Article

2006-10-06 -Lurid Crime Tales-

'Shoot Me First,' Amish Girl Is Said to Ask

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Posted by Zenster 2006-10-06 02:44|| || Front Page|| [2 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 Her portrait goes in the encyclopedia entry on "Courage."

Posted by Mike 2006-10-06 06:50|| 2006-10-06 06:50|| Front Page Top

#2 "Try and tell me there is a God. I dare you."

Ok Zen, there 's a God.

The apparent contradiction of 'bad things happening to good people' is covered thorougly in the Bible. In fact, it's the primary theme of the oldest book in the Bible, that being Job.

Personally, I believe God has some special purpose or important work for Marian and Barbie Rhoads. They will no doubt be people of some great importance and power in eternity.

"For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us."

---Rom. 8:18

Posted by mcsegeek1 2006-10-06 09:01|| 2006-10-06 09:01|| Front Page Top

#3 Zen, when you get down to brass tacks, this proves there's a God. How else could two young girls want to sacrifice themselves for others? It is NOT in our human nature to do that. As yesterday's article on this massacre's headline read "The REAL religion of peace".

God's ways are higher than our ways and His thoughts higher than our thoughts. There is NO way for us (as lowly humans) to understand "why bad things happen to good people", except to say that God's work for these 5 girls here on Earth was complete and it was time for them to come home. Look at how, already, the nation has come to completely respect the Amish, not just wonder if they're backwards and against "progress and technology." We ALL fall short of God's glory, but only through Christ can we be reconciled to Him. These girls knew that, and awaited (or even looked forward to) a FAR GREATER paradise in Heaven. Compare this with the death-cult we know as Islam and you'll see STARK differences (doing good all the way up to and including the end vs. killing others for 72 raisins among the starkest of the differences). Do NOT let human "Christians" and their actions here on earth confuse you with Christ's TRUE teachings and how we're supposed to treat each other.

Posted by BA 2006-10-06 09:24|| 2006-10-06 09:24|| Front Page Top

#4 To play Devil's Ad - I hope this story about the courage of the Amish girls is true & not another "early Jessica Lynch report" - you guys remember - where, "she went down fighting taking ten of the enemy with her before being captured" we heard that b.s. the first two weeks, then, it turns out she didn't even fire a shot because her dumb ass never properly cleaned her M16 in order for it to operate.

If, the story of these girls is true then God Bless'em to no end. Much braver than I.

Zen, I know how ya feel bro' but there is a God. Now, I don't buy half the stuff that's in the bible, preaching verse & scrip to me is like truly throwing a pearl before a muddy swine. I'm either a deist or a way old school unitarian. I feel that the Almighty gave man logic, reason, & free will, to do as he/she chooses w/it. I think Jesus, and even some of the other "non-christian" holy men may have some sort of divine spark and gave us even more insight on a good ethical construct in which to govern our personal lives. Though I do not necessarilly believe in a messiah, holy prophets, or some sort of redeemer. I think God can, but chooses not to interfere w/free will. I'd not rule out that maybe he works through people or gives hints here and there but I do not think there are any bonified miracles. For me, that would go against the natural way of things. That is my only logic that allows for "bad things to happen to good people." However, don't take what I say as gospel (no pun intended). It took me years and years of soul searching and study to come to my own spirituality & view of the Almighty. I definitely don't claim to know the mind of God, and I'm always suspicious of those who do.

BTW - I remember reading "the brothers karamazov (sp?)" - this situation reminds me of it.

Posted by Broadhead6 2006-10-06 10:24|| 2006-10-06 10:24|| Front Page Top

#5 Everybody imagines God to be a human.
'I don't know the mind of God'
If God is a force, then does 'He' have a mind ?
Jesus taught the Holy Trinity, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Jesus is the Son. Or one of many Sons.
I assume every human has a Holy Spirit or aura. There is one source, the Father, and certain beings who can connect the two, Sons.
I think also that plants and animals have their own auras and can be connected to the Father by specific Sons, peculiar to species.
Finally, God doesn't make things happen, we do.
Our NEED to remain good and without sin is that the deterioration of the aura caused by sinning separates the individual from the force, and from a chance to return to the Father, or going to Heaven.

