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2006-06-20 Home Front: Culture Wars
Presbyterians Think Of Changing 'Father, Son, Holy Spirit'
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Posted by Fred 2006-06-20 00:00|| || Front Page|| [4 views since 2007-05-07]  Top

#1 Words fail. Another demonstration of why the mainline protestant denominations are in decline. How politically correct can the church become before it ceases to be Christian and becomes an irrelevant social club? This sort of nonsense is why Christianity is under attack in the West,it doesn't fight back.
Posted by RWV 2006-06-20 00:28||   2006-06-20 00:28|| Front Page Top

#2 "amphibian, entropy, bicycle" said Joe Biden, the town idiot. He was immediately annointed Bishop, until it was discovered he'd stolen the phrase from "Patches" Kennedy, a true town idiot from an adjoining Dem hotbed
Posted by Frank G">Frank G  2006-06-20 00:34||   2006-06-20 00:34|| Front Page Top

#3 What? Not even honorable mention?

Sincerely,

Jesus
Posted by Captain America 2006-06-20 00:35||   2006-06-20 00:35|| Front Page Top

#4 bleah - the reason why I don't go to Presbyterian, Methodist or any of the other main churches anymore. Between their disinvestment in Israel and more importantly their disinvestment in Christ - no reason to waste time and money just to hear the latest Democratic talking points. Lots of Spirituality going on in those churches - just not any Christianity.
Posted by 2b 2006-06-20 00:38||   2006-06-20 00:38|| Front Page Top

#5 I became a Catholic as a young adult. One of the advantages, I've found, is that there's a certain comfort in having had 2,000 years of theological arguments. The Church knows what it is and why it's here.
Posted by Steve White">Steve White  2006-06-20 00:58||   2006-06-20 00:58|| Front Page Top

#6 This has got Rantburg Contest(TM) written all over it.

My suggestion: Judge, Jury and Executioner.
Posted by Tibor 2006-06-20 01:44||   2006-06-20 01:44|| Front Page Top

#7 In the end times, Christ will be knocking on the door of churches from the outside, churches run by false prophets and anti-Christs...
Posted by Gromosh Elminegum5705 2006-06-20 02:08||   2006-06-20 02:08|| Front Page Top

#8 GE...you are so right. A major portion of the Apocrypha deals with the 'False Church". I've spent my entire life attending my local FUMC. After the divestment debacle. I lost interest. Since then it's turned to disgust. Plenty of other congregations out there that "get it", and they seem to be well attended.
Posted by Rex Mundi 2006-06-20 03:09||   2006-06-20 03:09|| Front Page Top

#9 What I find amazing is the sheer number of mainline Protestant churches that seem intent on commiting theological suicide. If you cannot even address the basics of Christianity : the divinity of Christ, the Holy Trinity, and the basic Biblical wording, how can you continue to call yourself Christian? And furthermore, why would you bother to? If the root basis of Christianity is so repellent to you, why not simply leave? Sometimes, the warnings that Jesus gave the Pharisees about their empty public displays of religiosity seem to fairly scream for these churches.
Posted by Shieldwolf 2006-06-20 03:30||   2006-06-20 03:30|| Front Page Top

#10 "God is male" > besides the fact that both Christ and Mother Mary refer to God as "He", i.e. in the masculine, the Big Kahuna, Not "He-She", "She",
"It", "We" or other. Works for me.
Posted by JosephMendiola 2006-06-20 03:43||   2006-06-20 03:43|| Front Page Top

#11 Why not "Democracy, Whiskey, Sexy"?
Posted by Desert Blondie 2006-06-20 06:44|| http://azjetsetchick.blogspot.com]">[http://azjetsetchick.blogspot.com]  2006-06-20 06:44|| Front Page Top

#12 Whoops, forgot to add something.

If the whole idea is to have gender-inclusive speech, and they had to include a body part to do it, why did they use one that men don't have?

It's not like when Christ was on the cross and ready to breathe his last, he uttered something like "Father, unto you I commend my womb"! (True, I wasn't there, but I'll take a wild guess and say he said nothing of the kind.....)

If they are going to be this silly, how about using a body part we all share, like "Mother, Child, Pancreas"?
Posted by Desert Blondie 2006-06-20 07:18|| http://azjetsetchick.blogspot.com]">[http://azjetsetchick.blogspot.com]  2006-06-20 07:18|| Front Page Top

#13 I prefer "Big Daddy, Junior, and the Spook" myself.
Posted by Darth VAda 2006-06-20 07:22||   2006-06-20 07:22|| Front Page Top

#14 Eenie, Meenie, Minie, Mo. Pick a spirit by the ...
Posted by ed 2006-06-20 07:22||   2006-06-20 07:22|| Front Page Top

#15 Why not "Democracy, Whiskey, Sexy"?

