Article

2005-01-24 Great White North

Bush sparred with Canadians on missile defence: report

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Posted by Seafarious 2005-01-24 00:00:00 AM|| || Front Page|| [7 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 Seafarious, thy comments made me laugh out loud!

Posted by N by NW 2005-01-24 1:16:13 AM|| 2005-01-24 1:16:13 AM|| Front Page Top

#2 41 billion loonies over 10 years to improve their national health care. No armed forces to speak of, and I don't mean to degrade the people who've chosen that line of work.

Used subs for what????

2+++ billion loonies on a gun registration that didn't work.

The Canuckistan senate finally got its head out of its rear and discussed upgrading their side of the border.

Wonder what kind of balls Alberta has since they're assuming more burdens since they have the oil.

Posted by anonymous2u 2005-01-24 1:45:14 AM|| 2005-01-24 1:45:14 AM|| Front Page Top

#3 "President George W. Bush tried to bully Canadian officials on missile defence during his visit last month by linking Canada's participation to future protection from the U.S."

Somebody needs to look up "reciprocity" in a dictionary.

Posted by gromgorru 2005-01-24 2:54:06 AM|| 2005-01-24 2:54:06 AM|| Front Page Top

#4 All you have said is quite correct #2. The gun registry is a bust. It cost $2 Billion even though Canada had no need for it because its homicide rate from gun deaths is very low. It plans to pay out $41 Billion over 10 years for health care, but on the otherhand everyone has free health care in Canada and its per capita life expectancy rate is better than the USA's, a country which spends significantly more on health care per capita than Canada. Canada spends very little on military technology but it has one of the most respected group of soldiers in the world. A US soldier would gladly have a Canadian soldier by his side - ask Jarhead or other US military posters. Canadian soldiers are smart, well disciplined, and brave. Their snipers are the best in the world.

Canada's pension plan[like social security] is fully funded. Canada's deficit is being paid down steadily year after year. This past year the Government of Canada announced that it had recorded a surplus of $9 Billion, the seventh consecutive year that it had recorded a budget surplus. As of 2003 Canada has started to reduce personal and corporate taxes. Canada's dollar has steadily increased against the value of the US dollar, as the latter tumbles to new lows. As for Alberta, for Alberta to show some "balls" as you say, it would mean the dissolution of Canada. Therefore Alberta will not show some "balls" and it has nothing to do with masculinity or lack thereof. It has alot to do with Canadian patriotism. Canada has complied with border security requests from the USA, unlike a certain corrupt bunch of bums south of the border which RB'ers are loathe to criticize, because Mexico after all is such a super duper example of an ally.

So before you lambast Canada for being less than our perfect selves in the USA, try to be a bit more realistic about our situation and how we take Canada for granted as our friend. Our deficit is growing like Topsy 24/7. Our Social Security is bust. Our medical system is on a collision course. Our Yankee dollar is losing value consistently but this has not helped our trade imbalances. We have 20 Million illegal aliens living in our midst and that's only counting Mexicans, God only knows how many illegal Chinese and illegal Arabs have come across our porous southern border the past few years. We are in 2 wars and the one in Iraq is costing us $1 Billion a day.

So Canada's "foolish" expenses on a gun registry and on health care adds up to what we spend on the Iraq War in 43 days. Our other perfect ally, Israel, second only to Mexico for its perfection, is thinking of plunging us into a 3rd war with Iran on top of the 2 we are in.

So parden me if I say I think you should show a bit more humility about how Canada is running its country and be a little more circumspect about mocking Canada as being a persnickity ally for not saying I'm your man re: missile defense. Canada is a far better ally than some we go to the wall for and Canada is not running its country any worse than our politicians are running the USA. Moral of the story: Don't throw stones if you live in a glass house.

Posted by 2xstandard 2005-01-24 3:04:34 AM|| 2005-01-24 3:04:34 AM|| Front Page Top

#5 Canada's pension plan[like social security] is fully funded.

It is?

Our Social Security is bust.

It is?

Posted by badanov 2005-01-24 4:14:38 AM|| [http://www.rkka.org] 2005-01-24 4:14:38 AM|| Front Page Top

#6 A couple of minor quibbles with your post, 2xstandard.

everyone has free health care in Canada True, but wait times for appointments are so long that those who can afford it go south of the border to American doctors, and entirely too many others die before their Canadian doctor has a chance to try to cure them.

Canada spends very little on military technology but it has one of the most respected group of soldiers in the world Again true, but they must use chartered airplanes to move the troops to the battlefield, or hitch a ride with their American admirers, and entirely too often borrow bullets, or so I've heard. And recent moves to increase spending so that the troops have proper gear and training show that the current government realizes military spending has been entirely too low, even at recently reduced troop levels.

Our deficit is growing like Topsy 24/7 No. As a result of Bush's tax cut, our deficit topped out in 2004, and is set to shrink in 2005 as tax revenues continue to significantly outpace expectations. This has been posted on recently here at Rantburg (by me among others, as it happens).

Our Social Security is bust No, our Social Security is threatened if it continues unchanged for the next generation. That is why Bush wants to change it, proposing introducing means testing, delayed retirement, tying COLAs to actual funds received rather than inflation, and allowing those not immediately approaching retirement to invest some of their SS funds in the stock market. And that's why Mr. Wife and I max out our IRAs and 401k investments every year, and set aside funds should our parents need supporting later. What are you doing to stay off the dole in your old age?

Our medical system is on a collision course Really? With what? Do you have references for this statement? Is that must be why all those rich foreigners come here for treatment?

Our other perfect ally, Israel, second only to Mexico for its perfection, is thinking of plunging us into a 3rd war with Iran on top of the 2 we are in. You have evidence for this, do you?

Honestly, 2xstandard, you really are bent on demonstrating exactly how little you actually know. Not at all wise in a forum such as Rantburg, where you can be caught out even by little housewives like me, while the truly clever members save their fire for those worthy of their attention.

