Article

2005-03-03 Europe

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Posted by Bulldog 2005-03-03 4:20:12 AM|| || Front Page|| [5 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 80 with an over/under of 12. See Pappy for chits.

Posted by Shipman 2005-03-03 7:34:23 AM|| 2005-03-03 7:34:23 AM|| Front Page Top

#2 Profligate Greeks failing to live up to their treaty commitments. What do they think they are? Frogs?

Posted by Mrs. Davis 2005-03-03 7:50:27 AM|| 2005-03-03 7:50:27 AM|| Front Page Top

#3 If the various ~~oblasts~~ member states don't keep within the spending limitations, how will the ~~Central Committee~~ Comission be able to skim their share off the top? Just like Andropov and Gorbachev and their "anti-corruption" campaign, which meant to keep the lower levels from stealing the pelf before it got to them, the EU~~SSR~~ reserves corruption to itself.

Posted by Jackal 2005-03-03 8:31:32 AM|| [http://home.earthlink.net/~sleepyjackal/index.html] 2005-03-03 8:31:32 AM|| Front Page Top

#4 "...revelations last year that Greece had cooked its budget books by more than 2pc of GDP every year from 1997 onwards..."
A fine upstanding member of the EU.

"...Eurostat is itself embroiled in scandal... a 'vast enterprise of looting' by top officials, entailing the disappearance of â¬5m (Â£3.4m)... Contracts were awarded off-books to a shadowy network... linked to the officials and their families."
These guys are rehearsing for U.N. jobs?

"EU" and "Greek" in the same thread, imagine that. When Aris shows up, I am not going to post any further comment in this thread. Not even one keystroke. I urge everyone else to do the same, no matter how much tempting bait Aris provides.

Posted by Tom 2005-03-03 8:32:32 AM|| 2005-03-03 8:32:32 AM|| Front Page Top

#5 EU and Greek corruption,Aris must be so proud.Tell me,Aris,since you have no authority(no vote,no recall,no method of holding corrupt EU officials to account)what are you going to do about your precious EU.Let me guess nothing,naadaa,bupkiss.

Posted by Raptor 2005-03-03 8:35:03 AM|| 2005-03-03 8:35:03 AM|| Front Page Top

#6 A leaked memo by investigators described a "vast enterprise of looting" by top officials, entailing the disappearance of â¬5m (Â£3.4m) of taxpayer funds in illegal black accounts. Contracts were awarded off-books to a shadowy network of suppliers linked to the officials and their families.

Huh. Imagine that. Corruption in the EU.

Posted by Robert Crawford 2005-03-03 8:42:30 AM|| [http://www.kloognome.com/] 2005-03-03 8:42:30 AM|| Front Page Top

#7 Raptor and Tom, you are feeding the troll by giving him the attention he so desperately craves. Wouldn't it be great if this thread had one angry response from the troll at the bottom, with no replies?

Posted by gromky 2005-03-03 8:58:57 AM|| 2005-03-03 8:58:57 AM|| Front Page Top

#8 Correct Gromky. Absolutely correct.

Posted by Mrs. Davis 2005-03-03 9:01:37 AM|| 2005-03-03 9:01:37 AM|| Front Page Top

#9 Please, think of the kittens.

Posted by badanov 2005-03-03 9:03:45 AM|| [http://www.rkka.org] 2005-03-03 9:03:45 AM|| Front Page Top

#10 Contracts were awarded off-books to a shadowy network of suppliers linked to the officials and their families.

Sounds like the tenure committee at UC Boulder.

Posted by Shiter Spoluper4654 2005-03-03 9:08:14 AM|| 2005-03-03 9:08:14 AM|| Front Page Top

#11 I suppose the 500-page long "Constitution" details the checks and balances between the Union and the States...

Just like the Union of Socialist Sovietic Republics, indeed. It's shaping up to be the Union of Socialist European Republics.

Posted by Kalle (kafir forever) 2005-03-03 9:17:34 AM|| [http://radio.weblogs.com/0103811/categories/currentEvents/] 2005-03-03 9:17:34 AM|| Front Page Top

#12 Of course France & Germany are going to give it a frosty reception. Weren't they guilty of violating some deficit ceiling that the EU imposed on all countries using the euro?
95% of the budget unaccounted for? Damn... it makes the UN look good! I'd sure feel like a tool if I was the 5% they could track.

Posted by Desert Blondie 2005-03-03 9:26:00 AM|| [http://azjetsetchick.blogspot.com/] 2005-03-03 9:26:00 AM|| Front Page Top

#13 Am I supposed to answer the rhetorical questions posed me, or would that me being an asshat as I've been called in the past whenever I tried to answer rhetorical questions whose questioners didn't actually want a response because it'd be invonvenient for their attempts to present me as incapable of answering?

I think I'll answer.

Tell me,Aris,since you have no authority(no vote,no recall,no method of holding corrupt EU officials to account)

Gee, more false assumptions. Did you actually read the article, and which people are responsible for said corruption, whether it was national officials or EU ones?

I certainly do have a vote that can punish Greek officials cooking their books.

As for me "having no vote" concerning European officials, tell me. Have you even heard of the words "European Parliament"? Do you know that they forced the Sander Commission to resign?

