Article

2009-04-25 -Signs, Portents, and the Weather-

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Posted by john frum 2009-04-25 10:59|| || Front Page|| [1 views ] Top

#1 Mexico City is suspending all public events for 10 days

Posted by Anguper Hupomosing9418 2009-04-25 11:10|| 2009-04-25 11:10|| Front Page Top

#2 well, thank goodness we have a fully-controlled border to contain this

Posted by Frank G">Frank G 2009-04-25 11:42|| 2009-04-25 11:42|| Front Page Top

#3 Were the eight cases in the US undocumented Americans, Frank?

Posted by Muggsy Glink 2009-04-25 11:51|| 2009-04-25 11:51|| Front Page Top

#4 Were the eight cases in the US undocumented Americans, Frank?

LOL ... is that you, Harry?

Posted by Zorba Craising6734 2009-04-25 12:20|| 2009-04-25 12:20|| Front Page Top

#5 dunno, they won't say, but I doubt it (they have been extremely circumspect about the identity of the boy from San Diego - it's been my experience there's a reason). However, the prevalence of tuberculosis among illegals has been a known factor. This is just another present that could be gifted across our porous border. No?

Posted by Frank G">Frank G 2009-04-25 12:20|| 2009-04-25 12:20|| Front Page Top

#6 No controlling the borders and travel advisories against traveling to Mexico by the US. Boy howdy! I am sure glad that our govt is on top of this. How is the returning vet project going, Janet?

A$$hats.

Posted by Alaska Paul 2009-04-25 12:22|| 2009-04-25 12:22|| Front Page Top

#7 There are some real oddities about this Mexican flu. It is a combo of avian, human, swine from Europe and swine from Asia. This is why tests for it show positive results for other different known influenza.

The fatalities are mostly males from 25-44, which fits the "cytokine storm" profile of an over response from a healthy immune system that shreds the lungs. Death is by depriving the internal organs of oxygen, so ventilators are a must.

The major centers for the flu are fairly modern hospitals and, of all things, specialist medical centers, like cardiac clinics. Like the cytokine storm, this indicates a very novel form of H1N1 that takes a minimum of pathogen to cause an infection, unlike typical flu, for which most people have partial immunity.

Indoor infections also indicate air instead of hand contamination transfer. Flu optimally transmits through the air at 40F and low humidity, and when it is warmer and moister, it becomes more dependent on contact transfer. That is why the cool, dry air of a hospital spreads the virus so fast.

This also means that "fresh air" is important to slow the spread. Open windows are healthier than a/c, as new air circulates much faster.

A good field expedient air purifier would be to put UV lights in the major air ducts.

Posted by Anonymoose 2009-04-25 12:36|| 2009-04-25 12:36|| Front Page Top

#8 According to the official report from WHO, there have been now more than 854 cases of pneumonia reported from the capital (Mexico City) of which 59 have died (case fatality rate [CFR] 6.9 per cent). In San Luis Potosi (central Mexico) there were 24 cases of influenza-like illness (ILI) reported with 3 deaths (CFR 12.5 per cent) and in Mexicali, (near the border with the United States), there have been 4 cases of ILI reported with no deaths.

800 cases (hospital admissions apparently) means it is beyond the point it can be contained. I'd say it is coming to your town or city, sooner rather than later.

Posted by phil_b 2009-04-25 12:37|| 2009-04-25 12:37|| Front Page Top

#9 I work as a resident doctor in one of the biggest hospitals in Mexico City and sadly, the situation is far from "under control". As a doctor, I realise that the media does not report the truth. Authorities distributed vaccines among all the medical personnel with no results, because two of my partners who worked in this hospital (interns) were killed by this new virus in less than six days even though they were vaccinated as all of us were. The official number of deaths is 20, nevertheless, the true number of victims are more than 200. I understand that we must avoid to panic, but telling the truth it might be better now to prevent and avoid more deaths.

Yeny Gregorio Dávila, Mexico City

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/talki...int/ 8018428.stm

This article from 2005.

updated 10:21 a.m. PT, Fri., April 15, 2005

GENEVA - Health experts have destroyed two-thirds of the specimens of a killer influenza virus sent as part of routine test kits around the world, but were still trying to trace two shipments that were supposed to go to Mexico and Lebanon, U.N. officials said Friday.
The World Health Organization has been urging thousands of labs in 18 countries which received vials of the nearly 50-year-old H2N2 virus to destroy the samples amid fears of a global pandemic should the virus be released.

