Article

2008-08-11 Caucasus/Russia/Central Asia

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Posted by john frum 2008-08-11 20:14|| || Front Page|| [3 views ] Top

#1 Hmmm...Vlad and Dmi don't trust NATO? Could it be that the defenders of Western Civilization engineered sovereignty for the narco-entity of Kosovo, while Arabs are moving to cleanse Jews and Christians from the Middle East?

Didn't Clinton sign a document recognizing Serbian sovereignty over a demilitarized Kosovo? Didn't said document cause Serbs to remove their entire tank force out of that province? (Nevermind that Wesley Clark wanted to attack Russian troops who facilitated the withdrawl."

If a person who is blind and deaf is asked to describe and elephant, and only examines the creature's tail they he could claim an elephant is rope-like. Jimmy Carter myopia lives. Whatever happened to impartiality and objectivity?

Posted by McZoid 2008-08-11 20:47|| 2008-08-11 20:47|| Front Page Top

#2 " humanitarian corridor to allow Georgian troops and civilians to leave safely"

Ethnic cleansing at its best - on the end of a Russian backed and supplied bayonet.

Posted by OldSpook 2008-08-11 20:50|| 2008-08-11 20:50|| Front Page Top

#3 McZoid for you to ask for objectivity is laughable. You are so resoundingly bigoted and stupid that you are virtually self negating.

You poor ignorant fool. Do you now see the jackbooted thuggery and ethnic cleansing that you have promoted?

And FYI, this is about Georgia, not the balkans, so try staying on sopic, or you lose furhter what little (if any) credibility you have by engaging in a propaganda technique of dragging in alternate topic instead of answering the question at hand. That's evasion thereby negating your arguments -and basically losing the argument at hand.

Your further "argumentum ad nauseam" also shows you to be losing the arguements you place repeatedly with the same error.

So McZoid, answer: is Russia right to have invaded and subjugated the entire country of Georgia - and please back it up with reasons and reasoning, not just bald statments and your usual lie-filled anti-muslim diatribes about the "balkans" and saudi arabia. That's equivocation (which is invalid and means you lose yet again).

Posted by OldSpook 2008-08-11 21:02|| 2008-08-11 21:02|| Front Page Top

#4 Russian pushes rocket launchers to Georgia

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/LB679227.htm

Let OS explain what this means. Tbilisi, the new Grosny

Posted by Sherese Jones6358 2008-08-11 21:39|| 2008-08-11 21:39|| Front Page Top

Posted by OldSpook 2008-08-11 22:11|| 2008-08-11 22:11|| Front Page Top

#6 CHINESE MIL FORUM > GEORGIA ASKS CHINA FOR HELP [UNSC Resolution]. No official comitment or response yet from China at this time as per Georgia's request.

Also from SAME > POSTERS' DEBATE > RUSSIA's DOUBLE/MULTIPLE MOTIVES as per South Ossetian Conflict appears to primarily be:
* TO STOP/PRECLUDE EUROS = NATO FROM BYPASSING RUSSIA VIA CENTRAL ASIAN OIL PIPELINE [thru Georgia], i.e. RUSS WANTS TO SEE EURO-$$$ LOVE.
* OVERT WARNING TO US-NATO TO STOP
"BULLYING" AND "CONTAINING" RUSSIA, OR ELSE, espec as per US GMD-BMD [USGMD milfacs in Georgia] + NATO membership for former Soviet SSRS !?

REMINDER > RUSSIA = VLADVEDEV views AL QAEDA + TALIBAN AS DE FACTO US PROXIES, thus ISLAMIST MILITANT-TERR "SURGES" IN CENTRAL ASIA = PAN- ASIA in general is for Russ synonymous wid US = PRO-US MILPOL IMPERIALISM AGZ RUSSIA + EURASIA.

Posted by JosephMendiola 2008-08-11 22:12|| 2008-08-11 22:12|| Front Page Top

#7 WAFF.com threads > PAKISTAN DOESN'T EXPECT SINO-PAKISTAN RELATIONS TO LAST [Will China usurp or dominate Paki in LT?] + TURKISH AND PAKISTAN DEFENCE DEALS + TURKISH COBRAS IN GEORGIA [agz Russia] + PAKISTAN EXPANDING ITS NUCLEAR OPERATIONS [weapons-grade =plutonium NucFac/NucRex].

Posted by JosephMendiola 2008-08-11 22:19|| 2008-08-11 22:19|| Front Page Top

#8 Kosovo is not a narco-state, whatever else it might be. The Serbs were removed from Kosovo because we knew what they'd do if they were allowed to do it. Please note their track record in Bosnia.

And the Arabs have been looking to cleanse the Middle East for a substantial period of time. It isn't a new problem.

