Article

2007-04-11 Terror Networks

Is it Legitimate to Use Nuclear Weapons Against the West? A Debate on An Islamist Forum

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Posted by anonymous5089 2007-04-11 13:57|| || Front Page|| [5 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 Only if you like green glass.

Posted by mojo">mojo 2007-04-11 15:15|| 2007-04-11 15:15|| Front Page Top

#2 "If God Wishes to Wipe America Off the Face of the Earth... The Matter Is In His Hands"

Be aware my Islamic friends. God gave us bigger and better toys. And the above statement cuts both ways...

Posted by tu3031 2007-04-11 15:30|| 2007-04-11 15:30|| Front Page Top

#3 mojo - don't bet on a western nuclear retaliation strike. First, there would be denials as to who actually set off the nuke. Then there would be demands for 'proof' to the UN. Then there would be pleas from all quarters to exercise restraint and avoid escalation and further inhumane casualties. There would be concessions to the Mullahs by all parties. There would be a period of adjustment - maybe a decade - and then the cycle would repeat.

Posted by Glenmore">Glenmore 2007-04-11 15:31|| 2007-04-11 15:31|| Front Page Top

#4 From a practical point of view, he adds, "using WMDs against America and its allies will provoke them... to aim a painful blow at Muslims, and this time not with conventional weapons but with WMDs."

Which represents the single most important reason for avoiding first-use of nuclear weapons in the MME (Muslim Middle East). However ineffectual nuclear deterrence might seem, we owe it to ourselves to hold such retaliation in abeyance, so that it can be employed as a measured response to renewed terrorist atrocities.

"If bin Laden and his associates wish to respond [to the U.S. attacks] in kind, they should go out and [confront] the evil troops on the battlefield. However, they are not permitted to target unarmed civilians.... men, women, children and elderly people. This is... not permitted by Islamic law."

Yet continues on with revolting regularity and in far greater measure than Coalition troops are responsible for. Until Muslims refrain from killing each other with such abandon, they have no right to accuse the West of misdeeds.

"The essence of the article.... is that the U.S. bears no responsibility for the killing of Muslim children... And [even in cases] where it is proven that the U.S has killed Muslim women, children and elderly, [the article stipulates that it is permissible] to take revenge only on the one [directly] responsible for the killing... This is a distortion. [The article] laughs in Muslims' faces... It essentially [misrepresents] some of the [texts] it quotes from the Koran and the sunna..."

In light of how frequently the Koran exhorts its followers to commit violence against the Infidel, Im inclined to agree with this commentator. Especially with the, laughs in Muslim faces part. These screwballs just arent happy if blood isnt flowing in the gutters somewhere.

But in reality, this distinction is false!!!... The amount of destruction... and the number of deaths to Muslim civilians - women, children, and the elderly - caused by the... conventional weapons used by the U.S. throughout its years-long Crusader war against Islam is equivalent to the [extent of death and destruction] caused by WMDs!!... The destructive power of the one-ton bombs dropped on Afghanistan alone is greater than that of the atomic bomb dropped on Hiroshima... The ignorant writer should consider this fact!!!" [submitted by a commenter]

Go ahead, test your damned theory. See just how desirable it is to have your landscape irradiated for 1,000 years. Keep pushing and youll get a chance to find out.

"It is clear that the elected American government..., the military and civil organizations associated with it, and [the American] nation [as a whole] legally constitute 'a single individual' [submitted by a commenter]

It is precisely this sort of Islamic thinking that must drive American adoption of collective punishment. Far too many jihadists make no discrimination between combatants and civilians. We must eventually drop any attempt to do so ourselves. The ummah must begin taking body blows that convince it of just how foolhardy war against the West really is.

Posted by Zenster">Zenster 2007-04-11 15:54|| 2007-04-11 15:54|| Front Page Top

#5 don't bet on a western nuclear retaliation strike. First, there would be denials as to who actually set off the nuke.

Don't bet against nuclear retaliation either. The vast majority of countries with nuclear technology participate in the IAEA (International Atomic Energy Agency). Part of this membership includes submitting samples of isotopes from purification facilities and reactor cores. Using mass spectroscopy, we can usually identify radioavctive material right down to the individual reactor it came from. Each atomic facility has a unique "fingerprint" or isotopic signature that permits this.

