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2005-08-14 Europe
Cypriot plane with 121 passengers crashes in Greece
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Posted by True German Ally 2005-08-14 06:38|| || Front Page|| [10 views since 2007-05-07]  Top

#1 German press reports that the pilots had collapsed in their seat. One interpretation is that a malfunctioning of the air condition poisoned the pilots but terrorist background can't be ruled out.
Posted by True German Ally 2005-08-14 06:42||   2005-08-14 06:42|| Front Page Top

#2 pilot was seen slumped in his seat

By the F-16 pilot?
Posted by Shipman 2005-08-14 07:56||   2005-08-14 07:56|| Front Page Top

#3 Yes.

Lack of oxygen most probable cause now. Yet I wonder a bit: To fly from Cyprus to Athens would be a short flight, you wouldn't fly at such a high altitude where lack of oxygen would be a real problem.
Posted by True German Ally 2005-08-14 08:49||   2005-08-14 08:49|| Front Page Top

#4 Correction: That plane was flying to Prague which would justify the altitude.
Posted by True German Ally 2005-08-14 08:56||   2005-08-14 08:56|| Front Page Top

#5 ...FNC is saying there was a text message from someone on the plane right before it went in that said, "ALL FROZEN". My guess would be a decompression at altitude.

Mike
Posted by Mike Kozlowski 2005-08-14 09:33||   2005-08-14 09:33|| Front Page Top

#6 Isn't that what happened to that professional golfer's plane about five years ago? (Rapid decompression)
Posted by Desert Blondie 2005-08-14 09:50|| http://azjetsetchick.blogspot.com]">[http://azjetsetchick.blogspot.com]  2005-08-14 09:50|| Front Page Top

#7 Still rapid decompression should not lead to two pilots being unconscious unless the oxygen masks failed.
Posted by True German Ally 2005-08-14 10:00||   2005-08-14 10:00|| Front Page Top

#8 Yeah TGA, this is a commercial airliner, catastrophic loss of pressure would bring down the masks.... very strange. Maybe a bad environmental control system?
Posted by Shipman 2005-08-14 10:07||   2005-08-14 10:07|| Front Page Top

#9 Payne Stewart's plane crash
Posted by Seafarious">Seafarious  2005-08-14 10:07||   2005-08-14 10:07|| Front Page Top

#10 If it came from Cyprus...who was on the plane might be a much better place to start an investigation from.
Posted by 3dc 2005-08-14 10:14||   2005-08-14 10:14|| Front Page Top

#11 Yes, and if it was at cruising altitude the plane should have been on autopilot, too. But if the pilots were still able to initiate an emergency descent, the oxygen masks should have worked.

Let's not count out a bomb that fast.
Posted by True German Ally 2005-08-14 10:14||   2005-08-14 10:14|| Front Page Top

#12 Let's host the investigation from Benon Sevan's apartment...set up a phone bank so worried relatives can call in, lots of TV cameras, etc.
Posted by Seafarious">Seafarious  2005-08-14 10:16||   2005-08-14 10:16|| Front Page Top

#13 Thanks, Sea. Couldn't remember the name...haven't had my caffeine yet. ;)

CNN is reporting no survivors, terrorism has been determined to be not likely. More likely is a failure of the oxygen or pressurization systems.

Apparently one of the passengers text messaged his cousin that it was really cold in the plane.

Thoughts and prayers for the families of the lost.
Posted by Desert Blondie 2005-08-14 10:22|| http://azjetsetchick.blogspot.com]">[http://azjetsetchick.blogspot.com]  2005-08-14 10:22|| Front Page Top

#14 watch the elevator shaft
Posted by Frank G">Frank G  2005-08-14 10:25||   2005-08-14 10:25|| Front Page Top

#15 How would one send a text message from an airplane? this part sounds dubious.
Posted by Kalle (kafir forever) 2005-08-14 10:29||   2005-08-14 10:29|| Front Page Top

#16 The plane was scheduled for a landing in Athens so I wonder a bit about the altitude. It's rather unlikely that it would climb to an altitude of 30000 ft or more for a short haul.

Rapid decompression is something pilots are trained for and they'll grab the oxygen masks in seconds.

