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2012-04-08 Home Front: Politix
Stand Your Ground Laws = More Homicides?
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Posted by Bobby 2012-04-08 11:44|| E-Mail|| Front Page|| [266 views ]  Top

#1 Firearm Ownership is Mandatory for All Households in Kennesaw, Georgia

25 29 Years Later, "Gun Town USA" Continues to Maintains Exceptionally Low Crime Stats

Link
Posted by Besoeker 2012-04-08 12:06||   2012-04-08 12:06|| Front Page Top

#2 nice WaPo handwringing. These are the douchebags that made outlawing guns for noncriminals in DC acceptable, while the criminal class never had a problem getting/carrying/using guns. They are philosophically against a citizen doing anything for themselves without State control, even self-defense
Posted by Frank G 2012-04-08 12:10||   2012-04-08 12:10|| Front Page Top

#3 The WaPo element doesn't have a problem either. They have doormen and security systems in their DC-area condos, gated communities, armed security and cops who are quite aware of who is paying their salaries.
Posted by Pappy 2012-04-08 12:40||   2012-04-08 12:40|| Front Page Top

#4 Question which never get answered.

How many unjustified murders have been prevented by Stand your ground and simular doctrines.

And yes, you *do* have to count (or estimate) future murders the goblin may commit which his untimly demise prevented.
Posted by CrazyFool 2012-04-08 12:49||   2012-04-08 12:49|| Front Page Top

#5 Had someone ask me once why I wasn't afraid to have my kids handling guns. I told them the guns are fine, but I won't let the kids use my power tools--those are dangerous!
Posted by Iblis 2012-04-08 12:56||   2012-04-08 12:56|| Front Page Top

#6 It is important to jump into a tragedy and force opinions onto people before the facts come out. If you are loud enough and repeat the issues enough people will remember your opinion years later no matter what the reality. This is the game the MSM plays. They had to know the edited tape would be exposed yet did it anyway. They all know the Stand Your Ground did not apply in this situation yet they keep harping it.
Posted by rjschwarz 2012-04-08 16:38||   2012-04-08 16:38|| Front Page Top

#7 Even more battle-space preparation for the fall election. The progressive pols behind Champ's campaign are looking for every 0.1% of the electorate they can get right now.
Posted by Steve White 2012-04-08 17:04||   2012-04-08 17:04|| Front Page Top

#8 "defendants would simply claim self-defense and challenge prosecutors to prove they were lying."

Isn't that the essence of innocent until proven guilty?
Posted by flash91 2012-04-08 17:12||   2012-04-08 17:12|| Front Page Top

#9 Good thing you're not an editor for the media, flash91!
Posted by Bobby 2012-04-08 17:34||   2012-04-08 17:34|| Front Page Top

#10 "Stand your ground means stand your ground. It doesn't mean chase after somebody who's turned their back."

I think Jeb bush has a point here. This applied even in the roughest times of the Wild West.
Posted by European Conservative 2012-04-08 17:39||   2012-04-08 17:39|| Front Page Top

#11 Bill Cosby: persuasive as shit. Comments are entirely about judgment, not about race. What was a neighborhood watch guy doing with a loaded gun?
Posted by RandomJD 2012-04-08 18:47||   2012-04-08 18:47|| Front Page Top

#12 What was a neighborhood watch guy doing with a loaded gun?

Exercising his rights as spelled out in the Constitution.
Posted by Laurence of the Rats 2012-04-08 20:04||   2012-04-08 20:04|| Front Page Top

#13 Key word: JUSTIFIED. These previously would have gone down as manslaughter charges, and then been dropped or plea bargained down.

What was a neighborhood watch guy doing with a loaded gun?

As opposed to carrying an unloaded one? Do you realize just how much stupidity and bias your question shows?

To answer your question, silly as it is: He was doing the same thing I do with my CCW permit (or no permit at all if you live in Alaska Vermont or similar) - having his chosen legal weapon on his person, to defend against an assailant. I try to be armed at all times that it is legal for me to be so. That is my personal God-given right to self defense, per natural law, and enumerated in the 2nd Amendment.

And yes, I am also on my local Neighborhood Watch. Would you expect me to DISARM because I volunteered to keep an eye on my neighbors houses, and occasionally distribute flyers and crime prevention tips from the local Sheriff? (that's all the NW usually is).

The one thing different is I would have exercised better judgement (and that's the one thing I hold against Zimmerman): I would have simply called 911 from my vehicle and circled the block, keeping a quiet distant eye on things until the PD arrives. I have no desire to jump into a "situation" unless there is a life at stake. In the service, I got enough of putting myself in harms way (and consequently harming others) to last me the rest of my life. Zimmerman is learning the hard lesson that killing another person, even if justified, changes things.
Posted by OldSpook 2012-04-08 21:24||   2012-04-08 21:24|| Front Page Top

#14 OldSpook: with you 100% both in terms of carrying (you have a 2nd amendment right to do so) and Zimmerman's behavior.