WHO influenza chief Klaus Stohr said 10 of the countries which had received samples had confirmed their labs had destroyed the virus. Labs in Lebanon and Mexico, however, never received the specimen even though they were on the distribution list, Stohr said.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7515802/

Posted by Lampedusa Flinetle9428 2009-04-25 13:45|| 2009-04-25 13:45|| Front Page Top

#10 yep - Fox has a CDC release saying the flu has spread too widely to be contained

/Captain Trips anyone?

Posted by Frank G">Frank G 2009-04-25 14:00|| 2009-04-25 14:00|| Front Page Top

#11 Well, let's throw up our collective hands and give up. Public health emergency? Then treat it like a public health emergency.

Posted by Alaska Paul 2009-04-25 14:23|| 2009-04-25 14:23|| Front Page Top

#12 The weasel in the White House is giving yet another prime-time speech Weds. night. Look for him to either apologize to Mexico or blame it on Bush. Or both.

Posted by Zorba Craising6734 2009-04-25 14:25|| 2009-04-25 14:25|| Front Page Top

#13 If he blames it on Bush, in this case he *is* right. Bush dawdled and delayed doing anything substantial about border security for his entire term. Same goes for the GOP when they had the majority.

Plenty of blame to go around.

Nothing that a full-deployment of military forces, especially combat engineers, to the border coulndt fix in 60 days.

Posted by OldSpook 2009-04-25 15:45|| 2009-04-25 15:45|| Front Page Top

#14 Ignore the World Health Organization, WHO, pronouncements. The accurate information will come from the CDC. WHO folks are sitting in their offices in Geneva trying to scare up more funding.

Please note that the Mexicans are reporting pneumonia, NOT FLU! While pneumonia is often a result of an influenza infection, there are many viruses that have the same symptoms and can result in pneumonia.

There is a pneumonia vaccine. A one-time shot. If you do not have it, get it.

The missing flu virus IS NOT this flu. This flu is the swine variety of A)H1N1. The human version was the Spanish Flu. It then returned in the 1970's and this year's flu vaccine included it.

Neither the CDC nor the WHO has released the ages of any people killed by the ILI, influenza like illness. Absent an offical data release, discussion of the age of those killed is speculation.

Mexico City is at an altitude of over 7,000 feet. It also experiences some of the worst air pollution on the planet. It also has limited First World healthcare available. Combine all that and IT IS NOT SURPRISING that people die from lung infections.

Posted by Chuck Simmins">Chuck Simmins 2009-04-25 15:47|| http://northshorejournal.org]">[http://northshorejournal.org] 2009-04-25 15:47|| Front Page Top

#15 So far today:

BULLETIN -- NEW YORK CITY OFFICIALS SAY UP TO 200 CHILDREN SICK AT QUEENS HIGH SCHOOL; INITIAL TESTS APPEAR TO SHOW SWINE FLU.

New York Health Commissioner says anyone who is feeling sick should stay at home, urges people not to go to school or work when sick.

BULLETIN -- WORLD HEALTH ORGANIZATION DECLARES SWINE FLU EPIDEMIC AN INTERNATIONAL PUBLIC HEALTH EMERGENCY.

BULLETIN -- REPORT: SWINE FLU CASES CONFIRMED IN KANSAS.

BULLETIN -- FAMILY MEMBERS OF QUEENS SCHOOL CHILDREN REPORTING SWINE FLU SYMPTOMS.

H1N1 kills people with the strongest immune systems because it tricks the immune system into a massive response. The body over-reacts and the lungs fill with fluid. The Spanish Flu of 1918 also killed this way and also took mostly adults between 20 and 45.

The 1918 Spanish Flu was also an H1N1 strain.

Posted by crosspatch 2009-04-25 16:58|| 2009-04-25 16:58|| Front Page Top

#16 H1N1 kills people with the strongest immune systems

my advice? Drink heavily. But then again, that's my usual advice since January 20th

Posted by Frank G">Frank G 2009-04-25 17:02|| 2009-04-25 17:02|| Front Page Top

#17 work as a resident doctor in one of the biggest hospitals in Mexico City

Keep us posted so we know when to stop worrying about you, Lampedusa Flinetle9428, and as stay as safe as can be, under the circumstances. As for the rest of us, it's time to stock our pantries, start washing our hands hourly with soap (ideally) or alcohol gel (if necessary), cough into our elbows instead of our hands, and get that pneumonia vaccine. Oh, and look up some things Anonymoose had written the first time we were worried about bird flu. Be right back...