OS is right: this is about Georgia. Kosovo, however, will be used to justify the Russian attack. The Rooskies will claim that the renegade 'autonomous provinces' want freedom, just as the Kosovars did, and 'want' to be part of Mother Russia. That might even be true. They'll be incorporated into Russia.

The question is whether Georgia will lose its independence entirely. I think they just might. While it's completely wrong from the standpoint of both morality and international law, the Russians likely won't care and will relish the opportunity to use this disproportionate response to teach all their little neighbors a lesson.

Posted by Steve White 2008-08-11 22:31|| 2008-08-11 22:31|| Front Page Top

#9 My money is on a withdrawal after they batter the Georgians some more. They'll enforce S. Ossetia and Abkhazia "independence" of course with UN or Euro troops stationed in a DMZ buffer.

Saakashvili is finished politically. He may have support now, but that is just Georgian patriotism when under attack. Defeat requires a scapegoat.

Posted by john frum 2008-08-11 23:06|| 2008-08-11 23:06|| Front Page Top

#10 I would say now is a good time to activate the selective service and do a lottery. Don't actually draft anyone yet, but do a lottery, and bring back the REFORGER exercises with a small exercise right now.

Posted by crosspatch 2008-08-11 23:09|| 2008-08-11 23:09|| Front Page Top

#11 Dunno, JF. I suspect "General Comment" spoke for a lot of Russians when he posted this:

I think that in its response to Georgian attack, Russia is being too timid. It should not confine itself to strikes just in S.O. territory and nearby Gori, for example, but should completely destroy Georgian military's command and control infrastructure throughout Georgia.
[post #123 15:50 Russian Ground Forces Assault Vital Georgian City]

A hostile, intact Georgian government and Army supplied by the US through Turkey would be extremely embarrasing to the Russian government, not to mention expensive. And it would send exactly the wrong message to the "near-abroad" countries, wouldn't it?

Putin and Medvedev have a lot riding on a crushing victory at this point. The Russian leaders must answer to their constituencies, too.

Turkey will be the decisive player in the coming days.

Posted by mrp 2008-08-11 23:26|| 2008-08-11 23:26|| Front Page Top

#12 A couple of things Russia should do: (i) get out of the SALT treaty, replace engines on its medium range Iskander missles to extend their range beyond 500 km and move them into Kaliningrad to get ready to attack the interceptor sites, (ii) re-establish the radar listening post on Cuba, (iii) develop and put on Cuba interceptor missiles of its own as a "defensive" weapon - after all that's what americans have been telling us - its defensive, so no harm no faul; (iv) continue to rearm its ICBMs with hypesonic maneuvarable warheads; (iv) increase reliance on the submarine launched ICBMs and keep putting those new subs into service . . . and it should be alrighty after that, safe and sound.

Posted by blimpity_blimpity_bla 2008-08-11 23:27|| 2008-08-11 23:27|| Front Page Top

#13 blimpity_blimpity_bla
If thats your game then we in the US need to take Cuba and Chavez down now.

Posted by 3dc 2008-08-11 23:34|| 2008-08-11 23:34|| Front Page Top

#14 blimpity_blimpity_bla - You forget the Illudium Q-36 Explosive Space Modulator - they need one of those too!

Posted by Halliburton - Asymmetrical Reply Division 2008-08-11 23:37|| 2008-08-11 23:37|| Front Page Top

#15 It's not a game, unfortunately an expensive response to the U.S. missile defense. Or you are one of those who believes annoying Condi Rice with her "trajectory" theory. You know what I am talking about? To justify the location of the interceptors in Poland . . . and the radar in Chech republic.

Posted by blimpity_blimpity_bla 2008-08-11 23:40|| 2008-08-11 23:40|| Front Page Top

#16 Halliburton, ha-ha very funny. But you know what - that would be good too!
Whatever, the new boomers are entering the service, so . . .

Posted by blimpity_blimpity_bla 2008-08-11 23:43|| 2008-08-11 23:43|| Front Page Top

#17 SW: While it's completely wrong from the standpoint of both morality and international law, the Russians likely won't care and will relish the opportunity to use this disproportionate response to teach all their little neighbors a lesson.

It occurs to me that our pro-democracy stance might have to be altered somewhat. If we're not confronting Russia, we would normally downgrade relationships with dictatorships. If we're confronting Russia, we need to establish better relationships with all the dictatorships than surround Russia. These dictatorships understand that Russia could march in and take their land at any moment. The only reason they're allied with Russia is because they fear our pressure over democratic reforms (the same kind of pressure that brought the Ayatollah Khomeini to power). Bottom line is that we need to stop being so moralistic about democracy with respect to the countries on Russia's borders. Changing our policy will crack the Shanghai Cooperation Organization wide open, since the Central Asians know that the major threats to their territorial sovereignty are Russia and China, both members.

