In Lebanon, a giant lizard has been roaming the streets of a Beirut suburb for several weeks, eluding all the attempts by the authorities to catch it.
He?s Lebanon?s own Komodo Dragon, or so say the witnesses who have seen him. Komodo Dragons are an endangered species and live in Indonesia. It?s believed that the one living just outside Beirut was brought to Lebanon by a German who lived here and eventually set him free.
About three months ago, one person sighted him, but his tale was dismissed as that of a crazy person. But when pets started disappearing, people started paying attention.
The civil defence has stationed dozens of personnel all over the area, but it lacks the sophisticated equipment needed to catch the lizard without harming it.
Posted by: Baba Yaga ||
09/01/2003 6:22:30 PM ||
Comments ||
Link ||
[3 views]
Top|| File under:
#1
Paging Rod Serling...
Posted by: Fred ||
09/01/2003 19:03 Comments ||
Top||
#2
Obviously Mossad.
Posted by: Matt ||
09/01/2003 19:47 Comments ||
Top||
#3
Aieee! It is Gojira, King of Monsters!
Posted by: Mike ||
09/01/2003 21:24 Comments ||
Top||
Afghan Islamic Press (AIP) reports that the interim Afghan President, Hamid Karzai, has begun negotiations with Taliban officials in several parts of the southeastern province. The negotiations are being conducted by senior government officials, Abd al-Rahman Hotak and provincial governor Hafiz Allah, the Pakistan-based AIP private news service said.
AIP's reliability makes DEBKA at its worst look like a preferred source...
"We have started negotiations because the Karzai government believes in resolving problems through peaceful dialogue," Hotak was quoted as telling the AIP. Hotak made no reference to the current military bombings and deployments.
The gummint being forced to negotiate with the Talibs is one of the Bad Guys' fondest fantasies. I'd suspect that any negotiations are directed toward breaking off a few chunks of the Talibs — though I've been wrong enough times before not to count on that.
Posted by: Fred Pruitt ||
09/01/2003 17:12 ||
Comments ||
Link ||
[2 views]
Top|| File under:
#1
I'd suspect that any negotiations are directed toward breaking off a few chunks of the Talibs
Wouldn't surprise me if negotiations are taking place. Remember that some of the guys we're allied with used to work for the Taliban. The Afghans will take any opportunity to make some extra money by negotiating a ceasefire in exchange for monetary payoffs from the Taliban. Why would the Taliban want a ceasefire? I suspect the Talibs are trying to get some breathing room from the relentless air attacks. Getting new Taliban recruits killed in large numbers hurts future recruiting efforts.
#2
Plus IIRC we were able to separate quite a few of the warlords from the Taliban with suitcases of cash. It's an apparent Afghan custom to accept gifts, with non-existent principles changing accordingly
Posted by: Frank G ||
09/01/2003 18:05 Comments ||
Top||
US special forces and aircraft are engaged in a massive offensive in southeast Afghanistan in a bid to kill or capture senior Taliban leaders. Aljazeeraâs Afghanistan correspondent said a US officer was â100% sureâ Taliban leaders Mulla Omar and Mulla Qahar were both surrounded in the village of Sarsang with about 1000 Taliban fighters. The special forces have joined a major week-long operation against suspected Taliban and al-Qaeda bases in the mountains of Dai Chopan district of Zabul province. Our correspondent counted at least six Chinook helicopters transporting men and equipment into the mountains. Aljazeera.net has learned the Afghan government infantry was ordered to withdraw in anticipation of a huge aerial attack on Sunday night. But B52 bombing proved inaccurate and Afghan troops reported seeing âpiles of dead civilian men, women and children."
Don't forget the puppies and kittens and baby ducks...
At least one US soldier also died on Monday when his parachute failed to open. One Afghan field commander, Sayf Allah, said Taliban troops had unexpectedly mounted an attack behind US and Afghan army lines, killing at least eight Afghan soldiers and slightly wounding General Sayf Allah himself. Sayf Allah confirmed that no Taliban had been captured alive so far, but they had almost certainly suffered casualties.
We'll see. He's been "cornered" before. I have my doubts about the B52s taking out nunneries and the neighbors' dog, unless somebody cross-eyed was calling in the coordinates...
Posted by: Fred Pruitt ||
09/01/2003 17:07 ||
Comments ||
Link ||
[5 views]
Top|| File under:
#1
One can only hope that we have Biker Omar in his version of Waterloo-istan. Heh heh.
Posted by: Alaska Paul ||
09/01/2003 19:00 Comments ||
Top||
#2
Somehow I dont think B-52 bombs leaves dead civilian men, women, and children in neat little 'piles'.
Aljazerra.net is not the most reliable and unbiased news source. Dont forget that according to them it is america's fault that the sun sets at night.
Excerpts from a much longer article...
A revitalized Taliban army is drawing recruits from militant groups in Pakistan, including Al Qaeda loyalists, as it fights an escalating guerrilla war against U.S. forces and their allies across the border in Afghanistan.
We never doubted that a bit...
These fighters are answering the call from Muslim clerics to wage jihad, or holy war, against U.S.-led forces, according to Taliban members and supporters as well as Pakistani militants interviewed on both sides of the border. The Taliban is also exploiting the alienation felt by ethnic Pushtuns in Afghanistan because of continued insecurity, a scarcity of development projects and ongoing U.S. military operations.
"Cause? Effect? They're related? When did that start?"
But even as fighting increases, a relatively moderate element of the Taliban is said to be interested in participating in national elections next June, and discussing a replacement for Mullah Mohammed Omar, the Taliban's fugitive leader.
Trade him in on a dog and shoot the dog...
Afghan authorities have blamed the Taliban for a string of attacks in eastern and southern Afghanistan that have killed more than 60 Afghan civilians, pro-government Muslim clerics, police and soldiers since mid-July. U.S. and Afghan forces say they have killed at least several dozen suspected Taliban fighters in the same period. Despite the presence of thousands of U.S. and other international troops, the Taliban fighters and their allies hope to eventually retake the southern city of Kandahar, once Omar's seat of power, said a local Pakistani commander of Harkat-ul-Mujahedeen, a longtime ally of the Al Qaeda terrorist network.
They're not doing really well with gripping reality...
The commander runs a madrasa, or Koranic school, and says he has crossed into Afghanistan seven times since late 2001, to aid the Taliban's war against U.S.-led forces. In one case, he said with a sly smile, Pakistani soldiers guarding the border saw him and did nothing. In any case, he said, borders are irrelevant for him and like-minded Muslims. "We don't believe in any boundaries or separate countries for Muslims â there is only one Islam," he said. "These people are going [to Afghanistan] because there is a fatwa from religious scholars that says there is a jihad against Americans there. The fact is that now the situation in the Pushtun belt is very critical compared with other parts of Afghanistan. Now all Pushtuns are reuniting against the Americans."
"All of them we can round up, at least..."
Local residents say other Pakistan-based militant groups crossing into Afghanistan include the Al Badr militia and Hizbul Moujahedeen. The latter is an old ally of Afghan warlord Gulbuddin Hekmatyar. Harkat, Hizbul Moujahedeen and Al Badr are among the main militant groups fighting in the Indian-controlled part of Kashmir. But under U.S. pressure Pakistan has curbed those infiltrations, leaving militants ripe for recruitment to the pro-Taliban jihad in Afghanistan. Harkat was one of the founders of Osama bin Laden's "International Islamic Front for Jihad Against Jews and Crusaders," announced at a news conference near the Afghan frontier town of Khost in 1998.
Yes, they did declare war on us, didn't they?
Taliban member Nadir Khan recently sat in the back seat of a reporter's car not far from a U.S. base and described how he and other Taliban members move back and forth across the Pakistani border, about an hour's drive away. They carry out attacks and return to their bases in Pakistan, he said. He said he attended a meeting of Taliban commanders in Peshawar, northwestern Pakistan's largest city, on July 12. "It was like a Cabinet meeting," he said. "The people I met in Peshawar even had guns with them," Khan said. "Pakistan is not stopping all these meetings because Pakistan does not like the government in Afghanistan. And they will work hard to destroy the government here."
Since they regard Afghanistan as their western provinces...
The Afghan government has provided Pakistani and U.S. authorities with a list of Taliban officials and where they live in Pakistan. Kabul's list of Taliban leaders said to be in Pakistan includes Abdul Kabir, the former Taliban deputy prime minister of Afghanistan who is No. 3 in the Taliban hierarchy. Afghan authorities say Kabir lives in Kohat, a Peshawar suburb that also is home to a Pakistani army base. A resident said Kabir was a regular visitor to Peshawar's busy Khyber Bazaar and was seen there as recently as mid-August. But Kabir is careful not to give out a phone number or address, the resident said. A source in Quetta said the Taliban's high-profile former consul general in Peshawar, Maulvi Najibullah, is now raising funds in Quetta for the guerrilla war. Maj. Gen. Rashid Qureshi, an aide to Musharraf, denied that the Taliban was operating from Pakistan, and said his government has asked Kabul and the U.S.-led coalition for any information that has led them to conclude otherwise.
"Nope. Nope. Can't find 'em without an address and phone number..."
Qureshi also said it would be impossible for provincial governments in Pakistan's border areas to defy the federal government and aid the Afghan insurgency.
That's what we think, too...
Posted by: Fred Pruitt ||
09/01/2003 01:26 ||
Comments ||
Link ||
[3 views]
Top|| File under:
#1
Maybe the CIA should make use of India's underworld connections, or the Royalist Pashtuns in the area to do some damage to these guys.
Posted by: Paul Moloney ||
09/01/2003 1:30 Comments ||
Top||
#2
Maj. Gen. Rashid Qureshi, an aide to Musharraf, denied that the Taliban was operating from Pakistan, and said his government has asked Kabul and the U.S.-led coalition for any information that has led them to conclude otherwise.
"Tell me where my leaks are coming from, and I'll take care of them - permanently."
The government of Afghanistan has appreciated arrest of as many as 26 suspected Taliban by the Pakistani authorities at Pak-Afghan border when they were planning to attack on US and Afghan military interests in Spin Boldak. âHailing the efforts of Pakistani authorities, the Afghan authorities have demanded handing over of these fugitives to them,â a highly placed source revealed to here Sunday.
"Big Mahmoud would like to have a talk with them boyz..."
Yesterday, Pakistani authorities have arrested these fugitives after receiving an intelligence information that they were preparing to cross in Afghanistan for attacking the interests of the US and Afghan military. The Afghan authorities while demanding the handing over of the arrested fugitives have referred an agreement signed between the two governments of handing over each other the terrorists whenever arrested in the two countries. The Pakistani authorities had also confiscated huge quantity of arms from these suspected Talibanâand shifted them to Quetta for investigation.
Posted by: Fred Pruitt ||
09/01/2003 00:22 ||
Comments ||
Link ||
[2 views]
Top|| File under:
Political analyst Dawoud al-Shiryan said it was clear from the age profile of dozens of Saudis wanted, arrested or shot in a series of skirmishes between militants and police in recent months that this was a new generation of mujahidin. "The problem is the new generation. People in their 20s, most of them born after the Iranian revolution. The security solution is not enough. These people are willing to die, and we have a lot of jobless and economic problems. When Saudis go to Iraq it's partly because of these pressures. You cannot take away 30 years of something with a few sermons. It needs a major plan in culture, media and education."
I thought it was the Afghan-era guys who were going onto Iraq from Soddy Arabia? Make up your minds...
London-based dissident Muhammad al-Massari said Saudi police, long sidelined by the powerful morality police in this strict Islamic state, were ill-equipped to confront an insurgency. "The training is miserable and the psychological preparation is very bad. A big percentage of the police will be pro-bin Ladin," Massari said.
"So we might as well just give up. To hell with it."
"The militants are not willing to be taken into custody without a fight. Most of the fights have been bloody and the government does not announce every fight," he added.
Posted by: Fred Pruitt ||
09/01/2003 17:31 ||
Comments ||
Link ||
[6 views]
Top|| File under:
#1
So the Bushies are now exposed for cavorting with the Saudis--and that's a surprise?
Posted by: Not Mike Moore ||
09/02/2003 5:09 Comments ||
Top||
King Fahd's attempt to stamp out what he calls extremist preaching from his Saudi kingdom's mosques could backfire, warned clerics and analysts.
"No, no! Better to just leave them alone. They don't kill that many people..."
Critics say the clampdown will only serve to drive young Saudi men to Iraq to fight in a holy war against the American "satan".
"Yasss... Better to keep them here, where they'll stay out of trouble. You know how excitable those Americans are..."
King Fahd's warning for clerics to stop preaching militant messages was seen as a response to accusations last week by US Deputy Secretary of State Richard Armitage. Armitage said that some of those attacking occupying forces in Iraq were coming into the country from neighbouring Saudi Arabia. However, in an official statement on Sunday, Saudi Arabia said there was no proof yet that any of its citizens were involved in the bombing in the Iraqi Shiite holy city of Najaf. The statement challenged those who made the accusations to deliver concrete proof.
"And then we'll deny it's proof..."
Hours earlier, the leading cleric Mohsen al-Awajy said: "Most youth think the only safe road is to go to Iraq. They are trapped between the international campaign against terrorism and this campaign at home. The only safe haven for them is to go to Iraq. We are hearing stories of families who get mobile phone messages from their sons saying they're going to Iraq."
It's beyond possibility, of course, that they could consider giving up killing people and blowing things up, maybe even get jobs...
Awajy said thousands of Saudi veterans of the war against the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan in the 1980s, who at that time were supported by the government, were now being targeted. The Saudi crackdown intensified after the May bombings in Riyadh, which killed 35 people, including nine Americans. Authorities have arrested more than 200 militants believed linked to al-Qaida. .
Posted by: Fred Pruitt ||
09/01/2003 17:26 ||
Comments ||
Link ||
[9 views]
Top|| File under:
#1
Think like this: polarization is good because it makes chosing between friends and enemies much easier. I guess that makes too much sense for the sand-hoppers.
#2
Think like this: polarization is good because it makes chosing between friends and enemies much easier. I guess that makes too much sense for the sand-hoppers.
#3
get jobs? Soddy blood ticks working for a living? Where are the Paki/Filipino/Indian laborers? Why should the Soddys get their hands dirty?
Posted by: Frank G ||
09/01/2003 18:58 Comments ||
Top||
#4
the leading cleric Mohsen al-Awajy said: "Most youth think the only safe road is to go to Iraq. They are trapped between the international campaign against terrorism and this campaign at home. The only safe haven for them is to go to Iraq. We are hearing stories of families who get mobile phone messages from their sons saying they're going to Iraq."
[digesting...............................ding!]