Posted by trailing wife ">trailing wife 2009-04-25 17:07|| 2009-04-25 17:07|| Front Page Top

#18 "The White House says President Obama has not shown any flu-like symptoms since his trip to Mexico. A person he met had swine flu."

Source BNO

BULLETIN -- BRITISH AIRLINES CREW MEMBER TAKEN TO HOSPITAL WITH FLU-LIKE ILLNESS.

Posted by crosspatch 2009-04-25 17:12|| 2009-04-25 17:12|| Front Page Top

#19 I was going to make a comment about avoiding Mexican swine ... but thought the better of it.

Posted by crosspatch 2009-04-25 17:13|| 2009-04-25 17:13|| Front Page Top

#20 Herewith I dump upon you the notes I've kept in my PalmPilot from the several times Rantburgers have posted on the subject. Unsorted, sorry about that. I imagine there are updates based on more recent information, so have at it, those of you who know. Bottom line, there are things we can do to reduce the probability of being infected, and reduce the severity of infection should it happen anyway. And even if there it doesn't go beyond regional outbreaks this time, it's good to know what to do, even if only for a regular flu infection.

there are several things that can be done to prevent the disease. First and foremost is when you are out in public during an outbreak, to use hand sanitizer about six times a day. This is because it was recently proven that most colds and flus are spread by hand contamination.

Vitamin D3 (Cholecalciferol) (NOT vitamin D2), has recently been found to cause the body to secrete a chemical that erodes the casings of some viruses, which destroys them. Most people are vitamin D deficient.

Ordinary cranberry juice, taken in considerable quantity, has been proven to strongly limit virus adhesion to human cells, for certain viruses and bacteria. Unknown for the flu.

Zinc gluconate lozenges (Cold-eeze brand only), have been proven to strongly inhibit reproduction of viruses in the sinuses. Ordinary zinc supplements do not produce this effect, because their form of zinc is not readily uptaken by the mucous membranes.

Other ionic metals such as colloidal silver also have a reproductive-inhibition effect, but it has not been determined how they could be used for this purpose.

Weird one: The British recently did a study of how temperature relates to colds and flus, and discovered that only the feet seem to matter. That is, if a person's feet are cold, they have a significantly greater chance of catching colds and flus. No other body part even comes close.

However, the "cytokine storm" effect has been confirmed with the avian flu, so under NO circumstances should you take immune system enhancing chemicals. The storm effect happens when your immune system overreacts in fighting a virus and kills you.

Posted by: Anonymoose|| 2006-12-11 13:46

And

Conventional antiviral medicines designed for flu have received mixed reviews, from both patients and physicians. The oldest, amantadine, originally designed for Parkinson's disease, seemed to shorten influenza in those patients. The newer drugs, zanamivir (Relenza), which is a nasal spray, and oseltamivir (Tamiflu), are both very expensive. You have to use them early in the course of the condition for any effectiveness. Most physicians are skeptical but feel they're better to give than antibiotics, which are useless for the flu.

Your body should react with fever as the lymphocytes get primed for their job. The fever is not a bad thing in this case, just try to keep it in check to around 38C (100.5F): use aspirin (or preferrably acetaminophen or acetylsolicylic acid, especially when children are involved--max.daily dose less than 4000mg to prevent internal bleeding). Fever inhibits that part of the virus which breaches the cell membrane, thus limiting infection so the body defences have an easier job. *Give children under age 16 acetaminophen, not aspirin, which can cause Reye's Syndrome, a rare but potentially fatal childhood disorder.*

Keep in medicine cabinet:

1. Antiviral supplements like vitamin A may help shorten the duration of the flu by attacking the virus itself, rather than suppressing symptoms. To treat a case of the flu, take vitamin A in high doses (50,000 IU twice a day) until symptoms improve, but for no more than seven days. After that, reduce the dosage to 25,000 IU a day, if necessary. (Pregnant women or women planning pregnancy, however, should never exceed 5,000 IU vitamin A per day.)