Posted by wxjames 2006-10-06 10:57|| 2006-10-06 10:57|| Front Page Top

#6 This behavior by the Amish girl is completely consistent with what we know to be true about the behavior of the overall Amish community to this atrocity. I find it all leads me to GREATER belief in God rather than less. Without God, how could they keep from exploding in violent rage? They're not even my family or community and I feel rage. Plus, if you believe Islam is Satanic, this Amish behavior is pretty much the polar opposite of Islam, so they might have the God picture about right.

Posted by Glenmore">Glenmore 2006-10-06 10:59|| 2006-10-06 10:59|| Front Page Top

#7 If there is a God he is a cold hearted S.O.B. Why would any "Supreme Being" need to sit back and allow shit like this to happen. Was he whacking off to the scene as Charlie Roberts worked his way through not one but 10 little girls with a determined blood lust? Where was your god then? Where was your god at Midway, Chosen Reservoir, Ypres, or for that matter on Sept. 11, 2001 in Manhattan? The existence of a supreme being is a great fairy tale, hell, I'd like to believe in it myself, but not a single person has ever shown me a shred of proof. The only proof I have ever seen my whole life is that there can't be a god, and if there is he is a real dick.

Posted by Uneang Creagum5349 2006-10-06 11:48|| 2006-10-06 11:48|| Front Page Top

#8 Your anger at God, Mr. Troll, is duly noted.

Posted by mcsegeek1 2006-10-06 11:56|| 2006-10-06 11:56|| Front Page Top

#9 This proves to me there is a God. He takes the good ones, becuase he wants their company. That's why people like these girls and Steve Irwin get taken away prematurely, and farks like Fred Phelps keep on living to be older than dirt.

Posted by Thoth 2006-10-06 11:57|| 2006-10-06 11:57|| Front Page Top

#10 UC5439, I'm sure the Amish would forgive you.
You know right from wrong, and it sounds like you wish there was a God. Good luck in your search.

Posted by wxjames 2006-10-06 11:59|| 2006-10-06 11:59|| Front Page Top

#11 It doesn't take a troll to point out a few obvious inconsistencies with the concept of "the all powerful and merciful deity". Other posters proclaim their belief in "it", I simply say, why would an all powerful merciful god let dispicable shit like that happen? Isn't that a fair question?

Posted by Uneang Creagum5349 2006-10-06 12:01|| 2006-10-06 12:01|| Front Page Top

#12 Is there a God? Is there a meaning to life? We'll all eventually find out, if only by default if there's nothing past our death.

In the meantime, I still believe there a positive response to both questions, but that's just my belief; me too I'm basically a deist from a catholic background (Christianity is dead, here, french church attendance has gone from 60-66% once a week in the early 60's, to 5% once a month now), and I think a belief in a loving deity and a meaning to life is a very positive force.

Posted by anonymous5089 2006-10-06 12:05|| 2006-10-06 12:05|| Front Page Top

#13 I think it can and has been a powerful force for good anonymous5089 , but it is also the very same force that is employed by the Islamofacists to justiy their ruthless proliferation of Islam by the sword.

Posted by Justip Olmera5546 2006-10-06 12:08|| 2006-10-06 12:08|| Front Page Top

#14 I simply say, why would an all powerful merciful god let dispicable shit like that happen? Isn't that a fair question?

That's an age-old question, nothing new here, "why do bad things happen to good people, and good thing to bad people?". AFAIK, there's no determinism in Christianity, you do your own choices, whatever they might be, and it affects the others like it turns out. We're not puppets, we're free to do good and evil (at least in the limits allowed by our genetical hard wiring, hé hé hé).

Posted by anonymous5089 2006-10-06 12:10|| 2006-10-06 12:10|| Front Page Top

#15 Yes, it is a fair question, but you seem to ignore the plausible answers. My apologies for the troll reference, but I automatically hold suspect those who post without a nick.

There's a base assumption to this question, and that is that God is the only spiritual force in the universe. He is not. Just as he is good, there are vast spiritual forces bent on evil. The fact that he doesn't control our choices should be a praise, not a criticism.