Just because a person is in the neighborhood watch and is carrying does NOT mean that it is prudent to approach someone who you think might be trouble. Call 911, keep a discrete eye on the person of interest and stay the hell out of the way. You intervene only if there is a life on the line, and then you'd better be well trained, capable of reacting, and DAMNED SURE you're right.

Otherwise you're in a world of hurt, both from society and from your own conscience for the rest of your life.

Zimmerman's training? Don't know, haven't seen this in the news. His reactions? Suspect. Sure he's right? Don't know yet, sure hope the special prosecutor answers that correctly.

Now I THINK Mr. Cosby, whom I respect, is trying to get at this, but (of course) in a TV interview he can't lay it all out as you can in print. His complaint about carrying, I think, is not about a right to carry (I don't know if he honors the 2nd amendment or not) but more about being prudent and careful.

IF that's what he meant, then we're all in violent agreement.
Posted by Steve White 2012-04-08 21:35||   2012-04-08 21:35|| Front Page Top

#15 OS - agreed
Posted by Frank G 2012-04-08 22:55||   2012-04-08 22:55|| Front Page Top

#16 by the way - the "following/apprehending" is in question. Purportedly, he'd started to return to his vehicle, when the altercation began, I know jack sh*t other than what we've all read/heard. I won't say anything further til the facts be known
Posted by Frank G 2012-04-08 22:59||   2012-04-08 22:59|| Front Page Top

#17 Good points.

What I am interested in, and nobody has ever explained it, is what was Trayvon doing that peaked Zimmerman's interest to the point where he left his vehicle and call 911.

The story so far seems that say that Zimmerman called 911 solely because he saw a hooded figure walking down the street. Is this 'normal' for a neighborhood watch? Or was Treyvon (who had been caught with 'burglary tools and womans jewelery') might have been taking too close a look at the houses along the street.

Is there a situation where a Watch person would leave their vehicle?
Posted by CrazyFool 2012-04-08 23:05||   2012-04-08 23:05|| Front Page Top

#18 Transcript:
http://bizsecurity.about.com/od/creatingpolicies/a/A-Transcript-Of-The-George-Zimmerman-Police-Call.htm

Dispatcher

Sanford Police Department.

Zimmerman

Hey we've had some break-ins in my neighborhood, and there's a real suspicious guy, uh, it's Retreat View Circle, um, the best address I can give you is 111 Retreat View Circle. This guy looks like he's up to no good, or he's on drugs or something. It's raining and he's just walking around, looking about.

Dispatcher

OK, and this guy is he white, black, or hispanic?

Zimmerman

He looks black.

Dispatcher

Did you see what he was wearing?

Zimmerman

Yeah. A dark hoodie, like a grey hoodie, and either jeans or sweatpants and white tennis shoes. He's here now, he was just staring.

Dispatcher

OK, he's just walking around the area¬...

Zimmerman

looking at all the houses.
Posted by Zhang Fei 2012-04-08 23:15||   2012-04-08 23:15|| Front Page Top

#19 People getting from point A to B don't really take in the sights. And within these cooker cutter condo complexes, there really isn't much to look at. My guess is that Martin was casing the area, was unhappy at being disturbed, and decided to beat the crap out of Zimmerman. While stomping Zimmerman, he saw the gun, reached for it, and turned a fistfight into a fight to the death.
Posted by Zhang Fei 2012-04-08 23:25||   2012-04-08 23:25|| Front Page Top

#20 RandomJD: What was a neighborhood watch guy doing with a loaded gun?

In this instance, Zimmerman was running an errand, not on patrol. Still, neighborhood watches involve night time patrols, and evenings are when criminals come out to play. In addition, neighborhood watch people are looking for trouble, though in the sense of finding and reporting criminals rather than arresting them. If they run into criminals on the job, and the perps are armed or numerous, their lives could be in jeopardy. It would not make sense to have a neighborhood watch without weapons. I've read about neighborhood watches in Third World countries where gun control is pretty strict. They carry fighting sticks or batons in case of attack. The irony is that any neighborhood watch where weapons aren't needed is probably a superfluous neighborhood watch.
Posted by Zhang Fei 2012-04-08 23:34||   2012-04-08 23:34|| Front Page Top

#21 Thanks Zhang. Looks like he might have been 'looking (or staring?) at houses' on his way home. That would mean a few things.
Posted by CrazyFool 2012-04-08 23:50||   2012-04-08 23:50|| Front Page Top

#22 People who are against neighborhood watch people carrying guns are a little naive. Criminals who might hesitate to attack cops have no compunction about attacking civilians. Mayberry was 50 years ago.
Posted by Zhang Fei 2012-04-08 23:58||   2012-04-08 23:58|| Front Page Top

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