A ninth British suspect was arrested yesterday over the plot by Islamic fanatics to explode a massive lorry bomb. The 27-year-old UK-born Asian Muslim was seized at the terraced home in Crawley, Sussex, he shares with his wife, parents and younger brother. A neighbour said he was a graduate who works in computers. His wife is thought to be eight months pregnant. .... Police taped up the gate at his home last night and uniformed officers stood guard as detectives went in and out of the property. But neighbours claimed the latest suspect was âa really nice blokeâ who was not a fanatic. One insisted: âHeâs got nothing to do with it â he couldnât let off a banger.â .... The ninth man was taken to top-security Paddington Green police station, where the other suspects are detained.
Posted by: Mike Sylwester ||
04/02/2004 12:49:05 AM ||
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#1
I'm sure he's kind to old ladies and always stops to feed the baby ducks too...
#2
âHeâs got nothing to do with it â he couldnât let off a banger.â
Proof positive, then.
Posted by: Howard UK ||
04/02/2004 3:26 Comments ||
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#3
...he shares with his wife, parents and younger brother.
The younger brother is suspicious to say the least. Where did I read that when a house is raided if there are two male adults present arrest one of them. Thats a good policy.
Posted by: Frank G ||
04/02/2004 13:32 Comments ||
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#9
There's also a question as to which one is more lethal...
I spent two weeks at a British RAF base north of Norwich during a NATO exercise. We had to eat in the RAF NCO mess. After the third day, we had some MREs flown in - no joke...
Posted by: Old Patriot ||
04/02/2004 14:16 Comments ||
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#10
OP: Well, yeah! MRE's are great anytime! ;)
"Anybody want to trade peanut butter for my cheese spread?"
#12
I was going to post something on the order of "Bluebottle waits for applause... not a sausinge...", but it's too late, all the Brits are in bed, and there's probably no one else who can catch the reference.
Posted by: Old Grouch ||
04/02/2004 22:03 Comments ||
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Hundreds of asylum-seekers are cutting or burning their fingertips to prevent identification by EU authorities, Swedish officials say. The EU has a joint database where all asylum-seekersâ prints are stored. If migration officials discover applicants have already had their case heard in another EU state, they are liable to be sent back. Swedish officials have disclosed that hundreds of asylum seekersâ prints show signs of injury. Guess what you asshats, if your biometrics cannot be accurately recorded and evaluated, maybe all youâre going to get out of this is a free ride home (i.e., deportation to country of origin).
To mutilate your own fingerprints only makes it more likely that you have something to hide. Whether this is true or not, it puts you directly under the heading of "Potential Terrorist."
Great way to protest, ya fuckwits. Have fun back home when your local oppressive government finds out that you tried to sneak off. Theyâll brand you as subversives too. Thatâs the beauty of honorable assimilation as an immigrant. If you really want to be part of another country, you play by their rules. Have a problem with that? Go back to where you came (escaped) from.
What did you say? You spent your life savings escaping from there? Tough titty little kitty! If you prevent an inducting country from properly recording your identity, then you are shit outta luck.
Thank you for playing, please (donât) try again.
#3
Now they sync and match. Odd what was first displayed - and which I compared to the BBC article and saw huge differences, is not what is showing now.
#4
My post was originally submitted with the BBC text inside a block quote and my own comments to follow, outside of that block. Perhaps the board administrator merely highlighted my own text as an expedient.
Either way, we need to sling-shot these uncooperative moronic self-mutilators back to whatever cesspit they came from.
#5
I have a suspicion that Zenster is a troll playing with us. Look at his LLL Commondreams post about the FBI translator yesterday (complete with "Shrub"-Bush-hating comments). Now this. Something's fishy with that person.
#6
I certainly have no arguments with you on this story regards your comments. Those who make no effort to assimilate eventually become more akin to tumors than contributors. Illogically, many seem to forget why they fled their home of origin - and drag the very same baggage that drove them to leave along with them. It's actually insane, but the desire for the known, the comfortable, often seems to overcome the revulsion.
The people your post refers to certainly make themselves obvious targets for investigation / deportation. But then we're being logical in the Western style...
#7
I don't see any diffo in the two versions, other than line length...
Posted by: Fred ||
04/02/2004 18:53 Comments ||
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#8
TGA - and on the Ann Coulter story, as well. Troll he may be, but he certainly failed to make any point on this thread - so fay, anyway. I'm waiting for him to instruct me on the other post... so I may better myself. :-)
#9
Fred - well it was as described:
Main Display and Comment Display quite different - and he even confirms what I'm saying. Either he has admin rights or an admin cleaned his post up so it matched the BBC story. On the first pass it did not - way too many liberties taken with statements, no yellow highlighting, admin indentation, etc. If I had known I would need to take a snapshot, I would've!
#5 I have a suspicion that Zenster is a troll playing with us. Look at his LLL Commondreams post about the FBI translator yesterday (complete with "Shrub"-Bush-hating comments). Now this. Something's fishy with that person.
--------------------------
Be advised that abrupt accusations of trollery are a serious matter. It frequently is taken to reflect a trollish attitude in the one who makes such claims without adequate substantiation.
Any alterations by myself of an article's original text will be explicitly clear, as in my "China Fair Trade" post. The admins have seen fit to assist me as a newcomer in altering my submissions so they comply with board display guidelines. They have not found any cause to remonstrate my actions, so I must be doing something right.
#14
Dumpster, you're full of "sound and fury," (not that you should rate Shakespeare) but 99% of your ravings here on RB signify nothing.
Posted by: Jen ||
04/02/2004 19:23 Comments ||
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"Dumpster, you're full of "sound and fury," (not that you should rate Shakespeare) but 99% of your ravings here on RB signify nothing."
--------------------
And attempting to discredit someone's opinions with intentional word play upon their screen name has all the sophistication of kindergarten name-calling.
#17
I (being of limited attention span and memory due to living in a fraternity during San Diego State college days) don't remember Zenster's other post, but I think the comments he wrote were spot on in this one...
erasing ID criteria allows authorities to assume guilt, ergo: jettison at first opportunity back to their land they came from, toot-sweet ;-)
Posted by: Frank G ||
04/02/2004 19:48 Comments ||
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#18
"Are you now or have you ever been a TROLL?"
LOL
Posted by: Laurence of the Rats ||
04/02/2004 20:28 Comments ||
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#19
Oh, good grief, instead of fingers, use their feet. Just like we do babies.
#20
Be advised that abrupt accusations of trollery are a serious matter. It frequently is taken to reflect a trollish attitude in the one who makes such claims without adequate substantiation.
I thought this was particularly tortured and pretentious prose. Although he can spell.
Turkish police say another 10 suspected militants have been arrested in sweeps against a militant Turkish group in Turkey and four Western European countries, raising the number of detainees to 63. Raids in Turkey, Italy, Belgium, Germany and the Netherlands began early Thursday, targeting the Revolutionary People's Liberation Party Front, which has called for the overthrow of the Turkish government. Earlier, police said 53 suspected members of the Turkish group had been taken into custody in coordinated raids in the five countries. The crackdown comes ahead of a planned NATO summit in Istanbul in June.
Authorities say Turkish police and intelligence officials and their Western European counterparts had been planning for the operation for more than a year. The United States and European Union have classified the Turkish Marxist group as a terrorist organization. The Revolutionary People's group is responsible for a series of attacks in Turkey, including suicide bombing in Istanbul that killed two police officers and an Australian woman in 2001. It is also believed to be behind the murders of more than 100 policemen, generals and government officials, including a former Turkish justice minister. The militants also have targeted U-S military personnel and diplomatic missions. In a separate arrest Thursday, authorities in northern Greece arrested a German man accused of links to the same group. He had been stopped for an identity check. His arrest was not part of the wider operation.
Posted by: Mr. Davis ||
04/02/2004 10:14 ||
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The leader of Spain's banned Basque separatist party, Batasuna, has been sentenced to 15 months in jail for extolling terrorism. Prosecutors said Arnaldo Otegi had spoken at the funeral of a member of the armed Basque group Eta in 2001. They said he praised what he called Basque soldiers fallen in the battle for self-determination. Meanwhile, security sources say French police have arrested suspected top Eta member Felix Ignacio Esparza Luri. The sources said Mr Esparza Luri, who is believed to be the head of Eta's logistical operations, was detained in a joint operation by French and Spanish police.
2003 was a bad year for the ETA. 2004 looks like more of the same.
As well as being sent to jail, Otegi was also banned from holding public office for eight years. The court heard that in 2001, Otegi carried the coffin at the funeral of an Eta member who accidentally blew herself up with a bomb.
Another case of "Red Wire Syndrome"
He reportedly described the Eta activist as a "colleague" and a "patriot", then asked for "applause for all Basque soldiers who have fallen in this long struggle for self-determination". The BBC's Katya Adler in Madrid says Batasuna, which renamed itself the Patriotic Socialists after it was banned last year, has often denied being the political wing of Eta. However, she adds that Batasuna does at times speak on Eta's behalf.
"Well, we do know them, and sometimes we speak for them, and OK, we do have fundraisers, but we aren't really conected to them."
More than 800 people have been killed during Eta's 38-year campaign of violence to form an independent Basque homeland in the north of Spain. Our correspondent says Batasuna has never explicitly condemned the violence. Otegi has five days to appeal against the verdict. In an interview with a Basque radio station, he described his sentence as exactly the kind of action by the Spanish state which "constitutes the best call to an armed struggle".
If you quit struggling, you wouldn't be in the slammer.
Posted by: Steve ||
04/02/2004 9:25:10 AM ||
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Polandâs government said today it had ordered increased security at airfields and aircraft hangars, citing a ârealisticâ possibility of terrorist attacks using small jets. An Interior Ministry statement did not elaborate on the reason for its warning or cite any specific target, saying only that âthere is a realistic threat of attacks with the use of small jetsâ. It said special measures had been taken to ensure control of airfields, pilot training organisations and plane hangars, but did not elaborate. Polish officials said yesterday that President Aleksander Kwasniewski was named as a terror target on an Arabic-language web site possibly linked to al-Qaida. âThe threat is realistic,â Kwasniewski said. âThat puts on all of us an obligation to be watchful, especially in the Easter season when many people withdraw to devote themselves to family lives.â
Posted by: Dan Darling ||
04/02/2004 8:50:51 AM ||
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Bah! We all know that al Qaeda is just pissed off about Poland horning in on the Saudi Arabian passports-for-sale action.
Italian police has found a videotape in which Al-Qaeda warns of an upcoming attack against Rome. The videotape was found at the home of a purported member of the Islamist terror organization in the Italian northern town of Cremona, today's Italian media report. "Those, who will destroy Rome, is already making ready his swords. Rome will be conquered not with words but with force and weapons," a man believed to be Jordanian Abu Katda al Falastini, Al-Qaeda member, says in the tape.
I think that this is one and the same as Abu Qatada ...
Posted by: Dan Darling ||
04/02/2004 8:46:29 AM ||
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Abu's banged up in Belmarsh nick - London. Knowing our authorities they probably lent him the recording equipment and paid his postage.
Posted by: Howard UK ||
04/02/2004 8:54 Comments ||
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I wonder when they will hit the Vatican. Seems like the ultimate easy target.
Posted by: Yosemite Sam ||
04/02/2004 11:24 Comments ||
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#3
Easy target?!!! You obviously underestimate the Swiss guards.
". . . upon this rock I will build my Church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." (Mt. 16:18-19.)
Bring in on, Abu!
Posted by: Mike ||
04/02/2004 12:37 Comments ||
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Destroy Rome? And then they will make hymns about it or is music unislamic?
#2
My first hought on hearing about this was "nuke the motherfuckers". Then I sat back counted to ten and thought about the innocents that may, just may, be in Fajuckedup. Then I decided that nukes were to good for 'em. I think its time to start staging the bombing accuracy contest for cells of BUFFs in Fajuckhead
In the Milan daily Corriere della Sera, which published similar pictures, columnist Gianni Riotta noted that the attack came during the U.S. presidential election campaign, and that previous U.S. decisions to withdraw troops, in Lebanon and Somalia, have come after particularly bloody attacks.
"If the American public opinion is impressed by the fierce torture of Fallujah and by the endless stream of army dead ... it could force the White House to do a turnaround, hand over governing to the Iraqis, leave some troops based there, and then get out," he wrote.
The Europeans so don't understand Americans.
This is what they (or their poodle Clintoon) would do. Of course, they would never be there in the first place; they're too nuanced.
Wankers.
Posted by: Barbara Skolaut ||
04/02/2004 18:25 Comments ||
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A bomb has been found on the Madrid to Seville high-speed train line, according to the Spanish interior minister. The service had been stopped while security forces examined a suspect package spotted by an employee of state railway firm Renfe... The device is described as being approximately 12kg in weight
Posted by: Lux ||
04/02/2004 7:35:45 AM ||
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Cause => Effect.
Posted by: Charles ||
04/02/2004 7:49 Comments ||
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#2
Probably pro-Bush jihadists wanting Spanish troops return to Irak.
#5
Isn't Spain protected by the Geneva Convention at this point?
Posted by: Matt ||
04/02/2004 9:24 Comments ||
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#6
Impossible, this is obviously a lie. The Spanish government as said it would pull its troops from Iraq, therefore AQ shouldn't attack them....right? Right?
#8
You're right AHM. A group claiming to have links with al-Qaeda said today it was calling a truce in its Spanish operations to see if the new government would withdraw its troops from Iraq.... Appeasers may learn a lesson. Maybe not.
#10
Tell me again how rewarding the jihadis would get them to stop.
Posted by: Steve from Relto ||
04/02/2004 10:15 Comments ||
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#11
Things that make you go "Hummmm", from Samizdata: The explosives with copper wiring similar to that used in the 11 March attacks on Madrid appear to have been abandoned when a routine track patrol was made near Toledo.
N.B. Toledo was the site of two decisive battles: the first confirmed the Moorish conquest of Spain in 712, and the second was the launchpad of the Spanish Reconquistada with the Moorish defeat there in 1212.
They do like their symbolism, don't they?
Posted by: Steve ||
04/02/2004 11:54 Comments ||
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#12
Time has no meaning where Dire Revenge is concerned, you uppity Crusader! ;-)
Depends on how intelligent the appeasers are. If not very, they just might try even more appeasement, as in "Why wait for the handover? Let's get our forces out of Iraq RIGHT NOW."
#16
C'mon everybody. The glorious lions of the desert . . . the fighters for Islam . . . the holy warriors of Allah . . . would NEVER do something like that! They promised. Must be somebody else.
#17
When they said "truce," they actually meant; "Once all Spanish women are wearing burkhas and every man in Spain bows towards Mecca, then we'll declare a truce."
Appeasement works fine and dandy, just ask any survivor of the Blitz.
AN undercover Sun reporter has exposed just how easy it is to get a false east European passport and exploit the Governmentâs shambolic immigration system. Our man was able to buy a forged Polish passport with a false name in a bustling Warsaw street market for just £800. He was also able to buy a picture ID card in his own name for £330. The Home Office last night confirmed that from May 1 â when Poland and nine other nations join the EU â either document will allow entry to Britain. Similar fake credentials could be used by illegal immigrants from non-EU countries . . . as well as terrorists or big-time criminals.
A tip-off from a contact in the Polish underworld led us to Rozyckiego Market, a vipersâ nest of criminality in the centre of Polish capital Warsaw. Within seconds of entering the collection of rickety wooden and corrugated iron stalls we were approached by an unshaven man in a leather jacket. Through a translator, the man, with black moustache and baseball cap, offered our reporter a Polish ID card. The man boasted: âYou can have it in whatever name you like. You will be able to travel all over Europe with it. It will be a perfect fake. You can pick it up tomorrow.â Then, as other shoppers strolled by, we were ushered behind a flower stall out of sight of the busy street. Our man was then introduced to another gang member, an overweight, bald man in his fifties. He asked through the translator for our reporterâs height, hair and eye colour. He agreed to provide an ID card in the name Oliver Harvey. Our man handed over a passport picture and 300 US dollars (£165) up front. Returning two days later, he picked up the picture ID, a brilliant fake which also gave our reporter a false address in Warsaw. It also gave the city as his place of birth and a made-up name for his father. The green-fronted card, number DX1258874, came complete with official government stamps and watermarks. We paid a further £165 in US dollars for the ID and shook hands.
The bald man then said through our translator: âWe trust you now. Why donât you buy a passport? We have Polish and Austrian, but Austrian is more expensive. You can have any name you like but why donât you let us make up a Polish identity for you? Border guards will simply look at your passport and wave you through.â His pal said: âPeople travel to Britain and throughout Europe on our passports. We will create a new identity for you, no problem.â After quoting $2,000, around £1,100, our man bartered the price down to £800. As we struck the deal another man, of central Asian origin, arrived to collect HIS false passport. The racketeer proudly showed the fake to our reporter who, judging the papers a good copy, handed over a £500 down payment in US dollars. Our reporter now had the false name of Andrzej Miler, false date of birth March 28, 1968, and passport number BM3196643. When we compared our version with a legitimate Polish passport, there was no obvious difference. One local said: âThis market is like a passport consulate. As well as passports and ID cards, you can get driving licences and degrees.â
In four weeks Poland will be the EUâs eastern frontier. Mafia gangs have already established the nation as a people-smuggling staging post en-route to Britain and the West. Around 50,000 illegals from as far afield as China, Afghanistan and Somalia were stopped trying to cross Polandâs borders last year. Almost 10,000 forged passports and other ID documents were discovered at British ports in 2002, the latest year for which figures are available â an increase of 46 per cent on 2001. But an unknown number of illegals with false papers make it into Britain each year. Forged passports are commonly used by terrorists to slip in and out of countries undetected. Two al-Qaeda terrorists, jailed in Britain in 2003, were discovered with hundreds of false travel documents. ....
The false documents we bought in Poland were examined by a counterfeit passport expert . . . who passed them with flying colours. The London-based specialist, unnamed because he helps investigations involving terrorists and organised crime, subjected the documents to vigorous forensic tests. He concluded in a written report: âBoth documents would be accepted as genuine in a variety of scenarios. After Polandâs accession to the EU, the passport is likely to be accepted in all EU countries. âThis is particularly the case where they are not physically examined but merely accepted âon the nodâ as the holder passes through the control holding the photo page open, as in the UK.â Once in Britain the passport could be used for a string of criminal and black market activities. The specialist added: âYou could use the passport to open a bank account, get a credit card, get a job and cash cheques.â But he said the fakes are not perfect. And the passport could be rumbled if a Customs man decided to look closely at it. He added: âI would not expect an immigration officer to accept the passport if it is subjected to any kind of physical examination. âHaving said that, if there were travel stamps and visas in the passport, it might be enough to put the officer off asking too many questions.â
A gang netted more than £1million by sticking immigrantsâ pictures into genuine British passports. In 14 months up to 500 illegals were waved through at British airports and ferry terminals. Three of the gang â Britons Robert Walkden, 31, Mohammed Jamil, 32, and Khalid Mahmood, 31 â were jailed for six years each in Bradford yesterday. They charged £2,000 to escort the Asian migrants from Europe into Britain, sticking their photos into genuine passports believed to have been bought from British citizens. Detective Constable Peter Thornton, who led the inquiry, said: âThe fact is if you are in the queue for people with British passports, the chances are you wonât be stopped.â
Posted by: Mike Sylwester ||
04/02/2004 1:00:07 AM ||
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You will note that the Mob don't deal in Euros.
#2
This explains why the US has not lifted visa restrictions on travel from Poland despite their help in Iraq and the WOT. The Polish government can bitch all they want, but those restrictions need to be kept in place until Poland cleans up this problem.
Posted by: Steve ||
04/02/2004 8:46 Comments ||
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Yeah right. This reporter should ask for a refund. First of all, the last name on the passport should be 'Miller' not 'Miler', even though they are pronounced the same way in Polish. An easy mistake for a dumbass forger to make (and even dumber reporter). With a sharp border guard this should immediately raise a flag.
Secondly, these passports are being phased out. Hopefully the newer version has better security, and will most likely conform to EU standards.
Lastly, this would only be a problem where border guards allow people through "on the nod". Even at the Warsaw airport, when you cross the border upon arrival, the border guard puts the passport through a scanner. I've never seen what the guard is looking at, but assumingly it's a database of personal info.
This article is just fear-mongering.
Posted by: Rafael ||
04/02/2004 13:58 Comments ||
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Every death should be on the front page
Let the people see what war is like. This isn't an Xbox game. There are real repercussions to Bush's folly.
That said, I feel nothing over the death of merceneries. They aren't in Iraq because of orders, or because they are there trying to help the people make Iraq a better place. They are there to wage war for profit. Screw them.
I know we're not supposed to re-post blog articles here, but I thought this would be a usefule exception. Kos is not an "extremist"; he's held out as a "mainstream" leftist. I've always found him to be churlish with no human kindness, but what do I know? And he's anonymous, of course. But if this is "main-stream" left thought today, God help the U.S.A. if Kerry wins in November.
While he's about it, he should also insist on translations of Friday sermons being broadcast, so the populace knows who and what the enemy is. Keep stats on honor killings and make sure there's at least one talking head discussing freedom of religion in Soddy Arabia every day. Like it or not, we're in a war. We didn't ask for it — we were at peace on 9-10-01. You don't fight a battle and then go home. You bring the war to the enemy and destroy him. Sniffing that you "feel nothing" at the death of some "mercenaries" is just too fastidious for words. They're so beneath the writer he doesn't even have any contempt to spare for them.
I've never read the writer's site. I don't intend to now.
Posted by: Steve White ||
04/02/2004 10:15:05 AM ||
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Kos isn't the only one. Commenters at the Democratic Underground and Hesiod are referring to civillian contractors as "mercenaries" and all but gloating over the Falluja atrocity. Respected opinion journalist Eric Alterman thinks we deserved it and it's all Bush's fault.
Posted by: Mike ||
04/02/2004 10:35 Comments ||
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#2
This should be under Fifth Column.
Posted by: Steve from Relto ||
04/02/2004 10:40 Comments ||
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#3
This should be under Fifth Column.
Done.
What really bothers me: the Left sees four Americans working in Iraq to ensure the security of food deliveries as "mercenaries". I thought a mercenary was a man carrying a rifle in the service of another country or cause. These are Americans working for us!
Posted by: Steve White ||
04/02/2004 10:43 Comments ||
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#4
I understand your anger gents, but I wouldn't get too worked up about these idiots - one, you can't change their thinking, two, they're fucking morons who spout off tired rhetoric without any logic - so who cares. At most, I'd say long on to their blogs as a sort of muck4doo style satirist and clown on them all day long or until they cut out your posting ability.
#6
DU and Hesiod arent mainstream, theyre widely reviled in the "center" Alterman aint particularly mainstream either. Doubt any of them wanted Kerry over Dean. Not sure about Kos - some folks seem to think hes mainstream - i never read him - Josh Marshall is as much as I can take, and dont like him all that much.
#7
Michelle of "A Small Victory" has still more from the DU feverswamps.
'Hawk, I don't think DU, Kos, Hesiod, or Alterman are anywhere near the mainstream of U.S. opinion. Unfortunately, they are in the mainstream of opninion of the people who run the Democratic Party.
Posted by: Mike ||
04/02/2004 11:28 Comments ||
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#8
Odd, LH, how those folks outside the mainstream sound just like most of the Democrats who ran for president.
Posted by: Robert Crawford ||
04/02/2004 11:35 Comments ||
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#9
I agree with LH: these guys aren't mainstream Democrats.
Posted by: Matt ||
04/02/2004 11:45 Comments ||
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#10
Blogger Michael Friedman has a great idea on how to introduce Kos to the concept that actions have consequences.
Posted by: Mike ||
04/02/2004 12:56 Comments ||
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#11
I also agree with LH. Most Democrats have no idea that Democratic Underground even exists. They have never heard of Eric Alterman. Actually, I am willing to bet that a sizable number of them don't know who John Kerry is. Most Americans just aren't all that political. They aren't members of the "chattering class," nor do they wish to be.
Case in point: my 82-year-old grandmother is a lifelong Democrat. Why? Because her personal experiences during the Great Depression have convinced her that Republicans equal greed and suffering. Nevermind evidence to the contrary. She doesn't know or care very much about the finer points of John Kerry's politics either, nor the growing anti-semetism of the American left, or even the American left itself. She's picked her political brand and that's how she's voted for the last half century.
Really, she is the typical American Democrat, not Kos.
#12
My Dad (lifelong Democrat, successful candidate for public office, and retired judge) is the same sort of Democrat as Granny Secret (or is that Granny Master?[:-)]), and I never meant to imply otherwise. The problem is that the Party isn't in control of people like that (or people like our dear friend Liberalhawk, for that matter)--it's in the control of people who are, in the aggregate, uncomfortably too much like Kos.
Posted by: Mike ||
04/02/2004 13:18 Comments ||
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#13
I think Secret Master is absolutely spot-on about ordinary, mainstream Democrats. I was one of them until a year ago, though I'd voted for Reagan in '80 and '84 and for Bush in '88. But until recently I was largely apolitical and non-ideological; I just voted for whoever I "felt" would probably do the best job. Even those mainstream Democrats who are more strongly political than I was vote the way they do mostly out of a sense of tradition, I suspect.
But the leadership of the Democratic Party is another story and I have come to view them, like Kos, the Indymediots and the DUers, as sociopaths. They seem incapable of understanding that other people are actually living, thinking, feeling human beings. Where most of us have some empathy for our fellows these people appear to have... just a black void.
Something is deeply wrong with them.
Posted by: Dave D. ||
04/02/2004 13:18 Comments ||
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#14
SM - That's not at all comforting, not that that was your point! And I have known people who mirror your description perfectly. Habitual voters (read: those who've picked their political brand) and anyone who would ever vote straight-party, regardless of the party, makes a mockery of the citizen's duty. I won't vote in a race where I feel I haven't sufficient information - and I'm sure I'm one of the slowest voters due to wading through page after page in the ballot to locate those where I feel competent enough to register my choice. It's hard to recall that far back, but prior to the League of Women Voters' pre-election newspaper supplements, and now the Internet, I was limited to voting in only a fraction of the races.
#15
The democratic "establishment" includint McAullife, the Clintons, etc, not to mention the DLC all favored Kerry over Dean. Gore being the main exception. Alterman im sure favored Dean over Kerry. I presume DU and Hesiod did too - again i dont follow those blogs, you'll have to fill me in. Not sure about Kos.
RC - why do they sound like mainstream Dems - perhaps cause they keep saying Bush shouldnt be reelected. Kinda like everyone from anti-Israel Robert Novak to pro-Irael Charles Krauthammer attack Kerry, Clark, etc. Doesnt prove that Kraut and Novak share views on the middle east - just they agree on who should be president. Same applies to DU, Hesiod, et al
If we had proportional rep in the US we could all vote for our little micro party that agreed with us on everything. WE dont. On other forums than this, Im seen as a conservative, cause i support the war in IRaq, treating the WOT as a war, and i have nice things to say about Ariel Sharon and the Patriot Act. To those folks, im saying the same things Bush is saying. And i may yet vote for Bush. But I beleive in national govt provided health insurance - does that prove that Bush supports it??? No, of course not. Use logic, people.
#16
But I beleive in national govt provided health insurance
LH, I'd look carefully at health provision in countries where such a 'service' is provided by the state, and consider: a) is it better than the US's?; b) is it more efficient?; c) which system has advanced human health, in terms of basic research and pioneering techniques, more than the other? Like so many issues, nationalised health sounds sooo good until you actually have to live with it.
I speak as someone in a first world country with government-run, socialised healthcare that is universally acknowledged as far inferior to America's (the remaining debate is whether it's 'catching up' or 'falling behind' - if it's catching up, it's doing it slower every year). Inefficient, ludicrously bureaucratic and embarrassingly third-rate. I say: drop the ideology, and just look at the evidence.
#17
im not for a brit style national health service, but something more like a canadian or German single payer system, with health provision still private.
I assume that even Tony Blair wouldnt be for the NHS if UK was starting from scratch, would he? NHS is an institutional legacy from another time, you folks seem to be stuck with.
And my main point was not to debate health care here - it was to point out that A says X, and B says X, ergo A believes everything B believes is a fallacy.
#18
Brother 'Hawk, we are more in agreement than either of us realized. I wish the looney left would get out of the way and let the folks like you and Dad and Secret Granny* take over so the Dems could be a responsible center-left party again; it would be healthy for the country.
*-Too cool a moniker not to use. No offense to your Grandma intended, SM.
Posted by: Mike ||
04/02/2004 13:51 Comments ||
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#19
LH/Mike
I would also like to see a responsible center-left party again. Now consider how many votes Liberman got (the center-left). Compare it with the combined votes of Dean, Sharpton, Kucinich and Clark (the hard left). Compare it to Kerry and Edwards (the uber pander left).
#20
Sorry, LH, you can't convince me. There is no firewall between people like Kos and the Democrat party; Kerry has repeated some of the feverish conspiracies folks like Kos embrace and promote. Hell, the idiotic "Bush AWOL" lie didn't get national press notice until McAuliffe brought it up.
How can you act like there is a vast gulf between loons like Kos and the party when the party chairman repeats the same slanderous lies?
Posted by: Robert Crawford ||
04/02/2004 14:43 Comments ||
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#21
the demographics simply dont exist for the kind of left that mike and mhw and i would like - that kind of center left was strong when the US had a large base of unionized blue collar workers (not that every blue collar union shared those politics) The class structure (dare i use such words here?) has changed, there is no longer the class basis for that kind of politics. But I will stand by my beliefs anyway.
#22
so if the RNC repeats something juicy that Pat Robertson brings up, that proves that the RNC beleieves everything Robertson does? dont think so.
try this A doesnt like C. B also doesnt like C. B comes up with something juicy to attack C. A repeats the juicy item. Ergo A agrees with everything B beleives. I leave it to students of logic to analyze.
Try this - some of the things Islamists say about the "evil US imperialists" are the same things Slobodan Milosevich says. Does it follow that Slobo is an Islamist?
