Article

2003-12-23 Iraq

Ayatollah Sistani says that clerics must stay out of politics

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Posted by Dan Darling 2003-12-23 12:12:43 AM|| || Front Page|| [1 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 Nothing poisons a religion worse than it becoming a governing force. Look a the Roman Catholic Church in Europe, buying and selling indulgences, playing politics with princes, etc. It almost destroyed itself and europe with it.

Look at the witch trials in New England under the auspices of the protestant churches there, and the backlash against the churches in the area as a result.

Look at the misuse of the Shinto religion in Japan to bolster pseduo-Bushido and promote Japanses racism that resulted in things like Nanking, Bataan and the Japanese WW2 biological torture experiments, as well as mass suicides like at Okinawa.

And look at what the Wahabbis have done in Saudi: preverted Islam in the name of power, with the ultimate expression being Bin Laden and his warped views. And of course there's the mullah-ocracy in Iran.

They not only screw up the country they govern, but they also screw up the religion they are supposed to have at their core.

Maybe Sistani noticed this. Smart man if he did.

Posted by Anonymous 2003-12-23 4:17:17 AM|| 2003-12-23 4:17:17 AM|| Front Page Top

#2 Anon #1: History shows, as you point out, merging religious and political authority corrupts both, explains the "Render unto Caesar ..." remark. This creates a problem for Islam; politics and religion are intertwined by definition. Mohammed first made his mark as a military leader. It takes a wise Imam to walk the Line.

Posted by Glenn (not Reynolds) 2003-12-23 4:51:16 AM|| 2003-12-23 4:51:16 AM|| Front Page Top

#3 "When the clashes began I sent a special envoy to calm down the situation there and tried to solve the problems there. He succeeded in that."

"I'll make him an offer he can't refuse."

Posted by Steve 2003-12-23 8:32:40 AM|| 2003-12-23 8:32:40 AM|| Front Page Top

#4 Absolutely correct, people. When you merge religious and secular power, the church becomes merely a path that ruthless and hypocritical men use to climb to power. Happened to the Papacy. Cardinal Clinton? *shudders* Noooo thank you!

Let the Church teach men to listen to God, and challenge those who claim to be God's voice.

Posted by Ptah 2003-12-23 10:14:09 AM|| [http://www.crusaderwarcollege.org] 2003-12-23 10:14:09 AM|| Front Page Top

#5 You're all correct, of course, but the problem is that Islam is not only a religion, but it's a "political" system of government, too with shar'ia and the ulema.
If the clerics and imams can reach a point where they're comfortable keeping mosque and state separate (as in Turkey), then maybe we can get somewhere!

Posted by Jennie Taliaferro 2003-12-23 10:25:23 AM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com] 2003-12-23 10:25:23 AM|| Front Page Top

#6 Not only has Sistani reached the point of keeping clerics out of govt, he would I think, claim that its been that way for a long time, at least among Shia, despite whats happened in Iran. In fact for most of the history of the muslim world the rulers were secular princes, though they were influenced by the Ulema (which basically means the clerical class, with overtones of connection to the urban merchant class ) The Sharia is a system of religious law that also regulates aspects of personal and social life deemed secular in Christianity - in that way its very similar to Jewish Halachah. The Jews, lacking a state till recently, and that state being founded by secularists, have done reasonably well at ignoring aspects of the Halachah that impinge on statecraft. The muslims have done that more recently, but until the rise of the fundies in the last 40 years they were making strong progress. Lets not confuse the claims of the fundies with the actual course of history in the muslim world since 1800.

Posted by liberalhawk 2003-12-23 11:06:25 AM|| 2003-12-23 11:06:25 AM|| Front Page Top

#7 Gee, libhawk, you forgot whole swathes of the 19th and 20th Century that involved Islamic governments of the ulema and shari'a in which Muslim clerics drove the ideology of the state, usually involving violence--there's the entire Middle East thing from 1921 or so until today, then there's the Mahdi murdering Gen. Gordon at Khartoum at the turn of the last century,
the Ayatollah's violent takeover of Iran in '79, the split-off of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan from India in 1949, and "new" 20th Century countries like Egypt putting "we must all be Islamic" in their constitution, which they are thinking of getting rid of now, and so on and so on.
I know you're trying to make us feel all warm and fuzzy about radical Islam, but check with Tom Friedman before you try to channel him.

Posted by Jennie Taliaferro 2003-12-23 1:01:30 PM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com] 2003-12-23 1:01:30 PM|| Front Page Top

#8 The muslims have done that more recently, but until the rise of the fundies in the last 40 years they were making strong progress.

