Article

2004-11-04 Europe

Europe Allies Extend Olive Branch to Bush

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Posted by Fred 2004-11-04 12:27:09 AM|| || Front Page|| [8 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 Stamp this shit "Junk mail not accepted. Return to Sender", put it in a bottle and toss it off the Brooklyn Bridge.

Bush will now be in office after Chirac and Shroeder are long gone. Let's see if France and Germany offer us someone to deal with who has a brain, real ethics, and a value system more advanced than Socialist Prison Bitch.

Meanwhile, just smile and say nothing... especially to the MSM press.

Posted by .com 2004-11-04 12:53:11 AM|| 2004-11-04 12:53:11 AM|| Front Page Top

#2 I am expecting them to move towards us._{_{_not!}} Germany can't afford not to but it won't. Their unemployment has moved down to only 10.1%. France and Chirac are playing Germany for fools. The MSM in Europe will not let up on their anti-US propaganda it will only get worse.
Europe will continue it's decline.

Posted by Sock Puppet of Doom 2004-11-04 1:25:41 AM|| [http://www.slhess.com] 2004-11-04 1:25:41 AM|| Front Page Top

#3 Chirac addressed the letter to "Dear George"? How utterly insulting: he is using the 'tu' form that, when not used between intimates (which he most definitely is not), is used to speak to children and social inferiors. While George may not pick up on this, I am certain that his parents, who spent so much time representing this country abroad, will.

Posted by trailing wife 2004-11-04 3:41:22 AM|| 2004-11-04 3:41:22 AM|| Front Page Top

#4 Good point, Trailing Wife, but he could hardly use the "vous" form, since that would imply Bush as a superior non-parental adult: an admission that he couldn't make in front of his countrymen...

Posted by Ptah 2004-11-04 5:28:16 AM|| [http://www.crusaderwarcollege.org] 2004-11-04 5:28:16 AM|| Front Page Top

#5 In his response will Bush use the formal "thank you" form used between civil countries or the "f*%^ you" form more familiar to enemies that seek your destruction?

Posted by Mrs. Davis 2004-11-04 6:32:30 AM|| 2004-11-04 6:32:30 AM|| Front Page Top

#6 Delusional Old Europe. A variant of BDS I suppose.

Why would Bush's first days of the next four years raise the possibility of surrender to their corrupt, cowardly ways? are they fools? do they think Americans are fools?

Ah, yes, I see, sorry. At this stage, statements from Old Europe are as influential and significant as statements from North African failed states.

Posted by Kalle (kafir forever) 2004-11-04 7:37:39 AM|| [http://radio.weblogs.com/0103811/categories/currentEvents/] 2004-11-04 7:37:39 AM|| Front Page Top

#7 France has proved itself: useless, pointless, unreliable, and untrustworthy. And diplomatic language and nuance notwithstanding, that will be remembered for a long time.

Posted by A Jackson 2004-11-04 7:44:13 AM|| 2004-11-04 7:44:13 AM|| Front Page Top

#8 I don't think Powel, Rice or Chenny will miss the improper form of address.

Posted by Sock Puppet of Doom 2004-11-04 7:50:42 AM|| [http://www.slhess.com] 2004-11-04 7:50:42 AM|| Front Page Top

#9 Euro elites understand New York City and L.A., what they do not understand is the vast USA in between the coasts. That most of them cannot comprehend how Bush was re-elected is proof that they do not understand "us" as a whole.

Posted by Jarhead 2004-11-04 9:45:42 AM|| 2004-11-04 9:45:42 AM|| Front Page Top

#10 Jarhead-Yep. The hot flash of disagreement over the Iraq War is transitioning into a multiple-fronted, deep cultural rift. We'll see the real nature of our divisions emerge. This must happen (to help us identify true allies and compatible governments), but I think our disagreements will be explicit, public, and very confrontational.

Posted by Jules 187 2004-11-04 10:02:20 AM|| 2004-11-04 10:02:20 AM|| Front Page Top

#11 My wife the French teacher said vous was most certainly the proper form of address. Tu was too fimilar. Bush and Chirac are not friends or familiars so tu is improper.