He's saying that the youth HAVE to do the jihadi thing. No choice. Nope. Gotta do it. And, given this moonbat decision, the only question in this moron's tiny little mind is where do they fight it out. And he concludes they are better off facing the American SF, Army, AF, and Marines rather than the ill-trained, witless, sympathetic Saudi police? Uh, am I missing something here? Naw, guess not. He and his sick ilk take these fucked-up kids provided by the Wahabbist Saudi Education system, convince them to do their duty to Islam Friday after Friday after Friday with virulent spew, and the little fuckwads respond as per the programming - and now he's lamenting this obvious result? Only an Islamic Cleric, a "leading" (is that funny, or what?) one, could be so disingenuous, self-serving, and asinine.
Time to ambush 'em at the border. Don't we have a few million Claymores laying around and some trip wire? I also picture using the Blackhawks creatively... rising up from the waddis to cut them down 10 or 20 at a time... and use the bodies to create the missing fence / wall that these desert shitholes always neglect. Or just dust the border with some very unhappy chemicals and post signs... "If you can read this, you're dead."
Saudis, pfeh. Islamic clerics, squirrels. Saudi Islamic clerics, moonbat city. Leading Saudi Islamic clerics, alien smacktards.
#5
There are drugged out dudes living in their parents basements that can demonstrate more initiative, creativity and personal responsibility than these Saudi 20 year olds. Can't we assmeble whatever is left of the Grateful Dead and have them tour around Saudi Arabia to give these shiftless dudes something to occupy their time.
Posted by: Super Hose ||
09/01/2003 21:05 Comments ||
Top||
#6
.com your killing me man. Motel 6 is planning on expanding into the magic kindom soon. They want to take advantage of the low gas prices and all the auto tourist that will flock there. That will efectively use up all the foreign workers not already employed buy the mufties. The young guys can then go to work building, creating and thinking great thoughts.
The British government was reported Friday to be threatening "to go it alone" in banning not only the military wing but the entire organization of Hamas if it does not receive support from its European Union partners.
Why did I suspect this might be the case?
Foreign Secretary Jack Straw was holding talks Friday with his Italian counterpart ahead of next weeks meeting of EU Foreign Ministers in Italy, when he is expected to raise the issue again. Straw failed in his previous attempt to outlaw the entire Hamas organization and freeze its assets when Greece held the ERU presidency in June. But according to the Jewish Chronicle, the foreign secretary was warning that Britain might ban the political wing of the Palestinian organization even if the EU continues to reject it. The British government outraged Muslims on Thursday after the Charity Commission announced that it was freezing the assets of the UKs biggest Palestinian charity, Interpal, following a request from the US and Israel.
Outraged them, huh? Golly. And they're usually so reasonable...
Interpal chairman, Ibrahim Hewitt, a British Muslim convert, criticized the decision as part of a wider campaign to deprive Palestinians of any humanitarian aid.
"Paleostinian children will die unless we continue providing them with essential arms and ammunition..."
In his previous post as Home Secretary, Straw proscribed Hamas military wing, the Izz al-Din al-Qassam brigade as a `terrorist` group in Britain in 2000 and also made separate proposals for the EU to enable the freezing of assets and other measures. In recent remarks, he has resorted to describe the `other part` of Hamas as "its so-called charitable and political wing" and claimed that "these days there is an increasing consensus that both organizations are, in fact, one."
One picks the targets, the other blows them. One buys the arms and ammunition, the other uses them...
Posted by: Fred Pruitt ||
09/01/2003 01:05 ||
Comments ||
Link ||
[3 views]
Top|| File under:
#2
Wouldn't be the first time England stood alone against evil in Europe.
Posted by: Hal ||
09/01/2003 7:04 Comments ||
Top||
#3
This is excellent news, for a number of reasons, including: kudos to Blair's government for showing backbone (again) in the nation's interests re the middle east, and openly adopting a pro-Israel policy; kudos too for showing a reluctance to toe the EU line as regards "consensus" foreign policy (this gives encouragement that the government will not be flexible when it comes to negotiating (or, hopefully, not ratifying) the final version of the EU constitution; this also demonstrates to all nations in the EU that at least one other isn't going to allow her foreign policy to be dictated by Brussels, and that it's still up to them to decide for themselves - EU membership does not remove nations' individual responsibility. This should give encouragement to anti-idiotarian and anti-federalist voices in other countries in Europe.
#4
So Blair's doing something right, other than the WoT - good! I know he's a die-hard liberal, but in the WoT, Merkins see him as a brave and unapologetic ally - and thus is Britain. We / I find it odd and disquieting how the UK press seems to relish skewering him. I appreciate your reminders and clarifications about his domestic liberalism, though it seems incongruous.
And it is very good to know that the looming EU disaster isn't a done deal from the British perspective. Thx, bulldog! Please help us be better informed of how it affects the UK and what people really think. I don't trust any of the official news outlets or polls to tell me other than what their editorial agendas contain. I consider your posts to be an excellent bullshit detector! Thx, again! ;->
#5
I would still rather that Hamas charities in the US and the UK ceased operations due to total lack of support. Unfortunately, that isn't going to happen as some bozos think that spending an hour with Castro is an uplifting experience.
Posted by: Super Hose ||
09/01/2003 10:05 Comments ||
Top||
#6
So you saw that Beeb suck-fest, too. Disgusting. Does the BBC issue kneepads to all it's "reporters"?
A Marist Brothers missionary in the Solomon Islands says the presence of the international intervention force is showing real progress in restoring law and order to the troubled pacific nation. Brother Roger Burke is based at Tenaru, about 20 kilometres north of the capital Honiara. He says villagers are excited by the promise of peace, even though they are unsure when it will return to the islands. "The big question here is what's going to happen when all the forces leave and also I think that it's felt the forces will be here for a much longer time than we first imagined... for a while it was thought they'd be here for a few weeks, a few months, a year, but now they're talking in terms of five [years] or even longer," he said.
A lot of that probably depends on whether they take Harold with them when they leave...
Posted by: Fred Pruitt ||
09/01/2003 00:13 ||
Comments ||
Link ||
[3 views]
Top|| File under:
#1
Another victory for unilateral action in a troubled corner of the world. A high-five to the Aussies!
Posted by: Steve White ||
09/01/2003 1:17 Comments ||
Top||
#2
Right on, Steve. I envy them the closed-loop nature of the problem in the Solomons - and the fact that the populace actually seems to appreciate the return of peace - how novel! There's no question they handled it decisively and with their usual class - and unilaterally, as you so rightly highlighted. Whatever else they need to do, they will, I'm sure. Kudos!
Eleven years after France signed the Maastricht Treaty it has decided it has had enough of its obligations. The straitjacket of the stability pact, which paved the way for the euro, is bound too tight for an economic downturn, it has told Brussels. So instead of suffering for the common European good, President Chirac has decided to bust out, to let his deficits soar and try to spend his way to an economic recovery.
It is hard to know what lesson Sweden is to draw from this as it prepares to vote on Sept 14 on whether to start using the euro. Maybe the same one Britain & Denmark are going to draw? Is every country that uses the single currency allowed to behave like this? Nope, just the special ones...
By telling the EU where to go on deficits, M Chirac is telling his citizens that France?s problems and recovery are now their own to deal with. No foreign entity can be held responsible - unless you count America, whose economic recovery is being prayed for fervently by the French. Still thinking that "Let?s Fall In Love Again" campaign is working? (fits of uncontrollable laughter)
M Chirac has also told his government that nothing must affect promised increases to the defence budget. He believes the French military must at least be equal to the British if France is to be a credible global power. Let?s build tanks with gears other than "reverse"!
Germany and Italy are having similar problems to France in meeting the stability pact criteria and are also applying unilateral remedies to the economic downturn. But what about "European solidarity"?
Which leaves those countries still mulling over joining the euro with a new question. Which kind of flexibility is better? The flexibility of staying out or the flexibility of joining and then ignoring the rules? Well, we all see what the French choice is....
Posted by: Baba Yaga ||
09/01/2003 1:52:40 PM ||
Comments ||
Link ||
[2 views]
Top|| File under:
#3
I read this earlier today and was really quit perplexed. How could you go into a monetary system where a country so used to "doing it their way" and have any idea as to what the outcome will be. Hey, sez Fritz, the Frogs are spending my euro into junk status." "No worry sez Perot, "We will make good on our debt, that you can be assured." The band strikes up the French national anthem (couldn't spell it), And all stand and salute, the march begins and we have a good stiff drink. "Yes" they shout, "today we are all French" and every nation, so blessed, blinks twice and down that road they go!
#4
That would be spelled La Marseillaise you pinhead--and if you don't think the US fears a true EU--just read the posts here and learn the demographics of a united Europe--the US will be eclipsed if their experiment works--God knows they have a higher standard of living and more vacation than American wage slaves do
Posted by: Not Mike Moore ||
09/02/2003 5:23 Comments ||
Top||
Sonofagun. Guess they do learn from their mistakes.
MOSCOW (AP) - Russiaâs defense minister blamed the sinking of a derelict nuclear submarine on a national trait of carelessness and ordered a temporary halt Sunday to the towing of decommissioned subs. The announcement raised the prospect of further delays in efforts to dispose of more than 100 rotting ships and their reactors, which have been a concern to environmentalists. At least til they figure out how to do it properly.
The K-159 submarine sank Saturday in the Barents Sea as it was being towed to an Arctic scrapyard where its reactors were to be removed and dismantled. Nine of the 10 sailors aboard died.
``There were definitely elements of this frivolous Russian reliance on chance, that everything will work out,ââ Defense Minister Sergei Ivanov said from a ship monitoring search operations. âFrivolous Russian reliance on chanceâ? Just what I want to see in a military. Helps to explain Chechyna and other things.
The sub went down in a storm, apparently after rough seas ripped off the pontoons that had been attached to it for towing. Russian news reports cited unidentified Navy sources as suggesting the pontoons had been placed improperly and Ivanov said the submarine went to the bottom with its conning tower open. ``This confirms yet again the simple truth that all instructions and orders must be taken seriously,ââ he said. Like not leaving the conning tower hatch open when being towed.
Later, after meeting with surviving sailor Lt. Maxim Tsibulsky and families of the dead sailors, he said ``I have made a decision to ban the towing of such submarines to scrapyards in such a manner until further notice,ââ according to the Interfax news agency.
However, Ivanov also said the men aboard the K-159 were not to blame. ``There are no complaints against you ... you were only a witness,ââ Ivanov said in a televised meeting with Tsibulsky, who lay in a Northern Fleet hospital bed appearing healthy but exhausted. He said the submarine will be raised from the 780-foot seabed but preparations could take several months. Bigger pontoons. Stronger chains.
Russia has decommissioned about 189 nuclear-powered submarines over the past 15 years but officials say 126 of those still are at docks with nuclear fuel in their reactors, creating international concern about leaks and the possibility of nuclear materials being obtained by other nations or terrorists. It will cost an estimated $3.9 billion to scrap all the subs, Russian officials say. Yet last year, the Russian government budgeted just $70 million for improving nuclear safety in the country as a whole.
Ivanovâs apparent frustration with procedure violations in the towing echoed the reaction of President Vladimir Putin, who said Saturday ``the sea demands discipline.ââ Vlad should require every sailor in the Russian navy to read "The Cruel Sea."
The shipâs reactors were reportedly shut down when it was taken out of service. The submarine sank a few miles northwest of Kildin Island off the Kola Peninsula, where Russia abuts Norway and Finland. That is the same general area where the nuclear submarine Kursk sank almost exactly three years ago.
Posted by: Steve White ||
09/01/2003 1:26:36 AM ||
Comments ||
Link ||
[2 views]
Top|| File under:
#1
close the screen door next time
Posted by: Frank G ||
09/01/2003 10:13 Comments ||
Top||
#2
I'm always reminded of this quote whenever I see this kind of farce out of the former Soviet Union. "The government pretends to pay us and we pretend to work". Utopia, whats not to like.
#3
Could one of you all that's in the know chip in and inform me why a towed sub needs 10 sailors on board? The only thing my landlubber brain can think of is they're there to secure tow lines and, later, land lines.
Posted by: Dar ||
09/01/2003 13:03 Comments ||
Top||
#4
Steve White---Thanks for mentioning "The Cruel Sea" by Nicholas Montserrat. That was one great book! I remember one part about the things one learned on convoy duty: stare for hours in thick fog, learned to endure incredible fatigue for hours on end, and learned to die without wasting other people's time (or something like that).
Posted by: Alaska Paul ||
09/01/2003 14:24 Comments ||
Top||
#5
Dar, The crew onboard is necessary to keep the generators running, steering, trimming the ballast tanks along with deck duties (lines, etc.) Also one is needed to pour the Vodka and coordinate the toasts to the mighty Peoples Navy.
#6
Suba are hard to handle in the surfaced condition even in decent weather becasue the have no keel ( a heavy weight which keeps the center of gravity low and prevents rolling over.) Still it should be hard to actually sink a sub that is ballasted effectively. Bull Halsey learned how important ballasting was during a WWII typhoon that sprung up unexpectedly.
Posted by: Super Hose ||
09/01/2003 17:02 Comments ||
Top||
#7
Dar, the crew would be running the diesel-generator for onboard power, operating bilge pumps (old boats, many leaks), making sure running lights kept on, handling lines, lotsa stuff.
A Pakistani official claimed that the Taliban was a spent force and that rumours of a reorganisation in his country were baseless.
"Nope. Nope. Never happened..."
Foreign office spokesman Masud Khan told a press briefing on Monday the governments assessment was that only Taliban "splinter groups" remained, and that Islamabad was making sure they were not allowed to regroup.
Then his lips fell off and he turned into a pillar of salt...
Afghan officials had recently claimed Taliban loyalists were regrouping on the Pakistani side of the porous 2400km border and organising attacks inside Afghanistan. Khan said the issue came under discussion when Foreign Minister, Khurshid Mahmud Kasuri, visited Kabul last month and held detailed talks with Afghan Foreign Minister, Abdullah Abdullah. "The general sense was that the right thing to do was to share intellignece and information," Khan added.
Posted by: Fred Pruitt ||
09/01/2003 17:16 ||
Comments ||
Link ||
[2 views]
Top|| File under:
Police charged four people Monday with terrorist acts in India's financial hub, accusing them of setting off three bombs that killed 55 people to avenge the deaths of Muslims in religious riots last year. The suspects — including a married couple and their teenage daughter — were arrested under India's tough anti-terrorism law and could face the death penalty.
Why not? 55 other people got it, and they didn't even do anything...
They are accused in connection with twin car bombings last week in Bombay that killed 52 people and wounded 150 and a July 28 blast on a bus that killed three and wounded 31. Arshad Ansari, 26, Fahimida Syed Mohammed Hanif, 37, and her 18-year-old daughter, Farheen Rahim, appeared in court in Bombay — the women with scarves covering their heads. Hanif's husband, Syed Rahim, 45, is hospitalized with high blood pressure.
That has something to do with the scarves over their heads? Or with their appearance in court? Or is he the fourth person charged? (Another Great Moment in Journalism™)...