#23
LH, you're both more conservative and more liberal than you think :-)
I have no problem with the notion that many, many Democrats disagree with Kos, the DU, etc. My mother-in-law is a "yellow dog Democrat", and despite my pleas she'll prolly vote for Kerry this fall out of habit.
The problem is that mainstream Democrats just aren't slapping down their goofs with enough gusto. The Repubs had this problem in the early '90's, and it cost GHWB an election. The Repubs finally go their goofs under control (for the most part), and it made them a better party.
We need a sane, responsible, vibrant center-left Democratic party. Right now we don't have one, and that's sad.
Posted by: Steve White ||
04/02/2004 15:04 Comments ||
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#24
LH, you're both more conservative and more liberal than you think :-)
I have no problem with the notion that many, many Democrats disagree with Kos, the DU, etc. My mother-in-law is a "yellow dog Democrat", and despite my pleas she'll prolly vote for Kerry this fall out of habit.
The problem is that mainstream Democrats just aren't slapping down their goofs with enough gusto. The Repubs had this problem in the early '90's, and it cost GHWB an election. The Repubs finally go their goofs under control (for the most part), and it made them a better party. We need a sane, responsible, vibrant center-left Democratic party. Right now we don't have one, and that's sad.
Posted by: Steve White ||
04/02/2004 15:05 Comments ||
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#25
*sigh*
Never mind, LH.
Posted by: Robert Crawford ||
04/02/2004 15:06 Comments ||
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#26
Mike:
None taken. I think that my grandmother would enjoy being known as "Secret Granny."
When David Duke ran as a Republican, the mainstream Republicans denounced him. When Sharpton ran as a Dem, the mainstream Dems embraced him (not to mention the mainstream media). Republican fund raisers extract money from the management class of corporate American and some from working class also. The big givers to the Dems are the entertainment industry stars, trial lawyers, the guilt ridden rich.
#30
I wouldnt say they embraced him, but they didnt denounce him. Duke doesnt represent a constituency as large and (dare i say) as thin skinned as Sharpton does.
BTW, the dems also raise money form corporate america. Clinton raised money from silicon valley, and so did Lieberman. Clinton also raised money from investment banker, like those at Goldman Sachs.
#31
heres what armed liberal at winds of change has to say about Fallujah;
Falluja, Again
Armed Liberal
The pictures and story from Falluja are horrible. As we should, we recoil from the rage and inhumanity of the actions that led to them, and try to figure out how to respond. On one of my email lists, the discussion is between those who want to respond with massive destruction and those who - equally hopeless about the future of Iraq - want to simply leave.
I'll offer the photo linked here (note that it is slightly, but not horribly, graphic) as evidence why we shouldn't do either.
Note the dateline: Marietta, GA, 1915. That's where Leo Frank was brutally lynched.
In case you think those horrors are in our distant past, I'll suggest that Andrew Goodman, James Chaney and Michael Schwerner would probably feel differently - if they were alive.
While some might disagree, I think I can safely say that the American South is, today, civilized.
#32
That is who these people are now and by that I mean the "Democratic Wing of the Democratic Party"--to them, the people who died working in the WTC on 9/11 deserved death also because they were feeding the capitalist system to make evil (and "Jewish") profits to feed the "military industrial complex."
Their aims are virtually inseparable from the Islamist terrorists except that the terrorists at least have a semblance of a religion.
The DemoncRATS will say and do anything, including walk over innumerable corpses, to get power and money.
They worship themselves and getting the world back to the way it was on 9/10.
The kind of old-fashioned Democrat described so often above barely exists anymore and Sen. Zell Miller has said as much.
These people are evil; you can tell because their stock in trade is LIES and they delight in the deaths of their fellow men and women.
This isn't the first time they've done this.
Dave D. is a former Dim so he knows whereof he speaks.
They have a black void where their hearts and souls should be.
How we share a country with these people is beyond me.
It's ugly and evil and I'm sick of hearing their sh*t and living in the cesspool they try to make this country into.
It's not the America I know and love, but they have the media microphone (including a good part of the blogosphere) and so it's the America they bully a good part of the world to accept.
It's a sacrilege, a horror, and a complete outrage that these nihilists threaten to destroy everthing good and decent and enduring to get their power back and keep it!
Michael Savage was right: Liberalism is a mental illness and a disease and should be treated as such.
Embrace their ideaology, aims and rhetoric at your peril!
Posted by: Jen ||
04/02/2004 15:25 Comments ||
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#34
Sorry, CF--I know it was a rant, but I really *hate* these people.
I think they are monsters and they've made the world we live in a miserable place.
Posted by: Jen ||
04/02/2004 15:34 Comments ||
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#35
LH:im not for a brit style national health service, but something more like a canadian...
If you had to wait two weeks to see your family doctor, a month to see a specialist, and more months for specialized tests using old equipment, you'd quickly change your mind. That's assuming you live in a big metropolitan area; out in the boonies...you're on your own. BTW, Buffalo MRI, just across the lake from Toronto, is doing a booming business. They even have radio ads thanking all their Canadian customers! Yup, my kind of health care.
Posted by: Rafael ||
04/02/2004 15:40 Comments ||
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#36
Raf - im not going to debate health care here. I was giving an example.
#37
Here, by the way, is what John Kerry actually said about Fallujah
My deepest sympathies are with the families of those lost today. Americans know that all who serve in Iraq - soldier and civilian alike - do so in an effort to build a better future for Iraqis. These horrific attacks remind us of the viciousness of the enemies of Iraq's future. United in sadness, we are also united in our resolve that these enemies will not prevail."
Posted by: Rafael ||
04/02/2004 15:50 Comments ||
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#39
"Dave D. is a former Dim so he knows whereof he speaks."
Gaaaaack! I was not!!!! I was a former Dem, not a former Dim! Gee willikers...
As to LH, a few posts back he seemed to be characterizing the Dem leadership and their public advocates as merely arguing that Bush shouldn't be re-elected. Sorry, but that's not what I've been hearing from them. What I have been hearing, from mainstream Democrats, is that Bush BETRAYED the country; that he is a MISERABLE FAILURE; that all of America (except Bush's corporate fat-cat cronies) is SUFFERING THE WORST ECONOMY OF THE LAST FIFTY YEARS; that our work in Iraq is an ABSOLUTE DISASTER; that Republicans are RAPING the environment; and so on and so forth.
Sorry, but the attacks on 9/11 abruptly reduced my tolerance for dishonest bullshit to absolute zero. And dishonest bullshit is all I've heard out of Democrats for the last two and a half years.
I can understand the desire to have a healthy center-left political party; but I don't think it's going to evolve out of today's Democrats.
Posted by: Dave D. ||
04/02/2004 15:51 Comments ||
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#40
So do as every Republican here share Jens beliefs? If not, why think every Dem shares Kos' beleifs?
#41
well gee,DD, what did you expect them to say, Bush is the greatest president of all time, but we're against him anyway??? Sure many mainstream dems demonize Bush - didnt many mainstream Reps demonize Clinton? Isnt demonizing your opponent a grand tradition in american politics going back to the Federalists and the Jeffersonians??? Again how does Terry McAuliffe (say) agreeing with Kos that Bush is a miserable failure, imply that he agrees with Kos about deaths in Iraq???? Where the men mutilated in Iraq named Bush??? If Kos beleives that its smart to drive without seatbelts, does that imply that McAullife beleives the same.
Again A beleives X, and B believes X and B beleives Y DOES NOT IMPLY that A beleives Y. This is elementary logic.
#42
"So do as every Republican here share Jens beliefs? If not, why think every Dem shares Kos' beleifs?"
Lh, maybe because most of the crew over at DUH Underground say the same thing Kos does...and worse.
And I'm an American. before I'm a Republican,
I'm a Republican because I love the America of our Founding Fathers.
Dave D., sorry! Color yourself and Zell Miller two of the last remaining"Truman Democrats."
Posted by: Jen ||
04/02/2004 15:59 Comments ||
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#43
Arik Sharon believes that it was right to kill Yassin. Liberalhawk believes it was right to kill Yassin. Arik Sharon beleives that Israel should keep about 40% of the West Bank - Ergo LH believes that Israel should keep about 40% of the West Bank - NO!
#44
Jen - i never said Democratic Underground didnt share Kos' beliefs. Who said DU represented the mainstream of the Democratic party. Just cause they managed to register that name doesnt give them the right to speak for Dems - does this site speak for all Rants? Do you speak for the entire WW2 generation?
Raf - any example i picked would have been a domestic issue on which i disagree with most here, and would not be suitable for debate here.
#45
"well gee,DD, what did you expect them to say, Bush is the greatest president of all time, but we're against him anyway???"
Please point out what it is, in what I wrote above, that suggests I would expect any such thing from them.
Actually, I'd be satisfied if they would simply refrain from demagoguing every goddamn issue to death with breathless, hate-filled, over-the-top hyperbole, particularly the entire issue of our struggle against Islamic totalitarianism.
Jen: all is forgiven.
Posted by: Dave D. ||
04/02/2004 16:21 Comments ||
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#46
id be happy with less demagoguing from both sides, but this sort of thing has been going on from both sides for years.
#47
Again how does Terry McAuliffe (say) agreeing with Kos that Bush is a miserable failure, imply that he agrees with Kos about deaths in Iraq????
Way to miss the point! Did you do that on purpose?
It's not that McAuliffe says Bush is a failure, it's that McAuliffe repeats the lie about Bush having been AWOL. It's as if the Republican Chairman had started reading the "Clinton Death List" on "Meet the Press".
Posted by: Robert Crawford ||
04/02/2004 16:50 Comments ||
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#48
By the way, LGF is reporting that Kos has taken down his post and tried to wipe all traces of it.
So apparently Kos is not even a mainstream human being.
Posted by: Matt ||
04/02/2004 16:59 Comments ||
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#49
Several Democratic candidates who had an ad on the Daily Kos blog were contacted by conserned Bloggers and commenters and these Democratic candidates have retracted their ads. There is a war going on the Blogosphere. And Daily Kos is the bitten dog. He desereves it after his disgusting comments.
#50
Quote from James Taranto's Best Of The Web today:
It's worth noting that the Daily Kos is popular among Democratic leaders. Zuniga is a principal in the Armstrong Zuniga political consulting firm, which touts the Daily Kos as "the most popular political weblog with over 3 million monthly visits." Friedman has a list of congressional candidates who advertise on the site, and in a February posting Zuniga reported that Terry McAuliffe, chairman of the Democratic National Committee, "asked if I would post" a "Message to Blog Community."
Too many of them are drinking that damned Kool-Aid, and no good can come from it--either for the Party, or for the country.
Posted by: Dave D. ||
04/02/2004 17:16 Comments ||
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#51
Jesus H. Christ and his half brother harold... leave Liberalhawk alone people! He's our friend! He's also one of our best posters. If you tick him off and he goes away our collective IQ drops by about 10 points!
#55
The Presidential election this year is no longer politics - it's a full-scale war. The blogosphere is only one of many battlegrounds. Some of this is absolutely insanity on the part of the participants. Some of the stuff being done, especially on the left, should blow up so badly it takes a generation for them to recover.
Fallujah is just one weapon they will use to fight the rest of this nation. They have no concern for the war on Terror. Their only concern is POWER - and their only desire is to have it. God help us all if they succeed.
Personally, I kinda agree with what Jack Wheeler says in this article.
Posted by: Old Patriot ||
04/02/2004 18:14 Comments ||
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#56
.com:
Certainly not. We all are responsible for what we post here without exception. It's just that LH wasn't trying to make a point about health insurance, he was trying to make a point about political parties and personal political philosophy within those parties as opposed to "groupthink." I happen to disagree with him strongly on the topic of nationalized health coverage -- but it's still not the topic we were actually discussing.
IMAO it's one of life's hard lessons, but political parties are like fleets of small mercenary warships who travel together for mutual protection. Each of these small, lightly armed and armored ships are a special interest group such as gun owners, trial lawyers, farmers, and gays. Everybody simultaneously hoists the same flag of convenience, shouts "Go Navy!", and heads into battle. Nobody wants to be out there alone in their one little cruiser when their opposing number shows up with his friends....
If the opposing fleet makes a better offer every ship is for hire too. Organized labor went overboard to Nixon back during the Nixon/McGovern election if you recall.
The Greens are a party with a WWI-era Russian manufactured dreadnaught, and the Libertarians (God bless em!) have a PT Boat.
#57
SM - Wow! That's the best constructed analogy of the day, certainly! Prolly the whole week! Shit - it's so cool I'll bow out and STFU! No shit - Kudos!
We need to remember this response from Zuniga and other propaganda-mercenaries the first time a Reuters or Al Arabiya crew is butchered by a Shiite mob in Iraq, as seems more and more likely every day.
It doesn't worry the terror-tools that we are on to them, we don't kill inciters and propagandists.
It should worry them a great deal that Black Flag, the Shia anti-terrorist vigilante group, is on to them.
The Canadian Security Intelligence Service has told its political masters and other western intelligence agencies that it has strong evidence Ottawa software engineer Mohammed Momin Khawaja had a direct role in plotting terrorist attacks in London, and has links to anti-western Islamic extremists in Pakistan, sources said yesterday.
Political Masters? Methinks I detect a hint of bias there.
Officials say the RCMP's arrests this week of Mr. Khawaja in Ottawa and the arrests of nine British Muslims in London -- all of whom are of Pakistani descent -- are just the start of a series of anti-terrorism operations to take place around the globe. On Tuesday, authorities arrested three al-Qaeda suspects in Jordan for allegedly planning terrorist attacks. Yesterday, security forces in Turkey, Germany, Italy, Belgium and the Netherlands carried out co-ordinated raids against an ultra-leftist Turkish group considered a terrorist organization by the U.S., arresting 53 suspects. Officials say western security agencies and their allies in the developing world plan more arrests, largely directed at closing down radical Islamic terrorist cells linked to, or inspired by Osama bin Laden. Intelligence sources would not say whether CSIS or the RCMP have evidence linking Mr. Khawaja directly to al-Qaeda, but he is believed to be sympathetic to the anti-western ideology of Mr. bin Laden and his senior lieutenants, who are thought to be hiding in northwestern Pakistan.
Sigh, they still don't seem to grasp the idea that islamo-fascist ideology is the enemy, not membership in one group or another.
Mr. Khawaja is being dubbed "The Fixer" by several newspapers in Britain that claim he was acting as a mentor for a cell of young British terrorist suspects before he was arrested. Before the arrests, the British spy agency MI5 had conducted a two-month surveillance operation during which the suspected cell is alleged to have discussed bombing several targets in and around London. Lip readers were used to study films of the cell taken by undercover officers and tracking devices were attached to cars. Three of the suspects were arrested in Crawley, a town close to Gatwick airport, and were known to frequent an Internet cafe called PC UK. After the suspects had been picked up, police conducted a major forensic search of the cafe and seized several computer hard drives.
Gathering lots of lovely documentation.
Jafar Nazir, 34, co-owner of the business, said that the three had been in three or four times, had browsed the Internet for 20 or 30 minutes and then left. He said the youngsters were "normal kids" and that he had no idea what they got up to. While the cafe and its owners have no connection with terrorist activity, British newspapers are speculating that the suspects have been using the e-mail to talk with al-Qaeda "mentors" or "fixers" in other countries. Police are looking for communications between members of the cell and "fixers" whose job is to offer help.
Call it "fixer" or "mentor" if you like, I call it a controller. Sounds like Khawaja met them in person while on his "wife shopping" trip to England and briefed them on how to stay in touch via the internet. There had to be a local recruiter who selected the group and passed them off to Khawaja.
Insiders say Prime Minister Paul Martin and Public Safety Minister Anne McLellan were briefed on the extensive file on Mr. Khawaja, 24, a contract employee at Foreign Affairs. Sources say evidence accumulated by CSIS and other western intelligence agencies led officials to lay charges against Mr. Khawaja for unspecified terrorist activities in Ottawa and London between Nov. 10, 2003, and Monday of this week. The government also alleges that in the same period and in those same cities, Mr. Khawaja "did knowingly facilitate a terrorist activity." He is charged under terrorism-related sections of the Criminal Code.
Controller or money man? He appears in court by video link today, may be more info after that.
Stephen Greenberg, the Ottawa lawyer hired by the Khawaja family, said yesterday he has not been provided with any evidence against his client but expects to get more information when Mr. Khawaja appears in court today. "I have been given nothing really, but the Crown says I am supposed to get a disclosure package," Mr. Greenberg said. "I want to have something because my client is entitled to know why he is being charged." In a meeting yesterday morning at the Innes Road jail, Mr. Khawaja asked Mr. Greenberg to make a public statement on his behalf. "He says he's innocent," Mr. Greenberg said after the meeting. "He says he's not a member of any terrorist organization, and that he has not taken part in any terrorist activity."
There are never any guilty people in prison, either
Mr. Greenberg's visit is the first jail officials have allowed Mr. Khawaja since he was arrested and charged earlier this week with two counts under the criminal code's anti-terrorism sections. In court documents, the RCMP allege Mr. Khawaja is a member of a terrorist organization and took part in terrorist activities in the last four months. They do not say which organization or what activities. However, a friend of the Khawaja family said the RCMP indicated that they believed the accused was involved in bomb-making.
Hummm, instructing the boys in England over the internet? If they've been under survillance the cops have transcripts of their e-mail.
Officials would not say if Mr. Khawaja had any role in planning possible terrorist attacks in Canada, but the RCMP conducted an extensive search of the Ottawa home that he shared with his mother and siblings. Police searched for bombs and bomb-making material. On Monday, British police arrested eight men and seized half a tonne of ammonium nitrate, a fertilizer compound used to make bombs. A ninth British Muslim of Pakistani descent was arrested yesterday under suspicion of belonging to the alleged bomb plot. Mr. Khawaja had recently travelled to London and Pakistan to visit relatives.
Cue "Family Affair" music.
Mr. Khawaja's father, Mahboob A. Khawaja, an administrator in Yanbu, Saudi Arabia, was arrested by Saudi officials Wednesday, according to his family. The Saudi Embassy in Ottawa had no comment on the arrest of the 62-year-old academic and writer. Mahboob Khawaja has written critically about American foreign policy, "corrupt Arab leadership," "American-Zionist political encroachment in the Middle East," and the West's response to terrorism and the war on terror.
Now he has a chance to do research on how corrupt Arab leadership responds to critics. He ought to get a bestseller out of it.
Posted by: Steve ||
04/02/2004 10:41:45 AM ||
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Link ||
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[Sigh!] It's always something...
The federal government is warning local authorities of possible attacks on the U.S. transportation system this summer, U.S. officials told Fox News. The FBI and Department of Homeland Security sent out warnings Thursday night saying there is uncorroborated information pointing to possible attacks on buses and trains, specifically, near major U.S. cities. "The plot calls for the use of improvised explosive devices possibly constructed of ammonium nitrate (fertilizer) and diesel fuel concealed in luggage and carry-on bags to include duffel bags and backpacks," states the warning, titled, "Subject: Alleged Plot Against Major U.S. Cities in the Summer of 2004." Ammonium nitrate is the chemical that was used in the Oklahoma City bombing.
The two agencies issued the warnings to law enforcement and security personnel throughout the country. The warning noted that Al Qaeda and other groups have proved they can attack public transportation with conventional explosives, vehicle-borne bombs and suicide bombers in places such as Greece, Israel and Turkey. The recent railway attacks in Madrid used plastic explosives concealed in backpacks. During terror raids in London this week, officials found and seized 1,000 pounds of ammonium nitrate. A group of eight British citizens of Pakistani origins were arrested on suspicion of being involved in possible terrorist attacks. The possibility of these attacks has been a factor as officials contemplate how to best secure locations in Boston and New York City this summer, the sites of the Democratic national conventions and the Republican conventions, respectively. One option New York City is considering, for example, is to shut down Penn Station â which is below Madison Square Garden, the site of some GOP convention activities â during major addresses, such as when President Bush is on stage or when he is in the building. But security experts said shutting down buildings or areas like Penn Station isnât realistic. "Thatâs really impossible â theyâd really be shutting down the economy," former NYPD squad commander Joe Cardinale told Fox News. "Youâre going to have to just step up all the efforts" and coordinate with local law enforcement, rail workers, unions and others on security, he added.
Thursdayâs warning was not part of the weekly bulletin usually sent out on Wednesdays, which this week covered visas, but a special, non-scheduled warning. In Thursdayâs warning, the FBI and DHS issued several guidelines for state homeland security advisors and staff, Department of Transportation, state emergency managers, the Transportation Security Administration and other law enforcement and security personnel. They include:
â Ensure all access portals have appropriate security measures, including surveillance.
â Approach all illegally parked vehicles in and around facilities.
â Monitor terminal parking lots for suspicious loitering.
â Remove trash receptacles.
â Ensure terminals and facility perimeters have sufficient lighting.
â Arrange for law enforcement to be parked near entrances and exits.
â Deploy an overt security presence outside public transpiration entrances.
The FBI has previously sent out warnings about threats to subways and railways. For example, On Jan. 28, the FBI said, "recent intelligence indicates a continued terrorist interest in conducting attacks on U.S. subways and railways." Furthermore, the March 11 bombing in Madrid has increased law enforcement concern about possible activity in the United States. Since then, much a lot of law enforcement attention in recent weeks has focused on Amtrak and local railroads. Railroad security is lagging compared to security at U.S. airports; baggage, for the most part, isnât searched, passengers donât go through metal detectors and a train can often be boarded without even presenting a ticket or identification. DHS recently announced initiatives to increase rail security, including bomb-sniffing dogs to be made available to local law enforcement and a pilot program to test luggage thatâs being brought aboard trains. One official told Fox News that since the Madrid bombings, there has been a certain amount of "chatter," "including boasting and bragging." The chatter indicated a U.S. transportation plot. Other officials note that the information, however, is "uncorroborated, non-specific threat reporting."
A DHS official told Fox News that there are no plans to raise the national threat level based on "a couple" of uncorroborated threats. "We overheard people talking about Madrid, then saying you should see whatâs going to happen later on," the official said of one conversation picked up in recent chatter. Given the severity of the Madrid attack and the recent arrests in London, which one official believes probably thwarted a terrorist attack, it was deemed wise to issue the bulletin, the official said. One DHS official said once a possible threat like this is deemed worthy of noting, law enforcement requests that those areas threatened take proper action. It is up to them â states, local officials, private sector â to decide how they will act. Some of those actions may include increased police presence, announcements to passengers advising them to keep their eyes open for random bags and other acts.
(Long (sorry) but a neat summary to what lead up to 9/11....)
How 9-11 happened
We donât need a "commission" to find out how 9-11 happened. The truth is in the timeline:
PRESIDENT CARTER, DEMOCRAT
In 1979, President Jimmy Carter allowed the Shah of Iran to be deposed by a mob of Islamic fanatics. A few months later, Muslims stormed the U.S. Embassy in Iran and took American Embassy staff hostage.
Carter retaliated by canceling Iranian visas. He eventually ordered a disastrous and humiliating rescue attempt, crashing helicopters in the desert.
PRESIDENT REAGAN, REPUBLICAN
The day of Reaganâs inauguration, the hostages were released.
In 1982, the U.S. Embassy in Beirut was bombed by Muslim extremists.
President Reagan sent U.S. Marines to Beirut.
In 1983, the U.S. Marine barracks in Beirut were blown up by Muslim extremists.
Reagan said the U.S. would not surrender, but Democrats threw a hissy fit, introducing a resolution demanding that our troops be withdrawn. Reagan caved in to Democrat caterwauling in an election year and withdrew our troops â bombing Syrian-controlled areas on the way out. Democrats complained about that, too.
In 1985 an Italian cruise ship, the Achille Lauro, was seized and a 69-year-old American was shot and thrown overboard by Muslim extremists.
Reagan ordered a heart-stopping mission to capture the hijackers after "the allies" promised them safe passage. In a daring operation, American fighter pilots captured the hijackers and turned them over to the Italians â who then released them to safe harbor in Iraq.
On April 5, 1986, a West Berlin discotheque frequented by U.S. servicemen was bombed by Muslim extremists from the Libyan Embassy in East Berlin, killing an American.
Ten days later, Reagan bombed Libya, despite our dear ally France refusing the use of their airspace. Americans bombed Qaddafiâs residence, killing his daughter, and dropped a bomb on the French Embassy "by mistake." Oops!
Reagan also stoked a long, bloody war between heinous regimes in Iran and Iraq. All this was while winning a final victory over Soviet totalitarianism.
PRESIDENT BUSH I, MODERATE REPUBLICAN
President-elect George Bush claimed he would continue Reaganâs policy of retaliating against terrorism, but did not. Without Reagan to gin her up, even Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher went wobbly, saying there would be no revenge for the bombing.
In 1990, Saddam Hussein invaded Kuwait.
In early 1991, Bush went to war with Iraq. A majority of Democrats opposed the war, and later complained that Bush didnât "finish off the job" with Saddam.
PRESIDENT BILL CLINTON, DEMOCRAT And his wife Hillary....
In February 1993, the World Trade Center was bombed by Muslim fanatics, killing five people and injuring hundreds.
Clinton, advised by Dick Clarke, did nothing.
In October 1993, 18 American troops were killed in a savage firefight in Somalia. The body of one American was dragged through the streets of Mogadishu as the Somalian hordes cheered.
Clinton responded by calling off the hunt for Mohammed Farrah Aidid and ordering our troops home. Osama bin Laden later told ABC News: "The youth ... realized more than before that the American soldier was a paper tiger and after a few blows ran in defeat." Thanks Clinton!
In November 1995, five Americans were killed and 30 wounded by a car bomb in Saudi Arabia set by Muslim extremists.
Clinton, advised by Dick Clarke, did nothing.
In June 1996, a U.S. Air Force housing complex in Saudi Arabia was bombed by Muslim extremists.
Clinton, advised by Dick Clarke, did nothing. Do I detect a pattern here???
Months later, Saddam attacked the Kurdish-controlled city of Erbil.
Clinton, advised by Dick Clarke, lobbed some bombs into Iraq hundreds of miles from Saddamâs forces.
In November 1997, Iraq refused to allow U.N. weapons inspections to do their jobs and threatened to shoot down a U.S. U-2 spy plane.
Clinton, advised by Dick Clarke, did nothing.
In February 1998, Clinton threatened to bomb Iraq, but called it off when the United Nations said no.
On Aug. 7, 1998, U.S. embassies in Kenya and Tanzania were bombed by Muslim extremists.
Clinton, advised by Dick Clarke, did nothing.
On Aug. 20, Monica Lewinsky appeared for the second time to testify before the grand jury.
Clinton responded by bombing Afghanistan and Sudan, severely damaging a camel and an aspirin factory.
On Dec. 16, the House of Representatives prepared to impeach Clinton the next day.
Clinton retaliated by ordering major air strikes against Iraq, described by The New York Times as "by far the largest military action in Iraq since the end of the Gulf War in 1991." Does it look like Clinton did this to distract people from his troubles at home??
The only time Clinton decided to go to war with anyone in the vicinity of Muslim fanatics was in 1999 â when Clinton attacked Serbians who were fighting Islamic fanatics.
In October 2000, our warship, the USS Cole, was attacked by Muslim extremists.
Clinton, advised by Dick Clarke, did nothing.
PRESIDENT GEORGE BUSH, REPUBLICAN
Bush came into office telling his national security adviser, Condoleezza Rice, he was "tired of swatting flies" â he wanted to eliminate al-Qaida.
On Sept. 11, 2001, when Bush had been in office for barely seven months, 3,000 Americans were murdered in a savage terrorist attack on U.S. soil by Muslim extremists.
Since then, Bush has won two wars against countries that harbored Muslim fanatics, captured Saddam Hussein, immobilized Osama bin Laden, destroyed al-Qaidaâs base, and begun to create the only functioning democracy in the Middle East other than Israel. Democrats opposed it all â except their phony support for war with Afghanistan, which they immediately complained about and said would be a Vietnam quagmire. And now they claim to be outraged that in the months before 9-11, Bush did not do everything Democrats opposed doing after 9-11.
#5
"Bad Press! The root of Islamist anti-Americanism."
----------------------
If you ever obtain a clue about the dependence of Islamist fanaticism upon propaganda to influence a largely uneducated populace, you might have a glimmer of understanding how America has come to be so roundly hated in the Middle East. You might want to read Lederer and Burdick's "The Ugly American" sometime.
Try Shrub's opening salvo of a "Crusade on Terrorism." That gaff died out right quick now, didn't it?
Until then, you're free to think that all this anti-Americanism is written out plain right there in the Qu'ran.
#6
And who, pray tell are you? Parade your expertise so I may be instructed. Obviously you believe this is merely a PR failure regards Islam. Fascinating.
Explain you statement regards Bush, please, I don't speak DU.
I believe you are fact, history, and timeline challenged. But don't let my doubts dissuade you from expounding upon the underlying logic of your statements. As I said, I'm rather behind the curve on DU Talking points. Please, enlighten us all.
#7
Our President is named George W. Bush.
You're not Molly Evil--Thank God--and calling Bush "Shrub" didn't stop her from putting a straw in her gin bottle!
And I'm fed up to the back teeth with the "Why does the Arab street hate us?" crap.
They love us. Ask around.
I've travelled all over the world, including the (former) Soviet Union, Red China, the Middle East and Egypt--we are loved and admired everywhere.
Most peoples' thoughts about the USA are "How can I get to live there instead of the shithole I seem doomed to live in here?".
Posted by: Jen ||
04/02/2004 18:16 Comments ||
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#8
"And I'm fed up to the back teeth with the "Why does the Arab street hate us?" crap.
They love us."
-------------------------
Yeah, especially in Fallujah.
You're preaching to the choir. Nearly everyone I've met in my travels around the world love America and want to move here too.
There just happens to be some real sinkholes of illiterate fundamentalism where bilious imams can still whip up a shitstorm of anti-Western fervor. Education is the key, but time does not permit dropping books instead of bombs right now.
The sooner we can get the world back on a peaceful track, the faster this sort of blind hatred can be overcome. Sadly (for the terrorists, that is), we will probably be obliged to exterminate every single Islamist fanatic before getting back to that more benign agenda. (And you gotta know that just rips my heart out.)
