Article

2003-04-03 Iraq

Details Emerging of W. Va. Soldierâs Capture and Rescue

Archived material is restricted to Rantburg regulars and members. If you need access email fred.pruitt=at=gmail.com with your nick to be added to the members list. There is no charge to join Rantburg as a member.

Posted by Steve White 2003-04-03 01:07 am|| || Front Page|| [18 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 They better put her in for a Bronze Star with a V - fighting until out of ammo, despite serious wounds and broken limbs. Thats Valor.

Posted by OldSpook 2003-04-03 03:15:30|| 2003-04-03 03:15:30|| Front Page Top

#2 She is a real heroin. What a survivor!

Posted by anon1 2003-04-03 07:04:28|| 2003-04-03 07:04:28|| Front Page Top

#3 As a former WV hillbilly myself, I can assure you that those mountain gals are tough as nails. Private Jessica made an old Mountaineer proud. Montani semper liberi!

Posted by Bent Pyramid 2003-04-03 07:20:47|| 2003-04-03 07:20:47|| Front Page Top

#4 You think NOW would be all over this one, showing how women can compete in combat and all. No doubt we can expect this story to be buried by the left.

Posted by becky 2003-04-03 07:25:59|| 2003-04-03 07:25:59|| Front Page Top

#5 Speaking of medals, could one of the military types around here please explain the difference between Bronze and Silver Stars? My ex-brother-in-law has a Silver Star from Vietnam, but I've never been able to find out what he did that earned it.

Posted by Bent Pyramid 2003-04-03 07:37:23|| 2003-04-03 07:37:23|| Front Page Top

#6 If even half of this is true, I think we may see a Medal of Honor awarded here. They'll investigate, but I would expect a Silver Star, at the very least. If, in fact, she was stabbed, that indicates hand-to-hand combat to me. She deserves a big "Attaboy", a shiny gong, posting wherever she wants to go, and promotion a grade or two.

Posted by Chuck 2003-04-03 07:42:38|| [blog.simmins.org] 2003-04-03 07:42:38|| Front Page Top

#7 I suppose if she was as badly shot up as the account says, I'd think she was delirious when the pharmacist saw her. Even then, she had full faith and confidence in her teammates and her country's armed forces.

Posted by Ptah 2003-04-03 08:31:04|| [www.crusaderwarcollege.org] 2003-04-03 08:31:04|| Front Page Top

#8 Reports also say that she hasn't had anything to eat for 8 days. Anyone would be delirious after that.

Posted by Steve 2003-04-03 08:46:24|| 2003-04-03 08:46:24|| Front Page Top

#9 Bronze Star, Silver Star are combat valor awards. The difference between them is a matter of degree. The Silver Star is for more heroic action against greater odds than a Bronze Star. Neither is a decoration to be sneared at. I respect anyone that has one.

Posted by Old Patriot 2003-04-03 09:23:00|| 2003-04-03 09:23:00|| Front Page Top

#10 The Army's top awards:

Bronze Star: For heroic or meritorious achievement in connection with operations against an opposing armed force. A bronze "V" on the award signifies combat heroism distinguishing it from meritorious achievement awards.

Silver Star: For gallantry in action against an enemy of the United States while engaged in military operations. The required gallantry must have been performed with marked distinction.

Distinguished Service Cross: For extraordinary heroism while engaged in action against an enemy of the United States. The act or acts of heroism must have been so notable and have involved risk of life so extraordinary as to set the individual apart from his or her comrades.

Medal of Honor: For conspicuous gallantry and intrepidy at the risk of his or her life above and beyond the call of duty while engaged in action against an enemy of the United States. The deed performed must have been one of personal bravery or self-sacrifice so conspicuous as to clearly distinguish the individual above his comrades and must have envolved risk of life.

Posted by Thane of Cawdor 2003-04-03 09:33:19|| 2003-04-03 09:33:19|| Front Page Top

#11 Hate to rain on everyone's parade here, but firing your weapon until your out of ammunition is not cause for any decoration whatsoever. That is in the line of duty. She performed her duty just as we expect of our servicemen and women.

One must simply read the citations for CMHs and Silver Stars to fathom the superhuman effort and sacrifice required to be worthy of these awards. If you aren't left muttering, "How can someone do this?" it probably ain't CMH or Silver Star worthy. PFC Lynch does not rise to that level.

As we used to say on my ship, "Handshake in lieu of first award."

Plus, these decorations require corroboration by witnesses.