She also has felt directly the decline in realations with France. Students who have told her the reason they are not in second or third year french is "My dad won't let me."

So bite me Jacques Chirac.

Posted by Sock Puppet of Doom 2004-11-04 10:05:02 AM|| [http://www.slhess.com] 2004-11-04 10:05:02 AM|| Front Page Top

#12 In his response will Bush use the formal "thank you" form used between civil countries or the "f*%^ you" form more familiar to enemies that seek your destruction?

Worse than that, Mrs Davis: he'll reply in English

Posted by BH 2004-11-04 10:09:57 AM|| 2004-11-04 10:09:57 AM|| Front Page Top

#13 Jules, I'm afraid your right. We are coming to a head with France/Germany, I hope all involved can be statesmen-like about pushing forward on the issues but I am not holding my breath.

Posted by Jarhead 2004-11-04 10:10:43 AM|| 2004-11-04 10:10:43 AM|| Front Page Top

#14 A short reply:
"My Dear Jacques - your use of "tu" was inappropriate
thanks
W, as in Winner"

Posted by Frank G 2004-11-04 10:17:43 AM|| 2004-11-04 10:17:43 AM|| Front Page Top

#15 Back from some wonderful autumn days in the mountains, first my heartfelt congratulations for making the right choice, at the right time. I wasn't much in doubt though and chose to avoid all the election hype.

America has always spearheaded new ideas, new developments. Let's see what Europe will do this time.

Euro elites of course don't understand the vast USA, not even the U.S. coastal elites do. Go to the German countryside of Southern Bavaria and ask people there... they have been voting conservative for the last 60 years and they certainly understand the people of Texas, Wyoming and Nebraska better than New Yorkers. Next time George Bush should visit a small Bavarian town instead of Berlin and he'll meet a Germany where he would feel right at home.

That's an approach I'd recommend for anyone interested in rebuilding transatlantic ties.
It may not always seem so but folks, we need each other. In these dangerous times we cannot allow the rift to widen. This would amount to giving aid and comfort to the enemy. It may seem that America and Europe are drifting apart when it comes to common interests and values. But we face challenges that should make these differences appear insignificant.

Re German unemployment: The East keeps dragging us down. We could have needed a "Bush approach" in 1990. It would have hurt for a few years but things would look much better now. In Southern Bavaria unemployment is around 5-6%

Re Chirac: Yes, using a "tu" in a diplomatic exchange (barring private conversations) is considered extremely condescending in France. I don't know if you remember how furious de Villepin (who was said to be a man) was when Jack Straw addressed hoim with his first name.

Posted by True German Ally 2004-11-04 10:22:26 AM|| 2004-11-04 10:22:26 AM|| Front Page Top

#16 Va te faire foutre, Chirac! Tu es un perdeur! L'Arbuste ne renrdra pas a toi.

Posted by Steve from Relto 2004-11-04 10:28:07 AM|| 2004-11-04 10:28:07 AM|| Front Page Top

#17 Welcome back, TGA. I was wondering where you were! Glad you had a nice holiday.

Now that the election is decided, I think the high level of vitriol had better decline. We will only prevail if all the people of good will in the world are united.

Posted by Seafarious 2004-11-04 10:36:21 AM|| 2004-11-04 10:36:21 AM|| Front Page Top

#18 Respectfully, TGA, do our European allies think that they have to contribute good will and monetary/military commitment to the equation, or is it all to come from America? Do you believe that a few significant disagreements over principles can be soothed or compromised? What do we do with the radically different notions about when force can and must be used?

This rift bothers me a lot. 15 years ago, I was such a big proponent of Europe. I loved all things UK, got a degree in French, lived in Latvia teaching English. I cannot see many common interests any more. Terrorism, of course, but the response to it?

Posted by Jules 187 2004-11-04 10:45:12 AM|| 2004-11-04 10:45:12 AM|| Front Page Top

#19 Thank you for the insight, TGA. I live in the mountains of east Tennessee and I can tell you the gripe people have here is not with the German people themselves but with the politicians. I have some friends who are veterans of World War II and they told me almost to a man they were surprised and impressed with the German people. They felt much more at home in the German countryside than in France. The Germans were industrious and hard-working whereas the French were all waiting around for some one else to clean up the damage. I agree with you we need each other. The world is so much smaller now than any time in the past and we have many challenges to a free way of life that we all need to work together to overcome. Thanks again for your support.