You are not pardoned. You'll have to do much better for pardon to be considered.

Posted by trailing wife 2005-01-24 4:16:32 AM|| 2005-01-24 4:16:32 AM|| Front Page Top

#7 So spracht 2xstandard "Our other perfect ally, Israel".

I just knew a reference to the evil Zionist entity is going to be there, somewhere.
A moonbat detection test that never fails.

Posted by gromgorru 2005-01-24 4:26:20 AM|| 2005-01-24 4:26:20 AM|| Front Page Top

#8 Ditto TW...

As for Alberta, for Alberta to show some "balls" as you say, it would mean the dissolution of Canada.

And that would be bad because....??

Being by one foot in US already, this issue is not as hot for me as it were time ago, but I think the Western Canada should separate, the sucking sound of Eastern leech is very loud. WC would be a much more viable entity.

What about the Easterners? What about them, they can leech each other!

Posted by Sobiesky 2005-01-24 4:28:38 AM|| 2005-01-24 4:28:38 AM|| Front Page Top

#9 Canada spends very little on military technology but it has one of the most respected group of soldiers in the world. A US soldier would gladly have a Canadian soldier by his side - ask Jarhead or other US military posters. Canadian soldiers are smart, well disciplined, and brave. Their snipers are the best in the world.

Our military are smart, well disciplined and brave too.

Can Canada defend itself as a nation with its military expenditures as low as they are? It doesn't really matter how respected soldiers are in the world if they are outgunned.

So before you lambast Canada for being less than our perfect selves in the USA, try to be a bit more realistic about our situation and how we take Canada for granted as our friend

Our situation is that we are at war with Muslims and Canada is turning itself into a haven for the class of people most likely to attack the USA. Real enough for you?

As for taking Canada for granted, didn't we just go through four years of hostile talk from Canadian leaders, one way talk; talk our own leaders would not engage in? That kind of friendship?

So Canada's "foolish" expenses on a gun registry and on health care adds up to what we spend on the Iraq War in 43 days

Canada would rather spend a billion dollars for a boondoggle rather than to spend money for national defense, even in the midst of evidence that Canada too is on Al Qaeda's target list. If Canada doesn't get hit, then you can parade around telling us how good Canada is and how foolish we are to take on terrorists our own selves.

Our other perfect ally, Israel, second only to Mexico for its perfection, is thinking of plunging us into a 3rd war with Iran on top of the 2 we are in.

Iran has been at war with the west since 1979. Israel, when it does strike will be in defense of itself from hostile Muslims, not because it is 'plunging us into a 3rd war' as you say.

So parden me if I say I think you should show a bit more humility about how Canada is running its country and be a little more circumspect about mocking Canada as being a persnickity ally for not saying I'm your man re: missile defense.

If Canada doesn't want to be protected from Nork missiles, I am down for that: Less money for us to spend

Canada is a far better ally than some we go to the wall for and Canada is not running its country any worse than our politicians are running the USA.

They are worse. It's just the bill hasn;'t arrived yet and when it does it will be a doozie.

Moral of the story: Don't throw stones if you live in a glass house.

I prefer the USA.

Posted by badanov 2005-01-24 4:30:31 AM|| [http://www.rkka.org] 2005-01-24 4:30:31 AM|| Front Page Top

#10 Gromgorru, 2xstandard's either a moonbat or perhaps rather misinformed. There are still people in the second category, albeit getting more rare.

I had a discussion with my 1st X about Israel, a couple of years ago. She partook on the MSM el cubo version quite happily for years. I showed her the maps, going back more than a century, with some narrative. It dented her a bit. Then she watched on TV that splodeydope boy caught on the crossing. "Disgusting", she said.
Scales fell off completely.

Posted by Sobiesky 2005-01-24 4:47:03 AM|| 2005-01-24 4:47:03 AM|| Front Page Top

#11 2X I call bullshit. I have friends in B.C. and Alberta. They are very liberal fellows. They have a major rant going on Health Care. First it's not free they pay out the ass for mandatory health insurance premiums that are very, very high. The average wait for a simple hip replacement is 18 months. As I understand it this wait is even if it is not elective surgery. It's called rationed health care. Sorry this wonderful national health system has lots of people pissed off and it is considered a joke by many Canadian citizens.

Posted by Sock Puppet of Doom 2005-01-24 5:16:20 AM|| [http://www.slhess.com] 2005-01-24 5:16:20 AM|| Front Page Top

#12 2x would like us to believe that Canadian policy is based on principle and leads to utopia.

That's not what I hear from Canadians I know. They believe that their government has kept Quebec in the federation through massive bribes and that they can't actually get medical and dental care for their kids in ways that matter.

But the more insidious issue comes with the linkage between various current and previous Canadian leaders and a whole mess of international corruption.

It's true that Canada has been a good ally of the US in the past. It's also true that the US has been a good ally of Canada in the past -- NORAD was mostly paid for by us, but protected them, particularly against circumpolar nuclear strikes during the Cold War.

Bush may have pushed missile defense with Martin. But the bigger issue is that Canada seems happy to sink into the Euro morass. Okay for them, if that's what they want -- but when it spills over onto us, when there are 22,000 stolen blank passports in a year in Canada, when their immigration personnel protect people with direct ties to terrorism financing, then the issue goes way beyond the price of lumber. In this instance "missile defense" is a proxy for "get serious".

Posted by true nuff 2005-01-24 5:31:30 AM|| 2005-01-24 5:31:30 AM|| Front Page Top

#13 SPoD, right you are. It is free for welfare recipients, but otherwise the premiums are quite steep. Although it is mandatory in general, you may stop paying under certain circumstances (I did), but then you have to shell a mighty bundle for medical services, or for reinstating the insurance. It is far cheaper for me to purchase medical services in US, in fact about 6-10 times cheaper. The equivalent insurance in US would be between 50%-63%.