#9
Speaking as a non-American who has probably lived in more countries on more continents than the average Rantburger. If you went to any of these countries that supposedly hate America and started handing out green cards at random, then you would find a lot of people who would happily leave for America. The problem at its root is the losers resenting the winners especially the so called chattering classes. Whether that be a French film maker or a Saudi Iman. This is compounded by ideologies that say 'if you believe in this stuff you will be the winner'. And again this applies just as well to a Euro-socialist as a Wahabi muslims (and this is why they make common cause. They see the same reality and and are both in denial about it). Just watch the BBC for 20 minutes and you will see this thinking at work. 'America didn't win, isn't winning, can't win, and we have to stop them winning!'
The great divide in this world is between pragmatists and ideologues. Twas always thus!
#10
Come, come, Zenster - respond. You're all over the map playing the droll... or is that a misspelling?
I assure you, in case you're suffering from some identity crisis, that Touchstone you are not.
So address my questions to you. I long to be taught the error of my ways and you clearly implied you were more discerning and in possession of superior views.
#11
You know I love Ann! She nailed all of it! As for 'them' hating us, Phil is correct. They don't hate us as much as they envy us. The is especially true in the Arab street. If you offered green cards to every Palistian, the Gaza and West Bank would be ghost towns. Same for any other Arab 'paradises'. The exception might be Kuwait and Qatar.
#12
There just happens to be some real sinkholes of illiterate fundamentalism where bilious imams can still whip up a shitstorm of anti-Western fervor.
So it seems the problm lies with them, not us, unless one is a 'projection' theorist, prone to blame one's problems on everyone but themselves.
#13
.com, when you get over your sophomoric insinuations, let me know. Feel free to ask your questions in the thread where they arose.
----------------------
Raj, I'm the last to claim that the United States is utterly blameless in all of this. However, in no way imaginable did we deserve or merit the 9-11 atrocity. I just happen to see terrorism as such an ultimate evil and overarching threat to the entire globe that its agenda is completely nullified by their means. Please do not hesitate going into detail on this, as you seem to be a reasonable person.
#15
Dumpster - Just as I thought. You're simply a pretentious asshole. Nothing more, nothing less. You've demonstrated with that one statement that you have no vision, no comprehension, no original thought, nothing to offer here. You're a spell checker applied to a vaccuum of pseudo-anti-terror rhetoric; an idiotarian. So do fuck off, fucktard. You've overstayed your welcome.
#16
.com, if you need an explanation of why calling the WoT a "Crusade" demonstrates an IQ equal to dirt, then you need to look in the mirror while you spew your bile.
That one monumental "gaff" has been paraded ad nauseam by bin Laden and instantly served to polarize the WoT into religious terms. Shrub has done little enough to disspell this notion by continuing to paint pluralistic America as a Christian nation.
The WoT must be fought on ethical terms alone without the least hint of theological overtones. To approach it otherwise merely contributes undeserved momentum to the jihadists and not much else. It speaks rather ill for your perception of reality that you seem unable to appreciate this.
#17
That you refer to President Bush as "shrub" demonstrates you are either schizophrenic or duplicitous. In either case, your posts strike me as a parody of buffoonery - done too well to be accidental.
I find your now well-documented tough guy stance on terrorism incompatible with the wholesale denigation of the one man with the stones to wield America's might to fight it - and apparently hinging your judgement upon one word -- now that is truly stupid. Such sensitivity is clearly unhealthy and unbalanced. From this, I must conclude your words are wasted and empty gestures.
To have the alternative, Gore, as President today would simply be a disaster of the first order. Make that a series of disasters. Regards Bush, love him or hate him - but disrespect him? To arrive at your position requires you to be an idiotarian and / or intellectually dishonest ass, also of the first order.
"The WoT must be fought on ethical terms alone without the least hint of theological overtones. To approach it otherwise merely contributes undeserved momentum to the jihadists and not much else. It speaks rather ill for your perception of reality that you seem unable to appreciate this."
You obviously know less about Islam and Islamists, particularly Wahhabists, than you pretend. And, in that vein, I believe pretense is your main feature and contribution. Ponderous musings that, when distilled, yield precious little substance. I have no automatic bias against any poster - their posts determine my reaction. You fucked up, Dumpster, on this thread and the Ann Coulter Op-Ed thread - betraying your duplicitous and asinine true nature. Whatever else you may be, even including your claim of dedicated foe of terrorism, you're a self-defeating moron - polished posts notwithstanding. Give me a semi-literate but honest man or woman - those of your specious ilk can simply piss off.
You want to claim the high ground. Fine - I'm sure it will help you sleep well. You are easily the best and most perfect buffoon of hypocrisy I've ever encountered.
You should eschew Rantburg and start your own blog. I'm sure you'd be a massive success. You have such a uniquely offensive, arrogant "voice of God", yet smarmy style. What a draw you'd be.
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The United States said on Friday it will fingerprint and photograph the citizens of 27 nations that do not require U.S. visas, including visitors from close allies like Britain, Australia and Japan. Good idea.
State Department spokesman Adam Ereli said the new policy would be put in place at all U.S. airports and seaports by Sept. 30, requiring citizens of the 27 Visa Waiver Program countries to provide "two digital index finger scans and a digital photograph" to verify their identity.
The photographs and fingerprints are already required from citizens of other nations that do require U.S. visas and have proved unpopular among many, although U.S. officials say the process takes a matter of seconds and is needed to protect against attacks like those of Sept. 11, 2001.
Under U.S. law, the 27 nations must introduce passports with "biometric" data like fingerprints by Oct. 26 but the State Department and the U.S. Department of Homeland Security have asked Congress to approve a two-year extension because most, if not all, are not expected to meet the deadline.
"We believe that an extension ... will avoid potential disruption to international travel and at the same time (requiring the fingerprints and photographs) will help mitigate the security concerns related to extending the deadline for biometric passports," Ereli told reporters.
The 27 countries affected are Andorra, Australia, Austria, Belgium, Brunei, Denmark, Finland, France, Germany, Iceland, Ireland, Italy, Japan, Liechtenstein, Luxembourg, Monaco, the Netherlands, New Zealand, Norway, Portugal, San Marino, Singapore, Slovenia, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland and the United Kingdom. In related news, Illegal aliens can still get in free with no fingerprinting or picture and even get FREE health care and education.
#1
In even more related news, terrorists can still obtain valid passports and visas and enter the US at will. I don't see how this could prevent another 9-11... they'll just be more careful. That said, maybe this should be the standard for international travel, all over the world, not just the US.
Posted by: Rafael ||
04/02/2004 15:19 Comments ||
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#2
In even more related news, terrorists can still obtain valid passports and visas and enter the US at will. I don't see how this could prevent another 9-11... they'll just be more careful. That said, maybe this should be the standard for international travel, all over the world, not just the US.
Posted by: Rafael ||
04/02/2004 15:19 Comments ||
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#3
I have no problem with being fingerprinted and photographed upon entering a foreign country and anyone who does should stay home. Illegal Immigration will be shut down when the first attack on American soil that can be traced to terrorists entering via Mexico. Troops will be on the border and the willful blind eye turned to illegals will stop!
Posted by: Frank G ||
04/02/2004 15:44 Comments ||
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#4
This should have been done from day one, and especially important a person who has to apply for a visa should be photographed and finger printed at the consular office thus tying the person to the document.
Today's technology makes it quick and easy.
Actually nowadays it is possible to verify at the point of embarkation at check-in whether to allow the passenger to fly.
Come on America has to wake up to the fact that security has become more than a buzz word.
Posted by: Barry ||
04/02/2004 15:59 Comments ||
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#5
I dunno, I'm not convinced that hitting allies like the U.K. and Australia (and Lord knows they HAVE been allies) is such a wise thing. Seems to me that we'd work with those two governments and our other allies to come up with a plan whereas they can implement their own official procedures to insure that someone entering the U.S. is who they say they are, and not some sort of security threat. As far as I know, after arrival, once people have exited the terminal no one follows them around, so I don't see how getting fingerprints and a picture is going to "protect against attacks like those of Sept. 11, 2001", as they say.
U.S. officials have received intelligence indicating terrorists might attempt to slip into the United States using cultural, arts or sports visas, according to the FBI. The bureau issued a bulletin to 18,000 state and local law enforcement agencies nationwide warning about the potential misuse of P-visas, one of several types granted by the State Department for people visiting the United States for artistic, cultural or athletic purposes. "Recent intelligence indicates that terrorist groups may be interested in exploiting cultural visa programs to infiltrate operatives and support network into the United States," says the bulletin, described Thursday to The Associated Press by a federal law enforcement official. The bulletin, sent Wednesday, does not identify the source of the intelligence and contains no specific, corroborated evidence that any terrorists have entered the country this way.
Spies and defectors have in the past gained entry by tagging along with foreign sports teams or joining the entourages of famous performers. Some people granted these U.S. entry visas have even sold them to others. "Often, there have been problems," said Bill Strassberger, spokesman for U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services. "Is the person coming here for the stated purpose of the visa, or are they just trying to circumvent the program and stay here?" The FBI repeatedly has warned that al-Qaida frequently uses fraudulent or forged passports to allow operatives to move around the world, including a series of blank Saudi Arabian passports that were obtained before several imaging features were added to make them harder to alter. The Russian government last summer reported the theft of 2,500 blank passports that officials feared could fall into the hands of terrorists or criminals. Forged U.S. visas can sell for $25,000 in Pakistan, the FBI says.
The visas granted to arts, culture and sports figures and their support people are minuscule compared with the millions granted each year to regular tourist and business visitors. Kelly Shannon, spokewoman for the State Department's Bureau of Consular Affairs, said about 41,500 of these special visas were issued in 2001. To get such a visa, a sponsoring U.S. agency or company must petition Homeland Security. If that's approved, the State Department interviews, fingerprints and photographs each person. The names are run through a database of known terrorists, criminals and fraudsters, with confirmed matches leading to a denial. Some suspicious visas get flagged and are run through additional national security databases, and U.S. border personnel have access to the visa photograph and other information to guard against impersonators and tampering. The FBI and other agencies are working to merge separate U.S. terrorist watch lists into a single database, known as the Terrorist Screening Center, that is supposed to make the checks easier and faster. And the FBI and immigration officials are trying to make the FBI's huge fingerprint database of criminals and terrorists more accessible to agents at U.S. borders, airports and seaports. "The net is getting tighter," Strassberger said. "It's harder to slip through."
Posted by: Dan Darling ||
04/02/2004 1:19:16 AM ||
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#1
Another piercing Bureau glance into the blatantly obvious - no! You really think terrorists might try to sneak in disguised as something else? You mean they might NOT apply for your special JH-1B (jihadi in transit) visa?
Posted by: Sofia ||
04/02/2004 11:12 Comments ||
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Mexican President Vicente Fox said Friday the International Court of Justice and the United Nations will have to take action if the United States doesn't comply with a ruling that it review the cases of 51 Mexicans on death row.
In an interview with the board of directors for The Associated Press Managing Editors, Fox declined to say, however, whether Mexico would take additional measures if the U.S. government does not follow the order. "We don't have any actions planned because we're expecting (the United States) to comply," he told the APME board of directors, which represents 1,700 newspapers in the United States and Canada. The board of directors is meeting this week in Mexico City.
Don't hold your breath, El Presidente
The International Court of Justice, the United Nations' highest judiciary, ruled Wednesday that the United States violated the rights of Mexican inmates by denying them assistance from their government. That right is guaranteed under the 1963 Vienna Convention. The court ordered the United States to review the Mexican cases, but the U.S. government has ignored the court's rulings in the past. Wednesday's ruling raised questions from the eight states holding the inmates, but no assurances that they will try to address the court's concerns.
"What the hell do they want this time?"
Mexico's Foreign Relations Department said earlier this week that if U.S. officials don't comply voluntarily, Mexico would consider asking the U.N. Security Council to issue a resolution urging them to do so.
Yawn, go ahead. We'll just veto it.
Fox, who opposed the Iraq war and lobbied for a resolution within the U.N. Security Council, declined to say whether Mexico would take the death penalty cases to the United Nations. But he has pushed for the international body to be strengthened, saying Friday the United Nations must be given a "very, very strong moral authority that should be recognized by every nation."
Look, he put "moral authority" and "U.N. in the same sentance! Bwahahaha!
The death penalty has been a sore point in Mexican-U.S. relations, with Fox canceling a trip to meet with President Bush in 2002 after Texas executed a Mexican man convicted of killing a police officer. Fox is a strong opponent of the death penalty.
Kill your killers in Mexico and we won't have this problem.
He said Friday he hoped the United States would not only review the Mexican death penalty cases, but ensure that all future foreigners convicted of a major crime had access to consular assistance from their governments.
As far as I can tell, the complaint here is that consulates are not automatically notified every time one of their citizens is arrested. No one is stopping the perps from requesting help, it's just that they are not told about it. They also still don't seem to grasp the concept that we have individual states with their own laws and court systems. Assholes.
Posted by: Steve ||
04/02/2004 3:40:01 PM ||
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#1
"the International Court of Justice and the United Nations will have to take action..."
I'm sorry, I can't stop laughing.
Posted by: Matt ||
04/02/2004 16:39 Comments ||
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#2
I guess we'll have to hurry up and kill 'em. God forbid, we'd have to face the wrath of the International Court of Justice AND the UN, but I think I could live with the consequences.
#3
Here is a link to the ICJ, and here is the current composition of this esteemed judicial body:
President
Shi Jiuyong (China)
Vice-President
Raymond Ranjeva (Madagascar)
Judges
Gilbert Guillaume (France)
Abdul G. Koroma (Sierra Leone)
Vladlen S. Vereshchetin (Russian Federation)
Rosalyn Higgins (United Kingdom)
Gonzalo Parra-Aranguren (Venezuela)
Pieter H. Kooijmans (Netherlands)
Francisco Rezek (Brazil)
Awn Shawkat Al-Khasawneh (Jordan)
Thomas Buergenthal (United States of America)
Nabil Elaraby (Egypt)
Hisashi Owada (Japan)
Bruno Simma (Germany)
Peter Tomka (Slovakia)
Registrar
Mr. Philippe Couvreur (Belgium)
It is so reasurring that Presidente Fox has such concern for his convicted murdering countymen. This is simply a power play on his part. Try getting some justice as an American in a Mexican jail.
Posted by: Alaska Paul ||
04/02/2004 16:56 Comments ||
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#4
Mexican President Vicente Fox said Friday the International Court of Justice and the United Nations will have to take action if the United States doesn't comply with a ruling that it review the cases of 51 Mexicans on death row.
Take action??? And what, pray tell, is this "action" going to be?
Note to GWB: this is what you get for your efforts to be buddies with a sleazoid like Fox. You may want to think long and hard about that little amnesty plan of yours.
#5
I respectfully disagree here. The Vienna Conventions of 1963 is an internation treaty the United States have signed. Hence it needs to follow them. Let's take a look at the paragraph in question:
Article 36
COMMUNICATION AND CONTACT WITH NATIONALS OF THE SENDING STATE
1. With a view to facilitating the exercise of consular functions relating to nationals of the sending State:
(a) consular officers shall be free to communicate with nationals of the sending State and to have access to them. Nationals of the sending State shall have the same freedom with respect to communication with and access to consular officers of the sending State;
(b) if he so requests, the competent authorities of the receiving State shall, without delay, inform the consular post of the sending State if, within its consular district, a national of that State is arrested or committed to prison or to custody pending trial or is detained in any other manner. Any communication addressed to the consular post by the person arrested, in prison, custody or detention shall also be forwarded by the said authorities without delay. The said authorities shall inform the person concerned without delay of his rights under this sub-paragraph;
(c) consular officers shall have the right to visit a national of the sending State who is in prison, custody or detention, to converse and
correspond with him and to arrange for his legal representation. They shall also have the right to visit any national of the sending State who is in prison, custody or detention in their district in pursuance of a judgment. Nevertheless, consular officers shall refrain from taking action on behalf of a national who is in prison, custody or
detention if he expressly opposes such action.
2. The rights referred to in paragraph 1 of this Article shall be exercised in conformity with the laws and regulations of the receiving State, subject to the proviso, however, that the said laws and regulations must enable full effect to be given to the purposes for which the rights accorded under this Article are intended.
What does this mean: The detainee has the right to request consular assistance AND he MUST be informed about this right. And as individual the states and their laws may be, they HAVE to enact this.
I'm sorry, but in this case the U.S. has simply violated the Vienna Convention it signed, if it didn't inform the Mexicans of their right and/or denied them consular assistance.
This is critical, not only for Mexicans. Imagine that an American gets arrested somewhere and is denied those rights. How would you react to that? (It happens but if revealed the U.S. usually stirs up big shit.) And when your life is on the line, you WANT to make sure that these conventions are enforced.
The ICJ has ordered stays of executions in other cases (including German nationals) which have been ignored by the U.S. The United States have argued that, even though admittedly the convicted foreign nationals had not been informed of their rights under the Vienna Convention, this omission was not deliberate and the assistance of consular officers would not have altered the outcome of the proceedings brought against them, so that in consequence they had not been prejudiced by the absence of notification.
If these were singular, rare cases, the argument could be considered valid. (The U.S. offers an apology to the offended state and thats that.) The problem is that there seems to be a pattern of behaviour: Foreign nationals are frequently and deliberately denied those rights. And this makes it a matter of the ICJ. Of course the U.S. can ignore this ruling again, but by doing this the question arises whether the United States is willing to honor treaties and conventions it signed in general or whether it can ignore them with impunity, thus invalidating them anytime it sees fit.
You lose more than a few Mexicans who aren't executed because of this. You have released proven criminals because they were not read the Miranda rights. The principle of promoting the public's confidence in the fairness of the criminal justice system was, in the case of the Miranda Rights, felt to weigh more than the extremely annoying fact that a criminal may walk free. It should be the same with international treaties you sign. Or they mean nothing.
If you are so unhappy to follow ICJ rulings, let the U.S. Supreme Court enforce the Vienna Conventions.
#6
TGA: What do you want to bet that these Mexican citizens are in the US illegally, and thus have already committed a Federal crime? Murder, however, is inevitably a State crime, and the State didn't sign no Vienna convention.
If the perps were tried in a Federal court, the Convention would apply. Not that having a Mexican mouthpiece would help much, probably.
#7
mojo, this has nothing to do with State or Federal crime. This would be like saying that the U.S. signs a convention against torture and then claims this convention doesn't apply to state police, only to the FBI.
The Vienna Convention protects citizens of free democratic countries abroad much more than the other way round, which is obvious. The U.S. signed it to protect its citizens abroad but this comes with a few drawbacks.
#8
TGA, the United States Congress (both houses) would never ratify the signing of a treaty like the Vienna Convention.
It is against our federal Constitution and that of our 50 states.
This goes for the ICC and Kyoto, too.
A rogue POTUS such as Bill Clinton can pretend to sign it on the U.S's behalf, but he didn't have that kind of power. God be thanked!
Posted by: Jen ||
04/02/2004 19:27 Comments ||
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#9
This would be like saying that the U.S. signs a convention against torture and then claims this convention doesn't apply to state police, only to the FBI.
I see your point, TGA, but this was precisely the reason I had to pay California income tax on Australian income I earned in Australia after I moved there from California. I did not owe federal taxes on this income. "The United States has a tax treaty with Australia. California does not," was what the California tax man told me.
This was quite an eye-opener, especially since it was my impression that it was illegal for individual states to actually enter into separate treaties with foreign governments.
#10
Jennie, the United States ratified, without reservations, the Vienna Conventions in 1969. The Federal government has responsibility for the ratification of international law and treaties.
Imagine an American being arrested in Germany. He claims his rights and the Germans say: Forget it, you were arrested in Bavaria and Bavaria didn't ratify the conventions, Germany did.
#11
TGA, if an American were convicted of a crime of heinous murder(as all these pieces of shit were) in a foreign country that required all the safeguards and defenses and appeals that the U.S. requires prior to execution, I would have no problem with them going through with it. We don't want them back, citizen or not. I doubt Mexico does either, and their justice system is based on Napoleonic law: guilty until proven innocent. I doubt Fox wants em back, but I say we call their bluff and offer to release them to HIS custody...as long as they stay with his wife and kids
Posted by: Frank G ||
04/02/2004 19:53 Comments ||
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#12
I'll probably get flamed for this, but TGA is probably right. There's nothing in this segment of the Vienna Convention that violates the US Constitution and the case law is, IIRC, that foreign treaties trump federal and local law. The case law was in regard to some migratory bird treaty we signed with Canada many, many years ago. One of the states took the Feds to court over it and the Supreme Court swatted them down.
There are two real problems here as I see it:
1. In one of the most disaggregated federal systems in the world (even our states are federal systems) how do you make sure that the Possumtrot, Tennessee constable knows that this is the law of the land? An almost impossible task.
2. Fox, more so than any of his predecessors, seems to be enabling illegal immigration to the US and eroding US sovereignty in the border states. The matricular consular cards, voter drives among the illegal population (to vote in Mexican, not US elections), the ongoing drives to get illegal immigrants driver licenses, and the documented cooperation between Latino politicians on both side of the border on the above issues and more. He's in weak position, so a lot of it may be pandering -- being more PRI than the PRI. This has a lot of citizens here pissed, TGA. I'm half Mexican. I spent a good portion of my adult life in Latin America. I know exactly how corrupt and racist the Latin culture is. I don't want it imported here. Unfortunately, that's what Fox and his allies on both sides of the border seem to be pushing. The consular notification thing is just one little pixel of a much larger picture.
#13
Your states in Germany, like Bavaria, don't have the same powers that our states do--The laws of the federal government aren't allowed to abridge, supercede or override the laws and rights of the 50 states except for special exceptions (see Amendments).
No Senator or Congressperson worth their salt will ratify a treaty that allows our national sovreignity and our laws to be challenged.
If JFK signed it, more fool he.
You're claiming to be German won't help you if you murder someone in Texas.
If convicted, you'll go to Death Row, Vienna Convention or no.
Might as well have said Vienna sausages.
It's called the Law of the Land, which every person must respect, including tourists and illegal immigrants--that's why we require passports and visas.
Every visitor knows he or she becomes subject to the laws of the place they're in, "fair" or not.
Vicente Fox is an ungrateful whiner, as our these Mexicans who killed Americans while they were enjoying the benefits of this country illegally and want to be let off.
Posted by: Jen ||
04/02/2004 19:58 Comments ||
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#14
Jennie, sorry to contradict: Germany has a rather pronounced federal structure. Police in Germany is a state (länder) thing. But they would not dream of denying foreigners their right to consular assistance. And this is not an issue about foreigners being above the law or anything like that, it is about a (mutual) right that has been granted.
The convention was obviously signed by Richard Nixon (1969), not JFK.
I bet the Americans did not sign it because they wanted a better protection of Mexicans in the US, but a better protection of Americans in Mexico (or elsewhere).
I think you don't understand what the Vienna Conventions were about. Consular assistance does NOTHING that could put U.S. federal or state law in jeopardy. All it does is to grant foreigners access to information. Imagine a German arrested for something he may or may not have done. He doesn't speak any English. So he is at a clear disadvantage. He might easily be tricked or coerced into something an American would not fall for. (Let's not assume that every law enforcement guy is an angel.) But he has the right to get consular advice. Most of the time the consular officer will just tell him what his rights are, give him the addresses of lawyers who speak German and watch the case. No sovereignty affected.
And again, the Vienna Conventions are far more important for Americans abroad. Sometimes the embassy or consulate may be the only lifeline for him if he gets arrested in some shithole. In countries like the USA the Consular assistance most of the time is a mere formality, in shithole places it can mean the difference between life or death (because of corrupt legal systems).
If the U.S. violates the conventions, shithole countries will feel a lot less obliged to honor them... and the U.S. would be in a much weaker position to enforce them. The Shithole State could just say, oh yeah, we signed it, but Camel Shit County did not, so there.
Giving the Mexicans access to their consulate (which will probably do shit for them anyway) is a very minor trade off, don't you think.
I won't speculate about Fox' true motives. But Vienna Convention Violations by the U.S. brought Germany to sue the U.S. at the ICJ. And it won. The U.S. still ignored the rulings and executed the German brothers LeGrand. Now those brothers were guilty as hell, but that's not the issue. It's a matter of principles, honored treaties and international relations.
Once again: Claiming to be German doesn't save me from Death Row if convicted. It grants me the right to consular assistance. It has nothing to do with law fair or not. In Saudi Arabia an American may still get his lashes for drinking alcohol. But consular assistance may see to it that the American gets a lawyer who is competent enough to get the American out of trouble, if he didn't drink alcohol in the first place. And the first think that consular officer would do is to tell the American: Don't sign curlywurlies you don't understand.
#15
You know, I know you're in EUroland, liebchen, and therefore are so immersed in Transnational Progressivism that you can't think straight (except for your visits to sanity here at RB!), but there is really no such animal as "international law."
Vicente Fox can whine all he wants to, to the ICJ and UNSC: it won't do him any good.
Dunno about consular help, but how can Mexicans seek consular help if they're here illegally?
And they were all given fair jury trials with bilingual help and legal advice.
Trust me: we've got plenty of that here, too.
I'm sure we could find German-speaking lawyers for you, too, should you break the American law.
Heck! I'll bet we'd let you ship in your own lawyer from Deutschland.
Don't know about what Nixon signed--don't care.
You come to the US and break our laws, especially murder, and you're going to pay the price, i.e. death penalty.
Ask Roman Polanski when the last time he visited our fair shores?
Is molesting an underage girl OK? Not in the state of California.
Just because the EU and Mexico don't like the death penalty doesn't give them more excuse to whine or get off.
Fox should just shut up.
If there was ever a "shitty little country," it can be Mexico.
G-d knows what he and President Bush had to say to each other in Crawford...Bush:"Adios, pendejo."?
Posted by: Jen ||
04/02/2004 20:46 Comments ||
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#16
TGA's points and expertise are hard to discount - I'm buying!
One quibble (lol!): in Saudi the consular officials could do this, but wouldn't bother. What happens is that every JVC company, middlemen who actually employ us so they can take a cut from whomever is paying for our actual time & expertise, always employ one or more facilitators. Native Arabic speakers from one of the GCC countries.
These guys do the work of getting your tail untangled. You want to be on good terms with them. If you're not a big money-maker for the JVC, they are not terribly swift to come to your aid. But they do have a large "deposit" at stake, for they are responsible for your behavior in-kingdom - and various laws allow the Gov't to fine them... they will eventually come to your aid if the charge allows for it. Usually the problem is solved with baksheesh and never reaches beyond the local station of the "police" who've arrested you. They'll pay the guys upstream.
If you're arrested by the religious police, the mutawas, well then, it can get very sticky. Only 3 nationalities can usually expect to get off the hook with a small handslap, overnight jail stay, or deportation: US / UK / CA. Every other passport is less likely to be given such a pass. Nor are their companies held in such esteem for they are providing the "lesser" imported talent and so they will choose not to intervene at times, to save their business interests and show proper cowardice to their Saudi Masters. It can be very rough, indeed, for some nationalities.
The UK guys who were tortured for the siddiqi (alcohol - Arabic for "friend") business ran afoul of Saudi partners who were connected - so they got "special case" treatment from Nayef's boyz. If nothing else, the Saudis look out for each others' business interests. When these guys were deemed troublesome or whatever, they found out how dangerous it is to do illicit biz in Saudi with Saudis.
#17
Well...this is the third time within five years that a country has instituted proceedings against the United States over alleged violations of the 1963 Vienna Convention in connection with the death penalty. Each of the previous times resulted in an execution. TGA want to take bets on what happens here?
#18
Jennie, I'm afraid you still don't get it. This is not an attack on the U.S. legal system which probably is just fine. It also is not about "international law". It is about a thing the U.S. agreed to, signed it, ratified it. Hell if the U.S. signed that every Mexican gets tacos in jail it would be BOUND by that signature.
The U.S. signed the conventions to protect its citizens abroad. Tit for tat. Nobody is questioning your laws. Roman Polanski broke it, so nobody could have complained if he had landed in a Californian jail. In California prostitution is illegal, in Germany it is not. Yet no German could complain about going to court for solliciting a pro in downtown L.A. But he has the right to call his consulate (which probably will be enthusiastic to help him but anyway).
You don't care what your presidents sign? If you don't like it, don't sign it. Nobody forced Nixon to sign it.
Btw it doesn't matter whether you are in the country legally or not (that just adds another offense, thats all).
.com, yeah Saudi is a real legal shithole. Reality is often very different from treaties and conventions but still. Of course, the smaller and unimportant the country the easier it may be to enforce these consular regulations. Americans running into trouble in Honduras will really appreciate the consulate's help.
#19
TGA, you still don't get it: these Mexicans are going to get it and by it I mean the death penalty.
Period.
Posted by: Jen ||
04/02/2004 21:29 Comments ||
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#20
valentine, every time the U.S. breaks treaties or conventions it signs AND ignores rulings of the ICJ, other nations will lose a little more trust in the validity of U.S. signatures.
An example. It is universally understood that in battles, the guy coming up to you with a white flag is the guy who wants to negotiate and you don't shoot him. Sometimes he may get shot anyway. But if you systematically shoot the guy with the white flag, they won't come anymore.
Both sides lose. Because those guys can be quite useful.
And in one of those days you might really need a guy with a white flag...
#21
Jennie, I don't care about those Mexicans, I care about the United States losing more and more trust in international relations when they ignore treaties they sign.
#22
TGA, you're babbling about rules of warfare.
Here's the bottom line on Mexicans: The ones Fox is talking about were here illegally, enjoying all of the benefits of American citizenship with none of the duties, like paying taxes.
We are not going to let them do all that and murder actual American citizens with impunity.
Period. It's not going to happen.
Vicente Fox is just working the "soft" Liberal Tranzi EU political climate because it's against the U.S. as you just demonstrated by your sweeping statement of distrust about our "international relations."
That is Bullshit. Scheiss.