After a given strike, analysis of fallout would either identify a specific location of origin or indicate that its refinement occured in one of a very small handfull of non-cooperating rogue regimes. Should analysis prove inconclusive, it would point to the participation of a rogue regime. Under such circumstances, it would be no great moralistic leap to simply apply nuclear retaliation against those rogue nations (i.e., North Korea, Iran and, maybe, Pakistan).

A far more sticky wicket is what happens if the fallout signature indicates a terrorist bomb is of Russian origin. That is when all Hell breaks loose and one can only hope that Putin is vividly aware of the consequences for such treachery.

Posted by Zenster">Zenster 2007-04-11 16:06|| 2007-04-11 16:06|| Front Page Top

#6 Glenmore, in the days or even hours following a nuclear strike on the US whatever remained of the administration would undertake immediate retaliation or face political doom. The people would demand it, consequences be damned. I am sure that the media would do as you are saying, but to their great surprise, they do not run the country.
A nuclear strike with tens or hundreds of thousands of American dead has a way of clarifying things. Pangs of guilt are not going to be high on the list.

Posted by remoteman 2007-04-11 16:09|| 2007-04-11 16:09|| Front Page Top

#7 don't bet on a western nuclear retaliation strike. First, there would be denials as to who actually set off the nuke. Then there would be demands for 'proof' to the UN. Then there would be pleas from all quarters to exercise restraint and avoid escalation and further inhumane casualties. There would be concessions to the Mullahs by all parties. There would be a period of adjustment - maybe a decade - and then the cycle would repeat.

Don't kid yourself. The only thing you would hear is the sound of

Two Keys Turning

Posted by Shipman">Shipman 2007-04-11 16:30|| 2007-04-11 16:30|| Front Page Top

#8 Zenster, how quickly could the isotope analysis be done following the explosion?

I suspect that if the nuke came from a missile, the flight path would have been recorded by our satellites or something, and the launchpoint pinpointed. If the bomb were smuggled in, there are only a few countries/organizations that would even attempt such a thing, and they are all interconnected, which by jihadi logic as quoted in the article means all of them share the guilt. And, only two groups have openly threatened such behaviour: Al Qaeda, which was founded by Pakistan's ISI, and Iran's ruling mullahs. Easy peasy: retaliate against Pakistan's nuclear facilities, the tribal areas along Afghanistan's border, and Iran. The other rogues can be gotten in the second round.

Posted by trailing wife 2007-04-11 16:44|| 2007-04-11 16:44|| Front Page Top

#9 Glenmore -

All good points, but I guarantee you if somebody pops off a nuke in the US, somebody somewhere is gonna fry. Possibly more than one. You do NOT get away with that shit, period.

Letting these morons think anything else is just "destabilizing", as they useta say.

Posted by mojo">mojo 2007-04-11 16:53|| 2007-04-11 16:53|| Front Page Top

#10 Analysis should only require several hours. Confirmation runs would be needed to assure consisten results, so it might stretch to an entire day.

As you yourself observe, tw, incoming ballistic tracks would make immediate retaliation a dead cert. Covert attack would instantly indict Iran and Pakistan or North Korea. Regardless, in such an event all three should be glassed and Windexed out of sheer principal. If only as encourager pour les autres.

Posted by Zenster">Zenster 2007-04-11 16:54|| 2007-04-11 16:54|| Front Page Top

#11 TW, I think it would take longer to collect the samples and get them to a high-ress mass spec facility than it would to do the analysis once there.

Posted by exJAG 2007-04-11 16:56|| 2007-04-11 16:56|| Front Page Top

#12 As clarification: I agree with remoteman, any political party that did not immediately retaliate against a nuclear attack on American soil would instantly become irrelevant. The lamp posts would beckon irresistibly.

Posted by Zenster">Zenster 2007-04-11 16:58|| 2007-04-11 16:58|| Front Page Top

#13 And as far as I'm concerned, "immediately retaliate" means within minutes-- not hours or days or weeks. Pakistan, Iran, the NorKs, and the Sauds. If we get nuked, fry 'em up. ALL OF 'EM.

Posted by Dave D.">Dave D. 2007-04-11 17:15|| 2007-04-11 17:15|| Front Page Top

#14 It's extremely difficult to argue with your logic, Dave D.. I can only wonder if America will ever again have leadership capable of such swift decision-making. However overvalued concensus most certainly is which the Bush administration is direct proof of it still remains far too popular to imagine that any leader from either side of the aisle would undertake America's defense without first deferring to this immensely overrated political tool.