Posted by Deacon Blues 2004-11-04 10:52:53 AM|| 2004-11-04 10:52:53 AM|| Front Page Top

#20 Now that the election is decided, I think the high level of vitriol had better decline.

The high level of vitriol would have been good to decline regardless of whether before or after the elections.

Europe is being treated by most of Rantburg as if it was Iran or Syria. "Thank you"s to the occasional UK and Hungary and Poland and Estonia and Italy and Bulgaria and pretty much the majority of the European nations, immediately followed by an either inconsistent or revelatory contempt towards the entire continent.

The rift will widen, because (the way I see it) the Bush administration and most of its supporters seem to consider the rift a *good thing*, to my great dismay. Europe's too proud to yield in allegiance and America's too proud to even consider an alliance of *equals*.

Yes, if Western civilisation is to survive, USA and Europe need to be united. Small chance of that, alas. Most Rantburgers even treated half of their own nation as if it was the enemy. Which btw I think was one of the reasons for Osama Bin Laden's last message -- Iraq having already driven apart Europe and US, now he was trying to seed rifts internally between blue and red US states.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-11-04 10:56:50 AM|| 2004-11-04 10:56:50 AM|| Front Page Top

#21 "Dear Jack -

Got your note, but it was in some disgusting foreign language that no self-respecting American understands, so we used it as tinder to start the pyre we're burning freedom on. Feel free to stop by and toss another Moslem on the barbie!

Love - W"

Posted by mojo 2004-11-04 10:56:57 AM|| 2004-11-04 10:56:57 AM|| Front Page Top

#22 The rift will widen, because (the way I see it) the Bush administration and most of its supporters seem to consider the rift a *good thing*...

Why do you think that?

An alliance of equals is great, but in terms of sacrifice, some are more equal than others.

Posted by Jules 187 2004-11-04 10:59:24 AM|| 2004-11-04 10:59:24 AM|| Front Page Top

#23 TGA, well said, but Jules reflects the Jacksonian perspective. It's going to take two to tango. I'm sure W is ready, willing and able.

Posted by Mrs. Davis 2004-11-04 11:01:41 AM|| 2004-11-04 11:01:41 AM|| Front Page Top

#24 Mrs D-I don't have a good understanding of what Jacksonianism means, but if you're saying each side must contribute, then yes, that's what I am getting at.

Posted by Jules 187 2004-11-04 11:10:52 AM|| 2004-11-04 11:10:52 AM|| Front Page Top

#25 thanks for your input Aris

Posted by Frank G 2004-11-04 11:13:20 AM|| 2004-11-04 11:13:20 AM|| Front Page Top

#26 Jules> Just my impression. Certainly people here persistently seem to want to forget the German troops stationed in Afghanistan for example. Such intentional forgetfulness is not the action of people who want the transAtlantic rift to go away.

I've seen comments against Europe spoken casually here that resemble only the comments of the most fanatically rabid anti-American Europeans in vitriol. Most of the other Europeans atleast claimed that it was the Bush administration that they hated -- contempt I've seen in Rantburg for Europe is undisguised against the whole of the continent, its countries, its peoples, its politics, everything about it. You make exceptions for individuals like TGA and JFM, you make exceptions for specific countries that aided you in Iraq... and then it's back to the general contempt of Europe.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-11-04 11:14:45 AM|| 2004-11-04 11:14:45 AM|| Front Page Top

#27 Frank G> Don't thank me again, Frank. If you don't have anything to say to me, please do try to ignore me.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-11-04 11:16:19 AM|| 2004-11-04 11:16:19 AM|| Front Page Top

#28 Aris-I see it as a question about the world views and political solutions that come from Europe's political leaders. If the European people share those views, then the world views of the people, yes.