The whole world knows that the U.S. keeps its word.
I'm sick of tired of America being the Designated Adult for a globe full of bratty, spoiled children but I guess that's the way it is.
Posted by: Jen ||
04/02/2004 21:44 Comments ||
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#23
And yes, I travel abroad alot.
In fact, I've been around the world twice.
Posted by: Jen ||
04/02/2004 21:44 Comments ||
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#24
Sigh... Jennie you should know me better.
What is the first thing YOU would do if they arrested you in a country with a language you don't understand, where you know nobody, where you might not have a clue what they want from you.
In those countries you might not enjoy the right to call a lawyer, or your husband, or your hairdresser.
But due to the Vienna Conventions you can insist that your Consulate is informed about you and has access to you.
Why should those countries honor the Vienna Conventions if the U.S. doesn't?
It's not about illegal, murder, liberal or anything else.
And yes, especially the Designated Adult is expected to keep his word.
Treaties are not only for the others to keep. And if I remember well the disregard for the Vienna Conventions was the only thing Germany ever sued the United States for in the ICJ.
#25
TGA, do those provisions cover one who has entered another country illegally? If they were here w/a visa as documented Mexican nationals then I contend you are right, if not, I'd wager Jennie may have an argument on ICJ authority. Just an observation.
#26
Apples and oranges, TGA--the Vienna Convention doesn't apply here and Fox knows it.
The accused weren't here as visitors or tourists, but as illegal workers.
When I travelled to Europe, Asia, Egypt, the Soviet Union and Red China, I knew that I was then at the mercy of my host government and wasn't depending on some high-flown treaties signed for photo ops by world leaders.
Not only have I travelled extensively, but I've lived in the United Kingdom twice and Paris twice.
I made sure not to break the law which is what these poor bastards should have done.
I've even visited (West) Germany--went to Der Passionspiel in Oberammagau which was very pleasant, but I threw up in the München airport on the way.
My dad liked Germany a lot when he was there liberating it from National Socialism--being a tall, blonde, I think they thought he was Aryan.
Posted by: Jen ||
04/02/2004 22:13 Comments ||
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#27
Jarhead, if the authorities KNEW that they were Mexicans (or the Mexicans told them) then the Vienna Conventions apply. (Imagine an American accidentally crossing some non recognizable border and getting arrested, he would have the right to consular assistance.)
If the Mexicans were trying to pass as Americans (or witheld information about not being Americans), that would indeed change things.
I don't believe that anyone gets sentenced to death without being properly identified, right? So when the authorities learned about the nationality they had to inform the Mexicans of their right to inform the consulate. The Mexicans could have waived the right though. But if they weren't told they couldn't waive it.
As ICJ rulings are not binding the U.S. can ignore them. That's the case with most international treaties. But you have good reason to keep treaties, even if they are annoying at times.
You had a reason to sign them in the first place. No regrets later.
#28
Jennie that would be like arguing that the Mexicans had no right to Consular assistance because they were doing something illegal... which would defy the whole purpose of the Vienna Conventions.
Those conventions are not "high-flown treaties", they regulate a lot of important things, including the protection of your ambassador from being arrested in the host country and so on.
Oh btw, sometimes it's damn difficult NOT to break a single law in the country you are travelling in. Especially U.S. states have some of the weirdest laws in the world ;-)
#29
Mein Gott, you are stubborn.
Consulates are for visas and passports for legal visitors, guests and tourists.
Texas alone has millions of illegal Mexican immigrants.
The fact that they live, work, and have children here illegally subjects them to the same laws as the rest of us.
The Vienna Convention signed in '69 was about Treaties.
Henry Kissinger, a German Jew by birth and a genius about American power and its uses, would have never allowed President Nixon to sign anything that would have truly compromised American power or thrown the law of the 50 states into conflict with "international law."
I imagine that Germany's pretty lax with its Turkish illegal immigrant criminals, but if a German murders someone in Turkey, betcha you get the death penalty there...after you call the German consulate.
Posted by: Jen ||
04/02/2004 22:44 Comments ||
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#30
Jennie, who is the stubborn here?
Are you trying to tell me that Nixon never signed the Vienna Conventions?
Or that they don't apply to people who live in the States illegally?
Sorry, that's not even the position of the current U.S. government.
Damn, why don't you understand that THERE IS NO conflict of law here. Not a single federal law, not a single law from any of the 50 states. Nobody questions the fact that those Mexicans are subject to the same laws than U.S. citizens.
But being Mexicans, they have the right to call their consulate. They have that right because the U.S. wanted THEIR citizens to have the right to call their consulate.
Their presence in the U.S. being legal or illegal is completely irrelevant.
Btw in the German case the German citizens in question were living legally in the U.S.
#31
Hell if the U.S. signed that every Mexican gets tacos in jail it would be BOUND by that signature.
Here in California, they probably do anyway. :)
I do see your point about treaties, and if those Mexican nationals are legal immigrants, I would say that U.S. authorities should have provided what was due them under the treaty. However, if these people are illegal immigrants, I'd say that's another story. (no details on this were provided in the linked piece, so I just put forth my takes on either scenario)
#32
"Their presence in the U.S. being legal or illegal is completely irrelevant."
Actually their presence being illegal or LEGAL is EXTREMELY RELEVANT to the case at hand. The Vienna Convention of 1963 doesn't even address whether that foreign national may be in a state illegaly or legally, it merely addresses his apprehension and the procedure that should happen afterwards.
Considering that Mexico is pushing for getting illegal's across the US's border and trying to get them drivers' licenses as well as other forms of ID even though they aren't supposed to have them you can bet your bottom that the US public won't give a horses ass what the rest of the world thinks when the world tries to tell them how to act.
Suspected Islamic insurgents shot and killed a local politician Friday as Thailand's prime minister admitted his government has been unable to do anything to stop the escalating violence in the Muslim-dominated south. Daoh Kareeuma, 56, an elected official of a village administration in Yala province, was ambushed by two gunmen as he arrived home after going round his village on a motorcycle, police Capt. Jirasak Wichaicharoenying said.
The death raised to 59 the number of people killed this year in the almost daily cycle violence gripping the southern provinces of Yala, Narathiwat and Pattani, the only Muslim majority areas in the predominantly Buddhist country. The government says the culprits are Islamic separatists, who have targeted policemen, village officials and others belonging to the Buddhist majority. Also Friday, two gunmen shot and seriously injured the husband of a woman who works in a village administration office, said police Sub. Lt. Ith Boonrith. The government's increasing desperation was evident in Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra's most recent comments on the issue.``We seem to know everything about what the bad guys are doing but we cannot do anything to solve even a single problem,'' he said Thursday. ``Troubles in the south have affected the country's image very, very, very much.''
Tourist board is on heavy meds.
He also complained that the insurgents easily go across the border to neighbouring Malaysia because they hold dual citizenship. Thaksin has said he plans to visit Malaysia on April 9 to meet with his counterpart Datuk Seri Abdullah Ahmad Badawi to press for cooperation in tracking down the insurgents. Malaysia has not confirmed the visit.``Villages on the Malaysian border are safe havens ... It's easy for them. They killed people here and went to Malaysia and openly held meetings about breaking away'' from Thailand, Thaksin said.
Kind of like Pakland, ain't it?
He said he was not making accusations against Malaysia but only asking for their cooperation. Deputy Prime Minister Chavalit Yongchaiyudh said Friday the government will hold a meeting of security officials on Monday to prepare evidence of the insurgents' Malaysian incursions, which Thaksin would present to Abdullah.
Which he will politely receive, and then ignore.
Thailand had successfully dealt with a decades-old separatist insurgency in the area in the late 1980s. But it resurfaced two years ago before gaining strength this year to pose the country's biggest domestic security challenge.
In the 80's it was just the locals, most likely. Now they are getting support from Worldwide Jihadi, Inc.
Fears of a major attack on civilian targets during the Thai New Year festival, known as Songkran, April 13-15, have been raised since armed raiders stole a huge quantity of explosives from a quarry in Yala on Tuesday. On Thursday, officials ordered all 10 quarries in southern Thailand to hand their rock-blasting explosives to the army for safekeeping. Also Thursday, another large unprotected cache was found stored in an abandoned marble mine.
Meanwhile, killings, torture and kidnappings of residents in southern Thailand by government agents have fueled the deadly violence now sweeping the Muslim-majority region, Deputy Prime Minister Chaturon Chaisang said Friday. Chaturon travelled to the restive south and admitted that residents, Muslim leaders and civil officials told him they were angry over years of mistreatment at the hands of the government, and that the region's mounting frustration eventually bubbled over into violence this year. ``The main cause of the problem has been government officials who are alleged to have tortured and killed people which has fueled the problem of terrorism and separatism,'' he told reporters in Bangkok.
"Alleged" by whom?
Chaturon was sent by Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra on a fact-finding mission to the three southern provinces of Yala, Pattani, and Narathiwat which have been rocked by attacks that have left at least 55 people dead this year. Muslim leaders in the south have long complained about the central authorities' handling of southern issues including the unrest, and said heavy handed searches or interrogations, unwarranted detentions and arrests have fueled animosity and anger.
"Yeah, we be innocent victims! We wouldn't have any violence if you would just give us our own caliphate, er, homeland!"
Chaturon did not elaborate on the apparent extrajudicial killings or torture, but when asked if politicians were linked to the actions Chaturon said he believed some were involved in illegal activities ``from time to time''.
Like this one, perhaps?
Last month a Thai court approved an arrest warrant for Najmuddin Umar, a Muslim MP and member of Thaksin's Thai Rak Thai party who faced charges of treason and separatism for his role in a January 4 raid on a Narathiwat arms depot which killed four soldiers. Chaturon said government was to convene an extraordinary meeting next Monday in which he expected to present his trip's findings to Thaksin.``The whole policy towards aiming and solving problems in the south will be overhauled in line with public suggestions and the resolution will be immediately implemented,'' he said.
In other words, you're going to talk about it and pass a feel-good resolution.
On Saturday a bomb blast in the popular Thai tourist border town of Sungai Kolok along the Malaysian border injured 28 people, including several Malaysian tourists. An approved budget of 12 billion baht (US$303 million) in assistance to the beleaguered region was put on hold after the Saturday blast, but Chaturon said it was imperative that the money be allowed to flow. Deputy prime minister Chavalit Yongchaiyudh, who oversees security, said Monday's meeting would map out measures to cope with possible attacks by militants during the traditional Thai new year in mid-April. Thaksin has admitted the situation in the south was escalating, particularly after the theft on Tuesday of a huge amount of explosive materials from a quarry in Narathiwat province which borders Malaysia.
Better find it before it finds you.
Posted by: Steve ||
04/02/2004 2:33:03 PM ||
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The alleged Abu Sayyaf bandit arrested in Quezon City, was an anchorman, until early this year, in a radio station run by the military. Walter Ancheta Villanueva, who was arrested by the police Wednesday in a Quezon City mall, was the anchorman of radio program Light of Peace aired over radio station dwDD. The program, military officials said, was aimed at bridging the gap between Christians and Muslims.
Guess which side of the gap he was on.
Brig. Gen. Victor Corpus, commander of the Armed Forces Civil Relations Service, which oversees the operation of the radio station said Villanueva was indeed a âblock timerâ at the radio station.
"block timer" - scheduler? Damm broadcasters, can't trust any of them :)
Corpus said the military and the police are still verifying if Villanueva, a Muslim convert, is indeed a member of the Abu Sayyaf.
Bingo!
âWe are still verifying if Villanueva is an Abu Sayyaf member. If that is confirmed, then I must bear some responsibility for his having been allowed to work in the radio station,â Corpus told Today. While Corpus said he is willing to be held responsible, Lt. Col. Daniel Lucero, chief of the Armed Forces public information office, was quick to brush aside observations that there was negligence on the part of the military in recruiting anchor men for the radio station.
It's not like it was a sensitive position that required a deep backround check.
Villanuevaâs radio program was reportedly scrapped in January. In a separate interview, Chief Supt. Joel Goltiao, National Police spokesman, said that as far as the police is concerned, it is âpositiveâ that Villanueva is an Abu Sayyaf bandit. However, Goltiao said this has to be confirmed with the National Police Intelligence Group. The police claimed to have confiscated from Villanueva 10 kilos of trinitrotoluene (TNT), wires connected to a dry cell battery and cellular telephone and a 9mm pistol when he was arrested Wednesday.
That seems to be pretty good confirmation right there.
According to authorities, Villanueva was planning to carry out bombings in Metro Manila.
Relatedly, the militaryâs Southern Command announced the arrest of four alleged Abu Sayyaf bandits implicated in the kidnapping of 54 students and teachers and a priest in Sumisip, Basilan, four years ago. Arrested were Nasir Hapilon, older brother of Abu Sayyaf commander Isnilon Hapilon, who was included on the list of the five most wanted Philippine terrorists by the US; Hamil Abdulbasar alias Kasir Ibrahim, 31; Jumadil Abdulhan, 25 and Julpikar Abdulbasar, 24.
Authorities said the four were arrested by a combined team from the Marines, naval intelligence and Military Intelligence Group 9 in their safe house at Rio Hondo Aplaya in Zamboanga City before noon Thursday. Authorities said the bandits were collared after an informant tipped off the police that the four were waiting for a vessel bound for Malaysia.
Tap..tap..nope.
The military said that based on initial interrogation, Hamid admitted that he was a student of slain Abu Sayyaf leader Abdurajak Abubakar Janjalani.
"Ouch, yes, he was my teacher! Now put that down!"
Meanwhile, Defense Secretary Eduardo Ermita, concurrent coordinator of the Antiterrorism Task Force, said Abu Sayyaf bandits have been training Muslim converts to carry out terror attacks in Metro Manila. Ermita said six bandits captured this week for plotting âMadrid-levelâ bomb attacks in Manila had confessed that they were recruiting Muslim converts because they would not stand out and arouse suspicion.
Err, just how do you tell a Philippine born Muslim from a Philippine born Catholic by looking at them?
The wife of one of the six suspected Abu Sayyaf members had said they were Muslim converts, but denied they were involved in terrorism. She accused security forces of torturing her husband into confessing an allegation quickly denied by Ermita. Islamic community leaders on Friday denounced a wave of arrests of suspected terrorists, accusing the Philippine government of using minority Muslims as âsacrificial lambs.â Relatives of at least two men -- including Redendo Cain Dellosa, who allegedly admitted to a February ferry bombing that claimed more than 100 lives -- said the men had been abducted, framed and tortured.
Yeah, yeah, I know, religion of peace, we was framed, lies, lies.
Remedios Fatima Balbin, a lawyer for Dellosa, said he cried when she saw him for the first time on Friday, more than a week after he was taken into custody. He claimed he signed a confession to stop being tortured, she said. Police have denied the allegations. âWe are now calling on our brother Muslims. . .to unite and condemn these arrests,â said Abdulbasit Marangit, an Islamic preacher in Manilaâs Quiapo district, one of the largest Muslim communities outside the traditional Islamic homeland in the southern Philippines. Community leader Charlie de Makota read a statement from the Alliance of United Muslims Against Human Rights Violations and Terrorism, saying the governmentâs antiterror campaign has caused fear among innocent Muslims. He said Muslim communities wonât protest whenever the government arrests genuine terrorists.
"Like the IRA, or the Eskimo Liberation Front! Or anyone who ain't islamic, they're all terrorists, but no muslims, see?"
Sen. Aquilino Pimentel Jr., meanwhile, challenged law-enforcement authorities to present to the media the six suspected Abu Sayyaf terrorists they have arrested to enable the public to determine the truth behind allegations they were out to bomb shopping malls and trains in Metro Manila.
Posted by: Steve ||
04/02/2004 1:25:21 PM ||
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#1
You can tell a Muslim-born Filipino by his language and accent. The Filipino Muslims, other than a small number of converts, are members of specific ethnic groups in the south, who have their own languages. These would not pass as natives of Manila, or of a Christian ethnic group like Visayans, Zamboangans, Tagalogs, etc.
Abu Sayyaf bandits have been training Muslim converts to carry out terror attacks in Manila, Defense Secretary Eduardo Ermita said Friday, as four more were arrested in an anti-terror crackdown. Ermita, who also heads an anti-terror task force, said six Abu Sayyaf suspects captured this week for plotting "Madrid-level" bomb attacks in Manila had confessed that they were recruiting Muslim converts because they would not stand out and arouse suspicion.
There's a simple solution: kill anybody who converts. That's what the Muslims do, right?
His announcement came as military officials in Mindanao announced Friday that four more Abu Sayyaf members had been captured including Nasser Hapilon, brother of the group's second-in-command, Isnilon Hapilon. Ermita said two other suspects had escaped in the Manila raids but stressed that intelligence agencies were continuing to hunt them down. "One important revelation is that the 'return-to-Islam' Filipinos, who were (former) Christians ... their converts, have been trained (in Mindanao) to handle explosives," Ermita said. He said these converts were chosen because "they will not be easily suspected to be terrorists", adding that the two who escaped were also members of the movement. The wife of one of the six suspected Abu Sayyaf members had said they were Muslim converts but denied they were involved in terrorism. She accused security forces of torturing her husband into confessing, a claim denied by Ermita.
Posted by: Dan Darling ||
04/02/2004 8:47:51 AM ||
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Four Arabic teachers from Turkey have been arrested in Cotabato City for alleged ties with the Jemaah Islamiyah (JI) regional terror network, officials said Thursday. A highly classified military report also warned members of the Regional Disaster Coordinating Council in Koronadal City of the JI plan to bomb key cities in central Mindanao.
The Bureau of Immigration (B.I.) said Thursday that it has arrested in Cotabato City four Arabic teachers from Turkey on suspicion of having ties with the Jema'ah Islamiah (JI) regional terror network. The Turks, identified by their employer as Istanbul natives Ismael Kocabiyik, Alpaslan Gul, Ahmed Kaya, and Mansour Omercikoglu, were detained by Immigration Bureau agents late Wednesday in this southern city, Cotabato Mayor Muslimin Sema told AFP. Earlier, one of their wives told police that men in uniform claiming they were immigration agents abducted them. The four, aged between 29 and 34, are Arabic instructors at the Eeman Institute, a private school owned by a Cotabato-based government official, Zamzamin Ampatuan. Ampatuan, the executive director of President Arroyo's Office of Muslim Affairs, said immigration agents showed up at the school with arrest warrants authorizing the detention of the four for "alleged links with the JI."
Ampatuan rejected the charge. "That is not true. These people are peace-loving educators who have been helping us run our educational institute," he said. A spokesman for the Turkish embassy in Manila said he had no details of the arrests except what he had heard from media reports. He said the government had not contacted the embassy. Ampatuan said all four board at his house with their Filipino wives.
Gee. Golly. You don't think Mr. Minister of Muslim Affairs is involved, do ya?
In Koronadal City, Lt. Col. Franklin del Prado, 6th Infantry Division assistant chief of staff, confirmed that JI operatives are in central Mindanao and are waiting for the right time to strike at public places in the region. "JI operatives are planning to conduct bombings and sabotage [operations] in the cities of General Santos and Koronadal, like public markets, bus terminals and churches," del Prado said, reading from a folder boldly marked "Secret." Del Prado's revelation shrouded the conference room in silence, where some 50 people gathered for the first joint meeting of the Regional Disaster Coordinating Council-Central Mindanao and Provincial Disaster Coordinating Council of South Cotabato province. The military official said the JI operatives already in Mindanao have made Cotabato City their base of operation, with a certain Zulkipli allegedly calling the shots from there. Del Prado stressed that the JI is "just lying low for quite sometime"; apparently owing to the arrest of Taufik Refqui, who was arrested last Oct. 3 in Cotabato City. Refqui, an Indonesian who was arrested by the Police Anti-Crime Emergency Response team, had earlier claimed that JI recruits are training within areas controlled by the Moro rebels.
Authorities tagged Refqui as the second ranking JI leader in the Philippines, next to slain terrorist Fathur Rohman Al-Ghozi, who was killed last October in Pigkawayan, North Cotabato, reportedly after shooting it out with law enforcers. Del Prado said the operation of JI agents in the area was also hampered by the arrest of an alleged financier, a certain Jaybe Ofracio, last January in Belfast, Northern Ireland. Ofracio was arrested on charges that he has been laundering funds for the JI operating in Northern Ireland. Reports said the Irish police have been closely monitoring Ofracio's activities in Northern Ireland for the past two years before his arrest. Del Prado alleged that evidences seized from the house of Ofracio's wife in Cotabato City pointed to the suspect's apparent link with the JI. In spite of their "hibernation," the JI elements, del Prado told the RDCC participants, remain a vital threat to the stability of the region, based on information gathered lately by the military intelligence community.
The military official also repeated previous government pronouncements that the MILF, the largest Moro rebel group in Southern Philippines, is allegedly giving protection to the JI operatives in Mindanao. He said JI elements trained in Camp Abubakar, then the largest camp of the MILF, before it fell on the hands of the government in the 2000 all-out-war ordered by the deposed President Estrada. In another report, the General Santos City Police Office (GSCPO) bomb disposal unit on Thursday said the suspicious package found at the General Santos public market Wednesday morning did not contain any explosive component. Children alerted the police Wednesday after they found the package abandoned at the parking lot of the west side section of the public market. The GSCPO bomb disposal unit immediately went to the area to check the reported suspicious object. Police initially found batteries, plastic materials tied with electrical tape, and a powder substance inside a plastic bag. Senior Insp. Jomar Yap, city police bomb disposal unit chief, earlier said they would subject the "object" to a test to determine if it contains explosive materials, which later turned out negative. Yap said while the incident was a false alarm, they still considered it as a bomb threat, but did not say which group is responsible for it.
Posted by: Dan Darling ||
04/02/2004 1:28:46 AM ||
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Jemaah Islamiah (JI) terrorists responsible for the 2002 Bali bombings and other deadly attacks in South-east Asia were operating under a fatwa, or religious edict, which they believed came from Osama bin Laden, an alleged member of the group said. Hambali, an Indonesian cleric believed to be a top Al-Qaeda operative, distributed the fatwa to JI members before the group launched attacks in Indonesia, Mohamed Nasir Abbas told Malaysia's TV3 network in comments aired yesterday. 'People who believed in the fatwa carried out bombings,' Nasir said. 'People like Hambali and Mukhlas carried out bombings which they believed were in accordance with the fatwa.' Nasir's comments appear to strengthen suspicions of links between Al-Qaeda and JI, which was formed in the mid-1990s with the goal of turning much of South-east Asia into an Islamic superstate.
You don't really have to look much further than the Pakistan and Soddy Arabia links to come to that conclusion...
TV3 recently interviewed four Malaysian JI members in Indonesian custody, who now say they renounce the group because it killed Muslims. 'In the end we all saw the result of the bombings they carried out in churches, in Bali and on the Marriott hotel,' Nasir said. 'Those who died were innocent civilians who did not know anything, and Muslims themselves.'
The killing's the important part, not who gets killed...
Nasir, who was arrested last April near Jakarta, is accused of heading a JI cell in Sabah and of smuggling explosives and weapons from the Philippines to Indonesia. Another militant interviewed by TV3, Amran Mansor, claimed he was a JI logistics chief.
Posted by: Dan Darling ||
04/02/2004 1:06:26 AM ||
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Targets Inside Cities
Targets inside the cities are considered a sort of military diplomacy. Normally, this kind of diplomacy is written with blood and decorated with body parts and the smell of guns. It carries a political meaning that relates to the nature of the faithâs struggle. The intent is to send messages to different directions. Therefore, it is very important to choose accurate targets (similar to Al-Qaeda explosions). One of the good examples is what four heroic brothers did with their successful choice of target. (Khaled Al-Saeed, Riyadh Al-Hajeri, Abdul Aziz Al-Muthem, Moslih Al-Shamrani). God bless their souls.
Faith Targets
At the beginning of any Jihad military operation, it is not advisable to target religious places unless it is used for:
Missionaries in Islamic countries, where they try to convert Moslems to Christians such as what happened in Yemen and as what is going on in Iraq as well as well as what was going on in the land of the two Holy Mosques (Saudi Arabia) where they were distributing bibles to homes. In this case hunting those people is good and we know who they are.
Covert intelligence operations. Any Moslem religious scholar who cooperates with the enemy. Targeting those is glorified and makes them as symbols for Godâs anger.
Reverends, priests, rabbis and any religious personality that attack Islam or Moslems such as an American reverend that cursed the prophet, we hope to God that we will get his neck. Also as what Mr. Sayed Nosair did when he killed Rabbi Kahana who cursed the prophet.
Any (Jewish or Christian) personality that provides financial, military, or moral support against Moslems as with what happened with the crusades in the past.
Economic Targets
The purpose of these targets is to destabilize the situation and not allow the economic recovery such as hitting oil wells and pipelines that will scare foreign companies from working there and stealing Moslem treasures. Another purpose is to have foreign investment withdrawn from local markets. Some of the benefits of those operations are the effect it has on the economic powers like the one that had happened recently in Madrid where the whole European economy was affected. Such attacks have dual economic effects on the crusaders, Jewish and renegade Islamic countries. These are practical examples:
1. Targeting of Jewish and crusaderâs investments in the Moslem lands.
2. Targeting international companies.
3. Targeting international economic consultants and experts.
4. Targeting investments coming from enemy countries using either military methods such as the blowing up of American restaurants (franchises) or using political means such as boycotts.
5. Targeting stolen natural resources from the Moslem lands such as the attack on the French oil tanker and Iraqi pipelines. The leadership should decide the selection of such economic targets because it can choose the right time.
6. Assassinating Jewish businessmen and teach lessons to those who cooperate with them, but after you warn them. You only assassinate those who have been proven to deal with them.
Human Targets
We have to target Jews and Christians. We have to let anybody that fights God, his prophet or the believers know that we will be killing them. There should be no limits and no geographical borders. We have to turn the land of the infidels into hell as they have done to the land of the Moslems. Therefore, all the cells all over the world should not look to geographic borders but should try to make the infidel countries theaters of operations and get them busy with that and themselves. They have made the Moslem lands, experiment fields for their weapons and inventions, we must turn their places into hell and destruction and the sons of the Islamic nation are capable of that.
The primary targets should be Jews and Christians who have important status in the Islamic countries. The purpose is not to allow them to settle in the lands of the Moslems. Our advice is to start with unprotected soft targets and the individuals from countries that support the local renegades. For example, In the Holy Land (Saudi Arabia), the primary target should be Americans, then the British. In Iraq, the Americans first, in Afghanistan, the Americans first, and in Algiers, the French and in Indonesia the Australians and so on. The importance of the targets should be as follows:
1. Jews: They are at different levels. American and Israeli Jews first, the British Jews and then French Jews and so on.
2. Christians:
Their importance is as follows:
Americans
British
Spanish
Australians
Canadians
Italians
The Purpose for Human Targets
To stress the struggle of the faiths. Targeting Jews and Christians is a proof that it is a religious struggle. To show who the main enemy is. To get rid of the renegades and to purify the land and to use them as examples for others. To spread fear in enemy lines. This is a requirement from God as a Holy Koran says, âVerse from the Koranâ. To lift the morale of the Islamic nation. To destroy the image and stature of the targeted government. Americaâs nose was smeared in the soil after the attacks on New York and Washington. To obstruct political projects for the infidels and the renegades. Italy decided not to send soldiers to Iraq after exploding Italians in Baghdad as well as the promise made by opponents of the Spanish Prime Minister to withdraw Spanish troops from Iraq because of the Madrid explosions. Punishment for killing Moslems. God says, âPunish them in the same way they punished you.â
Posted by: Dan Darling ||
04/02/2004 1:15:16 AM ||
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#1
Does anyone now doubt that this sick culture of death spawned by a defective religion called "Islam" has declared a holy war on western civilization?
Does anyone now doubt that their only goal is annhiliation and subjugation of anyone that is not subservient to their ideology?
The last time we faced a threat this ideaologically dirven and rabidly ethnic, it was called National Socialism, and had its charismatic leader, Hitler.
We need a similar effort and similar results.
Fundamentalist Islam must be hunted down, uprooted and destroyed.
And we should start with its paymasters and financiers, the Saudis and their support for the Wahabbis, and then the so-called clerics who spout the racist hate-inciting garbage.
For the former, we have to stabilize Iraq and use it as a platform for forcing democracy and open society into Saudi Arabia and replace the sick and broken government they have there.
For the latter, a systematic and complete campaign of assasaination needs to be done. You incite, then within a month, you die. 50 cal lobotomy. Not jus the big name Imams, but all the little local guys who give the big names their power by aggregating fools who believe Wahabbi trash talk, and sporead the word of the hate filled Imams.
Had we a chance to take out Hitler, Himmler, Heydrich, Goebbels, like this before hand, there would not have been so many millions dead in death camps.
People like the author of the document above must be killed, and so should anyone spreading their word as true believers.
Here is our chance to avoid a world-wide religious based bloodbath by killing the cancer before it grows too large.
If we do not kill the wahabbi and radical Islamist leaders now, then in a few decades, we will be forced to kill millions when the conflict is larger and they obtain nuclear weapons and strike us with them. And have no doubt - they see nuclear obliteration of our civilization as a justified and proper act. The time to stop them is now, while the cost is low.
#2
Reading stuff like this makes me rather nervous. I'm with you, OS, all the way.
Wee have to turn the land of the infidels into hell as they have done to the land of the Moslems
They did this to themselves, by retreating into a shell and blaming it on the outside world. And now they're looking to punish the outside world for the consequences of their own actions. Why is it that so few people realize the extent of this threat?
Posted by: The Doctor ||
04/02/2004 11:04 Comments ||
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Can someonme tell me where dan darling got the full text of the memo?
#4
Certainly gives one pause. More like a "wake up" shock (especially if one also considers the post on the nuclear angle--It's a dirty job). Are there any libs out there, who, after reading this, still think these people can be "reasoned with," "appeased," or even "reformed?" If only this could be mailed out to every household in the above-mentioned countries. The Islamotwerps are 100% committed. Looks like we better be. (Historically speaking, didn't they used to worship "Ammolech"--the god of war--before the name "Allah" was used as a replacement?)
