A couple who forced a plane to land in Bermuda after they attacked cabin crew who stopped them having sex are facing a $34,000 bill for their pleasure. And they run the risk of national shame back in England after UK tabloid The Sun ran the story with an appeal for the public to name and shame them.
It said stunned passengers watched in horror as the randy couple attacked cabin crew after being told to return to their seats. They shouted abuse and spat as they grappled with the British Airways staff who forced them back into their business class seats. And despite being restrained with plastic handcuffs, the pilot decided he had no choice but to divert the 777 jet to Bermuda.
The "sex rage" incident, as The Sun described it, began when they started drinking heavily on the ten-hour flight from Gatwick to Kingston, Jamaica on Monday. They joined the "mile-high club" in one of the loos. But after their noisy passion was overheard by flight staff they were ordered out â and went berserk.
A passenger said: "They were asked politely to return to their seats but went ballistic. They were shouting vile abuse and spitting at staff." Another said: "The captain tried to calm them down but they were just as abusive to him."
The couple, who were booked on a two-week holiday, were held by Police in Bermuda and on Wednesday put on a flight back to Gatwick â where they were arrested. Now the pair from Luton, England face being charged with air rage â and the £34,000 cost of diverting the plane.
Bermuda Airport manager Jim Howes said: "It's always the joke among us pilots, and I am a pilot, about have you joined the mile high club?"
Asked about the $34,000 cost of the tryst Mr. Howes said: "I just hope it was worth it."
Posted by: john ||
12/13/2005 14:54 Comments ||
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#2
I really don't understand the rationale behind the mile-high club thing. Planes are just glorified buses, except they're less comfortable. Getting down to business in a airplane lavatory is grimy and uncomfortable. Some people are just lacking a little common sense.
#1
Stanley made all the right noises about "doing his part for society". To the socialists, this is music to their ears - he was basically swearing his fealty to their worldview. Four lives have no value when compared to the conversion of another into their politics, their religion. Utopia Akbar!
#9
The Austrians should have paid heed to RJ Reynolds' wisdom. In 1911 Reynolds considered naming his first cigarette brand after Kaiser Wilhelm, but he ultimately changed his mind and called his cigarettes "Camels." Reynolds said he hesitated to name the product after a living figure because 'you never know what the damn fool might do.'"
Posted by: Fred ||
12/13/2005 21:10 Comments ||
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#12
With the million + dollars per year it takes to support death row appeals... we could have built the Tookster his very own stadium. You do the math. Thank you criminal court system and slime ball lawyers for allowing this piece of fecal matter to live on for nearly 30 years AFTER his conviction.
NEW YORK (Reuters) - An apartment building collapsed on Tuesday after an explosion in New Jersey, police said, and CBS radio reported there were casualties.
A police spokesman in Bergenfield, New Jersey, had no further details of the incident, which sent up a large cloud of black smoke that could be seen from across the river in Manhattan. He could not confirm that there were casualties.
"It was an apartment building, unknown origin for the explosion," the spokesman said.
Television footage from the scene showed what appeared to be a building of at least three stories with firefighters battling to put out a fire.
#2
That what they always say. It is always a terrorist work accident gas leak.
Posted by: john ||
12/13/2005 14:52 Comments ||
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#3
actually it was a gas leak - they were digging for an underground tank removal (all per Fox), had called for utility markout, and either mismarked or mishit a gasline.... it was smelled before the boom
Posted by: Frank G ||
12/13/2005 17:32 Comments ||
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George Michael claims Princess Diana wanted to have sex with him....yea, I think she wanted me too.
She hit on me six or seven times, too, but I turned her down...
The singer has hinted his relationship with the beautiful royal was never the same since he turned her down, nor should it have been. The star, who was left devastated when the princess was killed in a car crash in 1997, revealed: "There were certain things that happened that made it clear she was very attracted to me. There was no question.
"Whenever we were in the same room, she used to take her pants off and point south. I always found that very touching..."
"I think we clicked in a way that was a little bit intangible, and it probably had more to do with our upbringing than anything else. She was very like a lot of women who've been attracted to me because they see something non-threatening."
"That routine just makes them go into heat..."
The singer, who denies he ever slept with Diana because he "knew it would have been a disastrous thing to do", admits he feels ashamed as he should be for avoiding the princess.
"Our love is not to be!"
"Oh... ummm... George! My heart is broken!"
"Farewell, my love!"
"See ya. Send the pool boy in on your way out, okay?"
He told Britain's Independent Arts and Books magazine: "I feel guilty and stupid because she did really like me as a person, and I tended to shy away from calling her because I thought she must have so many people calling her for all the wrong reasons. I knew she was so suspicious of people by then, so I would almost treat her the way I know some people treat me. I would presume it was an intrusion to call, when actually you know they're lonely and would love to hear a friendly voice."
"Sven, would you hand me the phone?"
"Of course, my sweet!"
Posted by: Howard UK ||
12/13/2005 9:27 Comments ||
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#2
What's the elasticity of CD sales with respect to sludge?
Posted by: Curt Simon ||
12/13/2005 9:41 Comments ||
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#3
Michael, whose real name is Georgios Kyriacos Panayiotou, told CNN in 1998 (a year after Diana's death): "I want to say that I have no problem with people knowing that I'm in a relationship with a man right now. I have not been in a relationship with a woman for almost 10 years." To be spouting this Diana garbage seven years later suggests that his publicist is every bit as sleazy as he is.
Yesterday I heard that UK police were going to summons Charles for more questions regarding Diana's death. I found myself wondering if it was possible that it was a hit ordered by Islamists against Dodi Fayed for dating a infidel, or to send a message to his dad, the owner of Harrod's.
A case of three headless bodies that shook Sanaâa is finally referred to prosecution. The three Palestinians suspected of the murder finally confessed their crimes. The murders that took place in the middle of last November included a Palestinian citizen, his wife and her friend. During investigations the criminals explained how they hosted the three victims in their house, and then beat them to death, using sharp tools. They then beheaded them and threw their limbs in different parts of Sanaâa streets.
Brilliant. Simply brilliant. No one would ever know...
Reasons for this hideous crime are still unknown although the investigations suspect that it was a personal grudge.
Inspector! How do you do it?
A special source in the specialized penal prosecution told Yemen Times that they received the case on the 7th of December. The investigations will be completed within the few next days, and then it will be handed over to the specialized penal court.
Posted by: Fred ||
12/13/2005 00:00 ||
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Authorities said yesterday that the case of a man and his wife who were allegedly beaten by members of the religious police is still under investigation, Arab News has learned. They also emphasized the requirement that members of the Commission for Promotion of Virtue and Prevention of Vice to wear identifying badges.
"Bodges? We don' need no steenkin' bodges"
According to reports, the undercover officers, who were driving an unmarked white sedan, thought the couple were not married and followed them home to arrest them. The man filed a report to the Riyadh Police Department two days ago saying that he was approached by two men in a white car that grabbed him and assaulted him as he got out of his car near his home. He said that the car the two men were riding in was a private one, and not the well-recognized GMC Suburban with the logo of the religious police on it.
"The Suburban was in the shop, so we used Habib's car. It's got a killer stereo system..."
He also said that he asked his wife to quickly run inside their building for her own protection, but that the men ran after her grabbing her abaya before she finally managed to get into one of the neighborsâ apartment after screaming for help. The man who filed a case at the police station is filing assault and abuse of authority charges against the religious police.
Sheikh Ibrahim Al-Ghaith, the head of the commission, said yesterday that all field members that work for the commission should wear their official nametags when on duty to enable the public to identify them. âWe as members of the commission must abide by the regulations and directives set by the leaders of the country because we are accountable to them and the public,â Sheikh Al-Ghaith said. âWe have rights. Citizens have rights. Residents have rights. And everyone should respect that rights.â
Everyone has rights. Some people's rights are more respected than others.
He said that sometimes people exaggerate stories about members of the commission, which are later proven to be false. Al-Ghaith did not deny however that there were shortcomings from some of the commissionâs members. âThe members of the commission are humans.
"Some are subhumans, in fact..."
"They are like anybody else who make mistakes,â he said. He said that if it was proved that a member of the commission was involved in any wrongdoing he would be punished at once. Al-Ghaith also said that by visibly displaying their nametags, members could differentiate themselves from other pious people who offer advice in public areas, but are not authorized to go beyond that. He said wearing a uniform by the members of the commission was not being considered because the official nametag would suffice.
"Oh sure - we're pious! But we have badges, so we can beat the crap out of you too."
#3
I am reminded of an interesting tale of some years ago.
A large and brutish friend of mind, who lived in a bad part of town, got a knock on his door from two FBI agents who were seeking to serve a warrant on his next-door neighbor. When he opened his door, the two tried to force their way inside.
He was a golden-gloves runner up in the State before he had studied karate for years from a very skilled Sifu.
Well, after all was said and done, my friend was standing before a confused and distraught judge, who was more than prepared to throw the book at him for putting two FBI agents into the hospital for several months.