That's what my church holds to!

(Well, that and the fourth coming of Cthulhu. But we try not to talk about that too much.)
Posted by Rob Crawford">Rob Crawford  2006-06-20 07:23|| http://www.kloognome.com/]">[http://www.kloognome.com/]  2006-06-20 07:23|| Front Page Top

#16 Ah, the adorable ignorance of the pseudo-intellectual! Of course the Church originally referred to the Triune God in masculine form; all the languages used at the time -- Aramaic (the language Jesus would have used for everyday conversation), Greek (the other language Jesus would have used, for commerce in his carpentry business), even Latin (the main language of many of the Roman troops)-- were masculine-default, so that the masculine form was used whenever the subject wasn't specifically feminine. Reasonably intelligent people realize this does not imply a sexual identity unless specified, although for the sake of argument I'm willing to concede that Jesus was, indeed, male. Parent, Child, Holy Spirit is the proper neuter form, although not terribly evocative in its bare bones formulation. *shrug* Perhaps they should try alternating masculine and feminine forms in alternate prayers, or go with the all-inclusive Father/Mother/Parental Hermaphrodite, Daughter/Son/Undefined Offspring, Holy Spirit/Ghost/Other We Don't Quite Grasp... although that would nearly double the length of the service.

As for that womb thingy -- ick. There are things I'd prefer not to think about, especially when celebrating the wonderfulness of Creation and all.
Posted by trailing wife 2006-06-20 07:50||   2006-06-20 07:50|| Front Page Top

#17 How about "Rum, Romanism, and rebellion."

Rum -- adult beverages, the consumption of which He specifically approves.

Romanism -- as in Roman Catholic Church

rebellion -- Christianity is countercultural, it rebels against worldly things. Luke 12:15-23
Posted by Mike 2006-06-20 07:57||   2006-06-20 07:57|| Front Page Top

#18 Tinker, Evers, Chance
Posted by Seafarious">Seafarious  2006-06-20 08:40||   2006-06-20 08:40|| Front Page Top

#19 And here you have, in a nutshell, why I don't believe in ANY religion made of man.

If there is a God, (I don't know), he/she/it can speak directly to me. Until that time I will put no faith in some bozo's imagination and drive for power, glory, money or whatever other reason they really have.

If there is 1 true religion, it was true 2000 years ago and it is true today, no changes needed. But there wasn't then and isn't now.
Posted by AlanC">AlanC  2006-06-20 08:57||   2006-06-20 08:57|| Front Page Top

#20 I kind of like "The Daddyo, The Laddyo, and the Spook.
Posted by Deacon Blues">Deacon Blues  2006-06-20 09:25||   2006-06-20 09:25|| Front Page Top

#21 "Shampoo, Rinse, Repeat"...
Posted by tu3031 2006-06-20 09:27||   2006-06-20 09:27|| Front Page Top

#22 My synagogue is providing a temporary home to a local Presby church whose building is being renovated (they did the same for us a few years ago) I dont care what they call the trinity, but I very much hope they join with those congregations opposing divestment from Israel. We are not giving them political tirades, but just being hospitable. Though if they look at our bulletin boards with event listings, they might learn something about how faith and peoplehood are interwoven for us, and how much Israel means to us.

My kids reaction when we were there on a Sunday, and passed outside the sanctuary - "Its so quiet, theres no one talking in the lobby" :)
Posted by liberalhawk 2006-06-20 09:28||   2006-06-20 09:28|| Front Page Top

#23 TW - thats true for Hebrew too, and my rabbi once gave a great sermon on why we would go with gender neutral instances in SOME places where it flowed naturally (using the name G-d instead of the pronoun "he" wherever possible) but would keep the masculine language where gender neutral language focused ones mind on gender rather than the content of the prayer, or was seriously misleading about the Hebrew (which we do not change - at least not at my synagogue - though our prayerbook DOES include an alternative formulation of the amidah - instead of the traditional G-d of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, you can say (silently) G-d of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, Sarah, Rebecca, Rachel and Leah)

In any case we have fully egalitarian participation in all aspects of the service, which is a big deal in traditional Judaism, and is more important than the gender neutral language, I think.
Posted by liberalhawk 2006-06-20 09:36||   2006-06-20 09:36|| Front Page Top

#24 "Moe, Larry, and Curly!" (and sometimes Shemp...)
Posted by borgboy 2006-06-20 10:00||   2006-06-20 10:00|| Front Page Top