OldSpook: How come the Germans and the Russians weren't mentioned as targets? What about Asia? Any ideas?
The Doctor: We have to turn the land of the infidels into hell as they have done to the land of the Moslems. They did this to themselves, by retreating into a shell and blaming it on the outside world. So right. They do that with everything. It's a culture of blaming others and legitimizing hate. Just look at the front page of the NYT today. There's a photo of a protest in Iraq. You can't tell me someone isn't blaming someone for something! The women of Afghanistan are so tired of it that they're setting themselves on fire.
Anonymous4020: the article is on MSNBC (click on title, above) but it is only excerpted there too, and copied onto this page.
Al-Qaida attacks around the world have increased dramatically over the past few months. Now NBC News has obtained new evidence of what al-Qaida is thinking, in the form of what appears to be a planning memo written by an al-Qaida militant that specifies which Americans and others to target in Iraq and worldwide.
Amid the deadliest string of terror attacks worldwide since 9/11, what appears to be a new al-Qaida message obtained by NBC News lays out in chilling detail a priority list of human targets for terrorists. Titled âTargets Inside Cities,â the lengthy document extols what it calls âmilitary diplomacy ... written with blood and decorated with body partsâ and lists preferred targets in the following order of importance:
âThis document is a playlist, if you will, of the future attacks we can expect to see from al-Qaida,â said terrorism expert Ben Venzke of IntelCenter. The message is signed by Abdulaziz Al-Mukrin, leader of al-Qaida in Saudi Arabia, and appears in an Internet magazine well known to al-Qaida operatives and militants. The document seems to suggest going after not just economic and religious targets, but individuals â bankers, businessmen, diplomats, rabbis, missionaries, tourists, even Muslim scholars who âcooperate with the enemy.â It also tells terrorist cells worldwide âto turn the land of the infidels into hell" and provides detailed instructions on how to use âdead dropsâ to avoid face-to-face contact that might help police connect various cells. According to former National Security Council counterterrorism official Steven Simon, âIt shows how vigorous the jihad [holy war] is, and it shows that thereâs an appetite for this kind of guidance on the part of would-be jihadists.â
Whatâs more, the document boasts about previous violence works, noting that the Madrid bombings, which killed 191 last month, toppled the Spanish government and led to a decision to remove all Spanish troops from Iraq. âAl-Qaida learned that it was able to carry out an operation that would have an immediate political impact and change the position of a country,â Venzke said. Again and again, the message preaches that beyond eliminating immediate targets, these attacks achieve dual goals: âspreading fear in enemy lines ... and lifting the morale of the Islamic nation.â
Posted by: Dan Darling ||
04/02/2004 1:12:06 AM ||
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#2
Canada? The jihadists' home away from home? Say it ain't so! And after all Canada has done for them!
the document boasts about previous violence works, noting that the Madrid bombings, which killed 191 last month, toppled the Spanish government and led to a decision to remove all Spanish troops from Iraq
Saw that one coming. If I weren't such a nice person, I'd say "I told you so" to Spain. But I won't.
Aw, hell, why not? Tolja!
Posted by: Barbara Skolaut ||
04/02/2004 2:17 Comments ||
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I wonder if the day will come when its declared 'open season' so to speak? It's pretty evident to me if those yoyos hit the US again the formerly peaceful gentry may take action that will not only shake the bad guys but our own gov as well. We're dealing with some serious shit here folks. Chine
A new cadre of untested Islamic militants is emerging to take the place of leaders in Osama bin Laden's al Qaeda network, which is now under "catastrophic stress" as a result of international operations over the past 30 months, the senior State Department counterterrorism official told a House International Relations subcommittee yesterday. At least 70 percent of al Qaeda's senior leadership has been detained or killed since the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks triggered a worldwide offensive against the network, and the remaining 30 percent is largely on the run, State Department counterterrorism coordinator J. Cofer Black testified. The movement has been "deeply wounded" by the elimination or arrest of more than 3,400 lower-level members and allies, forcing it "to evolve in ways not entirely by its own choosing," he said.
As a result, several newer and smaller groups, made up predominantly of Sunni Muslims, are moving in to take the lead in the jihadist holy war agenda against the United States and its allies, which has complicated the task of stamping out the threat from Islamic militants, said Black, a former CIA counterterrorism official. "As al Qaeda's known senior leadership, planners, facilitators and operators are brought to justice, a new cadre of leaders is being forced to step up. These individuals are increasingly no longer drawn from the old guard, no longer the seasoned veteran al Qaeda trainers from Afghanistan's camps or close associates of al Qaeda's founding members," Black told the House subcommittee. "These relatively untested terrorists are assuming far greater responsibilities."
In another ominous sign, Black said, al Qaeda's ideology and its virulent anti-U.S. rhetoric are also spreading well beyond traditional strongholds, inspiring scores of Muslim groups. They include Ansar al-Islam in Iraq, the network of cells created by Jordanian Abu Musab Zarqawi, the Islamic Movement of Uzbekistan, the Salafist Group for Call and Combat in North Africa, and the Salifia Jihadia in Morocco, which claimed credit for the 2003 bombings in Casablanca.
Ummm... Ansar and Zarqawi are one and the same, and Ansar was an al-Qaeda creature from the first. IMU was allied with al-Qaeda in Afghanistan and was severely bruised at the siege of Konduz. GSPC has been active in Algeria all this while, since prior to 9-11-01, and has now openly joined al-Qaeda. Salafi Jihad's the only real "derivative" from al-Qaeda, and that might just mean we don't know anything about its founding off the tops of our heads. We're looking at allied groups that have been in place for years, and that have been allied for years.
"Identifying and acting against the leadership, capabilities and operational plans of these groups poses a serious challenge now and for years to come," Black said.
Because we've hit a large organization and broken it into its component parts, each of which has its own vitality.
Beyond the groups is the further problem represented by thousands of militants -- from conflicts such as Chechnya, Kashmir and Kosovo -- who migrate to other conflicts, Black told the subcommittee. The jihadists are a "ready source of recruits" for al Qaeda and its affiliates. And Iraq is a "focal point" for jihadists who are linking up with Sunnis opposed to the occupation.
Iraq's a life or death situation for jihadism, just as it's a life or death situation for the U.S.A.
But crackdowns by the United States and others have had extensive impact on the al Qaeda network, disrupting the leadership, hampering coordination, isolating cells and eliminating potential sanctuaries or training bases, including facilities in Afghanistan where they were working on chemical and biological weapons programs, he said. As a result, he said, al Qaeda and its allies have been forced to delay operations and have made mistakes, such as the 2003 attack in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia, at a housing complex for foreigners who turned out to be mainly Muslims. "The decision making process, the ability to process operational activity is increasingly difficult for them," Black said. "It is a challenge for them to conduct this type of [major] attack."
Al-Qaeda is a stateless army that has tactical skills and an ultimate objective, but no discernible strategy to achieve the objective. Either that, or their strategy is so subtle that everybody misses it.
Posted by: Dan Darling ||
04/02/2004 1:02:28 AM ||
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#1
crackdowns by the United States and others have had extensive impact on the al Qaeda network, disrupting the leadership, hampering coordination, isolating cells and eliminating potential sanctuaries or training bases
Of course, this will be the lead story on the evening news on all the networks, right?
Right?
*crickets chirping*
That's what I thought.
Posted by: Barbara Skolaut ||
04/02/2004 1:23 Comments ||
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An influential Shiite cleric in Najaf, Iraq, announced his support Friday for two of Israelâs biggest enemies -- the Palestinian militant group Hamas and Lebanon-based Hezbollah. "They can consider me their striking hand in Iraq whenever there is a necessity and whenever there is a need," Moqtada al-Sadr said in a sermon at Al Kufa mosque. OK, fair enough. Would you like a wheelchair Mr. Sadr? Oneâs recently been vacated.
... The streets leading up to the center were packed with people shouting: "Long live Sadr," "America and the Governing Council are infidels," and "Allow us to fight America." Did someone say, "bring it on"??
The cleric has been increasingly outspoken since Hamas founder Ahmed Yassin was killed by Israel last month. I think it started long before Yassin met his virgins.
... Al-Sadr said that even though Yassin "has killed a large number of people this does not justify the way he was brutally murdered." I donât think Yassin minds. Heâs with his virgins. What could be better.
... Al-Sadr condemned the United States and its presence in Iraq, asserting that "America does not want peace in Iraq or any place else." "Let all be fully aware that those war lovers, the Americans, have brought with them no good over the past year where there have been many problems and events. Only God can end this." Careful that God doesnât send you a JDAM care package straight from heaven, Mr. Sadr.
Posted by: Rafael ||
04/02/2004 9:20:45 PM ||
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Hey, I just posted about this!
Posted by: Edward Yee ||
04/02/2004 22:44 Comments ||
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Geez, How many times to I have to call for the killing of this F**k before Bremmer gets the message?
#3
Al-Sadr has been exploring the envelope of performance since the end of the war. But like jet aircraft performance envelope charts, he better watch out or he may end up in "coffin corner." /analogy
Posted by: Alaska Paul ||
04/02/2004 22:56 Comments ||
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This reminds me of the Jason films where some skimpily clad bimbette, after 10 other morons have been sliced to ribbons, blithely decides to walk into a darkened room. You're sitting there thinking, "No! Don't go in there! You idiot! At least turn the phreakin' light on! The killer's prolly in there!" *slash* *scream* *fade to red*
A Shia militia group loyal to radical cleric Muqtada Sadr has wiped out a village in central Iraq which refused to adhere to its puritanical creed, killing some inhabitants and forcing the rest to flee.
Hundreds of militiamen from the Mahdiâs Army group besieged the town of Kawlia, 10km south of the city of Diwaniya, with mortars and smashed walls with sledgehammers three weeks ago, reducing to rubble the entire village famed for its dancers and prostitutes since the 1920s.
On Friday scavengers scoured the ruins, loading bricks from houses, a school and a mosque into pickup trucks to sell to local builders. Sayid Yahya Shubari, the 30-year-old local clerical commander of the Mahdiâs Army in Diwaniya, said his militia raided the village after receiving reports that pimps had kidnapped a 12-year-old girl.
"It was a well of debauchery, drunkenness and mafia, and they were buying and selling girls," he said. He said Kawlia was flattened after the villagers shot an emissary he had sent to negotiate with them.
Hassan Ali, a director at Diwaniyaâs civil defence department, said at least four people were killed and 15 wounded during six hours of night-time shelling. He said the attack was quelled after Spanish and Iraqi forces intervened.
The townâs destruction has raised fears that the militia, which operates under the command of Mr Sadr, and is active in Baghdad and eight southern provinces, is not just operating above the law, but defining it. Mr Shubari says his Diwaniya office operates its own Sharia (Islamic law) courts, and uses its Sharia police to apply Islamic punishments.
Militiamen say their Diwaniya brigade alone has between 800 and 1,000 men under arms. Diwaniya residents speak of a reign of terror, and say masked militiamen with Kalashnikovs are staging processions.
Hamid Alwanâs back is still black with the marks of 80 lashes struck by a cleric for smelling of gin.
Mr Shubari confirmed that his office was punishing people who drank alcohol with 80 lashes.
The Spanish-led multinational force, assigned to provide security in the area, says it has made one raid on the Sharia court, after receiving orders from its military command, but is reluctant to intervene. "The problem is not the Mahdiâs Army, the problem is the terrorists. Itâs the terrorists who make dangers for the coalition," says Major Carlos Herradon.
A local police chief says the Army is "a good force", whose Sharia courts are supreme. Journalists in the city have also been advised to respect "the sensitivity" of the news, and refrain from reporting.
In recent weeks, coalition officials say they have demolished Mr Sadrâs Sharia court run from a basement in the nearby holy city of Najaf, and padlocked the main offices of Mr Sadrâs newspaper in Baghdad. The occupation authorities have also reissued orders to disband the Mahdiâs Army and other militias.
But analysts fear the measures will serve to provoke Shia grassroots activists into open confrontation with the occupation authorities that the coalition has so far managed to avoid. "We prefer to die rather than see the Mahdiâs Army dissolved," says Mr Shubari. "Either martyrdom or victory, there is no other way." Ahead of a large Shia procession next week, black flags are draped from many Shia shrines in southern Iraq instructing followers to face the sword rather than surrender to an Islamic state.
In Diwaniya, a town where women are all but absent on the streets, many younger residents and some policemen praised the Mahdiâs Army methods. "People would come from all over the south, and even Baghdad to dance with the gypsy girls," said Bassam al-Najafi, a Diwaniya restaurateur. "Women were leaving their husbands to work there. They are cleansing the town."
Maybe itâs not such a good thing having the Spanish in Iraq, and having them leave will not make things worse, if they let this kind of shit take place. We need to whack Sadr and his army, fast. He cannot be allowed to exercise any kind of control outside the regular government, or we lose everything we fought for and hoped to gain in Iraq. Whack him, whack his followers, and make them understand the old-fashioned way that thereâs only one right way to do things, and thatâs the government way, and he/they are not the government.
Posted by: Old Patriot ||
04/02/2004 10:11:52 PM ||
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Maybe we can allow Sadr and his militia into Fallujah to help them protect Fallujah from the infidels. Seems like a good way to flush two turds at once.
I think 1st Marines will put a bigger fight than a bunch of gypsey girls.
"We prefer to die rather than see the Mahdiâs Army dissolved," says Mr Shubari. "Either martyrdom or victory, there is no other way."
#2
For those who would rather die than see the Mahdi's army dissolved, there should be any number of ways for us to help them along. This group should have been disbanded with extreme prejudice within 24 hours of this attack and a few black turbans assisted to Paradise for their 72 raisins. When private armies are permitted, democracy becomes thugocracy.
"We prefer to die rather than see the Mahdiâs Army dissolved," says Mr Shubari. "Either martyrdom or victory, there is no other way."
Hokey-dokey. MOAB or Daisy Cutter?
Posted by: Barbara Skolaut ||
04/02/2004 23:43 Comments ||
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Muqtada Sadr is rapidly outliving his usefulness to the Iraqi nation. This latest action is sufficient cause to apprehend and confine him. This shitstain is nothing but trouble.
One of Liberiaâs most notorious mass murderers warlords returned home after more than a decade in Lagos, the worldâs most corrupt city exile, asking forgiveness Monday for all those atrocities "whatever wrong" he deliberately may have committed. Prince Johnson, a onetime-faction death squad leader turned self-absolved killer evangelist and wanted war criminal political hopeful, is best known for the 1990 kidnapping, torture and killing of Liberiaâs then-president, Samuel Cut-Up-My-Opponents-And-Eat-Them Doe. A much-circulated video recorded Johnson looking on and cheering enthusiastically languidly while his followers carried out Johnsonâs order to slice off Doeâs ear.
The episode was followed by nearly 15 years of bloodletting, as Johnson and other rivals slaughtered 1,000s of civilians battled for power. Major fighting ended in August when one of Johnsonâs leading opponents, embezzler and jailbird warlord-president Charles Taylor, fled into exile in Nigeria. Johnson, who says he conveniently became a Christian evangelist during his squalid skulking exile in Nigeria, returned late Sunday. He made no public reference to recent statements that he planned to seeking absolute dictatorship the presidency or a parliament seat. "I have asked all Liberians to forgive me for whatever atrocities wrong I gleefully may have committed; and I equally stand ready to torture and execute forgive all those who have given me so much as a parking ticket offended me," Johnson said in downtown Monrovia Monday.
He insisted he was the chief architect not "exclusively responsible" for the toppling of Doeâs government, and insisted Doe took his own life after prolonged period of torture, disfigurement and genital mutilation. "Doe choked on my gun barrel committed suicide in custody, we loudly celebrated regret the incident, it was not our intention to kill Doe so quickly; it was never our intention to foreshorten his extended torture session, so we spit and dance on his grave apologize for nothing that," Johnson said. He said he was ready to laugh at face a war crimes court, if they could somehow physically apprehend him it came to that. Taylor has been indicted by a laughably ineffectual U.N.-backed tennis war crimes court in neighboring Sierra Leone, accused of depopulating backing rebels in that country in a vicious 10-year genocide insurgency.
Johnson also said he would love to slowly dismember talk to Taylor in Nigeria. "But (Taylor) being an much admired indicted criminal wanted by the war crimes tribunals who should be seeking me as well and I being his former boy toy archrival, it is not very easy to eviscerate have access to Taylorâs genitals (telephone) number," he said. The worldâs largest nerf gun armed U.N. force is bar hopping building up in Liberia to help the country conduct ballot box stuffing elections within the next two years. When you are severing body parts from from a living human being, it exhibits an extremely callous disregard for their well being. To then claim that "it was not our intention to kill Doe" is pure rubbish.
I donât care if this rotter has talked to the Almighty Himself, Johnsonâs conversion means absolutely nothing in the face of his criminal conduct. These self styled warlords are quite simply drowning Africa in a deluge of blood. Subsequent to conviction, all such conduct should be met with a resounding reply: immediate execution. Johnson says "he was ready to face a war crimes court" I say let him, and keep the maggot locked up meanwhile.
Africa is being reduced to a charnel house by these madmen. Each of them must be discredited, tried and removed from society at large. The forms of ultra-violence they advocate have lingering downstream effects that will persist for decades. The African AIDS epidemic is bad enough as it is. To voluntarily complicate this by leaving thousands of amputee children and adults in the wake of their massacres only redoubles their crimes against humanity. Such socio-ecomonic burdens will continue to cripple their respective regions interminably.
The repercussions of having recruited thousands of child soldiers will return as a ghastly specter with generations more of these same vicious little thugs seeking power. These warlords are breeding up crop upon crop of conscienceless killers who will inflict themselves upon the African nations in their own due time. Who shall pay the price for all this monstrosity?
Their rampaging gangs indulge in mass rape, cannibalism, spawning ecological disasters and outright genocide. The warlords are nothing but two-bit Hitlers without the material means to achieve their true goals. Until Africa is freed of these bloodthirsty parasites there is little hope for any peace.
This oneâs a bit long, but worth the read. This guyâs no Krauthammer, but I think youâll be able to really get the feel of whatâs going on in Iraq from the inside. The letter was actually printed in the New york Post about a week and half ago.
I tried to post this before, and may have entered it incorrectly as just a headline. If so, please forgive my inadverdant double-post. Also, please forgive the length. It turns out that this letter was longer and already cut down to size by the Postâs editor. As such, leaving out any of the paragraphs make it seem disjointed
March 19, 2004 -- On a cloudless day in January, my entry to Baghdad on a C-130 was marked by a fuselage-shuddering, steep descent from high altitude to the tarmac at Baghdad International Airport - or BIAP, as we say here. It has to be that way, every time, for the safest, quickest way to the ground.
This is a dangerous place. I am United States Marine - so I know I am in the right place.
You know, its one thing having an airportâs name go from Idlewild to John F. Kennedy. But on my watch here as a U.S. Marine, I will be damned if I allow this airport ever to change back to Saddam International Airport. Let that be a symbol of the fact that there will be no rollback. We will not falter or leave before the job is done.
That job, in simple terms - to a dumb Marine like me - is to achieve a great and important thing here in Iraq.
We are doing this as part of a world team called the Coalition, with the Iraqi people who will very shortly be the teamâs owners and managers. When the Iraqis take over, the Coalition will become a coach for a long while - and then we step off and leave it all to them.
The liberal press chooses to miss that this is not solely a U.S. effort, but a Coalition effort. While we are the star players, you canât win a game with just the star players. We have a great team here, and we will succeed - despite the efforts of an evil, cowardly and extremist resistance.
The fight goes on here, and it goes very well. But the going can be slow. The Iraqi people - who are counting on our assistance - are fervently trying to rebuild under constant threat from the few, but deadly, international malcontents and disaffected insurgents.
Essentially, these insurgents are anachronisms in a country that will no longer be hospitable to their vile, cowardly kind. They just donât know it yet.
They say we are coming up on a one-year anniversary for our presence here in Iraq. As a Marine and a New Yorker, I disagree. This is really a 14-year anniversary. I enlisted in the Marines in 1990, giving up a safe, normal life - I was going to be a New York City school teacher - to be a part of righting the wrong that Saddam Hussein committed.
I left active duty service after my ninth year in the Marines. Then the call came on 9/11. I volunteered and was out of the U.S. for Operation Enduring Freedom in less than two weeks.
Now, here I am at Camp Victory in Iraq, supporting the First Marine Expeditionary Force and all of the Coalition in a job that I really canât discuss here - but it is the most important I have ever done.
The Marines have just arrived and are holding down the entire Western Sector of Iraq. The Marines have their hands full - but nobody is more capable and up to the job.
The Western Sector in the Al-Anbar province is the largest, most dangerous and most diverse region of the country. Here, the Marines must balance duplicitous Syria and Iran to the North and West with highly volatile cities such as Fallujah and Ar-Ramadi closer to Baghdad. We havenât been here long on this second trip to Iraq, but I can tell you we are doing spectacularly.
I want New Yorkers to know that the Marines have our part of the situation well in hand. We have never been better trained with better experience. We are at our finest at the right time - as usual. We all know the mission - from lance corporal to general.
This place and what we are doing here is more closely linked to terrorism - and American and world security - than I will ever be allowed to discuss. We wouldnât be out here giving it everything we have if it werenât important.
Not a day goes by out here that I donât think of the cops, firefighters and regular New Yorkers who died on 9/11.
As New Yorkers and as Americans, please stand behind our leaders - and us here.
We can do any job on earth and have already accomplished more in Iraq than we had any right to expect.
By the way, Marines are pretty easy to thank when we come home and you see us: Buy us a couple of beers, and weâll call it warmly appreciated.
#1
There's a cold on waiting for you Captain and all of you guys when you get back! God Bless you all and thank you for your fortitude and courage. You make this one veteran a very proud American!
Posted by: Bill Nelson ||
04/02/2004 17:07 Comments ||
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Three men trying to plant a bomb outside local government offices in northern Iraq were killed when it exploded prematurely, the mayor of Hawija and police said on Friday. Subhan Khalaf Ali, said the bomb exploded early on Friday morning in nearby Riyadh, which is part of his constituency and 50 km (30 miles) south west of Kirkuk. He said the attackers identities had not been confirmed.
"We are still collecting body parts, then we'll try to assemble them into something that can be identified. Could take awhile."
In a separate incident, police in Hawija said U.S. soldiers opened fire on a group of men trying to rob the technical institute in the town on Thursday night. One of the thieves was killed and one wounded, they said. There was no immediate comment from the U.S. military.
Posted by: Steve ||
04/02/2004 10:02:35 AM ||
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News reports are now saying it was one suicide boomer and he took two people with him. Developing.
Posted by: Steve ||
04/02/2004 10:40 Comments ||
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A "work accident" of this type--- so neat (metaphorically speaking), so effecient, satisfactory and just. Saves everyone's time, all the way around.
#3
al-Bawaba sez it was Red Wire Syndrome: Elsewhere, three persons were killed when a bomb they were planting went off prematurely in northern Iraq on Friday, police said. The three men were planting the bomb at the entrance to a town hall in Riyadh, some 25 kilometers west of Kirkuk when it exploded, killing them instantly, police Col. Iyad al-Jabouri said.
Posted by: Steve ||
04/02/2004 13:19 Comments ||
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A "considerable" number of Nigerian military officers have been arrested following "serious breaches of security," officials say. Presidential spokeswoman Remi Oyo told the BBC that the investigation follow rumours of a coup plot.
It's Africa, of course there's a coup plot.
Nigeria has frequently been ruled by the military, but returned to civilian rule in 1999 with the election of President Olusegun Obasanjo. But Ms Oyo said there was "no danger whatsoever; this president is firmly in charge."
"Let me check, yup, no tanks outside. He's still in charge."
She confirmed that the former head of security for the late military ruler, Sani Abacha, Hamza al-Mustapha, is involved in the incident. Mr al-Mustapha was seized from prison by police earlier this week and handed to military intelligence.
So the intel guys did snatch him from prison yesterday.
During Abacha's rule, Mr al-Mustapha was considered Nigeria's second most powerful official. In 1998, he was charged in 1998 with ordering the murder of Kudirat Abiola, the wife of opposition politician Chief Moshood Abiola.
The BBC's Mannir Dan-Ali in Abuja says military officials want to question him over his involvement in the alleged coup plot. The Nigerian Prisons Service said on Thursday that Mr al-Mustapha had been released to agents of the Directorate of Military Intelligence for questioning on "matters of national security," reports AFP news agency.
Hummm, yesterday the BBC said that he had been snatched from jail after a gunbattle and a judge was looking for him. Well, it is the BBC after all.
"This coup allegation is just a ploy to keep him behind bars, " Mr al-Mustapha's brother Hadi told AFP news agency at the family home in the northern city of Kano.
Planning a coup from your jail cell is a old and well respected custom.
Posted by: Steve ||
04/02/2004 9:12:06 AM ||
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Terror suspects arrested in Jordan this week are linked to Al-Qaeda and were planning to carry out an attack under orders from Jordanian Mussab al-Zarqawi, an alleged leader of the network in Iraq believed responsible for attacks there, the press reported Friday. Without giving a source, the official daily Al-Rai said the people arrested "belong to Al-Qaeda," and that the "group was trying to carry out an attack under orders of Fadel Nazzal al-Khalayleh," which is Zarqawi's real name. Jordanian government spokeswoman Asma Khodr declined to confirm or deny the report, but said a "detailed statement will be issued on this affair. "To disclose information at this stage could hurt the investigation," she explained.
On Thursday, officials said police were hunting for two cars laden with explosives driven in from Syria after the arrest of several suspects, with one senior official saying several "terrorists" were still on the run. Security was stepped up across Amman, particularly around hotels, government ministries, the prime minister's office, state radio and television building and the US embassy. Police also set up checkpoints to stop and check cars, and Khodr said "all possible security measures" had been taken to protect the public. "A number of individuals suspected of links to a terrorist group were arrested on Tuesday and Wednesday, while others are on the run and we are searching for them," she said. Another Jordanian official said one car filled with explosives was already seized during the arrests. Police ran the pictures of Suleiman Darwish, Azmi Jayussi and Mowaffak Odwan in Jordanian newspapers on Thursday appealing for "information that leads to the arrest of the suspects" and offering a ""financial reward". An official said the trio had ties with a group arrested by authorities last year.
Posted by: Dan Darling ||
04/02/2004 8:45:35 AM ||
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Debka was saying 2 truck bombs originating from syria. One stopped, the other on the loose!
Yassinâs death opens door to Iran control
Within a week of Yassinâs death, Hamas already has been wracked over who will lead the organization and where will the money come from. The feud within the normally united organization pits Yassinâs chief aide, Abdul Aziz Rantissi, against Khaled Mashaal. Both claim leadership within the organization and both are seeking outside support.
You don't suppose that was one (of multiple) objectives in bumping off Sheikh Yassin, do you?
Mashaâal and Rantisi are virulently anti-American. The latter has declared President Bush to be the enemy of Hamas and Islam. The fiery and threatening rhetoric could signal Rantisiâs assessment that his future and the organizationâs funding source lies with Iran. "We knew that Bush is the enemy of God, the enemy of Islam and Muslims," Rantisi told thousands of Hamas supporters Sunday in Gaza City. "America declared war against God. Sharon declared war against God and God declared war against America, Bush and Sharon. The war of God continues against them, and I can see the victory coming up from the land of Palestine by the hand of Hamas."
Yassinâs strength was in raising money. In the 1960s, he started his Islamic proselytizing in the Gaza Strip to stem the spread of Western values. He opened a mosque and began receiving money from Saudi Arabia and other Gulf Cooperation Council states.
But natch. That's the way it usually works...
After Israel captured the Gaza Strip in 1967, Yassin continued to work quietly in Gaza mosques. This resulted in accusations from the Palestine Liberation Organization, headed by Yasser Arafat, that Yassin collaborating with Israel. But Yassinâs agenda was long term and in 1982 he was already forming a terrorist infrastructure. Israel arrested Yassin and sentenced him to 13 years. In 1985, Yassin was released in a prisoner exchange with the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine-General Command led by Syrian Army Capt. Ahmed Jibril. By the end of 1987, Hamas had become the leading terrorist group in the Gaza Strip. Hamas organized the first Palestinian uprising and sent tens of thousands of young people to battle Israel during the next five years. In 1994, Yassin faced Arafat who arrived in the Gaza Strip under the accord by Israel and the PLO. Arafat foiled most attempts by Hamas to attack Israel. For his part, Yassin restrained Hamas, saying he didnât want a fight with Arafat.
Now, Yassinâs death is seen as an opportunity for Iran to move into the vacuum. Control over a Sunni Muslim group would be a huge feather in Teheranâs cap and could help target Washingtonâs allies in the Middle East. "The biggest issue of the Islamic world today is the martyrdom of Sheik Ahmed Yassin," said Iranâs Ayatollah Mohammed Imami Kishani, a prominent cleric. Mashaâalâs support comes mainly from Qatar, whose ruling sheiks have provided Hamas with safe haven as well as millions of dollars. Qatar also has lobbied for Mashaâal with Arab countries, the United States and Europe. Rantisi doesnât have such a powerful Arab ally. Indeed, his rhetoric and bloody attacks have alarmed Saudi Arabia, the biggest supporter of Hamas. Rantisi has made enemies in the Palestinian Authority and is regarded as a serious threat to chairman Yasser Arafat.
Arafat has responded subtly by curtailing Hamasâs revenue streams. Arafat has refused to unfreeze 39 bank accounts linked to Hamas in the Gaza Strip. Last week, the Palestinian High Court ordered the unfreezing of the accounts of nine Hamas-aligned charities said to have funded terrorist groups. In August 2003, the PA froze 39 accounts â including those of Al Jamiya Al Islamiya, A-Salah, Islamic Young Womens Association, Social Care Committee, Islamic Charity for Zakat and Al Aqsa Charity Association â under pressure from the United States. Palestinian sources and analysts said the tens of millions of dollars relayed by the Saudi kingdom every year to Hamas stem from the close ties of the royal family to Yassin. Saudi rulers will find it harder to deal with either Rantisi or Mashaâal, they said. And thatâs where Iran comes in.