Police say they believe Hanif planted the bomb on the bus, and that the group placed a bomb at an industrial enclave outside Bombay but it failed to explode. They said the four belong to a local unit of the Pakistan-based Lashkar-e-Taiba.
"They call themselves the Gujarat Muslim Revenge Force," Bombay Police Commissioner Ranjit Sharma told reporters. Although many Muslims died in last week's blasts, the government believes the attacks could be linked to religious riots in western Gujarat state last year. After the riots, some of the Muslim attackers went to the United Arab Emirates and "met people there," said Chhagan Bhujbal, the state's deputy chief minister. "This is a big conspiracy. There cannot be only two or four people behind it."
Well, there could be. But there probably aren't. Wonder where those explosives might have come from...
In a search of the family's residence, police said, they found bomb-making materials including 205 gelatin sticks, 20 detonators, 12 timers, wires and soldering machines.
That's some pretty spicy chapatis the little woman was whupping up...
"They have been charged ... for striking terror in the minds of people and committing terrorist acts," prosecutor Rohini Salian said.
Posted by: Fred Pruitt ||
09/01/2003 16:41 ||
Comments ||
Link ||
[2 views]
Top|| File under:
Close on the heels of the killing of two Jaish-e-Mohammed militants on Saturday night, the special cell of the Delhi Police has arrested two militants of the same outfit from Sikandarabad in Bulandshahar district. According to joint commissioner of police (special cell) Neeraj Kumar, the two Pakistan-trained militants,Raees Ahmed and Atiq Ahmed, were brothers of Habibullah, who was killed in Saturday nightâs encounter at the Millennium Park in south Delhi. The police seized 23 electronic detonators, three remote-control devices and Rs 85,000 cash from them. They have been brought to Delhi and cases registered against them under Pota. The raid on the Sikandarabad militant hideout was conducted on the basis of the disclosures made by Noor Mohammed, who was one of the three arrested with a huge cache of arms and ammunition from Sadar Bazaar area on Saturday evening. The consignment was to be delivered to the two Jaish militants, Habibullah and Zahoor Ahmed, who were killed in the encounter at the park near Nizamuddin bridge.
Posted by: Paul Moloney ||
09/01/2003 1:38:21 AM ||
Comments ||
Link ||
[2 views]
Top|| File under:
Pakistan Army has been investigating the suspected engagement of three Army officers with extremist organization. âThree Army officers ranking less than Lieutenant Colonels are under investigation on their engagements with extremist organizations. But the investigation mechanism absolutely belong to Pakistan Army and no foreign intelligence agency including the US FBI has any connection to such investigation,â Major General Shaukat Sultan told to here Sunday while talking on telephone. He said that these officers have violated the Army discipline âand we have our own mechanism to investigate and take action against any violation of the discipline and they are going through the same.â
Must have been really foaming at the mouth to be investigated in Pakistan...
The General however denied to give any information about the preliminary investigation and also denied to tell about the dates when these officers were booked. âThis is Pakistan Armyâs internal matter of administrationâis hard to offer any comment.â
Meaning we'll probably never hear about it again, unless they need to trot out some scapegoats...
When his attention was drawn to a report appeared in a section of press suggesting arrest of 12 officers of Pakistan Armyâunder investigation of having secret linkages with religious extremist organization, he said, âsuch reports are concocted and baselessânumber is only three and officers are holding a rank lower than Lt. Colonel.â
"Not senior members of ISI or members of the general staff. Nope. Nope."
âSuch investigation is not abnormal and is just a routine matter in connection to the discipline of Pakistan Army,â he said.
Posted by: Fred Pruitt ||
09/01/2003 00:20 ||
Comments ||
Link ||
[2 views]
Top|| File under:
#1
I wonder if this is connected with the Asia Times story the other day that reported the FBI had identified a Lieutenant-Colonel Khalid Abbassi and a Major Atta has having ties to 'extremist groups'.
Posted by: Paul Moloney ||
09/01/2003 1:26 Comments ||
Top||
#2
Oops! Forgot to get their commander's permission (acquired by a suitable bribe), so now they're in deep doo-doo. Besides, they joined the "wrong" group - they were told to join xxx, but joined yyy by mistake. Now Ahmed is three members short of his required quota for the third quarter.
Posted by: Old Patriot ||
09/01/2003 12:55 Comments ||
Top||
Security forces in Iraq have arrested two men after finding two cars laden with bombs amid warnings from clerics that Saddam Hussein loyalists or Al Qaeda members will strike over the next two days, officals said Monday. The men were arrested after cars they were travelling in were found loaded with explosives, according to security spokesmen outside the Masjed al-Kufah mosque in the city of Kufah, some 180 kilometres south of Baghdad. "We found the seats (in one car stopped Sunday) were not well designed and had new covers. This raised our suspicion and we searched the seats and found them filled with bombs," a policemen who requested anonymity told AFP. "Yesterday we seized the same kind of car filled with bombs," he said, adding that that car was driven by two men from Yemen.
"See? See? They ain't Soddies! Toldja so! Ain't no damn Soddies boomin' Iraq...
The two men detained Monday were from the southern Iraqi city of Basra, he said. The remains of Shiite cleric Ayatollah Mohammad Baqer al-Hakim, murdered in a huge car bomb in nearby Najaf Friday that killed at least 82 others, were due to arrive later Monday.
All they found of the poor guy was one hand and his nose. Were they gonna blow that up, too?
Inside the mosque, clerics were calling on loudspeakers for people to "open their eyes" because "Saddam Hussein's followers and Al Qaeda will try today or tomorrow to make large explosions" in Kufah. Hakim's remains are expected to be kept here until Tuesday at the Masjed al-Kufah mosque, considered the oldest outside Saudi Arabia. He was set to be buried in nearby Najaf, 180 kilometres (110 miles) south of the capital. Tens of thousands of mourners turned out in Baghdad on Sunday for the start of Hakim's three-day funeral procession.
Posted by: Fred Pruitt ||
09/01/2003 19:03 ||
Comments ||
Link ||
[5 views]
Top|| File under:
#1
Would it be an inhumane punishment to force these guys to drive out into the desert with the timer ticking?
Posted by: Super Hose ||
09/01/2003 21:13 Comments ||
Top||
A new audiotape Monday purporting to carry the voice of Saddam Hussein denied involvement in the bombing in Najaf that killed 125 people, including a cherished Shiite leader.
I actually don't think it was. If it wasn't Moqtada it was the Qaeda bunch, and the more I think about it, the more I believe it was them. They've got even more to gain from stirring the pot than Moqtada — though it's convenient one of his rivals is dead. Sistani had better keep a close eye on his car...
The message was broadcast after the U.S.-picked Iraqi Governing Council named a new Cabinet in a step toward reclaiming some powers from the American occupation administration. Using Saddam's well-known rhetorical style, the voice urged the Iraqi people not to believe those who blamed the ousted dictator and his followers for Friday's attack on the Imam Ali Shrine in Najaf that killed Ayatollah Mohammad Baqir al-Hakim. "Many of you may have heard the snakes hissing, the servants of the invaders, occupiers, infidels, and how they have managed to accuse the followers of Saddam Hussein of responsibility for the attack on al-Hakim without any evidence," said the tape, which was broadcast by the Qatar-based Al-Jazeera satellite television station. "They rushed to accuse before investigating," the voice said. While he denied any role in the Najaf bombing, he made no mention of the Jordanian Embassy bombing on Aug. 7 or the U.N. headquarters attack 12 days later, which investigators suspect may have also been committed by Saddam's followers.
Or by Qaeda buttinskies, or a combination of the two...
Posted by: Fred Pruitt ||
09/01/2003 16:28 ||
Comments ||
Link ||
[3 views]
Top|| File under:
#1
The Shias are really, really pissed. I saw in the dead-tree version of the Jackson Florida paper today that they were demanding that the FBI step in and take over the investigation.
#2
I think Sadaam will stick to shooting at the coalition until after the "return." Then he can commence killing and torturing Shia and Khurds as a leisure activity.
Posted by: Super Hose ||
09/01/2003 17:15 Comments ||
Top||
#3
rather than the FBI taking over, the Shias should have asked the LA Police
EFL
BAGHDAD, Aug. 31 -- The U.S. military will delay transferring authority in southern Iraq from the Marines to a Polish-led international force because of the car bombing at a mosque in Najaf, a U.S. commander said today. "To leave in the middle of this crisis, the message that sends to the people of Najaf is that we are abandoning them in a time of tragedy and crisis," said Lt. Col. Chris Woodbridge, who commands the 1st Battalion, 7th Marines, in the Shiite holy city.
Woodbridge said he received the orders from U.S. Central Command the day after the blast, which killed at least 95 people and occurred just as Friday prayers ended at the mosque. The unit will now stay until at least Sept. 10, and could be in Iraq for several weeks after that, the commander said. The orders also affect transfer plans for the 1st Battalion, 4th Marines, which is stationed in Hilla, Woodbridge said.
The Polish troops, along with Spanish forces, have conducted joint patrols with the Marines in the south in anticipation of the new arrangement. But U.S. commanders now appear reluctant to hand over responsibility because of the insecurity in the area. "We donât want to leave the Spanish holding the bag," Woodbridge said.
The bombing in Najaf, in the Shiite-dominated south that was considered relatively peaceful shortly after major combat ended, underscored that no part of the country is immune to violence.
Troops from more than 20 countries had planned to take over combat and peacekeeping duties for 13,000 Marines on Wednesday. The deployment pledges were made this spring by Spain, Poland, Denmark, Bulgaria, Italy, the Netherlands and Ukraine. The international forces will include 8,500 soldiers from Poland, which will lead the division and also command a brigade. The Spanish and Ukrainians will command the two other brigades.
In an interview Friday, Lt. Gen. Ricardo Sanchez, the top commander of ground forces in Iraq, said the proposed arrival of international troops would significantly help counter anti-American sentiment and assist intelligence-gathering by improving the relationship between military forces and Iraqi citizens. "If we commit U.S. forces alone, then we would continue to feed the perception that Americans are the occupiers in Iraq. Thatâs not what we are, thatâs not what our objective is, and we want to make sure that the people of Iraq understand that the world community is behind them," Sanchez said in his office at the Presidential Palace.
Sanchez, who commanded NATO troops in Kosovo, acknowledged that the command structure in Iraq would present new difficulties. "The challenges we face here are a little bit different given that we have 15 different countries underneath one division." The main language would be English, and while some units have interpreters who speak Arabic, "there may have to be double translations," Sanchez said. Iâm sure the Poles are disappointed but I understand the reasoning.
Posted by: Steve White ||
09/01/2003 1:37:55 AM ||
Comments ||
Link ||
[2 views]
Top|| File under:
#1
we want to make sure that the people of Iraq understand that the world community is behind them
Won't make a bit of difference to al-qaeda though.
Posted by: Rafael ||
09/01/2003 3:41 Comments ||
Top||
#2
I am hopeful that some very public trials can be arranged for the perpetrators. I don't think that the Shia will be sympathetic to the Saudi proponets of Iraqi freedom through killing Shia clerics.
Posted by: Super Hose ||
09/01/2003 10:15 Comments ||
Top||
#3
I think it's only polite to call the exterminator and steam-clean the carpets before leaving.
As for trials, you can bet that the Shia will demand their own brand of justice via Sharia Law be applied. This is going to be automatic - and sad, IMHO. A Sharia-styled Old West lynching / beheading. Sigh.
As for the Saudis, it is time to end the follies and pretense. They are Dickhead & Daddy Warbucks Central and hostile territory. Sooner or later, we will be openly fighting the Saudis. It might be the current regime - or the remnants after the Royal Exodus to cuckooland.
#4
You would think eventually that Kuiatt, Iraq and other places would notice that the anti-American militants that operate on Saudi funds mostly kill Moslems.
Posted by: Super Hose ||
09/01/2003 14:21 Comments ||
Top||
#5
But SH,you don't really think they will take responability for thier own peoples action.Do you not know it is all the fault of the evil Merkins/Zionist Cabal.
#6
I'm sure that the Americans will be blamed on the corner of "Arab Street" and "Jihad Lane," but I am optimistic or naive about how much love there is for AQ on the main street of Najaf. I still remember the reception given to Al J reporters by the Iraqi ex-patriots in Ann Arbor, Michigan.
Posted by: Super Hose ||
09/01/2003 17:11 Comments ||
Top||
Via Drudge:
Loudmouth, free-spending Saudis got a little unexpected attention...
Two Saudis arrested after the Najaf attack in Iraq that killed leading Shiite cleric Mohammad Baqer al-Hakim were picked up after sending an e-mail saying "mission accomplished: the dog is dead", The Times reported today quoting a source close to the Iraqi inquiry. The men were grabbed by a crowd and taken to the nearest police station after being seen sending the e-mail from an Internet cafe, the source said. Iâm surprised the Soddies werenât torn to pieces on the spot...good work on the part of the crowd, they had evey right to be angry and yet they saved the Dire Revenge⢠for the police.
The two suspects apparently attracted the attention of the son of the cafe owner after having "offered a larger than usual sum of money to use a computer", the British daily said. It was then that the son saw the men send a message saying "mission accomplished: the dog is dead". Grabbed by an angry crowd of Shiite Muslims, the two men "admitted they were Saudi Wahhabis working for al-Qaeda", Osama bin Ladenâs terrorist network, the source was quoted as saying.Iraqi police said yesterday at least two Saudis were among 19 people detained in connection with the car bombing in Najaf.
Posted by: seafarious ||
09/01/2003 12:46:35 AM ||
Comments ||
Link ||
[4 views]
Top|| File under:
#1
The quality of al-Qaeda recruits has gone down,hasn't it?The fact is,you need training to become a proper terrorist.With the camps in Afghanistan closed down,it's no longer an option.So now al-Qaeda is overextending its reach in Iraq.
Posted by: El Id ||
09/01/2003 7:21 Comments ||
Top||
#2
Saw the Saudi ambastard(ah,excuse me ambassader)saying they wanted proof Saudi citezens involved(read following article)hope they rub the bald-headed geek's nose in it long and hard.
#3
We'll be out of Iraq faster than anyone thinks. The hostility against the Imperialist U.S. Occupiers⢠is being quickly replaced by hostility toward Arab A-holes coming in to cause trouble. Hmmm, Iraq as an ally against terrorism. Who woulda thunk it ?
#4
That's what happens when you rely on suicide bombers. Your operatives can only do one successful mission, then you have to rely on their intellectually challenged cousins who have to stop and think a little when you ask them their names.
I'm just heartened that the people turned them over instead of getting some street justice. (Not that I would have blamed them if they did.)