Another aspect of the stellar canuckistan heatlh care is the lack nurses. The reason is that they are underpaid, and there has been a steady stream of them leaving for greener pastures south of the border. Thre is probably enough foreign-educated nurses that could step in, but the inane canuck policy regarding acknowledging foreign educational degrees is mindboggling--it is simply not considered/counted at all (only in rare instance of academic exchanges), one must have a canuck degree, whole nine yards, basta!

Posted by Sobiesky 2005-01-24 5:52:57 AM|| 2005-01-24 5:52:57 AM|| Front Page Top

#14 Sorry about that, 2xstandard (which you donot appear to be, by the way). It looks like some of the more clever Rantburgers decided to answer you as well.

Posted by trailing wife 2005-01-24 6:48:13 AM|| 2005-01-24 6:48:13 AM|| Front Page Top

#15 Nice work TW. :)

Posted by Shipman 2005-01-24 7:56:39 AM|| 2005-01-24 7:56:39 AM|| Front Page Top

#16 and in addition to all things already pointed out - imagine how much better things would be in the US if we didn't have to pay for Canada's defense in addition to our own.

Posted by 2b 2005-01-24 8:11:13 AM|| 2005-01-24 8:11:13 AM|| Front Page Top

#17 And nobody has mentioned Rantburg's ranting on illegal immigration from Mex,you haven't been here long enough to know this 2x.Another thing on the health care issue,prescription drugs.How about Canada's threat not to allow American's to buy low cost Canadian meds.Why are they low cost?Because if U.S. drug company's do not sell to Canadian companies at below rock bottom prices then Canada will steall the formulas.Forcing American's to pay 4-5 times what they should(something I learned at Rantburg U).Given all that has been said,no I don't think I will pardon you.

Posted by Raptor 2005-01-24 8:15:18 AM|| 2005-01-24 8:15:18 AM|| Front Page Top

#18 What I have learned, and it's not even 8:30! And compliments from Shipman and Sobiesky, too -- my day is complete before its even started ;-)

Posted by trailing wife 2005-01-24 8:23:58 AM|| 2005-01-24 8:23:58 AM|| Front Page Top

#19 Wow, 2x got hammered and appears to have left, all before I woke up. Looks like Rantburg does more stomping before 8 am than most sites do all day. :)

Posted by Laurence of the Rats 2005-01-24 8:52:38 AM|| [http://www.punictreachery.com/] 2005-01-24 8:52:38 AM|| Front Page Top

#20 Or, I do not doubt his sincerity, Sobiesky.
Other things that we usually associate with genus Homo, yes. Sincerity, no.

Posted by gromgoru 2005-01-24 9:44:50 AM|| 2005-01-24 9:44:50 AM|| Front Page Top

#21 Victimhood is woven into the fabric of the LLL.

Posted by Captain America 2005-01-24 9:45:05 AM|| 2005-01-24 9:45:05 AM|| Front Page Top

#22 da boss is a good boss, but sometimes da boss, he goes off a little half cocked, and says things that aint diplomatic, and dont help. Which is ok, in the big picture we're better off having prez who sees the big picture, and isnt a glorified deputy asst secretary of State (er did anybody say John Kerry). Which is not to say we wouldnt have been better off he HAD been more diplomatic in this particular instance. Reconciliation with Canada on Iraq, the Mideast etc is worth more than one snarky (even if true, which is one debate im NOT getting into) remark on missile defense.

Posted by Liberalhawk 2005-01-24 9:49:56 AM|| 2005-01-24 9:49:56 AM|| Front Page Top

#23 everyone has free health care in Canada

Wow. Free? Really? How do you suppose they did that? I mean, health care in this country costs a lot of money. So, they really don't have to pay anything? That's simply amazing.

Posted by BH 2005-01-24 10:06:35 AM|| 2005-01-24 10:06:35 AM|| Front Page Top

#24 LH: Reconciliation with Canada on Iraq, the Mideast etc is worth more than one snarky (even if true, which is one debate im NOT getting into) remark on missile defense.

Iraq is a nit. Missile defense is way more important than Iraq, which we have under control.

Posted by Zhang Fei 2005-01-24 10:07:13 AM|| [http://timurileng.blogspot.com] 2005-01-24 10:07:13 AM|| Front Page Top

#25 even if so, ZF, did the snarky remark make getting Missile defense more likely? And is getting missile defense in CANADA essential to missile defense overall? If so, we might want to offer them something substantive, like agreement on softwood lumber, rather than idle threats.

Posted by Liberalhawk 2005-01-24 10:09:29 AM|| 2005-01-24 10:09:29 AM|| Front Page Top

#26 WAPO from unidentified Candian official, LH. Let's not jump to conclusions.

Posted by 2b 2005-01-24 10:23:16 AM|| 2005-01-24 10:23:16 AM|| Front Page Top

#27 LH, the brouhaha over Bully Bush is meaningless. If missile defense is in Canada's national interest, then Canada will support it. And of course they will extract some kind of concession on a side issue. This virtually certain outcome will not be affected in the slightest by Bush's remarks, which were obviously the bluff of a master poker player. Tempest, teapot.

Posted by lex 2005-01-24 10:39:48 AM|| 2005-01-24 10:39:48 AM|| Front Page Top

#28 The gun registry is a bust. It cost $2 Billion even though Canada had no need for it because its homicide rate from gun deaths is very low.

A gun registry has nothing to do with reducing gun deaths; the intent is to allow the government to disarm the populace when it feels necessary.

Posted by Robert Crawford 2005-01-24 10:42:36 AM|| [http://www.kloognome.com/] 2005-01-24 10:42:36 AM|| Front Page Top

#29 This is a non-story, yet more noise from the anti-Bush brigade that has nothing whatsoever to do with underlying realities or outcomes.

Posted by lex 2005-01-24 10:44:39 AM|| 2005-01-24 10:44:39 AM|| Front Page Top

#30 For 2x about Canadian health care: as a doc and researcher, I've done the visiting professor thing in a few places in Canada. Basic health care is impressive; specialty care is severely stressed and getting worse.