Posted by: incredulous ||
04/02/2004 12:33:17 AM ||
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Methinks Rent-a-Sissy will be pushing up daisies pretty soon...
Posted by: steve d. ||
04/02/2004 8:43 Comments ||
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Meh! Just one more reason why deposing Iran's government or trashing their nascent nuclear weapons program (whichever comes first) was of higher priority than invading Iraq.
Oh yeah, and drilling Rantisi like an Arabian oil well.
Severly EFL - From Wretchard at Belmontclub. As the man says, read the whole thing.
Directly after four civilian contractors were murdered and mutilated in Fallujah, in the heart of the Sunni triangle, the US military apparently strung a low key but effective cordon around the town. The townsfolk rapidly demanded its lifting. The Iraqi Civil Defense Corps, based in the city, issued this cryptic statement:
"An agreement has been negotiated with the occupation forces to lift the siege of Fallujah and to withdraw. We are hoping you will cooperate to protect Fallujah and guarantee its security," the message said.
The cordon has if anything, been tightened. "U.S. troops, however, remained outside the city Thursday, and commanders said they would act âat the time and place of our choosing.âââ The US military defended its decision not to send troops into Fallujah immediately. Instead, the forces available blocked off the access routes. Fallujah is bounded in the West by a river and four major roads lead in and out of the town.
SNIP
Q of GEN. Kimmitt: Can I just ask one quick follow-up. Just does it not send out a rather dangerous message that these people can get away with this, pretty much do whatever they want? I mean, I was in Fallujah today and people were saying, "Yeah, the Americans were scared to come back in." Does that not send out a bad message of tolerance of violence?
GEN. KIMMITT: Ask them after the Americans have come back in.
If you have any sense at all, Generals that whisper or talk in an steady, even tone should scare the hell out of you. . .
The rest is tactics. The Marines have long studied Military Operations in Urban Terrain (MOUT). They will put snipers in dominant overwatch; use the road network to divide up the town into zones by posting the intersections; they will build EPW cages outside the town; they will put persistent aerial surveillance aloft; there will be a blanket of electronic surveillance and electronic jamming over the town; they will map out the operation to a room-by-room detail. Then they will lop off bits of Fallujah one slice at a time.
SNIP
The deliberate, even cold-blooded approach by the Marines makes this incident the anti-Mogadishu. The tactics employed against the Rangers in the Blackhawk Down incident relied on the belief that Americans could be reflexively trapped into defending unfavorable positions in attempts to recover bodies. The Anti-Coalition Forces probably felt sure that taunting Americans over the media would produce the desired impulsiveness. As the minutes lengthened into hours and the Marines responded with icy professionalism, the enemy may have come the unpleasant realization that this was not the former administration and that other still more unwelcome surprises were in store for them.
The worst time to go hunting tangos is when you are really, really pissed off. Mistakes will be made and you can easily end up in an ambush yourself. While I was/am as mad as anyone after yesterdayâs events, I think the slow methodically approach is the better. I like to think of in terms of a glacier - slow and ponderous but absolutely crushing and no hope of stopping it.
Doc8404 posted this late last night, but it is a MUST READ, so I hope he doesnât mind if I reposted it today.
I think Belmont Clubâs Wretchard has a more perceptive, keener take on the Fallujah cordon than even the mighty Steven Den Beste or the fearsome terrorist-slayer Charles Johnson.
Thatâs what so great about the blogosphere...when we put all our heads together, the sum is greater than the parts separately!
Posted by: Jen ||
04/02/2004 5:06:54 AM ||
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Posted by: Man Bites Dog TROLL ||
04/02/2004 8:25 Comments ||
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Mike, I put it in there, I swear!
Thanks anyway.
Posted by: Jen ||
04/02/2004 8:30 Comments ||
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The Cat has clearly covered it pretty well - and read between the lines to come up with his scenario... I hope he's absolutely right because he has generally described the cordon, section, sweep, cleanse approach. His description of the "situation" in Fallujah (tribal mafia, etc.) I'm sure is correct - that is part & parcel of Arab "society" and politics.
The surprise (for me) is that he believes they will be taking all forms and levels of this "social leadership" into custody as they force Fallujans through the sieve. If true, that will actually be a more powerful message than shooting bad guys.
Everyone there knows these cretins, most either work for them (in effect) or pay some sort of tribute / protection money... so if the CA Mil is a bigger dog than the biggest dog they've ever known, this cements the fact that the capture of Saddam is definitely "real" (of course there are Iraqis who don't believe this -- they watch Al Jizz & Co) and that his minions (their overlords) are also subject to CA authorities - including arrest / detention, it will be a powerful object lesson - at least in their eyes. To us this is obvious - to them it's all just talk until it happens right in front of them. So, if Wretchard's scenario is right, yes, indeed, make it so.
The fallout and repercussions from a one-front war continue. Since muRat's back, I'll greet him appropriately with that fact in mind: Fuck Turkey.
"We are not going to do a pell-mell rush into the city. It will be deliberate, it will be precise and it will be overwhelming. ... We will plan our way through this and we will re-establish control of that city. ... It will be at the time and place of our choosing," he said.
Fallujah residents said Thursday they were ready to take on the Americans if they try to enter the city.
"We wish that they would try to enter Fallujah so we'd let hell break loose," Ahmed al-Dulaimi said. "We will not let any foreigner enter Fallujah," said Sameer Sami. "Yesterday's attack is proof of how much we hate the Americans."
#7
If this whole show in Iraq still has any chance of working the Falluja resistance, be it leftover Baathists, local Sunni extemists, ex-pat Jihadists, or smugglers, has to be cleaned up. This may be an "at all cost" situation.
Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon has given a thinly-veiled warning that Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat could be targeted for assassination. Mr Sharon told Israeli newspapers that both Mr Arafat and the leader of Lebanese militant group Hezbollah should not "feel immune". "Anyone who kills a Jew or harms an Israeli citizen, or sends people to kill Jews, is a marked man," he said. That would fit Arabfishâs MO
The security cabinet decided last year in principle to "remove" Mr Arafat. Remove or REMOVE :)
The security cabinet decision to "remove" Mr Arafat prompted a storm of criticism from the international community. Hey, those JOOSSS canât fight back!!
Mr Sharon later said he had no plans to kill Mr Arafat and he has also acknowledged he has promised the United States not to harm him. But he again referred to Mr Arafat in a series of interviews published on Thursday and Friday to mark the Jewish Passover holiday. "Arafat has no insurance policy... everyone already knows that Arafat is an obstacle to any progress," he told Israelâs Maariv newspaper. Not an obstacle...make him a speed bump for a APC
Mr Sharon has repeatedly accused Mr Arafat of being responsible for the deaths of Israeli civilians in attacks. The Palestinian leader, who has been holed up for two years in his battered Ramallah headquarters, has always denied having supported attacks on Israelis. Oh, those CC-RR-AAA-ZZZ-YYY teenagers nowadays...
Mr Sharon also said his controversial Israeli "disengagement plan" was in Israeli interests. Let Paleos ring their own necks
He said that he would withdraw settlements from all of Gaza but hold onto a military patrol road along the border with Egypt. Four West Bank settlements would also be evacuated. He gave no exact timetable for withdrawal, saying merely that he hoped that by this time next year Israel would be in the midst of disengagement. "We need to leave Gaza and not be responsible for what happens there anymore," he told Maariv. As I said...
"I suggest you take me seriously. I have the power to do this." Mr Sharon also talked about his legal situation, dismissing speculation over his possible indictment in a corruption scandal. "My hands are clean. I believe in my full and complete innocence, and believe there wonât be an indictment," Mr Sharon told Haaretz newspaper. Mr Sharon is due to hold talks with US President George W Bush in Washington on 14 April on the Gaza pull-out plan. In May his party, Likud, will hold a referendum among party members on the issue. For sure, Arabfish is a dead turd walking...
Posted by: steve d. ||
04/02/2004 7:12:29 AM ||
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"The Palestinian leader, who has been holed up for two years in his battered Ramallah headquarters, has always denied having supported attacks on Israelis."
--------------------
Arafat's not afraid of anyone and he's not been "holed up for two years" in the Muqata. He just really, really likes his current abode and its spartan interior decor.
Well, that and his dreadfully annoying allergy to Hellfire missiles.
Posted by: Barry ||
04/02/2004 15:33 Comments ||
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#3
Curious how the EU has yet to pull their thumb out about Iran's nascent covert nuclear weapons program. You'd think they'd feel just a little more threatened by the possibility of Islamist goons toting a nuke up to the continent, than an irreconcilably murderous terrorist thug like Yassin getting his free Hellfire enema.
Hundreds of Palestinians have barricaded themselves into a Jerusalem holy site after an Israeli police raid, according to reports. Officers stormed the al Aqsa Mosque firing stun grenades, tear gas and baton rounds after stones were thrown at Jewish worshippers at the Western Wall, police and witnesses said. At least six people are reported to have been wounded. A senior official in the Islamic Trust, which administers the mosque compound, tried to calm the situation, urging worshippers to go home, witnesses said. Most have left, but several hundred stone throwers remain...
Posted by: Lux ||
04/02/2004 6:40:24 AM ||
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...just my two cents, but I think it's completely wrong to place the sarcastic quote marks on either side of the word, holy.
Lux, you should have only put one quote mark in preceeding the word,"holy" since it seems that that eyesore dome is still currently filled to the gills with assholes.
#4
The Israelis should completely restrict access to the Temple Mount. No one but the janitors for the Al Aqsa Mosque, Dome of the Rock, etc. The place is sacred to at least three religions. If the Palestinians seek to deny access to Christians and Jews, why what's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.
From Jihad Unspun
Iraqi Sources close to the Resistance in al-Fallujah report that the toll of dead US aggressors killed in the fighting in and around that town from last Thursday and Friday, 25 and 26 March 2004 exceeded 20 dead. The sources told QudsPress on Monday that during the battles of al-Fallujah, the Resistance was able to destroy eight US tanks and six Humvees.
The Iraqi sources said that the latest attacks on the US aggressors employed a new and technique that resulted in the death of a large number of deaths in the ranks of the occupation army. The Resistance called in sharpshooters who were able to hunt the Americans in a manner that baffled the US invader troops. In addition, the Resistance made use of various types of weapons in the combat.
According to QudsPress quoting a local Iraqi newspaper, the US aggressors intentionally killed an Iraqi cameraman working for an American TV company during the fighting because he managed to film the eight destroyed American tanks. According to the report, the US troops demanded his camera and the video he shot. When he refused and attempted to leave the scene of the engagement, the US troops shot him and destroyed his camera. They then ruined the film and cameras of several other correspondents who were present during the combat.
Leaflets distributed by the fighting Resistance detachments threatened the members of the puppet so-called interim governing council of Iraq not to interfere in the affairs of al-Fallujah. They declare that any member of the council who visits the city to try to break up the resistance to the occupation will be killed.
Posted by: Mike Sylwester ||
04/02/2004 1:47:19 AM ||
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Oh brother, what a load. I love how ALL of the film is conveniently destroyed and the cameramen, etc. are gunned down in cold blood. Suffices in the Arab mind for the lack of proof.
This fantasy lasts precisely as long as the planning for the Falljuah Bath. Not Ba'athist, bath. Just a straight-forward cleaning out of a slimy shithole which is harboring barbarians.
When it comes, will Jihad Spunup be there? Will they breathe a word of fact? Nahhh. Not likely.
#8
According to Washington Post three of the four killed in Falujah last Thursday, where excellent trained ex navy seals, I wonder what took them to Falujah without much precautions, sheer stupidity almost suicidal.
Posted by: Murat ||
04/02/2004 6:28 Comments ||
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#9
Murat, welcome back. Are you saying that of the four US civilian contractors from North Carolina -three were former Seals? And the Washington Post wrote that?
#10
Seafarious, good article - tells me what I've had a hunch on. We're not playing their game, we're playing our game. As we say in the Corps - you eat the elephant one bite at a time. They will learn.
BTW - I like how they talk about Fallujian sharp shooters - lol. Arabic sharpshooters, kind of like Italian war heros.
#11
One was an ex Navy Seal. ONE. The other were reportedly Veterans in the commercial sector. And if you're saying delivering food, which they were doing, is wrong then we'll just let Fallujah starve to death.
Posted by: Charles ||
04/02/2004 7:39 Comments ||
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#12
Remember, folks, for Murat American corpses are aphrodisiacs.
(Murat himself is a coward. He still hasn't provided the evidence he claims to have about my identity.)
Posted by: Robert Crawford ||
04/02/2004 9:07 Comments ||
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#14
Hello Jarhead
take a look at: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4651943/
The three where ex military, with too much recklesness driving into Falujah, a too dangerous stupid move. May their souls rest in peace.
Posted by: Murat ||
04/02/2004 9:34 Comments ||
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#15
But how could they destroy eight tanks? I thought our tanks had disintegrator beams on them?
(And gardernit, I kenna find the old Rantburg story from the war where some nitwit Arab paper was claiming that).
Posted by: Laurence of the Rats ||
04/02/2004 9:37 Comments ||
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FOAD, Murat.
Posted by: Robert Crawford ||
04/02/2004 9:41 Comments ||
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F you too Robert
Posted by: Murat ||
04/02/2004 9:53 Comments ||
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#18
You would think that after Al Jaz and company got caught in 03 making up stuff about how the US army was being destroyed outside Baghdad that they would control their rhetoric. I guess the Arab mind just doesn't seem to grasp the concept of 'fact'.
#19
Murat: The three where ex military, with too much recklesness driving into Falujah, a too dangerous stupid move. May their souls rest in peace.
For once, I agree with Murat. This was a stupid move on the part of the contractors. In addition, I suspect they may have established a routine, such that the terrorists knew when to expect them. They either forgot their training or never bothered to use it.
I'm neither military nor ex-military - but a basic lesson on small unit tactics that I've gathered from reading Dave Hackworth's books is this - in guerrilla warfare, predictability results in casualties. And the cold truth is that soldiers learn from the mistakes of their predecessors. Those who don't learn, die. You snooze, you lose - respect the enemy's capabilities, or pay with your life.
#20
ZF, good points, chaging routine and the predictability factor is key in becoming a "hard target". Not sure what the deal was w/these guys - let's get all the facts before we assume anything. Though I agree w/you, on the surface this does look pretty bush leaguer.
#21
Another (salutary) lesson that private security contractors in Iraq will draw from this incident is this - do not expect the US military to bail you out from messes of your own creation. Operate like a private army in hostile territory, not as rent-a-cops on a joyride through Indian country. Contractors need to start operating in convoy and inserting a little unpredictability into their schedules, meaning that trips or deliveries should be announced at the last minute to the recipients or not announced at all. Routes or reception points should be varied, such that it presents an insurmountable problem, from a coverage standpoint, to bands of roving terrorists.
Another side benefit of this incident is that it brought the roaches out of the woodwork. All that camera exposure of the hundred-odd people involved in the festivities will come back to haunt them. We now know their faces. We will get to know their names. Then we'll find out where they live. Eventually, we'll take them into custody and find out who has been giving them orders and paying them. Then we kill or capture the order givers and the paymasters and confiscate their cash and weaponry. It's slow and painstaking, but their time will come.
A third benefit from this incident is this - the media, in an effort to cow American public opinion, have released gruesome photos of the victims - something they avoided doing after 9/11 to avoid showing us the nature of our enemy. This will backfire on the media - these photos are certain to enrage middle-of-the-roaders against our enemies. The media are referring to Lebanon and Somalia as precedents for American withdrawal after atrocities against US personnel. But the fact is that both Lebanon and Somalia were rescue operations. Lebanon was carried out to rescue the PLO's leadership, and Somalia was a humanitarian operation. Iraq, by contrast, is an operation designed to cow the leadership of the Muslim world into submission - the message to them is this - "what happened to Saddam could happen to you if you continue fomenting and financing terrorists, whether actively or passively by tolerating these activities". The media, in its typically myopic manner, does not see that these atrocities will strengthen American resolve* rather than weaken it. And that is all to the good. We need them to keep those photos coming.
* Hatred, rather than resolve, is a better word - for the barbarians our servicemen are fighting.
#22
jarhead: Are you saying that of the four US civilian contractors from North Carolina -three were former Seals? And the Washington Post wrote that?
One was a SEAL, one was ex-Green Beret and another was former Army. But all the training in the world does not insulate you from stupid tactics. Commandos are not like Swiss Army knives - they are useful only in specific contexts. And one of those contexts is not making routine runs along pre-established routes into enemy-held territory. Special Forces are effective only when they are unpredictable and stealthy. Without these elements, they are just highly-competent infantry.
#23
ZF, more astute commentary, Hack's the man btw. I'd chime in to some that were wondering why the Marines didn't whack and stack rag-heads at that bridge right after the attacks - basically the commander's prolly knew the media fiasco and potential ambushes that awaited a relief force, weighed the options and felt that it wasn't the time to be baited into a public display of butchery - though personally I would've lmao seeing a hundred camel jockeys getting blown off a bridge w/a hellfire or two.
Next, icy professionalism needs to replace the gut instinct of anger. Hatred is great word. Anger can lead to recklessness, hatred is cold and calculating - that is where we must go psychologically. Respect those who give respect to us, destroy those who don't methodically and with extreme prejudice.
#24
It was a really really stupid idea to invade Iraq.Now look what has happened at Fallujah.If there hadnt have been a war those people who died might still be at home with their families.
#25
Well, that does it for me. I'm packing up and heading home with my tail betwixt my legs. Thanx, AW, you rock! Hell, I'm even gonna vote for Skeery to make my new status official.
#26
Yes, and if there hadn't been a war innocent Iraqis would still be being tortured and killed and brutally repressed by Saddam. Sucks, huh?
Posted by: The Doctor ||
04/02/2004 11:07 Comments ||
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#27
Right on AW, we should never got involved in that American Civil War, WWI, WWII, Korea, 'Nam, or the first Gulf War because people got killed and were not at home w/their families. No one likes war moron, but it's often a necessary evil when there's assholes in the world who need to get dealt with.
#29
I'M not the moron Jarhead but I CAN tell you who is right are you near a mirror well stand up and walk to the nearest one and look into it,behold there is your moron. If war is the answer its a very stupid question.
#30
If war is the answer its a very stupid question.
LOL! Antiwar is full of deep thoughts.
Posted by: Lil Dhimmi ||
04/02/2004 11:50 Comments ||
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#31
Hey AW, as the bumper sticker on my car says (hat tip Protest Warrior) "Other than salvery, facism, naziism and communism, WAR NEVER SOLVED ANYTHING". What color is the sky in your make believe world?
Posted by: remote man ||
04/02/2004 12:09 Comments ||
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#32
Remote man what colour are the walls of the "rest home" you live in? I'ts important to take your meds dont spit them out next time.
#33
Antiwar: If war is the answer its a very stupid question.
Actually, war has been the answer for a lot of questions, for both just and unjust causes. One question was whether Americans would live free of British tyranny. The answer for that was in the affirmative, *after* the War of Independence. For the Chinese, the question was whether China would live under Communist rule. The Chinese Communists got the answer they wanted, *after* they destroyed the Nationalist armies. The questions weren't stupid - what is stupid is the assumption that people go to war for no important reason. These are thought-out positions, positions for which people are willing to risk their lives. Anyone who belittles them as stupid has no concept of the realities of this world.
#36
Antiwar: Zhang you obviously approve of state sanctioned murder you are one sick bitch/bastard.
Antiwar obviously approves of peacenik-sponsored suicide. That's probably wrong - she probably approves of state-sponsored killings as long as the killers are on the other side. She is one maladjusted traitor.
#37
Atta girl AW, grab that crapet between your teeth and give it a good shake, make the spittle fly. I just love your tender liberal sympathy for the 85% of Iraqis who suffered under Saddam. Maybe we shouldn't have fought Hitler and Tojo huh? If that were the case, then you would be speaking Japanese or wouldn't even be here because your parents would have been killed. I can appreciate pacifist sentiments when they are combined with logic. You don't seem to fit that profile.
Posted by: remote man ||
04/02/2004 12:28 Comments ||
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#38
This post was supposed to run yesterday, right? --as an April Fool's joke?
Antiwar says: Â Â It was a really really stupid idea to invade Iraq. Now look what has happened at Fallujah.If there hadnt have been a war those people who died might still be at home with their families.
Yeah, and if we hadn't gone in, Ouday could still be picking women off the streets at random to suck his ugly dick at gunpoint. Iraqi women even now are organzing services of mourning and protest. What we did was absolutely wrong. Additionally, all who spent a warm and fuzzy time in one of Sadaam's many torture chambers really regret our actions. Now they have to just get gone and get home! What a complete drag. And that isn't even the end of it! The young children who were taken from their families and put in prison--they are crying their eyes out now. Imagine--they'd be there to this day if it weren't for our intervention. Damn us and our war against Iraq!
NEWSFLASH: This just in: The Iraqis beating the statue of Sadaam with their shoes were guys US forces rounded up in Kuwait, who were then forced to march across the desert on foot without food or water. They were told, before cameras arrived, that if they didn't make the revelry and partying look convincing, they'd be shot later. The whole thing was nothing more than a photo op for the Marines. (Those silly guys! What will they think of next? Guess they'll just have to start a war somewhere else. Everyone's getting bored of the Iraq story. The West needs a new buzz.)
Antiwar, why is it that I just don't buy it that you're as stupid as you like to pretend you are?
#39
AW, you're so right, I am a moron......
Moron enough to believe you could ever possibly utter one fucking logical sentence without the same old tired bullshit pansie-assed grab-asstic liberal dogma. I'd suggest putting down the bong, as well as the chomsky and che' biographies for a second and reading a history book. Your also full of shit btw - no way your of Irish descent - your obviously too fucking stupid w/out any articulation and have no stomach for fighting - got to be a belgian or parisian trying to pass yourself off as a mick. On second thought, your posts are so incoherent that it sounds like your drunk off your ass - so maybe you could be a mick. Some advice - maybe should call yourself anti-brave, anti-smart, anti-brain, or aunti-bore - take your pick.
#40
AntiWar - please you are in lala land. The invasion of Iraq has done more good than bad - at least from an American perspective. The leadership of countries that were enemies before 9-11 and our enemies after (and some that were so-called allies before 9-11) have been put on notice that the status-quo is over and America is coming. And it is working, the increase in terrorist/enemy state activity shows a level of deperation we have not seen in OUR 25 years of confrontation.
If you think that by appeasing and hoping for the best is solution to the current situation/leadership of the middle east is the answer then the western democracies are doomed. You are probably sitting back in a comfortable middle class existance totally withdrawn from the realites of the world. Decisive action is required and the events the other day in Falluja will happen again. It was not a spontaneous reaction but a cold blooded calculated event. It is the enemy we face.
I remember reading a post awhile back where it was stated you are Australian. If true remember that only decisive action in the Solomans kept Australia free from Japenese domination. If your attitude prevailed Australia would be part of the past.
And in the current situation Australia knows who their real freinds are who are just talk. Australia is in a tough niegborhood and will need support one day to deal with Indonesia.
Posted by: Dan ||
04/02/2004 12:45 Comments ||
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#41
It's sad to say, but Antiwar is a committed idiotarian and trying to reason with her is wasted effort. As .com noted above, this is a case of putting pearls before swine. She's a creature of conviction, an ignorant, blinkered fool, and possibly too set to change her ways. There are people out there who are receptive to arguments like yours, but from what we've seen so far, Antiwar's not one of them.
#42
BD / All - So true, BD. Y'know, in her perverse unintentional way, she certainly serves at least one purpose: You get a TON of literate, cogent, and considered responses - all of which serve to sharpen the points under discussion. At best, such as this thread, I'll offer that she was a Socratic burr under the RB saddle, heh. I love to mix metaphors... This is an excellent thread - kudos all for such clear comments, I sure as hell appreciate them even if they are lost upon Dear Aunti! 8^)
#43
Bad tactics get people killed. The CIA guy in Afghanistan (Spahn) was got killed because he was violating everyone of the "five S's" of POW handling (search, segregate, silence, safeguard, and speed). That doesn't mean that he was a bad guy. In fact he was a Great American. He just screwed up one time. That's all it takes.
#44
Let's not forget that these guys weren't heading into battle -- they were going to a security job, guarding food. Criticizing their tactics makes it sound like they were headed into a battle.
Posted by: Robert Crawford ||
04/02/2004 13:25 Comments ||
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#45
RC: With all due respect, when you are in an area infested with guerillas (or jihadis) _everything_ you do is tactical, including breathing, crapping and sleeping. You literally do not take a shit without someone pulling overwatch on you.
#46
Robert Crawford: Let's not forget that these guys weren't heading into battle -- they were going to a security job, guarding food. Criticizing their tactics makes it sound like they were headed into a battle.
These are great guys, and their mistakes do not detract from that. But they weren't glorified rent-a-cops, not with the $1000 a day pay they were reputedly getting and the fact that seasoned pros like them were hired instead of four out of the masses of unemployed Iraqis. The terrorists had shown their willingness to kill random Iraqi bystanders, American civilians, UN staff, non-American civilians - you name it - it was a target. It was silly for them to assume that they were somehow safe from attack - again, they were hired for their combat expertise, not for their good looks.
Why do a post-mortem, since they're already dead? So that their sucessors will not repeat the mistakes of the past. If our attempt at pacification of the Muslim world fails, and a really big bomb detonates in an American city, killing hundreds of thousands, we may find ourselves personally responsible for holding down a stretch of turf in one of a bunch godforsaken Muslim countries, this time (hopefully) after significant battlefield preparation (i.e. hundreds of thousands of artillery rounds and of aerial bombs).
#47
ZF: An excellent point and one that AW does not seem to grasp (among others). If we are not successful and the Islamofascists detonate an atomic device on US soil, there will be millions killed in our response. As RB'ers have pointed out in the past, no other response will be politically acceptable. We have to succeed in our current effort. The alternative is grim.
Posted by: remote man ||
04/02/2004 14:01 Comments ||
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#48
Points taken, but I just don't think any of us have all the information available to say they fucked up. Sometimes you can do everything right and everything still goes wrong.
Posted by: Robert Crawford ||
04/02/2004 14:14 Comments ||
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#49
How the fuck old are you Anti-war?
You debate at a level slightly higher and more cognisant than a telly-tubby. I frequently pass turds that could make anti-war arguments several orders of magnitude better than your puerile dribblings. You are positively remedial, but you are serving a purpose around here. Just like a freak on Jerry Springer you can be the source of a readers immediate, powerful, irrefutable and inherent knowledge of his clear mental and linguistic superiority to yourself. In hard times it can always help "cheer you up" to compare your musings with an illiterate, cancerous polyp of the rectum of society. Keep up the good work cocksmoke.
"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."
Replace the male gender references with female ones, and the result applies to "Antiwar" perfectly.
#52
Jeez, how pathetic. In response to legitimate criticism founded on facts, AW pretends to be clarivoyant and a Psychologist, degrading rapdily to juvenile "so's yo' mom!" rejoinders. Hell, even Murat responds with SOME facts, rather than AW's pseudo-compassion hiding a heartless regard for the tens of thousands of Iraqis saved from Saddam's dictatorship. Nice and comfy in her snug little hole is AW, totally clueless as to what it takes to protect her. We know better. She doesn't.
Just a reminder. SHE SUPPORTED KEEPING A DICTATOR IN POWER. WE DEPOSED A DICTATOR. SHE SUPPORTED A LEECH DRAINING THE IRAQIS. WE ARE SPENDING GOOD MONEY TO GET IRAQ BACK ON ITS FEET. Given that, she's lost all moral authority, and she knows it, being able only to mouth pseudo-pieties and snarl juvenile rejoinders.
#53
I just don't think any of us have all the information available to say they fucked up.
I concur. In addition, the outrage here was not that a few ex-military guys were killed, but what the savages did to the bodies afterward.
Also remember that those little shitheads we see cheering on every photo are probably used as spies and for early warning, like in Somalia. Especially in a smaller city, it doesn't matter what route you take or how many changes you make to it.
Posted by: Rafael ||
04/02/2004 14:27 Comments ||
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#54
Robert Crawford: Points taken, but I just don't think any of us have all the information available to say they fucked up. Sometimes you can do everything right and everything still goes wrong.
Four of them went off together in a single vehicle. Just off the top of my head, I would have used two vehicles to diffuse the number of targets. And four people is too few. Four people is fine when you're part of an A-team in the middle of nowhere. But four people in the middle of a densely-populated city of a quarter-million people?
Even active-duty US troops don't do that, and they have on-call air power and airmobile quick reaction teams. The military stopped sending lone humvees out in hostile territory after a few incidents with the locals that resembled this one, without the bridge interlude. From then on, it was convoys all the way, with air cover to provide backup firepower.
#55
Rafael: In addition, the outrage here was not that a few ex-military guys were killed, but what the savages did to the bodies afterward.
I was enraged in the immediate aftermath, but a thought occurred to me - these guys are dead. No one can hurt them any more. These savages can put the cadavers through a meat grinder, and it still wouldn't do more damage to them than has already been done. They're gone, and we still need to finish the terrorists off. From a practical standpoint, what happened to them was no different from what happened to the four US civilians who were killed just days ago. The key is to learn from their mistakes and move on.
#56
cut them off so they have to drink their own urine and eat their own crap until every foreigner, every weapon, and everyone responsible is handed over.
#57
cut them off so they have to drink their own urine and eat their own crap until every foreigner, every weapon, and everyone responsible is handed over.
#60
I am apparently the type of calm, level-headed sort of raving lunatic that can punctuate correctly.
I am sorry that you believe that all in the world is madness, and I'm sorry that not all problems can be solved solely by talking them through during neatly packaged 30 minute episodes.
A perfect case in point: all the rational responses in this thread cannot convince you to change your position, "Antiwar". Similarly all of the civilized chat in the UN Security Council could not convince the French, the Germans, the Russians or the Chinese to change their positions. (Their positions being held, most likely, due to nothing more complicated than economic interest.)