#25 Jesus used the trinity to teach about God and God's relationship to humanity. I believe God is the source, while the Holy Spirit is the living force within a human. The Son of God would be the connection between the two. Therefore, The divine source, the state of grace, and the aura.
Jesus had achieved the state of grace and he referred to himself as the Son of God. His intention was to share the state of grace with his apostles and establish the necessary standards for them to continue the sharing of grace throughout the ascent of man.
Furthermore, man failed to grasp these subtle teachings and today's religions are mere pompus institutions. They use dedicated routine and refer to the bible, but any connection with the state of grace is purely accidental.
Because of the nature of the state of grace, it would be quite impossible for a priest to be a pedofile. Yet, today, the church has grown so far from it's original intentions, anything is possible within.

I will try to answer any questions you may have.
Posted by wxjames 2006-06-20 10:07||   2006-06-20 10:07|| Front Page Top

#26 "Hinckle, Dinkle, and Nod"
"Nick, Mike, and Mustard"
"Pooh, Piglet, and Eeyore"
"Gog, Magog, and Eggnog"
"Groucho, Chico, and Harpo"
"Borg, Cardassian, and Dominion"
"Earth, Air, and Water" (not Fire. "Fire baaad!")
"Bring the troops home, Impeach Bush, Elect Hillary"
Posted by Anonymoose 2006-06-20 10:48||   2006-06-20 10:48|| Front Page Top

#27 Yet another daily news item apparently plucked from the pages of ScrappleFace. Is it a sign of Impending OldFartdom that you can remember when the Methodists and Presbyterians were the sensible shoes of religious denominations? Personally, I hope they go with the "rock, paper, scissors" thing. It has a certain New Age Zen Trinity flavor.

Anyone for the Church of the SubGenius? At least those guys have a sense of humor. Praise "Bob".
Posted by SteveS 2006-06-20 10:52||   2006-06-20 10:52|| Front Page Top

#28 the Great Spirit of the aboriginal North Americans
best describes it. It's also a private matter.
Goons openly discuss it like they have some kind of divine insight. They fail to remember that humans are "just" animals like all the other animals.
Posted by bk 2006-06-20 11:01||   2006-06-20 11:01|| Front Page Top

#29 AlanC, well said.
Posted by Broadhead6 2006-06-20 11:10||   2006-06-20 11:10|| Front Page Top

#30 SteveS: The SubGenii definitely have some interesting theology, like the Short Duration Personal Savior, the Short Duration Marriage that only lasts one hour, holding "devivals" instead of "revivals", with "sickenings" instead of "healings", "Bob"-tisms, and of course the Sex Goddesses from Planet X that will descend in their pleasure saucers on July 5th, 1998 to pick up all the SubGenises just before the world is destroyed.

They're more orthodox than the Episcopalians.

At least they acknowledge the existence of a supreme being, and you don't *have* to be an atheist to become a Bishop.
Posted by Anonymoose 2006-06-20 11:18||   2006-06-20 11:18|| Front Page Top

#31 bk, I concur whole heartedly w/your great spirit analogy. However, not to trifle but we're not like other animals - at least they don't fight over religion.
Posted by Broadhead6 2006-06-20 11:20||   2006-06-20 11:20|| Front Page Top

#32 Tinker, Evers, Chance

No! No! These are the saddest of possible words!
Posted by Thinemp Whimble2412 2006-06-20 11:23||   2006-06-20 11:23|| Front Page Top

#33 Though if they look at our bulletin boards with event listings, they might learn something about how faith and peoplehood are interwoven for us, and how much Israel means to us.

That is so clueless. Maybe you might learn something.
Posted by 2b 2006-06-20 11:24||   2006-06-20 11:24|| Front Page Top

#34 Of course, liberalhawk, I agree on all counts, and adding the matriarchs is what the Reform Jewish liturgy does -- in both languages (which is why I added that comment about the lengthened service time). But Hebrew was no longer a spoken language by the time of Christ -- in that part of the world the language in use was Aramaic. For that matter, many of the Jews of the Diaspora (which by that time had spread as far as Spain and England, India and possibly even a small settlement in China, all along North Africa and up the Nile into Ethiopia) at that time had no Hebrew at all, and relied on the Greek Septuagint translation of the Bible, commissioned by one of the Ptolemys about a century previous -- no doubt one of the reasons that the last addition to the Jewish Bible is the book of Daniel, written just before the adventures of the Maccabees.
Posted by trailing wife 2006-06-20 11:39||   2006-06-20 11:39|| Front Page Top

#35 2b, I don't know about liberalhawk, but I have no idea what on earth you mean.
Posted by trailing wife 2006-06-20 11:42||   2006-06-20 11:42|| Front Page Top

#36 Liberalhawk, Is there a state of grace in Judaism ? That's what Jesus was trying to tell you about. I see from these comments there is almost no knowledge of the state of grace around.
Like I stated earlier, religions missed it. Today, they focus on tradition. The blind leading the blind.
Posted by wxjames 2006-06-20 11:48||   2006-06-20 11:48|| Front Page Top

#37 money, sex, power.

