Article

2003-09-01 Terror Networks

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Posted by Murat 2003-09-01 3:52:08 AM|| || Front Page|| [5 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 Turkey has several thousand soldiers backed by tanks in northern Iraq

When did this happen? I must have missed the press release.

Posted by Rafael 2003-9-1 5:09:49 AM|| 2003-9-1 5:09:49 AM|| Front Page Top

#2 There are around 3000 troops and several dozens of tanks posted in various places in northern Iraq, main headquarters are in Zaho, Sulaimaniya and Arbil. You must have missed press release because they have been station there a couple of years ago with a continues presence since.

Posted by Murat 2003-9-1 5:24:47 AM|| 2003-9-1 5:24:47 AM|| Front Page Top

#3 Shit, this must be some sort of joke. Murat, did you write this article, as well as post it here?

"Having supported the American war on terrorism, led the peacekeeping mission in Afghanistan and cooperated in the hunt for al-Qaida operatives, Turkey feels entitled to U.S. support in fighting the rebels."
What a hoot - and a load of BS. Hum the trite ballad "Feelings" to yourself as your read.

News Flash for Turkey:
After 50+ years of being a true ally, you recently changed your stripes. You made it absolutely crystal clear that you are certainly not an ally any longer. You made your choices - we are merely acknowledging the facts. What are you to the US now? Hard to say, exactly, but "ally" isn't one of the options on the menu. You want something? You expect something? You demand something? When we were allies, we supported you. Look at the record. But we are no longer allies. Now you are just another asshat Islamic regime blustering and exercising for the entertainment of the local press. Go fuck yourselves. Rinse. Repeat.

And, just for the helluvit, if I were running or advising the US forces in Iraq, your forces would be unceremoniously hauled to the border and dumped across - and any future crossing would be met with the maximum force available - just as we would with any other asshat Islamic regime, such as SyrLeb or Iran.

It's Iraq, not Turkey, and you chose not to be a part of the coalition. In the run-up to the war we addressed every stated concern of our former ally - and created a package of economic incentives guaranteed to make sure you felt little or no pain - as was requested. Money was what you were concerned with, lost trade etc, and so we created a 24K gold parachute for our "ally" - but you refused it - and played your little game with the French and Russians. Not only did you fail to assist us in getting rid of one of history's worst dictators, you actively opposed our efforts to do so. You even went so far as to refuse even passive support by allowing materiel and men to transit your territory and airspace. You aided and abetted Saddam. You had been doing so for more than a decade in violation of UN sanctions, but we didn't bash you for it or abandon you.

But that was only money - the obsession of foolish people. No that's not the big one... here's where we really part company: you cost American lives by denying us the planned Northern front. In fact, in doing so you actively became our enemies from my personal POV. Taking even the smallest of these choices by Turkey into account, it's clear you have no say about the coalition's conduct, or business being in Iraq, or expecting anything from the US. Got problems with the Kurds? Tough shit - deal with it within your own borders, shitheads. Life is hard. It's a lot harder if you're stupid. Turkey's leadership certainly qualifies for that special distinction.

Piss Off. You're fucking asshat Islamic Turks. Get back across the border and stay there. Quit your gutless whiny-assed bitching and expect from the US only that which is your due: at best our indifference; at worst our enmity.

Posted by .com 2003-9-1 8:30:16 AM|| 2003-9-1 8:30:16 AM|| Front Page Top

#4 .com (you still have no name?)

You aided and abetted Saddam. You had been doing so for more than a decade in violation of UN sanctions, but we didn't bash you for it or abandon you.

Be serious pall, every bozo knows that the US undermined its own sanctions as it where American companies who bought most of the sanctioned Iraqi oil.

Got problems with the Kurds? Tough shit - deal with it within your own borders, shitheads. Life is hard. It's a lot harder if you're stupid. Turkey's leadership certainly qualifies for that special distinction.

Hey buddy go tell this to your beloved Bush (& Blair = dumb and dumber), it is your American government who is requesting Turkish contribution to sent â~~occupation~~peace keeping troopsâ, like we sent before in the mess called Afghanistan you created.

Piss Off. You're fucking asshat Islamic Turks. Get back across the border and stay there.

Thatâs unfortunately not up to you we decide where our army stays. By the way whatâs wrong about being Islamic, my religion is Islam nothing wrong with that. But Iâm refraining from calling any religion bad unlike your moronic rampant expressions, see a shrink will ya.

Posted by Murat 2003-9-1 8:51:10 AM|| 2003-9-1 8:51:10 AM|| Front Page Top

#5 American,Souk merchant:"What is it worth to you?Make me an offer,Murat."

Ain't payback a bitch.

Posted by raptor 2003-9-1 8:52:58 AM|| 2003-9-1 8:52:58 AM|| Front Page Top

#6 "Thatâs unfortunately not up to you we decide where our army stays."

(Raptor smiles)Now that sounds like a challenge.Do you really think you can stay in Iraq if the 4I.D. and 101st decide to kick your silly ass out?

Posted by raptor 2003-9-1 9:00:40 AM|| 2003-9-1 9:00:40 AM|| Front Page Top

#7 Now that sounds like a challenge.Do you really think you can stay in Iraq if the 4I.D. and 101st decide to kick your silly ass out?

Itâs more of a fact, the 41.d. and the 101st have to declare a war for that, even your buthead leaders are not that stupid. If you mean would Turkey be a match for the US, the answer is nay thatâs obvious.

Posted by Murat 2003-9-1 9:34:34 AM|| 2003-9-1 9:34:34 AM|| Front Page Top

#8 "every bozo knows that the US undermined its own sanctions as it where American companies who bought most of the sanctioned Iraqi oil"
Prove it. Every time I see the idiotic phrase "everyone knows" my BS detector goes off. C'mon hotshot, show me the proof. I'll bet buying on the spot market is as close as you'll get - and in that case there are numerous entities which have sold and resold the commodity. Turkey and Syria were direct purchasers and abettors. Get a grip and deal with it.

"it is your American government who is requesting Turkish contribution"
I guess you can't read. Or perhaps you read, but can't comprehend. Or comprehend, but just refuse to work within the facts. You ignored:
"And, just for the helluvit, if I were running or advising the US forces in Iraq..." Fuck off.

"unfortunately not up to you we decide where our army stay"
Indeed, it is unfortunate. I'd bounce your forces high enough to clear those mountains.

"whatâs wrong about being Islamic"
Simple personal experience and observations underscore my lack of respect for Islam:
1. I lived and worked in an Islamic society for more than 4 years - and Islam sucks if you're not one of them. Unimaginably badly. No one who hasn't experienced it firsthand seems to really understand jusy how badly. Easily the most hypocritical society I have ever seen. Easily the most hypocritical religion I have ever seen.
2. Look around the world. Find where there is growing unrest and violence. The majority, if not the vast majority, are those places where Islam is either trying to take root - or is in power. Islam, regardless of the incessant apologist BS, is the most virulent agent of violence and intolerance and hatred in existence. It doesn't much matter whether this suits or feels bad or whatever. It is demonstrable and tangible.