Example: Manitoba had, on my visit a couple years back, exactly one sleep specialist for the entire province. As a result patients with sleep disorders (4% of a western population) could get a clinic appointment once every two years. Not good.

I have research colleagues in Winnipeg, Vancouver and Toronto, and their message is, things aren't good. Pouring more money into the system probably won't fix it, but it will bankrupt the country.

I'm not smart enough to know how much money Canada needs to spend on its defense -- I'm a doc, not a policymaker. But it strikes me that if you're going to depend on a partnership with your big neighbor to the south for a big part of that defense, you shouldn't be throwing stones.

Posted by Steve White 2005-01-24 10:51:51 AM|| 2005-01-24 10:51:51 AM|| Front Page Top

#31 so does any major Canadian political party want to drop their system, and go to the US system?

and 4% of the population has sleep disorders? I really doubt that 4% of the US population has been treated for sleep disorders, so I expect either theyve got more of em, or not many people take advantage of treatment even when its available, or we have our own forms of rationing.

Posted by Liberalhawk 2005-01-24 11:00:04 AM|| 2005-01-24 11:00:04 AM|| Front Page Top

#32 Canada has a tough decision to make. Does it want to be part of European world or part of the American world. Bush's comment should stimulate some explicit thinking by Canadian planners on this subject.

Posted by Mrs. Davis 2005-01-24 11:02:06 AM|| 2005-01-24 11:02:06 AM|| Front Page Top

#33 Canada's not going anywhere. The less time wasted on the excitable ones, the better. Let's start focusing on the truly significant ASIAN threats and opportunities and stop wasting so much time on euros and canadians who cannot or will not seriously help or harm us regarding the Asian threats.

Posted by lex 2005-01-24 11:15:53 AM|| 2005-01-24 11:15:53 AM|| Front Page Top

#34 LH: and 4% of the population has sleep disorders?

It is more comon than you think.

Approximately 70 million people in the United States are affected by a sleep problem. About 40 million Americans suffer from a chronic sleep disorders, and an additional 20-30 million are affected by intermittent sleep-related problems. However, an overwhelming majority of sleep disorders remain undiagnosed and untreated (National Commission on Sleep Disorders Research, 1992).

Posted by Sobiesky 2005-01-24 11:22:44 AM|| 2005-01-24 11:22:44 AM|| Front Page Top

#35 one only need rantburg a 3AM to believe this is true.

Posted by 2b 2005-01-24 11:25:23 AM|| 2005-01-24 11:25:23 AM|| Front Page Top

#36 Approximately 70 million people in the United States are affected by a sleep problem.

Try booze. That'll be $2000, please.

Posted by BH 2005-01-24 11:36:33 AM|| 2005-01-24 11:36:33 AM|| Front Page Top

#37 I heard my name mentioned so here's my $.02:

I trained w/the Canucks about 7 yrs back. Good lads, take their job serious and are about 10 times more hygenically aware then the Turks. However to quibble - the USMC has the best snipers in the world (I'm obviously biased).

I'm not an expert on health care, I've read/heard that their basic health care is very good but the waiting list for serious operations is quite long. I believe free health care isn't free, just as freedom isn't free. In the end, someone somewhere payed/invested into it. One of my buddies who lives in MT on the canuck border found it cheaper to get rk over there then in the states but would not advise doing anything more serious w/canadian doctors. Again, one man's opinion; I've never had the need to go over there for any length of time.

If what 2xs says is true about them being good on paying down their debt then I say kudos to them.

Other then their insane immigration policies I don't have much issue w/canada. Yes, I think their gun laws are stupid and their sometimes anti-American attitudes bug me but other then that I harbor no ill will toward them. I believe people ultimately get the type of government they're willing to put up with. Same goes w/Mexico whom I definitely not loathe to criticise wrt illegal immigrants. Time to build the wall on the so.border imho. I'm sick of paying for their inept and corrupt governmental policies.

Posted by Jarhead 2005-01-24 11:51:22 AM|| 2005-01-24 11:51:22 AM|| Front Page Top

#38 Wow! You guys didn't even leave any chum in the water for me. Good feeding sharks.

Sadly,

Nemo

Posted by Rightwing 2005-01-24 12:21:54 PM|| 2005-01-24 12:21:54 PM|| Front Page Top

#39 All this talk diverts from the obvious defensiveness of both DoubleStandard and the Canuckistan politicos: They KNOW the situation is essentially parasitic, exploitative, and very one-sided. Defense is a primary duty of the government, while "free" health care is secondary ("Too bad he didn't survive the Terrorist's bomb: It wouldn't have cost him a cent for us to patch him up!").

Now, I like the Canadians. However, sniping does seem to be a national skill of theirs that they practice assiduously, and not just with guns.

My dad was a doctor, and viewed Nationalized medicine as involuntary servitude under masters with half his intelligence, a tenth of his education, and possessing the skill of promising benefits to gullible voters paid for out of someone else's pocket. Better to be treated by a free man who feels he's respected, and paid accordingly, than by a resentful proto-serf who knows he's being exploited. (And worse than both is the doctor or nurse who is delighted with what they get, since it's more than what they are really worth or are capable of...)

Posted by Ptah 2005-01-24 1:02:15 PM|| [http://www.crusaderwarcollege.org] 2005-01-24 1:02:15 PM|| Front Page Top

#40 I should have added approx 85% of Canuckistan's trade is with who???? As I type from my new Shermag office furniture which has a design flaw.

Time for them to stop leeching.

Posted by anonymous2u 2005-01-24 1:38:00 PM|| 2005-01-24 1:38:00 PM|| Front Page Top

#41 As commenters have already noted:
1. Article is evidently in the Bush-hating WaPo..
2. ...and quoting unnamed Canadian gov't source
3. Canada does deserve kudos for better budget discipline than us.
4. The U.S. would certainly be in better *deficit shape* if we had the same per-capita spending on defense as Canada. But could Canada exist safely with a tiny armed force if the U.S. wasn't the providing both a lightning rod and a proxy defense?