And as for "vote, recall" and etc, etc, etc, I've done the most I can to support democracy in the European Union -- most of the ones who lyingly claim that their objection to the EU concerns the lack of democracy there, are also the ones who never support any move at all that tries to fill the democratic deficit. Ask the Brit people here. Ask them whether they would wish to see a directly elected President of the European Commission. *I* definitely would want to see such a one.

And, gromky, your false assumptions about my "reactions" are as idiotic as the people whom you addressed.

People asking about the difference about trolls and me, have their answer yet again. It's not me who tries to bait people into responding. It's others who try to bait *me* to a response, using insults, innuendos, jabs and whatever else they think most likely to succeed.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2005-03-03 9:36:26 AM|| [http://www.livejournal.com/~katsaris/] 2005-03-03 9:36:26 AM|| Front Page Top

#14 Aris isn't a troll, he does provide a different perspective. Much like Murat. We could really use him now.

It's not his fault history is against this. Isn't that the St. Crispin's Day speech, we merry band of buggered.

Well, that's how Joss Whedon interpreted it.

Posted by anonymous2u 2005-03-03 10:46:54 AM|| 2005-03-03 10:46:54 AM|| Front Page Top

#15 spot checks ?

"DAHLING, I'm all for spot checks"

Posted by BigEd 2005-03-03 12:43:27 PM|| 2005-03-03 12:43:27 PM|| Front Page Top

#16 Damnit! I've serious money on this thread.

Posted by Shipman 2005-03-03 5:09:12 PM|| 2005-03-03 5:09:12 PM|| Front Page Top

#17 Aris,the other day I ask about the EU and voting/holding EU bearuacrats to account.The answers I got(questions that you either did not see or ignored)are were limited,no,no,no,no.So your democratic EU isn't.

Posted by Raptor 2005-03-03 5:28:52 PM|| 2005-03-03 5:28:52 PM|| Front Page Top

#18 Raptor, "my EU" is suffering from a democratic deficit that I've never denied.

I had seen your questions but I believe they'd been answered already by the time I saw that post of yours.

What you don't understand is the way that eradicating that democratic deficit (which I strongly wish) to a very great extent means a further removal of national vetos, and thus, of national sovereignty.

Let's say that the European people directly elect the President of the Commission, the way they currently aren't able to do.

Do you know what this means? It means that Britain alone (and any other nation) would no longer be capable of *vetoing* those people that they don't like for the job.

Each nation currently has the right to veto the position of the President of the Commission -- with a directly elected President, the individual nations would lose that right.

So, please consider that for a moment, and think real carefully whether it's the europhobes or the europhiles which stand in the way of democratizing the Union. In order to establish full democratic accountability on a European level, you have to first *further* let go of national sovereignty.

Barrosso was installed as the product of compromise, one acceptable to the UK. Directly elect the President of the Commission (as I'd prefer), and the UK no longer gets such a veto.

So now, yet again, I ask you to inquire Bulldog or Howard UK or any of the anti-EU British chaps here, whether they'd prefer to forego this national veto in order to have the position directly elected from the European public.

I'm all in favour of direct election of the position myself. But I've never yet met a europhobe who has been in favour of it.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2005-03-03 7:33:28 PM|| [http://www.livejournal.com/~katsaris/] 2005-03-03 7:33:28 PM|| Front Page Top

#19 You know guys, Aris does have a point here. The problem with his "democracy deficit" is true. To have a true EU all the members have to give up a lot of sovereignty. Equivalent to the difference between States and the Feds here.

Now, the problem is that the EuroFeds don't want to live with the kind of constitution that we have where there powers are enumerated and constrained and all the bureaucrats are answerable to elected officials.

The guys pushing the EU WANT an oligarchy that is not democratic and the guys fighting the EU don't want a democratic EU either (they want a trade association as far as I can tell). So, no one other than maybe Aris types really want a democratic EU. Good luck Aris, doubt that you've got the power.

Posted by AlanC 2005-03-03 8:03:31 PM|| 2005-03-03 8:03:31 PM|| Front Page Top

#20 AlanC, the people pushing for the EU have different things in mind. I believe that some of these people are indeed seeking a democratic EU.

Giscard d'Estaign has for example been often vilified here, doomed by association it seems, but from what I've judged of him he seems to indeed be democratic. For example -- I believe he had wanted it inserted into the EU Constitution that future amendments would have to pass through a Europe-wide referendum.

A democratic idea. This idea was rejected however in favour of the present situation where each nation ratifies the way it wants -- this means that the political nations of each nation will unfortunately still be able to reject or accept or choose to hold referendums on each issue, as they see fit.

But nonetheless other democratic improvements over the functioning remained in the EU Constitution, such as the Citizen's initiative where a million signatures by European citizens can propose new laws.

The question of directly electing EU officials besides the Parliament is kept on being posed with greater frequency. National referenda on participation in EU politics are kept being made with greater and greater frequency.

The (directly elected) European Parliament is likewise slowly seizing more power for itself. It recently rejected several choices for Commissioners, forcing Barrosso to send some away and shuffle others. It's turning back laws like the software patent thingy that displease it.

Yes, all democratic progress is going at a snail's pace. But I definitely think it's going at a snail's pace towards a democratic direction. Some institutions (like rotating presidencies, undemocratic by nature) are in their way abolished. Their replacements are still only indirectly elected, but it's a step to the right direction.

A tiny step, but a step nonetheless.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2005-03-03 9:29:15 PM|| [http://www.livejournal.com/~katsaris/] 2005-03-03 9:29:15 PM|| Front Page Top

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