Posted by: Baba Yaga ||
09/01/2003 12:29 Comments ||
Top||
#5
This would be a good story for the BBC to follow up on. Like what mosque did these mules study at, who was their Iman, Does their father/brother/uncle/cousin have any connection with whatever? Who paid them? Who recieved the email? How did they get into the country and who did they stay with? The BBC can do it without sexing it up!
#6
I hope someone was astute enough to get the email address they sent the message to, along with the router numbers. I'd be paying a surprise visit to some ISP somewhere, looking for more information about a certain "client".
Unfortunately, if they were smart, they probably used one of the free email servers, such as Yahoo, Hotmail, or Juno. Still, there are possibilities... It's tedious, but I'm sure Fred can tell you, every computer attached to the Internet has a unique router number, and can be traced, at least electronically. Enough "sniffs" and you can locate the general area where the traffic is coming from, perhaps even the specific address that's sending/receiving. The next Internet bill just may be delivered by a fleet of US bombers with bomb bays full of JDAMS.
Posted by: Old Patriot ||
09/01/2003 13:04 Comments ||
Top||
#7
O.P., now that they have the soddy yahoos, no need to get fancy with the technology; good old-fashioned sleep deprivation and giggle juice will suffice...
Posted by: Carl in N.H. ||
09/01/2003 14:21 Comments ||
Top||
#8
Unless the guy cut, pasted and dragged to fashion the address, wouldn't all the keystrokes still be available on the harddrive?
Posted by: Super Hose ||
09/01/2003 14:24 Comments ||
Top||
#9
Every time you make an internet connection, there are a string of numbers - ISP addresses - exchanged between computers. That is the route the message takes between one computer and the other. It's necessary for the "handshake" that says the email was delivered to the appropriate recipient. Somewhere, on some server, there's a log of that transaction at the delivery end, and several places enroute where the handoffs between one server an another took place. Trace those numbers, and it'll lead you to the ISP that was the final delivery portal. From there, it's easy to discover which email address that message was delivered to. The whole purpose of all that tracking is to ensure every message gets delivered to who it's addressed to, and doesn't end up in the wrong place. At the same time, it's possible to use those same faculties to locate a specific electronic address, and possibly even an geographic address. Once you know that, all it takes is entering those coordinates into the proper guidance system.
Posted by: Old Patriot ||
09/01/2003 15:16 Comments ||
Top||
#10
Yet another reason for going after Iraq before going after other Islamo-fascist regimes; the Arabs pour in and the Iraqis think "Hey, I may not be crazy about the West, but I don't like these A-hole Arabs blowing up my country either."
We should make a point to remind Iraq that they are not Arabs. Having Iraq as a friend in that region would be invaluable and may be a tipping point in the WoT.
Posted by: Uncle Joe ||
09/01/2003 15:28 Comments ||
Top||
#11
Uncle Joe - The Iraqis, except for the Kurds and Turkmen and a few others up North, are Arabs. The Iranians aren't, they're Persians - that's who you're thinking of, I'm sure.
#12
A couple minor details, Old Pat. You are correct about email having routing addresses. However, mail does not have to be delivered or even sent to be read.
Consider a web-based mail account ( like hotmail ) where two people know the username and password. One logs in from some internet cafe and writes an email. Maybe sends it to himself. Maybe just saves it in the drafts folder. Number Two logs in later and reads the mail or looks in the drafts folder. Message delivered, but it never left the server where it was created. Not much of an IP number trail to follow.
Secondly, IP addresses for dial-up connections are assigned dynamically. Each time you connect, you get a different address from the block of addresses assigned to that ISP. Your IP address today may have been used for naughtiness by someone else yesterday.
Saudi Arabia yesterday challenged those who claimed its citizens were involved in the bomb attack in the Iraqi holy city of Najaf to produce the evidence. "Some sources in Iraq have said that Saudi citizens were involved in the terrorist incident which claimed the life of (prominent cleric and politician) Mohammad Baqer Al Hakim," a foreign ministry spokesman said, quoted by the official SPA news agency. "These sources did not present any proof for their claims. The government of Saudi Arabia hopes these sources will reveal the information they have and pass it on to the government of the kingdom instead of making unsubstantiated allegations."
"Nope. Nope. Wudn't us..."
The statement followed claims that at least two Saudis were among 19 people detained in connection with Friday's car bombing in Najaf which killed Hakim and 95 others outside a mosque. Meanwhile, a local governor said up to five suspects, all of them Iraqi, have been detained over the car bomb attack. "There are several suspects, none of whom has citizenship other than Iraqi," Haidar Al Mayyali, the governor of the Najaf area, said. "The number of those now arrested is not greater than the number of fingers on one hand."
Either the data are conflicting, or he's got at least 19 fingers on one hand...
Mayyali said the official death toll now stood at 83 while 175 people had been wounded. Hospital officials have said at least 95 were killed. He said the attackers had links to the power structure of ousted president Saddam Hussein. Earlier, the Najaf-based Hawza, the top Shi'ite religious authority in Iraq, issued a warning to radical Sunni Muslims following the arrest of the suspects.
"Yar! We're warnin' youse infidel bastards!"
Elsewhere, Iraqi authorities are searching for three cars laden with explosives believed to have entered Najaf. "We received information that three car bombs had entered Najaf and we are searching them," Major Tariq Jamel said.
"Like we really need three more car bombs right now..."
Iraqi police also arrested a man in connection with the massacre and said they had now made a total of 19 arrests after the blast.
I'll bet that guy plays a mean piano, with 19 fingers. Wonder if he's got that many on the other hand, too?
They found poison in the man's pockets, an officer said, and brought him to Najaf.
I guess if it's lethal, the Bad Guys like it. Guns, bombs, poison...
The Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) will investigate links between the Najaf bomb massacre and deadly attacks on the UN's Baghdad headquarters and Jordan's embassy, the top FBI agent in Iraq said. "We'll be obtaining samples if we can of the explosives used (in Najaf) and will be submitting that to laboratory analysis, and comparing it with samples taken from other bombings," Tom Fuentes said.
Posted by: Fred Pruitt ||
09/01/2003 00:43 ||
Comments ||
Link ||
[4 views]
Top|| File under:
#1
Iraqi Police & FBI to Saudis:
"Sure. You can send some of your Sunni infidel 'investigators' here. They can't see any of the evidence or question the suspects. But you can still come, if you wanna - we'll make your stay as miserable as possible, we assure you. We will tell you whatever we feel like some of what the suspects tell us. Will you be taking the corpses back with you when we're finished? Good."
I'll bet the FBI is going to enjoy 'reciprocating' Saudi cooperation.
#4
In a later statement, the Saudi ambassador said, "Well, yeah, ok.....so they have Saudi birth certificates, all of their living family members reside in Mecca and Medina, and they know where to get really good hummus in Riyadh. That doesn't mean they're SAUDIS!!!"
Posted by: Baba Yaga ||
09/01/2003 12:38 Comments ||
Top||
#5
Just a thought, but if I was related with the two mules who got caught at the internet cafe, I'd be watching out for Luca Brazi about now. Better let your family know that your heart is fine, stay out of fast cars and don't fly any airplanes in good weather. Don't go swiming, do sit with your back against the wall at the resturant, don't answer the door, get your ass to Pakistan asap.
US forces backed by helicopters moved into a farming area around the northern Iraqi city of Mosul after scouring a neighbourhood in an apparent hunt for ousted Iraqi president Saddam Hussein. US troops were seen in force in a mostly-inhabited area which contains farms that belonged to officials of Saddam's deposed regime as well as home belonging to one of his half-brothers. Earlier, troops backed by helicopters entered the al-Arabi neighbourhood, residents told AFP, adding that Saddam could be hiding there. "There is a heavy presence of US troops, acting on information that Saddam may be hiding in the al-Arabi neighbourhood," one resident said. "The word in town is that Saddam is there," said another.
We've only got to get lucky once. He has to be lucky every time...
Posted by: Fred Pruitt ||
09/01/2003 00:13 ||
Comments ||
Link ||
[2 views]
Top|| File under:
#2
Sammy is dipping deep into his luck barrel. Pretty soon he will hit bottom. Be patient and keep up the pressure and Sammy will be owned by the Parts Man.
Posted by: Alaska Paul ||
09/01/2003 19:30 Comments ||
Top||
THE US State Department is "deeply concerned" for the health of Burma pro-democracy activist Aung San Suu Kyi, who is on a hunger strike to protest against her detention by the country's military regime. The department called for her immediate release and said Myanmar authorities "have full responsibility for her health".
Bad move. They'll slap a feeding tube into her...
"This courageous leader of the National League for Democracy and proponent of non-violent political change, has placed herself at risk on many occasions in pursuit of democracy and respect for basic human rights in Burma," the State Department said. "We are deeply concerned for her safety and well-being." In calling for the release of Suu Kyi and her supporters, the State Department urged the country's military rulers to join in serious political discussions with Burma's political parties.
Posted by: Fred Pruitt ||
09/01/2003 00:13 ||
Comments ||
Link ||
[2 views]
Top|| File under:
#1
Not good - she only weighs about 70-75 lbs. Many of these asian ladies, and Suu Kyi is a classic example, are truly tiny and have almost zero body fat. Dr White might want to weigh in as this is a dangerous game she has begun.
DIYARBAKIR, Turkey - Turkeyâs war with Kurdish rebels threatens to become a whole new headache for the U.S. military in Iraq
The terrorists rebels, who are terrorising fighting for autonomy in southeastern Turkey and who have in the past fought for a Kurdish homeland straddling Turkey-Iraqi border, have spurned Turkeyâs offer of amnesty and are threatening to end their four-year unilateral cease-fire on Monday unless Turkish soldiers stop attacking them.
That may spell not only the possibility of instability in southeastern Turkey but also in northern Iraq, where an estimated 5,000 rebels who fled a Turkish onslaught in the 1990s are hiding out in mountain villages and caves.
Having supported the American war on terrorism, led the peacekeeping mission in Afghanistan and cooperated in the hunt for al-Qaida operatives, Turkey feels entitled to U.S. support in fighting the rebels. Yeah, itâs time to show what the US is definition of fighting Al Qeada terror is
But the thinly stretched U.S. military would have a hard time against experienced fighters in remote mountain hideouts.
Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan, in a television interview Friday, said the United States owed Turkey help. "After Sept. 11, Turkey fulfilled its responsibilities in combating international terrorism ... now it is time for you to fulfill your responsibility," he said.
Erdogan said U.S. officials were responding with some measures, but he refused to elaborate.
Turkey is planning to raise the issue when Gen. James L. Jones, the head of U.S. forces in Europe visits on Wednesday.
The United States may feel less obligated to Turkey, since Ankara refused to let U.S. invasion forces pass through the country en route to Iraq. But it also has a new reason to court Turkey: Itâs one of the countries being asked to send peacekeepers to Iraq.
Turkey will insist that in return, the United States should shut the rebel bases in Iraq, said Soner Cagaptay, an analyst at the Washington Institute for Near East Policy. Yep, Weâll send some 10.000 troops, but first show us how serious you are in fighting terrorism
Turkey has several thousand soldiers backed by tanks in northern Iraq who could be used to fight the rebels.
"If it is going to happen, it would be a joint U.S.-Turkish operation," Cagaptay said. "The U.S. could contribute air power and intelligence while the Turkish troops fight on the ground."
But Kurdish rebel leader Abdullah Ocalan, captured in 1999, is already warning from his prison cell in Turkey that any fight would be brutal.
"If the way to peace is not cleared, then the legitimate defense war will take place, maybe 100 people a day will die," Ocalan said in a statement which appeared in the German-based Kurdish paper Ozgur Politika. Pretty though talks for an imprisoned terror chief
Kurdish fighters "would defend themselves against whoever attacks them, including ... the United States," he said. Woopsie
A senior Turkish intelligence official, speaking on condition of anonymity, said Turkey would be satisfied if the Americans force the rebels to lay down their weapons and melt into the Iraqi Kurdish population.
The cease-fire is already tattered. Hundreds of rebels reportedly have filtered back into Turkey and there has been a recent upsurge in attacks. On Thursday night, six policemen were wounded in two separate shootings.
Turkey, encouraged by the United States, passed a law in early August that grants amnesty to rebels who didnât engage in violence and offers reduced prison sentences to those who surrender and give information. The rebel leadership is excluded.
The rebel group rejected the law, saying it fell short of their expectations of an unconditional general amnesty. I guess unconditional amnesty should also include mass murderers, talking about pushing your fortune
In a bid to inform the rebels and their relatives about the new law, Turkey is using helicopters to scatter leaflets on the mountains.
On the streets of Diyarbakir, the main southeastern city, police hand out leaflets explaining the law. Most people accept the leaflets without comment.
But thereâs a great dread of a return to the fighting that left 37,000 dead and hundreds of villages destroyed.
"Now, we are free to walk at night," said Abdulkadir Cicekci, as he sat on a stool amid piles of goat cheese in colorful plastic basins in his shop. "If clashes start again, I am afraid we may not be able to do that."
The Kurdistan Workers Party, the main rebel movement, withdrew most of its forces to northern Iraq after declaring the cease-fire in 1999. It renamed itself the Kurdistan Freedom and Democracy Congress, KADEK, last year to emphasize what it said was a shift from military to political action.
Posted by: Murat ||
09/01/2003 3:52:08 AM ||
Comments ||
Link ||
[4 views]
Top|| File under:
#1
Turkey has several thousand soldiers backed by tanks in northern Iraq
When did this happen? I must have missed the press release.
Posted by: Rafael ||
09/01/2003 5:09 Comments ||
Top||
#2
There are around 3000 troops and several dozens of tanks posted in various places in northern Iraq, main headquarters are in Zaho, Sulaimaniya and Arbil. You must have missed press release because they have been station there a couple of years ago with a continues presence since.
Posted by: Murat ||
09/01/2003 5:24 Comments ||
Top||
#3
Shit, this must be some sort of joke. Murat, did you write this article, as well as post it here?
"Having supported the American war on terrorism, led the peacekeeping mission in Afghanistan and cooperated in the hunt for al-Qaida operatives, Turkey feels entitled to U.S. support in fighting the rebels."
What a hoot - and a load of BS. Hum the trite ballad "Feelings" to yourself as your read.
News Flash for Turkey:
After 50+ years of being a true ally, you recently changed your stripes. You made it absolutely crystal clear that you are certainly not an ally any longer. You made your choices - we are merely acknowledging the facts. What are you to the US now? Hard to say, exactly, but "ally" isn't one of the options on the menu. You want something? You expect something? You demand something? When we were allies, we supported you. Look at the record. But we are no longer allies. Now you are just another asshat Islamic regime blustering and exercising for the entertainment of the local press. Go fuck yourselves. Rinse. Repeat.
And, just for the helluvit, if I were running or advising the US forces in Iraq, your forces would be unceremoniously hauled to the border and dumped across - and any future crossing would be met with the maximum force available - just as we would with any other asshat Islamic regime, such as SyrLeb or Iran.