"see a shrink will ya"
No thanks.

In 5 more years, many people will be agreeing with me who today are still clinging to their Western belief that everyone is the same and we only need to "understand" Islam better or have some group hugs to fix things and live in peace.

In 10 years they will be militantly anti-Islamic - and only those who are paid agents will still bother trying to put a happy face on a religion with dreams of World Dominion - and subjugation of Western freedom. Look up "implacable" and "enemy" - combine them to find what Islam is to individual freedom. Even the actual "moderate" Muslims are finding themselves under pressure, as many have discovered in those places where the 7th Century Caliphate Phreaks have taken root... they will find that their brother Muslims are far more unforgiving of their moderation, which is tantamount to collaboration - just ask the Paleos - than I am of their failure to denounce the jihadis. I merely insult them for their cowardice. The Caliphate Phreaks will gut them. You asked. I answered. There's no point in debating Islam, as truth is Islam's first victim. Time will prove me right - and I can weather the disagreement and derision of the gutless until then.

Posted by .com 2003-9-1 9:39:01 AM|| 2003-9-1 9:39:01 AM|| Front Page Top

#9 .com,I do like your style.

Posted by raptor 2003-9-1 9:55:25 AM|| 2003-9-1 9:55:25 AM|| Front Page Top

#10 .com - I stand by everything you ranted, awesome...

Posted by Frank G 2003-9-1 10:20:08 AM|| 2003-9-1 10:20:08 AM|| Front Page Top

#11 Tanx - it's actually very sad, Bro, but I mean every damned word. :-)

Such is life with ~~Zugzug and The Cave Thugs~~ ~~Atila's Hordes~~ ~~Alexander's Grateness~~ ~~Rome's Legions~~ ~~Napolean's Phantasies~~ ~~Nazisim & Fascism~~ ~~Japanese Imperialism~~ ~~Communism of All Flavors~~ ~~Multilateralism~~ ~~PC Phoolishness~~ Islamists. All of them have to be faced and defeated if we are to survive as free men. I'm sure the far better historians of Rantburg will be happy to point out my omissions - and I gratefully acknowledge and accept them, but I don't accept that I'm wrong about Islam either belonging in this list of tyrants and enemies of freedom or being the next major challenge to its survival. Time will take care of that objection.

Posted by .com 2003-9-1 10:21:53 AM|| 2003-9-1 10:21:53 AM|| Front Page Top

#12 Urat,one more thing.
As far as nay(neighhhh)is concerned,you are speaking from the wrong end of the horse.

Posted by raptor 2003-9-1 10:24:09 AM|| 2003-9-1 10:24:09 AM|| Front Page Top

#13 .com

As secretary of defense during the Persian Gulf War, Richard B. Cheney played a key role in the U.S.-led military coalition that forced Iraq to retreat from Kuwait. But as chief executive officer of Halliburton Co., a Dallas-based maker of oil equipment, Cheney recently held a major stake in Dresser-Rand and Ingersoll-Dresser Pump Co., two American players in the reconstruction of Iraq's oil industry.
http://www.gulfwarvets.com/aiding.htm

I lived and worked in an Islamic society for more than 4 years - and Islam sucks if you're not one of them.
Which country, you sound to me like a Jew between Palestinians, two groups sickly biased.

than I am of their failure to denounce the jihadis. I merely insult them for their cowardice.

Whether you donât know history or your skull is too thick to recognize and your self praised knowledge about Islam sucks. Ever heard of Ataturk who abolished the caliphate back in 1924 just to get rid of the Jihadis from Islam? The only bad luck is that the caliphate was the spiritual leader of the Sunni and not the Shia (so nobody is entitled to call for Jihad for the Sunni), the Shia spiritual is called the Ayatollah.

I as Muslim despise those abusers of religion, Jihadis as you prefer to call them even more than you do. They are not representing the Islam like that lunatic from Texas Waco does not represent Christianity, but you donât seem the understand that, maybe it is above your comprehension.

Posted by Murat 2003-9-1 10:27:55 AM|| 2003-9-1 10:27:55 AM|| Front Page Top

#14 "have to declare a war for that, even your buthead leaders are not that stupid"
No, you're right... but yours are. You could advise them to try the Iranian's version of foreign policy: wave your arms a lot, jump up and down a lot, assume we are stupid and lie to us, try to go nuke after saying the instant you get your hands on one you'll wipe out Israel. These things are guaranteed to make your country show up on our radar, no matter how imperfect it may be. Then you could meet Mr TLAM and Mr Abrahms.

Posted by .com 2003-9-1 10:31:59 AM|| 2003-9-1 10:31:59 AM|| Front Page Top

#15 Why are the Turks fighting the Khurds? I thought all moslems were brothers in an endless jihad against the Greater and Lesser Satans.

Posted by Super Hose 2003-9-1 10:33:51 AM|| 2003-9-1 10:33:51 AM|| Front Page Top

#16 "...the mess called Afghanistan you created."-Yeah, it was SO much better before we got there.

Posted by Uncle Joe 2003-9-1 10:34:29 AM|| 2003-9-1 10:34:29 AM|| Front Page Top

#17 Why are the Turks fighting the Khurds?

Another question of low intellect. Answer Turks are not fighting Kurds but only terror groups among them. PKK is also on the terror list of the US FYI

Posted by Murat 2003-9-1 10:45:09 AM|| 2003-9-1 10:45:09 AM|| Front Page Top

#18 Spot on, .com! Excellent response!

But talking about Islamic hypocrisy is fruitless: I have yet to find a decnunciation of hypocrisy in the Quran, indicating that they don't even have an operational definition of it. How else can you explain red faced screams and furious hopping about when we do to them what they did to us? (I've got a copy of the Quran, Murat. How about a sura, forbidding hypocrisy to Muslims in the same way Christ forbade it to Christians, to set me straight?)

However, I have to agree with Murat that the Kurds should not be fighting in Turkey, attacking civilians. If what he says is true, there's a nice largish Turkish military force already in Iraq they should be attacking. Attacking military==freedom fighter. Attacking civilians==terrorist.

Posted by Ptah 2003-9-1 10:57:54 AM|| [http://www.crusaderwarcollege.org] 2003-9-1 10:57:54 AM|| Front Page Top

#19 Since I lived in Dallas and worked in the Oil & Gas industry for more than 20 years, I'd guess I know a bit about Halliburton, et al. Your claim was that:
"American companies who bought most of the sanctioned Iraqi oil"
Halliburton, where it is involved in the O&G industry (that's not all they do), is an equipment and services company - it doesn't buy oil, it sells to those who produce and refine and distribute it. You do not know dick about it other than what your half-truth news outlets tell you. I worked for Mobil, Exxon, and Unocal at various times. THEY buy oil, son. I wrote reservoir simulators and drilling program simulators, among other things, for them. I even worked on the Saudi Royal Family Reservoir Model, which was written by Mobil R&D.