2. Vitamin C. Skip the ascorbic acid (it is not really a C Vitamin, just one of it components) and get tablets that contain plant extracts. It is usually in combination with other vitamins and substances--the dosage is lower, but it is the real thing. If you like parsley, it is one of the richest sources of C Vitamin, beats citrus fruits hands down. Better yet, freshly dug up and grated horseradish is the king. Try not to breathe when ingesting or you may have a serious hack attack--it is quite likely that your sensitivity to the aromatic component would be somewhat diminished, though. C Vitamin dosage -- 2000mg daily for seven days. I don't have the specific amounts of the produce to get that dosage. But combining it with a vitamin supplement may be the best way.

2. Garlic, raw, crushed or grated has bacteriocidal properties and the aromatic compounds may be another inhibiting factor in prevention of viral spread.

3. Zinc lozenges may also help speed recovery, perhaps by destroying the flu virus itself. (Read zinc lozenge labels carefully. Only zinc gluconate, ascorbate, and glycinate help fight colds. Don't buy zinc products containing sorbitol, mannitol, or citric acid. When combined with saliva, these ingredients make zinc ineffective.) Another tip is to try breaking the tablets into quarters; suck on each piece every 30 minutes to 1 hour. If the particular virus you have is sensitive to the zinc, after the fourth tablet you should notice some relief in your sore throat pain.

4. Echinacea to boost your immune system. For prevention, alternate every 3 weeks with the herb astragalus. To treat (but not prevent) flu, combine echinacea with goldenseal.

5. Drink plenty of fluids to prevent dehydration -- helps keep the mucous lining of the respiratory system moist, better able to fight infection: water, apple/grape/ blueberry/orange juice, vegetable/ chicken/beef broth, sports drink (has minerals and electrolytes). The fever will leave you somewhat dehydrated, water is good, but you need to replenish the loss caused by sweating because of fever.

6. Use a humidifer or cool-mist vaporizer during the winter to keep indoor air moist. There is a common misconceptuion that the virus likes moist environment. That is not the case. It thrives on dehydrated tissues. It needs slightly off balance pH to propagate most efficiently which is usually caused by dehydratation.

And

Info about local conditions by ZIP code: http://flustar.com/

When to Call a Doctor

? If flu symptoms do not subside after a week or if you begin to feel better and then suffer a relapse. This could indicate a bacterial lung infection.

? If you notice green, dark yellow or brown mucus. This could indicate a bacterial infection in the lungs or sinuses.

? If you experience chest pain, shortness of breath or difficulty breathing. This could be a sign of pneumonia, especially if accompanied by a high fever.

? If you have a sore throat in addition to a fever of above 101?F that lasts for 24 hours. This could indicate strep throat, which requires antibiotics.

? Whenever you contract the flu--if you are at high risk for flu complications

Posted by: Sobiesky 2005-02-22

Flu notes:
at the national level, its been decided to use vaccine sparingly, among those groups most likely to spread the disease, and where known outbreaks have occurred, rather than for those most susceptible: the old, very young, and infirm. Priority now goes to schoolchildren where an outbreak is detected, because schoolchildren are the biggest *human* vector of pulmonary diseases, such as flu.

In the last six months it was discovered that, contrary to popular belief, pulmonary diseases are not primarily transmitted through coughing and sneezing, but through hand contamination. Therefore, if you avoid touching and being touched by infected people, and touching what they have touched, you significantly lower your chances of catching the disease. However, since this may be unavoidable, if you are out in public during an outbreak, you should sanitize your hand with Purell or equivalent 6 or more times a day. As silly as this sounds, it was estimated that it would reduce your chance of infection by 80%!

Purell is just rubbing alcohol plus moisturizer, but it's far more effective at sterilizing otherwise clean skin than antiseptic hand soap. So the rule is: if there is obvious contamination, use soap and water; if there is not, use Purell. Most antiseptic soaps use the same antiseptic ingredient,which has therefore become less effective over time.

Prior preparation is useful, as an epidemic could drag on for six to nine months, which was the duration of the last killer flu, the "Spanish Flu". Note from JFM (10/17/05): Mortality from the Spanish flu was 3%. Reason it was so deadly was because it struck half the world population.

A cruel fact is that people will die. On average, some 36,000 Americans die every year from ordinary flu. When the population of the US was about 50M, from 200k to 2M died. We now number at around 380M, and it's possible anywhere from 1M to 10M Americans could die this time.