It's Iraq, not Turkey, and you chose not to be a part of the coalition. In the run-up to the war we addressed every stated concern of our former ally - and created a package of economic incentives guaranteed to make sure you felt little or no pain - as was requested. Money was what you were concerned with, lost trade etc, and so we created a 24K gold parachute for our "ally" - but you refused it - and played your little game with the French and Russians. Not only did you fail to assist us in getting rid of one of history's worst dictators, you actively opposed our efforts to do so. You even went so far as to refuse even passive support by allowing materiel and men to transit your territory and airspace. You aided and abetted Saddam. You had been doing so for more than a decade in violation of UN sanctions, but we didn't bash you for it or abandon you.
But that was only money - the obsession of foolish people. No that's not the big one... here's where we really part company: you cost American lives by denying us the planned Northern front. In fact, in doing so you actively became our enemies from my personal POV. Taking even the smallest of these choices by Turkey into account, it's clear you have no say about the coalition's conduct, or business being in Iraq, or expecting anything from the US. Got problems with the Kurds? Tough shit - deal with it within your own borders, shitheads. Life is hard. It's a lot harder if you're stupid. Turkey's leadership certainly qualifies for that special distinction.
Piss Off. You're fucking asshat Islamic Turks. Get back across the border and stay there. Quit your gutless whiny-assed bitching and expect from the US only that which is your due: at best our indifference; at worst our enmity.
You aided and abetted Saddam. You had been doing so for more than a decade in violation of UN sanctions, but we didn't bash you for it or abandon you.
Be serious pall, every bozo knows that the US undermined its own sanctions as it where American companies who bought most of the sanctioned Iraqi oil.
Got problems with the Kurds? Tough shit - deal with it within your own borders, shitheads. Life is hard. It's a lot harder if you're stupid. Turkey's leadership certainly qualifies for that special distinction.
Hey buddy go tell this to your beloved Bush (& Blair = dumb and dumber), it is your American government who is requesting Turkish contribution to sent âoccupationpeace keeping troopsâ, like we sent before in the mess called Afghanistan you created.
Piss Off. You're fucking asshat Islamic Turks. Get back across the border and stay there.
Thatâs unfortunately not up to you we decide where our army stays. By the way whatâs wrong about being Islamic, my religion is Islam nothing wrong with that. But Iâm refraining from calling any religion bad unlike your moronic rampant expressions, see a shrink will ya.
Posted by: Murat ||
09/01/2003 8:51 Comments ||
Top||
#5
American,Souk merchant:"What is it worth to you?Make me an offer,Murat."
#7
Now that sounds like a challenge.Do you really think you can stay in Iraq if the 4I.D. and 101st decide to kick your silly ass out?
Itâs more of a fact, the 41.d. and the 101st have to declare a war for that, even your buthead leaders are not that stupid. If you mean would Turkey be a match for the US, the answer is nay thatâs obvious.
Posted by: Murat ||
09/01/2003 9:34 Comments ||
Top||
#8
"every bozo knows that the US undermined its own sanctions as it where American companies who bought most of the sanctioned Iraqi oil"
Prove it. Every time I see the idiotic phrase "everyone knows" my BS detector goes off. C'mon hotshot, show me the proof. I'll bet buying on the spot market is as close as you'll get - and in that case there are numerous entities which have sold and resold the commodity. Turkey and Syria were direct purchasers and abettors. Get a grip and deal with it.
"it is your American government who is requesting Turkish contribution"
I guess you can't read. Or perhaps you read, but can't comprehend. Or comprehend, but just refuse to work within the facts. You ignored:
"And, just for the helluvit, if I were running or advising the US forces in Iraq..." Fuck off.
"unfortunately not up to you we decide where our army stay"
Indeed, it is unfortunate. I'd bounce your forces high enough to clear those mountains.
"whatâs wrong about being Islamic"
Simple personal experience and observations underscore my lack of respect for Islam:
1. I lived and worked in an Islamic society for more than 4 years - and Islam sucks if you're not one of them. Unimaginably badly. No one who hasn't experienced it firsthand seems to really understand jusy how badly. Easily the most hypocritical society I have ever seen. Easily the most hypocritical religion I have ever seen.
2. Look around the world. Find where there is growing unrest and violence. The majority, if not the vast majority, are those places where Islam is either trying to take root - or is in power. Islam, regardless of the incessant apologist BS, is the most virulent agent of violence and intolerance and hatred in existence. It doesn't much matter whether this suits or feels bad or whatever. It is demonstrable and tangible.
"see a shrink will ya"
No thanks.
In 5 more years, many people will be agreeing with me who today are still clinging to their Western belief that everyone is the same and we only need to "understand" Islam better or have some group hugs to fix things and live in peace.
In 10 years they will be militantly anti-Islamic - and only those who are paid agents will still bother trying to put a happy face on a religion with dreams of World Dominion - and subjugation of Western freedom. Look up "implacable" and "enemy" - combine them to find what Islam is to individual freedom. Even the actual "moderate" Muslims are finding themselves under pressure, as many have discovered in those places where the 7th Century Caliphate Phreaks have taken root... they will find that their brother Muslims are far more unforgiving of their moderation, which is tantamount to collaboration - just ask the Paleos - than I am of their failure to denounce the jihadis. I merely insult them for their cowardice. The Caliphate Phreaks will gut them. You asked. I answered. There's no point in debating Islam, as truth is Islam's first victim. Time will prove me right - and I can weather the disagreement and derision of the gutless until then.
#10
.com - I stand by everything you ranted, awesome...
Posted by: Frank G ||
09/01/2003 10:20 Comments ||
Top||
#11
Tanx - it's actually very sad, Bro, but I mean every damned word. :-)
Such is life with Zugzug and The Cave ThugsAtila's HordesAlexander's GratenessRome's LegionsNapolean's PhantasiesNazisim & FascismJapanese ImperialismCommunism of All FlavorsMultilateralismPC Phoolishness Islamists. All of them have to be faced and defeated if we are to survive as free men. I'm sure the far better historians of Rantburg will be happy to point out my omissions - and I gratefully acknowledge and accept them, but I don't accept that I'm wrong about Islam either belonging in this list of tyrants and enemies of freedom or being the next major challenge to its survival. Time will take care of that objection.
As secretary of defense during the Persian Gulf War, Richard B. Cheney played a key role in the U.S.-led military coalition that forced Iraq to retreat from Kuwait. But as chief executive officer of Halliburton Co., a Dallas-based maker of oil equipment, Cheney recently held a major stake in Dresser-Rand and Ingersoll-Dresser Pump Co., two American players in the reconstruction of Iraq's oil industry.
http://www.gulfwarvets.com/aiding.htm
I lived and worked in an Islamic society for more than 4 years - and Islam sucks if you're not one of them.
Which country, you sound to me like a Jew between Palestinians, two groups sickly biased.
than I am of their failure to denounce the jihadis. I merely insult them for their cowardice.
Whether you donât know history or your skull is too thick to recognize and your self praised knowledge about Islam sucks. Ever heard of Ataturk who abolished the caliphate back in 1924 just to get rid of the Jihadis from Islam? The only bad luck is that the caliphate was the spiritual leader of the Sunni and not the Shia (so nobody is entitled to call for Jihad for the Sunni), the Shia spiritual is called the Ayatollah.
I as Muslim despise those abusers of religion, Jihadis as you prefer to call them even more than you do. They are not representing the Islam like that lunatic from Texas Waco does not represent Christianity, but you donât seem the understand that, maybe it is above your comprehension.
Posted by: Murat ||
09/01/2003 10:27 Comments ||
Top||
#14
"have to declare a war for that, even your buthead leaders are not that stupid"
No, you're right... but yours are. You could advise them to try the Iranian's version of foreign policy: wave your arms a lot, jump up and down a lot, assume we are stupid and lie to us, try to go nuke after saying the instant you get your hands on one you'll wipe out Israel. These things are guaranteed to make your country show up on our radar, no matter how imperfect it may be. Then you could meet Mr TLAM and Mr Abrahms.
#15
Why are the Turks fighting the Khurds? I thought all moslems were brothers in an endless jihad against the Greater and Lesser Satans.
Posted by: Super Hose ||
09/01/2003 10:33 Comments ||
Top||
#16
"...the mess called Afghanistan you created."-Yeah, it was SO much better before we got there.
Posted by: Uncle Joe ||
09/01/2003 10:34 Comments ||
Top||
#17
Why are the Turks fighting the Khurds?
Another question of low intellect. Answer Turks are not fighting Kurds but only terror groups among them. PKK is also on the terror list of the US FYI
Posted by: Murat ||
09/01/2003 10:45 Comments ||
Top||
#18
Spot on, .com! Excellent response!
But talking about Islamic hypocrisy is fruitless: I have yet to find a decnunciation of hypocrisy in the Quran, indicating that they don't even have an operational definition of it. How else can you explain red faced screams and furious hopping about when we do to them what they did to us? (I've got a copy of the Quran, Murat. How about a sura, forbidding hypocrisy to Muslims in the same way Christ forbade it to Christians, to set me straight?)
However, I have to agree with Murat that the Kurds should not be fighting in Turkey, attacking civilians. If what he says is true, there's a nice largish Turkish military force already in Iraq they should be attacking. Attacking military==freedom fighter. Attacking civilians==terrorist.
#19
Since I lived in Dallas and worked in the Oil & Gas industry for more than 20 years, I'd guess I know a bit about Halliburton, et al. Your claim was that: "American companies who bought most of the sanctioned Iraqi oil"
Halliburton, where it is involved in the O&G industry (that's not all they do), is an equipment and services company - it doesn't buy oil, it sells to those who produce and refine and distribute it. You do not know dick about it other than what your half-truth news outlets tell you. I worked for Mobil, Exxon, and Unocal at various times. THEY buy oil, son. I wrote reservoir simulators and drilling program simulators, among other things, for them. I even worked on the Saudi Royal Family Reservoir Model, which was written by Mobil R&D.
I just left Saudi Arabia - it was an American amongst Wahabbis, to use your phrasing.
I heard of Ataturk. I also heard he got tired of his jihadis and did them in. So do the Turks, the regular people, feel the same? See below for my doubts regards your leadership in this regard.
As for the Sunnis, they split from the Shia about the line of ascension after Mohammed: the Shia said it had to be a blood descendant and the Sunnis said it should be the "holiest" cleric - or so the hundreds of Muslims I've known have all told me. If you want to rewrite that story for me with a different ending, go ahead.
Assuming I was told (and what I've read supports this understanding) correctly, killing off the Sunni Caliphate wouldn't stop them from selecting new clerics to lead them who are free to interpret the Qu'uran any way they please - including calling for religious jihad (a misused word according to many sources) against anyone who stands in their way or is deemed a threat to the growth of Islam.
If you despise the jihadis, then that is something we agree upon. As for my comprehension, big mouth, you have to do more that just cast aspersions. Where are the Turkish Islamic Clerics denouncing the jihadis? Why do your leaders sit on their hands in the same regard? Did your leadership collaborate with the Iranian Rev Guards who quietly helped the Al Qaeda shitheads escape Iran about 10 days ago?
The article you posted claimed that Turkey has assisted in the WoT - name the actions taken. Name the asshats you've collected. Educate us on what Turkey has done.
Everything I said about Turkey's actions regards Iraq is true - you skip all the inconvenient details such as facts and go for soft targets, and get much of that wrong (Cheney / Halliburton), like the gutless jihadis.
Show me Turkey is anything but an undeclared enemy of the US, now. If you don't care about what America thinks or that you broke our alliance, then don't bother. However, if you'd like to rewrite Islamic history for us, please do.
#20
.com - I agree with what you say. But, you've used the invective "asshat" three times now in the same thread. May I suggest other names for Murat? How about assclown or smacktard? These both seem appropriate.
As for my comprehension, big mouth, you have to do more that just cast aspersions. Where are the Turkish Islamic Clerics denouncing the jihadis? Why do your leaders sit on their hands in the same regard? Did your leadership collaborate with the Iranian Rev Guards who quietly helped the Al Qaeda shitheads escape Iran about 10 days ago?
Turkish clerics just care for the all day mosque routine work as they should do, religion and politics over here are since 1924 separate issues and denouncing work is done by our politicians unlike you are used to from Saudi Arabia maybe. Our leaders sitting on their hands, buddy you are blind or something, Turkey is one of the few countries who fights terror intensively (PKK, Hezbollah, DHKPC etc. etc.).
Collaboration with Iranian rev. Guards, where the hell are you talking about.
As for the US seeing Turkey as an ally or not is their problem, Turkey is not a doormat with a welcome sign on it to be walked over whenever it pleases the US. The US where not granted to pass thru Turkey, so what.
Posted by: Murat ||
09/01/2003 11:29 Comments ||
Top||
#22
Er um, Murat ? I think if you just look at the overall sentiment of this conversation, you can guess that the U.S. is in no mood to help Turkey right now, even though yes, they are an ally and do plenty of great things. Unfortunately, Turkey will have to wait for our balls to stop aching after that recent little kick.
#23
As has been ask before,Urat.Where are all these "Moderate Muslims"?
Why do we not hear thier voice denouncing,loud and often,the Jihadies slauhtering people who do not covert,pay Dimi taxes,and bow down to thier(Jihadies)will?
Why is it that"Moderate Muslims"are not actively fighting,infiltrating,or turnning into law enfocement officials those who slughter in the name of Islam?
"Moderate Muslims"lack of resolve in combating Islamic terrorisam makes me suspect thier words.
"Moderate Muslems"attempts to be appoligists for Islamic terrorists is no longer effective.I ain't buying it.
"Moderate Muslims"trying to lay blame on American Policies and the Evil Zionists don't wash.
I am forced to conclude that"Moderate Muslems":
a)do not exist
b)are cowards and fear thier own people more than anyone else
c)or belive in the Jihadist cause and are (1)just too cowardly to be open and above board with thier support(2)are acting as a Fith Column and are just waiting for thier activation orders.
Until till I see and hear active denunciation and destruction of the terrorists I am forced to conclude there are no"Moderate Muslims".
#25
"Turkey is one of the few countries who fights terror intensively"
Tell me about Turkish actions against Hezbollah. Nah, on the other hand, I no longer care cuz you would just make shit up - and offer nothing of substance, no proof, as this entire thread demonstrates clearly.
"Collaboration with Iranian rev. Guards, where the hell are you talking about."
Took me awhile to locate them with my little dial-up connection:
http://www.rantburg.com/Default.asp?D=8/16/03&C=-Short%20Attention%20Span%20Theater-#17686
http://www.siteinstitute.org/exposing.asp?id=139
"As for the US seeing Turkey as an ally or not is their problem, Turkey is not a doormat with a welcome sign on it to be walked over whenever it pleases the US. The US where not granted to pass thru Turkey, so what."