I just left Saudi Arabia - it was an American amongst Wahabbis, to use your phrasing.

I heard of Ataturk. I also heard he got tired of his jihadis and did them in. So do the Turks, the regular people, feel the same? See below for my doubts regards your leadership in this regard.

As for the Sunnis, they split from the Shia about the line of ascension after Mohammed: the Shia said it had to be a blood descendant and the Sunnis said it should be the "holiest" cleric - or so the hundreds of Muslims I've known have all told me. If you want to rewrite that story for me with a different ending, go ahead.

Assuming I was told (and what I've read supports this understanding) correctly, killing off the Sunni Caliphate wouldn't stop them from selecting new clerics to lead them who are free to interpret the Qu'uran any way they please - including calling for religious jihad (a misused word according to many sources) against anyone who stands in their way or is deemed a threat to the growth of Islam.

If you despise the jihadis, then that is something we agree upon. As for my comprehension, big mouth, you have to do more that just cast aspersions. Where are the Turkish Islamic Clerics denouncing the jihadis? Why do your leaders sit on their hands in the same regard? Did your leadership collaborate with the Iranian Rev Guards who quietly helped the Al Qaeda shitheads escape Iran about 10 days ago?

The article you posted claimed that Turkey has assisted in the WoT - name the actions taken. Name the asshats you've collected. Educate us on what Turkey has done.

Everything I said about Turkey's actions regards Iraq is true - you skip all the inconvenient details such as facts and go for soft targets, and get much of that wrong (Cheney / Halliburton), like the gutless jihadis.

Show me Turkey is anything but an undeclared enemy of the US, now. If you don't care about what America thinks or that you broke our alliance, then don't bother. However, if you'd like to rewrite Islamic history for us, please do.

Posted by .com 2003-9-1 11:04:21 AM|| 2003-9-1 11:04:21 AM|| Front Page Top

#20 .com - I agree with what you say. But, you've used the invective "asshat" three times now in the same thread. May I suggest other names for Murat? How about assclown or smacktard? These both seem appropriate.

Posted by spiffo 2003-9-1 11:23:12 AM|| 2003-9-1 11:23:12 AM|| Front Page Top

#21 Re to mr. Big mouth

As for my comprehension, big mouth, you have to do more that just cast aspersions. Where are the Turkish Islamic Clerics denouncing the jihadis? Why do your leaders sit on their hands in the same regard? Did your leadership collaborate with the Iranian Rev Guards who quietly helped the Al Qaeda shitheads escape Iran about 10 days ago?

Turkish clerics just care for the all day mosque routine work as they should do, religion and politics over here are since 1924 separate issues and denouncing work is done by our politicians unlike you are used to from Saudi Arabia maybe. Our leaders sitting on their hands, buddy you are blind or something, Turkey is one of the few countries who fights terror intensively (PKK, Hezbollah, DHKPC etc. etc.).

Collaboration with Iranian rev. Guards, where the hell are you talking about.

As for the US seeing Turkey as an ally or not is their problem, Turkey is not a doormat with a welcome sign on it to be walked over whenever it pleases the US. The US where not granted to pass thru Turkey, so what.

Posted by Murat 2003-9-1 11:29:59 AM|| 2003-9-1 11:29:59 AM|| Front Page Top

#22 Er um, Murat ? I think if you just look at the overall sentiment of this conversation, you can guess that the U.S. is in no mood to help Turkey right now, even though yes, they are an ally and do plenty of great things. Unfortunately, Turkey will have to wait for our balls to stop aching after that recent little kick.

Posted by Anonymous 2003-9-1 11:43:04 AM|| 2003-9-1 11:43:04 AM|| Front Page Top

#23 As has been ask before,Urat.Where are all these "Moderate Muslims"?
Why do we not hear thier voice denouncing,loud and often,the Jihadies slauhtering people who do not covert,pay Dimi taxes,and bow down to thier(Jihadies)will?
Why is it that"Moderate Muslims"are not actively fighting,infiltrating,or turnning into law enfocement officials those who slughter in the name of Islam?
"Moderate Muslims"lack of resolve in combating Islamic terrorisam makes me suspect thier words.
"Moderate Muslems"attempts to be appoligists for Islamic terrorists is no longer effective.I ain't buying it.
"Moderate Muslims"trying to lay blame on American Policies and the Evil Zionists don't wash.
I am forced to conclude that"Moderate Muslems":
a)do not exist
b)are cowards and fear thier own people more than anyone else
c)or belive in the Jihadist cause and are (1)just too cowardly to be open and above board with thier support(2)are acting as a Fith Column and are just waiting for thier activation orders.
Until till I see and hear active denunciation and destruction of the terrorists I am forced to conclude there are no"Moderate Muslims".

Posted by raptor 2003-9-1 11:51:34 AM|| 2003-9-1 11:51:34 AM|| Front Page Top

#24 Urat please continue backing up. You are nearly in the corner.

Posted by Anomalous 2003-9-1 12:00:07 PM|| 2003-9-1 12:00:07 PM|| Front Page Top

#25 "Turkey is one of the few countries who fights terror intensively"
Tell me about Turkish actions against Hezbollah. Nah, on the other hand, I no longer care cuz you would just make shit up - and offer nothing of substance, no proof, as this entire thread demonstrates clearly.

"Collaboration with Iranian rev. Guards, where the hell are you talking about."
Took me awhile to locate them with my little dial-up connection:
http://www.rantburg.com/Default.asp?D=8/16/03&C=-Short%20Attention%20Span%20Theater-#17686
http://www.siteinstitute.org/exposing.asp?id=139

"As for the US seeing Turkey as an ally or not is their problem, Turkey is not a doormat with a welcome sign on it to be walked over whenever it pleases the US. The US where not granted to pass thru Turkey, so what."
Ah. Ally, indeed. We never treated Turkey as a doormat - keep your insecurity and inferiority complex under control - that's your personal problem. We were once real allies. The US lauded, rightfully, Turkey as an ally against Communism - and the US was, hands down, your best friend in the West. Recently, we immediately came to Turkey's defense in NATO when the Phrench blocked sending defensive materiel to Turkey (Patriot missiles) prior to Iraq. Now it looks like that was part of the little play, but no matter - we acted like your ally becuae we thought we were allies. Turkey, immediately thereafter, began making demands and crying about the economic fallout of a war - so we responded with generosity... and Turkey stonewalled us about the economic pkg until the hour was too late for the 4ID to get in theater in time. You cost American lives. Each soldier is worth 10 of you, Murat. Perhaps infintely more, on second thought, as they had balls and honor. Re: Turkey - So now we know what to expect. You're the new Phrench toadie in your neighbohood. You are, indeed, an assclown and smacktard, as spiffo suggests. Had we done any of the same to you, you would scream your bloody head off. Fuck you. Now it sez "Welcome" as far as I'm concerned.

So, once again, you don't challenge ANY facts, you just play your usual innuendo and half-assed tit-for-tat crap. We're done. You suck as a debator - not worthy.