It is important to remember that the dead are still infectious for quite some time, even if they are pets or loved ones. This is the acid test to not becoming infected yourself.
http://www.oie.int/eng/maladies/fiches/a_A150.htm

General information about this strain as far as disinfection: rule of thumb, viruses can only live for a short period of time outside of a host cell. Whatever environment supports host cells is probably good for the virus. In this case, a moist, neutral or slightly basic pH. Also note that it can survive for 3 hours at 133F. So your rice noodles should be okay, and the skin of the pineapple might be contaminated, but the acidic fruit would be okay. [As far as food goes, the hardiest pathogenic viruses are Hepatitis A and Norwalk.]

Posted by: Anonymoose 2005-02-21

And

Influenza #3

There are a few OTC preventatives available, and these should be remembered and used when the flu period hits. (Also remember that flu hits in two major waves, so don't let your guard down after the first one has passed through your area.)

First and most important, during the outbreak, use hand sanitizer with alcohol six times a day, using soap if there is obvious contamination. This will reduce your odds of catching flu by 80%.

Second, slowly dissolve 3 or more Cold-Eeze lozenges in your mouth each day, refraining from food or drink for an hour afterwards. The proprietary metallic zinc available only in that brand of lozenge, not in supplements, inhibits virus reproduction in your mucous membranes. Tastes bad but it is worth it in this case.

Third, drink large quantities of ordinary store-bought cranberry juice. Large amounts only of cranberry juice may prevent cell transfer of these viruses, though only proven so far to work in two other types. It also contains large amounts of vitamin C, which may have a prophalaxis effect against the disease. (Note: small amounts of juice have little or no effect.)

An obvious solution: avoid people with the disease, even loved ones. Insist that *they* hand sanitize even more frequently, to reduce contamination in your shared environment.

A very strong decontaminant can be obtained at health food stores. GSE Grapefruit seed extract, sold as a "calcium supplement", is extremely toxic to microorganisms, but is non-toxic to people. A few drops will sterilize a quart of water (metallic calcium ions). If you are in a closed air system with people who have the disease, add a tablespoon to the water of a room vaporizer/humidifier. It will speed disinfection of surfaces in the room and the air considerably.

Other common sense precautions include frequent laundering of linen and clothing using oxygen bleach, not re-using dirty dishes by diswashing more frequently, and if you do get surgical masks, they should be worn by those with the disease, if at all possible. Disposable latex gloves are very inexpensive and should be worn before cleaning and disposing of vomit and diarrhea messes. Remember to dispose of them or to decontaminate the outside of the gloves after handling contaminant.

Again, I apologize for the data dump without paring down duplicate information. On taking a late lunch break from working in the garden with Mr. Wife on the first hot day of the year. :-)

Posted by trailing wife ">trailing wife 2009-04-25 17:22|| 2009-04-25 17:22|| Front Page Top

#21 From what little I've read, I gather the following:

A lot of people in Mexico City died of pneumonia.

Some people in various places have tested positive for one or more variants of swine flu, severity not exactly clear.

Significance of the above is TBD.

Posted by Cynicism Inc 2009-04-25 19:30|| 2009-04-25 19:30|| Front Page Top

#22 I'd add to TW's list.

Do not get the flu vaccine. At least until we have good evidence that it doesn't increase the risk of the more severe form of the flu.

And before I get attacked on this. I know that most of the so called risks from vaccines are nonsense, but not only do I think the flu vaccine risk is real, in all likelyhood we will put many millions at irreversable risk by giving them the vaccine before the risk is firmly established.

For an explanation of the risk, google why there is no vaccine for dengue.

Posted by phil_b 2009-04-25 19:52|| 2009-04-25 19:52|| Front Page Top

#23 A)H1N1 was the Spanish Flu. It reemerged in the 1970's and this year's seasonal influenza vaccine included a component to convey A)H1N1 immunity.

However, the swine version of A)H1N1 is not the same thing. As the CDC reports on its site, there are 1-2 cases every year of swine flu in humans in the United States.

People are dying in Mexico City because the healthcare is crap, the people are exposed to immense amounts of air pollution that tax the lungs, and... pneumonia deaths do NOT equal flu deaths. Lots of other diseases can result pneumonia as a follow-on disease.

All of the cases in the United States of swine flu, and the illnesses at the school in NYC, another 100 or so people, have all been mild. No one is dying.

