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2004-12-15 Home Front: Politix
The Bash Rumsfeld Pig Pile Builds - Bill Kistrol Jumps On
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Posted by Capt America 2004-12-15 12:50:20 AM|| || Front Page|| [3 views since 2007-05-07]  Top

#1 CA,according to progressive radio talk show host Ed Shultz's list of prominent politican's military service, Bill Kristol did not serve.
Posted by GK 2004-12-15 2:44:10 AM||   2004-12-15 2:44:10 AM|| Front Page Top

#2 Who has any use for Kristol? For a pundit, he's insanely hung up on being a politician: embarassing at best. Too bad, since some of the staff at his magazine do interesting stuff.
Posted by someone 2004-12-15 2:50:22 AM||   2004-12-15 2:50:22 AM|| Front Page Top

#3 the herd
Posted by 2b 2004-12-15 4:52:30 AM||   2004-12-15 4:52:30 AM|| Front Page Top

#4 Someone else said we need Patton back to slap a bunch of civilians. I agree, but think poor Patton would probably break his hand slapping so many people with thick skulls.
Posted by Robert Crawford  2004-12-15 9:22:31 AM|| [http://www.kloognome.com/]  2004-12-15 9:22:31 AM|| Front Page Top

#5 Kristol's been in love with McCain for years....
Posted by Frank G  2004-12-15 10:34:55 AM||   2004-12-15 10:34:55 AM|| Front Page Top

#6 Simmer down, y'all. No one will ever accuse Rumsfeld of an excess of tact. Or respect for his co-workers. Or humility and a willingness to subordinate his ambitions to the needs and interests of his bosses (just ask Nixon and Ford).

The truth is that Rummy's record is a mixed bag: outstanding in some areas (the brilliant war plan executed last year), very good in others (the long overdue force restructuring-- not original but good for him for making it happen), and downright shitty in other areas too obvious to mention. So whether you think this precocious and arrogant pupil deserves a B+ or a B- or a C+, he certainly does not deserve an A. Fair-minded friends of the Bush admin are perfectly justified in criticizing his overall performance.

Who's more important, Rummy or the C-in-C?
Do you think Truman was wrong to rein in MacArthur?

Rummy's time and usefulness are nearing their end. It would be counter-productive to sack him now, but my bet is that Bush will let Rummy go quietly sometime late next year or in early '06 after the Iraqi government has been constituted.
Posted by lex 2004-12-15 11:17:44 AM||   2004-12-15 11:17:44 AM|| Front Page Top

#7  The truth is that Rummy's record is a mixed bag
And what about the record of Rummy's neocon advisors in the DOD? I'd say F when it comes to Iraq.

Don't kid yourself. Kristol is a political animal and he is not so much enamored with McCain as he is with his neocon friends. Kristol sees the writing on the WH walls. The Prez almost lost the election over Iraq. Someone is going to pay because the Boss is obviously and rightly PO'd. Kristol and his bureaucrat pals are positioning Rumsfeld to take the fall so they are not the ones to get the axe and lose their positions of influence in the WH.
Posted by Angash Flinelet3775 2004-12-15 12:15:16 PM||   2004-12-15 12:15:16 PM|| Front Page Top

#8 Troll cleanup, aisle 6.

Angash-Joker: Kristol doesn't work in the White House. He's never been part of Bush's circle, in fact has not held an executive branch or other government post in 12 years, and has little to no influence on the Bush admin.

Run along now, little one
Posted by lex 2004-12-15 12:27:19 PM||   2004-12-15 12:27:19 PM|| Front Page Top

#9 Scape. Goat.