Fuck Turkey.

Posted by .com 2003-9-1 12:15:16 PM|| 2003-9-1 12:15:16 PM|| Front Page Top

#26 Murat,where was your vilifacation of the Muslims who blew-up the Jordanian Embasy,killing Muslems?
Where was your denonceation of the Muslims who blew-up the UN compound killing Muslims and UN humanitarian personel?
Where is you condenmation of the Muslisms who blew-up the Ali Mosque in Najaf killing Muslems?

What did we Americans hear out your mouth"It's America's fault"?
Those were not Americans who died.
It was not Americans killing"Peacefull,Moderate Muslims"
I stand by my previous post,Dipshit.

Posted by raptor 2003-9-1 12:47:44 PM|| 2003-9-1 12:47:44 PM|| Front Page Top

#27 raptor - I think we should ignore U-rat and go collect some nice titty pictures and check out the other threads, now. Whaddya think? ;-)

Posted by .com 2003-9-1 12:51:51 PM|| 2003-9-1 12:51:51 PM|| Front Page Top

#28 Show me Turkey is anything but an undeclared enemy of the US, now.

1. Turkey is helping the U.S. in Afghanistan:

The lead nations on ISAF:

United Kingdom, December 2001 - June 2002 (ISAF I)
Turkey, June 2002 - February 2003 (ISAF II)
Germany/Netherlands, February 2003 - August 2003 (ISAF III)
NATO, August 2003 -

U.S. Praises Turkey's Decision to Command Security Force in Afghanistan

2. Turkey is an ally of Israel:

It is a well-known fact that Turkey and Israel are each other's closest ally in the Middle East...For Turkey, relations with Israel underscore the government's commitment to secularism and the country's unique position as the only Muslim member of NATO. (Foreign Policy Association)

Turkey's ability to speak to both sides of this bitterly divided Arab-Israeli issue constitutes an important element of hope in a dangerous and difficult situation. When the process can get back to the point of serious negotiations, Israel's confidence in its relationship with Turkey will increase its willingness to take risks for peace. (Paul Wolfowitz, Deputy defense secretary)

Israel, Turkey, US hold joint sea exercises

3. Turkey is against terrorist acts of Islamist fanatics:

Turkey Harshly Condemns Suicide Bombings In Israel

...

I am not posting to support Turkey or its decisions during the Iraq war. I just want to point out that the concept of "international relations" is quite different than "relations between individuals". There is a 50 years of strategic alliance between the U.S and Turkey, which is based on mutual interests of both countries. It is bigger than Iraq.

Please go and read the transcripts of AEI;s conference: U.S.-Turkish Relations: Bump in the Road or Permanent Detour?

R. Perle: "...only want to make one point this morning, and that is that the relationship between the U.S. and Turkey, despite the inability to get the two countries together on a specific issue, which was the extent to which Turkey would accommodate the flow of American ground forces through Turkish to a northern front, is sound and healthy. This was a bump in the road, if you like; a pothole, if you like. But it does not fundamentally affect the relationship between two countries that have been friends and allies for a long time and continue to be friends and allies.

I'm not always so forgiving. Other countries that disappointed us will not be readily forgiven because the disappointment in some other cases was the product of a deliberate policy decision to separate that country from the goals and objectives and purposes of the United States in dealing with Saddam Hussein. And I don't believe that that is a fair description of Turkish actions and policies with respect to Saddam Hussein or American policy with respect to Iraq. Rather, it seems to me, it was a fiasco--the product of failed communications, inadequate understanding of details of the situation, and a misreading practically daily of the state of play between the two governments. (Richard Perle)

Posted by Stephen 2003-9-1 1:02:44 PM|| 2003-9-1 1:02:44 PM|| Front Page Top

#29 Damn fine idea,.co.Urat's logic ship is shot full of holes and sinking by the bow.
Where are you headed?

Posted by raptor 2003-9-1 1:03:46 PM|| 2003-9-1 1:03:46 PM|| Front Page Top

#30 From Council on Foreign Relations:

What role is Turkey playing in the war on terrorism?
Turkeyâthe only NATO member with an almost entirely Muslim populationâhas been an important U.S. partner in the war on terrorism. Since September 11, Turkey has provided military support, tracked suspect financial networks, and participated in the International Security Assistance Force (ISAF), the peacekeeping force that operates in and around the Afghan capital, Kabul. In June 2002, Turkey took command of ISAF.
Turkey has argued that the devastating attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon underscore the wisdom of its own tough crackdown on terrorist groups, which before September 11 had spurred international criticism and remains a major obstacle to Turkeyâs bid to join the European Union. While Turkey supports the pursuit of Osama bin Ladenâs al-Qaeda network and other international terrorist groups, it worries that an invasion of neighboring Iraqâa possible future step in the U.S.-led war on terrorismâmight embolden its Kurdish separatists and undermine regional stability.

Turkey, now governed by a party with Islamist roots, is also seen by many experts as a model for a Muslim democratic state.

How did Turkey respond to September 11?
With support for the United States. Turkish officials condemned the attacks as a crime against humanity and supported NATOâs unanimous and unprecedented decision to invoke Article V of its charter, which calls an attack against any one NATO member an attack against them all. Turkey also argued that the September 11 attacks showed that Turkeyâs own tough counterterrorist policies are warranted. Turkish President Ahmet Necdet Sezer said, âThe attacks on the U.S. have shown how correct Turkey is in her stance against terrorism.â

Is Turkey worried about al-Qaeda?
Yes. Modern Turkey was founded in 1923, succeeding the Ottoman Empire, a sprawling, ailing Muslim realm whose demise remains on bin Ladenâs list of anti-Western grievances. The new Turkish republic was built on secular institutions, and Turkeyâs leadership has thus sought to contain Islam as a political force. Alerts have been issued about al-Qaeda operatives in Turkey and plans to attack the U.S. and British embassies in Ankara, the Turkish capital. Turkish police also have expressed concerns that al-Qaeda operatives fleeing Afghanistan might pass through Turkey on their way to Europe or the Middle East; in February 2002, Turkish police arrested two Palestinians and one Jordanian suspected of being al-Qaeda members planning to attack Israel. In April 2002, Turkish police detained four Turkish members of a group called the Union of Imams, which Turkish authorities accuse of giving logistical support to al-Qaeda. Experts say Turkey is also worried that Sunni Muslim militants in northern Iraq may have links to al-Qaeda.

What role has Turkey played in Afghanistan?
Turkeyâs involvement in Afghanistan long predates September 11. Even before September 11, Turkey backed the Northern Alliance in its fight against the Talibanâboth because Turkey sees itself as a model secular Muslim nation and disliked the Talibanâs brand of Islamism and because one of Afghanistanâs four main ethnic groups, the Uzbeks, has some linguistic and ethnic ties to Turks. Following the September 11 attacks, Turkey gave the United States overflight rights, helped with airplane refueling from the Incirlik air base in south-central Turkey, and provided intelligence. Turkey is also the lone Muslim country in ISAF, the U.N. peacekeeping force in and around the Afghan capital of Kabul.