The Boeing 737-300 has various emergency systems which must have failed at the same time? Hmmmm
Posted by True German Ally 2005-08-14 10:29||   2005-08-14 10:29|| Front Page Top

#17 Kalle, if the plane was flying at low altitude close to land the GSM system could have worked.
Posted by True German Ally 2005-08-14 10:30||   2005-08-14 10:30|| Front Page Top

#18 what sounds stranger to me is: How could a passenger know that the pilots were unconscious?
Posted by True German Ally 2005-08-14 10:32||   2005-08-14 10:32|| Front Page Top

#19 TGA, maybe he was younger and in better shape than the pilot. (Besides, one of the F-16's reported that the pilot wasn't in the cockpit. Maybe he was trying to get to the passenger compartment and passed out there?) He might have been able to hold out a bit longer.

Plus some kids are really good at text messaging. They can do it without even looking at the keypad.
Posted by Desert Blondie 2005-08-14 10:42|| http://azjetsetchick.blogspot.com]">[http://azjetsetchick.blogspot.com]  2005-08-14 10:42|| Front Page Top

#20 Desert Blondie if one pilot tried to look after the passengers he would have to make sure first that the other pilot would be safely flying the plane? If the pilot had his oxygen mask on (as the F16 pilot reported, he should have been able to land that plane safely.

Unless the oxygen system in the masks shut down. But in that case I don't see passengers typing away on their phones.
Posted by True German Ally 2005-08-14 10:52||   2005-08-14 10:52|| Front Page Top

#21 Any news on who was onboard? two friends were due to fly today from Cyprus to London and I'm extremely worried.
Posted by Kalle (kafir forever) 2005-08-14 11:59||   2005-08-14 11:59|| Front Page Top

#22 Kalle it is unlikely that your friends would have taken a flight from Cyprus to Prague if they were going to London.
Flight number is ZU522

Helios Airways
Posted by True German Ally 2005-08-14 12:10||   2005-08-14 12:10|| Front Page Top

#23 For the plane to be intercepted, the plane flew for some time. The plane was probably in a gradual descent and the pilots most likely would have had time to recover from decompression. The passengers themselves do not seemed to have been incapacitated.

Payne Stewart's plane was on autopilot at high altitude, and crashed when fuel ran out.

One bit of speculation. Could it have been a bomb in the forward lavatory directed in the bulkhead shared with the cockpit, incapacitating the pilots and causing decompression?
Posted by ed 2005-08-14 12:13||   2005-08-14 12:13|| Front Page Top

#24 I hate to ask this, but I remember the Egyptian pilot who sent his plane down into the sea, passengers and all, a while back.

And word on the identity - and ethnicity - of the pilot and crew? What with Cyprus being a hot issues for Islamacists and nationalists in Turkey ....
Posted by too true 2005-08-14 12:21||   2005-08-14 12:21|| Front Page Top

#25 Thanks TGA, however news is that less than half of the passengers were going to Praque and I can't get through to my friends.
Posted by Kalle (kafir forever) 2005-08-14 12:23||   2005-08-14 12:23|| Front Page Top

#26 I suppose the others were just going to Athens where the plane was scheduled to make a stop.
I have also read that almost all passengers were Cypriots, are yours?
Posted by True German Ally 2005-08-14 12:29||   2005-08-14 12:29|| Front Page Top

#27 Thanks. I've checked the timetables and it doesn't look like it'd make sense for them to fly to the UK via Athens, so I'm feeling less worried. They're a Viking and Kiwi, just on holiday.
Posted by Kalle (kafir forever) 2005-08-14 12:41||   2005-08-14 12:41|| Front Page Top

#28 Fox sez they have recovered the "black boxes"
Posted by Frank G">Frank G  2005-08-14 12:49||   2005-08-14 12:49|| Front Page Top

#29 TGA, it's just speculation. When they finish with the black boxes, we'll have a better idea.

All I know is oxygen deprivation can make you do some pretty stupid things. That's why some mountain climbing expeditions have done things like figure out simple math equations after they have been at altitude for a while....if they can't, they're done. It's a sign that they aren't thinking clearly if 2+3 takes a minute or two. Otherwise they could get themselves and others killed.

Same thing for scuba diving. You go deep (80-130 feet, depends on the individual) on compressed air and you risk nitrogen narcosis. Divers don't get the oxygen they need to their brains and start doing dumb things like offering their regulators (breathing apparatus) to fish, or heading deeper when they say they are going to the surface. Some get violent or agitated. It can even hit you hard at 80 feet, and you'll be perfectly ok at 100. Nobody really knows why. We all just watch each other more closely if we're going deep, just in case.