I won't impune your sanity. That is not for me to know or to judge. All I ask is that you consider the arguments for and against war with an open mind. You do consider yourself to be open-minded. Don't you?
#61
I'd argue with you Antiwar, but I have to go now. Pottery class starts in five minutes. Nurse Ratched says that if I play nice and don't make a mess this time, I'll be able to watch TV next week!
#62
Antiwar - please give some substance and not this childish rubbish. the same type of people who voted for Bush (His name is Bush - have some respect. We even refer to Clinton by his name) are the same type of people who would vote Howard.
Just what type of world do you live in? Where mankind loves they neighbor? You cannot make someone like you and you cannot run and hide when they want to hurt you. Hoping that your love of peace and fratenerty will sway them. This just fuels the fires of fascism. These people are dogs and when dogs smell fear they pounce.
The more you comment the more you show yourself to be nitwit. The world is a dangerous place and you should be thankful that there are people who are willing to sacrafice so we all can live in freedom.
Post comments with merit and intelegence. You may think everyone hear is a lunatic for having strong feelings but at least they can articulate a point of view. You do not even try to appreciate another point of view , very typical left attitue, it is either your way or no way. Well if the west (in praticular the US) had the same view we would all be paying tribute to our Islamic masters. Not the world I want to live nor my children. Things do not change cause this is the same stance that my grandfathers generation took when fighting fascism earlier this century.
Posted by: Dan ||
04/02/2004 16:38 Comments ||
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#63
11A5S - Do you guys have the old kick-it flywheels or the new electric kind? Everything I do turns out to be an ashtray. Sigh. ;-)
#67
Aunty, the day you'll be "vindicated" is the day that Life for most of us will no longer be worth living.
I, for one, will do everything I can to make sure that black day never dawns for you and your ilk.
Posted by: Jen ||
04/02/2004 18:32 Comments ||
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#69
It's JENNIE, like Churchill's mother, thank you.
And life under your Leftist Nanny Police State wouldn't be worth living, but that's not going to happen because President Bush is going to be reelected and Conservatives are taking this country, at least, back.
Here's hoping it will happen in Britain and Australia, too!
Posted by: Jen ||
04/02/2004 18:46 Comments ||
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#70
Holy smokes folks! Antiwar is just another toungue pierced, coffee stand, brains in butt protester who does not believe in "Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of those who threaten it". Don't give it so much attention ... it wanks off to it ... spend your time instead email Anne Coutler and telling her she rocks!
#71
Be rest assured folks that any article from "Jihad Unspun" is loaded with a lot of wishful thinking for the
arab world. It's time the residents of falujah and their foreign fighter friends discover the power of the BLU-82 "daisycutter" shat out at them from the back of an AC-130. Kill them all!
#72
What is it this world you idiots live in? A kind of militaristic warmongering type world obviously. Anyone who would vote for Dubya has got to be a raving lunatic. I wouldnt be surprised if some of you were in a pyschiatric insitution.Hope the staff at your facility treat you well ha ha. Remember that the medication you have been prescribed is to help you and swallow it next time.
#74
Good Lord Jenny have you forgotten your Haldol? I guess your life won't be worth living then. Never mind Im sure your memories of your hero Dubya will sustain you.
From Jihad Unspun
Pakistani paramilitary forces have completed their preparation for another operation in the border areas of Balochistan. Our sources tell us that since Balochistan is close to the Waziristan areas, it is feared that many fighters escaped from Waziristan to the border areas of Balochistan. For that, security forces have started arriving in the districts of Zhob and Qila Safiullah. Some helicopters are flying over the areas to assess how the operation will go on. Zhob and Qila Safiullah are known as Taliban strongholds, and it is feared that the fighters from Waziristan are now heading towards that area.
The deaths of 70 innocent civilians in the recent fighting in South Waziristan has been confirmed by the Grand Tribal Jirga. The representatives of Mahmnd Agency said that 70 civilians were killed by gunship helicopters. The majority of the dead were women and children. Also, the tribes disclosed that some of the âterroristsâ that were arrested by the Pakistani government were actually students of schools and colleges.
According to sources, it has been learned that the Americans have decided not to leave the Shebaz Airbase in Jacobabar. They now plan to stay on now for unspecified time. It was reported that Americans were planning to leave the base with in a month however this now appears not to be the case. Most of the soldiers stationed there, who numbered in thousands have already left, and only few hundred remain who have been waiting for orders to pull out.
All of their heavy equipment and trailers and other equipment were donated to a company that had helped the Americans set up the base. But after the heavy fight in Waziristan agency, they have decided to keep that base open. Now, C-130 planes have started arriving at night to deliver soldiers and equipment. That base was a major base for operations launched against Taliban government. The dead servicemenâs bodies too are kept in the freezer room of this base. The American soldiers do not venture out of the base for fear of attacks.
Posted by: Mike Sylwester ||
04/02/2004 1:39:19 AM ||
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#1
The dead servicemenâs bodies too are kept in the freezer room of this base.
#3
The Americans don't venture out huh? Sounds like Indian Territory
Posted by: Frank G ||
04/02/2004 11:36 Comments ||
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#4
the americans stay inside not cause its dangerous - is it really more dangerous than on the afghan side of the border??? but cause its in Pakland, and we're trying to keep a low profile there - we're only supposed to have a logitics/air base to support ops in afghanistan.
EFL - Uzbeki letter to the editor of Ferghana.Ru about PC and currupt response to terrorism (roughly parallel to the DNC/Chomsky correct response to terror plan.
I remember explosions in Tashkent in February five years ago and what they did to our economy. Regular reports to the government may have included some optimistic figures, but budget sphere employees with meager salaries (teachers, doctors, state officials of low ranks, etc) felt the echo of February explosions that summer: the Uzbek sum went down, pay-rises became history. Training and propagandistic counter-terrorism programs were promptly adopted by all institutes and universities, not to mention hospitals and other state organizations. Curricula of institutes and universities, for example, were burdened with a new subject Vidzhon Erkingli Va Diny Extremizm (liberty of conscience and religious extremism). The subject was supposed to take priority over absolutely everything. It was taught by famished tutors in tatters (there are such decent tutors who do not know what is good for them) or by the ones who had become fat accepting bribes (there are such ones too). It was even worse than that, sometimes. The subject was taught by police officers or representatives of khokimijats (mayoralty) and prosecutorâs offices - the men ordinary Uzbeks in general and students specifically are not exactly endeared to.
The campaign backfired. It does not matter that some students merely slept in the lecture halls or discussed how much the new subject would cost them by way of bribes at the exams. What counts is that some meticulous students calculated how profitable terrorism was and how much an explosion could be paid for.Department of Peace?
Explosions on February 16, 1999, provided an additional impetus for corrupt traffic police officers and officials manning checkpoints and metro stations. Particularly rude were traffic police officers on the Kuilyuk Bridge searching absolutely all cars from the Ferghana valley and policemen assigned to Sabir Rakhimov metro station collecting from vendors they searched (the metro station in question was on the way to the famous Hippodrome wholesale market). I earnestly believe that most terrorist acts only enrich police officers. Of course, most of them honestly want peace and do not want to be restricted to the barracks with nighttime patrols, inspections, etc. But there are police officers (lots of them, in fact) who make money on distress. Unionize the airport inspectors?
All of us living in Uzbekistan want cloudless skies and happy lives. It pains us to see how the government cannot handle the outrage in its own and our country. It cannot indeed, because handling the outrage successfully demands that we understand the following:
1. Terrorism in Uzbekistan feeds on radical Islamic ideas and impoverishment of the population and particularly on episodes of crying injustice our life is full of. Meager salaries breed bribes, bribes breed corruption when state officials become businessmen and dictate the rules absolutely unfair with regard to other businessmen. Corruption leads to the lack of faith which eventually leads to economic stagnation. And dying economy cannot offer decent salaries to the people. This is a vicious circle that has to be broken but the powers-that-be do not see a way out. A non-Arab societal demonstration of how Soviet style socialism can breed militants. This is again equivalent to what happens Arab societies wit the added spice of Wahhabism.
2. Newspapers and TV channels are orderlies of moral health in any society. Instead of building informational barriers, normal conditions should be established for journalists. Crooked officials do not fear a reprimand from their superiors, they fear exposure. Superiors may be appeased, but not the people. The people will be merciless as regards these sores. Iraq, Iran, Syria, North Korea, Zimbabwe, Venezuela ..... The government does not understand that the informational boom sweeping across the world like an avalanche grows in geometric series. Information blockades will not help at all, they will only bring harm. For a stiff information blockade (like the one in the Soviet Union), the authorities of Uzbekistan will have to do away with Internet, confiscate all dish antennae, stop publication of Russian newspapers (already censored as they are), and - what really counts - outlaw free exit and entrance from and into the country. Can the authorities afford it? No way, because it will mean a colossal economic catastrophe. Cuba, Iran, Saudi Arabia, PRC ....
What information blockade are we talking about then? Mini-blockades (like making some websites unavailable, censorship of Russian newspapers, silence of the local media with regard to domestic problems) only whet the peopleâs appetites. Adepts of ideological sabotage use all of that and use it smartly.
How else can we explain the rumors in Uzbekistan that the presidentâs elder daughter has privatized absolutely everything?
snip - details of nepotism present in Venezuela, Zimbabwe, Lybia and various other despotic regimes.
3. Competent specialists should be promoted into upper echelons of the state. Particularly the men who can work with the media, who can mount adequate PR campaigns. Ordinary Uzbeks know all federal ministers in Russia, they even have favorites there like Shvydkoi (culture) and Fetisov (athletics). But who knows the Uzbek minister of culture? Do we have this ministry in the first place? Even I (and I view myself as a more or less educated person) cannot answer the question. Who knows the Uzbek minister of athletics? Ministers of the Uzbek government move into the spotlight only when they become actually damaging. Maybe we can send them Stephanopolis - I disagree with teh writer on the value of spinmeistering.
-snip- biting social commentary but irrelevant to WOT
Here are but a few conjectures:
STATE OFFICIAL OF ANY RANK, REMEMBER:
OPENNESS, HONESTY, AND DECENCY WILL ONLY UP YOUR CLOUT WITH THE PEOPLE
CLEAR CONSCIENCE IS MORE HEALTHY THAN ALL FASHIONABLE SPAS YOU VISIT WHEN THE POPULATION OF YOUR COUNTRY HAS BEEN ROBBED ONCE AGAIN
THERE IS GOD. THAT IS PROVED, SO FORGET ALL YOUR DOUBTS. IT IS ALSO PROVED THAT HE DISLIKES CROOKS
SWISS BANKS ARE PREDISPOSED TO ARRESTING CROOKSâ BANK ACCOUNTS
RELATIVES MAY BETRAY YOU ONCE YOUâVE REGISTERED ALL YOUR WORLDLY ASSETS IN THEIR NAMES. THE PEOPLE WILL NEVER BETRAY
***
The letter was delivered to Ferghana.Ru on March 30 morning. This is a verbatim rendition.
Posted by: Super Hose ||
04/02/2004 1:37:47 AM ||
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TWO Russian policemen were killed in breakaway Chechnya early today and another four were badly wounded when they walked on a land mine in the eastern city of Gudermes, the Interfax news agency reported, quoting a local police official. The policemen "were blown up by a Mon-5 type mine. As a result of the explosion, two policemen were fatally wounded and four others were badly injured", the unidentified official said. The police were looking for the perpetrators of the attack, the official added.
Posted by: Dan Darling ||
04/02/2004 1:26:38 AM ||
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EFL; go read the whole thing, I think heâs got it right.
. . . in Falluja, we have seen another operation consistent with the doctrine of terrorism, only this time the US was the target. Four American civilians driving through that city were killed, and their bodies were desecrated by an exultant crowd. Foreign cameramen captured it all.
I'm also curious as to how the foreign cameramen were so conveniently on the spot...
The Baathist insurgency thought that ongoing attacks would cause American demoralization and retreat. That didnât work, because they monumentally misjudged the American character. But the goal of this attack is to inspire American fury. What they hope is that the Americans will be blinded by hatred and will do something extremely stupid: to punish the Sunnis collectively for the actions of the terrorist group.
Certain American voices I heard on the radio today were busy exhibiting a distinctly Spanish character, beating their collective CBS breast and mooing about quagmires. But SDB is right: overreaction would be as much a mistake as underreaction. Reprisals should be directed at everyone on tape and at everyone the guys on tape ID, not at leveling and city and sowing the ground with salt, much as we'd like to...
Remember, thatâs the basic theory behind terrorism; thatâs the core of the doctrine of terrorism as a form of violent warfare. It is not the terrorist act itself which helps advance the political goals of the terrorist group; it is rather the reprisal. Terrorism is a form of jiu-jitsu, a way of using an enemyâs strength against himself. (In jiu-jitsu, you donât throw an opponent. You aid him in throwing himself.)
It's the separation of the populace into "us" and "them," with "them" being the bad guys...
If there are broad reprisals against the uncommitted friendly population because of the acts of the terrorists, that population will become motivated and polarized in favor of the position held by the terrorists. If the American response is viewed by the Sunnis as being directed broadly at all Sunnis, rather than being targeted specifically at those responsible for this outrage, then thereâs every likelihood that the Sunnis will begin to wonder whether the US is actually genuine in its attempts to include the Sunnis as equal partners in the new government of Iraq. That would be a major victory for al Qaeda.
On the other hand, we can do a bit of "us and them" outselves, by continuously reminding the Kurds and the Shiites that the Sunni Triangle comprises the same people who brutalized Iraq for 35 years — actually longer, since Sammy wasn't the first ever dictator. While Kurds and Shiites build stability and return to civilization, nothing's changed in the Triangle. One thing we should be doing is policing Fallujah with Kurds and Shiites, and excluding Sunnis from the police and security apparatus.
This terrorist attack was an application of violence intended to derail the American effort to set up a liberal democracy in Iraq, by attempting to provoke an American reprisal which would lead to Sunni suspicion and reduce Sunni participation in that democracy. . . . We have to respond, and we have to respond massively. But that response must be targeted only at those truly involved in this attack. Sunnis collectively must not feel themselves victimized by it. . . .
The trick will be to make the Sunnis feel victimized by the loons in their midst: "What the hell have you gotten us into, Mahmoud?"
What is needed is a response which simultaneously punishes al Qaeda and reassures the Sunnis. But to do that, there has to be preparation. Our intelligence people now are busting their butts trying to learn everything they can about this attack and those responsible for it. . . .
We have the tapes. We have the photos. Ask the guys on the photos. And ask them what the guys with the keffiyehs over their faces looked like without them.
Posted by: Mike ||
04/02/2004 1:20:50 AM ||
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#1
The one qualm I have so far with how things are going with regard to a response is that they're sort of musing about it out loud; saying that it will be overwhelming, at a time of our choosing, blah blah blah. Practically sounds like a verbal threat. Why? Just formulate the plan, and when the time comes, execute it as thoroughly and professionally as possible. Along with capturing or killing all the people involved in the deaths of the 4 Americans, the idea to get across is that we mean BUSINESS, and blustering about it, no matter how small, is less likely to create fear in the enemy than apparent visible preparations (such as an obvious buildup in the presence of U.S. combat personnel) coupled with little to no mention of upcoming military plans.
#3
The logical analysis he included from MEMRI was written by the cream of the AlQ / JI crop. It makes sense to a Westerner because it is logical by Western standards. Though I agree it's accurate, it is very misleading to rely upon it too heavily here. These AlQ / JI / whatever people only control events up to a point. The pulling of the RPG trigger was the last they had to say about the event in Fallujah. C&C stopped right there. Everything that followed was out of their hands - and this is where Charles Johnson got it right. The crowd was mainly accidental bystanders and this was as non-Western a response as can be imagined, today.
What the people of Fallujah think and how they will react to our next moves must be unhinged from that JI article. The Arabs of Fallujah will not react according to our Western ideas of what is rational and logical. The cretins at the bridge saw what they perceived to be a chance to relieve some of their "humiliation" by America. That's it. Almost an autonomous reaction.
What will happen next and its success or failure will be based upon Arab thinking: Are they weak or strong? Do we mock them and sign up with the foreigners to remove the stain from our "honor" by dying to drive them out? Or do we fear them for they are some badass motherfuckers who will punish any and every form of resistence? And maybe we should sign up for the Police or Army or assist them with intel - they're going to win. For most, it will be more or less black and white.
Listen, the vast majority of them fail to comprehend just what the hell we're even doing there. They were too cowardly to deal with Saddam and the Ba'athists themselves. They saw our power in removing them. Then they saw what? US troops trying to be buddies and doing good deeds. As a source, the Life of Brian movie is amazingly accurate. Recall the end of active ops and the beginning of the good deeds. "What have the Romans ever done for us?" And the answer was roads, schools, aquaducts, you name it. Very funny stuff for Western minds. I guarantee you that Arabs watching that movie would react totally differently and say, "They occupy our land! Death to the Romans!"
To tell the truth, we have singularly failed to impress them in an Arab way, post war, and failed to fill what they see as the power vaccuum. Sadr & Co, the Ba'athist remnants, and the incoming foreign jihadis will do that, in Iraqi minds, while we absorb casualties, if we don't seize this moment. The message this sends is even more confusing to the Iraqis than it is to our American idiotarians - who just lump it into the evil Bush conspiracy of the week.
In a way, Fallujah is an opportunity, a pivotal moment in this Iraq venture, for us to put up or shut up. The proof must be in Arab terms, not Western. Either we sweep Fallujah clean and deal out extreme penalties for everyone who's uncooperative or associated with the jihadis (this latest event is only one of many, after all) whether foreign or Ba'athist --or-- we should start building little Fort Apache's all over the country, withdraw into them, and watch the whole thing break down into civil war - with us absorbing even more casulaties. There is a parallel with our Old West. Until the Generals brought the soldiers out of their forts and put them on the offensive - and gave license to harsh and even brutal actions in dealing with resistance - they were embattled and ineffective, merely targets for opportunistic events like the one in Fallujah.
Old Spook's cordon, section, sweep, and cleanse plan, Opn Fallujah Kow-Tow in my mind, would work and send the right message: this shit stops here and now. Coming soon to a city near you: Fallujah now washes our feet. Next.
BTW, I still continue to believe that the Kurds should receive as much autonomy as we can afford them. We should upgrade their arms and let them control their entire region's borders and police their own streets. They should not have to await the outcome of the Sunni / Shi'a re-education and pacification, assuming we intend to do it. They deserve the chance to proceed on ahead and be backed to the hilt.
#4
I think both Steven and Charles make some points.
It's hard to tell what's really going on over there; that's why I take my cues from Bremer, Kimmitt and Abizaid.
I heard Bernard Kerik (who organized the police in Iraq for 6 months last year) tell Fox News that Falluja should be "levelled" to nip this crap in the bud.
Ideally, I'd love to see Iraqis turn in their jihadi killers "brothers."
Maybe even meet the punishment out themselves--remember the Iraqi Police were launching an investigation.
What bothered me the most about the incident (other than the defilement of the bodies) was that it was young boys who were doing a lot of the atrocities.
How do you "save" homicidal children or teach democracy and equal rights to kids who delight in murder and barbarism?
I think you have to be there--really.
At some point, the Rule of Law has to apply to everyone as a key ingredient of the democratic rule.
Mass killing, such as many in America have proposed, is what Iraqis are already familiary with.
Being jailed or executed for participating in 4 murders plus defiling their bodies after being given a fair trial is infinitely more desirable.
Speaking of trials, I think that Iraqis will settle down a lot more once Saddam is executed and you'll see far less Baathist resistance.
To take Den Beste's side (I guess) there are good reasons that the Marines didn't charge in and level the place yesterday or the day before.
We'll know them soon enough.
Posted by: Jen ||
04/02/2004 4:33 Comments ||
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#5
I think Bernard Kerik said that the jihadi should be leveled...not the city.
#6
I've got some Marine buddies who are in-country. What the Belmont club mentions is backed up by military intelligence on the ground. From what I've been told, there were clear indications that an ambush of the responding force was in place. That's part of the reason a bridge is where the bodies were hung from. A bridge is a good place for an ambush. That's why Iraqi forces were the ones that went in and that's why it was 10 hours later. Don't underestimate the enemy.
#7
the above article says, more eloquently, what I said yesterday.
Dot com the AQ may only control events up to a point - we also only control events up to a point - thats the nature of war. The question is, will an unrestrained US response, of the type some have called for here, that makes no distinction among Sunni Arabs, do more good by making hem fear us, or more harm by making them hate us? When AQ strategists who are in touch with the scene there, and US officers, who are in touch with the scene there, are in agreement about the strategic situation, and the people who beleive otherwise are ideologues who are NOT in touch with the scene there, and who are arguing based on a priori beleifs about all muslims everywhere, I know which strategic evaluation I believe.
The key to achieving most of that is establishment of a relatively successful liberal democracy in Iraq, which was the primary reason for the invasion (rhetoric about WMDs notwithstanding). And it can't be done unless the Sunnis participate and are accepted by the Kurds and Shiites.
During the Saddam years, the Sunnis were the top dogs, and Kurds and Shiites suffered very badly. With Saddam gone and the Baathists shattered, if what replaces them in turn oppresses the Sunnis, then in the long run it will fail to achieve the larger political goals the US requires: to inspire reform and liberalization of the entire region. We need the Sunnis themselves to participate, and we need the Shiites and Kurds to accept them.
And if we succeed, and if it actually does inspire liberalization elsewhere, it will be a catastrophe for the Islamists, and they know it. The insurgency in Iraq now is attempting to make that fail, by trying to prevent any reconciliation with the Sunnis.
#9
Lh - Wow. A very "Richard Clarke" post - congrats. In singling me out and associating me by implication with the scorched earth posts, when I obviously favor OS's approach, you clearly imply that wisdom can't possibly come from such a tainted source of skewed experiences. Fascinatingly disingenuous and disinformative post wrapped in one decent opinion point: whom you trust. Very very good. I bow to your cleverly crafted personal affront. Well done, Lh. You've just proven you're an asshole with a personal chip on your shoulder, but I always give credit where due. Very good.
#10
Chill a little, guys, we're pretty much all on the same side here (with the possible execption of Murat, and the definite exception of NMM and the recent Serbian Lop-Eared Troll infestation) and we can disagree without getting personal.
Posted by: Mike ||
04/02/2004 11:49 Comments ||
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#11
IM sorry Dot com perhaps i misread you. I read you as disagreeing with Den Beestes analysis - the first line of your post was to question him, IIUC. I presumed that therefore your view of what should be done in Fallujah was different from DB's - I know youve called for cordoning the city - I interpretated that you wanted to used cordoning to punish the city generally, and to use it for that purpose against the Sunni triangle generally. I may have misinterpreted you. Do you agree with DB's charecterization of what we must do? BTW, Im not saying we all must agree, disagreement and debate is good. I did single you out on this thread, as I THOUGHT (perhaps incorrectly) that you were the only one here who doesnt agree with the DB approach. Charles Johnson may disagree with DB, but he doesnt post here, and i dont read his site.
Its no secret that i take a generally different approach to the GWOT than you do Dot com, and I see dangers in your approach, as i see dangers in the approach of those to my left. However I dont mean to be personal in my disagreement - I do get somewhat emotional in some of my responses to you, but will you admit that some of your own posts are themselves emotional??? Im sorry, but someone who posts things as "provocative" as you do, should have thicker skin.
Again, if someone comes in here and posts that we should get out of iraq, cause its distracting from the WOT, or that a law enforcement approach is appropriate, most of us would attack him severely. If you post an approach I strongly disagree with, why should you expect I not strongly disagree with you.
I also dont know what the hell you mean about Richard Clarkish - my disagreement about tactics with SEVERAL folks here happened only the other day - now DB posts essentially the same thing I just said, and suddenly its all great?
#12
Though I agree it's accurate, it is very misleading to rely upon it too heavily here.
So you DONT agree with DB's recommendations?
everything that followed was out of their hands - and this is where Charles Johnson got it right.
CJ is NOT there, and is someone who regularly argues based on his a priori beliefs about muslims in general, largely based on his own reading of muslim texts. In fact it was him I had in mind when i refered to such a priori beliefs, as much as yourself.
The crowd was mainly accidental bystanders
Exactly the point made by a lefty in another board "see, it wasnt the insurgents, it was the locals! ha!" Me, Im not so sure. AQ et all have been in Fallujah for months, and are on very good terms with at least a large segment of the locals. AQ has studied Mogadishu, and has talked about it for YEARS. What reason is there to think they havent talked about doing this (mutilation) DELIBERATELY and as a STRATEGY, and havent prepped the locals to do it when the opportunity comes up? It makes perfect sense that they would. And if this is just the thing the locals do naturally, why hasnt it happened in Iraq in the entire last year??? No opportunity? I dont know, but i dont think so. Whereas if its strategy theres plenty of reason to do it now. A. Political transition coming up B. Attacks on Americans failing thus far either to lead to retreat, or to overreaction C. Even attacks on Shiites failed to provoke civil war.
#13
My ego must be feeling fragile today or something, but I _did_ post this on Wednesday, hours before Den Beste or Wretchard figured it out:
#45 In my opinion, it was a baited attack. The crowd and bodies on the bridge were the bait. They hoped we would attempt to disperse the crowd and recover the bodies. Every mounted avenue of approach was probably mined with IEDs. Every potential landing zone was surrounded with RPG toting jihadis waiting to reprise Blackhawk Down.
I still think we should have wasted everyone on that bridge and then gone into the town as OP and others outlined.
#15
Jeez, I don't want to write a book - and I'm sure you don't want to read one by me. I took offense because you implied offense by disparaging my experiences and ability to reason. I offer original thoughts here in RB with at least the frequency of anyone else. I don't suggest it's infallible - so pick away. But you got personal, IMHO. I'll stop there and get on with explaining what I thought I said in prior posts.
"So you DONT agree with DB's recommendations?"
100%? No. Relying upon logic, Western style, to explain the entire incident is the point I think is dangerous. JI leadership is logical in assessing CA intentions, true. Planners of this act may be as astute and planned for this with many possibilities in mind, such as those clearly pointed out by 11A5S. I suggested that the planners' C&C went *poof* with the pull of the trigger on the first RPG round - the rest was not logical in Western terms, was it?
Do you think the majority of the people present, yes mostly bystanders IMHO, knew what was coming and held a loya jirga and decided together to do what was done? No, of course not - and neither do I or CJ. Charles Johnson made this point: the barbarity that followed the attack was very very Arab and was about "honor" and "humiliation" - do you disagree?
What the planners did or did not intend became irrelevant - it snowballed along Arab logic lines. They (AlQ / JI/ whomever) are not omniscient and merely gambled they would get a desirable response from the Marines. What has actually happened should be seen as a failure for them and, in fact, their worst nightmare. Once again, they have managed to shit on the rug in their own living room.
I would guess the planners did hope for the outrage response - you can bet what was posted here was spoken aloud in the CA Mil Cmd discussions regards the response. Decisions don't come out of a vaccuum - even in the military - most of the time. I personally know and worked with 2 retired Army 3-Star Gens for 7 years with a company in the US. You don't know everything about me - and dismissing my experience with Arabs in SA is offensive and, indeed, disingenuous: The Arab jihadis we are facing are PRECISELY the Wahhabi shitheads I worked with for 4+ years in their sandbox.
The Gens I knew who had to make a tough decision ALWAYS asked for various people with specific expertise to a meeting, picked our brains, and then made their decision. That's how I came to know them - and their decision-making process. Both followed the same model. If the AlQ or whomever perp'ed this event though they would get the outrage response so that we would alienate further (we are, indeed, aliens to them in reasoning) the locals, well they failed. We both agree this is good, I believe.
If Wretchard's suggestions are right, then the decision to approach it with OS's wickedly wise plan was what the CA Mil Cmd distilled out of the input and brainstorming. I hope so, because it should make both of us very happy, I believe.
#16
Do you think the majority of the people present, yes mostly bystanders IMHO, knew what was coming and held a loya jirga and decided together to do what was done? No, of course not - and neither do I or CJ.
I dont think they knew that theyd get two humvees coming down the road that day, no. I do think that the ambush was planned, in fact i think its fairly obvious. Given that, i dont see why the mutilations couldnt have been planned. And I presume that in an AQ controlled city the folks who would have been out on the street would have been the ones who sympathized with AQ, and were in synch with their plans, not just a random group of bystanders. Do you think the guys who cheered the fall of the Saddam statue in Firdos square last April were representative of Baghdadis? If we can get a crowd together, why wouldnt AQ be able to?
I respect that you spent 4 years in Saudi. I think you will note that I generally respect your postings wrt to Saudi. I note that not all muslims are like Saudis. In this case Americans who have spent the last year in Iraq have strong opinions about whats going on in Iraq.
I dont doubt that the specifics have roots in the local culture - but I think its AQ digging down to get to those roots. Again its not something seen previously in Iraq in a year of occupation.
again, i think the Charles Johnson approach to the WOT is fundamentally at variance with the Den Beste approach - different in assumptions and in strategies. It is just at much at variance with the DB approach as the "its only law enforcement" approach is with the DB approach. The CJ approach is capable of undermining the DB approach, and for those of us who support the DB approach, it is therefore quite dangerous.
#17
I gotta agree with dotcom. When the Iraqi Hashemites were overthrown in the 50's, they got the same treatment I believe: murdered, dragged through the streets, and strung up. Hell, the third (?)Caliph, Othman, (one of the "just" ones, remember) was done in Falluja style, too.
I was musing about this in regards to Palestinian child sacrifice and the rise of the Moloch cult in the same exact geographical area millenia ago. Can memes really propagate in a culture for that long? Or is it something in the water? In either event, it makes you respect the prophets of Israel even more. To stand up to that kind of evil 2,500 years ago, with no precedents and only your faith to sustain you requires cojones grandes.
#18
Liberalhawk: I think that the Den Beste approach leads to the Charles Johnson approach. We cannot sustain the political will long enough to successfully "democritize" Dar al Islam. Did we democritize Japan and Germany? Yes! But they had already chosen modernity. Dar al Islam has not. I prefer the 11A5S strategy, which is identical to the British continental strategy of pre-Liberal times: play them off against each other until they're exhausted. I would argue that the decision by Liberal governments in Britain to abandon the continental strategy in favor of "principled diplomacy" and the Entente Cordiale led directly to WW1 and millions dead. I think that we face a similar decision now.