The ironic part was so ironic, that the judge again asked the same questions of the agents as had been asked by the prosecutor.
"Are you *sure* that you hadn't identified yourselves when you pushed through the door???"
"Well, no, you honor", they both said. "We had our wallets kind of half-open and I had just said, 'F...', and that's all I got out."
Thus forced into a corner by two very honest FBI agents, the judge could not convict my friend of a felony. But he did find him guilty of a misdemeanor, for which he was sentenced not, as is traditional, "for a year less a day", but in his case, "for a year less an hour."
All told, there are several good points to that story.
Posted by: Frank G ||
12/13/2005 10:56 Comments ||
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#5
these religious police should have to wear identifiable uniforms. They band together tough, but no doubt would whimper like little girls if caught alone. The unis would make it much easier, and show how little support they actually have among the populace when they're caught alone and beaten to pulps.
Posted by: Frank G ||
12/13/2005 10:59 Comments ||
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#6
Everyone please welcome Pappy to Rantburg's moderating team. He's bringing some much needed West Coast hip-hop flair, and may even be replacing me since I keep getting sent to see Muffler Man today. As you can see he mods in a up-to-the-minute stylish pearl gray.
This is a major problem with police in this country. They seem to think that they can force their way into a private dwelling without a warrant and the victim cannot defend himself.
How many felonies do you think occur because someone just claims to be a police officer?
Your friend should not have been even charged with anything.
#8
Radley Balko has been following the case of a man who is on death row in Virginia for shooting and killing a cop who mistakenly broke into his apartment while on a raid searching for a different man.
#9
I've been following that one, Sea. Where is Jesse, Al, anyone else? The ACLU? It appears that after the shooting the police found , this was in their initial report, no drugs. 24 hours later the report noted a bag of marjaweenie. This is a true travesty. Glen Reynolds has a lot on this case.
Posted by: Deacon Blues ||
12/13/2005 14:38 Comments ||
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#10
Seafarious,
Mississippi, not Virginia.
Posted by: Eric Jablow ||
12/13/2005 15:47 Comments ||
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CCTV footage from the Buncefield oil depot could hold the key to what triggered the inferno after detectives discovered that security film survived the intense heat. The Health and Safety Executive (HSE) is due to investigate the causes of the blaze once the fires have been extinguished and the site is accessible to forensic experts, a spokesman said yesterday.
But accident experts said that evidence suggested that the explosions at the oil depot, which are still being considered as accidental, are likely to have been caused by sparks from an electrical fault that ignited a fuel leak. Ivan Vince, an independent safety and environmental specialist at ASK Consultants, said that the size of the explosions was puzzling. âFrom my point of view as a combustibility specialist I would have not have expected such a spectacular explosion at a depot with fuel being stored properly in unpressurised containers.â Dr Vince said that it was likely that a slow leak of petrol had evaporated over time to form a large cloud of flammable vapour that had then ignited. Witnesses said that they smelt petrol fumes and were trying to locate the source when the explosion occurred, he said.
The airborne fuel, once ignited, could have set off a chain reaction that led to the blaze in 20 fuel tanks, each containing millions of litres of fuel, he said. âTo me, whatâs interesting is how this fire and cloud could initially have made such a big bang. In an open space you would expect a flash of fire which would have burned out quickly, not a big explosion, so the flames must have spread to the tanks very quickly in order to cause the scale of the fire we have seen.â
HSE guidelines state that petrol of the kind stored at the depot is a highly flammable liquid that can give off flammable vapour, even at very low temperatures. âPetrol vapour does not disperse easily and may also travel long distances. It tends to sink to the lowest possible level and may collect in tanks, cavities, drains, pits, or other enclosed areas, where there is little air movement.â
Dr Vince said that another likely explanation for an explosion was that in such flammable conditions a small fire could have spread undetected to larger storage facilities or a pipeline like a lit touchpaper.
âThere are many possible different ignition sources,â he said. âIt could have come from anywhere given the amount of fuel involved. It is possible that we will never find out what really happened.â While much of the forensic evidence is expected to have perished in the blaze, police and HSE investigators are relying on the accounts of staff and oil tanker drivers who were at the site moments before the tanks erupted, soon after 6am.
One driverâs description of a sudden shutdown of the depotâs electrical system, just before the first explosion, suggests that it could have been sparked by an electrical fire. In addition, officers now hope that surviving CCTV footage could hold vital clues. Frank Whiteley, Chief Constable of Hertfordshire, said: âA lot of forensic evidence is going to have been destroyed which makes this job difficult.â
Despite howls in some circles (right up to the four star level), the âthreatâ from Chinaâs 60 or so submarines seems very limited. Rarely are there more than 4-6 boats at sea at any time, often there are none at all, and a number of units (the Han nuke boats, for example), seem never to go to sea at all. Chinaâs Type 092 SSBN Changzheng, laid down in 1978 and commissioned in 1987 (NATO designation: Xia class) seems to be a maritime basket case. Reportedly it has never operated outside of Chinese territorial waters, and has never made an operational cruise. In addition, by some accounts it has been in âoverhaulâ since 1995. Apparently, when Chinese subs do go to sea, the usually do so accompanied by one or more surface units. This suggests a certain lack of confidence in the effectiveness of Chinese boats. China is trying to improve this situation, and has been particularly vigorous over the last few years. But so far, results are meager.
It's tough to steal operational capability. I just wonder how much of the PLAN/PLAAF is equally robust.
EFL - another shot at the camel's nose under the tent
The European Commission proposed new rules to oversee the content of programmes screened on television and over the Web on Tuesday, ushering in a key change to how productions can be financed. The "television without frontiers" proposals will need the approval of the European Parliament and European Union member states to become law.
The rules will oversee "moving images" in whatever way they are delivered, bringing Web-based or pay-per-view cable television under EU remit, which has hitherto been limited to traditional, scheduled television channels.
"It would be a distortion of competition if we were to just regulate one and not all," EU Information Commissioner Viviane Reding told reporters.
She described the new proposals as offering a "light regulatory touch" in a multi-channel, multi-media age. Is that not the most Hillaryesque phrase you've ever heard?
Current rules of no more than 12 minutes of advertising per hour will stay, but non-factual programmes will be allowed to use branded products on set to raise cash, a device known as product placement. Big deal - we do that all the time without worrying that Pepsi will destroy Mecca Cola's market
"There was quite a lively and long-winded debate in the Commission," Reding said, but added no major changes were made to her text.
Some EU lawmakers are expected to say it is too easy on advertisers, and not strong enough in defending European culture against its American counterpart.
Traditional broadcasters complain that the proposed new rules propose a lighter regulatory regime for the new pay-per-view services where viewers can choose what to watch. Damn freedom of choice!In the proposals, the definition of television is ditched in favour of "moving image", with or without sound and distributed by electronic networks, so that moving images over the Internet are also covered. ahem
The new rules also reaffirm that only one member state will have regulatory oversight of a media firm, known as the country of origin rule.
Posted by: Frank G ||
12/13/2005 15:39 ||
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#1
She described the new proposals as offering a "light regulatory touch" in a multi-channel, multi-media age.
Whatever. As long as these power-hungry idiots limit the scope of their demands and remedies to the area within their own borders, they can do whatever the hell they want. Leave us the hell alone.
BELGRADE - Serbia on Monday convicted 14 former Serb militia members of the massacre of nearly 200 Croatian prisoners of war and wounded during the battle of Vukovar in November 1991. A special Belgrade court found them guilty of carrying out the executions on a pig farm at the end of the three-month siege of Croatiaâs easternmost town by local Serb rebels backed by Yugoslav army troops, tanks and artillery.
Posted by: Steve White ||
12/13/2005 00:08 ||
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#1
Home town boys seem to be moving a lot faster than the High UN courts in dealing with Balkan war crimes. Another reason to do away with the failed organization.
European Parliament president Josep Borrell called on the 76 countries still allowing the death penalty to respect the right to life and end the practice of capital punishment.
Has he called on the murderers and torturers to respect the right to life and put an end to killing their fellow human beings?... I thought not.
Borrell said the United States is the only democratic state that makes "widespread use" of the death penalty and the EU has a duty to convince the Americans to abolish it.
Maybe we could have an actual discussion on the subject. It'd be our duty to convince the Euros to reinstate it on principles of simple justice and of public safety.
"Most unfortunately, in the U.S. the 1000th execution was carried out. The fact that it almost coincided with Human Rights Day makes this fact particularly poignant," Borrell told the EU assembly. "Luckily the death penalty is disappearing throughout the world, but the number of executions carried out is still excessively high."
The death penalty as practiced today is as humane as we can make it, virtually the same as putting down your dog. If your dog is vicious and kills people with its big doggy fangs, you agonize over it, but you put the creature down, because public safety is more important than keeping Fideau, on the off chance he won't chew your face off like he did that lady in La Belle France. By the same token, when Jean-Pierre or Fritz or Clive or Wladimir goes off the deep end and is a danger to the rest of society, he should also be removed from the gene pool. He doesn't have to be drawn and quartered, or even dragged to the block in a tumbrel while the populace pelts him with fruit â though I notice the death penalty was a lot more popular back in the days when such things happened.
