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2003-12-23 Afghanistan

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Posted by Super Hose 2003-12-23 12:16:57 PM|| || Front Page|| [2 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 God Bless Joya for standing up and saying what the men there wouldn't. I pray she doesn't go the way of so many others before her.

Posted by Charles 2003-12-23 12:24:20 PM|| 2003-12-23 12:24:20 PM|| Front Page Top

#2 Lincoln talked at Gettysburg, also for about two minutes, and only got eight ~~profound~~ sentences out. I'm missing something here. Not having elsewhere to look, I went back to the source link. Her critics ~~crap~~ carp about communists, but there's no quote of her advocating communism. Are all anti-Islamofascists communists? Or is this more primeval than that?

Posted by Glenn (not Reynolds) 2003-12-23 12:52:47 PM|| 2003-12-23 12:52:47 PM|| Front Page Top

#3 I thought the Islamists were the fellow travelers of socialists and communists loke Arafat and Assad.

Not in Afghanistan, where the word "communist" doesn't conjure up images of French politicians and students who sympathize with the Islamist program, but rather brings back images of the Soviet invasion and occupation.

Posted by Robert Crawford 2003-12-23 1:09:52 PM|| [http://www.kloognome.com] 2003-12-23 1:09:52 PM|| Front Page Top

#4 Glenn- its a mix it think - in afghanistan in the '60s and '70s the SU was a big presence with foreign aid, etc. Most modernizers, feminists, etc were, IIUC, either members of the Communist party or fellow travelers of one sort or another. While the Party split into factions whose relationships are too complex to contemplate (think the usual leftie proclivity for splitting on ideological lines combined with the Afghan proclivity for changing sides, tangled personal loyalties, etc) at least some of which ended up more or less anti-Soviet, the Islamists would naturally tend to lump them all together. Apparently communist front groups still exist in Afghanistan, and are among the most bitter critics of the warlords and Northern alliance mujahadin - RAW (revolutionary Afghan Women, or whatever) would be one example.

Is it fair to call this woman a communist with no particular evidence? Of course not. But we should think back to how effective a tactic McCarthyism was here. And if lumping every feminist and secularist in with communism is McCarthyism, arguably lumping in Rahabani and other Mujahadin in with Al Qaeeda is no less.

I certainly agree that this womans defiance is a good thing, and the positive response is a good thing, but I would caution that Afghan politics is particularly messy and (as RC states) very much influenced by the memory of the Soviet occupation and who was on which side then, which are of rather greater significance to Afghans than Iraq or the World Trade Center.

Posted by liberalhawk 2003-12-23 1:35:56 PM|| 2003-12-23 1:35:56 PM|| Front Page Top

#5 But we should think back to how effective a tactic McCarthyism was here.

*sigh*

So effective the fellow it's named for ended up abandoned by his own party and in disgrace. So effective that, today, accusations of McCarthyism have a more chilling effect on speech than actual McCarthyism did.

Posted by Robert Crawford 2003-12-23 2:09:42 PM|| [http://www.kloognome.com] 2003-12-23 2:09:42 PM|| Front Page Top

#6 I din't intend to steer us into the McCarthyism ditch. I think that the chief reason that the Communist regime was a miserable failure in Afghanistan was that the proponents tried to strip away the Afghan culture. I think the Taliban made the same mistake. From the way I read the following passage:

Malalai is a famous 19th century Afghan woman who is credited with turning the tide in the battle of Maiwand, against the British. When the morning of the battle began with numerous casualties and Afghans began surrendering or running away, Malalai took up a sword to fight the British herself, singing an Afghan song, and inspired her countrymen to keep fighting.

I don't think that culturally the Afghan women are subservient or the story of Malalai would not exist. The "women as cattle" strikes me as an import that hopefully will be rejected.

Posted by Super Hose 2003-12-23 2:44:39 PM|| 2003-12-23 2:44:39 PM|| Front Page Top

#7 Perhaps she is/was a commie, but what other choices did she have in Afghanistan fair?

Posted by Shipman 2003-12-23 2:52:12 PM|| 2003-12-23 2:52:12 PM|| Front Page Top

#8 'Nother DP... meaning I don't think the Junior League was setting up a lot branches.