Posted by Zenster">Zenster 2007-04-11 17:53|| 2007-04-11 17:53|| Front Page Top

#15 THEN, and ONLY then, will Newt Gingrich be elected president.

Posted by Perfesser 2007-04-11 17:58|| 2007-04-11 17:58|| Front Page Top

#16 "I can only wonder if America will ever again have leadership capable of such swift decision-making."

Well, "ever again" covers a possibly very long time span.

Certainly, the timid, ineffectual leadership we have now would not be capable of it. It has tired, it has faltered, and it appears to be on the brink of failing. Too much nice guy, too much blind faith in the magical curing powers of freedom and democracy, too much inappropriate respect for international institutions, too much goddamn patience with "allies" who are allies in name only, and too much reliance on "diplomacy". And a gross deficiency of ruthlessness and sheer will to win.

We aren't going to get that kind of decisiveness out of any President the Democrats could possibly put forth, either-- not even the Ur-Bitch herself.

I've been doing a lot of thinking lately along the lines of "Where are we headed with this thing? What is most likely to happen over the next couple of years? Given what we've seen so far, how is this struggle against Islam likely to play out?"

I don't think too fast, so I'm still working on it; but I don't like what my crystal ball is showing me. Not one bit.

Posted by Dave D.">Dave D. 2007-04-11 18:18|| 2007-04-11 18:18|| Front Page Top

#17 And let me add that I think even Glenmore is being optimistic. :(

Posted by Dave D.">Dave D. 2007-04-11 18:19|| 2007-04-11 18:19|| Front Page Top

#18 Let me know where another Eisenhower or Truman can be found amongst the flotsam and jetsam of America's political landscape and I'll take back that "ever again". The poison of Political Correctness and Multiculturalism has polluted not just this nation's moral water table but is corroding the bedrock of its very character.

How in Hell can any towering leadership spring forth from such salted earth?

Posted by Zenster">Zenster 2007-04-11 18:35|| 2007-04-11 18:35|| Front Page Top

#19 Zenster, as I wrote earlier, a nuke cooking off in one's own country will have a clarifying effect. It will likely rouse emotions that almost all of our current political leadership have not felt, ever, in their lives. That is the real fear and awareness of death. Self preservation combined with rage and profound grief over the loss of loved ones, friends and countrymen can force profound change very quickly. It can make even the hardcore Dems forget the teachings of Joe Stalin, at least for a while. And for those who are not hardcore, our enemy will be revealed, in an up close and personal way, to be shown as the utter animals they are. Dehumanized in this way the decision to slaughter them will come rather easily.

It is all a horror almost too awful to contemplate, but contemplate it we must. Our enemy is forcing us to do so.

Posted by remoteman 2007-04-11 19:44|| 2007-04-11 19:44|| Front Page Top

#20 Nuke goes off here, their better be few countries glowing in the dark or a whole bunch of political leaders are going to get hanged.

Posted by djohn66 2007-04-11 20:11|| 2007-04-11 20:11|| Front Page Top

#21 As to the UN, with a little luck the terrorists would pick Turtle Bay as ground zero.

Posted by RWV 2007-04-11 21:11|| 2007-04-11 21:11|| Front Page Top

#22 If a nuke goes off in this country there will be a whole lot of leftards screaming it was a Bush 'Gulf of Tonkin' to re-energize his racist campaign against Islam and the browner peoples of the world. Count on it.

Posted by Glenmore">Glenmore 2007-04-11 21:28|| 2007-04-11 21:28|| Front Page Top

#23 RWV, about 15 million Americans (and their guest workers), including me, lots of 9/11 victims' families, FDNY firefighters, etc., live within 40 miles of Turtle Bay. Let's not get crazy and encourage the terrorists to nuke the UN in New York. I'd prefer it if the UN dies of suicide or old age, not murder.

Posted by Tibor 2007-04-11 22:03|| http://incompetenttibor.blogspot.com]">[http://incompetenttibor.blogspot.com] 2007-04-11 22:03|| Front Page Top

#24 if a nuke goes off - our standard of "civil restraint" is waived, and a leftard will be actively seeking medical care (hopefully denied) around me.