Posted by Jules 187 2004-11-04 11:17:41 AM|| 2004-11-04 11:17:41 AM|| Front Page Top

#29 Half of your own country share those "world views" and "political solutions". So what does that say about rifts? If Europe and USA are so close together that the European attitude is still well within the spectrum of American politics?

The contempt for Europe I've seen is nothing but a version of the contempt I've seen for Kerry, his voters, and the Democratic party in general. Even the occasional idiotic call to bomb Europe are resembled by occasional idiotic calls for civil war like "if Kerry wins, the red states should break away, and we'll have the support of army too".

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-11-04 11:29:30 AM|| 2004-11-04 11:29:30 AM|| Front Page Top

#30 well now - that's not very "united" of you, now is it?

Posted by Frank G 2004-11-04 11:29:59 AM|| 2004-11-04 11:29:59 AM|| Front Page Top

#31 Aris-It says that half the American people buy those world views and political solutions. Lucky for them, the other half is fighting for the security of the world that the first imagine is delivered to them with no more effort than a wish.

If you're sensing contempt from some writers toward Europe, you might internalize what that does to you and understand how that is multiplied 100 fold in Americans, who are always being sh*t on in Euro public opinion. This is why I made the point about good will from both sides. Had a look at Drudge's report today? The cover of the Brit newspaper? Is that not trashing America? Has it not been so for at least 4 years, unrelentingly?

Good will and cooperation won't come when one side is continuously insulted and its politics not directly argued, while the other side expects to be treated with courtesy and an open ear nevertheless.

Posted by Jules 187 2004-11-04 11:37:53 AM|| 2004-11-04 11:37:53 AM|| Front Page Top

#32 Aris, I think most Rantburg contempt is reserved for the "political Europe", for failed leaders who don't live up to what could be expected from free democratic countries.
Tony Blair had the guts to stand for what he believed in... and should he lose the next elections that's the risk he is willing to take.

That's the difference between a politician and a statesman.

I think it's the same with Bush. He risked a lot and in most countries he would have lost big time.
The Daily Mirror might think otherwise bit maybe 59 million Americans aren't that dumb. It could just be that they recognize a statesman even if he sometimes stumbles over his words. They know talk is cheap.

We will find out in the next four years how not dumb those voters actually were.

If Europe is too proud to "yield in allegiance" then it has two choices: Equal America in economic and military strength or get out of the way. It sounds cruel but the real world is cruel, too.

As long as we Europeans chose to "outsource" our security, we have only ourselves to blame.

Europe could equal America if it really wanted to.

Posted by True German Ally 2004-11-04 11:40:12 AM|| 2004-11-04 11:40:12 AM|| Front Page Top

#33 TGA's got it

Posted by Frank G 2004-11-04 11:41:30 AM|| 2004-11-04 11:41:30 AM|| Front Page Top

#34 Frank G> I would be happy if a bare *fraction* of Rantburgers had as many positive comments to make about Europe or the EU as I've made in the past about the US. E.g. I can't remember even hearing any American Rantburger ever conceding that Europe also cares about human rights and freedoms just like the US does.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-11-04 11:41:54 AM|| 2004-11-04 11:41:54 AM|| Front Page Top

#35 Aris, yes Europe cares.
And America ACTS.

Posted by True German Ally 2004-11-04 11:45:08 AM|| 2004-11-04 11:45:08 AM|| Front Page Top

#36 TGA> Good comment. But it doesn't solve the problem of division and contempt between the continents. They can have contempt for "political Europe", same way they can have contempt for the blue states in the USA. They may disagree with the politics and even have contempt for the politics. And they may even be right in that contempt.

But it's not helping. Arrogance isn't helping to heal a rift even if it's justified arrogance. And politics shouldn't be there to make you feel good but in order to help your country and your civilisation.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-11-04 11:48:32 AM|| 2004-11-04 11:48:32 AM|| Front Page Top

#37 I do distinguish as TGA sez, between the chattering classes (elites, media, EU nabobs, etc.) who are highly anti-american, and the people who we've always had a bond with. Europe has a long history of HR concerns, but lately has seeme to have lost their moral compass (much as many of our LLL has) in being able to judge good and bad. All Abu Grahib all the time is an excellent example. The condemnations of Gitmo is another. When someone has proven themselves unworthy of respect in their judgements, you get the derision and cynical STFU attitudes you see here. Anyone who could support Arafat for a Peace Prize is such an object of ridicule and derision, and justifiably so.