(BTW, Anyone remember Kristol's backing of--hold on--Lamar Alexander?)
Posted by eLarson 2004-12-15 12:42:10 PM|| [http://larsonian.blogspot.com]  2004-12-15 12:42:10 PM|| Front Page Top

#10 Hey, lex, everybody's bag be mixed, eh?
Posted by .com 2004-12-15 12:50:07 PM||   2004-12-15 12:50:07 PM|| Front Page Top

#11 'deed it be, .com
Posted by lex 2004-12-15 12:52:29 PM||   2004-12-15 12:52:29 PM|| Front Page Top

#12 Kristol doesn't work in the White House. He's never been part of Bush's circle, in fact has not held an executive branch or other government post in 12 years, and has little to no influence on the Bush admin.
I never said Kristol worked in the WH or held a gov't post. Read before you lather and blather a response. Describing Kristol as a political animal does not mean I thought he ran for a political office. Get a dictionary.

Here's a head's up in case you have not heard this bit of info before, lex, William Kristol is editor of the Weekly Standard a rather important conservative publication. Kristol is a highly visible proponent of the neocon Wilsonian philosophy, which had as its centerpiece the idea that bringing democracy to countries in the ME starting with Iraq will bring about peace in the ME. Iraq has not been a ringing endorsement of the idea that all men/women want freedom and liberty, so rather than have the neocon philosophy discredited and have plans for future interventions in Syria and Iran go up in smoke the neocons need to find a fall guy for what's happening in Iraq. You can call my observation trollism, if it hurts your inner sensibilities to face the reality of political games within the GOP, but that's whats happening with the recent public dumping on Rumsfeld by high profile Republicans like McCain and Kristol.
William F. Buckley Jr., founder of National Review, opposes the kind of "Wilsonian interventionism" advocated by leading neoconservatives. "The kind of Wilsonianism that Bill Kristol advocates, I think, is wrong [because] it over-stretches our power [and] takes insufficient account of the institutional requirements for genuine reform, to simply impose a constitution on Iraq or anybody else," Mr. Buckley recently told Human Events, a conservative weekly. "Philosophically, either [Mr. Buckley] was right that building an American world empire was against conservative principles, or Bill Kristol, Max Boot and Paul Johnson — with some National Review and Wall Street Journal support — were correct that a new American colonialism was required to bring peace and democracy to the world," Mr. Devine says. "Even President Bush had said: 'America has no empire to extend or utopia to establish' — but neoconservatives were still trying to push him there anyway."
http://www.washingtontimes.com/national/20030520-102249-1923r.htm
Posted by Angash Flinelet3775 2004-12-15 1:12:04 PM||   2004-12-15 1:12:04 PM|| Front Page Top

#13 Your information's as lame as your logorrheic style. Kristol is not an insider in this admin. He's no more influential than Pat Buchanan or David Gergen.

W's camp consists of, in descending order of influence, 1) his long-time advisors he brought with him from Texas: Rove, Card, Hughes; 2) the national security team he assembled during the campaign in early 2000, centered on Condi and Wolfowitz; 3) the cabinet he assembled after the election; and 4) prominent academics and mideast experts such as Bernard Lewis, Fouad Ajami, Amir Taheri et al.

In none of these circles do you find ANY of the Weekly Standard editors or contributors. Kristol and Kagan and their ilk are peripheral figures who have never written a single speech, as far as I'm aware, or met with any white house official, let alone Bush, for this admin.

Please do run along now. Sarcastic 1,000 word regurgitations don't cut it on Rantburg.
Posted by lex 2004-12-15 2:05:05 PM||   2004-12-15 2:05:05 PM|| Front Page Top

#14 I hope the outrage keeps building. I can not understand how anyone is able to defend Donald "MacNamara" Rumsfeld, the Architect of Quagmire. His re-appointment makes me extremely pessimistic that the Bush Administration will ever make the kinds of strategic modifications that are needed to start making progress in the Iraq campaign.
Posted by waiting for sanity in DC 2004-12-15 3:18:01 PM||   2004-12-15 3:18:01 PM|| Front Page Top

#15 Waiting, Angash-
What should have been done differently in Iraq (please remember to consider how your suggestions for better alternatives may introduce additional problems that didn't happen because of the way he did it).