How big is the Turkish presence in the U.N. peacekeeping force?
Turkey initially deployed about 300 special forces troops in and around Kabul. In June 2002, after taking command of ISAF, Turkey had 1,400 troops in Afghanistan, making it the largest contingent in the peacekeeping force. There are about 4,500 troops in ISAF, mostly European.

Posted by . 2003-9-1 1:22:40 PM|| 2003-9-1 1:22:40 PM|| Front Page Top

#31 Stephen - Thx! I'll read these links carefully. The apparent loss of Turkey as our ally was easily one of the most devastating aspects of Iraq, IMO. If the stories of their being led astray and the new govt being incredibly naive, etc. are accurate, then that is sort of interesting, but hardly good news. I agree the 50 year alliance was a bulwark against communism - and regardless of Murat's lack of understanding, the US truly valued Turkey - as I tried to point out. What it is today, however, is a rather large unknown. Perle's comments are interesting, but seem far out of proportion in their blissful dismissal. I already knew about their relationship with Israel, but that was created prior to the current Islamic regime. Now? I hope they kept their heads better there than they did with the US regards Iraq. Their contributions to ISAF are rather small - and they seem to be far more consumed with their internal terrorism, some of which is self-inflicted mishandling and cruelty. Well, I'll go read and keep my powder dry for another day. Thank you for stepping in with some substance - I appreciate it!

Murat - You haven't been saved - you're still a fool, regardless.

Raptor - I'll email you a bunch of freebie links!

Posted by .com 2003-9-1 1:38:25 PM|| 2003-9-1 1:38:25 PM|| Front Page Top

#32 Murat, please, don't make us angry. You wouldn't like it very much if you made us angry. We might lose our "perspective" and do something nasty, like

1. Take out ALL of Turkey's airfields, even the civilian ones, in 24 hours, using Tomahawks and special anti-airfield munitions.

2. Take out the two towers supporting that nice bridge across the Bosphorous, and watch the rest collapse into the straits, effectively blocking them from use.

3. Mining every harbor you have, including even the most podunk fishing village, with mines so sophisticated you can't fight against them.

4. Wipe the force you have in Iraq off the face of the earth, using a combination of Warthogs, Buffs, JDAMS, and special munitions. The wounded will cry in vain for relief, because nobody can move two feet to help them without triggering another boom.

That's just for starters, little butt-boy. The United States has learned (very painfully) not to fight with less than our full potential - ever. The only serious threat to our Abrams tanks are our own A-10's. The air will belong to us - give up any thought of flying combat missions against us - it's a waste of time and resources.

We went easy on Iraq, because we didn't want to damage the infrastructure or cause a lot of damage we'd have to repair. We won't have any constraints if we have to play hardball with Turkey. I don't think you have any clue what "total warfare" is all about, but we do, and have been practicing it for 50 years.

Turkey was a friend, and an ally in Korea. Turkey was a fellow member of NATO and an ally through the fall of the Soviet Union. Lately, Turkey's begun playing the Islamofascist power politics game. That's a no-no. A democratic, moderate Turkey has been our ally. That government hardly exists any more. Until it returns, and we learn through its actions to trust it again, Turkey is one big question-mark. It wouldn't take much to turn that question-mark into a targeting circle. It would be wise to be very, very careful.

Posted by Old Patriot 2003-9-1 1:40:26 PM|| [http://users.codenet.net/mweather/default.htm] 2003-9-1 1:40:26 PM|| Front Page Top

#33 It's not time to give up on Turkey just yet. They have that whole islamic thing to worry about. You know, speakout get blown up. That can have a very sobering effect on people. My rant yesterday about moderate muslims taking this islamazoid freakfest seriously and taking it to the streets. Ever thought about blowing up some of the freaks Murat? Do you know any hardliners? Probably not huh? Is Turkey as commited to a free Kurdisville as a place for the Kurds as other muslim countries are about the paleos. I don't deny that Turkey has a problem with Kurds as I bet the Kurds have some problems with Turkey.

Posted by Lucky 2003-9-1 1:56:56 PM|| 2003-9-1 1:56:56 PM|| Front Page Top

#34 Whatever you think about relations between the U.S. and Turkey, the PUK's history of terrorism, with tranzi support, requires cooperation in wiping them out. Turkey should have shut Ocalan up despite EU anti-death penalty pressures. Now PUK is set to destabilize the north, having turned down a generous amnesty.

On this one, our interests coincide. Can we just keep the Iraqi Kurds, and the Turks, from being sucked in to a confrontation?

Posted by Infrequenter 2003-9-1 2:05:19 PM|| 2003-9-1 2:05:19 PM|| Front Page Top

#35 This comment thread is waaay out of control.

First, as Stephen points out, the Turks have been helpful in the fight against al Qaeda, in Afghanistan and elsewhere. The Turkish military, that is. The current political leadership in Ankara I'm not so sure about.

.com, Old Patriot, et al. We don't want to screw with the Turks. I repeat, we don't want to screw with the Turks. I do not think that fighting Turkey is a viable option, especially now. The US has too much to do with not enough men. And the Turks are fierce fighters. There are more important priorities.

Murat, First, you really need to get off the oil thing. It is true that the US was the largest buyer of Iraqi oil. But that was all done under the terms of the UN sanctions. The oil the US bought wasn't smuggled out. That's not undermining the sanctions.

Second, You can't have it both ways. You complain that the United States hasn't solved the problem of Kurdish terrorism, and then turn around and say "The US where not granted to pass thru Turkey, so what."

Turkish refusal to grant US forces passage was the reason the US was forced to cooperate rely on Kurdish groups. If 4ID moves through Turkey, there is no need for the US to rely on the Kurds during the war. In fact, if Ankara had played its cards right, there probably would have been Turkish troops in the invasion force.

Hey Murat, what is the reason the archfiend Ocalon won't be executed? Answer: Because Turkey sold out to the Euro-wimps. The Turkish political leadership decided Brussels' opinion was more important than the national interest.

Hey Murat: what's the reason Turkey refused US troops in early 2003? Answer: The Turkish political leadership sold out to the Euro-wimps. Chirac told Ankara that if they allowed US troops to move through, they could kiss the dream of joining the EU goodbye.

That said, thank you for posting the article, Murat. Terrorists must be stopped, Kurdish or otherwise.

Posted by Pete Stanley 2003-9-1 2:17:09 PM|| 2003-9-1 2:17:09 PM|| Front Page Top

#36 An interesting article from Brookings Institute:

"Yet the AKP is determined to improve damaged relations with the superpower. It is an irony of history that a pro-Islamic Turkish political party is trying so hard to have good relations with both the United States and the European Union. Even more paradoxical is the fact that the AKP is pursuing such a pro-EU and pro-US agenda despite the obstructionism of Turkeyâs Kemalist-secular pro-Western establishment. It is as if roles have been switched and the conventional Islamist-Westernist paradigm turned upside-down."