*whisper whisper*

Oh!
Posted by pihkalbadger 2006-06-20 13:05||   2006-06-20 13:05|| Front Page Top

#38 Hardrock, Coco and Joe.

At least that was shown during CHRISTmas.
Posted by anonymous2u 2006-06-20 13:52||   2006-06-20 13:52|| Front Page Top

#39 Oppressive Patriarchal Entity; Patriarchy Reinforcing Salvific Entity; Non-Gendered Insubstantial Entity.

The Holy Trinity. The Post-modern Version.
Posted by 11A5S 2006-06-20 15:48||   2006-06-20 15:48|| Front Page Top

#40 Actually, there is a large amount of context wrapped int he gender of God, especially in the term "Father" - Abba as it is rendered in Jesus' own words.

The image is of a protector - but its also the cheif of the tribe, and the holder of the covenant - that is the one who will pay the blood price for the covenant. The term Son - espcially first-born carries with it a large number of important contexts - inheritor, cherised, etc - and it still serves that way today - the eldest son seems to always be the one that responsibility fall on for family affairs once the father has passed on.

There are some deep linguistic and contextual roots of the words used, and by de-masculinzing them you rob the passages of their meaning - and of thier teaching and normative value. Its similar to the difference in impact of "Mankind" versus "People". Both have their place, and carry different tacit sets of meanings with them.

To do anything other than attempt normal narly literal translations is to attempt to edit God's words into something politically palatable by an age that is obviously fallen. And at that point you've left the rails and will put yourself into free fall, speaking as a Catholic.

The 2 cent version:

Gender carries a lot of very important meaning in Biblical verses and Christian theology, and should not be cavalierly discarded ignored or repressed.

Posted by Oldspook 2006-06-20 17:13||   2006-06-20 17:13|| Front Page Top

#41 John, Paul, George (and Ringo)
Posted by Grereger Thretch9628 2006-06-20 17:25||   2006-06-20 17:25|| Front Page Top

#42 TW - the idea that Liberalhawk hopes that Christians "might learn something about how faith and peoplehood are interwoven for us" shows such a complete and total lack of understanding what is taught in a Christian church to the point that his comment the "they might learn something" is almost comical.

The Christian Bible contains the Old Testament and Christians spend their Sundays learning how the Jewish faith and people are interwoven.
Posted by 2b 2006-06-20 17:47||   2006-06-20 17:47|| Front Page Top

#43 2b: I think Brother 'Hawk is referring to the tendency of the old-line "mainstream" (read: left-leaning) Protestant denominations to presume the worst about Israel (and, by extension, the Jewish faith) based on their political leanings. That's a very different world view from what prevails in my Catholic parish or in my wife's General Conference Baptist church or wherever you go on Sundays.
Posted by Mike 2006-06-20 18:30||   2006-06-20 18:30|| Front Page Top

#44 2b, I read liberalhawk's post as referring specifically to the members of the Presbyterian congregation that had temporarily taken up residence in his synagogue.

Good point, Oldspook.
Posted by trailing wife 2006-06-20 19:20||   2006-06-20 19:20|| Front Page Top

#45 nicky pat an lee.

that shuld do it. kayse setteld
Posted by muck4doo 2006-06-20 19:33|| http://www.evolvedamnyou.blogspot.com/]">[http://www.evolvedamnyou.blogspot.com/]  2006-06-20 19:33|| Front Page Top

#46 hmmm.... I'll grudgingly give him the benefit of the doubt.
Posted by 2b 2006-06-20 20:12||   2006-06-20 20:12|| Front Page Top

#47 I don't think this sort of thing will fly at National Presbyterian Church. They are a rather conservative congregation going back a couple hundred years.

(The ushers don't wear morning-coats, but that's about as "modern" as they went. *heh*)
Posted by eLarson 2006-06-20 20:21|| http://larsonian.blogspot.com]">[http://larsonian.blogspot.com]  2006-06-20 20:21|| Front Page Top

#48 "Double cheeseburger, onion rings, large orange drink" - Church of the Drivethru
Posted by Pappy 2006-06-20 21:37||   2006-06-20 21:37|| Front Page Top

#49 Hotwings,Football,and Sunday Man I wish football season would start. :)
Posted by djohn66 2006-06-20 21:41||   2006-06-20 21:41|| Front Page Top

#50 Liberalhawk,

If I remember correctly, you are in the DC area, right? My synagogue, Beth Emeth in Reston, VA, also has the two versions of the Amidah in its siddur.