No amount of incarceration short of life is equivalent to what the victims of murder lost, and while krazed killers are serving their "life" sentences the victims â remember them? â tend to be forgotten by all but their close relatives. "Life" tends to be commuted, especially as the perp ages and becomes not a young tough guy but an old man, bent from his regrets over his wasted life. So he's sprung at some point short of "life," rather than being wheeled directly from his cell to the boneyard. Yet the victims never get the privilege of becoming little old man or ladies because they're still doorknob dead.
And of course putting the bad guyz down does cut the recidivism rate to zero.
In 2004, according to the human rights group Amnesty International, executions were carried out in 25 nations. In that year, 97 percent of all executions were performed in just four countries: China, Iran, Vietnam and the U.S. "But there is a glimmer of hope. U.S. society is changing its views on the death penalty," Borrell said.
Actually, I'd say U.S. society's views on the subject are swinging back toward the death penalty. I'm thinking Borrell spends too much time talking only to people who think like he does.
Capital punishment is not allowed in Europe, where no execution has been carried out since 1997. Various European institutions have pledged to fight for a "death-penalty-free" zone outside the continent. "For us in Europe, the right to life is an inalienable right. No one ever loses their right to life, no matter what they have done." Borrell said.
Except for victims, of course. But they don't count. They're dead, y'know.
Posted by: Fred ||
12/13/2005 00:00 ||
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#2
Borrell said the United States is the only democratic state that makes "widespread use" of the death penalty
Not true. There are a number of democracies that use the death penalty on a regular basis. In SEA, Singapore, Thailand and Malaysia come to mind. Unless of course you want to argue that the population has to be predominately white to count as a real democracy.
#4
Hah, wotta laugh. You're that little greek wimp, right? You left off the *sneer*, sonny.
Y'know, you're right, we're some bloody mean motherfuckers. We don' wag fingers, we bite 'em off. I have the complete set, myself.
Funny thing is that if we wanted anything you had, junior, we'd just take it. You're unarmed and unmanned - which is to say there's not a man among the lot of you. The neighborhood pussy 'round here would live fat off your kind. Safe as a baby - as long as he didn't turn his back to you.
The down side is you don't have anything we'd want. We have standards that go well beyond posturing and preening and simpering.
#5
In 2004, according to the human rights group Amnesty International, executions were carried out in 25 nations. In that year, 97 percent of all executions were performed in just four countries: China, Iran, Vietnam and the U.S.
THE BIG LIE!
So as to distort pwerceptions, to make us look like barbarians, this piece of Euroshit does not say that of the 97% of the 3800 executions in the world, 3400 were done by the Chinese.
This sorry excuse for a human being (Is he one?) should have said, "90% of the executions were done by the Chinese, 4% by Amadisnuts' Magic Mullahs in Iran, and 6% by everyone else..."
But of course, that is if he had any functioning brain cells. However, Josep Borrell, who will change his mind in his last milliseconds of life after coming to South Central L.A., and getting held up.... When he is dying agonizingly of a decapitating shotgun blast from a Crips Gangbanger, he will have that last epipheny.
But that is unlikely as his type doesn't want to soil his hands and deal with the real world like Mr. Owens, or the Yang family...
He has had, of course, like many of his type, probably certain parts of his brain tied off from any blood supply.
"This way, I don't have to be sympathetic to any victims of 'crime', only those poor men who were denied cookies and milk as a 7 year old, and had to take out their rage on a random target. You must understand their anguish. Victims aren't important, after all they are already dead."
#6
Mention should be made of the Japanese technique.
You are sentenced to die at an unannounced time over the course of a year. That is, without public notice, on any given day in a year, you will be executed.
Only after you have been executed is the public informed, and your body released to your family.
Since appeals are incredibly rare in Japan, and almost never successful, death means death.
#7
Why the European Parliament president feels compelled to tell Americans how to deal with first degree murderers is beyond me. I would think that the European Parliament has enough problems right now that he could keep busy with his official business.
"Tookie" will not be harming anyone else, Aris. I assure you that the American public is safe from him. You, however, are free to continue to inflict pain and suffering. After the Athens bomber gets a hefty death toll and is finally apprehended, we'll see if you are inclined to house and feed him for the next sixty years.
Did it ever occur to you that we still have the death penalty in some states because the majority of the citizens of those states still approve of it? Just as they still disapprove of gay marriage? Who are you and Josep Borrell to expect that your values should be universal values? And when the Turkish military starts pouring over your borders, will you be shooting at them with bullets or blanks?
#8
Aris, I agree that capital punishment doesn't deter murder, but that is because of the way it is carried out. Most convicted mureders die of natural causes (old age) before the appeals process has run it's course. For those that poo poo that public punishment doesn't deter crime I piont to that shining examples of Saudi Arabia and Singapore. Very harsh public punishment and very low crime rates. We have relatively light punishments and crime rates skyrocket. It wasn't until many states passed three-strikes laws that crime rates started to fall.
#9
Let's remember that in many Europen countries Marc Dutroux would be released, free to commit more rapes and murders since not only they don't have death penalty, they also consider life sentences as inhuman and in fact would not extradite a suspect if he could be sentenced to life.
For those who don't remember Marc Dutroux is that Belgian who had a business in child porn (1) who rapted, raped and killed early teen and preteen girls. The points is that for he was not a (perhaps curable) maniac. For him it was a business, a highly lucrative business and he will do it again the very same day he is released. And that is precisely what Aris and those oh so human abolitionists would do: release him and let his victims pay the price of abolitionts's feel goodism.
Society has duties toward the citizens, and specially toward the children. One of them is protecting them and if that implies executing criminals, so be it.
Posted by: Frank G ||
12/13/2005 11:05 Comments ||
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#11
I am personally against the death penalty, but I find it obnoxious that Europeans are so against executing the guilty, but have no problem euthanizing the innocent sick and elderly.
#12
Since Josep Borrell is Spanish let me tell two interesting histories about Spain's judicial system.
The first one is about De Juana Chaos a Basque terrorist involved in more than 20 murders. He was sentenced to thousands of years. He is totally unrepentant: he is a strong proponent of alliance of ETA with Al Quaida and he has told about the pleasure he feels when he sees the faces diformed by the pain of families at funerals. However the judge Pedraz (that one who tries to have US servericemen arrested) decreed his liberation after only 18 years. Less than one for every murder. A man who is willing to kill, or plan killings, and help mass murders and who takes pleasure in it. How is that possible? First of all law provides that no sentence could go beyond thirty years, second of all because getting university degrees also provided a reduction (BTW: the degrees were false) and that is how Pedraz could disregard the dangerosity of de Juana Chaos and release him. Fortunately, the order was appealed on the basis that de Juana Chaos had continued his activities while in prison. However a couple months later there was a woman as blood thirsty and as ready to kill again as De Juana Chaos who was released: this time the activity who allowed the reduction of her sentence was... playing indoor-soccer. May God care about her and De Juana's future victims because the Spanish lawmakers and judges will not.
The second story is about Ramon Baglieto. When he was in his twenties he saved the life of Basque baby. Nineteen years later, he was murdered in cold blood by the guy he had saved who in the interim had become a terrorist. After purging a pretty short sentence the terrorist has rented a shop... in the same building where lives the widow of his victim (BTW: it is not hazard since the shop sells glass for windows and he is carpenter ie not qualified) and is harrassing her in order to force her to leave it. No reaction of the Zapaterist authorities.
That is the Spanish judicial system. These are the people who are lecturing America about his legal system.
#13
European Parliament president Josep Borrell called on the 76 countries still allowing the death penalty to respect the right to life and end the practice of capital punishment.
There's only one thing to say about this: "Mind your own damned business."
#15
European Parliament president Josep Borrell called on the 76 countries still allowing the death penalty ...
Borrell said the United States is the only democratic state that makes "widespread use" of the death penalty...
1/76 or 1.3%. The EU better look to see why there are so little democtatic countries in the UN.
And do something about it!
#16
Interesting trivia from today's Seattle area: at the 0530 KMPS news there was ONE WHOLE SENTENCE devoted to 'tookie's(ptui!) execution. At 0600 the story was dropped and instead three sentences were devoted to a Bellvue- area ( adjacent to Seattle city) panty thief who had been repeatedly breaking into the same house and stealing these things. Guess tookie (ptui!) ain't so everlasting! BTW: EU: STFU!
#17
First of all I'll utterly ignore Huputch Gruling6514 (and thus by extension Frank G.) since they didn't raise any points at all. I'll only say that usually one would have to *hire* opponents such as them, just to create strawmen of macho imbecility. That they make their appearance free of charge... wow. Such generosity, guys. Thank ya.
Now, moving on to the *sentient* debaters:
This thread will be Arisified in 5, 4, 3, 2...
Can you advise me on how to answer the points raised, without committing the sin of Arisification?