Posted by Dreadnought 2003-04-03 09:42:50|| 2003-04-03 09:42:50|| Front Page Top

#12 I'm curious to know if these multiple fractures she had were pre- or post-capture injuries. This should be one hell of a story once the full details come out.

Kudos to the Rangers and Seals!

Posted by Dar Steckelberg 2003-04-03 10:57:30|| 2003-04-03 10:57:30|| Front Page Top

#13 Hey guys, the kid done good. If I had to choose having my kids in a squad with Pvt. Lynch or Pvt. Funk( the idiot who was shocked to find that being a marine involved some violence), I'd take Pvt. Lynch any day.

She did her duty. What more can anyone ask, and what reward would be sufficient for her sacrifice. For the rest of her life when she enters the Chow Hall, Senior Master Sergents will smile and make a place for her at the table. Not because shes a woman, but because she stood and fought like a man.

Posted by Frank Martin 2003-04-03 11:29:21|| [varifrank.blogspot.com] 2003-04-03 11:29:21|| Front Page Top

#14 we'll have to wait for the full story, but some survivors of her unit were not captured. Five were, and will hopefully be released soon.

She's a supply clerk-type. No combat training beyond Basic. The following from the Medal of Honor quote above may very well apply:

For conspicuous gallantry and intrepidy at the risk of his or her life above and beyond the call of duty while engaged in action against an enemy of the United States. The deed performed must have been one of personal bravery or self-sacrifice so conspicuous as to clearly distinguish the individual above his comrades and must have envolved risk of life.

If the story holds up:

Beyond the call of duty. Check.
Personal bravery. Check.
Clearly distinguish the individual above his comrades. Check.

Who surrendered and who was taken prisoner? She was apparently taken prisoner. Don't know about anybody else, how hard they fought, or if they fought at all. No shame in surrendering against overwhelming odds, putting up a fight, though, goes back to the Medal criteria.

Posted by Chuck 2003-04-03 11:37:49|| [blog.simmins.org] 2003-04-03 11:37:49|| Front Page Top

#15 And, remember, this isn't about Pfc. Jessica Lynch. It's about a soldier that brought credit to the Army and the State of West Virginia. Politics will rule here, unless the initial story is completely bogus.

Posted by Chuck 2003-04-03 11:40:12|| [blog.simmins.org] 2003-04-03 11:40:12|| Front Page Top

#16 There are some folks going overboard. CMH? No way - unless she was carrying piles of 200lb soldiers and saving their lives, etc. The CMH is usually earned posthumously. This is not IMHO such a case.

Probably not a Silver Star either unless they have a lot of stuff about here affecting the battle (allowing parts of the 507 to escape because she was tying them up). I haven't heard anything about that so no Silver Star.

But some of you are even more wrong that those who would inflate the medal.

Dreadnought - I disagree with your assertions. Its not just emptying your ammo at the enemy - its hitting them (as she was alleged to do), and continuing to fight despite multiple wounds, broken bones and your comrades being killed all around you.

You seemed to gloss over that part. Thats what earns her the Bronze Star in my book.

And if it holds true that she continued to fight even when out of ammuition, recieving stab wounds, then there's your 'V' for valor.

There are plenty of men who have not or could not do as well.

I got my bronze star (but no V), and Valorous Unit award in the last Gulf War in addition to the campaign medal and the Kuwaiti medal. This supply clerk, assuming the story relayed is factual, deserves the Bronze Star and V device. Anyone saying otherwise is a fool in my opinion.

Posted by OldSpook 2003-04-03 11:55:31|| 2003-04-03 11:55:31|| Front Page Top

#17 Here's a sample of what you have to do to get the MOH:

Even our CO's are tougher than the Iraqi Republican Guards

Hollywood actually had to tone down the real-life exploits of Audie Murphy in the movie TO HELL AND BACK. The VC has -even higher standards.- I wish I could remember the name of the man who won 2 and was nominated for a 3rd, and -lived!-

That being said, it's likely that Pfc. Lynch will receive a higher decoration (Silver Star?) on political grounds, at least. If she's made of the same stuff as the gentlemen above (and it certainly looks like she is), she'd want to trade it back to get back the 11 who didn't make it.