Posted by Frank G 2004-11-04 11:52:01 AM|| 2004-11-04 11:52:01 AM|| Front Page Top

#38 36-It would certainly go a long way to reduce contempt on our end.

Aris-"Justified arrogance"...do you see how eaily insults roll off your tongue about Americans?

Posted by Jules 187 2004-11-04 11:53:54 AM|| 2004-11-04 11:53:54 AM|| Front Page Top

#39 Arrogance is never justified.

Posted by True German Ally 2004-11-04 11:58:35 AM|| 2004-11-04 11:58:35 AM|| Front Page Top

#40 Aris-"Justified arrogance"...do you see how eaily insults roll off your tongue about Americans?

Which insult was that? That I called you "arrogant"? My reference is still to the people sharing a specific attitude, not all Americans. Chirac is also extremely arrogant, which is as destructive when he shows it as when Rumsfeld shows it.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-11-04 11:58:50 AM|| 2004-11-04 11:58:50 AM|| Front Page Top

#41 TGA does have it. Maybe we (R-burgers in general) could be more distinct in our rants toward the EU Political Leadership/media elites and the average European citizen so as not to put the average German, Italian, Brit, Spaniard in the same category as the political leadership/media conglomerates we are lambasting. This especially goes for their servicemen who are fighting along side us in the WOT. I (and I'm sure the rest of posters) have nothing but respect for those who are willing to put their lives on the line shoulder to shoulder w/us Yanks though we don't note this in every post.

I think we tend to say "Europe" as a whole for the sake of brevity in posting, not to lump together all the folks of the entire continent w/the political leadership - though that may in fact also happen from time to time depending on the poster. I can't speak for everyone, there are some Euro govt's I really dislike but in general when I've traveled abroad I've found a lot more in common with the locals then I think they even thought possible. Ireland and England were a particular pleasure last time out.

I think Jules sums up how many of us feel toward a lot of the news orgs over the pond. Most of us would rather have good will on both sides of the pond, and I agree, it takes both sides to reach across and act like adults. However, as most can attest (at least over here), the Anti-American bias in the Euro press dates back well before Bush. A lot of times it's subtle, but it's still there.

Posted by Jarhead 2004-11-04 11:59:29 AM|| 2004-11-04 11:59:29 AM|| Front Page Top

#42 however, when 58% of europeans polled want to see a "weakened US role" in the world, don't expect us to care about their root causes anymore....

Posted by Frank G 2004-11-04 12:05:14 PM|| 2004-11-04 12:05:14 PM|| Front Page Top

#43 I disagree with the above. IMO we and the Euros are more culturally similar than we think but are inevitably going to drift apart politically because of the cold hard facts of diverging geostrategic positions and capabilities, especially as regards the middle east. It's not a matter of leadership; this is a longer-term, deep structural shift.

Re social and cultural convergence, we and the European publics are converging in nearly every area expect the role of religion in public life. Demise of the traditional family. Demographic challenges brought about by delayed (or eschewed) childbearing and greater longevity. Collapsing welfare and pension systems.

Also note the great shifts in the direction of deregulation (esp in France) and privatization and economic liberalization generally that Europe has made in the last two decades. Also note the transatlantic convergence, at least among the majority white populations here and in Europe, regarding crucial social areas such as marriage patterns and family structure. Historians will probably see the decline of the traditional family, the delay in childbearing, the rise in childless couples and unmarrieds, as one of if not the most revolutionary social changes in our age. It is the cause of a demographic catastrophe in the making. And this change is as pronounced in America as in Europe--more so for low-immigration Europe than for us, but make no mistake, this trend hits the white US population as well.