"After the Athens bomber gets a hefty death toll and is finally apprehended, we'll see if you are inclined to house and feed him for the next sixty years.
Death penalty (including the money for appeals & so forth) costs more than housing and feeding the prisoner in question for life. So the issue of money wasted is a point *against* the death penalty.
(there's a sidepoint I could dispute here, regarding the role of terrorism in the countries of the deeply democratic West vs its role in a country which is in the pocket of Russia, but it's not relevant to the issue of the death penalty, and so I'll let it pass)
Did it ever occur to you that we still have the death penalty in some states because the majority of the citizens of those states still approve of it? Just as they still disapprove of gay marriage?
Yes, ofcourse. I never dispute your democracy on the issue of these points.
That's why people with firm convictions try to do their parts on changing your *opinions* over these issues, so that eventually a new majority will be formed which will both ban death penalty and permit same-sex marriages.
Some of course go to e.g. the judicial path, and feel that it's the courts' right and obligation to establish rules that go beyond the right of democratic majorities to alter. "Judicial activism" I believe you call it? I think that both these attitudes have merit in different situations -- and the fact that your constitution allows them both, seems to indicate that its writers thought likewise.
Either way, one thing that the fact of democracy definitely doesn't forbid is having people of other nations try to convince you that you are damn wrong. Democracy doesn't determine once-and-for-all which ideas are right and which must be condemned to the abyss. Democracy is a process where even unpopular ideas have a say.
Who are you and Josep Borrell to expect that your values should be universal values?
I'm a moral absolutist. That means that if a value (inside the state's purview) isn't universal, it's not a value at all, it's merely a personal preference (in which case it should probably not be in the purview of the state at all).
Democracy isn't the process that necessarily determines the *best* value, it's merely the arbiting mechanism that we civilised people have determined to use to solve our disputes. Your shouts of "democracy" doesn't make our disagreement go away -- it merely means that as long as you are with the majority your view will hold sway: and it also means that I will keep on trying to make your majority eventually become a minority.
Which (if current trends continue) is unlikely in regards to the death penalty, but is becoming e.g. ever more likely with the same-sex marriage issue.
It wasn't until many states passed three-strikes laws that crime rates started to fall.
Actually I read that the fall of the crime rates seems very strongly connected with the spread of abortion across the United States -- to quote from
Orson Scott Card"The fall in crime rates marches in lockstep with legalized abortion fifteen to twenty years before." and "1973 wasn't the beginning of legal abortions in the United States. There were states that legalized abortion several years earlier. And guess what? In those states, the crime rate began to fall exactly that number of years earlier. "
Bomb-a-rama> "Mind your own damned business."
During a war where (supposedly) America is trying to export its values to the Middle-east, thinking said values universal (and I'll agree with that), "Mind your own damned business" is the one thing you can damn well NOT say. You may disagree with which values to try to export, you may disagree about whether fellow democracies should be pressured and to which extent, but the one thing you can absolutely NOT say and hold any shred of self-consistency is "Mind your own damned business".
We'll either export a set of values or we won't. Perhaps America only wants to export democracy, gender equality, and capitalism, while Europe want to export democracy, gender equality, and lack of the death penalty, but either way "Minding your own damned business" is what you ain't doing either.
#18
Aris - with regard to your last statement, 3000 people in NY made it our business. If you mean that we should not be trying to give the Muslim world another way, I entirely agree. After the next Muslim outrage, we should just retaliate massively. No interference, just retaliation.
#19
Aris, we might listen to you a bit more if Europe wasn't in the sad state it is. The perception here is that Europeans see themselves and their institutions as superior to the US and our institutions. We see our institutions, not ourselves, as superior to Europen ones. we have a vibrant economy and most of Europe does not. I can go from where I live in Tennessee to Boston and people are pretty much the same. You can go from Greece to Germany and very little is the same. I do not believe a European Constitution will ever work because of the differences in all the members. Europeans will not put European identity above their individual countries. For the most part here in the US we put Country first and State second.I just don't see anything similar happening in Europe.
Posted by: Deacon Blues ||
12/13/2005 15:19 Comments ||
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#20
Well said, Deacon!
Posted by: Barbara Skolaut ||
12/13/2005 15:25 Comments ||
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#21
Aris
I a soooooo disappointed you didn't reply to my posts despite the fact I mentionned your name in one of them.
And BTW, I were you, I would spend more energy to fighting death penalty in the Netherlads were thousands of elders and children are put to death every year without their consent or the consent of their family. They call it euthanasia, but in my place they call it murder and it is not mercy what motivates them but cutting costs for Social Security.
#23
Aris - with regard to your last statement, 3000 people in NY made it our business.
Don't be absurd, Iraq and the Middle-east is merely the most emphatical example, but US is supposedly promoting democratic and other western values (e.g. freedom of religion) around the world, ain't ya?
If you mean that we should not be trying to give the Muslim world another way, I entirely agree.
No, I meant exactly what I said, that we should be each trying to export our values like hell. Since America and the European nations are all democratic, we won't need to *bomb* each other to export said values, we can just fight it out with words, vocally tear into each other. We'll call you barbarians, you'll call us wimps. Isn't it nifty?
Aris, we might listen to you a bit more if Europe wasn't in the sad state it is.
In the issue of murder rates, Europe is in a much *much* better situation than America. Perhaps you should seek to emulate our strong points, even if we should try to emulate yours?
we have a vibrant economy and most of Europe does not.
Is that fact related to the murder rates?
(It's *possible*, I'll grant you that. It's possible that the socialdemocracy that has caused partial stagnation in the European democracy also provides the security net that causes less crime to go murderous -- possible but highly uncertain ofcourse.)
Either way I doubt you claim that abolishing the death penalty will cause your economy to stagnate. You'll note, I hope, that I've NEVER argued that your *economy* should emulate the European one.
#24
And BTW, I were you, I would spend more energy to fighting death penalty in the Netherlads were thousands of elders and children are put to death every year without their consent or the consent of their family.
JFM, I don't speak Dutch. I do speak English.
I a soooooo disappointed you didn't reply to my posts despite the fact I mentionned your name in one of them.
Well, I disagree with releasing murderers and especially repeat murderers. Does that answer your posts fully?
I also think that the burden of the possibility of wrongly executing the innocent more than outweighs the burden of the possibility of a murderer escaping to kill again. I'm willing to take up the guilt of an escaped convict's crimes, if you are willing to take up the guilt for wrongful executions.
#25
I'm willing to take up the guilt of an escaped convict's crimes
Revered one, thank you so much for taking so many potenial sins on your broad shoulders. The potential victims will be so relieved to know of your assumption of guilt.
Posted by: Frank G ||
12/13/2005 15:55 Comments ||
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#28
Aris, I didn't mean to infer that our economy is tied to the murder rate. it is relatively high here in mostly inner city areas due, in my opinion, to drug turf wars. Nor do I believe if we abolished the death penelty would our economy collapse. Don't be absurd. I do agree we shouldn't be at cross purposes with each other as regards exporting our shared values. You seem to believe Europe has moral superiority because the death penalty has been outlawed. There are those here who would agree and tose who disagree. personally I think the death penalty should be very rare. Life is sacred but those persons to whom life is not sacred and take others lives for their own gratification I believe they should forfeit their own life. will it bring back the dead victims? No. Tookie williams murdered 4 people because he could. Therefore, his own life should be forfeit.
Posted by: Deacon Blues ||
12/13/2005 15:56 Comments ||
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#29
at least since the advent of DNA testing....google away
Posted by: Frank G ||
12/13/2005 15:56 Comments ||
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#30
The executed innocent will be so relieved to know you don't give a damn.
As will the victims be relieved to know you don't give a damn. What's the ratio of victims to innocents executed? Greater than 1 I'll bet. So you'd rather see more innocents die, eh?
#31
One has to admit that the subtleties of American Federalism, involving the distribution of REAL power between states and the Federal government, kinda throws the Euros.
As soon as enough states have decided that they don't want a death penalty, they'll propose an Amendment to the Constitution, vote it into force by the required margin, and that would be that. Such an amendment would state that there was an actual sea-change in the attitude of the American people, not in 5 judges' minds who would impose their beliefs on 300 million plus people by judicial fiat.
Then again, seeing who's doing the criticising, doing ANYTHING and EVERYTHING in the EU by fiat, judicial or administrative, by unelected officials, is just fine with them. Indeed, if we abandoned the death penalty in a manner that truly reflected the american people's will, it would seem to me that the EU officials would be a bit displeased, although I am sure they would show that displeasure amongst themselves in private.
#32
at least since the advent of DNA testing....google away
So in essense you are asking me "prove innocent those whom current scientific knowledge shows to be guilty".
Sorry, I won't play your game using your arbitrary rules. Instead, I'll tell you that your example proves my very point: With the advent of DNA testing, lots of death row inmates were proven innocent. Namely, new technology can prove someone innocent that all the previous knowhow in the world had shown guilty. This happened with fingerprint identification, and again with DNA identification, and who knows what other means will be discovered in the future, proving innocent those that are *currently* believed guilty.