Posted by Ernest Brown 2003-04-03 12:54:29|| [saturninretrograde.blogspot.com] 2003-04-03 12:54:29|| Front Page Top

#18 Actually three men won the VC twice. Here's a good link (look under "Unusual VCs").

http://www.chapter-one.com/vc/

Posted by Thane of Cawdor 2003-04-03 13:41:44|| 2003-04-03 13:41:44|| Front Page Top

#19 Major Smedley D. Butler, USMC won the MOH twice. Once in 1914 at Vera Cruz and again in 1915 in Hati. From what I hear he was one tough SOB.

Posted by Steve 2003-04-03 15:02:15|| 2003-04-03 15:02:15|| Front Page Top

#20 Old Spook,

Congrats on the Bronze Star. My travails during the Gulf War earned me nothing more than a campaign medal.

My point was mainly directed at those hurriedly writing up Silver Star and CMH citations. In fact, my direct quote was "This is not CMH or SS worthy." Firing at and hitting the enemy is great, but it is not the stuff of Medals of Honor.

We've seen exactly one news report on her story, and we know that most journalists know almost nothing about military affairs. Therefore, we basically know almost nothing.

And, by the way, to call people fools who have honest, but differing opinions is very poor form.

Posted by Dreadnought 2003-04-03 15:09:21|| 2003-04-03 15:09:21|| Front Page Top

#21 Poor Form? Guilty. I'm not a politician, nor am I a professiona writer. Im a former Cavalryman with an unfortunate tendency to be blunt. And I stand by my statement that *In My Opinon* _if_ the circumstances are true (beginning to look liek they may not be completely true) _then_ the PFC dde4serves the Bronze Star and the V, and that anyone disagreeing with that logic was a fool.

Now on to the circumstances:

More is coming out - there is now info saying she had no gunshot wounds, the broken arm is now a "broken collarbone from a probable fall".

Bronze Star might still be justified (for staying strong as a POW and fighting back while all alone) - but that V is looking less and less likely.

And I agree that the Silver Star is not justified unless they have proof that the PFC made an impact on the battlefield that helped the rest of their unit.

Anything higher than a Bronze Start would simply be politics in the absence of proof of Gallantry.

As for Smedley Butler - there was some controversy about his CMH for an assault on a fort in Haiti. He later became a left-side pacificst - or maybe "isolationist" is the better word. Go figure.

My Bronze Star was due to circumstance as much as anything else. Had I not been in the unit I was in, I doubt I would have had the accidental opportunity to earn it. And as I said, there's no 'V' on mine. During combat, but not under enemy fire at the time. I'm actually almost as proud of my Joint Service Commendation Medal in terms of what I did to earn it. My JSAM probably had more of a real-world impact, my ArCom a bit less so.

As for my AAM, that was kinda handed out too easily back during the cold war during border operations. I was just doing my job and they gave me a medal for it.

Thats why I hope they do give her the right medal deservedly - but not the wrong one undeservedly. I'd hate for her to have something as valuable as a Bronze Star with a 'V' for Valor, and feel about it the way I feel about my AAM.

Posted by OldSpook 2003-04-03 15:47:34|| 2003-04-03 15:47:34|| Front Page Top

#22 You guys can debate all you want on the direct merits of the appropriate military reward, and I would be the first to defer to your expert opinions. But PFC Lynch is now a media star, and it's certain the agents are lining up with the book contracts, movie rights, and appearance exclusives. And the politicians are right behind them. So everything hereon in is politically driven.

Besides, the psychological boost her rescue gave to the Coalition will be remembered as a turning point in the entire war. This news pumped the country, and suddenly all the "quagmire" story idiocy became irrelevant. The story is bigger than the star. And the anti-war movement just got run over.

Posted by john 2003-04-03 19:32:42|| 2003-04-03 19:32:42|| Front Page Top

#23 Thanks, C.H. Upham was the one nominated for the 3rd VC. He didn't get it for political reasons, but they rewarded him in other ways.

Posted by Ernest Brown 2003-04-04 08:34:26|| [saturninretrograde.blogspot.com] 2003-04-04 08:34:26|| Front Page Top

08:42 raptor
08:34 Ernest Brown
08:12 raptor
07:51 rg117
07:30 raptor
06:25 raptor
05:43 Deep Throat
03:32 anon1
01:19 Anonymous
01:12 Anonymous
01:06 john
01:04 Anonymous
01:00 TJ Jackson
00:49 TJ Jackson
00:43 Anonymous
00:41 TJ Jackson
00:39 Kalle (kafir forever)
00:33 TJ Jackson
00:30 Anonymous
00:28 TJ Jackson
23:50 Steve White
22:29 tu3031
22:23 True German Ally
22:18 True German Ally