Again, the troll reference was unnecessarily inflammatory, and I do hope you not only seek the answer to your question, but also that you do not automatically discount the answers you don't like.

Posted by mcsegeek1 2006-10-06 12:12|| 2006-10-06 12:12|| Front Page Top

#16 Where was your god at Midway, . . .

He was co-piloting Wade McCluskey's SBD, leading the single most devastating aerial attack in naval history, five minutes that stopped an evil empire's march of conquest in its tracks.

. . . on Sept. 11, 2001 in Manhattan . . .

He was wearing a red bandanna and a firefighter's bunker gear or a business suit, and was also sighted in the person of Rick Rescorla.

Posted by Mike 2006-10-06 12:13|| 2006-10-06 12:13|| Front Page Top

#17 I think it can and has been a powerful force for good anonymous5089 , but it is also the very same force that is employed by the Islamofacists to justiy their ruthless proliferation of Islam by the sword.

One guy I liked on the french web (a France-Echos editor, by the way) was a traditionalist catholic (the whole package, ex-para, recreational shootist, quite rare in France, self-defense advocate, etc, etc...) with some very interesting theories; one was the Lovelock Gaia theory; in this religions and civilizations are actually "living" entities; some are begnign, others are predatory and/or parasitical.
Islam is not a worship of a loving, all-encompassing deity, but of a mercurial, capricious dictator-in-the-sky (a 7th bedouin warlord, really) in the image of the religion's creator, who needs total and blind obedience (think of the Faithfuls bowing in front of him 5 times a day).

So, religions as powerful civilizational (or even personal) driving forces can be positive or destructive, but organized religion is not to blame per se; in fact, it seems to be the "default" condition of Humanity (human group = worship in one form or an another).

Posted by anonymous5089 2006-10-06 12:19|| 2006-10-06 12:19|| Front Page Top

#18 Very fair question 5349. I'm sorry I don't have any better answers. I definitley don't think God sits back and wax ecstatic over human suffering. Quite the contrary. I think humans are simply born into a fluid and dynamic environment on nature's whim w/the ability to choose to good or bad and will in some way be held to account for their actions or lack there of.

Posted by Broadhead6 2006-10-06 12:28|| 2006-10-06 12:28|| Front Page Top

#19 Where was God on 9/11?

Easy, only about 2800 people died.

That should have been much, much worse.

Posted by anonymous2u 2006-10-06 12:43|| 2006-10-06 12:43|| Front Page Top

#20 Good answers, Mike (#16).

Assuming that God gets into the day-to-day decisions about who dies when, these girls were a tremendous testament to faith in God. They've touched millions of people, which might - in the eye of a Supreme Being - justify the fear and pain they felt for a few minutes. Their suffering is over; ours continues.

And it ought to tell the wackos something about the faith and courage of certain 13-year-old girls in this society. Lord, they were brave!

Posted by Bobby 2006-10-06 12:47|| 2006-10-06 12:47|| Front Page Top

#21 Basically UC5349: I won't refer to you as a troll either. Just one who is searching (as is all of us here). There are many here who are NOT Christian or even deists (many agnostics and/or atheists). But, I share "fellowship" with them (as a Christian, myself) here at RB, because we ALL recognize the evil disguised as a religion in Islam. Again, I try not to look at those who practice a said religion, but what that religion's "holy man/men" say and do, and what that religion's "holy book" teaches. Islam teaches spreading of the faith by the sword, no matter how few "Islamists" actually go through with implementing that vision. Christ taught love, faith, forgiveness, but also turning from "sin." Yes, in many ways, our feeble human brains can't fully fathom God (His ways truly are higher than ours), but also, He created us to fellowship with Him and to further His kingdom here on Earth. He wanted us to come to Him of our own accord and not just have "robots" who don't think things through in "worshipping" Him.

And, like others have said before me, God was everywhere in the events you mentioned. Otherwise, we'd all be speaking German and killing Jooooos right now. He was everywhere on 9/11....in the firefighters who rushed up the stairs, in the police who responded, in those individuals who rescued numerous others before perishing themselves, even in the Americans who took down flight 93. But, he was elsewhere on that day, too, comforting some who jumped from the 105th floor, or causing others to not even show up that day or be delayed by just enough time to miss the tragedy (like the several people we heard about who were late because of traffic, their kids were late to school, etc.).