What strategic modifications do you suggest that Rummy would oppose?
Posted by Jules 187 2004-12-15 3:36:29 PM||   2004-12-15 3:36:29 PM|| Front Page Top

#16 Again, Rumsfeld's record is mixed, as is every DefSec's, but on the most important issues-- restructuring and realigning our footprint, toppling Saddam's regime-- he's done a good job. There's no reason to ditch him hefore the Iraqis have a new government and that government has its sea legs. Once that occurs, then it may make sense to bring in someone who's more diplomatic and less of an ass-kicking SOB, someone who can continue to drive the restructuring process Rummy launched.
Posted by lex 2004-12-15 4:06:58 PM||   2004-12-15 4:06:58 PM|| Front Page Top

#17 "Waiting for Sanity" seems to be hyperventilating. In 18 months, me thinks, the quagmire he/she refers to will be primarily Iranian. Our esteemed ayatollah brethren will face two functioning, Islamic-populated, representative governments, one on either side; a empowered Shiite competitor and a restive population predominately under 35. Oh yeah, there’s also Syria, the fading remnant and last rat-hole of Baathist fascism.
Posted by DaveK  2004-12-15 4:23:34 PM||   2004-12-15 4:23:34 PM|| Front Page Top

#18 Waiting, Angash-
What should have been done differently in Iraq
I never said anything should be done differently in Iraq. Don't you read before you post?

Here's what I am saying to make it easier for those who are abstract thinking challenged. GWB almost lost the election due to Iraq. GWB has an MBA for good reason-he possesses a businessman's mind. He delegates authority and he relies on info from managers in his corporation. Iraq was presented to him as an easy first domino country to embrace democracy in the ME. The main proponents of this theory were the neocon wing of the GOP. Iraqis have not embraced freedom and democracy as was forecast to GWB. So no doubt GWB is PO'd with the managers who sold him the bill of goods about Iraq. Someone's got to pay the consequences for the screw up.

And while it's true that Kristol is not a neocon working in the current Administration he is in the vanguard of the neocon approach to foreign policy and there are a number of neocons with influence in the Admin as well as in the GOP.

And it looks like Rumsfeld is going to be the sacrificial lamb. Whether anything would be different in Iraq whether Rumsfeld had 250,000 instead of 150,000 is questionable. Maybe Iraqis themselves are not good democracy material.But rather than allow GWB consider various reasons for the situation in Iraq that almost cost him the Oval Office, I think neocons like McCain and Kristol are doing the pre-emptive thing which is to dump the mess on Rumsfeld's shoulders and suggest that everything would be way different and wonderful in Iraq were it not for Rumsfeld's miscalculations, as opposed to the neocons miscalculations.

Do you get it now? It's called infighting within the GOP.

Your information's as lame as your logorrheic style. Kristol is not an insider in this admin
And you are thick. Consider thinking beyond your tired and old mantras and seeing the big picture for a change.
Posted by Angash Flinelet3775 2004-12-15 4:43:26 PM||   2004-12-15 4:43:26 PM|| Front Page Top

#19 Rather than being obsessed about what "almost lost the election", you should be concerned about your own survival in the WoT. Most anti-war folks that visit this site seem to imagine that their pristine mental scenarios of positive outcomes would happen, if only America would be more diplomatic with its allies. That is delusion. You have a poor understanding of motivations of various players in this world and of human nature generally, much worse than Rumsfeld's. Of course, with magical thinking, all you have to do is have strong communications skills, a greasy palm when it comes to Europe, and and all the bad people in the world will go away. Right?

I asked you in all seriousness what your alternative was to going to war in Iraq. You don't have one-you just want to throw flames. You need to learn how to argue without being insulting, and incidentally, when you argue, you need to offer AN ALTERNATIVE. You do not persuade.
Posted by Jules 187 2004-12-15 4:57:13 PM||   2004-12-15 4:57:13 PM|| Front Page Top

#20 [bedtime story]
Once upon a now, there is a mighty team...

Bush is the Head Coach. He just got tipped for a 4 year no-cut contract by The Fans. The PEST / BDS sufferers are in a serious tizzy.

