Mil guys are prolly the bomb makers too. Boy, if there are seven major formations massed in Falluja then F Troop was a great idea. The enemy is showing its face. It's a diverse group and their destruction could lead to alot of info regarding their funding.
Posted by Lucky 2004-09-14 12:19:21 PM||   2004-09-14 12:19:21 PM|| Front Page Top

#36 Anecdotally, at one point, several Falluja elders approached Conway and requested that he cease the use of Marine snipers. The reason given was that they (the snipers) were killing too many Iraqi people. Without missing a beat, the Gen asked the elders if they’d like him to withdraw the snipers, who are capable of surgically removing the bad guys with a single round, and replace them with the fire of an AC-130 gunship, or a hellfire missile.

Good anecdote, RN. So apparently Conway has balls, even if he lacks tact. One thing of note is that he's not retiring and making snarky comments on his way out - he's doing it before heading to his next assignment.

And despite being in an openly adversarial relationship with his superiors - he HAS a next assignment. Not sure what that says - but it says something.

Sooo...I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and let history sort it out.
Posted by 2B 2004-09-14 12:25:05 PM||   2004-09-14 12:25:05 PM|| Front Page Top

#37 Not sure what that says

thats hes USMC, Sanchez is army, and that USMC has a suitable billet that the army cant keep him out of?
Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-09-14 12:34:51 PM||   2004-09-14 12:34:51 PM|| Front Page Top

#38 ok..won't argue with that.
Posted by 2B 2004-09-14 12:44:26 PM||   2004-09-14 12:44:26 PM|| Front Page Top

#39 The Army tried hard, following WWII, Korea and Viet Nam to disband the Corps, or fold it into the Army. Once the USMC received co-equal status on the Joint Chiefs (70's), with the other services, the ball began rolling toward full status across the unified command spectrum.

At all levels, the USMC now swaps out with the Army for 4-star command at US European/Central and Southern Command and Gen Pace is currently Vice Chairman of the JCS.

The Marines have landed and the situation is well in hand!
Posted by RN  2004-09-14 12:56:13 PM||   2004-09-14 12:56:13 PM|| Front Page Top

#40 Sorry, I'm watching this one CNNi. They are cutting and snipping his tape. I can't wait to see the full transcript come out. He's getting Wallaced (V Corp commander in OIF): "the enemy we are fighting is not --snip--- the enemy we wargamed against.
Let's start calling this the Rather Effect.
My two cents (or Euro) is that when the transcript is published, LTG Conway is going to come down as saying "you send in the Marines, expect the enemy to die in great numbers. Won't look good on CNNi, but the fewer Jihadi Joes, the better."

Joke for the day:
"Good evening, I'm Dan Rather, reporting."
"Prove it."
Posted by Anonymous6396 2004-09-14 2:21:11 PM||   2004-09-14 2:21:11 PM|| Front Page Top

#41 .com wrote: "I am quite disheartened by the lack of will present - prolly due to the political events here at home. Sometimes time and events just won't allow for convenience. We must clean out these nests - they are the source for much of the death toll, whether it has come in bunches or singles. Kill the planners, wipe out the inventories, destroy the bases - leave the cannon fodder no center of gravity to attract it. Remove the expertise and materiel. Do it, or bleed from hundreds of cuts, tiny or not."

If Bush's numbers continue to improve, I think the Fallujah assault may come before the election. At the very least, there will be a hard cordon around the city soon to cut down on incidents like today's car boom in the run up to November. I am not so sure that Fallujah has been handled too badly. Back in April, the IGC was screaming about "collective punishment" and the US made a political decision that credibility for the IGC was more important than levelling Fallujah. That might not have been the best decision, but it was a rational one. Now, we have political support from the interim government for precision strikes and a cordon. I would bet that almost all of our targeting information is coming from pissed off Iraqis who don't want to live under a theocracy or a thugocracy. As for Conway's comments, I would bet that some were taken out of context, some were delivered as a warning to the incoming commanders (which should have been done in private IMO) and some were the result of frustration that the high hopes of taking a constructive approach to Fallujah was a failure (no thanks to the Islamofascists).
Posted by Tibor 2004-09-14 2:48:22 PM||   2004-09-14 2:48:22 PM|| Front Page Top

#42 Tibor - I sure hope you're right. :/
Posted by .com 2004-09-14 2:54:14 PM||   2004-09-14 2:54:14 PM|| Front Page Top

#43 How can you be so sure that today's car bomb was assembled or even designed in Fallujah?

There may be numerous jihadi cells in Baghdad.

Posted by mhw 2004-09-14 2:54:29 PM||   2004-09-14 2:54:29 PM|| Front Page Top

#44 I can't be sure, but while we maintained a strict cordon around Fallujah earlier this year, the number of car bombs throughout the country declined precipitously. I don't have a cite for that assertion, but I remember reading it in more than one article. A little help? Anyone? Bueller?
Posted by Tibor 2004-09-14 3:13:36 PM||   2004-09-14 3:13:36 PM|| Front Page Top

#45 yes in April when we had heavy combat and a cordon there weren't any suicide car bombs

but that was then, this is now -- the terrorists have devolved some of their ops
Posted by mhw 2004-09-14 4:08:00 PM||   2004-09-14 4:08:00 PM|| Front Page Top

#46 i think its stil clear that both the Allawi govt and Amb. Negroponte want Fallujah cleaned out by Iraqi troops. Thats the pattern in Najaf, and in Samarra, where final action wasnt threatened till an Iraqi unit was available. Fallujah is a tougher nut than Samarra (as dot com has explained elsewhere) and arguably tougher than Najaf as well. I think theyll wait till there is a considerable body of Iraqi troops before going on. Probably December or January.
Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-09-14 4:16:55 PM||   2004-09-14 4:16:55 PM|| Front Page Top

#47 At all levels, the USMC now swaps out with the Army for 4-star command at US European/Central and Southern Command and Gen Pace is currently Vice Chairman of the JCS.