Posted by Frank G">Frank G 2007-04-11 22:47|| 2007-04-11 22:47|| Front Page Top

#25 yea I hate the UN to, but I wouldn't want the people around it to die, so we demolish it ourselves and build Condos.:)

Posted by djohn66 2007-04-11 22:58|| 2007-04-11 22:58|| Front Page Top

#26 It is all a horror almost too awful to contemplate, but contemplate it we must. Our enemy is forcing us to do so.

Word, remoteman. The inability of America, particularly the Left, to consider fully the implications of nuclear terrorism make possible many extra layers of misplaced sympathy and inappropriate conspiracy theories.

If a nuke goes off in this country there will be a whole lot of leftards screaming it was a Bush 'Gulf of Tonkin' to re-energize his racist campaign against Islam and the browner peoples of the world. Count on it.

Glenmore, are you having a major bout of cynicism these days? I know that I am, but you're really pegging the needle. Worst of all, as Dave D. already noted, is how difficult it is to counter your own points.

Posted by Zenster">Zenster 2007-04-11 23:15|| 2007-04-11 23:15|| Front Page Top

#27 Nuke goes off here, their better be few countries glowing in the dark or a whole bunch of political leaders are going to get hanged.

Like I said, djohn66, the lamp posts will beckon irresistibly should inaction by our leaders seem a viable option. Confronted with such a revolting turn of events, I can only hope that America's military leadership will override any spineless executive stand-down and release a nuclear response of their own accord.

More than anyone, the Chiefs of Staff had damn well better have a thorough understanding of how many troops would be lost in an attempt to retaliate through conventional means when a Response-In-Kind is demanded. America's soldiers deserve that much, at least.

Posted by Zenster">Zenster 2007-04-11 23:20|| 2007-04-11 23:20|| Front Page Top

#28 We aren't going to get that kind of decisiveness out of any President the Democrats could possibly put forth, either-- not even the Ur-Bitch herself.

Actually, IMHO, Hildebeast would go ballistic so fast that it would be just a blur. She's got an ample supply of vindictiveness that would kick in, overlying any remnants of rationality she purportedly possesses. The other side of the coin may be that she would not think twice (or at all) or wait for a confirmation, which may make things a bit messier for days after, compared with a president capable of strategic thinking.

Other Donks--may be a different cup of coffee...

Just to preempt any suspicion that I'd be okay with Hildebeast as president => hell no! There are many other things to consider.

Posted by twobyfour 2007-04-11 23:27|| 2007-04-11 23:27|| Front Page Top

#29 Don't fergit, any Amer Hiroshima(s) is ideally intended to be a "justified" response agz US imperialism + aggression + "arrogance", etc.
i.e. "AMERICA DESERVED TO BE ATTACKED";
+ Amerikans of the USSA/USR = USA can't be allowed to fight any nuke war, LIMITED OR FULL, potentially involving Russia-China on the side of Iran. Post-Hiroshima Amer must be prevented from employing its full milpol might = OTH force projection(s). Mainstream Amers must be "liberated" from their "Fascist" = Rightist Socialist bully-captors by our Motherly Leftist Socialists heroes.

Posted by JosephMendiola 2007-04-11 23:33|| 2007-04-11 23:33|| Front Page Top

#30 No cheating in line to be first to the Gulags = Death Chambers - iff we don't commit self-suicide widout demanding any explanation, it only proves our sinister Amerikan Rightist evil and corruptions worthy of Amer being attacked + wiped out by the "world community". D ***ng it, CAPITALISM + DEMOCRACY ISN'T STRONG ENUFF TO STOP GLOBAL WARMING!

Posted by JosephMendiola 2007-04-11 23:40|| 2007-04-11 23:40|| Front Page Top

23:55 JosephMendiola
23:49 Atomic Conspiracy
23:45 Zenster
23:43 JosephMendiola
23:41 Zenster
23:40 JosephMendiola
23:39 Zenster
23:34 Zenster
23:33 JosephMendiola
23:32 Zenster
23:28 Zenster
23:27 twobyfour
23:21 JosephMendiola
23:20 Zenster
23:15 Zenster
23:02 crosspatch
22:59 JosephMendiola
22:58 djohn66
22:57 gromgoru
22:57 Anguper Hupomosing9418
22:50 Frank G
22:47 Frank G
22:42 Canuckistan
22:33 trailing wife