I go back to my original point...this all (to me, at least) proves there is a God. How else do you explain the restraint the Amish are showing, or the individual heroism these girls showed. I know of no other 13 year old that would say "Shoot me first."

Posted by BA 2006-10-06 13:18|| 2006-10-06 13:18|| Front Page Top

#22 While I certainly cannot apologize for my words, I will say that I had not intended to start a theology thread with today's comments. I do appreciate everyone's contributions. Incidents like this are not able to force me away from my agnostic position and into atheism, no matter how tempting or convenient it might be at times.

The scientist and rationalist in me refuses to accept, without proof, any notion of the supernatural. This in no way precludes my appreciation for the almost miraculous nature of our universe's existence. Most especially that all of our best emperical estimates point towards this 20 billion light year across universe springing from a particle the size of a proton. Fiat lux, indeed.

I know that many of you would argue that God's existence is proven, not just by our own astounding consciousness and the human body's fabulous complexity, but by the almost incredible fecundity and immense beauty of the natural world that surrounds us. My personal respect for evolution interferes with reaching that faith-based conclusion. My sense of free will most definitely prohibits any belief in predestination. Even Charles Darwin, a deeply religious man, felt that God could not preordain the destination of every single raindrop. Therefore, it is difficult for me to envision the hand of God in any of these events. It is far more tempting to think that God is on vaction when atrocities like 9-11 or Beslan happen. Neither explanation is satisfactory for me.

If, the story of these girls is true then God Bless'em to no end. Much braver than I.

Zen, I know how ya feel bro' but there is a God. Now, I don't buy half the stuff that's in the bible, preaching verse & scrip to me is like truly throwing a pearl before a muddy swine. I'm either a deist or a way old school unitarian. I feel that the Almighty gave man logic, reason, & free will, to do as he/she chooses w/it. I think Jesus, and even some of the other "non-christian" holy men may have some sort of divine spark and gave us even more insight on a good ethical construct in which to govern our personal lives. Though I do not necessarilly believe in a messiah, holy prophets, or some sort of redeemer. I think God can, but chooses not to interfere w/free will. I'd not rule out that maybe he works through people or gives hints here and there but I do not think there are any bonified miracles. For me, that would go against the natural way of things. That is my only logic that allows for "bad things to happen to good people." However, don't take what I say as gospel (no pun intended). It took me years and years of soul searching and study to come to my own spirituality & view of the Almighty. I definitely don't claim to know the mind of God, and I'm always suspicious of those who do.

Thank you, Broadhead6. Out of all the posts today, your most closes paralells my own feelings on this topic. I appreciate everyone's contributions in this thread. Some, like Mike's, are inspiring to consider. I just wish there was some way that murderous cretins like Roberts could simply make themselves their first and last victim and save us the grief and all the ensuing emotional and legal trials.

Posted by Zenster">Zenster 2006-10-06 13:50|| 2006-10-06 13:50|| Front Page Top

#23 This one isn't about God -- absent, present, existent or non-, none of the options foreclose how we ought to behave toward one another, or how we ought not behave. Some good people need to keep their view to the material world of the here and now, others need to lift their eyes to Heaven as best they can understand it. It takes strength to go about life without the protective hand of God; so, too, does it take strength to try to live each moment rightly under God's watchful gaze... And those who make those choices truly have my admiration.

But to blame God for the evil that men choose to do, whether it is murder brave and innocent Amish children, or those imprisoned in a Nazi concentration camp for the purpose, or those of a different skin colour in Sudan, is to unfairly shift responsibility off the shoulders of those who freely choose to do evil instead of good. Whether through God's creation or the luck of evolution (or God choosing to use the method of evolution to create us -- I don't rule that out) we have the ability at each juncture to choose to do good or evil. Contrary to the rantings of that stupid Phelps woman, it is each of us who makes that choice, not God using us as a tool to accomplish cruel and evil ends. A God who intervenes to prevent or remedy is taking away that freedom to choose, because without the ability to choose to do evil, we cannot freely choose to do good. And then all our actions, our choices, our decisions, are merely the acts of puppets, not people.