Regarding political divergence, the simple fact is that we and the Europeans will be sharply divided on the middle east so long as 1) Israel and the palestinians are at war and 2) the Euros refuse to show any inclination to apply sticks to Iran instead of just carrots, carrots that are in any case of far more benefit to EU corporations than to the mullahs. No amount of goodwill or dialogue or efforts at understanding can overcome the fact that the middle east divides us and will do so for another decade at least. Historians

Posted by lex 2004-11-04 12:05:15 PM|| 2004-11-04 12:05:15 PM|| Front Page Top

#44

"I beg you Madame, please tell the President to forgive me for being such a putz."

Posted by Mark Espinola 2004-11-04 12:09:57 PM|| 2004-11-04 12:09:57 PM|| Front Page Top

#45 The grand transatlantic pissing match-- who's more arrogant, Rumsfeld or Chirac, nyah-nyah nyah-nyah, nyah nyah-- is totally beside the point. Look beneath the surface. Israel divides us, Iran divides us.

Even Blair and Straw have been acting in direct opposition to US policy and interests on these two crucial issues. No one, not the most gifted diplomat or statesman, can eliminate this deep cleft that will likely remain for decades.

Posted by lex 2004-11-04 12:10:40 PM|| 2004-11-04 12:10:40 PM|| Front Page Top

#46 it pains me greatly to write this, as I like Jules and many other US liberals am a deeply ingrained Europhile in most cultural matters (exc attitudes toward immigration) and would dearly like to see US-European solidarity. I do not wish to hurt TGA's or any other Euro-comrade's feelings. But the simple fact is that Old Europe is less relevat to our security situation and needs than are India, Russia, Japan and of course China. It's long past time the US elite shifted its focus from London, Paris and Berlin toward the new axis of history that runs from Moscow to Islamabad, New Delhi, Beijing and Tokyo. I would be very surprised if this does not happen in Bush's second term. A key indicator will be whether we move not just troops but senior diplomatic staff our of Europe. We could and should transfer about half our PAris-based diplomats to ASia.

Posted by lex 2004-11-04 12:16:10 PM|| 2004-11-04 12:16:10 PM|| Front Page Top

#47 Aris, how many European troops stopped the genocide in Rwanda? how many in Darfur?

Posted by Kalle (kafir forever) 2004-11-04 12:22:36 PM|| [http://radio.weblogs.com/0103811/categories/currentEvents/] 2004-11-04 12:22:36 PM|| Front Page Top

#48 Jules,
The book in which Walter Russell Mead fully explores the Jacksonians, as well as the Hamiltonians, the Wilsonians and the Jeffersonians is Special Providence A magazine article on the Jacksonians was published in National Interest. A large portion of the basis for Mead's theories is Albion's Seed which I strongly recomend to you if you have not read it. You will look at this country differently after haveing read it.

Posted by Mrs. Davis 2004-11-04 12:29:31 PM|| 2004-11-04 12:29:31 PM|| Front Page Top

#49 Is it possible Chirac wrote a letter because he wasn't sure a phone call would have been answered?

Posted by Stephen 2004-11-04 12:46:17 PM|| 2004-11-04 12:46:17 PM|| Front Page Top

#50 "We will be unable to find satisfying responses to the numerous challenges that confront us today without a close trans-Atlantic partnership," wrote Chirac.
Okay, no satisfaction for Chirac. Works for me.

Posted by Tom 2004-11-04 1:01:04 PM|| 2004-11-04 1:01:04 PM|| Front Page Top

#51 I was hoping TGA would stop by.

The point I would like to remake is how in the run up to the invasion how EU support could have averted that. It would have sent saddam a msg that the gig was up. But France, Germany, Russia, China, had a tit in their mouth, sweet cream.

I'm sure that more Germans (Afganistan) than french would have been willing, well no french, or canadien, chumps.

Our efforts in the war on jihad needs to be waged together. But unless Germany, france are ready to lead, well hells bells.

I could care less whether the EU wants to be a socialist vunderland. Just keep making quality products and I'm a fan. But hey, this is for real now.

Posted by Lucky 2004-11-04 1:28:01 PM|| 2004-11-04 1:28:01 PM|| Front Page Top

#52 Thanks for the tips, Mrs. D, those look really interesting! I'll have to get to the library this week.

