Article

2004-11-30 Europe

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Posted by Fred 2004-11-30 10:07:13 PM|| || Front Page|| [11132 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 Both Greece and France are strongly opposed to Turkey entering the EU.
If the EU was strictly an economic union,letting Turkey in would be a no-brainer. But if EU is an alliance,whether Turkey supports the need for a counterweight to US would be important. If the EU is to be a political-cultural union,it's hard to argue Turkey is a European country,as Europe is defined today.

Posted by Stephen 2004-11-30 1:40:54 AM|| 2004-11-30 1:40:54 AM|| Front Page Top

#2 The document said EU governments would set âbenchmarksâ for opening and concluding negotiations on each policy area - giving Brussels the ability to make Turkey reach certain standards just to start talks on individual issues.

Heh, sounds to me like the goalposts' wheels are, at the moment, being oiled rather thoroughly...

Posted by Bomb-a-rama 2004-11-30 2:16:16 AM|| 2004-11-30 2:16:16 AM|| Front Page Top

#3 ...with motion sensors and self-propelled mechanism.

Posted by Conanista 2004-11-30 2:25:13 AM|| 2004-11-30 2:25:13 AM|| Front Page Top

#4 The "permanent emergency brake on labour migration" feels like a travesty to me. Free movement of labour within the EU is one of the so-called "Four Freedoms". Free movement of goods, capital, services and *people*.

A temporary barrier, as happened with Poland and other eastern-European countries is acceptable, to last for some years and then have it vanish. But a permanent such? Ugh. No, I don't think I would find such a term at all acceptable if I was in Turkey's place.

But this all means nothing if the EU Constitution isn't ratified. Without the ratification, we won't be able to integrate any more countries, no matter how "like us" or "not like us" they are.

If the EU is to be a political-cultural union,it's hard to argue Turkey is a European country,as Europe is defined today.

Given its NATO Membership and general friendship with Israel it's however also hard to argue that Turkey is Middle-eastern. Just like Ukraine, Turkey stands in the border between two geopolitical circles. It's neither the one nor the other. Mulatto.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-11-30 2:39:10 AM|| 2004-11-30 2:39:10 AM|| Front Page Top

#5 Historically Turkey was considered a European country. The view that Turkey is not really European approximately dates from the early days of the EU.

Posted by phil_b 2004-11-30 5:39:21 AM|| 2004-11-30 5:39:21 AM|| Front Page Top

#6 The sick man of Europe; guess he didn't get over what ailed him.

Posted by Mrs. Davis 2004-11-30 8:31:56 AM|| 2004-11-30 8:31:56 AM|| Front Page Top

#7 "Historically Turkey was considered a European country." Mostly because Turkey held most of the Balkans,which I believe Aris would point out has not been the case for a while. Also it should be mentioned,British statesmen,soldiers,writers,etc. in 1800/1900s would commonly call Turks "Asiatics". Until fairly recently,Asia was term that include Asia Minor,Syria and Iran.

Aris,
Canada is a member of Nato and generally friendly to Israel-should it be part of EU?(It's not like Iceland is connected to Europe.)My point was Turkey easily could fit into a EU that was primarily an economic or political union,but it would be hard to fit Turkey culturally into a EU that claimed a common "European" culture. Leaving aside religion,one of the defining characteristics of modern Europe is the social welfare package that is completely absent in Turkey. I would agree that Turkey is neither European nor Middle-Eastern. Which is why the EU will have a hard time deciding whether to let Turkey in-the EU has to decide what it is first.

Posted by Stephen 2004-11-30 11:20:51 AM|| 2004-11-30 11:20:51 AM|| Front Page Top

#8 Canada is a member of Nato and generally friendly to Israel-should it be part of EU?

Considering that something like 85% of Canadas exports go to the US, and that EU membership would mean leaving NAFTA, that would be pretty silly.

Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-11-30 11:28:14 AM|| 2004-11-30 11:28:14 AM|| Front Page Top

#9 "that would be pretty silly"

Just an observation: When has this stopped Kanadian MP's in the past?

Posted by .com 2004-11-30 11:32:02 AM|| 2004-11-30 11:32:02 AM|| Front Page Top

#10 Turkish Anotolia is considered part of Asia, ie the near east. Constantinople, which the Ottomans renamed Istanbul after their victory in 1453, is of course European. It's the "second Rome" (Moscow is considered the "third Rome") and is the seat of many of the great cultural achievements of Christian Rome.