The Rabbi explained the situation a few weeks ago; in the US Conservative movement, the agreement is that any controversy is discussed by the 24-person national board. Any point of view endorsed by at least 6 of them is considered a valid view for any member synagogue to take. That's why there are Conservative synagogues that count women in the minyan, and others that don't, and so on.

Of course Jewish jurisprudence does have a strong streak of arguments just for the sake of argument. As the old joke goes, “Where you have 2 Jews, you have 3 opinions. Where you have 20 Jews, you have 2 synagogues. And where you have 100 Jews you have 200 political parties.”

Seriously, the Talmud and the Responsa does remind one of a somewhat tipsy moot court at times.
Posted by Eric Jablow">Eric Jablow  2006-06-20 22:20||   2006-06-20 22:20|| Front Page Top

#51 Thats one thing I love about the local Archdiocese - the semianry there has an agreement with the local synagogues where priests in formation (and masters level divinity students from the local Catholic university) go to several services iththe local reformed synagogue (or conservative when we can find a Rabbi willing to have a gaggle of worshipful Christian outsiders sit in).

I've foudn it enjoyable to learn how well we mesh on a vast majority of things, with only the obvious being the dividing lines - and how we can agree to disagree (without the implied violence and implicit threats Muslims seem to have for anyone that disagrees with them theologiclaly, even other Muslims).
Posted by Oldspook 2006-06-20 22:30||   2006-06-20 22:30|| Front Page Top

#52 Of course Jewish jurisprudence does have a strong streak of arguments just for the sake of argument.

Ahhh, so thats where we Catholics inherited that argumentative streak from!
Posted by Oldspook 2006-06-20 22:31||   2006-06-20 22:31|| Front Page Top

#53 I'm surprised nobody mentioned: "sex, drugs, and rock-and-roll."

Or maybe: "rum, sodomy, and the lash" for those especially needing penance.
Posted by xbalanke 2006-06-20 22:33||   2006-06-20 22:33|| Front Page Top

#54 One thing we can all agree upon (music and lyrics by George Newall):


Three is a magic number,
Yes it is, it's a magic number.
Somewhere in the ancient, mystic trinity
You get three as a magic number.

The past and the present and the future.
Faith and Hope and Charity,
The heart and the brain and the body
Give you three as a magic number.

It takes three legs to make a tri-pod
Or to make a table stand.
It takes three wheels to make a ve-hicle
Called a tricycle.

Every triangle has three corners,
Every triangle has three sides,
No more, no less.
You don't have to guess.
When it's three you can see
It's a magic number.

A man and a woman had a little baby,
Yes, they did.
They had three in the family,
And that's a magic number.

3-6-9, 12-15-18, 21-24-27, 30.
3-6-9, 12-15-18, 21-24-27, 30.
Multiply backwards from three times ten:

Three time ten is (30), three times nine is (27),
Three times eight is (24), three times seven is (21),
Three times six is (18), three times five is (15),
Three times four is twelve,
And three times three is nine, and three times two is six,
And three times one is three of course.

Now take the pattern once more:
Three! . . .3-6-9
Twelve! . . .12-15-18
Twenty-one!. . .21-24-27. . .30

Now multiply from 10 backwards:
Three time ten is (30 - Keep going), three times nine is (27),
Three times eight is (24), three times seven is (21),
Three times six is (18), three times five is (15),
Three times four is twelve,
And three times three is nine, and three times two is six,
And three times one...
What is it?!
Three!
Yeah, That's a magic number.

A man and a woman had a little baby.
Yes, they did.
They had three in the family.
That's a magic number.


Posted by Eric Jablow">Eric Jablow  2006-06-20 22:46||   2006-06-20 22:46|| Front Page Top

08:52 pihkalbadger
00:00 newc
23:36 bigjim-ky
23:31 Seafarious
23:28 Kalle (kafir forever)
23:20 Anonymoose
23:13 Frank G
23:12 Frank G
23:06 ed
23:04 Oldspook
23:01 ed
22:57 RWV
22:47 Anonymoose
22:46 Eric Jablow
22:45 Zenster
22:44 Anonymoose
22:40 Zenster
22:39 Sock Puppet of Doom
22:34 Oldspook
22:34 Eric Jablow
22:33 xbalanke
22:33 2b
22:31 Oldspook
22:30 Oldspook









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