Actually I think it would be a canny political move for Canadian leaders to kick back and let the U.S. shoulder the cost of all North American defense. It just wouldn't be right.

Posted by sf 2005-01-24 1:38:54 PM|| [http://sfsays.blogspot.com] 2005-01-24 1:38:54 PM|| Front Page Top

#42 Sobiesky: I've been hearing gripes about overstressed nurses here in the US (specifically Madison, WI). It seems hospitals don't have quite enough nurses, so they stretch the shifts of those they do have. Whether this is due to nursing shortages or bean counters in the back office I couldn't tell you.

Posted by James 2005-01-24 1:39:50 PM|| [http://www.idontknowbut.blogspot.com] 2005-01-24 1:39:50 PM|| Front Page Top

#43 Its the bean counters, James. And money preferentially spent on lovely decorations for the birthing rooms. (One born here, one in Germany. Here the decor was tasteful and soothing in my private room; there they were repainting the concrete walls for the first time in 20 years, but we had lots of nurses coming through that double!)

Posted by trailing wife 2005-01-24 1:48:11 PM|| 2005-01-24 1:48:11 PM|| Front Page Top

#44 not only is it not right, it's not smart.

"Free defense" is kinda like "free health care". It's ok for the routine stuff - but not life-threatening delays, inadequate staffing and overall just not so hot when your family's lives most depends on it.

Posted by 2b 2005-01-24 1:49:38 PM|| 2005-01-24 1:49:38 PM|| Front Page Top

#45 Canada is not a sovreign country. Even tiny Denmark can hoist a flag on Canadian Arctic territory whenever they please.

As I have said before, Canada is but a collection of badly run health care providers. The ultimate socialist disaster.

Posted by john 2005-01-24 2:43:52 PM|| 2005-01-24 2:43:52 PM|| Front Page Top

#46 SW:I have research colleagues in Winnipeg, Vancouver and Toronto, and their message is, things aren't good. Pouring more money into the system probably won't fix it, but it will bankrupt the country.

If you have any doctor friends in Ontario ask them why they have rejected a deal with the government about more spending for health care, because it didn't include a pay raise in the first year of the increased spending. Ontario in particular needs more doctors, not doctors making more money. Keep in mind, the pay raise would not have been large enough to attract more doctors to Ontario, as they claim.

Posted by Rafael 2005-01-24 2:48:10 PM|| 2005-01-24 2:48:10 PM|| Front Page Top

#47 Oh, you mean President Bush got them to go beyond ...eh...

Posted by Captain America 2005-01-24 4:53:57 PM|| 2005-01-24 4:53:57 PM|| Front Page Top

#48 What do people here know about Canada's Education System?
I have a Canadian friend who decided to enroll her daughter in a private school rather than send her to public school. The reason being schools are not so good.

Posted by TMH 2005-01-24 6:04:56 PM|| 2005-01-24 6:04:56 PM|| Front Page Top

#49 My #4 post was a direct response to #2 post. I think it's inappropriate for any American to mock Canada especially since the USA is hardly a study in perfection.

Gun boondoogle of $2 Billion. Big deal. That's chump change as compared to the pork barreling done by US politicians like Trent Lott and John McCain and others.

A non-partisan group called Citizens Against Government Waste has identified $22.9 billion in pork barrel spending crammed into the $388 billion omnibus spending package recently passed by Congress.
http://www.chronwatch.com/content/contentDisplay.asp?aid=11456

As for the wise crack about the Canadians investing $41 Billion over 10 years, hey who are we to criticize Canadians about health care waste of money?
U.S. health expenditures rose by 7.7% in 2003 to nearly $1.7 trillion, and for the first time exceeds 15% of the gross domestic product. Health spending grew by 9.3% in 2002.It is disturbing that private health insurance premiums continue to grow at a faster rate than health insurance benefit outlays," said Karen Davis, president of the Commonwealth Fund. Premiums rose 9.3% in 2003, compared with benefit outlay increases of 8.2%."One consequence is that the net cost of private insurance and program administration is the fastest growing component of total health expenditures at 13.2%," she said. In 2003, health care costs averaged $5,670 per person in the United States, adding up to a total of nearly $1.7 trillion spent on health care.
http://www.ama-assn.org/amednews/2005/01/24/gvsc0124.htm

Here's some Canadian statistics:
Regardless of the political debate, Canada does boast one of the highest life expectancies (about 80 years) and lowest infant morality rates of industrialized countries, which many attribute to Canada's health care system.

Health care expenditures in Canada topped $100 billion in 2001.

Approximately 9.5% of Canada's gross domestic product is spent on health care. In comparison, the United States spends close to 14% of its GDP on health care.

Individually, Canadians spend about $3300 per capita on health care.
http://www.canadian-healthcare.org/index.html

Canadians consistently chose to have the single payer system, so who are we to say our system is better? When Canadians do not want to wait in lines they come to the US and pay out of pocket unlike Mexicans who come across the border so often for medical care that border states are shutting down hospitals due to illegals using emergency care and not paying for the services. As for prescription drug free-loading, blame our own politicians' protectionist policies to the pharmaceutical industry. Canadians are no more "free loading" than Mexico or Israel or the entire world, for that matter, is "free loading" as a result of our being willing victims of pharmaceutical lobbies in Congress.

Pouring more money into the system probably won't fix it, but it will bankrupt the country.
That's a ridiculous doomsday scenario. Canada will never go bankrupt over the funding of its medical system. Canadians will come around to voting in a dual system of health care before such a banqruptcy crises rears its head, much like what what some of the European nations have in place -like Sweden or Switzerland.