Ah. Ally, indeed. We never treated Turkey as a doormat - keep your insecurity and inferiority complex under control - that's your personal problem. We were once real allies. The US lauded, rightfully, Turkey as an ally against Communism - and the US was, hands down, your best friend in the West. Recently, we immediately came to Turkey's defense in NATO when the Phrench blocked sending defensive materiel to Turkey (Patriot missiles) prior to Iraq. Now it looks like that was part of the little play, but no matter - we acted like your ally becuae we thought we were allies. Turkey, immediately thereafter, began making demands and crying about the economic fallout of a war - so we responded with generosity... and Turkey stonewalled us about the economic pkg until the hour was too late for the 4ID to get in theater in time. You cost American lives. Each soldier is worth 10 of you, Murat. Perhaps infintely more, on second thought, as they had balls and honor. Re: Turkey - So now we know what to expect. You're the new Phrench toadie in your neighbohood. You are, indeed, an assclown and smacktard, as spiffo suggests. Had we done any of the same to you, you would scream your bloody head off. Fuck you. Now it sez "Welcome" as far as I'm concerned.
So, once again, you don't challenge ANY facts, you just play your usual innuendo and half-assed tit-for-tat crap. We're done. You suck as a debator - not worthy.
#26
Murat,where was your vilifacation of the Muslims who blew-up the Jordanian Embasy,killing Muslems?
Where was your denonceation of the Muslims who blew-up the UN compound killing Muslims and UN humanitarian personel?
Where is you condenmation of the Muslisms who blew-up the Ali Mosque in Najaf killing Muslems?
What did we Americans hear out your mouth"It's America's fault"?
Those were not Americans who died.
It was not Americans killing"Peacefull,Moderate Muslims"
I stand by my previous post,Dipshit.
United Kingdom, December 2001 - June 2002 (ISAF I)
Turkey, June 2002 - February 2003 (ISAF II)
Germany/Netherlands, February 2003 - August 2003 (ISAF III)
NATO, August 2003 -
I am not posting to support Turkey or its decisions during the Iraq war. I just want to point out that the concept of "international relations" is quite different than "relations between individuals". There is a 50 years of strategic alliance between the U.S and Turkey, which is based on mutual interests of both countries. It is bigger than Iraq.
R. Perle: "...only want to make one point this morning, and that is that the relationship between the U.S. and Turkey, despite the inability to get the two countries together on a specific issue, which was the extent to which Turkey would accommodate the flow of American ground forces through Turkish to a northern front, is sound and healthy. This was a bump in the road, if you like; a pothole, if you like. But it does not fundamentally affect the relationship between two countries that have been friends and allies for a long time and continue to be friends and allies.
I'm not always so forgiving. Other countries that disappointed us will not be readily forgiven because the disappointment in some other cases was the product of a deliberate policy decision to separate that country from the goals and objectives and purposes of the United States in dealing with Saddam Hussein. And I don't believe that that is a fair description of Turkish actions and policies with respect to Saddam Hussein or American policy with respect to Iraq. Rather, it seems to me, it was a fiasco--the product of failed communications, inadequate understanding of details of the situation, and a misreading practically daily of the state of play between the two governments. (Richard Perle)
Posted by: Stephen ||
09/01/2003 13:02 Comments ||
Top||
#29
Damn fine idea,.co.Urat's logic ship is shot full of holes and sinking by the bow.
Where are you headed?
What role is Turkey playing in the war on terrorism?
Turkeyâthe only NATO member with an almost entirely Muslim populationâhas been an important U.S. partner in the war on terrorism. Since September 11, Turkey has provided military support, tracked suspect financial networks, and participated in the International Security Assistance Force (ISAF), the peacekeeping force that operates in and around the Afghan capital, Kabul. In June 2002, Turkey took command of ISAF.
Turkey has argued that the devastating attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon underscore the wisdom of its own tough crackdown on terrorist groups, which before September 11 had spurred international criticism and remains a major obstacle to Turkeyâs bid to join the European Union. While Turkey supports the pursuit of Osama bin Ladenâs al-Qaeda network and other international terrorist groups, it worries that an invasion of neighboring Iraqâa possible future step in the U.S.-led war on terrorismâmight embolden its Kurdish separatists and undermine regional stability.
Turkey, now governed by a party with Islamist roots, is also seen by many experts as a model for a Muslim democratic state.
How did Turkey respond to September 11?
With support for the United States. Turkish officials condemned the attacks as a crime against humanity and supported NATOâs unanimous and unprecedented decision to invoke Article V of its charter, which calls an attack against any one NATO member an attack against them all. Turkey also argued that the September 11 attacks showed that Turkeyâs own tough counterterrorist policies are warranted. Turkish President Ahmet Necdet Sezer said, âThe attacks on the U.S. have shown how correct Turkey is in her stance against terrorism.â
Is Turkey worried about al-Qaeda?
Yes. Modern Turkey was founded in 1923, succeeding the Ottoman Empire, a sprawling, ailing Muslim realm whose demise remains on bin Ladenâs list of anti-Western grievances. The new Turkish republic was built on secular institutions, and Turkeyâs leadership has thus sought to contain Islam as a political force. Alerts have been issued about al-Qaeda operatives in Turkey and plans to attack the U.S. and British embassies in Ankara, the Turkish capital. Turkish police also have expressed concerns that al-Qaeda operatives fleeing Afghanistan might pass through Turkey on their way to Europe or the Middle East; in February 2002, Turkish police arrested two Palestinians and one Jordanian suspected of being al-Qaeda members planning to attack Israel. In April 2002, Turkish police detained four Turkish members of a group called the Union of Imams, which Turkish authorities accuse of giving logistical support to al-Qaeda. Experts say Turkey is also worried that Sunni Muslim militants in northern Iraq may have links to al-Qaeda.
What role has Turkey played in Afghanistan?
Turkeyâs involvement in Afghanistan long predates September 11. Even before September 11, Turkey backed the Northern Alliance in its fight against the Talibanâboth because Turkey sees itself as a model secular Muslim nation and disliked the Talibanâs brand of Islamism and because one of Afghanistanâs four main ethnic groups, the Uzbeks, has some linguistic and ethnic ties to Turks. Following the September 11 attacks, Turkey gave the United States overflight rights, helped with airplane refueling from the Incirlik air base in south-central Turkey, and provided intelligence. Turkey is also the lone Muslim country in ISAF, the U.N. peacekeeping force in and around the Afghan capital of Kabul.
How big is the Turkish presence in the U.N. peacekeeping force?
Turkey initially deployed about 300 special forces troops in and around Kabul. In June 2002, after taking command of ISAF, Turkey had 1,400 troops in Afghanistan, making it the largest contingent in the peacekeeping force. There are about 4,500 troops in ISAF, mostly European.
#31
Stephen - Thx! I'll read these links carefully. The apparent loss of Turkey as our ally was easily one of the most devastating aspects of Iraq, IMO. If the stories of their being led astray and the new govt being incredibly naive, etc. are accurate, then that is sort of interesting, but hardly good news. I agree the 50 year alliance was a bulwark against communism - and regardless of Murat's lack of understanding, the US truly valued Turkey - as I tried to point out. What it is today, however, is a rather large unknown. Perle's comments are interesting, but seem far out of proportion in their blissful dismissal. I already knew about their relationship with Israel, but that was created prior to the current Islamic regime. Now? I hope they kept their heads better there than they did with the US regards Iraq. Their contributions to ISAF are rather small - and they seem to be far more consumed with their internal terrorism, some of which is self-inflicted mishandling and cruelty. Well, I'll go read and keep my powder dry for another day. Thank you for stepping in with some substance - I appreciate it!
Murat - You haven't been saved - you're still a fool, regardless.
#32
Murat, please, don't make us angry. You wouldn't like it very much if you made us angry. We might lose our "perspective" and do something nasty, like
1. Take out ALL of Turkey's airfields, even the civilian ones, in 24 hours, using Tomahawks and special anti-airfield munitions.
2. Take out the two towers supporting that nice bridge across the Bosphorous, and watch the rest collapse into the straits, effectively blocking them from use.
3. Mining every harbor you have, including even the most podunk fishing village, with mines so sophisticated you can't fight against them.
4. Wipe the force you have in Iraq off the face of the earth, using a combination of Warthogs, Buffs, JDAMS, and special munitions. The wounded will cry in vain for relief, because nobody can move two feet to help them without triggering another boom.
That's just for starters, little butt-boy. The United States has learned (very painfully) not to fight with less than our full potential - ever. The only serious threat to our Abrams tanks are our own A-10's. The air will belong to us - give up any thought of flying combat missions against us - it's a waste of time and resources.
We went easy on Iraq, because we didn't want to damage the infrastructure or cause a lot of damage we'd have to repair. We won't have any constraints if we have to play hardball with Turkey. I don't think you have any clue what "total warfare" is all about, but we do, and have been practicing it for 50 years.
Turkey was a friend, and an ally in Korea. Turkey was a fellow member of NATO and an ally through the fall of the Soviet Union. Lately, Turkey's begun playing the Islamofascist power politics game. That's a no-no. A democratic, moderate Turkey has been our ally. That government hardly exists any more. Until it returns, and we learn through its actions to trust it again, Turkey is one big question-mark. It wouldn't take much to turn that question-mark into a targeting circle. It would be wise to be very, very careful.
Posted by: Old Patriot ||
09/01/2003 13:40 Comments ||
Top||
#33
It's not time to give up on Turkey just yet. They have that whole islamic thing to worry about. You know, speakout get blown up. That can have a very sobering effect on people. My rant yesterday about moderate muslims taking this islamazoid freakfest seriously and taking it to the streets. Ever thought about blowing up some of the freaks Murat? Do you know any hardliners? Probably not huh? Is Turkey as commited to a free Kurdisville as a place for the Kurds as other muslim countries are about the paleos. I don't deny that Turkey has a problem with Kurds as I bet the Kurds have some problems with Turkey.
#34
Whatever you think about relations between the U.S. and Turkey, the PUK's history of terrorism, with tranzi support, requires cooperation in wiping them out. Turkey should have shut Ocalan up despite EU anti-death penalty pressures. Now PUK is set to destabilize the north, having turned down a generous amnesty.
On this one, our interests coincide. Can we just keep the Iraqi Kurds, and the Turks, from being sucked in to a confrontation?
First, as Stephen points out, the Turks have been helpful in the fight against al Qaeda, in Afghanistan and elsewhere. The Turkish military, that is. The current political leadership in Ankara I'm not so sure about.
.com, Old Patriot, et al. We don't want to screw with the Turks. I repeat, we don't want to screw with the Turks. I do not think that fighting Turkey is a viable option, especially now. The US has too much to do with not enough men. And the Turks are fierce fighters. There are more important priorities.
Murat, First, you really need to get off the oil thing. It is true that the US was the largest buyer of Iraqi oil. But that was all done under the terms of the UN sanctions. The oil the US bought wasn't smuggled out. That's not undermining the sanctions.
Second, You can't have it both ways. You complain that the United States hasn't solved the problem of Kurdish terrorism, and then turn around and say "The US where not granted to pass thru Turkey, so what."
Turkish refusal to grant US forces passage was the reason the US was forced to cooperate rely on Kurdish groups. If 4ID moves through Turkey, there is no need for the US to rely on the Kurds during the war. In fact, if Ankara had played its cards right, there probably would have been Turkish troops in the invasion force.
Hey Murat, what is the reason the archfiend Ocalon won't be executed? Answer: Because Turkey sold out to the Euro-wimps. The Turkish political leadership decided Brussels' opinion was more important than the national interest.
Hey Murat: what's the reason Turkey refused US troops in early 2003? Answer: The Turkish political leadership sold out to the Euro-wimps. Chirac told Ankara that if they allowed US troops to move through, they could kiss the dream of joining the EU goodbye.
That said, thank you for posting the article, Murat. Terrorists must be stopped, Kurdish or otherwise.
Posted by: Pete Stanley ||
09/01/2003 14:17 Comments ||
Top||
"Yet the AKP is determined to improve damaged relations with the superpower. It is an irony of history that a pro-Islamic Turkish political party is trying so hard to have good relations with both the United States and the European Union. Even more paradoxical is the fact that the AKP is pursuing such a pro-EU and pro-US agenda despite the obstructionism of Turkeyâs Kemalist-secular pro-Western establishment. It is as if roles have been switched and the conventional Islamist-Westernist paradigm turned upside-down."
Many people (wrongly) believe that is the Islamists in Turkey who refused the U.S. troops. In fact it is the secularists!. Only if 3 members of the CHP (the secular party in opposition) had supported the government, the outcome would have been different (all members of CHP voted against it). Compare it to the Conservative Party in Britain - without their help the U.S. would be all alone.
America may not need Turkey to contain Iraq any more, but it would be a great mistake to conclude that it no longer needs Turkey at all. ... On Iraq, Turkey could now offer more than just a launching pad for American air strikes, but the intimate knowledge of the country that Americans sorely lack, restoration of a valuable trading relationship, and help with the reconstruction of an infrastructure that Turkish companies helped to build in the first place. With the United States now desperate for allies to help stabilize Iraq, Turkey's large armyâhaving just led the United Nations stabilization force in Afghanistanâcould also come in handy, in the southern part of Iraq where any differences over the Kurdish and Turkoman minorities can be avoided.
Turkey could also play a constructive role alongside the United States in the Middle East peace process. As one of the only countries in the world that maintains excellent relations with both Israel and the Palestinians, it could engage with both sides and help provide legitimacy to the painful compromises that will be necessary to achieve peace.
Perhaps most importantly, the United States still needs Turkey to succeed internally, as a demonstration to the world that democracy and prosperity in a Muslim country are possible.
#38
By the way whatâs wrong about being Islamic, my religion is Islam nothing wrong with that.Posted by: Murat 2003-9-1 8:51:10 AM
Let's see:
1) Its a religion of violence against unarmed civillians;
2) Its a religion that oppresses women;
3) Its a religion that endorses hypocrisy rather than prohibiting it;
4) Its a religion that breeds cowardice among its "moderates" (how else can one reconcile the astounding SILENCE that comes from the moderates when one of their more radical brethren blows civillians up?);
5) Its a religion that ignores education and science (go ahead, name me just ONE leading university in a muslim country that is respected worldwide as a leader in scholastic endeavrors);
6) Its a religion that teaches NO TOLERANCE for those that don't believe as they do;
I could go on, but what would be the point? Honest debate is yet another thing that Muslims place no value upon.
My understanding of the Khurdish tribal area is that there are several autonomous Khurdish groups in Iran, Iraq and Turkey that are funded from outside influences.
Currently, Sadaam is no longer in a position to destabilize the Turkish Khurds. I would expect that this is a good thing for the Turkish governemnt.