Many people (wrongly) believe that is the Islamists in Turkey who refused the U.S. troops. In fact it is the secularists!. Only if 3 members of the CHP (the secular party in opposition) had supported the government, the outcome would have been different (all members of CHP voted against it). Compare it to the Conservative Party in Britain - without their help the U.S. would be all alone.

Posted by . 2003-9-1 2:31:03 PM|| 2003-9-1 2:31:03 PM|| Front Page Top

#37 Also read this:

America may not need Turkey to contain Iraq any more, but it would be a great mistake to conclude that it no longer needs Turkey at all. ... On Iraq, Turkey could now offer more than just a launching pad for American air strikes, but the intimate knowledge of the country that Americans sorely lack, restoration of a valuable trading relationship, and help with the reconstruction of an infrastructure that Turkish companies helped to build in the first place. With the United States now desperate for allies to help stabilize Iraq, Turkey's large armyâhaving just led the United Nations stabilization force in Afghanistanâcould also come in handy, in the southern part of Iraq where any differences over the Kurdish and Turkoman minorities can be avoided.

Turkey could also play a constructive role alongside the United States in the Middle East peace process. As one of the only countries in the world that maintains excellent relations with both Israel and the Palestinians, it could engage with both sides and help provide legitimacy to the painful compromises that will be necessary to achieve peace.

Perhaps most importantly, the United States still needs Turkey to succeed internally, as a demonstration to the world that democracy and prosperity in a Muslim country are possible.

Posted by . 2003-9-1 2:32:39 PM|| 2003-9-1 2:32:39 PM|| Front Page Top

#38 By the way whatâs wrong about being Islamic, my religion is Islam nothing wrong with that. Posted by: Murat 2003-9-1 8:51:10 AM

Let's see:
1) Its a religion of violence against unarmed civillians;
2) Its a religion that oppresses women;
3) Its a religion that endorses hypocrisy rather than prohibiting it;
4) Its a religion that breeds cowardice among its "moderates" (how else can one reconcile the astounding SILENCE that comes from the moderates when one of their more radical brethren blows civillians up?);
5) Its a religion that ignores education and science (go ahead, name me just ONE leading university in a muslim country that is respected worldwide as a leader in scholastic endeavrors);
6) Its a religion that teaches NO TOLERANCE for those that don't believe as they do;

I could go on, but what would be the point? Honest debate is yet another thing that Muslims place no value upon.

Posted by Flaming Sword 2003-9-1 2:51:06 PM|| 2003-9-1 2:51:06 PM|| Front Page Top

#39 Murat,

My understanding of the Khurdish tribal area is that there are several autonomous Khurdish groups in Iran, Iraq and Turkey that are funded from outside influences.

Currently, Sadaam is no longer in a position to destabilize the Turkish Khurds. I would expect that this is a good thing for the Turkish governemnt.

It is doubtful that anyone in Iran has extra dollars to fund hatred outside of the Shia area of Iraq. The Iraqi Khurds are currently involved helping us and don't have a close relationship with the Turkish Khurds. Their relationship with other Khurdish tribes would be more closely described as rivalry fostered by years of different outside interests dropping money and guns into an uneasy area of the world.

With all the normal destabilizing influences focussed elsewhere, now, would be a primo time for Turkey to develop a working relationship with Turkish Khurds. Hopefully, that is what the amnesty initiative is about.

As for dropping Turkish troops into the middle of Iraq, that is an incredibly bad idea hatched by someone who needs to be fired immediately. While Turkish tropps would be fully willing and uniquely qualified in driving with us up and down RPG alley looking for a fight, peacekeeping is not an appropriate use of Turkish troops.

The Turks reamin of the shortlist of trully warlike fighters. Let's not blunt the tip of the spear by involving them in our little Iraqui hugfest.

Posted by Super Hose 2003-9-1 2:54:22 PM|| 2003-9-1 2:54:22 PM|| Front Page Top

#40 raptor:

Tell me about Turkish actions against Hezbollah

1. Turkish security officials confirmed to the English-language daily, Turkish Daily News, in March last year, that Turkey worked with Israel to counter the Hezbollah in Lebanon link

2. Cooperation between Turkish-Israeli intelligence:

In 1999, the London-based Foreign Report weekly bulletin said that Israeli intelligence, the Mossad, had expanded greatly its base in Turkey and opened branches for two other departments in Tel Aviv. The London-based al-Quds al-Arabi daily quoted Foreign Report as saying that Mossad carried out several spy operations and plans through its elements stationed in Istanbul and Ankara, where it received support and full cooperation from the Turkish government.

It also reported that, according to the military cooperation agreement between the Mossad and its Turkish counterpart, the MAT, which was signed in 1993 by former Turkish Foreign Minister Hekmet Citen during his visit to Israel, the Mossad had provided Turkey with plans aiding the country in closing its border with Iraq, as well as being involved in the arrest of Ocalan. link

p.s. Do you know that Turkey was the first Moslem state to recognize an ominously isolated Israel in 1949?

Posted by . 2003-9-1 2:58:37 PM|| 2003-9-1 2:58:37 PM|| Front Page Top

#41 The problem is, Turkey is trying to play both sides of the street, at our expense.

We asked for help - Turkey balked.
Turkey asked for help - the US made it happen.
THe Turks asked that the US keep the lid on the Kurds - the US has, for the most part, and as well as it can, done so.
The US asked, in turn, for Turkey to restrain itself over involvement in the Kurdish territories of Iraq - and we captured a dozen Turk special forces in Kirkuk.
See a disconnect here? THAT's the problem. "Good relations" is a two-way street - not "All for me and none for you". Turkey has done several things in a row to aggravate us, and most of those things were deliberate, aimed at causing us serious difficulties and to wreck the US efforts in Iraq. That's not the work of an ally.

Posted by Old Patriot 2003-9-1 3:02:58 PM|| [http://users.codenet.net/mweather/default.htm] 2003-9-1 3:02:58 PM|| Front Page Top

#42 Pete . Stephen - Hang on, guys... you're certainly being generous. The 6 individuals detained (indicated in the article from Stephen) which may have been linked to AlQ is the tiniest drop in the bucket of what has passed thru Turkey. You don't get a broad-brush 'fighting AlQ' attaboy for that effort.

As for the fierce Turkish fighters - everyone is fierce. Afghan, Arab, Iranian, the Swiss, yadda3, the lot. Everybody's vewy vewy fierce and we shouldn't screw with any of 'em. Are you seriously selling me today's data - or something from your personal past - or something you read as a kid - or the script from Midnight Express? C'mon - haven't we heard this every time we have a problem with anyone? And I mean anyone? So, are you saying that when facing a no-shit modern army these guys can kick our ass? Or that they won't turn tail and run? Too few boots? Ok. But that's not related to this (insert country of the moment)'s fierce fighters. That's an old song and it don't play no more.