I say this as a Jew who lost a significant portion of my family at the hands of the Nazis and those who chose to help execute their schemes.

Zenster, you will come to whatever conclusions make sense to you from the accumulation of events, and that should not change the essentials. As BA so elequently said, we share fellowship here and elsewhere -- not with those who merely claim the same label of faith, but with those who try to do good and fight the great evil of our time that is Jihadi Islam.

Posted by trailing wife 2006-10-06 14:02|| 2006-10-06 14:02|| Front Page Top

#24 But to blame God for the evil that men choose to do, whether it is murder brave and innocent Amish children, or those imprisoned in a Nazi concentration camp for the purpose, or those of a different skin colour in Sudan, is to unfairly shift responsibility off the shoulders of those who freely choose to do evil instead of good.

Exactly. As I said before, the fact that God doesn't control our choices should be a praise, not a criticism.

Posted by mcsegeek1 2006-10-06 14:09|| 2006-10-06 14:09|| Front Page Top

#25 The pastor at my (Baptist) wife's church often talks about "God sightings," little examples of divine intervention from daily life. I once used the concept as an organizing theme of a half-hour's preaching at a Catholic men's renewal weekend.

Marian Fisher is a prime example of a God sighting. So were Wells Crowther and Rick Rescorla and the FDNY and the "93rd Volunteer Infantry," as I like to call 'em.

In their own, more modest way, so are the postings above from mcsgeek and BA and Broadhead and Glenmore and Bobby and trailing wife (and wxjames, though his theology's rather different from the rest).

Zen, see what you started? God's looking out for you; He just 'jacked a whole Rantburg discussion thread just to get your attention!

I shall put in a word for you on Sunday as well.

Posted by Mike 2006-10-06 14:41|| 2006-10-06 14:41|| Front Page Top

#26 I have very little to add to the discussion here but Broadhead6 noted:

"I'd not rule out that maybe he works through people or gives hints here and there but I do not think there are any bonified miracles".

ABC reported "At the behest of Amish leaders, a fund has also been set up for the killer's widow and three children".

Webster's definition "an extraordinary event manifesting divine intervention in human affairs"

What is Miracle for $1000 Alex?

Posted by GORT 2006-10-06 14:59|| 2006-10-06 14:59|| Front Page Top

#27 Folks here can talk whatever, but that sorry pos that killed those girls best hope there isn't a God. Fuuny how how little girls can be more of a man than many men.

The Amish may be on to something. Those girls are in a better place now, sitting on the knee and being comforted by the the Father of Creation.

"And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea."

Somehow I suspect this is the understatement of the millenia.

Posted by Evil Elvis 2006-10-06 15:10|| 2006-10-06 15:10|| Front Page Top

#28 This one isn't about God -- absent, present, existent or non-, none of the options foreclose how we ought to behave toward one another, or how we ought not behave. Some good people need to keep their view to the material world of the here and now, others need to lift their eyes to Heaven as best they can understand it. It takes strength to go about life without the protective hand of God; so, too, does it take strength to try to live each moment rightly under God's watchful gaze...

An incredibly well-written post, trailing wife, all of it. Thank you.

And thank you too, Mike.

Posted by Zenster">Zenster 2006-10-06 15:13|| 2006-10-06 15:13|| Front Page Top

#29 GORT, Ever regret leaving?

Posted by Nimble Spemble 2006-10-06 15:16|| 2006-10-06 15:16|| Front Page Top

#30 Why would any "Supreme Being" need to sit back and allow shit like this to happen.

The answer to this question can actually be found in the book of Genesis, if you read between the lines, so to speak. This is how I see it: God created man and woman in his own image, except without the capacity to understand the world completely. In other words, he hid certain things from them. Now, this would be an incredibly boring existence. Man and woman would be like robots, really. So God decided to open up his entire "knowledge base" to them. Unfortunately, this knowledge includes the concept of evil. So what to do? Well, God decided to introduce a filter by which He would separate the good folks from the bad, since people who tend to do nothing but evil are generally a pain to have around. This filter is, of course, His apparent absence* from our lives: He gave us free choice to do both good and evil. The problem is, without some slight intervention on His part, we'd all kill ourselves in no time. So He sent us some help in the form of Jesus, the prophets, and perhaps some other folks.