Posted by lex 2004-11-30 11:37:16 AM|| 2004-11-30 11:37:16 AM|| Front Page Top

#11 Turkey is not European because it shares none of its historical development from the Renaissance to the Enlightenment and Industrial Revolution. None. The reason for this is that the Moslems have ruled that country for the last 500+ years. Modern Greece is part of Europe only because it managed to unshackle itself from Moslem occupation less than 200 years ago (thanks to Lord Byron and other fans of Ancient Greece, if memory serves me right).

Now, the problem the EU has is to define itself. Is it a political entity based on cultural-historical Europe? or is it a new Leviathan intent on absorbing as many peripheral countries as possible? if the former, Turkey is and stays out; if the latter, anything goes and the jihadis will rise...

Posted by Kalle (kafir forever) 2004-11-30 11:56:44 AM|| [http://radio.weblogs.com/0103811/categories/currentEvents/] 2004-11-30 11:56:44 AM|| Front Page Top

#12 Turkey is not European because it shares none of its historical development from the Renaissance to the Enlightenment and Industrial Revolution. None.

Separation of religion from state institutions? (cf Ataturk's modern secular Turkish state)

Posted by lex 2004-11-30 12:00:11 PM|| 2004-11-30 12:00:11 PM|| Front Page Top

#13 Good Q lex. In Sweden the Lutheran Church is a State Church. In England it's the Church of England...

Ataturk's secular, militarist dictatorship was a check against Moslem anti-modern forces, not a European-style gradual retreat of religion from intervention in the political sphere (what happened from the Renaissance through the Enlightenment).

Posted by Kalle (kafir forever) 2004-11-30 12:09:55 PM|| [http://radio.weblogs.com/0103811/categories/currentEvents/] 2004-11-30 12:09:55 PM|| Front Page Top

#14 OK, but you can cut them at least a little slack, can't you? By your standard Russia and Ukraine will never be worthy of Europe either. Is that really fair or appropriate?

Posted by lex 2004-11-30 12:13:39 PM|| 2004-11-30 12:13:39 PM|| Front Page Top

#15 "worthy"?

Isn't there some perspective called for, here? Lol!

Posted by .com 2004-11-30 12:17:32 PM|| 2004-11-30 12:17:32 PM|| Front Page Top

#16 Russia has a long way to go, indeed. Ukraine I don't know enough to say, but from my time there for business ten years ago I'd say the Ukrainian people are overall more open to the West than Russians are. I wouldn't say never for these countries, but I'd certainly say never for a majority Moslem country such as Turkey.

Turkey should aim at one thing only: free trade with the USA and the EU. Keep all other sources of conflict off the table. The problem is that the EU is a Leviathan that wants to use the carrot of free trade to impose political-cultural change. A bit as if your neighbourhood baker demanded that you change the way you dress before he lets you buy bread from him.

Posted by Kalle (kafir forever) 2004-11-30 12:34:30 PM|| [http://radio.weblogs.com/0103811/categories/currentEvents/] 2004-11-30 12:34:30 PM|| Front Page Top

#17 The problem is that the EU is a Leviathan that wants to use the carrot of free trade to impose political-cultural change. A bit as if your neighbourhood baker demanded that you change the way you dress before he lets you buy bread from him.

That's not a problem, that's a feature. It's a tactic that has worked so far.

but I'd certainly say never for a majority Moslem country such as Turkey

Does that include Bosnia and Albania? I've not yet seen many Europeans oppose eventual membership for those countries.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-11-30 1:22:20 PM|| 2004-11-30 1:22:20 PM|| Front Page Top

#18 A bit as if your neighbourhood baker demanded that you change the way you dress before he lets you buy bread from him.

Though I'd probably describe it as: "A bit as if your neighbourhood baker demanded that you stopped abusing your wife and mistreating your children before he lets you buy bread from him."

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-11-30 1:24:02 PM|| 2004-11-30 1:24:02 PM|| Front Page Top

#19 Sure Aris, the EU demands e.g. adoption of the metric system, changes to the tax code, special measurements of fruits and veggies -- and you compare that to domestic abuse.

Maybe Greece shouldn't be part of Europe. Return Greece to Turkish domination. Turn the Parthenon into a mosque, again.

As for Bosnia and Albania, I have no particular opinion about these small countries. I've never been there. If, however, they are like the Moslem countries I have visited, I'd say a dominant Moslem character should be reason enough to keep them out of the EU. Recent exactions against non-Moslem people and churches in the Balkans would indicate that the jihadist mentality is alive and well there.