Kalle - Hope you hear from your friends soon.
Posted by Desert Blondie 2005-08-14 13:16|| http://azjetsetchick.blogspot.com]">[http://azjetsetchick.blogspot.com]  2005-08-14 13:16|| Front Page Top

#30 TGA: Larnaca-Athens is still a relatively lengthy flight. Someone on airliners.net reported the flight plan was filed for 34,000 feet. At that altitude, they would have two problems: oxygen and the freezing cold. Even if they had oxygen, how long could they last with -50 celsius temperatures? Not long. Though on autopilot, they should have been able to get down to below 10,000 feet.

Maintenance records will solve this one, I believe.
Posted by Rafael 2005-08-14 13:53||   2005-08-14 13:53|| Front Page Top

#31 Thanks TGA and DB -- my friends called and are fine.
Posted by Kalle (kafir forever) 2005-08-14 14:42||   2005-08-14 14:42|| Front Page Top

#32 Oh great :-)
Posted by True German Ally 2005-08-14 14:49||   2005-08-14 14:49|| Front Page Top

#33 How would one send a text message from an airplane?

On GSM phones, you can send the message without a signal being present. The message is put in the "outbox" of the phone and once the connection is established (at lower altitude, closer to Athens in this case) the message is sent without further action from the user. At least, that's how it works on my motorola.
Posted by Rafael 2005-08-14 14:50||   2005-08-14 14:50|| Front Page Top

#34 A friend of mine flies Lears, and Paine Stewart's plane probably had a fitting leak in the O2 line from the reserve bottle. That was a problem for the older Lears. So when they lost pressurization they had not O2. And at altitude, hypoxia and unconsciousness comes quickly. On the Bo-jet, do not know the checklist, but one would think that they would have had reserve oxygen. We are just going to have to see what the flight data recorder and voice recorders come up with.
Posted by Alaska Paul 2005-08-14 15:03||   2005-08-14 15:03|| Front Page Top

#35 Last time I was in an commercial airplane cockpit, I distinctly recall seeing an oxygen bottle with a mask attached. Does anyone know if its standard? Otherwise, sudden decompression by accident would be an extremely rare event. I can't recall it happening in a commercial airliner. Which indicates a bomb to me.
Posted by phil_b 2005-08-14 15:47||   2005-08-14 15:47|| Front Page Top

#36 If it was an act of terrorism, the odds are about 80/20 that it will be covered up. There are three main reasons for this. The terrorist tactic is used to garner the most amount of attention with the least amount of effort. Official denial is an effective method of squelching this.

The second reason is the bureaucratic self-defence mechnaism. If there's no failure, there's nothing to be held accountable for.

The final, and perhaps most important reason, is that acts of terrorism really can't be countered by traditional law enforcement methods. The threat must ultimately be handled through diplomacy or military action. The role of the cops is simple: declare that there is no evidence of terrorist involvement.

One of the easiest acts of terrorism to cover up is bringing down a single airplane. Such an act doesn't leave much intact evidence on the ground, and with airplanes one can put out all kinds of BS technical excuses why the thing crashed -- or even describe the mechanical failure e.g. "center wing fuel tank explosion" but not the reason for that faliure, e.g. "a bomb." It's much more difficult to explain simultaneous events. The Russians hemmed and hawed for a couple of days last summer before they admitted the obvious - that bombs brought down both Aeroflot craft at the same time.
Posted by Rory B. Bellows 2005-08-14 17:51||   2005-08-14 17:51|| Front Page Top

#37 Curioser and curioser. CNN reports a witness saying that the bodies at the crash site were all wearing oxygen masks. The BBC says that the escort saw people in the cockpit struggling to take control, but didn't know if they were the pilots or passengers. This, says the Beeb, was on "second look" by the escort, whatever that may mean exactly.
Posted by Angie Schultz 2005-08-14 17:57|| http://darkblogules.blogspot.com]">[http://darkblogules.blogspot.com]  2005-08-14 17:57|| Front Page Top

#38 Well the aircraft was reported to have had problems with cabin pressure before. It doesn't look like terror to me (yet).

There are reports that all passengers wore oxygen masks and that some bodies were frozen. This would indicate that the aircraft did not perform a rapid descent.