Posted by Zhang Fei 2008-08-11 23:44|| http://timurileng.blogspot.com]">[http://timurileng.blogspot.com] 2008-08-11 23:44|| Front Page Top

#18 Here's an interesting comment from the Italian foreign minister:

But Frattini warned: Asking for (the emergency summit) means moving toward a condemnation of Russia, a position that would be negative for all of Europe. He added: Its important that the Europe of 27 not divide itself into factions and small groups. It should be a bridge between the United States and Russia if it wants to have a political role with any weight.

In other words, let's pretend Russian expansionism isn't a problem. No problem. We can play that game, too. We can pretend right along with them. Russia's a lot closer to Italy than it is to the US.

Posted by Zhang Fei 2008-08-11 23:45|| http://timurileng.blogspot.com]">[http://timurileng.blogspot.com] 2008-08-11 23:45|| Front Page Top

#19 Buy the way, I don't really believe that much in asymetrical responses . . . they work mostly in ground warfare - guerilla type warfare. Russia should do what it can to do things symmetrically. Since China is expected to surpass the U.S. GDP by two-fold by 2050, China should help Russia in that department.

Posted by blimpity_blimpity_bla 2008-08-11 23:47|| 2008-08-11 23:47|| Front Page Top

#20 Just saw a state dept type on Fox late news talking about this. He was p-ssed off. They now seem to understand that the russians had planned this for some time. Russian troops were in both provinces under the guise of humanitarian work... fixing a railroad ... so it could be used for troops and ammo etc. Hopefully we will hear more about this.

Posted by Legolas 2008-08-11 23:47|| 2008-08-11 23:47|| Front Page Top

#21 Zhang Fei. You are a brilliant man! (or a woman?) If you reconsider your stance on democracy and will be willing to pander to any and each dictatorship that surrounds Russia, then why not just accept Russia as is, imperfect as it is. I fail to see the point. Why don't you just admit that you simply hate the russians for the sake of it, so that we can end this highly intellectual pretense.

Posted by blimpity_blimpity_bla 2008-08-11 23:53|| 2008-08-11 23:53|| Front Page Top

#22 BB: Since China is expected to surpass the U.S. GDP by two-fold by 2050, China should help Russia in that department.

By that time, I expect China to help itself to Mongolia, then Siberia. They're closer, and China does have historical claims to both. By that time, Russia will simply be a Chinese satellite state.

Posted by Zhang Fei 2008-08-11 23:54|| http://timurileng.blogspot.com]">[http://timurileng.blogspot.com] 2008-08-11 23:54|| Front Page Top

#23 blimpity_blimpity_bla - careful - you're heading deeper into fantasyland with GDP projections four decades ahead. China passes the if two events occur - they absorb the Russian far east, and the US of North America doesn't come into existence. Both occurring is unlikely, but one most likely will.

Oh - and they have some work to do on that whole "rule of law" thing. Admittedly they've had quite a while to work on it, and since a Shakespeare or Magna Carta seem to arise every millenia or so, you'd think the odds favor it, but it has'nt happened yet.

Posted by Halliburton - Asymmetrical Reply Division 2008-08-11 23:55|| 2008-08-11 23:55|| Front Page Top

#24 bb: Zhang Fei. You are a brilliant man! (or a woman?) If you reconsider your stance on democracy and will be willing to pander to any and each dictatorship that surrounds Russia, then why not just accept Russia as is, imperfect as it is. I fail to see the point. Why don't you just admit that you simply hate the russians for the sake of it, so that we can end this highly intellectual pretense.

The Central Asian dictatorships aren't Imperial Russia, an expansionist country with limitless territorial ambitions. Which is saying something, since at 17m sq km, Russia is 70% larger than the second largest country in the world.

Posted by Zhang Fei 2008-08-11 23:57|| http://timurileng.blogspot.com]">[http://timurileng.blogspot.com] 2008-08-11 23:57|| Front Page Top

23:57 Zhang Fei
23:55 Halliburton - Asymmetrical Reply Division
23:54 Zhang Fei
23:53 blimpity_blimpity_bla
23:49 Spike Uniter
23:47 Legolas
23:47 Legolas
23:47 blimpity_blimpity_bla
23:46 Legolas
23:46 Legolas
23:45 Legolas
23:45 Zhang Fei
23:44 Zhang Fei
23:43 blimpity_blimpity_bla
23:40 blimpity_blimpity_bla
23:38 JosephMendiola
23:37 Halliburton - Asymmetrical Reply Division
23:34 3dc
23:33 JosephMendiola
23:27 blimpity_blimpity_bla
23:26 mrp
23:20 DanNY
23:14 JosephMendiola
23:10 Plastic Snoopy