Posted by Kalle (kafir forever) 2004-11-30 1:45:54 PM|| [http://radio.weblogs.com/0103811/categories/currentEvents/] 2004-11-30 1:45:54 PM|| Front Page Top

#20 Sure Aris, the EU demands e.g. adoption of the metric system, changes to the tax code, special measurements of fruits and veggies -- and you compare that to domestic abuse.

I thought we were discussing Turkey, not United Kingdom. And in Turkey's case it's not the metric system that had been the target of reform efforts. It was things like torture in prisons, the oppression of the Kurdish populations, the interference by the military in civil matters, reformation of the penal code, little stuff like that.

But I should have known better than believe you were discussing Turkey when you were pretending to be discussing Turkey.

Maybe Greece shouldn't be part of Europe. Return Greece to Turkish domination. Turn the Parthenon into a mosque, again.

You should do something for these epileptic fits. I hear there are medicine that can be of assistance.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-11-30 2:47:05 PM|| 2004-11-30 2:47:05 PM|| Front Page Top

#21 Aris, we were discussing the EU Leviathan and how it uses the carrot of trade to demand cultural-political change at its periphery. Surely you realize that Turkey is not the only country that has been pressured by EU social engineers? surely you realize that tax codes across non-EU European countries have been thoroughly messed up due to EU economic threats? surely you are aware of the regulation size of brussel sprouts and sausages outside of the UK?

But you are obviously a bore unable to keep to principles, always coming up with irrelevant objections. So, you seem to be a good fit for Moslem rule: short-range mentality, obsessed with central power, hating liberty-lovers in the US and UK, in love with your words. Check-check-check-check.

Posted by Kalle (kafir forever) 2004-11-30 3:29:01 PM|| [http://radio.weblogs.com/0103811/categories/currentEvents/] 2004-11-30 3:29:01 PM|| Front Page Top

#22 I have no interest in your inanity, Kalle.

Aris, we were discussing the EU Leviathan and how it uses the carrot of trade to demand cultural-political change at its periphery.

Yes, but very few people would consider "cultural-political change" to be a reference to the standardization of the labelling of brussel sprouts. One would consider matters of linguistic freedom or minority integration or of gender politics or of political democratization to fit much more closely to the definition of "cultural-political change".

But silly me, you were instead referring to the evil metric measurements, which the evil EU, (just like evil Australia, evil Japan and evil South Korea) demands in all products sold inside its borders. Yes, I admit I didn't see that coming. *Some* amounts of silliness and hyperbole are too bizarre to contemplate. Ooh, my political culture is horribly changed because a pound is divided in 100 pennies.

As for your oh-pity-me metric martyrdom, Kalle, do you really think that the EU could make such a rule, had the UK cared one bit about it not being made? The United Kingdom was already moving towards metricization since the 1960s when you first corrected your pound.

Now, wimpy for internal reactions, it's using the big-bad-EU explanation to impose a rule it decided *in common* with the rest of the EU. Here's a little secret, Kalle which you would have known already if you understood the EU's workings -- *all* the rules so-called "imposed" on your country by the EU, are things commonly agreed, which means they share UK's consent.

So deal with it with your own political elite which uses the EU as a scapegoat, and leave the poor goat alone.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-11-30 3:59:21 PM|| 2004-11-30 3:59:21 PM|| Front Page Top

#23 Aris, I'm Swedish, not British.

Thanks for illustrating my previous post. You again offer a bunch of irrelevant side-comments, showing no interest in the principle of the EU Leviathan at work. Can't do that little shuffle of yours with taxation, can you?

I don't care what measurement system local people use, as long as its coherent. As an engineer I prefer the metric system, but I respect the freedom of others to measure the world as suits their own purpose. But then, punishing British farmers for selling food by the pound in a street market is sooooo enlightened. Must really hurt you back in Greece, when someone uses non-metric units in remote countries. I guess that's one way one can measure your love of freedom.

Posted by Kalle (kafir forever) 2004-11-30 4:32:26 PM|| [http://radio.weblogs.com/0103811/categories/currentEvents/] 2004-11-30 4:32:26 PM|| Front Page Top

#24 Aris, I'm Swedish, not British.

Thanks for illustrating my previous post. You again offer a bunch of irrelevant side-comments, showing no interest in the principle of the EU Leviathan at work. Can't do that little shuffle of yours with taxation, can you?

I don't care what measurement system local people use, as long as its coherent. As an engineer I prefer the metric system, but I respect the freedom of others to measure the world as suits their own purpose. But then, punishing British farmers for selling food by the pound in a street market is sooooo enlightened. Must really hurt you back in Greece, when someone uses non-metric units in remote countries. I guess that's one way one can measure your love of freedom.