Posted by Jules 187 2004-11-04 2:02:54 PM|| 2004-11-04 2:02:54 PM|| Front Page Top

#53 I agree that we could benefit a bit from a little more precision and a little less overgeneralization when we talk about Europe, or France, or Turkey; not just in the complaints, but also in the compliments. I've noticed people writing about ancient history a lot, as though a modern Dane meditated on the exploits of his Viking ancestors and was just waiting for adequate provocation to grab an axe and go berserker on Islamists.
While it is much shorter to type "The french were bribed by Saddam" than "Chirac's cronys and big business interests were bribed by Saddam," I think it is worth the extra electrons.
It would make this site seem a bit more respectable to the leftists I try to send over here to find non MSM news. Rants and bigotry I prefer to leave to them. :-)

Posted by James 2004-11-04 2:10:43 PM|| [http://www.idontknowbut.blogspot.com] 2004-11-04 2:10:43 PM|| Front Page Top

#54 James, I would agree in principle that one ought to distinguish government policy and popular ideas, BUT a huge majority of the French people are siding with their intellectuals and their government. All polls in the last three years have demonstrated that.

Hence it is valid to damn the whole country and invite any rational minority to leave -- for their own sake. Until and unless a new majority arises in France, why would one want to pretend that they are on our side? French anti-Americanism is a fact, an ideology that has been on the rise in the last decades.

Posted by Kalle (kafir forever) 2004-11-04 3:04:30 PM|| [http://radio.weblogs.com/0103811/categories/currentEvents/] 2004-11-04 3:04:30 PM|| Front Page Top

#55 James this site is totally respectable. There was/is perfidy being waged against the USA in this war. I'm not asking anybody, other than Canada (shame), to step up and do squat. Other than do something prudent. And don't scheme against America that is trying to fight a hot war, with boys on the line.

Posted by Lucky 2004-11-04 3:24:17 PM|| 2004-11-04 3:24:17 PM|| Front Page Top

#56 Forgive my run on sentences. I'm in blockhead land.

Posted by Lucky 2004-11-04 3:34:17 PM|| 2004-11-04 3:34:17 PM|| Front Page Top

#57 No, it's not valid to damn the whole country, not even France. French people following their government by a huge majority? I doubt that. The average French thinks that all politicians are corrupt and a**holes, left or right.

Which means they are not really dumb.

Posted by True German Ally 2004-11-04 3:47:54 PM|| 2004-11-04 3:47:54 PM|| Front Page Top

#58 Lucky-You may not ask anybody else to chip in and help, but you can be sure the US will be expected to chip in on every other issue of international reach for sure. The something-for-nothing dynamics in international politics has got to go.

Posted by Jules 187 2004-11-04 3:49:52 PM|| 2004-11-04 3:49:52 PM|| Front Page Top

#59 I'll dissent on France. When have they been an ally that aided us? 1781 and then? With a track record that long, I think it is not just the government that opposes us.

Posted by Mrs. Davis 2004-11-04 3:58:14 PM|| 2004-11-04 3:58:14 PM|| Front Page Top

#60 The French oppose themselves, especially the Parisians :-)

Posted by True German Ally 2004-11-04 4:30:42 PM|| 2004-11-04 4:30:42 PM|| Front Page Top

#61 Perhaps the Chirac loving Euro's should get a mirror before they go off about the harmful nature of arrogance.

Posted by 2b 2004-11-04 4:36:10 PM|| 2004-11-04 4:36:10 PM|| Front Page Top

#62 LOL TGA

Posted by Mrs. Davis 2004-11-04 4:38:09 PM|| 2004-11-04 4:38:09 PM|| Front Page Top

#63 TGA: It may seem that America and Europe are drifting apart when it comes to common interests and values.

And it will only get worse as the EU expands. The ultimate reason is American support of Israel. Europe has still not resolved its problem of antisemitism. It is to be expected from the Muslim immigrant population, but it certainly doesn't help matters when the born-and-bred Europeans join in as well.

Posted by Rafael 2004-11-04 5:12:32 PM|| 2004-11-04 5:12:32 PM|| Front Page Top

#64 TGA: French people following their government by a huge majority? I doubt that.