BTW, I did not suggest we invade Turkey, but that Turkey get it's ass out of Iraq. They chose not only not to participate - they chose to sabotage the US. They have no business being there - and as the little episode with their SF a month or so ago demonstrates, they cannot be trusted. No one here supports terrorists of any stripe, including PUK. They will get cooperation from US when we have time for it. Meanwhile, they should be chillin' at home. I would like to hear you say it's OK with you that, with no Northern front, the US suffered more casualties. Not OK with me, I assure you. There was no hammer to strike the anvil and we have the Sunni Triangle intact as a result. That's not something you like about the Turk's game, is it? It was merely their greed...

I certainly agree that the Euros played them like a bad violin - and they tossed our alliance in the dustbin for a shot at the EU - which, of course, they'll probably never get. I referred to it as their incredibly naive leadership. It's still not good news that they were such easy dupes and had so little regard for their sworn alliance. Their current military leadership is a shadow of their predessors regards honor and commitment.

I'll read the stuff, judge the sources, and figure out what makes sense to me, but just cuz you guys posted this info does not automatically mean anything - other than you certainly value them more than they value the US. And that isn't something to be happy about. Consider some of these points while I read yours and assimilate it.

Posted by .com 2003-9-1 3:08:54 PM|| 2003-9-1 3:08:54 PM|| Front Page Top

#43 Old Patriot: We asked for help - Turkey balked

Have any of you seen these resolutions of the U.S. Congress?

H. Con. Res. 327: Commending the Republic of Turkey and the State of Israel for the continued strengthening of their political, economic, cultural, and strategic partnership and for their actions in support of the war on terrorism.

H. Con. Res. 437: Recognizing the Republic of Turkey for its cooperation in the campaign against global terrorism, for its commitment of forces and assistance to Operation Enduring freedom and subsequent missions in Afghanistan... resolved by the House of Representatives that Congressârecognizes the Republic of Turkey for its steadfast commitment to, and cooperation in, the war against terrorism...

Go ahead, click the link and read the contributions of Turkey on WoT.
link

Posted by Stephen 2003-9-1 3:30:49 PM|| 2003-9-1 3:30:49 PM|| Front Page Top

#44 .com,
what I hear you saying is that since the Gulf War, you would consider the following governments to be more pro-American than Turkey:

1. Jordan
2. Qatar
3. Kuwaitt
4. Free Khurds of Iraq

Your probably right, but Turkey has still been more friendly than our nominal allies like:
1. France/Belgium
2. Canada
3. Mexico
4. Germany
5. Saudi Arabia

It would probably just be best if the U.S. made sympathetic noises toward Turkey and didn't turn our backs to them.

Posted by Super Hose 2003-9-1 3:31:21 PM|| 2003-9-1 3:31:21 PM|| Front Page Top

#45 Yo, . (that's a dot) -

Your links are two or three-edged and barely support your statements, if at all. The first speaks of the mess that is Turkey, in fact. It is not full of praise, but problems - and ends with a thud. Who is "Dr" Sam Vaknin? An Israeli author selling books - and all over the map, otherwise. It will take time to figure him out to see if his analysis makes sense.
http://samvak.tripod.com/brief-turkeyisrael01.html

The second link is IOL, one of my favorite totally fucking insane moonbat sites. Read anything you like, but don't take IOL seriously. These are flat-worlders and Elders of Zion believers.

Posted by .com 2003-9-1 3:32:02 PM|| 2003-9-1 3:32:02 PM|| Front Page Top

#46 .com
I do not admire Turkish government. It just seems to me that Turkey and Israel are cooperating against terrorism and that was the whole purpose of my post. Turkey may be in a mess, but it does not change this. I found IOL link seaching yahoo. That's it.

Posted by . 2003-9-1 3:43:35 PM|| 2003-9-1 3:43:35 PM|| Front Page Top

#47 Super Hose - Nope. Not at all what I said - and I'm perplexed where you came up with this!

I wouldn't give a plug nickel for the first 3 Arab states. We'll have a base in Qatar as long as it pleases them. It's also the home of Al Jazeera. The Kuwaitis are crazier than the Saudis - I wouldn't work there, though I had an offer. The joke in SA is that they try to out-Saudi the Saudis... not a recommendation. Jordan. A paper-thin shell of control over a virulent mass of Paleos - their true home is the Hashemite Kingdom, of course. Palestine is an invention. And riding a Harley, though I do dearly love the hogs, is not enough for me to be suckered into thinking Abdullah is doing anything more than riding the tiger.

The Kurds have demonstrated that they are real, however. They prospered under the no-fly policies when we kept Saddam off their necks and they have proven themselves far and away the most civilized native group in Iraq. They have maintained a national identity for over 500 yrs inspite of being handed shit sandwiches since before there was running water. They get my one vote.

Your second list is much like the first. I hesitate on Germany, because TGA clearly demonstrates there are learned and rational people there who aren't phooled by the accomodations made with Chirac. It seems to me that there's hope, when regime change occurs in the natural way of democracies, but time will tell what the replacement govt will be. Fisher, perhaps? That would cause me to turn them off, again. The EU is yet another point on which the notion of who / what Germany is will turn, too.

I would say that we can't turn our backs on any of these groups, save the Kurds. Hey, you asked, bro!

Posted by .com 2003-9-1 3:58:32 PM|| 2003-9-1 3:58:32 PM|| Front Page Top

#48 Dear .com:
My links reflect the views of researchers in some of the prominent U.S. think-tanks. Unlike some of us who do not hesitate to consider Turkey as the fourth Axis-of-Evil, these people can see the big picture. Turkey did not help Americans in Iraq. So what? Is it fair to forget their help in 1991 and also in Afghanistan? They didnât receive any help from the U.S. for Cyprus either (I am not supporting Turkish position in Cyprus. However, from their point of view, when their national security was threatened in 1974, the U.S. not only refused to support them, but also put embargo against Turkey. OK. Maybe their intention was not just, they should have seek for peaceful solution, they were too trigger-happy, but Turks and the rest of the world think the same about Iraq war! Can you see the symmetry?)

By the way I read your posts with deep interest and I do not agree with your opinions. I do not believe they are trying to sabotage the U.S., I do not agree with you that you can blame Turks for loss of life, I donât think that Turkeyâs refusal had anything to do with the EU (it was a mixture of incompetency of Turkish and US diplomacy, internal politics, etc.).

Posted by Stephen 2003-9-1 4:00:10 PM|| 2003-9-1 4:00:10 PM|| Front Page Top

#49 (dot) - Ok, I get it. There is a LOT in Vaknin's article - and it will take a loooong time to chase down some of it!

Posted by .com 2003-9-1 4:13:56 PM|| 2003-9-1 4:13:56 PM|| Front Page Top

#50 Stephen - Fine. I do not agree with you, either. Think-tanks are full of people with heavy-looking resumes, but they are often fluffy BS and grinding axes (self-serving) as well - hawking books and other money-making schemes. No source is absolute and without some bias... and think-tanks contain a whole stable of "experts" - each of which must be judged individually. I used to be on the panel of an IT company which reviewed and evaluated resumes for potential hires. Most would be amazed by how many people lie on their CV - and how blatantly. Liar's poker is what we called it. It's a bluff to see if you'll actually investigate the claims. MANY are pure air. So I'm a skeptic regards credential claims. Sue me.