It is doubtful that anyone in Iran has extra dollars to fund hatred outside of the Shia area of Iraq. The Iraqi Khurds are currently involved helping us and don't have a close relationship with the Turkish Khurds. Their relationship with other Khurdish tribes would be more closely described as rivalry fostered by years of different outside interests dropping money and guns into an uneasy area of the world.
With all the normal destabilizing influences focussed elsewhere, now, would be a primo time for Turkey to develop a working relationship with Turkish Khurds. Hopefully, that is what the amnesty initiative is about.
As for dropping Turkish troops into the middle of Iraq, that is an incredibly bad idea hatched by someone who needs to be fired immediately. While Turkish tropps would be fully willing and uniquely qualified in driving with us up and down RPG alley looking for a fight, peacekeeping is not an appropriate use of Turkish troops.
The Turks reamin of the shortlist of trully warlike fighters. Let's not blunt the tip of the spear by involving them in our little Iraqui hugfest.
Posted by: Super Hose ||
09/01/2003 14:54 Comments ||
Top||
#40
raptor:
Tell me about Turkish actions against Hezbollah
1. Turkish security officials confirmed to the English-language daily, Turkish Daily News, in March last year, that Turkey worked with Israel to counter the Hezbollah in Lebanon link
2. Cooperation between Turkish-Israeli intelligence:
In 1999, the London-based Foreign Report weekly bulletin said that Israeli intelligence, the Mossad, had expanded greatly its base in Turkey and opened branches for two other departments in Tel Aviv. The London-based al-Quds al-Arabi daily quoted Foreign Report as saying that Mossad carried out several spy operations and plans through its elements stationed in Istanbul and Ankara, where it received support and full cooperation from the Turkish government.
It also reported that, according to the military cooperation agreement between the Mossad and its Turkish counterpart, the MAT, which was signed in 1993 by former Turkish Foreign Minister Hekmet Citen during his visit to Israel, the Mossad had provided Turkey with plans aiding the country in closing its border with Iraq, as well as being involved in the arrest of Ocalan. link
p.s. Do you know that Turkey was the first Moslem state to recognize an ominously isolated Israel in 1949?
#41
The problem is, Turkey is trying to play both sides of the street, at our expense.
We asked for help - Turkey balked.
Turkey asked for help - the US made it happen.
THe Turks asked that the US keep the lid on the Kurds - the US has, for the most part, and as well as it can, done so.
The US asked, in turn, for Turkey to restrain itself over involvement in the Kurdish territories of Iraq - and we captured a dozen Turk special forces in Kirkuk.
See a disconnect here? THAT's the problem. "Good relations" is a two-way street - not "All for me and none for you". Turkey has done several things in a row to aggravate us, and most of those things were deliberate, aimed at causing us serious difficulties and to wreck the US efforts in Iraq. That's not the work of an ally.
Posted by: Old Patriot ||
09/01/2003 15:02 Comments ||
Top||
#42
Pete . Stephen - Hang on, guys... you're certainly being generous. The 6 individuals detained (indicated in the article from Stephen) which may have been linked to AlQ is the tiniest drop in the bucket of what has passed thru Turkey. You don't get a broad-brush 'fighting AlQ' attaboy for that effort.
As for the fierce Turkish fighters - everyone is fierce. Afghan, Arab, Iranian, the Swiss, yadda3, the lot. Everybody's vewy vewy fierce and we shouldn't screw with any of 'em. Are you seriously selling me today's data - or something from your personal past - or something you read as a kid - or the script from Midnight Express? C'mon - haven't we heard this every time we have a problem with anyone? And I mean anyone? So, are you saying that when facing a no-shit modern army these guys can kick our ass? Or that they won't turn tail and run? Too few boots? Ok. But that's not related to this (insert country of the moment)'s fierce fighters. That's an old song and it don't play no more.
BTW, I did not suggest we invade Turkey, but that Turkey get it's ass out of Iraq. They chose not only not to participate - they chose to sabotage the US. They have no business being there - and as the little episode with their SF a month or so ago demonstrates, they cannot be trusted. No one here supports terrorists of any stripe, including PUK. They will get cooperation from US when we have time for it. Meanwhile, they should be chillin' at home. I would like to hear you say it's OK with you that, with no Northern front, the US suffered more casualties. Not OK with me, I assure you. There was no hammer to strike the anvil and we have the Sunni Triangle intact as a result. That's not something you like about the Turk's game, is it? It was merely their greed...
I certainly agree that the Euros played them like a bad violin - and they tossed our alliance in the dustbin for a shot at the EU - which, of course, they'll probably never get. I referred to it as their incredibly naive leadership. It's still not good news that they were such easy dupes and had so little regard for their sworn alliance. Their current military leadership is a shadow of their predessors regards honor and commitment.
I'll read the stuff, judge the sources, and figure out what makes sense to me, but just cuz you guys posted this info does not automatically mean anything - other than you certainly value them more than they value the US. And that isn't something to be happy about. Consider some of these points while I read yours and assimilate it.
#43
Old Patriot: We asked for help - Turkey balked
Have any of you seen these resolutions of the U.S. Congress?
H. Con. Res. 327: Commending the Republic of Turkey and the State of Israel for the continued strengthening of their political, economic, cultural, and strategic partnership and for their actions in support of the war on terrorism.
H. Con. Res. 437: Recognizing the Republic of Turkey for its cooperation in the campaign against global terrorism, for its commitment of forces and assistance to Operation Enduring freedom and subsequent missions in Afghanistan... resolved by the House of Representatives that Congressârecognizes the Republic of Turkey for its steadfast commitment to, and cooperation in, the war against terrorism...
Go ahead, click the link and read the contributions of Turkey on WoT. link
Posted by: Stephen ||
09/01/2003 15:30 Comments ||
Top||
#44
.com,
what I hear you saying is that since the Gulf War, you would consider the following governments to be more pro-American than Turkey:
1. Jordan
2. Qatar
3. Kuwaitt
4. Free Khurds of Iraq
Your probably right, but Turkey has still been more friendly than our nominal allies like:
1. France/Belgium
2. Canada
3. Mexico
4. Germany
5. Saudi Arabia
It would probably just be best if the U.S. made sympathetic noises toward Turkey and didn't turn our backs to them.
Posted by: Super Hose ||
09/01/2003 15:31 Comments ||
Top||
#45
Yo, . (that's a dot) -
Your links are two or three-edged and barely support your statements, if at all. The first speaks of the mess that is Turkey, in fact. It is not full of praise, but problems - and ends with a thud. Who is "Dr" Sam Vaknin? An Israeli author selling books - and all over the map, otherwise. It will take time to figure him out to see if his analysis makes sense.
http://samvak.tripod.com/brief-turkeyisrael01.html
The second link is IOL, one of my favorite totally fucking insane moonbat sites. Read anything you like, but don't take IOL seriously. These are flat-worlders and Elders of Zion believers.
#46
.com
I do not admire Turkish government. It just seems to me that Turkey and Israel are cooperating against terrorism and that was the whole purpose of my post. Turkey may be in a mess, but it does not change this. I found IOL link seaching yahoo. That's it.
#47
Super Hose - Nope. Not at all what I said - and I'm perplexed where you came up with this!
I wouldn't give a plug nickel for the first 3 Arab states. We'll have a base in Qatar as long as it pleases them. It's also the home of Al Jazeera. The Kuwaitis are crazier than the Saudis - I wouldn't work there, though I had an offer. The joke in SA is that they try to out-Saudi the Saudis... not a recommendation. Jordan. A paper-thin shell of control over a virulent mass of Paleos - their true home is the Hashemite Kingdom, of course. Palestine is an invention. And riding a Harley, though I do dearly love the hogs, is not enough for me to be suckered into thinking Abdullah is doing anything more than riding the tiger.
The Kurds have demonstrated that they are real, however. They prospered under the no-fly policies when we kept Saddam off their necks and they have proven themselves far and away the most civilized native group in Iraq. They have maintained a national identity for over 500 yrs inspite of being handed shit sandwiches since before there was running water. They get my one vote.
Your second list is much like the first. I hesitate on Germany, because TGA clearly demonstrates there are learned and rational people there who aren't phooled by the accomodations made with Chirac. It seems to me that there's hope, when regime change occurs in the natural way of democracies, but time will tell what the replacement govt will be. Fisher, perhaps? That would cause me to turn them off, again. The EU is yet another point on which the notion of who / what Germany is will turn, too.
I would say that we can't turn our backs on any of these groups, save the Kurds. Hey, you asked, bro!
#48
Dear .com:
My links reflect the views of researchers in some of the prominent U.S. think-tanks. Unlike some of us who do not hesitate to consider Turkey as the fourth Axis-of-Evil, these people can see the big picture. Turkey did not help Americans in Iraq. So what? Is it fair to forget their help in 1991 and also in Afghanistan? They didnât receive any help from the U.S. for Cyprus either (I am not supporting Turkish position in Cyprus. However, from their point of view, when their national security was threatened in 1974, the U.S. not only refused to support them, but also put embargo against Turkey. OK. Maybe their intention was not just, they should have seek for peaceful solution, they were too trigger-happy, but Turks and the rest of the world think the same about Iraq war! Can you see the symmetry?)
By the way I read your posts with deep interest and I do not agree with your opinions. I do not believe they are trying to sabotage the U.S., I do not agree with you that you can blame Turks for loss of life, I donât think that Turkeyâs refusal had anything to do with the EU (it was a mixture of incompetency of Turkish and US diplomacy, internal politics, etc.).
Posted by: Stephen ||
09/01/2003 16:00 Comments ||
Top||
#49
(dot) - Ok, I get it. There is a LOT in Vaknin's article - and it will take a loooong time to chase down some of it!
#50
Stephen - Fine. I do not agree with you, either. Think-tanks are full of people with heavy-looking resumes, but they are often fluffy BS and grinding axes (self-serving) as well - hawking books and other money-making schemes. No source is absolute and without some bias... and think-tanks contain a whole stable of "experts" - each of which must be judged individually. I used to be on the panel of an IT company which reviewed and evaluated resumes for potential hires. Most would be amazed by how many people lie on their CV - and how blatantly. Liar's poker is what we called it. It's a bluff to see if you'll actually investigate the claims. MANY are pure air. So I'm a skeptic regards credential claims. Sue me.
"So what?" You suffer from Murat's disease. I DO think their active sabotage (already done; in the past) cost the US lives. I DO blame them for it. You admit you are not aware of the Turkish maneuvers during the time we were trying to secure transit rights. Fine - saying that's your opinion is up to you, but it's rather silly. It's a problem if you are uninformed when lacking easily available information to the contrary, and are told about it, yet still insist that I (or anyone else) take your opinion seriously.
Turkey's actions in Cyprus, which you dribble out in a serious of little apologetic asides, yet still conclude they made sense is rather, uh, disingenuous, as well. Don't you think the US and Turkish military had a shitload of heart-to-heart talks before those planes flew over and the Turkish parachutes opened? I wasn't privvy, but I'll bet that nothing would sway them - no matter how little it gained and how much they lost. Think these actions will be forgotten when they come begging to join the EU? Nope. Never. Ask Aris.
Believe what you like. Ignore what you like. I base my opinions on actions. Words mean almost nothing. As Mark Twain said, "All lies are acts and words have no part in them."
#51
Stephen - one more thing. Do NOT be impressed with Congressional Resolutions. I could get my Congressman, were I in the US, to read almost anything into the Congressional Record - for the right campaign contribution. These things are done in the dead of night when everyone who doesn't have some important constituent to please that day has gone. You can get these guys to say anything, believe me. So some Turkish patriots wanted to be able to quote the Cong Record. Ok. No big deal. Wasn't voted upon and wasn't condoned by the whole of Congress - just the Speaker's staff which reviews them for content. The main thing is that they have to be positive. None which slam anyone get through the filter and onto the agenda. Keep it simple and positive: All Americans love Ice Cream. It comes from milk. Milk is good for you. Cows make milk. Cows are thus good. Be it resolved, therefore, that blah-blah be declared National Cows Are Good Week. QED. and bingo, it's acceptable. Just thought you'd like to know it's more or less a joke.
#52
One thing I'll note about this whole issue is that the vote that took place in the Turkish parliament about whether they'd allow American troops through their soil or not; it was decided only on a few votes difference. In fact there were more in favour than against votes; it was only the abstentions that made the difference against letting them IIRC.
So I don't see how people can put so much importance on whether Turkey allowed the troops through or not. Would she have been a "noble ally" had they let the troop through, and now they're a enemy that they didn't? How can a government's whole moral worth change by a decision taken with a handful votes of difference?
People want the simplisting black-vs-white view, characterising whole nations as if they were single monoliths.
#53
Aris, "simplisting black-vs-white view, characterising whole nations as if they were single monoliths"? not even that - there's a lot of your arguments I dislike and disagree with, yet I respect your comments. I know you don't speak for all Greeks, maybe just a minority, but I respect the fact you argue - keep it up
Posted by: Frank G ||
09/01/2003 20:05 Comments ||
Top||
#54
The Govt of Turkey can, indeed, be judged by its actions. If any external action taken stems from an internal decision made with only a slim vote margin, does that change anything? No, of course not.
Prisoner Aris. The Military Tribunal panel has voted, 15-14, for conviction in your capital case. You'll be shot at dawn. But it was really really close, so don't feel bad.
Sure, Aris, your arguments make perfect sense. Geez.
#57
I am still curious about who would be funding destabilization of Turkish Kurds. I would expect to find a certain amount of cash flowing into Iraq, the Palestinean casuses, Chechnya, Kashmir and Indonesia. Things should be relatively quiet in Turkey.
Posted by: Super Hose ||
09/01/2003 21:23 Comments ||
Top||
#58
.com, way to fight the spirited fight. I do respect the passion. I'm sorry that it wasn't the Turkish 1st armoed division that was the steel in the upper part of the vise. That wasn't their concern. Iraqis could just as well eat cake for all they were concered. My only ray of light in their action was that they had a vote, it was open for debate, Uncle Sam was left holding the bag.
#59
.com, but if it was 14-15 *against* conviction, how would the 14 who voted to convict me be any better morally than if they had happened to be 15 instead? A murderer is a murderer regardless of whether the whole world agrees with him. An innocent is an innocent regardless of whether he stands alone.
So are allies and enemies. Turkey's parliament as a whole was on the brink between ally and neutralty. You want to present it if Turkey as a whole backstabbed you. Tough. Democracies don't work that way. It was only a handful of votes that made Turkey choose neutrality here instead.
The good thing in this vote is that though a close one and though the military disagreed with it, they nonetheless respected the decision of the elected parliament something that one wouldn't expect of Turkey of just a handful years ago.
Find some contentment in that, that the level of democracy in Turkey is improving, even if that means they don't do as US would like them to. If Iraq is all about building a muslim democracy, then you *ought* to find some contentment in the strengthening institutions of another muslim democracy.