My plan is comming together!
3 Armies, 3 corps, 3 Divisions, 3 regiments, 3 battalion, 3 companies, 3 platoons, 3 squads, 3 fire teams.

And that's just the ground.
Semper Fi and get the Money!

Posted by Howlin Mad Smithy 2004-09-14 6:23:46 PM||   2004-09-14 6:23:46 PM|| Front Page Top

#48 Good post RN. I served w/one of Conway's sons at my first unit. If the General says something's bullshit then you can take it to the bank. Once you commit forces to taking a city, you take the fucking city. Politicians are only supposed to negotiate *after* a battle, not during. Someone mentioned Grant and I think his initials as unconditional surrender are appropriate today as they ever were. I think Conway got screwed by the IGC and is pissed (rightfully so), however you feel about the protocol of his making this known at a COC is up to you. As far as I'm concerned he cares more about the average Marine then the fucking suits blowing the calls - good for him. We should've whacked fallujah like a elephant w/a bad case of hemhroids. Let the pseudo-arab street bitch, because they'll bitch anyways.
Posted by Jarhead 2004-09-14 6:45:45 PM||   2004-09-14 6:45:45 PM|| Front Page Top

#49 Jarhead,

I think the lesson of Viet Nam is that the brass should not put up with that kind of BS. If Conway felt that way at the time, he should have resigned. If he didn't want to resign, he should follow orders and not whine in public later. Bad show.
Posted by Mrs. Davis 2004-09-14 6:56:38 PM||   2004-09-14 6:56:38 PM|| Front Page Top

#50 Dang, this has been bugging me all day. Bragg bugged out after Missionary Ridge, much to NBForrests complaints, of course. Johnston was Shermans' patsy.

So easy to be a fool!

Forever your servant, ect, ect.
Posted by Lucky 2004-09-14 9:00:11 PM||   2004-09-14 9:00:11 PM|| Front Page Top

#51 Mrs. D, Conway's not a whiner or was he whining - prolly just telling it like it is. Plus, maybe he didn't feel it was worth resigning over - and I do believe he followed orders as fallujah is still standing. However, he was there and we were not, I'll accept what he has to say before a lot of other folks.
Posted by Jarhead 2004-09-14 9:39:00 PM||   2004-09-14 9:39:00 PM|| Front Page Top

#52 I don't doubt him, just the wisdom of expressing his opinion publicly.
Posted by Mrs. Davis 2004-09-14 9:45:44 PM||   2004-09-14 9:45:44 PM|| Front Page Top

#53 It would be convenient to cast Sanchez as the weak reed, but I'm not sure that he is at fault either. I think in the end Fallujah needs to happen the way it is playing out today. Although it bothers my miltary self to see the Falljah nut be cracked by the Pershmerga with the US in support, that's what is healthiest. You can't democratize people, they have to sacrifice their own blood for their own freedom.
Posted by Super Hose 2004-09-14 10:54:40 PM||   2004-09-14 10:54:40 PM|| Front Page Top

#54 "Once you commit forces to taking a city, you take the fucking city"

Well said, Sir.
Posted by V is for Victory 2004-09-14 11:21:24 PM||   2004-09-14 11:21:24 PM|| Front Page Top

#55 Fallujah is a big pile of broken glass that is bleeding both the Marines and Allawi. If we all are to survive, Fallujah needs to be cleaned out. Allowing the jihadis and assorted terrorists to stand, even if they are surrounded is a propaganda victory for the bad guys. It is a nasty business, especially with civilians, but nobody in their right mind would keep their family in such a rat's nest when a war is going on. Fallujah needs to go down now as an object lesson to the rest of Iraq and potential terrorists.
Posted by Alaska Paul in McGrath, AK 2004-09-14 11:38:35 PM||   2004-09-14 11:38:35 PM|| Front Page Top

#56 Off-topic or abusive comments deleted]
Posted by P_CE Reporter 2004-09-14 9:22:58 AM||   2004-09-14 9:22:58 AM|| Front Page Top

21:52 007
21:52 007
09:22 P_CE Reporter
00:52 P_CE Reporter
13:35 Anonymous6449
12:48 Anonymous6449
12:21 Anonymous6449
03:02 Anonymous6444
01:09 Anonymous6444
00:32 P&CE Reporter
00:32 P&CE Reporter
00:26 P&CE Reporter
00:26 P&CE Reporter
01:36 Mister Write
01:30 Mister Write
01:19 Mister Write
01:05 Mister Write
00:51 Super Hose
00:28 Mister Write
00:03 GK
23:57 Lucky
23:57 GK
23:56 Mister Write
23:52 Zenster









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