Not all the current death penalty cases use DNA either -- in some cases there's no relevant DNA to be matched with or against.
Or were you perhaps opposed to the death penalty *before* DNA testing came around? Are you *now* opposed to death penalty being used in cases where no DNA evidence exists?
And I'm willing to bet the opposite, oh anonymous brave one. So in my view, it's you who are willing to murder innocents, just in order to satisfy your desire for revenge against the guilty. The fact that how what happened with the advent of DNA testing doesn't phaze you at all, is all proof to the same that I need. People in death-row proven to be innocent! None of you seems to feel that this meant the system was thoroughly broken: and nobody knows *how* broken it may still be, because no one has a way of knowing.
#34
America - you must be proven guilty - we don't have to prove innocent. Wrong laws, AK. I was for the death penalty, and with the advent of DNA testing, the "innocent man" argument is blown away like the fluff it is. You don't get the death penalty without overwhelming proof. I just wish the appeals happened quicker and the executions took less than 5 yrs from trial. Buh bye!
Posted by: Frank G ||
12/13/2005 16:17 Comments ||
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#35
Perhaps America only wants to export democracy, gender equality, and capitalism, while Europe want to export democracy, gender equality, and lack of the death penalty, but either way "Minding your own damned business" is what you ain't doing either.
Well it's OUR justice system, not yours. You don't have the death penalty? Fine. We do. Get over it.
We rank about #24. Far below #5 Russia, #7 Estonia, #8 Latvia, #9 Lithuania, #10 Belarus, #11 Ukraine, #15 Moldova, #19 Costa Rica (a shocker there, I must admit), and #20 Poland.
We're high in property crimes, but not as high as #3 Italy, or #4 Great Britain. Canada, peaceful, happy land to the north, had more property crimes than we did.
But, quite frankly, women are safer here in the States. Our rape rate doesn't compare to #2 Austria, #3 Finland, #4 Sweden, #6 the UK, #7 the Netherlands, #8 Canada, #9 Slovenia, #10 France, #11 Italy, or #12 Switzerland. We're #13, still too high, but not nearly as bad.
Assaults aren't a place for the Europeans to brag about, either. For all our supposed violent tendencies, we're ranked #11. The UK is #2 (all those soccer houligans, no doubt), #5 is Canada, #6 goes to Finland, #8 France, #9 Denmark, and #10 Belgium.
Notice something there in the stats, Aris? With the exception of Costa Rica and Canada, all of the countries listed above are European, many of which are EU members. And Europe is going to lecture us about crime and punishment?
I don't know....maybe if the EU had more of their criminals pushing up the daisies, they'd have our crime rates....just sayin'.
Pick any execution this year in the United States. Find one that has the possibility that an innocent man got fried by mistake. A lot of us here will give you an audience.
But, for the most part, I think you'll find that the vast majority of perps that take the long walk have criminal records as long as your arm and there's little doubt as to their guilt.
#39
David's Medienkritik has an interesting post on the propaganda being fed the Germans about the Tookster. I imagine it's much the same over old europe. Best to acknowledge the EU knows best and let them go headlong into their civil war. I want no part of it.
Posted by: ed ||
12/13/2005 17:14 Comments ||
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#40
DB, some of those stats look suspcious. They must refer to reported/paperwork filed crimes, because South Africa, where fully 1/2 the women are raped in their lifetime, is not on the list. Notice S.A. is high on the murder rate, which is harder to cover up. I would like to see the stats corrected for underreporting.
Posted by: ed ||
12/13/2005 17:25 Comments ||
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Can you cite evidence that Greek citizens are more likely to report crimes against their person and/or property to the authorities as [ie.] U.K. citizens do?
Can you cite evidence that Greek authorities actually have/keep more accurate records of crimes against persons and/or property as [ie.] U.K. authorities do?
Posted by: Red Dog ||
12/13/2005 17:41 Comments ||
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#43
Canada, peaceful, happy land to the north, had more property crimes than we did.
I think you meant to say "has a higher property crime rate".
I'd like to see those stats for individual US states or cities. Chances are, there'd be nothing to brag about.
Posted by: Rafael ||
12/13/2005 17:42 Comments ||
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#44
Rafael, yep, you are right about some cities being friggin' war zones (Camden comes to mind...). But overall, we're safer here than we are given credit for.
#45
Desert Blondie> Since it was an EU official that made the statements instigating this thread, let's compare only the EU nations, shall we? 25 EU member-states in all.
Murder rates: We rank about #24. We rank about #24. Far below #5 Russia, #7 Estonia, #8 Latvia, #9 Lithuania, #10 Belarus, #11 Ukraine, #15 Moldova, #19 Costa Rica (a shocker there, I must admit), and #20 Poland.
So, where murder rates are concerned, 4 EU member-states are worse-off than you, so I guess 21 EU countries are better than you.
Property Crime victims: 3 EU member-states are worse-off than you, so I guess 22 EU member-states are better than you.
Rape rates: 8 EU states are worse than you, so I guess 17 EU states are better than you.
Assault victims: 5 EU states are worse than you, so I guess 20 EU states are better than you.
Total crimes: In that one you gave a link that went to the *total*, rather than per capita graphs, so obviously you'd have more reported crimes, since you are a bigger country than any single European one. In the "per capita" listings, Italy, UK and Malta are worse-off than you (more reported crimes) while all the rest (22 I guess) are better than you.
What I don't undestand is why you gave me those statistics in defense of the American crime rates.
On the whole however I'll also agree with ed: the problem of underreporting may exist for many of these countries/crimes. It's therefore perhaps best to stick with the murder rates, which are probably the most accurate of all (and would probably be most influenced by the death penalty one way or another anyway, and thus be more relevant to the issue at hand)
Red Dog, I don't even know what that means, but if you are referring to me, do me the courtesy of addressing me by name, same as I do you. It's basic manners.
In this thread (up to the recent post, where the statistics given were provided by another, not me, so it's she who'll have to vouch for them) I've been referring to the issue of *murder rates* throughout, which seem to me to be both the most accurate, and most relevant. So you're essentially asking me to defend points I've never made.
#48
From executing murderers, shooting disabled airline passengers, euthanasia, to African poverty... I'd say no side of the Atlantic has a claim on moral authority*.
*Vatican excepted
Posted by: Rafael ||
12/13/2005 18:40 Comments ||
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#49
DNA testing only overturned about a hundred death row cases, and those were old, pre-DNA-testing cases. More-recent cases and future cases will not have those problems as the technology is being applied before the trial.
#50
Aris, you speak from ignorance. Here is the 2000 international Crime Victims Survey of 17 indstrial nations.
The reason for setting up the ICVS was the inadequacy of other measures of crime across country. Figures of offences recorded by the police are problematic due to differences in the way the police define, record and count crime.
They surveyed 2000 people in each country with a 64% response rate. Greece was not surveyed, but would be lumped with Albania.
Overall victimisation
- Above 24% (victim of any crime in 1999): Australia, England and Wales, the Netherlands and Sweden
- 20%-24%: Canada, Scotland, Denmark, Poland, Belgium, France, and USA
- Under 20%: Finland, Catalonia (Spain), Switzerland, Portugal, Japan and Northern Ireland.
Car-related crime
The risk of having a car stolen was highest in England and Wales (2.6% of owners had a theft), Australia (2.1%), and France (1.9%). Japan, Switzerland, Catalonia, the USA, Finland, and the Netherlands show risks of 0.5% or less. Those in Poland, Japan, Belgium and the Netherlands were least likely to get their cars back - indicating proportionately more professional theft. Recovery rates were above 80% in Sweden, Australia, and the USA - indicating more thefts for 'joyriding'.
Burglary
The proportion of households who had a completed or attempted burglary was highest in Australia (7%), England and Wales (5%), Canada, Denmark and Belgium (all 4%).
Theft of personal property
Thefts of personal property will be heterogeneous in nature, but the highest risks were in Australia, Sweden, and Poland (about 5%-6% of people were victimised). ... Risks of pickpocketing were most common in Poland (4%). Risks were also comparatively high in Belgium, the Netherlands, Denmark, Catalonia, and England and Wales (about 2%). As previous sweeps have found, risks were lowest outside Europe: in Japan, Canada, and the USA.
Contact crime
An overall measure of contact crime was taken as robbery, assaults with force, and sexual assaults (against women only). The highest risks were in Australia, England and Wales, Canada, Scotland and Finland: over 3% were victims. This was more than double the level in USA, Belgium, Catalonia, Portugal, and Japan (all under 2%). In Japan the risk of contact crime was especially low (0.4%).
Robbery
Robbery was comparatively uncommon in all countries. Risks were highest in 1999 in Poland (1.8%), England and Wales, and Australia (both 1.2%). By far the lowest risks were in Japan and Northern Ireland (0.1%). On average, just over a third of victims of robbery said the offender(s) carried a weapon of some sort - in most cases a knife. There was a higher than average use of weapons in the USA, Catalonia, Scotland, and Portugal. Although not very statistically robust, the data indicate that guns were used relatively more often in Catalonia and the USA.