Posted by Shipman 2003-12-23 2:53:25 PM|| 2003-12-23 2:53:25 PM|| Front Page Top

#9 So that's what happened to the Kabul Debutantes' Ball...

Posted by Fred 2003-12-23 3:11:26 PM|| 2003-12-23 3:11:26 PM|| Front Page Top

#10 RC - McCarthy fell when he went to far, attacking the Army. and yes, its not real effective HERE anymore, but then we havent felt threatened by Communism in some time. Afghanistan was ruled by them, fairly brutally for some time. So its not unnatural that it would appeal there.

Shipman - well yeah, that was the problem - there really wasnt a liberal democratic tradition in Afghanistan.

SH- Good point - thats why its a good thing - the question will be how to institutionalize what youve pointed out.

Posted by liberalhawk 2003-12-23 3:24:50 PM|| 2003-12-23 3:24:50 PM|| Front Page Top

#11 libhawk: Note my rhetorical "Are all anti-Islamofascists communists?" Considering myself to be anti-anything-fascist and simultaneously anti-communist (Marx was a dreamy visionary hopelessly deluded by Rousseau) and anti-Stalinist (Stalinists are both communists and fascists) I meant that as it read. And as far as McCarthy is comcerned, he was off the deep end, but post-Gorby we now know many of those he went after were traitors. In the Constitutional sense of the word. . .. ...
MUST RANT
Can't hold it back. Goddamned motherfucking atavistic Islamoturd assholes are offended because some woman dared open her mouth. Anybody disagree with that assessment?

I wanted to express it without profanity but I can't.

Posted by Glenn (not Reynolds) 2003-12-23 3:34:16 PM|| 2003-12-23 3:34:16 PM|| Front Page Top

#12 Glen - he called them criminals. Cant hardly fault them for not liking that. And yes, they DID fight a bitter fight for years against the communists. And then AGAINST the Taliban. Remember October 2001?? I do. We were working together witht the Norther Alliance. Some folks here in the West denounced Dubya for doing that, claiming the Northerne Alliance was "taliban lite" Well, in a country where the taliban didnt let girls go to elementary school, the mujahadin want MARRIED women to get their husbands permission before going to college. In a country where the Taliban didnt let women have any public role, the mujahaddin are ok with women voting, and sitting in the loya jirga - they just get upset when said women call them criminals. Taliban lite indeed. That was a slur, and it still is. Now i certainly hope that the power of Rahabbani and Abdul Sayaf is limited - they ARE the most reactionary pols in that country - but they are also much abused, and often unfairly. THEY risked their lives and lived in caves, fighting the Soviets, and eventually brought down the evil empire, while we ran TV specials about Poland. They deserve a tad more understanding.

Posted by liberalhawk 2003-12-23 3:45:23 PM|| 2003-12-23 3:45:23 PM|| Front Page Top

#13 should be SHE called them criminals.

Posted by liberalhawk 2003-12-23 3:45:52 PM|| 2003-12-23 3:45:52 PM|| Front Page Top

#14 LH, I don't think that we need to institutionalize anything for the Afghans. There appears to be a necessary confrontation by Afghans with the imported wahabbist cult from Pakistan.
From what I have read about the Leninists that returned from indoctrinization in Russia, I think they were morons. Lenin adapted Marxism to the situation in Russia, and Mao adapted Leninsm to China. The Afghan comminusts pissed everyone off by refusing to deviate from the Soviet model.

The trick was to get the Afghan people to recognize that they were being forcing to comform to Arab cultural norms that were not inherent to Islam.

My recommendation to anyone wishing to force Afghans to conform is to wear kevlar.

Posted by Super Hose 2003-12-23 4:30:38 PM|| 2003-12-23 4:30:38 PM|| Front Page Top

#15 Please forgive me, but since we've already gotten our feet muddy in the McCarthy ditch...
"...we now know many of those he went after were traitors. In the Constitutional sense of the word..." I know I'm probably preaching to the choir in this venue, but I just like to see those words as often as possible. The 'usual media suspects' only tell us about the extremism of McCarthy, but they are quite muted about the many instances where he was proven right. Sorry for going off topic.

Posted by Les Nessman 2003-12-23 11:42:28 PM|| 2003-12-23 11:42:28 PM|| Front Page Top

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