"So what?" You suffer from Murat's disease. I DO think their active sabotage (already done; in the past) cost the US lives. I DO blame them for it. You admit you are not aware of the Turkish maneuvers during the time we were trying to secure transit rights. Fine - saying that's your opinion is up to you, but it's rather silly. It's a problem if you are uninformed when lacking easily available information to the contrary, and are told about it, yet still insist that I (or anyone else) take your opinion seriously.

Turkey's actions in Cyprus, which you dribble out in a serious of little apologetic asides, yet still conclude they made sense is rather, uh, disingenuous, as well. Don't you think the US and Turkish military had a shitload of heart-to-heart talks before those planes flew over and the Turkish parachutes opened? I wasn't privvy, but I'll bet that nothing would sway them - no matter how little it gained and how much they lost. Think these actions will be forgotten when they come begging to join the EU? Nope. Never. Ask Aris.

Believe what you like. Ignore what you like. I base my opinions on actions. Words mean almost nothing. As Mark Twain said, "All lies are acts and words have no part in them."

Well, it's 3:30 AM. I'm going to bed. Have fun.

Posted by .com 2003-9-1 4:36:47 PM|| 2003-9-1 4:36:47 PM|| Front Page Top

#51 Stephen - one more thing. Do NOT be impressed with Congressional Resolutions. I could get my Congressman, were I in the US, to read almost anything into the Congressional Record - for the right campaign contribution. These things are done in the dead of night when everyone who doesn't have some important constituent to please that day has gone. You can get these guys to say anything, believe me. So some Turkish patriots wanted to be able to quote the Cong Record. Ok. No big deal. Wasn't voted upon and wasn't condoned by the whole of Congress - just the Speaker's staff which reviews them for content. The main thing is that they have to be positive. None which slam anyone get through the filter and onto the agenda. Keep it simple and positive: All Americans love Ice Cream. It comes from milk. Milk is good for you. Cows make milk. Cows are thus good. Be it resolved, therefore, that blah-blah be declared National Cows Are Good Week. QED. and bingo, it's acceptable. Just thought you'd like to know it's more or less a joke.

Night-night.

Posted by .com 2003-9-1 4:52:32 PM|| 2003-9-1 4:52:32 PM|| Front Page Top

#52 One thing I'll note about this whole issue is that the vote that took place in the Turkish parliament about whether they'd allow American troops through their soil or not; it was decided only on a few votes difference. In fact there were more in favour than against votes; it was only the abstentions that made the difference against letting them IIRC.

So I don't see how people can put so much importance on whether Turkey allowed the troops through or not. Would she have been a "noble ally" had they let the troop through, and now they're a enemy that they didn't? How can a government's whole moral worth change by a decision taken with a handful votes of difference?

People want the simplisting black-vs-white view, characterising whole nations as if they were single monoliths.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2003-9-1 7:50:53 PM|| 2003-9-1 7:50:53 PM|| Front Page Top

#53 Aris, "simplisting black-vs-white view, characterising whole nations as if they were single monoliths"? not even that - there's a lot of your arguments I dislike and disagree with, yet I respect your comments. I know you don't speak for all Greeks, maybe just a minority, but I respect the fact you argue - keep it up

Posted by Frank G 2003-9-1 8:05:57 PM|| 2003-9-1 8:05:57 PM|| Front Page Top

#54 The Govt of Turkey can, indeed, be judged by its actions. If any external action taken stems from an internal decision made with only a slim vote margin, does that change anything? No, of course not.

Prisoner Aris. The Military Tribunal panel has voted, 15-14, for conviction in your capital case. You'll be shot at dawn. But it was really really close, so don't feel bad.

Sure, Aris, your arguments make perfect sense. Geez.

Posted by .com 2003-9-1 8:50:55 PM|| 2003-9-1 8:50:55 PM|| Front Page Top

#55 Couldn't sleep, .com?

Posted by Alaska Paul 2003-9-1 8:58:39 PM|| 2003-9-1 8:58:39 PM|| Front Page Top

#56 AP - Yeah - my normal 3 hrs. 2 90-minute cycles, same my whole life long. Gives me lots of time to read and surf. :-)

Posted by .com 2003-9-1 9:04:09 PM|| 2003-9-1 9:04:09 PM|| Front Page Top

#57 I am still curious about who would be funding destabilization of Turkish Kurds. I would expect to find a certain amount of cash flowing into Iraq, the Palestinean casuses, Chechnya, Kashmir and Indonesia. Things should be relatively quiet in Turkey.

Posted by Super Hose 2003-9-1 9:23:55 PM|| 2003-9-1 9:23:55 PM|| Front Page Top

#58 .com, way to fight the spirited fight. I do respect the passion. I'm sorry that it wasn't the Turkish 1st armoed division that was the steel in the upper part of the vise. That wasn't their concern. Iraqis could just as well eat cake for all they were concered. My only ray of light in their action was that they had a vote, it was open for debate, Uncle Sam was left holding the bag.

Posted by Lucky 2003-9-1 10:43:38 PM|| 2003-9-1 10:43:38 PM|| Front Page Top

#59 .com, but if it was 14-15 *against* conviction, how would the 14 who voted to convict me be any better morally than if they had happened to be 15 instead? A murderer is a murderer regardless of whether the whole world agrees with him. An innocent is an innocent regardless of whether he stands alone.

So are allies and enemies. Turkey's parliament as a whole was on the brink between ally and neutralty. You want to present it if Turkey as a whole backstabbed you. Tough. Democracies don't work that way. It was only a handful of votes that made Turkey choose neutrality here instead.

The good thing in this vote is that though a close one and though the military disagreed with it, they nonetheless respected the decision of the elected parliament something that one wouldn't expect of Turkey of just a handful years ago.

Find some contentment in that, that the level of democracy in Turkey is improving, even if that means they don't do as US would like them to. If Iraq is all about building a muslim democracy, then you *ought* to find some contentment in the strengthening institutions of another muslim democracy.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2003-9-2 9:08:26 AM|| 2003-9-2 9:08:26 AM|| Front Page Top

11:29 Dar
09:08 Aris Katsaris
05:23 Not Mike Moore
05:18 Not Mike Moore
05:12 Not Mike Moore
05:09 Not Mike Moore
05:07 Not Mike Moore
05:06 Not Mike Moore
05:05 Not Mike Moore
05:03 Not Mike Moore
04:51 Not Mike Moore
22:43 Lucky
22:27 eLarson
22:06 Porps
21:57 Lucky
21:52 Lucky
21:35 GregJ
21:33 Lucky
21:24 Mike
21:23 Super Hose
21:13 Super Hose
21:10 Super Hose
21:09 Lucky
21:05 Super Hose