Sexual incidents
For all countries combined, just over one per cent of women reported offensive sexual behaviour. The level was half that for sexual assaults. Women in Sweden, Finland, Australia and England and Wales were most at risk of sexual assault. Women in Japan, Northern Ireland, Poland and Portugal were least at risk.
Assaults and threats
Taking all countries together, 3.5% were victims once or more of assaults or threats in 1999. Risks were highest in Australia, Scotland, England and Wales (about 6%) and Canada (5%). Risks were lowest in Japan, Portugal, (under 1%) and Catalonia (1.5%).
Finally: Police performance
People were asked to say whether or not the police did a good job in controlling crime in their area, and whether the police were helpful. Police performance was most favourably judged in the USA and Canada. Satisfaction levels were also comparatively high in Scotland and Australia. The poorest judgements were from this in Portugal, Poland the Netherlands, Japan and Catalonia.
You can read the rest and the breakout tables at the above link.
Posted by: ed ||
12/13/2005 19:15 Comments ||
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#51
*scratches head*, I must be missing something: it just appears to me that Aris is not as disturbed about a serial murderer killing innocents deliberately as he (and the Euros) are about a government mistakenly killing an innocent at the end of a long and arduous process of trying to establish guilt or innocence based on a presumption of innocence. It appears to me that it doesn't matter to them WHAT is done as much as WHO does it. Which explains why the US gets more grief than Saddam Hussein, even though the latter killed far more people than the former. And why Aris begged off addressing the Dutch Euthanasia issue with a rather lame excuse.
#52
BAh. I figured out why Aris said what he said about the euthanasia issue: he wants to make his judgment based on primary sources, and he wouldn't know how to enter a search term in Dutch to Google so he could use a translation program. Scratch my last line in the previous comment.
#53
Rafael, you are right. Crime in the US is way overconcentrated in poor and minority city areas while most suburbs are very safe. Much of it can be traced to the drug trade and the need for territory and money drugs require. Is the solution legalization or execution of dealers? What we are currently doing isn't working.
Posted by: ed ||
12/13/2005 19:27 Comments ||
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#54
I feel that the death penalty if carried out in a timely manner, would make a big difference in our crime rate. The fact that we hold folks for so damn long behind bars, makes people think they'll get away with the murder. They feel it is worth the risk.
This recent deal with Tookie was just outrageous. For all of the so called movie stars pleading for him, and how he turned his life around, blah blah blah. That's just too much BS for me. He should have been terminated many years ago.
Posted by: Jan ||
12/13/2005 19:33 Comments ||
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#55
Greece was not surveyed, but would be lumped with Albania.
Oh dear lord. I don't think any European country can be lumped in with Albania.
The wonders of (meaningless) statistics. Liechtenstein's exports per dollar GDP is the highest in the world. Does this mean Liechtenstein is some omnipotent industrial superpower? No. Same with the crime stats.
Posted by: Rafael ||
12/13/2005 19:35 Comments ||
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#56
Rafael, that was a joke. I screwed up the italics. Should be: The reason for setting up the ICVS was the inadequacy of other measures of crime across country. Figures of offences recorded by the police are problematic due to differences in the way the police define, record and count crime.
They surveyed 2000 people in each country with a 64% response rate. Greece was not surveyed, but would be lumped with Albania.
Posted by: ed ||
12/13/2005 19:42 Comments ||
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#57
Is the solution legalization or execution of dealers?
Definitely NOT legalization. I like the Singaporean approach. Beat the guy to shit with sticks.
There wouldn't be a need for executions if prison was a scary place to be, literally. Right now, it's like a badge of honor. At the very least let's make them earn that badge. Hard time should mean hard time. Like in Portugal in Salazar's time. Cells just large enough for you to stand in, no sitting. Or one way flights to Rock Island. If you can swim back, you're free!
Or...you can have the European way...suspended sentences. You must admit Aris, Europe is waaaaay too soft on crime. It's one thing to be against the death penalty, quite another to be lackadaisical about crime. But that's what you get with socialism.
Posted by: Rafael ||
12/13/2005 19:49 Comments ||
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#58
Ed,
I looked over the ICVS stats at the link you provided. A few notes as to why I look at these stats with distrust:
Since I know a bit about Poland, I'll use it as an example.
Example: Percentage of homes with burglar alarms and special door locks: The survey concludes: "The main differences were that Denmark and Poland came fairly low in terms of precautions taken, although burglary risks were comparatively high." That's simply false. They probably did not take into account that people in Poland generally have double doors. The first door is usually a heavy iron door. Alarms are also common. "Grilles" on windows are (or were) common also, which the survey claims they are not.
Feelings of safety on the streets: "Those in Catalonia, Australia and Poland were most anxious about being out alone at night..." In Poland's case, this should be evaluated against the historical background. Poland under communism was particularly safe. You could count on the Police for keeping order (they did not spare the truncheon). After communism collapsed, Police powers were severely curtailed. A perception of lawlessness took hold, which continues to a lesser extent to this day.
Comparing answers to such questions is meaningless without a broader (and better) context than the survey provided. Only the raw numbers are meaningful.
Posted by: Rafael ||
12/13/2005 20:56 Comments ||
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#59
And the last part of this thread sums it up nicely, bringing us back to one reason it might be a good idea to continue with the death penalty, Substitute a few words about our times in Rafael's paragraph, and you have:
"You could count on the Police for keeping order (they did not spare the truncheon)...[after the LA riots] Police powers were severely curtailed. A perception of lawlessness took hold, which continues to a lesser extent to this day."
When bangers don't believe there will be a price for the murders they commit, a perception of lawlessness with impunity prevails. That is called incentive. Cyber Sarge has it right in #8.
This sentence was the ideal sentence-show the young that all the liberal hand-wringers in the world do not relieve you of the yoke of past crimes you've committed. This sentence makes clear that the sh*t he pulled is deadly serious.
And for those who maintain he was innocent and was an important force for good in gang areas-he had an opportunity to show that his loyatlies to the gang didn't come before his loyalty to the country's citizens. He declined. I am proud of the way Arnold addressed the clemency request.
#60
And the last part of this thread sums it up nicely, bringing us back to one reason it might be a good idea to continue with the death penalty, Substitute a few words about our times in Rafael's paragraph, and you have:
"You could count on the Police for keeping order (they did not spare the truncheon)...[after the LA riots] Police powers were severely curtailed. A perception of lawlessness took hold, which continues to a lesser extent to this day."
When bangers don't believe there will be a price for the murders they commit, a perception of lawlessness with impunity prevails. That is called incentive. Cyber Sarge has it right in #8.
This sentence was the ideal sentence-show the young that all the liberal hand-wringers in the world do not relieve you of the yoke of past crimes you've committed. This sentence makes clear that the sh*t he pulled is deadly serious.
And for those who maintain he was innocent and was an important force for good in gang areas-he had an opportunity to show that his loyatlies to the gang didn't come before his loyalty to the country's citizens. He declined. I am proud of the way Arnold addressed the clemency request.
#61
The great majority of crime done in this country is done by repeat offenders, the usual suspects. If the death penalty does nothing else, it certainly deters repeaters. Whats not to like about taking that type of scum out of circulation?
Not sure that EU sentences are ones to emulate. Imagine the maximum sentence of 30 years mentioned in the thread applied to hearty men like the one who sawed off a preteen's forearms in the US for kicks a few years back. Or 8 1/2 years for premeditated murder and cannibalism as the gent in Germany did. Europeans are none to take us to task for inappropriate punishments.
#63
Sorry, Aris, I had a social engagement to go to.
The reason I was bringing up those stats was simple. Don't play cute with the "members of the EU" vs "ones that aren't yet...give them time" distinction. You were implying that Europe has far better crime rates and last time I checked, all of those countries I listed (except for Costa Rica and Canada) were in Europe.
Considering there is a huge crime problem in your own backyard, the idea of some goofball like Borrell lecturing us on how to run a criminal justice system really irritates.
While I don't agree with the death penalty on moral grounds, looking at the stats makes me wonder if it might just be the right thing to do after all.
The debate over the imminent execution of Stanley Tookie Williams hinges partly on his claim that he founded the notorious Crips street gang -- then renounced a criminal life in a quest for redemption.
Though Williams, who is scheduled to die on Tuesday, maintains his innocence in the four 1979 murders that landed him on death row, he takes credit for founding the Crips a decade earlier with another teenager, Raymond Washington, and says he now regrets his role.
Prosecutors question the 51-year-old Williams' sincerity in repudiating the Crips. Experts say the convicted killer and his supporters have also overstated his role in founding the gang -- which has a reputation for violence -- as a way of emphasizing his claim of redemption.
"Actually, everybody but Tookie gives Raymond Washington credit for starting (the Crips)," said Malcolm Klein, an emeritus professor of sociology at the University of Southern California who has studied gangs since 1962.