As for Canadians not pouring a lot of their tax money into the military, once again that's a pragmatic choice on their part so why do we blame them? Each country does what is their best interest. Mexico issues comic book instructions on how to make best use of US largesse. Israel is contemplating an attack on Iran even though it may put coalition troops in harm's way in Iraq. I've not heard much criticism of either Mexico or Israel on this board for choosing to follow a path that's best for them even if it means down sides for America. Canada does not have to fear terrorism as much as the USA. It rarely interferes in global politics. It is self-sufficient in energy so the need for ME positioning is not necessary.

The USA would need to pay for the missile defense system whether there was Canada next door or whether the USA were an island. I don't see GWB putting Mexico on the spot for paying its share of missile defense, even though Mexico benefits from the US's defense needs. I don't see GWB putting Israel on the spot for all the freebie foreign aid we give it which by and large picks up the tab for Israel's defense system. The USA has some other notable defense free-leading allies and yet only Canada is dumped on. Why is that? And here's a news flash to the usual suspects who peddle their well worn anti-semeticism baiting whenever a criticism of Israel is made - perhaps you should examine your own bigotry against Christians before smearing others.

The fact remains that Canada is our best ally and to consistently find fault with Canada, as appears to be the habit on RB, is unfair especially in light of the fact that allies like Israel and Mexico are given passes for identical or worse behavior.

Posted by 2xstandard 2005-01-24 6:31:22 PM|| 2005-01-24 6:31:22 PM|| Front Page Top

#50 sf: Canada does deserve kudos for better budget discipline than us.

Canada doesn't have better budget discipline - it has tax-and-spend policies - the kind of thing that Reagan decisively stopped by pledging an end to tax hikes. A better budget discipline would involve cutting government spending and taxation in lockstep.

Posted by Zhang Fei 2005-01-24 6:36:34 PM|| [http://timurileng.blogspot.com] 2005-01-24 6:36:34 PM|| Front Page Top

#51 Mexico's an ally? Did I miss an RB Memo?

Posted by Shipman 2005-01-24 6:37:43 PM|| 2005-01-24 6:37:43 PM|| Front Page Top

#52 DS: Regardless of the political debate, Canada does boast one of the highest life expectancies (about 80 years) and lowest infant morality rates of industrialized countries, which many attribute to Canada's health care system.

How much of this is attributable to Canada's lower homicide rate? And to the fact that Canadians have fewer road accidents because they drive less? As to infant mortality rates, how much is due to the fact that the US has inner city parents who can't even take care of themselves, let alone their babies - but Canada doesn't? How about the fact that the US takes in low-skilled immigrants from all over the world whereas Canada only takes in college grads?

Posted by Zhang Fei 2005-01-24 6:42:51 PM|| [http://timurileng.blogspot.com] 2005-01-24 6:42:51 PM|| Front Page Top

#53 The only thing I know about education up north is that anti-Americanism is as much a part of the curriculum as anti-Zionism/semitism is part of the Palestinian curriculum. That is, not a separate course, but part and parcel of everything else. On the other hand, Canadian maps do note the existence of the U.S.

2xstandard, the point of Rantburg is to tease out critical reality from all the information hemorrhaging over the web. As such, criticism of friend and foe alike is a necessary tool. (Snarky comments are just a pleasant bonus.) Both Israel and Mexico have been criticized here, even lambasted, for actions/decisions/policies that they've taken. And Canada, much as you may like it, richly deserves the relatively mild criticism it has received in this particular thread. Oh, and given how rude Canadians are about their southern neighbor, they and you should be glad we as a group choose to address real issues rather than answering in kind as they, and you so richly deserve.

2xstandard, I very strongly recommend you spend some time in Rantburg's archives, say the past few months, and learn enough that you merely sound inquisitive, rather than a self-righteous boor not nearly as knowledgeable as you think you are.

Oh, and with regard to Israel? They get loans from the U.S. to purchase U.S. weaponry, which they have always repaid with interest, as well as being a primary weapons supplier to the U.S. Defense Dept. for the many systems they've developed that are better than the domestic product. The ignorant shit you are spouting walks, talks, and quacks like antisemitism, buddy, if only because you choose to believe hateful falsehoods rather than bothering to determine the truth from primary sources.

Posted by trailing wife 2005-01-24 6:53:13 PM|| 2005-01-24 6:53:13 PM|| Front Page Top

#54 Gun boondoogle of $2 Billion. Big deal. That's chump change as compared to the pork barreling done by US politicians like Trent Lott and John McCain and others.

---

You're comparing a country of 31.5 mil to a country of almost 300m w/different GDPs?

What's 2 b in Loonies?

And if their NHS is so wonderful, why forking out MORE money to get their surgery faster here?

Why have they contracted w/hospitals on our side of the border?

They've lost 20% of their neurosurgeons, IIRC.

Start perusing The Frasier (sp) Institute. I keep a file on Anglosphere socialized medicine. I have a separate file for Canada. You had a better chance of getting an MRI more quickly if you were a dog or cat in one province.

When Canada starts taking in in proportion the amount of immigrants we do, then we'll compare apples to apples.

Canada also has OIL it can tap into and we can't. Would that help our budget?

They free-ride on our military and prescription drugs.

If they start paying their fair share of either, then let's see budget numbers. And again, approx 85% of their trade is w/who?

IIRC, Alberta's starting to take more responsibility for its' citizens itself.

And concur, Mexico's an ally????

Posted by anonymous2u 2005-01-24 8:28:19 PM|| 2005-01-24 8:28:19 PM|| Front Page Top

#55 The only thing I know about education up north is that anti-Americanism is as much a part of the curriculum as anti-Zionism/semitism is part of the Palestinian curriculum
I doubt you have ever spent any time in Canada much less researched its education system to have any support for your know-it-all declaration that the Canadian education system teaches anti-Americanism in the same vein as anti-Zionism is taught in Palesinian schools. What a pantload of narrow minded crap.