Rummy's the Offensive & Defensive Coordinator, a very full plate indeed, who serves solely at the pleasure of the HC. Right now he's designing and installing a new offensive scheme - the Pro Set.

The HC can shuffle staff in or out almost as he pleases - and has just done so, for example replaceing Tenet, the Chief Scout, with Goss. He could easily do the same with Rummy, if he bought into the armchair BS he gets in fan mail every day. Apparently he doesn't. I would like to see him get rid of the Bus Driver, Mineta, but he hasn't seen fit to agree. I'll survive it. He did ax the Publicist, Powell, and replaced him with Dr Rice - who has a great record of her own and actually believes in the team - which I applauded.

Many fans have lost control of their faculties and bodily functions from advanced BDS and seek ways to wound the HC, since they can't get him fired by the Fans At Large. Some honestly think the OC/DC has failed in his job. When the HC agrees, he'll be gone.

One priceless aspect of Rummy's performance is his handling of post-game press conferences. No one, in my lifetime, has done it so deftly and with such aplomb. Talking waaay down to a hostile Lilliputian illiterati of self-declared Messengers of God, Rummy has demonstrated how to bitch-slap them from a great height, send them reeling, have them clamor for more, and get away pretty clean. It is just about the best entertainment available for those of us who see the Fifth Column for what it is: a tool of the competition. For this howlingly funny ego assassination, he will never be forgiven by some until he is brought low. Such is the state of what passes for journalism, today.

Meanwhile, he and the HC are busily viewing film, hammering out the next game plan, and learning from past mistakes. The hard lesson here is that every game is The Sudden Death Super Bowl. It's a Single Elimination Tournament. Lose and it's all over - no next game and no next season.

The HC "gets it" far better than the ankle-biters who would love to tell him how to run things, but would be correctly terrified of the responsibility. Let him handle his staff - his record is, since he's still there and we're still here, damned good.
[/bedtime story]
Posted by .com 2004-12-15 5:21:52 PM||   2004-12-15 5:21:52 PM|| Front Page Top

#21 Will you tuck me in?

;)
Posted by Jules 187 2004-12-15 5:27:47 PM||   2004-12-15 5:27:47 PM|| Front Page Top

#22 You don't have one-you just want to throw flames
I don't throw flames others do which you curiously overlook.

In case you hadn't realized it the subject being discussed is Kristol dumping on Rumsfeld and some RB'ers disappointment in Kristol's article. I offered a possible explanation for why Kristol (and Mccain) are enaging in the "its all Rummys fault" line. I believe that they are dumping on Rumsfeld's so called military mismanagement in Iraq because it diffuses blaming their political wing of the GOP for miscalculations as to the lack of consistent support from the majority of Iraqis after Saddam was removed.

Now your taking this thread in an entirely different direction, implying that I am anti-war, that I am the one too lame to see the need for a WOT. What's your problem? I never said I was anti-war or anti-WOT. I never said I had better suggestions for Iraq. All I suggested is that Rumsfeld is being painted unfairly perhaps as the reason for problems in Iraq. And to deny that the Iraq situation was GWB's achilles heel in the election makes me wonder what planet you are living on. Of course it almost cost GWB the election. What did Kerry and the Dems zero in on time after time after time? What issue did pre-election polls show voters most concerned about re: GWB if not the Iraq War?

Personally I think Rumsfeld is a good DOD minister. He has done as good a job as anyone could do in Iraq considering the limited choices he had and the unpredicatable situation he faced. Choosing to have a more limited number of military in Iraq would be the way I'd go if I were in his position because American troops are resented by 2/3 of the Iraqis no matter how much good they would do in that country because they are American. Having 250,000 troops there would have increased the Iraqis resentment and drive more of them to join the insurgency.