"Instead of founding the gang, which is what Tookie claims, what you're really talking about is emerging as a dominant figure," Klein told Reuters. "Because he is such a dominant, violent, articulate bad guy, rather than leadership you're talking about influence."
Latino gangs first surfaced in Los Angeles after the turn of the century, historians say, and black gangs may have formed in the 1930s.
Blacks moved to Los Angeles in large numbers during World War II and those gangs gained strength until the mid-1960s, when youths were drawn to the civil-rights movement and radical political groups like the Black Panthers.
By the end of that decade, the Panthers had faded and 15-year-old Washington stepped into a power vacuum, creating a gang he initially called the Baby Avenues. The origins of the name "Crips" are hazy, though one theory attributes it to a disabled member known as a "cripple" to his comrades.
"The Crips were already well established when Tookie came on the scene," said retired Los Angeles County Sheriff's Sgt. and gang expert Wes McBride.
"(That he created the Crips) is part of his mystique that his supporters are using to try get him commuted. It gives him a stature as an anti-hero kind of person that has now turned his life around."
McBride says Williams, known by his middle name Tookie or the nickname "Big Took," helped build and solidify the Crips. The gang caught the imagination of the media after killing the son of a prominent black attorney and entering the popular culture through Hollywood films.
The Bloods emerged as rivals to the Crips in the early 1970s and the two gangs have feuded ever since.
McBride dismissed as "nonsense" claims by Williams that he started the Crips to defend his neighborhood against other gangs.
Williams has become a cause for anti-death penalty activists, including rapper and former Crips member Snoop Dogg and Oscar-winning actor Jamie Foxx, who starred in a sympathetic TV movie about the convicted murderer.
His case is one of several that have drawn attention to the U.S. use of the death penalty, as America recently passed its 1,000th execution since the U.S. Supreme Court reinstituted capital punishment in 1976.
McBride said there are now some 200 Crips gangs, though most are only loosely affiliated, with some 25,000 members in the Los Angeles area. Hundreds of people, mostly young black men, are killed each year in California by gangs.
Washington was killed by a rival gang member in 1979.
"There's not a whole lot of difference between the Crips of today and the Crips of yesteryear, only there's more of them," McBride said. "They are more involved in narcotics trafficking than they used to be, but Crips will do whatever they can to make money. Bank robberies, armored car robberies."
"Their legacy is that they've helped destroy the black community," McBride said. "Gangs kill communities just as surely as they kill people."
Posted by: Dan Darling ||
12/13/2005 02:29 ||
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McBride said there are now some 200 Crips gangs, though most are only loosely affiliated, with some 25,000 members in the Los Angeles area. Hundreds of people, mostly young black men, are killed each year in California by gangs.
It it just an ammunition shortage or poor marksmanship that is holding the numbers down?
#3
The Crips and the Bloods were at each others throats in LA until they got an "intervention" from the Mexican Mafia. The MM advised them that if *anybody* did any more gang shootings, then the MM would kill them and their entire families.
This, of course, was a purely business decision. But it has remained in force for many years.
Recently, however, I suspect that MS-13 is challenging the MM, resulting in considerable hurt feelings.
The Anti-Terrorist Squad(ATS) of the Bombay Police, Sunday night arrested Naeem Khan, a top aide of gangster Abu Salem, wanted for allegedly collecting extornation money on behalf of the gangster from builder Pradeep Jain in 1990. Though the ATS claimed that they had arrested Khan as he flew into Bombay from Dubai, the facts remain that Naeem Khan on his own had decided to surrender to the police. In a interview to an English daily from Dubai, two days ago, Khan had said that he wanted to surrender to the Bombay Police, as he was homesick and wanted to return to his country to face trial. Khan denied that he was involved in an extortion business with gangster Abu Salem or that he had played any role in the Jain murder and therefore he would return to Bombay.
Posted by: Fred ||
12/13/2005 11:11 ||
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MUZAFFARABAD: In an unprecedented incident, a rescue and relief team of Shabab-e-Milli and Al-Khidmat pulled out a woman from under the debris of a collapsed building in Muzaffarabad, 63 days after the October 8 earthquake. BBC Urdu reported that 40-year-old Naqsha Bibi had been rescued on December 10, and local people looked after the woman for two days. She was handed over to a team of German doctors on Monday and was shifted to Pakistan Islamic Medical Association Hospital at Kamsar Relief Camp. Locals said that the womanâs parents and two brothers had died in the quake. Dr Hafiz at PIMA Hospital said that Naqsha Bibi was in ICU.
Dang. One tough lady.
Posted by: Steve White ||
12/13/2005 00:27 ||
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But now the muzzies will probably figure that she's some sort of witch and stone her...
#2
If true, then this is amazing. PBM's comment rings true... I have to say that this story, as reported, doesn't ring true, however. Color me skeptical.
#3
I do scent a bit of exageration here. I suspect that if it's not a miracle tale she was trapped in her house by rubble with a pretty well-stocked pantry and couldn't go out for 63 days.
But that pantry had to be pretty full.
Posted by: Fred ||
12/13/2005 12:12 Comments ||
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I think I've sat next to a woman named Bibi on Delta flight from Atlanta....? She could have gone for at least two months days without eating another bite, no problem!
NEW DELHI: A day after India signed the United Nations Convention Against Corruption in New York, 11 MPs were caught on video taking bribes through touts to raise issues in the Indian parliament.
C-SPAN has better reach than I thought.
Aajtak TV news channel showed âOperation Duryodhanâ after it bought the video from Anirudh Bahl of the Tehelka tapes fame. An eerie chill swept through parliament on Monday, as the sting operation involved members of the ruling Congress party as well as the opposition Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP).
An embarrassed BJP, which was using the Volker Committee report to pressure Congress, suspended six of its MPs involved in the scam: Annasaheb MK Patil (Erandol) and YG Mahajan (Jalgaon) from Maharashtra, Suresh Chandel from Hamirpur, Himachal Pradesh, Pradip Gandhi from Rajnahdgaon, Chhattisgah, Chandrapratap Singh from Sidhi, Madhya Pradesh and Orissa Rajya Sabha member Chhatrapal Lodha.
Three others belonging to the Bahujan Samaj Party (BSP) - Narendra Kumar Kushwaha, Lal Chandra and Raja Ram, all from Uttar Pradesh - while one each from the ruling Congress and Rashtriya Janata Dal - Ramsevak Singh of Gwalior and Manoj Kumar of Jharkhand â were also suspended by their parties. Lok Sabha Speaker Somnath Chatterjee asked the 11 MPs not to attend parliament till he completed an inquiry.
Posted by: Steve White ||
12/13/2005 00:25 ||
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And in other news, Indians were flummoxed to discover that it rained in monsoon season.
Gimme a break. You gotta pay a bribe to cross the street in India. The only people stunned were the folks "touting" the other side of the issue who overpaid on their bribes.
#2
#1 âGimme a break. You gotta pay a bribe to cross the street in Indiaâ
Very true. Many places, people bribe to have a favor. In India, bribe and ransom are the same.
A strong earthquake struck remote northeastern Afghanistan and shook neighboring Pakistan, the scene of a devastating quake two months ago. There were no immediate reports of damage or injuries.
"Are they Unitarians yet?... No?... Give 'em another jolt, Bob!":
The U.S. Geological Survey said the magnitude 6.7 quake was centered in the remote Hindu Kush region of northeastern Afghanistan. It struck shortly before 3 a.m. local time in Pakistan, shortly before 2:30 a.m. in Afghanistan. The quake centered about 65 miles southeast of Faizabad in the Hindu Kush mountains was felt more than 200 miles away in Islamabad, Pakistan, and in Kabul, where the shaking lasted several seconds and people rushed into the streets. Abdul Majid, the governor of the Badakhshan province where the quake was centered, told The Associated Press the ground there shook for two minutes. He said he had no information about any damage in the mountainous region, where communication with remote districts is difficult.
That's why the jihadis like to hole up there...
The sparsely populated area is about 200 miles from the center of the Oct. 8 quake that killed about 87,000 people in northwestern Pakistan and Indian Kashmir. Salim Akhtar, an official at the Peshawar earthquake center in Pakistan, said he did not consider it an aftershock of the October quake. The tremor sent people scurrying outside in areas hit by the October quake, Pakistani television stations reported. The stations also reported landslides near the town of Bagh in Pakistani Kashmir, one of the areas worst hit by the October quake.
Posted by: Fred ||
12/13/2005 00:00 ||
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Happens a lot up there.
Allah pissed off about something maybe?
#4
Badakhshan is due north of Nangahar, where the arm of Afghanistan runs along the north of Pakland and touches China. That'd be due east of Baghlan on this map.
Posted by: Fred ||
12/13/2005 16:24 Comments ||
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MALAYSIAN police have defended the practice of making women detainees strip naked and do ear squats, telling an independent commission of inquiry it was a "tradition".
The Malaysian Government set up the commission to investigate the way body searches are conducted after a 71-second mobile phone clip was released by opposition politicians last month.
In the clip, a Chinese woman is filmed from the back, apparently through a window, being instructed to strip and hold her ears while she does 10 squats.