Tehran Prosecution Office Rejects Indictment Against Agents Charged in Photographerâs Death
Tehranâs prosecution office on Monday rejected charges issued last month against two Intelligence Ministry agents over the killing of an Iranian-Canadian photojournalist, according to a statement released by the office. Hey, Fred! Look at your surprise meter -- itâs not twitching again!
The statement said Tehranâs deputy prosecutor general, Jafar Reshadati, returned the Aug. 25 indictments against the agents and called for "further investigations" into the charges. "You investigators can come back when you have the right answer..."
An independent judge charged the agents with complicity in photojournalist Zahra Kazemiâs "semi-premeditated murder." She died July 10 after sustaining head injuries while in custody. "Semi-premeditated murder" Does that mean she was hit by a truck intentionally, or am I missing a point somewhere?
#1
Well I'm totally surprised by this. *waiting for a reaction from Ottawa*
Posted by: Rafael ||
09/01/2003 18:39 Comments ||
Top||
#2
If the Canadians have ANY cojones at all, they won't take this lying down. They did spirit some of the US nat'ls out during the '79 hostage crisis (and a thank you for that!) but their national backbone is going invertebrate on them....can't have a Mountie if he can't stay on a horse dammit
Posted by: Frank G ||
09/01/2003 19:01 Comments ||
Top||
#3
Can we let them borrow a few tomohawks? They used to be our friends.
Posted by: Super Hose ||
09/01/2003 21:10 Comments ||
Top||
#4
The Canadien government spokeswoman, Faith Lovejoy-Holmes, was quoted today saying. "We are confidant and resolved that no stone has been left unturned in this tragic, yet courages, episode in nation to nation examination of whats is better left unsaid. Our government and the Canadien people, en mass, are not only saddened but deeply, deeply...."
JPost - Reg Reqâd
Two low-level Hamas members were killed, and as many as 30 were injured when IAF helicopter gunships launched four "Hellfire" missiles at a car driving in the densely populated center of Gaza City today.
The IDF has targeted Hamas militants and terrorists in Gaza in almost daily raids in order to bring the Hamas terrorist infrastructure to its knees.
The target of the attack was not immediately known. In the past two weeks, Israel has killed 10 Hamas members and three bystanders in five such attacks.
Eyewitnesses reported hearing F-16s flying overhead before and after the attack, which occurred along the central Al Wuhda street.
Ambulances raced to the scene of Mondayâs strike, near the government complex in Gaza City.
Hamas leader Abdel Aziz Rantisi - himself the target of a missile strike in June - called the attack "a another heinous crime against our people This is an old Israeli policy from an enemy which only understands the language of blood." He needs another visit - finish the job
Rantisi said that he was surprised at the carelessness of the Hamas operatives killed in the attack.
"Although we have issued a statement in which we warned our brothers in the movement of being more vigilant, we wonder why they gave the enemy a chance to attack them, and every Palestinian must consider himself targeted," Rantisi told Gaza-based Al Hurriyeh Radio.
"You shouldâve been hiding under your childrenâs bed day and night like me! Itâs safer and you get to spend more time with the family. In fact, Iâm thinking of moving my entire explosives lab there"
Posted by: Frank G ||
09/01/2003 9:32:55 AM ||
Comments ||
Link ||
[13 views]
Top|| File under:
#1
Hey, no fair! They didn't get to blow up a school bus or anything yet!
Posted by: Baba Yaga ||
09/01/2003 14:07 Comments ||
Top||
Israel's latest strikes on Hamas that killed two fighters in the Gaza Strip were a crime that will only fuel a cycle of retaliation, Palestinian Foreign Minister Nabil Shaath said yesterday. "It's another crime that will lead to more retaliation," Shaath said.
"Wanna see me hop on my cycle of violence and ride around the same old block?"
"Assassination leads to retaliation," Shaath said, adding that as Israel did not have the death penalty, killing a suspect without trial was "unacceptable".
"Us Paleostinians do have the death penalty, though, so bumping them off is okay for us..."
Shaath said the Palestinian Authority saw no alternative to the current US-backed Middle East peace plan and urged the world community to help revive the battered initiative. "Our resolve to return to peace is still there. Our commitment to end all killings and to have a real ceasefire is there," Shaath told a news conference at the end of a three-day visit to New Delhi.
"Our arms and ammunition are still there..."
Posted by: Fred Pruitt ||
09/01/2003 00:51 ||
Comments ||
Link ||
[2 views]
Top|| File under:
#1
What a load.
"Wanna see me hop on my cycle of violence and ride around the same old block?"
Now that's funny!
#2
Let's see Hamas blows up a bus load of kids and Israel nails the people responsible. I guess in the tortured logic for the religion of peace crowd that makes some kind of sense. Maybe now that the roadmap is a deadend, we can get about the business of getting rid of this pond scum.
Posted by: Douglas De Bono ||
09/01/2003 7:22 Comments ||
Top||
#3
DDB - right on. The era of the "tortured logic" and moral equivalence between terrorist and soldier is dead. DEAD. Too many people are onto the game, fisking the liars of IndyMedia, et al, with hundreds of factual sources at their disposal. The Israeli - Paleo situation can't be spun to death and spoon-fed to us per their BS agendas anymore. The age of Big Media is over. Had we had the Internet back when Walter Crankcase pulled his "we can't win" stunt - and the truth of LBJ / McNamara and the Tuesday Targeting List Luncheon been revealed - there might've been a second American revolution once it was digested.
Amen to the IDF liquidating these cretins - and the non-willfully-blind seeing it is long overdue.
France's newly-appointed ambassador to Israel described Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon as a "lout" and said the Jewish state was "paranoid" during a recent cocktail party in Paris, the Yediot Aharonot reported Sunday.
Might as well start your new post with a resounding "Aw, shit!"
The ambassador, Gerard Araud - who is due to take up his post in September - immediately denied the accusations, according to a brief statement released by the French foreign ministry.
"Nope. Nope. Never happened. Nope. Nope..."
A correspondent for Yediot Aharonot, Boaz Bissmuth, said he had overhead a conversation between Araud and two other veteran diplomats in the gardens of the French foreign ministry in Paris. The journalist said he then introduced himself to the incoming ambassador, who said: "You don't intend to write that," explaining that his comments were made during a private party and thus not in the public domain. However, Bissmuth wrote he believed that the comments "were sufficiently serious" to warrant their publication. In a statement, French foreign ministry spokesman Herve Ladsous said: "Gerard Araud denies in the most formal way all of the comments attributed to him by an Israeli journalist with respect to the state of Israel and its prime minister." Israeli Education Minister Limor Livnant told public radio that Israel should not sign Araud's letter of accreditation if the French diplomat had indeed used the words ascribed to him. "But we must verify what he said," the minister added.
Posted by: Fred Pruitt ||
09/01/2003 00:33 ||
Comments ||
Link ||
[2 views]
Top|| File under:
#1
Gotta be careful at those cocktail parties...the wine's gone a bit vinegary in the heat...
#2
Heh, heh - this is truly one of those precious moments... sahweeeeet.
I hope that Israel "denies in the most formal way" the credentials of this Phrench "lout" and sends him home to Mother Phrawnce either tourist class or by fishing boat.
#3
Regretfully, If france should pull this fool from the stage and replace him, they are not exactly at loss for the next guy who thinks that Sharon is the loutish leader of a paranoid state. The next guy may have just passed "diplomacy 101: Keep your mouth shut at cocktail parties, schmuck!" with a better grade than Araud.
#4
DS - You're right. So Israel should just continue rejecting the diplomatic credentials of those offered by this deeply sick, twisted, anti-Jew* country until they send someone who has actual credentials as a human being. This could take a very long time. But who would notice? No one - especially Israel.
*I did not use "anti-Semitic" because the Arabs are Semites, too - and everyone knows the Phrench love them.
#6
Well, you know, Israel's just a "shitty little country." What do they matter to La Belle France? Gotta watch those dinner party conversations, though...
Posted by: Fred ||
09/01/2003 10:33 Comments ||
Top||
#7
....sends him home to Mother Phrawnce either tourist class or by fishing boat.
How about russian submarine?
US envoy John Wolf has warned the Palestinians that Washington would not tolerate the collapse of the government of prime minister Mahmud Abbas, Palestinian sources said Sunday. Wolf, the man appointed by US President George W. Bush to oversee the implementation of the so-called road map for peace, talked to the speaker of the Palestinian parliament Ahmad Qorei over the weekend as a stand-off between Abbas and veteran leader Yasser Arafat showed no signs of abating. Qorei has been trying to mediate a compromise between the two one-time allies who have become involved in an increasingly public battle for control of the Palestinian security apparatus.
Just hope we stick with that resolution. Since the Israelis are saying the same thing, I'm assuming the two positions have been coordinated...
Posted by: Fred Pruitt ||
09/01/2003 00:29 ||
Comments ||
Link ||
[2 views]
Top|| File under:
#1
Fox just had a clip where the reporter said the US/Israeli pressure might harm Abbas, cuz now the Paleos will have to reject him, just cuz....
dumb bastards will never have a functioning state, they're too in love with hate and death, and never did get that cause/effect thing...seems to be an Arab cultural failing
Posted by: Frank G ||
09/01/2003 10:12 Comments ||
Top||
#2
Why do we care which powerless clown is in the Prime Minister spot?
Posted by: Super Hose ||
09/01/2003 10:26 Comments ||
Top||
#3
Actually it's true that Abbas is no different than any other hack there, but Bush put the effort into getting him as someone to talk to, if there ever was going to be a Paleo state formed. The Paleos themselves refuse to take a step down that path, cutting off the nose to spit their face is an excellent cliche here. I think it's a done deal that the Paleos have killed the chance for the forseeable future, and getting rid of Abbas will allow us to say: "Hey, we tried"....notice there hasn't been an effort to stop the IDF/IAF killing Hamas snuffies lately? Bush must've put the muzzle on Colin?
Posted by: Frank G ||
09/01/2003 10:42 Comments ||
Top||
#4
Why do we care which powerless clown is in the Prime Minister spot?
I don't believe we do. It's more form than function.
More than 50 years after it was imposed by the British, the Kenyan Government has lifted the ban against the Mau Mau, the movement that fought against British colonial rule. Mau Mau, or the Land and Freedom Army, have waited a long time to receive recognition. Their attacks on white settlers in retaliation for the massacre of thousands of Africans threw the colonial society into panic and Britain imposed a state of emergency in 1952. About 100 Europeans and 13,000 Africans died in the conflict which ended in 1956. Yet despite playing an obvious role in fighting for independence, no Kenyan government has previously been prepared to lift the ban, partly because the Mau Mau rebellion was in part a civil war. Kenya's first president Jomo Kenyatta was a strong nationalist but he was not a member of Mau Mau despite being convicted of belonging to the movement in what historians regard as a rigged show trial.
It never occurred to me that Jomo wasn't a Mau Mau. Guess you learn something every day...
Posted by: Fred Pruitt ||
09/01/2003 00:13 ||
Comments ||
Link ||
[4 views]
Top|| File under:
#1
Jeez--I thought the Mau Mau mantle was taken up by Sharpton and Jackson
Posted by: Not Mike Moore ||
09/02/2003 5:06 Comments ||
Top||
Libya has reached agreement with France on compensation for the 1989 bombing of a French airliner, Libyan leader Muammar Gadafy said last night, adding that the deal should allow the Lockerbie case to be closed, and that it marked a fresh start in relations with the West.
This should be interesting...
"The problem over the UTA case is over and the Lockerbie case is now behind us. We are opening a new page in our relations with the west," he said in a televised speech on the 34th anniversary of the coup that brought him to power. For the past 10 days, the families of the 170 victims of the French UTA DC-10, which exploded over the Niger desert on September 19 1989, have been negotiating for more money with a charitable fund headed by Col Gadafy's son Saif al-Islam. The need for a deal became urgent when Britain proposed ending the UN sanctions imposed on Libya for the 1988 Lockerbie bombing after Tripoli agreed earlier this month to pay $2.7bn (£1.8bn) to the families of the Lockerbie victims. Lifting the sanctions will clear the way for ending Libya's international isolation. France, a permanent member of the UN security council, threatened to use its veto to block the resolution unless Tripoli increased its compensation to the relatives of those who died on UTA flight 772.
Posted by: Fred Pruitt ||
09/01/2003 00:13 ||
Comments ||
Link ||
[4 views]
Top|| File under:
#1
Whew. For a second, I thought this post would be about a cruise missile sale.
Posted by: Phil Fraering ||
09/01/2003 2:14 Comments ||
Top||
#2
And another sad episode demonstrating the French national character comes to an end
Posted by: Frank G ||
09/01/2003 9:26 Comments ||
Top||
#3
Nope, nothing unilateral here.
Posted by: Baba Yaga ||
09/01/2003 11:39 Comments ||
Top||
#4
OKAY American lives are worth more than French lives
Posted by: Not Mike Moore ||
09/02/2003 5:07 Comments ||
Top||
Israel will not negotiate with any new government hand-picked by Yasser Arafat, the Israeli foreign minister said Sunday in the first public warning to those trying to topple beleaguered Palestinian Prime Minister Mahmoud Abbas. A power struggle between Arafat and Abbas has intensified in recent days, with clashes over key appointments and control of security forces. Several Palestinian legislators, including Arafat allies, are lobbying to oust Abbas later this week after he presents the achievements of his first 100 days in office to parliament. It remains unclear whether the session will be followed by a vote of confidence.
My guess at this point is that it won't...
Israeli Foreign Minister Silvan Shalom suggested Sunday that an already troubled U.S.-backed peace plan, the so-called ``road map,'' would be derailed if Abbas is ousted.
I think that's already happened...
``Israel will not negotiate with a new government formed under the instructions and the influence of Arafat,'' Shalom said after a meeting with EU foreign policy chief Javier Solana in Tel Aviv.
Posted by: Fred Pruitt ||
09/01/2003 00:13 ||
Comments ||
Link ||
[2 views]
Top|| File under:
#1
On second thought, chances for a vote of confidence are probably less than 50-50. After all, Abbas, as ineffectual as he may be, offers them an opportunity to get out of the hole they've dug for themselves.
Paleos never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity.
Posted by: Fred ||
09/01/2003 10:36 Comments ||
Top||
#2
Had the Euromorons taken a stand against Arafat a few months ago, Abbas would be in a better position today. Now, if only Mubarak would say that publically.
A multi-volume chronology and reference guide set detailing three years of the Mexican Drug War between 2010 and 2012.
Rantburg.com and borderlandbeat.com correspondent and author Chris Covert presents his first non-fiction work detailing
the drug and gang related violence in Mexico.
Chris gives us Mexican press dispatches of drug and gang war violence
over three years, presented in a multi volume set intended to chronicle the death, violence and mayhem which has
dominated Mexico for six years.
Rantburg was assembled from recycled algorithms in the United States of America. No
trees were destroyed in the production of this weblog. We did hurt some, though. Sorry.