Now, notice what happens in the end: Good wins over evil so that no evil can be done, but the good guys still retain access to the entire knowledge base (or at least partial access), so that for instance, nuclear technology (something that can be used for both good and evil) is used for energy purposes, but doesn't have to be used for nuclear weapons anymore. Clear as mud?

*absence is crucial, for if God decided to reveal himself to us outright, then we would not really have any shot at redemption. If God reveals Himself to you, and you still decide on being evil, well then you're screwed royally.

but not a single person has ever shown me a shred of proof

Anyone interested in some (hopefully original) insight on the question of proof of God's existence can shoot me an email.

Posted by Rafael">Rafael 2006-10-06 15:21|| 2006-10-06 15:21|| Front Page Top

#31 #27 Elvis

Amen.

Posted by Dreamsmith 2006-10-06 15:23|| 2006-10-06 15:23|| Front Page Top

#32 tw:

my sentiments exactly. thank you.

We have the freedom - and presumably the wisdom - to choose our own actions.

But, in order to choose wisely we must therefore appreciate the value of learning, questioning and debate (as evidenced right here in this thread, for example) because they provide us with the knowledge and perspective with which we can make good choices of action for ourselves and our society.

In the Jewish tradition, for example, the Talmud is a record of debates in an attempt to find meaning and relevance from the Torah to apply it to the world in which we live. The tradition carries on in Jewish culture. That's how you can have 5 Jews in a room with 8 opinions.

Contrast that with societies (or, er, religions) that do not allow questioning or debate. Dogmatic. Rigid. Extreme. Unable to adapt to the world as it is. And if your religion is unable to adapt, your only option is to force the world to do so.

So please, Rantburgers. Argue (no name calling, though). Debate. Understand others' points of view. In other words, demonstrate exactly what Rantburg professes to be about: "Well Reasoned Discourse"

Posted by PlanetDan 2006-10-06 15:38|| 2006-10-06 15:38|| Front Page Top

#33 You put that exactly right TW.

The fact that people can choose to to evil, as well as good, is a feature, not a bug. Its called 'Free Will' and it enables us to be extramly beautiful beings (such as Marian Fisher in this article) or extreamly ugly (Hitler, Mohammed, Pol-Pot, etc... the list is entirely too long...).

In the end it is what makes us 'in the image of God' - otherwise we would be no better then this chair, or a car, or a rock or a tree. Or at best a dog or a cow or a pig.

Posted by CrazyFool 2006-10-06 15:50|| 2006-10-06 15:50|| Front Page Top

#34 I simply say, why would an all powerful merciful god let dispicable shit like that happen? Isn't that a fair question?

What if you have no perspective. What if all of the torments on Earth are nothing, absolutely insignificant by comparison to the torments in the afterlife. They are a trifle in time as well as in actual anguish. What if the same is true of the good times.

Then all the pain and injustice you see as proof of no God just becomes a pop quiz to see who is worthy. God is a bouncer trying to sort out the assholes and a few rough questions are hardly so bad to get into the ultimate cool club.

Posted by rjschwarz">rjschwarz 2006-10-06 16:11|| rjschwarz.com]">[rjschwarz.com] 2006-10-06 16:11|| Front Page Top

#35 I guess if you want, you could look at that as a miracle Gort. I just figured it was a compassionate choice based on the free will of the Amish leadership. :)

Posted by Broadhead6 2006-10-06 17:03|| 2006-10-06 17:03|| Front Page Top

#36 What use have I for a God that wants me to fight his wars, feed and care for his people, and clean up his messes?

Posted by Redneck Jim 2006-10-06 17:46|| 2006-10-06 17:46|| Front Page Top

#37 Now Redneck Jim, I thought we already covered that. Don't make me come over there!....;-)

Posted by mcsegeek1 2006-10-06 18:00|| 2006-10-06 18:00|| Front Page Top

#38 #16 Mike--VERY well said. TW, brilliant as usual. Thanks to both of you.