Before the clip was produced, investigations into other complaints of police arrests of Chinese nationals had stalled.
The unidentified woman in the clip was expected to be one of 21 witnesses to give evidence to the inquiry in Kuala Lumpur yesterday.
Police say the naked squats are an effective non-contact way to prevent drugs or dangerous items being smuggled into police lock-ups. However, the practice is also used on women who have been arrested on passport offences.
In defending the practice the acting Assistant Commissioner of Police, Mohamed Hazam Azam Abdul Halim, told the inquiry the naked squats were not in the regulations but had become a tradition, conducted by a female policewoman in private.
"This is a private affair. We want to protect their dignity," Mr Hazam said, according to the New Straits Times. There was no explanation of how the video clip was taken.
The head of the commission, former chief justice Tun Mohamed Dzaidin Abdullah, expressed concern that women arrested on passport offences were also subjected to the squats. "This is an abuse," he said.
The ear squats video clip has also highlighted Malaysia's controversial targeting of Chinese nationals and created a backlash from China. When the allegations emerged, the Chinese embassy offered to support legal challenges by the detainees.
Malaysia's Home Minister, Azmi Khalid, was forced to issue a statement denying immigration officials and police were profiling young Chinese women, many of whom come to Malaysia on short-term visas to work in the entertainment industry.
Posted by: john ||
12/13/2005 18:41 ||
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young Chinese women, many of whom come to Malaysia on short-term visas to work in the entertainment industry.
Makes sense to me. If you can't do a few squats, how ya gonna ride that brass pole?
Southeast Asian nations are pressing Myanmar's generals to get serious about democracy as they open a summit aiming for broader Asian integration.
It's only been, what? Forty some years?
Military-ruled Myanmar's failure to fulfil its pledge to restore democracy and its continued house arrest of pro-democracy leader Aung San Suu Kyi has become the biggest political challenge facing the Association of Southeast Asian Nations. With the bloc's frustrations with fellow member Myanmar reaching a boiling point, leaders on Monday pushed the governing generals to allow Asean ministers to visit the country to assess its progress towards democracy. Myanmar, which keeps out reporters and recently ended visits by a UN envoy, said it would allow the Asean visit but that details need to be worked out, Thai Foreign Minister Kantathi Suphamongkhon said after the 10 Asean leaders met in a retreat in Kuala Lumpur.
Posted by: Fred ||
12/13/2005 00:00 ||
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Who? Nope, sorry. Nobody here but us Burmese today. Who's this Myanmar you're looking for?
#2
Guess they finally realized the US isn't gonna solve that problem for them. Nice to see them taking the lead and pushing for Democracy even if they won't put any teeth behind it.
Angry villagers have clashed with a Buddhist monk over the right to solicit donations from tourists at the site where last year's massive tsunami swept a train off the tracks in Sri Lanka and killed some 2,000 people. The clashes occurred after the monk ran beggars off the site where the rusted, mangled train cars still sit nearly a year after the disaster â and began his own donation drive.
"Beat it, rubes! Dis is my corner!"
The beggars retaliated by attacking the monk's operation, which brought in $5,700, a huge sum of money in a country where an average office worker earns $100 a month.
"Get the holy man!"
[Thump! Thump! Pummel!]
Now survivors of the train wreck say they are dismayed by the effort to turn a profit from the tsunami, while others are concerned about where the money would be spent â and if victims would reap the benefits.
Ummm... My guess is 'no.' What's yours?
"This shows the greed of people," said Nimal Premasiri, a railway stationmaster who was on the train and whose wife and daughter were killed in the tsunami. "We Sri Lankans are not bad people, but these people have made us look bad, very bad."
Sri Lankans, from what I've seen, are very nice people for the most part. These guys don't sound like they are.
Posted by: Fred ||
12/13/2005 00:00 ||
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Sounds like we've found the Buddhist Jesse Jackson maybe?
The link is the one year Yahoo chart. They were at about $40/share in Jan 05 and are now about $28/share.
The quarterly statement of profits also looks pretty bad:
http://finance.yahoo.com/q/is?s=NYT.
What is pretty sad for them is that they've been buying back their common stock this year so on paper they have somewhere in the neighborhood of a $500M loss on this transaction strategy.
#4
The NYT has two classes of stock: one class that's owned by the Sulzbergers and is not publicly traded, and another class that us proles are allowed to own. The Yahoo chart is for the publicly traded class of stock. Hmm, I wonder who gets to appoint most of the directors.
Posted by: Matt ||
12/13/2005 13:27 Comments ||
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#5
All media stocks have had an awful year (including radio and TV broadcasters). They're trimming their staffs and dealing with the problem. Dow Jones and Company - which publishes the Wall Street Journal - has worse margins. And Hollinger, which publishes the UK's (conservative) Daily Telegraph, is no longer even in Conrad Black's hands, thanks to some big time financial problems.
The problem they're all having is reduced ad revenues - the theory is that a lot of it is being diverted to the internet. Ad companies are feeling the pinch - Interpublic Group, which racks up billions in revenues, had its stock hit a five-year low recently.
The interesting thing is that the liberal media are actually run pretty efficiently. The operating principle appears to be this - media companies already contribute to the liberal cause by putting out liberal propaganda, so (in the minds of the managers) they're allowed to run their companies for maximum profit, even if that means laying off workers and breaking strikes.
#7
their Boston Globe is doing even worse in sales, adverts
Posted by: Frank G ||
12/13/2005 14:20 Comments ||
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#8
It must really suck to be MoDo's financial advisor:
"No, I don't recommend that you build a portfolio of stocks that rhyme with each other.... No, Paul was the one who told you to buy Enron, not me.... No, there's not a lot of point in buying Halliburton just so you can sell it.... No, I won't have dinner with you tonight- I'm unnecessary, remember?... Yes, twenty years is a long time, but that's not my fault."
Posted by: Matt ||
12/13/2005 14:37 Comments ||
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A multi-volume chronology and reference guide set detailing three years of the Mexican Drug War between 2010 and 2012.
Rantburg.com and borderlandbeat.com correspondent and author Chris Covert presents his first non-fiction work detailing
the drug and gang related violence in Mexico.
Chris gives us Mexican press dispatches of drug and gang war violence
over three years, presented in a multi volume set intended to chronicle the death, violence and mayhem which has
dominated Mexico for six years.
Rantburg was assembled from recycled algorithms in the United States of America. No
trees were destroyed in the production of this weblog. We did hurt some, though. Sorry.
A couple who forced a plane to land in Bermuda after they attacked cabin crew who stopped them having sex are facing a $34,000 bill for their pleasure. And they run the risk of national shame back in England after UK tabloid The Sun ran the story with an appeal for the public to name and shame them.
George Michael claims Princess Diana wanted to have sex with him....
A case of three headless bodies that shook Sanaâa is finally referred to prosecution. The three Palestinians suspected of the murder finally confessed their crimes. The murders that took place in the middle of last November included a Palestinian citizen, his wife and her friend. During investigations the criminals explained how they hosted the three victims in their house, and then beat them to death, using sharp tools. They then beheaded them and threw their limbs in different parts of Sanaâa streets. 
Authorities said yesterday that the case of a man and his wife who were allegedly beaten by members of the religious police is still under investigation, Arab News has learned. They also emphasized the requirement that members of the 
BELGRADE - Serbia on Monday convicted 14 former Serb militia members of the massacre of nearly 200 Croatian prisoners of war and wounded during the battle of Vukovar in November 1991. A special Belgrade court found them guilty of carrying out the executions on a pig farm at the end of the three-month siege of Croatiaâs easternmost town by local Serb rebels backed by Yugoslav army troops, tanks and artillery.
European Parliament president 
The debate over the imminent execution of Stanley Tookie Williams hinges partly on his claim that he founded the notorious Crips street gang -- then renounced a criminal life in a quest for redemption.
The Anti-Terrorist Squad(ATS) of the Bombay Police, Sunday night arrested Naeem Khan, a top aide of gangster Abu Salem, wanted for allegedly collecting extornation money on behalf of the gangster from builder Pradeep Jain in 1990. Though the ATS claimed that they had arrested Khan as he flew into Bombay from Dubai, the facts remain that Naeem Khan on his own had decided to surrender to the police. In a interview to an English daily from Dubai, two days ago, Khan had said that he wanted to surrender to the Bombay Police, as he was homesick and wanted to return to his country to face trial. Khan denied that he was involved in an extortion business with gangster Abu Salem or that he had played any role in the Jain murder and therefore he would return to Bombay.
NEW DELHI: A day after India signed the United Nations Convention Against Corruption in New York, 11 MPs were caught on video taking bribes through touts to raise issues in the Indian parliament.
A strong earthquake struck remote northeastern Afghanistan and shook neighboring Pakistan, the scene of a devastating quake two months ago. There were no immediate reports of damage or injuries. 
Southeast Asian nations are pressing Myanmar's generals to get serious about democracy as they open a summit aiming for broader Asian integration.