Maybe not. But the bottom line is, what do they think of the US? And in their response, they reflect their government, and the government reflects them.

Posted by Rafael 2004-11-04 5:15:47 PM|| 2004-11-04 5:15:47 PM|| Front Page Top

#65 Aris, we most certainly do not hate Europeans around here (ok, maybe the French are a special case, but still.....)
However, if Europe wants to be treated as an equal, they've got to bring more to the table than what they have been bringing.
I noticed an erosion of respect starting around the Bosnia situation. As I recall, at first we were not wanted in there, and then after the Europeans couldn't calm it down, guess who they came to for help. It was the first time I remember hearing things like "How many damn times do we have to go over there (Europe) to solve their damn problems?"
And it's gotten worse. There's still a lot of ties, but the ties are getting stronger across the Pacific and in Latin America now. We trade more with them, more people from the Pacific and Latin America are here as immigrants than from Europe, and it's now seen as a smarter move to study their languages rather than European ones. (Yeah, I know Latin America speaks Spanish, and Portuguese in Brazil. Spanish is still seen as a good thing to study....and it ain't because of any affinity for Castille.)
There still is a cultural affinity for Europe, but it is fading as we become more and more tied to those newer economies that produce things that the Continent can't or won't (new technologies, hardware, software, you get the idea).
To more and more of us, Europe seems like a big museum where artifacts of the past are preserved. The new, exciting stuff is going on in India, in China, and Singapore.

Posted by Desert Blondie 2004-11-04 5:27:12 PM|| 2004-11-04 5:27:12 PM|| Front Page Top

#66 Rafael... True Anti-Americanism is often (not always) connected with Anti-Semitism (big Jewish money etc). But I know lots of Germans who are desperately anti-Bush and still love and admire the USA. And are not antisemites at all.

I was wondering about the Daily Mirror cover (about those 50 million "dumb" Americans.

I couldn't find a cover like this in Germany today.

Posted by True German Ally 2004-11-04 5:41:28 PM|| 2004-11-04 5:41:28 PM|| Front Page Top

#67 "How many damn times do we have to go over there (Europe) to solve their damn problems?"
Exactly. It isn't "you're European, we dislike you"; it's our rapidly growing impatience with the imperious, flawed political views that several European leaders try to force down America's throat. Chirac insists that war is never justified. Not only does this widely accepted Euro view indicate that Europe hasn't learned from the disasters of apathy and inaction of its past, you actually want to castigate us for using our military today to rescue you and others from the predictable outcomes of this deadly philosophy. Not only is that ingratitude and mental oblivion, it's a long-term picking off of our people, at no cost to you. That is making Americans mad.

Posted by Jules 187 2004-11-04 5:43:51 PM|| 2004-11-04 5:43:51 PM|| Front Page Top

#68 I don't think Chirac says that "war is never justified". Only wars that France doesn't like and benefit from are not. Compris?

Vive la difference!

Posted by True German Ally 2004-11-04 5:50:03 PM|| 2004-11-04 5:50:03 PM|| Front Page Top

#69 As I recall, those were his exact words. But you make a good point-you always gotta remember the context. ;)

Posted by Jules 187 2004-11-04 6:08:08 PM|| 2004-11-04 6:08:08 PM|| Front Page Top

#70 I need a submerger class in Spanish... and probably English too according to Smithy.

Posted by Shipman 2004-11-04 6:28:50 PM|| 2004-11-04 6:28:50 PM|| Front Page Top

#71 I couldn't find the quote and his name together. My mistake.

Did find this, though:

Chirac stated his position categorically, "War is an admission of failure" and "We consider that war is always, always, the worst solution."

Link

Posted by jules 2 2004-11-04 8:35:40 PM|| 2004-11-04 8:35:40 PM|| Front Page Top

#72 I would be happy if a bare *fraction* of Rantburgers had as many positive comments to make about Europe or the EU as I've made in the past about the US.

Um, I can thank Europe for, during my visits there (except for Germany), providing me with many reasons as to why my ancestors left?

Posted by Pappy 2004-11-04 11:41:02 PM|| 2004-11-04 11:41:02 PM|| Front Page Top

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