I think McCain is grandstanding because he's hoping to get Rummys job to get a higher profile for the 2008 GOP prez candidacy and because he's a neocon just like Kristol is and neither want any changes in GWB's foreign policy approach to the ME. Rumsfeld is not a neocon so he's expendable in their eyes. Also they need to get a neocon as head of the DOD now that Cond Rice is head of state and has gained more influence over GWB regarding foreign policy in the ME. Rice is not a neocon either.
Posted by Angash Flinelet3775 2004-12-15 5:28:09 PM||   2004-12-15 5:28:09 PM|| Front Page Top

#23 It's called infighting within the GOP

You and Andrew Sullivan are deluding yourselves that the parties remain powerful entities independent of the president and his inner circle. That organizational model that was discredited and discarded by both major parties over a decade ago. As both Clinton and Bush43 have shown, today, when your party wins the White House, it's the president who utterly dominates the party-- especially in the foreign policy sphere-- not the other way around. In fact the party doesn't even have much influence on the president's priorities or behavior. This was so for the Dems under Clinton and it's so for the Repubs under Bush.

If Bush wants Rumsfeld to stay, then Rumsfeld stays. What McCain or anyone else outside Bush's circle says in the NYT or WaPo or on CNN is of little consequence.
Posted by lex 2004-12-15 5:31:15 PM||   2004-12-15 5:31:15 PM|| Front Page Top

#24 Kristol's influence is greatest on the MSM bloviators. Neither he nor Sully nor Gergen nor Buchanan nor any of the other media-politicos will influence Bush's priorities or major decisions. He's no more influential than the major bloggers.
Posted by lex 2004-12-15 5:33:55 PM||   2004-12-15 5:33:55 PM|| Front Page Top

#25 Jules 187 - Lol! Did you eat your choco-mint and then brush your teeth? If you did it the other way around, get your heinie back in there and brush! Tell you what - tomorrow we'll go to one of the ritzy hotels and have brunch - won't that be fun?
Posted by .com 2004-12-15 5:34:02 PM||   2004-12-15 5:34:02 PM|| Front Page Top

#26 Angash-Is that what McCain and Kristol are doing-"it's all Rummy's fault"?

I don't doubt that there are politicians in this world happy to let others take the fall for them.
But I just don't see the problems in Iraq as something "blamable". It's a miracle that Iraq went as well as it did, considering the caustic coverage in the international media and the incredible odds against the coalition. A lot of this argument sounds like Monday-morning quarterbacking to me. I could be wrong-maybe he could have done something differently, better. I just wonder what that would have been.
Posted by Jules 187 2004-12-15 5:41:29 PM||   2004-12-15 5:41:29 PM|| Front Page Top

#27 Folks, he who dare lead incurs the arrows. In the wise words of The Joker (really Jack Nicholson for those of you who thought he was for real), this town (US miliary) needs an enema.

This fact is never more evident than with the former generals who pontificate for the MSM, who were opposed to Iraq (and Afganistan for that matter). Like trained monkeys, these former generals tell the MSM talking heads what they want their audience to hear -- that Rumsfeld is a shithead idiot.

Comparing Rumsfeld to McNamara is really condescending. Vietnam was run by Johnson; the generals in theatre are running the Iraq and Afganistan conflicts. I don't see Generals McCain or Kristol in service, do you?
Posted by Capt America  2004-12-15 5:45:52 PM||   2004-12-15 5:45:52 PM|| Front Page Top

#28 By popular demand:
Top Ten Things That Should Have Been Done Differently in Iraq.

10. Securing the weapons and ammunition.

9. Maintaining civil order.

8. Guarding the oil pipelines.

7. Patrolling the borders.

6. Preventing the use of cities as sanctuaries.

5. Training, protecting, and establishing a credible Iraqi police force.

4. Taking the blame for mistakes, instead of blaming the military.

3. Increasing the production of armor kits.

2. Planning for any contingencies other than a rose parade.

Drum roll, please...

1. SENDING ENOUGH TROOPS TO DO THE JOB.
Posted by waiting for sanity in DC 2004-12-15 7:07:54 PM||   2004-12-15 7:07:54 PM|| Front Page Top

#29 It's all becoming clearer, now... More meds for the terminally insane convinced they are magikally prescient and would've done sooo much better - at everything!