Posted by mac 2006-10-06 18:07|| 2006-10-06 18:07|| Front Page Top

#39 Personally, I know God is there. I've lost 2 siblings, both young at the time, with small kids. They died within a year of one another. Afterwards, my eyes lifted up, as TW so artfully put it. I know my brother and step-sis are with Him. I know that they watch over the rest of our family. I've not focused on this tragedy as it is just too horrible, one more in a long list. But it does not deter my faith. Without it, despite my paucity of religous teaching, I would be lost. This doesn't tell Zenster or anyone else anything about proof. It does not postulate anything. But I believe what I believe. They are there and they are waiting. I will live my life as positively as I can so that I can see them, and the rest of my family again, and to be with God in his House.

Posted by remoteman 2006-10-06 19:38|| 2006-10-06 19:38|| Front Page Top

#40 After reading through this excellent thread, it is my humble observation that, next to life, the greatest gift God ever gave us was free will itself.

He not only gave us a choice. He gave us the power to choose.

Posted by eltoroverde 2006-10-06 20:04|| 2006-10-06 20:04|| Front Page Top

#41 remoteman, please accept my condolences upon the loss of those who were so close to you.

Posted by Zenster">Zenster 2006-10-06 20:04|| 2006-10-06 20:04|| Front Page Top

#42 I work for God; So I am really getting a kick out of most of these replies. Some of you guys are very good at making it sound like you know what you are talking about. But trust me.... You don't. I think you just want to make yourself sound smart, when in reality you don't know what you are talking about. This is how bad info gets passed around. If you dont know about the topic....Dont make yourself sound like you do. Cos some Rantburgers believe anything they hear.

Posted by Thoth 2006-10-06 20:45|| 2006-10-06 20:45|| Front Page Top

#43 Woohoo!

Posted by .com 2006-10-06 20:49|| 2006-10-06 20:49|| Front Page Top

#44 Thoth, I'll see your nickle and raise you a dime.

Posted by wxjames 2006-10-06 21:23|| 2006-10-06 21:23|| Front Page Top

#45 Don't be makin' fun of Thoth. He's an ancient Egyptian diety. You don't even have hieroglyphics for your names, you religious nobodys.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Djehuty

Posted by Darrell 2006-10-06 21:28|| 2006-10-06 21:28|| Front Page Top

#46 Jeepers, Darrell! Where you be findin' stuff like dat?

Posted by Bobby 2006-10-06 22:14|| 2006-10-06 22:14|| Front Page Top

#47 If there is a God he is a cold hearted S.O.B.

He can be, yes, when there is a lesson He wants to teach or a point He wants to make or bring home to His people.

Remember, He forced the Hebrews to wander in the desert for 40 years after delivering them from slavery. That drove home a point.

Remember, He (in the incarnation of His Son) drove the moneylenders from the temple to drive home a point.

Remember, on a bet with Satan He allowed (not caused - there's a big difference) a number of unpleasant things to happen to Job - to drive home a point.

Why would any "Supreme Being" need to sit back and allow shit like this to happen.

See above - you need to read your Bible a bit more and stop reading Hustler.

as Charlie Roberts worked his way through not one but 10 little girls with a determined blood lust? Where was your god then?

He was there. He was there in the hearts of those children. He was there in the thoughts of their parents and millions of other Americans across this country as they watched this drama unfold. He was there in our prayers for them and their families. He was there in mercy as the quick deaths they were granted. He was there as the sparrows that winged their way across the fields or the crows that may have perched near the windows and watched as things unfolded. He was there in the sun and the light that danced across the fields and shone through the schools' windows that morning. He was there in countless different ways that we cannot even imagine.

He was there.

Where were you?

Where was your god at Midway, Chosen Reservoir, Ypres, or for that matter on Sept. 11, 2001 in Manhattan?

He was at all these places and more. He was there at Midway as others have explained, but He was there in countless other ways as well.

God is always there if you look for Him.

He looks for you as well.