#19
LH - 2 Humvees? SUV's is what I saw. But that's just fluff...
"I do think that the ambush was planned, in fact i think its fairly obvious. Given that, i dont see why the mutilations couldnt have been planned. And I presume that in an AQ controlled city the folks who would have been out on the street would have been the ones who sympathized with AQ, and were in synch with their plans, not just a random group of bystanders."
Careful - you've just implicated much of Fallujah as AlQ and made a terrific case for the scorched earth, sew salt, response.
"i think the Charles Johnson approach to the WOT is fundamentally at variance with the Den Beste approach"
I disagree. In this case the point I mentioned, the brutality after the attack, was the ONLY point on which CJ varied from DB. And I don't agree they're at odds all the time. I read them both "religiously" (a term an atheist uses sparely!) - and to tell the truth, they don't overlap all that frequently in their commentary. DB analyses and proposes reasons why shit happens and carefully scrutinized possible courses of action -while- CJ reports and decries the hypocrisy and brutality of Paleos, the Press, and apologist orgs - connecting the dots between them. Not the same gig at all. There's little I've seen to support any regular variance between them. Present examples if you want to pursue this.
I find them both valuable as sources of different kinds of information. I would say that DB builds the toughest logic boxes more consistently than anyone else I've ever read. I certainly don't vary from him without due reasoning and consideration! I like my ass where it is and not handed to me on a platter! But, DB doesn't know everything. There are people here and other places who know more about Military Affairs and the WoT. I've seen outstanding posts in other places, including RB, which vary from DB on some points. I just try to make sense of it and give credit where due, that's all. Maybe it's expertise-specific, maybe it's another factor. But this is pointless - your opinion, my opinion, no big deal. DB rocks. So do other people.
Anyway - life is good, I think, because the CA Mil Cmd seems as though they are going to do this right... I will be glued to Fox and the 'Net for the next 24 hrs or until I collapse, I assure you! And, in sum, I don't think we disagree on much of substance regards a rational and methodical "fair" approach. I just hope they're wearing hobnail boots on this march and make the point in such a way that the Arabs get it. Permanently. And then rinse, repeat, everywhere in Iraq. Okay, I'll STFU. Cheers and Best Regs - keep kicking ass. When it's mine, I'll try to defend it, heh. 8-)
11A5S - You're way over MY head! Let's talk about the US Civil War so I have a prayer of keeping up with you!
#20
But they had already chosen modernity. Dar al Islam has not.
"Dar al islam" is not a monolith - clearly Turkey HAS chosen modernity, for example, and Indonesia is choosing it. I beleive Iraq will choose it also. The Saudis and the Pashtuns havent chosen it.
#21
"Careful - you've just implicated much of Fallujah as AlQ and made a terrific case for the scorched earth, sew salt, response."
No ive implicated the folks who mutilated the corpses as AQ. I dont know how well they represent the people Fallujah. Nor does anyone else outside of Iraq. I HOPE that Gens Sanchez, Kimmit et al have a pretty good idea, and if they dont I hope theyll find out pretty quick
CJ repeatedly posts pics of Pal and other ugliness routinely captioned with "Religion of Peace" or similar. He consistenly implies that this is a clash of civilizations,and that Islam IS the problem. His commentators dont just imply it, they explicitly state it. Which comments, and worse, he allows to stand, while banning lefty trolls. DB on the other hand is commited to the largely neo con idea that this is a war WITHIN Islamic civilization, and that Islam per se is not the problem, so much as the dictatorship and corruption of the Islamic world. Yes they dont often overlap - but the different assumptions are clear. CJ is not particularly clear about recommendations - One of the ways hes irresponsible, imho.
#23
Aceh is modern? The Anatolian highlands, where a mullah just got his ass handed to him for saying that men should pitch in more with chores are modern, too? The Romans made the same mistake, LH, thinking that they were safe as the cities, with their amphitheaters and aquaducts were hellenized or latinized. When the Germans and Arabs came, the people in the countryside did not fight for Rome or Byzantium.
Sorry dotcom. I'll just crawl off into my hole now...
#24
as for mistreatment of corpse and the local culture, water etc.
You want to know what the Nazis did with the corpses of their victims? how they pulled false teeth out for the gold? You want to hear what was done to corpses during pogroms in Russia and elsewhere??? No one part of the globe has a monopoly on barbarism. The point is to EMERGE from it, and how. As far as i can tell Iraqis are trying damned hard to emerge from it. Many people in Falujah are NOT. And AQ is doing its best to drag them all back to barbarism, as the Nazis tried to drag europe back.
Dot com do you ever read the pro-american Iraqi bloggers, like Healing iraq or Iraq the model? Look at the horrors these people go through, from disorder, crime and AQ terror. Would all of us be strong enough to keep pushing for civilization through that? I dont know.
#25
11a5s - the romans didnt hold elections. The majority of indons have voted against even "moderate" fundies. And turkey is rapidly modernizing and urbanizing. Rome also wasnt an industrial society - no, not even compared to Turkey it wasnt.
Sure someone can dig up stories of backwardness if they dig hard enough.
#26
dot com, BTW, DB refers to CJ as a "hot head". Hardly sounds like theyre on the same wavelength, huh? Ive NEVER called you a hot head, and yet you seem to think i personally attacked you. How can you not think that DB is personally attacking CJ?
#27
Yak, yak, yak. Tomahawk the bridge now. Start the siege of Fallujah now. Fuck them up NOW. These are fucking animals and scum; these aren't actual humans that can be reasoned with or pacified. Get a clue and scrape them from the earth NOW.
"...they monumentally misjudged the American character..."
Perhaps. But they sure as hell misjudged this American President's character, based on the actions of the last American President.
The important point to remember is that most of the people in Falluja are not "them". Most of the people of Falluja are essentially neutral. But if we treat all the people there as "them", then it will be self-fulfilling.
Remember the pictures we saw of mass demonstrations against the war here in the US? Did that represent the majority opinion within the US?
You saw pictures of swarms of people in Falluja acting in a beastly way, and you're seeing selective quotes in the news from residents of Falluja defiantly supporting what happened and threatening the US.
But does that mean that all the people there feel that way? I don't believe it does.
Please keep in mind that the news coverage we have been getting from Iraq has consistently been slanted to make it seem as if there was more opposition than there actually was. Why should today be any different
I am "semi-retired" and blogging is all I chose to do today. It's Friday and I believe you're at work. If wrong, my apologies. Regardless, actually, you post more shit and and hold more conversations with yourself than anyone I've ever seen. So a hat tip for prolific posts and my sincerest sympathies to your keyboard.
I was done with you. DB and CJ are yours to determine in your closed-loop thread. Let me know how it turns out.
BTW, yes, I do read some of the Iraqi bloggers - but mainly Zayed who seems the most open-minded of the lot. Many people have gone through the process of transitioning from barbarism to civility - every country in the West, in fact. One of my ancestors, via handed-down stories so I can't be certain how truthful they are, described being on the wrong side of the white man's technology advantage, in fact. I agree that no individual knows what they will or won't, could or couldn't, do - until the moment arrives. That's the real test and where so many either fail by lack of gumption / nerve or lack of principles. Zayed has my best wishes. The innocents of Fallujah have my best wishes, as well.
11A5S - No! Don't go away! Shit! Ignore me!
Grrrrrrr... TURKEY...
You can lay a LOT of the "post-war" (a prematurely employed term if I ever saw one) deaths of American troops in Iraq for the last YEAR directly at Turkey's front door. One front, thanks to those gutless betraying Modern Muslim assholes CREATED the unpacified Sunni Triangle situation we face today. Hammer - Meet No Anvil. Fuck Turkey and all apologists for them, forever.
On this point you can save any and all "breath" you might wish to expend on their behalf. All of our dead soldiers which are attributable to any aspect of the attacks emanating from the Sunni Traingle, Ba'athist / AlQ / whatEVER, belong on Turkey's tab. IMHO, they will never be trustworthy again.
President Hamid Karzai has increasingly asserted himself by replacing six provincial governors in the last three months: Takhar, Badakhshan, Samangan, Kunduz, Baghlan, Logar, Zabul and Kandahar have seen new governors, preceded by the deployment of the PRTs, a mix of US and international troops as well as elements from the Afghan National Army (ANA), the National Police and representatives of the central government. Despite sporadic attacks by hostile elements, the Kabul-Kandahar Highway has been asphalted within one year, bringing down the travel time between the two points from 15 to less than five hours. Law-enforcement, at least within and around Kabul, has improved in the presence of 6,500-strong ISAF contingent. Continued US expression of support for the government has led to preparations for elections later this year. Voter registration is extremely slow with less then 15 percent voters registered so far throughout the country but the process is moving ahead despite many hurdles. The currency reform, one of the most important ingredients of economic restructuring seems to have succeeded and the value of the Afghani is holding.
The Northern Alliance has gradually been disempowered and according to official sources in Kabul is not as powerful as it was just a year ago. The launching of the DDR (Disarmament, Demobilisation and Reintegration) campaign may not have done as well as expected, but it too is going ahead. Powerful warlords still pose the biggest challenge to the DDR process as well as to the authority of Karzai: Ismail Khan holds sway over Herat, Farah, Ghor and Badghis; Hazrat Ali, the major component of the US-led anti-terror war, still lords over vast stretches in eastern Afghanistan including Paktia, Paktika, Kunar, Ningarhar, Leghman and Nuristan. He commands some 20,000 people in a region suspected to be the abode of OBL, Mulla Omar and Hekmetyar; Mohammad Atta has emerged as the strongest warlord in the Balkh and Samangan provinces after the decimation of General Rasheed Dostumâs forces, who has been restricted to his native Jauzjan province; Although Gul Agha Sherzai, ex-Kandahar governor, has been neutralised through a ministerial position in Kabul, his brother is still believed to be calling the shots in the Kandahar region, and âwaiting for the appropriate time to strike back into powerâ; Marshal Qasim Faheem retains his grip over his militia, large chunks of which together with heavy guns and artillery are concentrated in Kunduz, Baghlan and Takhar; Gen Daud, officially the northeastern corps commander of Kunduz, Badakhshan, Takhar and Baghlan, the young Tajik still stands out as a regional figure that can defy the central government any time.
Posted by: Paul Moloney ||
04/02/2004 1:08:06 AM ||
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Leading tribes of South Waziristan Agency namely Mehsud and Barki Thursday asked the foreign elements and their harbourers in the agency to surrender themselves to the Qaumi Lashkar in order to hand them over to the Political authorities. The Government has assured that they would not be extradited to any other country. The suspected elements if refused to surrender themselves voluntarily, then the Qaumi Lashkar will take its action for their arrests. These views were expressed by the tribal chiefs of Mehsud and Barki tribes while addressing various tribal jirgas in Makeen, Ladha, Saam and Kani Garam areas of the agency. The tribal chiefs held Al-Qaeda responsible for the destruction of Afghanistan whereas the Wana operation launched due to differences between the concerned tribes. They said, Mehsud tribe will not allow any terrorist or foreign national to use their areas for carrying out subversive activities. They also expressed great resentment over the killing of naib tehsildars during custody by the captors and said, it never happened in the entire history of the tribal areas.
Posted by: Dan Darling ||
04/02/2004 1:00:05 AM ||
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The explosions and gunfire that have shaken this Central Asian nation this week appear to signal the return of a once-crippled radical group closely affiliated with al Qaeda that is devoted to toppling the secular government, Uzbek security officials and foreign diplomats said Thursday.
"Can't twist turbans in South Wazoo anymore. Let's go home and blow something up!"
Although President Islam Karimov initially attributed the unrest to Hizb ut-Tahrir, investigators have backed away from that theory. Instead, they increasingly are focusing on the Islamic Movement of Uzbekistan or IMU, a paramilitary force that fought alongside the Taliban and al Qaeda in Afghanistan in 2001 only to be devastated by a U.S. bombing campaign that killed its military commander, Juma Namangani.
That was my thought from the first. Hizb was my second. They try and stay away from overt violence, merely calling for it.
If the IMU did orchestrate this week's attacks, it would indicate the group has managed to reconstitute itself into a dangerous force, despite initial claims by Karimov and U.S. officials that it had been destroyed. A non-American diplomat in Tashkent estimated Thursday that the IMU has 800 active members in Uzbekistan enlisted from the ranks of Muslims bristling at the repression of Karimov's authoritarian government. "I'm almost certain it's the Islamic Movement of Uzbekistan," said the diplomat, who declined to be identified to avoid offending the government. "They're regrouping and restrengthening. They have a lot of young male recruits who weren't part of the organization at the time of Afghanistan. And the recruiting ground is the people who have been tortured and abused."
The wave of violence that has left at least 44 people dead extended to a fifth day Thursday when a female bomber killed one person in the ancient city of Bukhara. Attackers, many of them women, have largely concentrated on police rather than civilian or foreign targets. Uzbek security officials said they believe the militants had been preparing for the assaults for six months or longer, but their plan was put in motion prematurely when they accidentally set off a bomb in a hide-out in Bukhara on Sunday, killing at least eight members of their cell and an infant. "They used the same explosives they used in '99," said one security official who declined to be named out of concern for his safety. "They haven't invented anything new."
What is new is the use of suicide bombings. "It's the first time this has happened in Central Asia," said a terrorism investigator at Uzbekistan's National Security Service who also spoke on condition of anonymity. Such tactics, he noted, were previously restricted to such places as Israel and Russia. "Now we face it." And never in modern times has this former Soviet republic and newly minted U.S. ally experienced a week quite like this one. No sooner was the blood washed away from one scene of carnage than ambulances were rushing to another. "Absolutely innocent people died there," Narmat Karayev,58, a retired aviation police officer, said outside Children's World store in Tashkent, where a suicide bomber killed herself and two police officers Monday. "What they've done here, I consider it fascism."
Uzbek officials said they saw no direct link between the events in Pakistan and the violence here this week, adding that the regenerating IMU retains its base either in Pakistan or Afghanistan. The diplomat said it appeared the IMU might be trying to kindle a revolution. Asked if Tashkent were akin to Iran's capital just before the 1979 Islamic revolution, he said, "No, but we might be in Tehran 1977." Unlike in Iran, Islam in Uzbekistan after seven decades of Communist rule has largely been a moderate force. Few women in cities wear head scarves, mosques do not broadcast the call to prayer, beards are rare and alcohol is plentiful. But discontent has spread in this land of 25 million people along with economic hardship. Some specialists estimate that urban unemployment exceeds 40 percent, and possibly 60 percent among city dwellers under 30. The Chorsu bazaar near Children's World offers a tableau of the hardscrabble life endured by many Uzbeks. Every day women spread sheets and sit on the asphalt trying to sell disparate goods -- toothpaste, shoes, bras, razors, eggs, pens and a laundry detergent called Barf. "You need to study our economy to understand the place," grumbled one trader who would not give her name. "See how people live?"
Got somebody managing the economy, don't they?
The adversity has muted public anger at the terrorist acts, with some Uzbeks suggesting the government had it coming. "Karimov himself is guilty of the whole thing," said Vladimir, 28, who makes $70 a month working in two factories. "He led the country to this point." Uzbeks, Vladimir added, regard the police "with disgust" because "for a little thing they can put you in jail." The suicide bomber outside Children's World on Monday morning apparently targeted patrolling police officers during a shift change. Nilufar Yusumetova and other store clerks were sweeping the sidewalk when the blast occurred a couple of yards away. The sight left her shocked a few days later. "The leg was right there," she said, pointing. "Her head was over there. Her body was here."
Nasiba Djamalova was inside fixing a window display when the glass shattered and something hit her leg. She thought it was a brick. Only later, she said, did she learn that she had been struck by the charred and decapitated head of the suicide bomber. "If I'd known," Djamalova said, "I would have fainted."
"In fact, I may do it now."
Across town, at an apartment complex in Yalangacha few miles from Karimov's residence on the city's outskirts, residents said militants who battled police on Tuesday made a point of trying not to target civilians. One resident said a female militant followed her into the apartment building but did not try to chase her into her flat, choosing instead to blow herself up. "She didn't mean harm to the people," said the woman, who like other tenants declined to give her name after police told them to stop speaking to visiting journalists. "She didn't try to open the doors. She didn't do anything to us." But the militants did kill one resident, possibly by accident, a death that the government has not acknowledged. Shakir Muslimov, 34, wearing a new suit, emerged from his door at the wrong moment and was shot to death by a pistol-wielding militant who might have mistaken him for a police officer, according to his brother Shevket. "He ran right into them," Shevket said. "He just came out by accident." Several other women blew themselves up over the course of the next seven or eight hours, neighbors said, while male militants were shot by police. By day's end, 20 suspected militants and three police officers had been killed, the Uzbek Interior Ministry said. "They were shooting back at the military," said a 30-year-old woman wearing a frayed blue robe and worn pink plastic sandals. "This was a real war."
Posted by: Dan Darling ||
04/02/2004 12:56:34 AM ||
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#1
"a laundry detergent called Barf"...
um, wouldn't Barf be what she'd be trying to wash OUT of her clothes after being hit by a flying decapitated head?
Taslima should marry Rushdie
Sarerahe in Nawa-e-Waqt stated that Bangladeshâs apostate writer Taslima Nasreen who had become a traitor to Pakistan by writing in favour of the Hindu community now wanted to end her exile in the West and buy a house in Calcutta in India where she thought that people loved her. Sarerahe thought that Indian Muslims in Calcutta would hate her as much as the Muslims of Bangladesh and she would not be safe there. The best thing for her to do would be to go back to the West and marry Salman Rushdie and live with him.
Religious leaders are good!
Writing in Jang, Saeed Siddiqi stated that politics could not be separated from religion or it will go wrong. He quoted the Quaid at Sibi darbar saying that that Pakistanâs democracy would be based on the golden principles of Islam. The writer added that most clerical leaders of India did not side with the Quaid although all of them â like Maulana Ataullah Shah Bukhari, Maulana Abul Kalam Azad and Hussain Ahmad Madni â were pious leaders of great integrity. After 1947, Pakistan accepted all the clerics who had sided with Congress and has given them the respect they deserved.
Sectarian conflict in Gilgit
According to daily Din, shops closed down in Gilgit city after preachers from both sides of the sectarian divide exhorted their followers to attack each other. One boy was shot dead while four men were wounded during a shootout that ensued. The incident was one of a series taking place in Gilgit. Paramilitary force was called out.
Thirty-nine honour-killings in thirty days
According to Jang, Sindh killed 39 people in one month under karo-kari (suspicion of dishonour). In the month February, rural Sindh saw 39 murders out of which 27 were women. Out of the 27 women done to death, 13 were killed by their husbands while the rest were killed by brothers and fathers. The murdered women were not given normal burial. Their corpses remained unwashed and they were buried in the desert sand without any trace of the grave. In one case a brother killed his sister and buried her in sand while she was still alive.
Quranic verses in textbooks
According to Nawa-e-Waqt, National Assembly saw the opposition walk out when the education minister said that certain Quranic verses were removed from an 11th class textbook of biology. Later it was said that the verses that were removed related to Jews and Christians as permanent enemies of the Muslims and the obligation of jihad on all Muslims. All the opposition parties including the PPP staged a walkout while the MMA ladies staged a protest in front of the Speakerâs chair.
Posted by: Paul Moloney ||
04/02/2004 12:51:58 AM ||
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Out of the 27 women done to death, 13 were killed by their husbands while the rest were killed by brothers and fathers. The murdered women were not given normal burial.
I know you Freeper bastards are going to make a big pitch out of this one small article. But IT'S A DIFFERENT CULTURE WITH A DIFFERENT SET OF VALUES!
#4
What an ass you are,AG.
I guess slavery in the Sudan,with the attendant 12 year-old sex slaves is ok(according to you).After all it is a different culture.
#7
BD - So you're saying it's Mucky on Meds? To be honest, it was the CAPS screaming that made me respond. I truly despise entire sentences in caps. I'll go take my meds, now. ;-)
#10
A "freeper", as I understand it, is a person associated with "freerepublic.com", a group of very conservative folks who see the world a certain way. The term is used as a perjorative by bloggers on the Left to indicate their disdain for conservative values -- if you believe that Bush is right (about anything), or if you're against gay marriage, etc, you must be a freeper and therefore not worthy of further discussion or notice.
Anyone who knows better, feel free to correct me.
Posted by: Steve White ||
04/02/2004 11:53 Comments ||
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#11
Dr Steve, your description brought tears to my eyes - 'tis perfect!
#14
Isn't it convenient that any husband that's tired of his wife, for any reason, can simply kill her, declare it an "honor" killing, and go on with his life, with little possibility of prosecution. I've seen nothing written about having to produce evidence, or the need to convince anyone of such infidelity, just 'whack and stack'. Same for the killing of sisters and daughters. Of course, marrying outside the "faith" is automatically grounds for murder. "AntiGum" of course accepts this without question, simply because "it's another culture". MacArthur put an end to this sort of crap in Japan. It looks like the United States needs to change the culture of another group of 12th-Century retards as well.
As for "freeper", it's grown to mean anyone who isn't a card-carrying, lobotomized, LLL nutcase.
Posted by: Old Patriot ||
04/02/2004 12:39 Comments ||
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#15
It doesn't describe me at all dammit!!
Where's the part about being a warmongering knuckle-dragger!? Where's the part about being a homophobic redneck!? What about the part about being against affirmative action makes you a damned biggoted racist!? I demand satisfaction!! This is obvious libel against my good name!!!
#16
I happen to beleve in universal Right and Wrong which transends 'culture'. The taking of another life for 'convience' is wrong.
I find it truely amazing that the Left, which claims to care for the environment, animal rights, against capital punishment, etc.. would condone the taking of another human life for 'convience'.
#17
CF, the problem is the far-left does not believe in 'good' and 'evil' or right/wrong.......only circumstances and shades of grey - the latter of which can be rationalized anyway they see fit.
#18
I have hope that honor killings will stop soon. Other important traditions are already falling by the wayside in Ummah.
How do I get to be a Freeper?
Posted by: Super Hose ||
04/02/2004 15:04 Comments ||
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#19
im not antigum. i like gum.
steve thanks for telling me what freeper is. im find some other sites and am make friends there and they say that a lot. some jack ass on one of them calling me extremist but i have friends that defend me. antiwar it good to see you again.
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Maulana Samiul Haqâs faction of the Jamiat-e-Ulema Islam is devising a plan to widen the existing membership of Mutahidda Majlis-e-Amal, a six-party religious alliance, in order to cut into the influence of the two major parties â Jamaat-e Islami and rival JUI-F â it alleges have made the alliance a virtual hostage. The move comes in the wake of simmering tensions in the MMA between the four smaller parties and the two bigger ones. The fact that the 4 âsmaller partiesâ barely got any votes is a big reason they are being ignored by the JI and JUI-F
âWe want to see in our ranks many of those parties and groups that were part of the Milli Yakjehti Council (MYC) but were not included in the MMAâs political alliance format,â the deputy secretary general of JUI-S, Mufti Usman Yar Khan, told TFT.
Shouldn't that be "Yarrrr! Khaaaaan!"
The MYC was set up by dozens of religious and sectarian parties on March 24th, 1995 ostensibly to create sectarian harmony. Instead, the sectarian groups used the MYC platform to get their activists released, most of whom were arrested in police crackdowns against sectarian terrorism, particularly in the Punjab. At the time, one Sipah member of provincial assembly, now a banned party, was a minister in the coalition government in the Punjab. While the PPP government went along with the MYC initiative to bring sectarian harmony, the groups used the device to their own ends. The succesor to the MYC was the Pakistan-Afghan Defence Council, which didnât really go anywhere.
The successor to the Pak-Afghan Defense Council is MMA, even though the Defense Council remains in existence...
Some insiders say that at the time the Sipah-e-Sahabaâs strategy ran afoul of some of its members and resulted in the emergence of the hardliner Lashkar-e-Jhangvi. Police officials say the SSP created the impression of a rift in order to put on itself a political gloss while getting the LJ to keep doing sectarian terrorism. âThis was a good ploy. The SSP was trying to get out of the shadow of JUI-F and wanted its own independent political presence. This meant getting a splinter group to do the violent work,â says a former intelligence officer with long experience of investigating sectarian cases.
That's pretty much a standard pattern: a "legitimate" face, and then the hard boyz who can do the real work with plausible deniability. Only in this case it's a three-layer cake, with JUI-Fazl in the gummint, Sipah ranting and raving and getting itself banned, and Lashkar e-Jhangvi providing the hard boyz.
In many ways the rift on the Shia side was more genuine. The militants of the banned Sipah-e-Mohammad Pakistan (SMP) turned against their chief Murid Abbas Yazdani for his conciliatory tone and accused him of compromising on fundamental beliefs. The new leader Ghulam Raza Naqvi, who always stayed away from the MYC, repudiated the SMPâs agreement on the code of ethics, which declared Khilafat-e-Rasheda and resurrection of Imam Mehdi as part of the faith.
Khilafat-e-Rasheda refers to the establishment of the Caliphate. They're arguing over not only how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, but what color turbans they wear...
These splinter groups formed an alliance with other likeminded militants, supported by a large numbers of madrassahs across the country. The two warring factions on both sides engaged in fierce sectarian battle but the Shia groups slowly retreated in the face of Deobandi-sectarian onslaught. The late nineties saw major attacks on Shia targets in Karachi and major urban centres of Punjab. Thatâs because the Deobandi militias were allowed to operate as small armies since they were fighting in Afghanistan and Kashmir, and the sectarian groups recruited directly from them. The Shias werenât used in those conflicts, and so their groups were cracked down on by the state.
But the JUI-S is trying to play its hand cleverly. The party seems to be moving towards getting other groups in by going through the âjihadiâ groups. âWe do not reckon Lashkar-e-Taiba and banned Jaish-e-Mohammad as enemy organisations and consider them as patriotic as anyone else in Pakistan,â JUI-Sâ Khan told TFT. Interestingly, police and intelligence officers are very clear about the sectarian linkages of Jaish. The group is also accused of trying to mount attacks on General Pervez Musharraf. JUI-S sources say party leaders have met with Dawa leader Hafiz Mohammad Saeed recently in Lahore where the proposal of pulling the group into the Alliance has been discussed. The JUI-S leaders have also held meetings with former chief of the Inter-Services Intelligence, Lt-Gen (Retd) Hameed Gul and discussed the issue of expansion with him. âYes, our leaders have met Hameed Gul Sahib to discuss some important matters relating to national politics,â a senior party leader confirmed to TFT. Khan even hints at the possibility of a âdirect or indirectâ presence of General Gul in the future MMA setup. âWe want to make the alliance more viable and acceptable for more religious groups and General Gul is a patriot who has rendered enormous services for the Islamic cause,â Khan says.
I'm not sure what the diffo is between a "patriot" and a "lunatic" in Pakland, if any...
The Sami-ul Haq group is not happy with the lukewarm reaction of the MMA to the military operation in Wana and says the Alliance has betrayed its voters who gave it a landslide victory in the October 2002 elections. âMaulana Fazlur Rehman and Qazi Hussain Ahmed are avoiding launching an effective agitation against the government, because they have made a lucrative deal with General [Pervez] Musharrafâs regime,â Khan says. âMaulana Fazlur Rehman deliberately went to the United Kingdom to avoid reacting to the military operation against the mujahideen while Qazi [Hussain Ahmed] Sahib thinks it is appropriate to see his pictures in newspapers while addressing negligible number of people,â a senior JUI-S leader says. Poor Sami, if he had gotten enough votes, he could have been offered a similar deal, as it is, he is having to attack Fazl and Qazi from the âRightâ.
It is not clear whether Hafiz Saeed of al-Dawa has accepted the JUI-S proposal but the latter which claims the formation of the Taliban regime in Afghanistan along with its rival Fazlur Rehman faction, is optimistic about Dawaâs inclusion. There are also elements within the MMA who want to open the Alliance to the entry of the banned Millat-e-Islamia Pakistan (formerly Sipah-e-Sahaba) of late Azam Tariq, but the Shia element in the religious alliance is resisting these moves.
That might be an indication they have some sense of self-preservation...
The Tehreek-e-Islami (now banned) of Allama Sajid Naqvi had warned of quitting the MMA when its leadership had proposed to include Maulana Azam Tariq in 2002. Tariq was gunned down in Islamabad last October along with four companions. âWe cannot accept the inclusion of these fanatics in the MMA fold. But if they do find their way in, we will walk out,â Allama Hasan Turabi of Tehreek-e-Islami says. Many analysts believe the JUI-S wants to make another Milli Yekjehti Council out of the MMA.
... thereby turning it a full circle, back to its roots.
Such a diffuse entity would enable smaller parties to gang up on the JI and the JUI-F.
... whether they actually got any votes or not.
Leaders of the rival JUI-F, however, say they will not allow changing the MMAâs existing nomenclature. âAll the major religious groups are represented in the present format, which also reflects sectarian harmony,â a JUI-F leader told TFT, adding: âAny move to change its present configuration will be disastrous.â The Jamaat corroborates this strategy. âThe present format cannot be changed,â says a JI leader and denies the two major parties have made the alliance hostage. âEvery component in the alliance has equal rights and no one supersedes the other,â he says. "So sit down and shut up."
Posted by: Paul Moloney ||
04/02/2004 12:37:31 AM ||
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A multi-volume chronology and reference guide set detailing three years of the Mexican Drug War between 2010 and 2012.
Rantburg.com and borderlandbeat.com correspondent and author Chris Covert presents his first non-fiction work detailing
the drug and gang related violence in Mexico.
Chris gives us Mexican press dispatches of drug and gang war violence
over three years, presented in a multi volume set intended to chronicle the death, violence and mayhem which has
dominated Mexico for six years.
Rantburg was assembled from recycled algorithms in the United States of America. No
trees were destroyed in the production of this weblog. We did hurt some, though. Sorry.