Posted by Chuck Simmins">Chuck Simmins 2009-04-25 19:55|| http://northshorejournal.org]">[http://northshorejournal.org] 2009-04-25 19:55|| Front Page Top

#24 Another reason to worry is that (Mexican) authorities said the dead so far dont include vulnerable infants and elderly.

That says severe immune reaction/cytokine storm/Hemmoraghic rather than ordinary flu.

Posted by phil_b 2009-04-25 20:33|| 2009-04-25 20:33|| Front Page Top

#25 Thank you for that information and I am in complete agreement with what you wrote.I would like to suggest my trick as it has helped me many times with flu virus but not bacterial. Apple cider vinegar added to a glass of water to taste. Then drink several full glasses. When you have had enough you will have to relieve yourself. Should you catch it in time its like frost on a plant. This allows your body to flush out the trash. No vomit, intestinal trouble etc.. This works with food poisoning as well. Body chemistry is changed to what the bug doesn't like, Apple cider Vinegar will work as a pain killer and kills germs on contact. Most if not all infections want poor circulation, normal body temp. , an acidic chemistry, and low blood oxygen levels. Yes vinegar is like a grape fruit in its effect on blood chemistry. React quick !!!!, normal signs of flu to look for.
TKY
Dale

Posted by Dale">Dale 2009-04-25 20:34|| 2009-04-25 20:34|| Front Page Top

#26 Just in: Mexican officials say fatalities jumped from 68 to 81 in 24 hours.

1. If you have had vaccinations in the past, there is a good chance you have at least partial immunity to this flu. That is why it is being experienced as something mind in the US. In Mexico you have a lot of people who have never had the flu vaccine and the only immunity they have is to what they have been exposed to.

2. This strain of H1N1 kills by immune system over-reaction. If you have never been exposed to this virus before and have a healthy immune system, the reaction to it will be for the lungs to fill with fluid as part of an immune system response.

Having some immunity to H1N1 through immunizations against other strains in the past will make the response much less severe.

Posted by crosspatch 2009-04-25 20:50|| 2009-04-25 20:50|| Front Page Top

#27 For an explanation of the risk, google why there is no vaccine for dengue.

I just did, phil_b. Wikipedia says there has been a dengue fever vaccine initiative since 2003; one candidate is now in human clinical testing (3,000-5,000 base size), with several other candidates in phase 1 or phase 2 testing, whatever that means.

Please explain in more detail why a vaccine for cytokine-storm triggering flu is risky. Please also use very small words -- clearly I'm not thinking quickly tonight. Thanks!

Posted by trailing wife">trailing wife 2009-04-25 22:34|| 2009-04-25 22:34|| Front Page Top

#28 Alert: Severe outbreak of hysteria on Drudge.

Posted by Cynicism Inc 2009-04-25 22:35|| 2009-04-25 22:35|| Front Page Top

#29 Mr. Drudge does enjoy his hysteria, Cynicism, Inc. Hysteria drives page hits so very nicely. I vote for stocking the pantry and first aid kit, getting the family inoculated against pneumonia, and waiting calmly for whatever passes, knowing we're as prepared as may be. We've already got a cable modem, so I can easily catch the latest on Rantburg. :-)

Posted by trailing wife">trailing wife 2009-04-25 22:38|| 2009-04-25 22:38|| Front Page Top

#30 Wow, for once I'm glad I'm late to this party. Great information from tw (naturally!) and others. Will go stock up and arrange for those pneumonia shots....

Posted by Cornsilk Blondie 2009-04-25 23:22|| 2009-04-25 23:22|| Front Page Top

#31 The information came from others, Cornsilk Blondie. I just carry it with me everywhere in my portable memory -- an entire section of which is devoted to good advice and information from various Rantburgers.

Posted by trailing wife">trailing wife 2009-04-25 23:24|| 2009-04-25 23:24|| Front Page Top

23:28 3dc
23:24 trailing wife
23:23 trailing wife
23:22 Cornsilk Blondie
23:20 trailing wife
23:16 3dc
23:13 3dc
23:10 Cornsilk Blondie
23:07 Zorba Craising6734
22:49 Pappy
22:38 trailing wife
22:35 Cynicism Inc
22:34 trailing wife
22:24 mhw
22:08 Barbara Skolaut
22:06 Barbara Skolaut
21:56 Gladys
21:38 Frank G
21:33 OldSpook
21:33 OldSpook
21:33 Zorba Craising6734
21:10 phil_b
20:59 Dale
20:50 crosspatch