The existence of a supreme being is a great fairy tale,

Do tell. Better men than you continue to acknowledge His presence in countless ways.

hell,

Is where you're headed right now.

I'd like to believe in it myself,

Then do so. It's easy. All you have to do is believe.

but not a single person has ever shown me a shred of proof. The only proof I have ever seen my whole life is that there can't be a god, and if there is he is a real dick.

God does not provide proof because He asks for faith not blind allegiance to solid proof. There is a huge difference between faith in something you cannot see and absolute certainty in something you can see, hold, touch, taste, feel, etc., etc.

God does not ask for much. He asks only for faith. He does not even ask for blind obediance to His laws. His Son already paid the price for our continual breaking of His laws.

You remind me of a lot of people I have met who are seeking something, almost anything to believe in.

God asks only that you have faith.

Is that so much to ask?

Think about it.

Posted by FOTSGreg">FOTSGreg 2006-10-06 22:21|| www.fire-on-the-suns.com]">[www.fire-on-the-suns.com] 2006-10-06 22:21|| Front Page Top

#48 You know what's great about this thread? It's that people can say mean-spirited things like Uneang Creagum5349 did in #7 and most of us just think, Pshaw, too bad for you. No rioting, no fatwas, and we don't really even care much, except maybe some of the Christian rantburgers might pray that he can join in the light.

Posted by anon 2006-10-06 22:29|| 2006-10-06 22:29|| Front Page Top

#49 He asks for faith not blind allegiance to solid proof.

Solid proof does not demand blind allegiance. Just like science, it provides you with information you can choose to make use of or ignore. Faith, in its blind variety, more closely approximates blind allegiance than pursuit of emperical knowledge ever will. Permit me to bring your attention to the many scientists whole find room in their sphere of perception for both science and religion. And please do not, for an instant, try to tell me that science is some sort of religion. No religion on earth is willing to discard long held tenets immediately upon their factual disproval, like science does at every new turn of discovery.

Posted by Zenster">Zenster 2006-10-06 22:54|| 2006-10-06 22:54|| Front Page Top

#50 If there were proof God existed faith would not be needed everyone would convert, and the whole point of free will and choosing to do the right thing would disappear.

Posted by rjschwarz">rjschwarz 2006-10-06 23:06|| rjschwarz.com]">[rjschwarz.com] 2006-10-06 23:06|| Front Page Top

#51 Zenster, I'm just curious? What came before the big bang?? How does a vacuum get a spark going anyway??

Now don't go getting mad, I'm just making the point that science also requires faith, though it is generally more willing to discard beliefs when a new theory comes along with more merit.

But infinity and what existed before time began are concepts that we humans do not have the capacity to understand. God requires no less faith than science does.

Posted by anon 2006-10-06 23:06|| 2006-10-06 23:06|| Front Page Top

#52 Permit me to bring your attention to the many scientists who find room in their sphere of perception for both science and religion.

And where did I say anything that would deny them this privilege? I believe in science and the pursuit of knowledge. I envision myself to be a scientist, of sorts.

There is nothing in faith that prevents science. In fact, I believe that faith encourages science.

And please do not, for an instant, try to tell me that science is some sort of religion.

Where did I even imply that Zenster?

Is your apparent hatred of God, or even the concept of God, and religion so strong that you cannot even acknowledge that scientists can have religion too - that I can believe in evolution and still believe in God at the same time?

God is mightier than we imagine. He is mightier than we can imagine IMO. I used to tutor students who were devout "Christians" and we would always, constantly, and consistently become embroiled in the argument about evolution versus creationism.

My answer to them was always - "Why are you trying to limit God? He said that the the very rocks would cry out His handiwork - and they do!"

I know He's also a lot smarter than we are - and He does have a sense of humor, sometimes what we would perceive as a very strange one.

Posted by FOTSGreg">FOTSGreg 2006-10-06 23:55|| www.fire-on-the-suns.com]">[www.fire-on-the-suns.com] 2006-10-06 23:55|| Front Page Top

19:34 Muhammad Abu-Africa
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23:54 Angie Schultz
23:52 Zenster
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23:32 trailing wife
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