As such, criticism of friend and foe alike is a necessary tool. Both Israel and Mexico have been criticized here, even lambasted, for actions/decisions/policies that they've taken.
Pray tell when has that happened? When can anyone say anything in the way of criticism of Israel without the usual it's all about the Jews rants from people like you. And how often are articles posted about the ongoing terrorism threat posed by our porous southern border with Mexico, although this is supposedly a political discussion board about the the threat from terrorists? Open borders with Mexico is a major threat to the US yet I've not seen more than a couple of articles on that subject the past few weeks. The most coverage came from the unverified threat of Chinese nationals smuggled across the Mexican border and supposedly targeting Boston.

The ignorant shit you are spouting walks, talks, and quacks like antisemitism, buddy, if only because you choose to believe hateful falsehoods rather than bothering to determine the truth from primary sources.
You have self-centered paranoia complexes that I have zero interest in exploring on a political discussion board, tw. I am not going to back off from criticizing Israel as a nation because of your unreasonable religious chauvanism or sensitivity or whatever baggage you carry in your psyche. Your bigotry to Christians on a personal level on recent threads defines the phrase "ignorant shit" far better than my objective comments about Israel or Mexico as self-serving nations and imperfect allies.

Posted by 2xstandard 2005-01-24 8:30:51 PM|| 2005-01-24 8:30:51 PM|| Front Page Top

#56 Canada or Mexico an ally? Their neighbors and asÂ JFK's poet said, good fences make good neighbors.

Posted by Mrs. Davis 2005-01-24 8:34:39 PM|| 2005-01-24 8:34:39 PM|| Front Page Top

#57 2x,
I do not know if the Canadian Education system teaches anti-Americanism as intensely as Palestinian schools do but I do know that my friend's daughter's teacher spends about 20 minutes of the class period criticizing America. It is so bad that my friend is about to complain to the School Master. She feels that she should not be paying for an indoctrination in anti-Americanism. She can get that anyway in Canada for free.
Moreover, my observation when living in Saudi was that Canadians were just behind the Saudis when it came to anti-Americanism.

Posted by TMH 2005-01-24 8:51:35 PM|| 2005-01-24 8:51:35 PM|| Front Page Top

#58 2X - caught with your pants down. I, for one example, live in San Diego, but support Israel rabidly as the only democracy in the ME (and no, I'm Roman Catholic). I do want our military to close our border with Mexico to only legal immigrants and worker-visas. I also condemn Israel for working defense tech with China, against our interests. You've been called, culled, dissected, and exposed, pal

Posted by Frank G 2005-01-24 8:55:46 PM|| 2005-01-24 8:55:46 PM|| Front Page Top

#59 sf: Canada does deserve kudos for better budget discipline than us.

It has just occurred to me that governments have budget discipline the way people have budget discipline when they're spending somebody else's cash. Canada doesn't have budget discipline - it has a gun pointed at taxpayers' heads and empties their pockets every chance it gets. Stateside, the government is at least trying to place strict limits on spending by avoiding tax hikes - meaning that any pork gets seriously scrutinized because the funding has to be borrowed.

Posted by Zhang Fei 2005-01-24 9:22:39 PM|| [http://timurileng.blogspot.com] 2005-01-24 9:22:39 PM|| Front Page Top

#60 You have self-centered paranoia complexes that I have zero interest in exploring on a political discussion board, tw.

It appears to me the 'self-centered paranoia' is a good deal closer to you than you would like us to know.

I am not going to back off from criticizing Israel as a nation

Nor should you...

because of your unreasonable religious chauvanism or sensitivity or whatever baggage you carry in your psyche.

Let me get this straight. You think that YOUR views of tw will affect whether you continue to post? Really? That's about as dishonest a thing I have ever seen posted on a public board.

Your bigotry to Christians on a personal level on recent threads defines the phrase "ignorant shit" far better than my objective comments about Israel or Mexico as self-serving nations and imperfect allies.

At least you admit your posts are ignorant 'sh*t.' TW speak/writes from the heart.

Posted by badanov 2005-01-24 9:36:01 PM|| [http://www.rkka.org/title-boris.gif] 2005-01-24 9:36:01 PM|| Front Page Top

#61 Mexico's an ally? Did I miss an RB Memo?

Three months ago. Second paragraph, right after the one about France apologizing for screwing the US in the Security Council.

Posted by Pappy 2005-01-24 10:20:51 PM|| 2005-01-24 10:20:51 PM|| Front Page Top

#62 Thank you, badanov. As always you are kindness personified.

As for you, 2xstandard, perhaps someday I'll allow you to talk to my Catholic husband about my bigotry to[ward] Christians. Or my darling born-again mother-in-law. But I'd suggest you stand well back, and keep your hands in view. They're very protective of me.

Shit I might well be; but unless you are a professor of theology or a priest, it is highly unlikely you are qualified to call me ignorant on this particular subject.

Posted by trailing wife 2005-01-24 10:25:05 PM|| 2005-01-24 10:25:05 PM|| Front Page Top

#63 I do know that my friend's daughter's teacher spends about 20 minutes of the class period criticizing America
Go to any American public school classroom and you'll discover that there's more than 20 minutes devoted to dissing America.

Moreover, my observation when living in Saudi was that Canadians were just behind the Saudis when it came to anti-Americanism.

Did you ever live in Canada? If not, how do you come to the conclusion that Canada is behind S. Arabia for being anti-American?

2X - caught with your pants down. You've been called, culled, dissected, and exposed, pal

Say what? How have been caught with my pants down - in what regard? Defending Canada as a good ally? Suggesting that Canada not be continually dissed for things that other allies are given a free pass for doing?