Posted by Kalle (kafir forever) 2004-11-30 4:37:13 PM|| [http://radio.weblogs.com/0103811/categories/currentEvents/] 2004-11-30 4:37:13 PM|| Front Page Top

#25 Well done, Kalle. Worth reading twice.

Posted by Mrs. Davis 2004-11-30 4:42:45 PM|| 2004-11-30 4:42:45 PM|| Front Page Top

#26 Attempt to post got deleted by crash. Rewriting.

Can't do that little shuffle of yours with taxation, can you?

Given how I know little-to-nothing about taxation, I can't do anything with taxation, and so can neither concede nor oppose your points concerning it. I also know little-to-nothing about monetary policy. Which is why you'll never see me commenting on flat rates-versus-progressive taxation nor you will ever see discussing the benefits vs cons of a strong or a weak currency.

I don't care what measurement system local people use, as long as its coherent.

I don't care what measurement system local people use either. But it's you who brought up the metric system, not I.

When you talked about cultural-political change, it's me who assumed you were talking about the big stuff like democraticization and political freedom, when you were in reality talking about metric system and standardization of labels. So I think that shows where your interest lies.

Must really hurt you back in Greece, when someone uses non-metric units in remote countries.

You keep on failing to get my main point. It wasn't the other countries of the EU that imposed something to the UK that it didn't want to do. This imposition on metric measurement was something that the EU and the UK agreed *together*. You would be much more accurate blasting the UK government for imposing the metric standardization on its *own* citizens.

But if you go on with your pretentious "respect the freedom of others to measure the world as suits their own purpose", then you should be insisting that national governments can't impose standardization of measurements either. As I said, the EU's not alone in this respect.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-11-30 5:56:14 PM|| 2004-11-30 5:56:14 PM|| Front Page Top

#27 You don't need to focus on every little detail of taxation policy in order to observe that the EU has been throwing its weight around, and using trade as a stick, to mess with the tax freedoms of various countries, whether in or out of the EU.

That you refuse to observe so and choose to hide behind an alleged lack of knowledge of taxation details directly confirms your lack of principles and absence of love for freedom.

If you see a thug beating up a lady in the street, do you denounce and stop the thug, or do you boorishly prattle about your lack of knowledge about the precise way he is hitting her?

Posted by Kalle (kafir forever) 2004-11-30 6:08:17 PM|| [http://radio.weblogs.com/0103811/categories/currentEvents/] 2004-11-30 6:08:17 PM|| Front Page Top

#28 As long as you keep on attacking my moral character, I can't remain calm in responding.

And if I don't remain calm in responding, I will be attacked as having "Arisified" the thread, and turning it into a discussion about me, when in reality it's ofcourse you who first turned it into a discussion about me.

So, so long: If you ever stop foaming at the mouth, let me know. I have no interest in playing anymore with a rabid dog.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-11-30 6:21:24 PM|| 2004-11-30 6:21:24 PM|| Front Page Top

#29 nice run, Kalle...heh heh

Posted by Frank G 2004-11-30 7:02:59 PM|| 2004-11-30 7:02:59 PM|| Front Page Top

#30 Kalle only got him up to #28. I've seen better.

Posted by Tom 2004-11-30 7:28:44 PM|| 2004-11-30 7:28:44 PM|| Front Page Top

#31 Kalle only got him up to #28. I've seen better.

Yeah, but I've graduated. That means that if I simply abandon a frustrating thread, I no longer just have frustrating schoolwork to look forward to instead. That's an added incentive to leave early threads bound to be meaningless.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-11-30 7:47:19 PM|| 2004-11-30 7:47:19 PM|| Front Page Top

#32 Frustrating schoolwork? Frustrating Kalle? You ain't seen nothin' yet -- wait until you see the Greek army!

Posted by Tom 2004-11-30 7:49:54 PM|| 2004-11-30 7:49:54 PM|| Front Page Top

#33 What constitutes "attacking [one's] moral character"? calling someone a coward? dishonest? lazy? manipulative? spineless?

Lacking principles merely makes one a pragmatist, not a character flaw. Not loving freedom merely makes one a statist, not a character flaw. Not directly, at least. Using cheap debating tricks merely makes one a sophist, not a character flaw -- but fair game.

Posted by Kalle (kafir forever) 2004-11-30 10:11:57 PM|| [http://radio.weblogs.com/0103811/categories/currentEvents/] 2004-11-30 10:11:57 PM|| Front Page Top

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