The Muslim Brotherhood began, when, exactly?

Pakistan ("the land of the spiritually pure") splintered from Indian in what year?

Posted by Robert Crawford 2003-12-23 1:23:18 PM|| [http://www.kloognome.com] 2003-12-23 1:23:18 PM|| Front Page Top

#9 Most of the islamic heartland was ruled from 1800 to 1918 by the Ottoman empire, which WAS trying to modernize (see Bernard Lewis). Pakistan was founded as a SECULAR state, it was Muslim in the same sense that secularist Israel was Jewish. Egypt has been secularist for decades, and in fact Sayd Qutb (you DO know who he is, dont you?) died in an Egyptian prison. The ayatollahs takeover of Iran was part of the "last decades I was speaking of"

RC- The MB was founded in Egypt in the 1920's, but had little influence then. Egyptian MB first really burst on the scene with the assasination of Sadat in 1981, though the Egyptian state had been fighting it for some time before then.

Remember, "making strong progress" does not mean there was no resistance, or that there was unanmity.

And RC, as above, Pakistan was founded as a secular state in 1947.

and of course im not trying to get anyone warm and fuzzy about radical islam. Im trying clarify that not all muslims are radical muslims - something which our great President, George W. Bush, says all the time. And his good pal James Baker would probably agree.

Posted by liberalhawk 2003-12-23 3:19:16 PM|| 2003-12-23 3:19:16 PM|| Front Page Top

#10 "An increased awareness among Central Asian Muslims of their religious inheritance or the practice of the tenets of Islam presents no intrinsic danger to Western energy interests in the region. Islam as a faith need not hinder close economic relatio ns between Western firms and Muslim states, as seen in long-term partnerships with many Islamic governments."

from a study by the James A Baker III Institute for Public Policy

Posted by liberalhawk 2003-12-23 3:27:35 PM|| 2003-12-23 3:27:35 PM|| Front Page Top

#11 "We're very quick to talk about Islamic fundamentalism and I think that is the wrong way to speak of it. Saudi Arabia is an Islamic fundamentalist state, but it is a friend of the United States and very important to the United States. And the national interests that we have in the Gulf I think we've demonstrated in -- in the aftermath of Kuwait. So, I always say, and I'm very careful to say whenever I speak of it, radical Islamic fundamentalism, because that really is what we're talking about. And it truly is antithetical to the West--to democratic values, free market principles, and to the principles and values we believe in. So, we should oppose it to the extent that our national interests require."

James Baker, Middle East Quarterly, 1994

Posted by liberalhawk 2003-12-23 3:30:27 PM|| 2003-12-23 3:30:27 PM|| Front Page Top

#12 So it turns out James Baker not only doesnt see all muslims as radical islamic fundamentalists - he doesnt even see all islamic fundamentalists as radical - the Wahabism practiced by the Saudi state is just fine with him. Well on that I would respectfully disagree - it was the Wahabism practiced by the Saudi state that subverted the secular state in Pakistan, among other places.

Posted by liberalhawk 2003-12-23 3:34:08 PM|| 2003-12-23 3:34:08 PM|| Front Page Top

#13 I don't know why you are so "queer" for James Baker, but I wish you'd give it a rest!
You've totally wandered off the topic of this thread (Typical Leftist).
We're not concerned with James Baker here (who is Pro-Israel and anti-IslamoFascism) but with this cleric and whether or not his stance for a secular government in Iraq will "catch on" with other Islamic clerics.
It's no secret by now that Saudi Arabia has been exporting radical Wahhab Islam around the world for years and their chief targets for money and support have been mosques, clerics and madrassas.
You libs with your "5 Minute Hate" Du Jour (like James Baker right now) need to get over yourselves.
Your boy Al Gore lost in 2000, we owe 9/11 largely to the inaction and cowardice of Bill Clinton and the Dimocrats are going to lose BIG in 2004. Thank God!

Posted by Jennie Taliaferro 2003-12-24 8:01:00 AM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com] 2003-12-24 8:01:00 AM|| Front Page Top

#14 Oh, wait! I do know why you Lefties are queer for James Baker--because he "helped" Bush "steal" the election in 2000.
You know what? And I mean this sincerely:
You rabid Dimocrats are CRAZY and need to get professional help NOW.
Don't wait another minute.

Posted by Jennie Taliaferro 2003-12-24 8:03:55 AM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com] 2003-12-24 8:03:55 AM|| Front Page Top

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