Let me refresh your memory on the article and specific post that started this whole thread.
The article said that GWB put the Cdn. gov't on the spot for not paying its share of national defense. Post #2 then proceeded to mock Canada on some other issues, which the US itself is not a shining example of perfection - the pot calling the kettle dirty - political boon doogles, costly inefficient health system. Canada is no more free-loading on the USA's defense budget than Mexico is so why should GWB dump on Canada? Even if the USA were an island it would need to spend the identical amount on self defense regardless of Canada being its neighbor. Canada has always pulled its fair share in international affairs. Canadian troops are in Afghanistan and Kosovo unlike either Israeli or Mexican troops. Canada protected Americans in its embassy after the fall of the Shah at great peril to its embassy employees. Canadian airports welcomed US flights and took in American travellers on 9/11. Did Mexico do the same? I think not. As for Israel's foreign aid and military aid from the USA, Congressional records do not support tw's bravado about loans paid back "with interest":
http://www.usembassy.at/en/download/pdf/israel_asst.pdf
Since 1985, theUnited States has provided $3 billion in grants annually to Israel. Since 1976, Israel has been the largest annual recipient of U.S. foreign assistance, and is the largest cumulative recipient since World War II.

In January 1998,Finance Minister Neeman proposed
eliminating the $1.2 billion economic aid and
increasing the $1.8 billion in military aid by
$60 million per year during a 10-year period
beginning in the year 2000. The FY1999,2000, 2001, 2002, and 2003 appropriations bills included cuts of $120 million in economic
aid and an increases of $60 million in military aid for each year. U.S. aid to Israel has some unique aspects, such as loans with repayment waived, or a pledge to provide Israel with economic assistance equal to the amount Israel owes the United States for previous loans. Israel also receives special benefits that may not be
available to other countries, such as the use of
U.S. military assistance for research and
development in the United States, the use of
U.S. military assistance for military purchases
in Israel, or receiving all its assistance in the
first 30 days of the fiscal year rather than in 3
or 4 installments as other countries do.

In addition to the foreign assistance, the
United States has provided Israel with $625
million to develop and deploy the Arrow antimissile missile (an ongoing project), $1.3
billion to develop the Lavi aircraft (cancelled),
$200 million to develop the Merkava tank
(operative), $130 million to develop the high
energy laser anti-missile system (ongoing),
and other military projects. In FY2000 the
United States provided Israel an additional
$1.2 billion to fund the Wye agreement, and in
FY2002 the United States provided an
additional $200 million in anti-terror
assistance.For FY2004, the Administration
requested $480 million in economic, $2.16
billion in military, and $50 million in migration
resettlement assistance. The United
States would continue to allow Israel to spend about 26.3% of the military aid in Israel rather
than in the United States for U.S. produced military equipment Israel is an exception to the
general practice that all U.S. foreign military financing is spent in the United States.

At least Israel votes 92% of the time along with the USA. However, Mexico gets approx. $15 Million of US foreign aid each year and yet Mexico votes against the USA more than 60% of the time in the UN. This is based on statistics compiled by the Heritage Foundation.

Canada does not receive any foreign aid from the USA nor does it cause the US antagonism. The Israel-Palestinian conflict has brought a lot of heat to the US, which is perceived by Muslim countries as favoring Israel. Mexico has not helped the US's situation with S. American and Central American countries. In fact, Fox and Chavez and Castro have been known to be rather chummy.

I stand by my position that Canada is a good long standing ally and if it makes self-serving decisions for its country, it certainly is not any worse and in some ways is more circumspect about causing negative baggage for the USA than either Mexico or Israel. Canada gets dissed alot by RB'ers, and yet I believe we should consider ourselves very fortunate to have Canada as a neighbor and an ally.

fyi, frank, if you want to talk about pants in regards to me, please use the word panties because I am a woman.

Posted by 2xstandard 2005-01-24 10:30:00 PM|| 2005-01-24 10:30:00 PM|| Front Page Top

#64 women don't wear pants? ask my ex-wife :-)

I stand by my statements - Canadians can be our friends - it's a two-way street, and while they ignore the protective umbrella (which FAR overshadows otheefforts and expenditures) we provide, the relationship is in denial. Better to call them on it

Posted by Frank G 2005-01-24 10:37:46 PM|| 2005-01-24 10:37:46 PM|| Front Page Top

#65 Canada does not receive any foreign aid from the USA nor does it cause the US antagonism.

That is a lie. Plenty of Canadian politicians have publically voiced their disdain for the USA since 911.

The Israel-Palestinian conflict has brought a lot of heat to the US, which is perceived by Muslim countries as favoring Israel

Call it what it is. Not a war but Islamic terrorism. And guess what? I favor Israel, no perceptions nor illusions.

I stand by my position that Canada is a good long standing ally and if it makes self-serving decisions for its country, it certainly is not any worse and in some ways is more circumspect about causing negative baggage for the USA than either Mexico or Israel.

Good for you.

please use the word panties because I am a woman.

Now we know.

Posted by badanov 2005-01-24 10:40:19 PM|| [http://www.rkka.org/title-boris.gif] 2005-01-24 10:40:19 PM|| Front Page Top

#66 Ms 2xstandard, thank you for the information on US/Israel funding. I was wrong.

Frank, my mother always said that ladies always wear clean panties under their pants. Being the gentleman that you are, I'm sure that's what you meant by your original statement.

Posted by trailing wife 2005-01-24 11:28:56 PM|| 2005-01-24 11:28:56 PM|| Front Page Top

#67 uh huh... yep....that was it...

Posted by Frank G 2005-01-24 11:36:04 PM|| 2005-01-24 11:36:04 PM|| Front Page Top

00:50 Hupoluck Elmaitle6376
00:46 Croth Hupesing4131
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00:45 Tholuck Hupeanter3756
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23:44 BH
23:36 Frank G
23:28 trailing wife
23:28 OldSpook
23:27 BH
23:12 OldSpook
23:09 OldSpook
23:05 Teddy Kennedy
23:03 OldSpook
23:01 Frank G
23:00 OldSpook
23:00 trailing wife
22:51 trailing wife
22:51 Senator Barbara Boxer
22:50 Frank G
22:48 Frank G
22:48 Senator Barbara Boxer
22:47 Frank G
22:40 badanov