I speculate that cabin pressurization failed dramatically AND the oxygen flow of the masks did not work properly. This means that TWO systems failed at the same time. An aircraft does not freeze within a minute or two and the first thing the pilots would have done is to bring the plane to lower altitudes where breathing works an temperatures would not kill you.

I have been in a situation like that. Oxygen masks drop, cabin gets foggy, plane performs a very rapid descent which makes some passengers panic but a few minutes later you can breathe without masks and things calm down.

If the aircraft was cruising at 34000ft altitude and did not perform a descent because the pilots were unconscious, then the scenario makes sense. At that altitude you have temperatures of -50° C and within minutes you'd freeze to death.

The question is: why did the cabin pressurization fail so dramatically? It would take some minutes to "freeze" the cabin unless there was a hole and the air evaporated very fast.

Helios Airways would probably prefer a "terrorist" cause. If they had these problems several times already and did not act, the company is dead.
Posted by True German Ally 2005-08-14 18:25||   2005-08-14 18:25|| Front Page Top

#39 Apply Occam's Razor and you will find the answer. Mechanical failure or human error both as the causality. Why would a terrorist attack a Cypriot aircraft?
Posted by Sock Puppet 0’ Doom 2005-08-14 18:34||   2005-08-14 18:34|| Front Page Top

#40 Get a bomb on board a plane at a place with poor security and have it transferred to a plane with high security. The MO was used several times in the 80s. Bomb explodes prematurely as happened in Tokyo.
Posted by phil_b 2005-08-14 18:39||   2005-08-14 18:39|| Front Page Top

#41 Why would a terrorist hit a Cypriot plane?
Because half of Cypris has been taken over by Muslim Islamist Turks and they want the other half, that's why!
Posted by Morgle the friendly drelb">Morgle the friendly drelb  2005-08-14 18:41||   2005-08-14 18:41|| Front Page Top

#42 Occam's Razor sez 2 systems don't fail simultaneously without a single cause. Which points toward a bomb.
Posted by phil_b 2005-08-14 18:49||   2005-08-14 18:49|| Front Page Top

#43 This means that TWO systems failed at the same time

If this was the newer 737-800, then it's unlikely that this would happen unless the company had a lousy maintenance record. But then again it could be a chain of unfortunate events, eg. multiple mechanical failures, wrong decisions by crew, time...

August so far has been a lousy month for aviation. Hope it doesn't continue.
Posted by Rafael 2005-08-14 18:51||   2005-08-14 18:51|| Front Page Top

#44 I think a bomb is one possible cause, I also think lazy crappy maintaince is a cause. I have had to systems fail on me so I know it can happen (not on an aircraft fortunately)

If it is a bomb we will know soon enough but the Greeks will try and cover it up if it was a bomb.

I thought newer planes cargo containers had been re-enginered to contain a blast?
Posted by Sock Puppet 0’ Doom 2005-08-14 19:19||   2005-08-14 19:19|| Front Page Top

#45 This article informs us that this airline had a loss of cabin pressure incident in Dec 04. Lousy maintenance is a possibility. But the freezing thing bothers me, as TGA mentions.

Morgle's point about Turkish presence in Cyprus my be important. Remember Ankara just broke up a Raiders Front (or whatever they're called) operation to attack Israeli cruise ships. A few of the involved hadn't been caught yet, and they may have chosen to go out in style...

I saw a report that the Greek PM and Prez cancelled their vacations.

Posted by Rory B. Bellows 2005-08-14 19:32||   2005-08-14 19:32|| Front Page Top

#46 Cyprus is handy for Israeli. Attempted 9/11 in Tel Aviv is another possibility. Crew resists. Explosive goes off in cockpit.
Posted by phil_b 2005-08-14 19:51||   2005-08-14 19:51|| Front Page Top

#47 Rooters now saying many remains found with oxygen masks. Pilots apparently succumbed to hypoxia. Some passengers tried to regain control of plane as it lost altitude and they revived. Obviously, they failed. God bless em all.
Posted by 11A5S 2005-08-14 20:24||   2005-08-14 20:24|| Front Page Top

#48 The crash was reported by F-16 pilots sent to aid the struggling plane

This may be a stupid question - but why would F-16 pilots be sent to aid a plane if it wasn't terrorism? What could they do to help?
Posted by 2b 2005-08-14 22:10||   2005-08-14 22:10|| Front Page Top

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