Oh yeah, next time we'll look to you for all our Military needs.

You could kick it off with a detailed plan for Iran. The usual workup of options, resource reqs, etc. will be fine. Obviously, this will be a slam dunk for someone of your talents, expertise, and infallibility. Knock yerself out. No, really, use the hammer provided.
Posted by .com 2004-12-15 7:17:55 PM||   2004-12-15 7:17:55 PM|| Front Page Top

#30 lex: You seriously think OIF and its local followups are going to be our last military operations in the ME?
Posted by someone 2004-12-15 7:27:14 PM||   2004-12-15 7:27:14 PM|| Front Page Top

#31 and.

Destroy all of the Republican Guard.

Bomb the dikes early.

Give the expats air cover.

Don't pretending that the Turkish Brigagde is anything other than a political prop.

Launch all the P-40s on warning from Oahu radar.

Not rolling the damn plans for the Maryland Invasion in a cigar.

Forget trying to defend Long Island against a professional army with superior naval transportation.

Forget Fort Necessity it's not worth it.

Posted by Shipman 2004-12-15 7:42:33 PM||   2004-12-15 7:42:33 PM|| Front Page Top

#32 Oppps forgot.
Fire GA Custer after Washoe.
Posted by Shipman 2004-12-15 7:45:03 PM||   2004-12-15 7:45:03 PM|| Front Page Top

#33 Yeah, and we should have figured out about the hedgerows in Normandy, should have gone with a heavier tank than the Sherman, should have had better intelligence on the Ardennes, shouldn't have attacked through the Huertgen Forest -- damn, didn't we lose WW2?
Posted by Matt 2004-12-15 8:34:16 PM||   2004-12-15 8:34:16 PM|| Front Page Top

#34 Oh, and above all, Halsey should not have turned north. What was the dude thinking?
Posted by Matt 2004-12-15 8:40:49 PM||   2004-12-15 8:40:49 PM|| Front Page Top

#35 should have brought a crystal ball.
Posted by Jarhead 2004-12-15 9:18:38 PM||   2004-12-15 9:18:38 PM|| Front Page Top

#36 For 10 years the size of the military had been downsized. The sanctions against Iraq were not doing diddly squat, the UN was stalling with the help of France, Germany, and Russia. Iraq was a nexus of terrorists and money. We could not wait. the 4ID got screwed out of a Turkey transit, so weeks were lost on a Northern Front. Shit happens. Rummy pushed and made it happen.

Look at McClellan in the Civil War. Trained and trained and drilled and drilled. Never used the Army. Lincoln wanted to borrow it since Little Mac did not really use it. Lincoln made it happen eventually. He was hated for it. He stepped on toes and made personnel changes until things went his way on his mission.

Rummy is fighting the established military and conducting a war on Islamofascism. He has a three front war when he is dealing with the dogpile from Congress. McCain should be ashamed of himself. He may have disagreements with troop strength with Rummy. He does not have to air out his laundry in public. Rummy has to work with what he has in resources now.
Posted by Alaska Paul  2004-12-15 10:32:39 PM||   2004-12-15 10:32:39 PM|| Front Page Top

#37 A small nit: McCain is no neocon. He is awf'ly noisy, though.

Oh, and the issue Kerry was really pushing was fighting the War on Terror, of which Iraq is only the second major battle.

Remember all the "War is not the answer" people? They said the same thing about Afghanistan. They'll chant it again when our kids with things that go boom and bang head toward Syria (the most likely scenario: we've been reading lately about Assad training insurgents, then sending them across the border). And they'll continue to chant it unless we roll onto our backs with our paws up in the air and beg to be raped like good little dhimmis. Which Bush and Rumsfeld aren't ever going to do, thanks be to the Powers on high.
Posted by trailing wife 2004-12-15 11:41:34 PM||   2004-12-15 11:41:34 PM|| Front Page Top

21:56 Chineter Spoluger1554
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16:21 lex
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00:11 phil_b
00:02 Pappy
23:53 anonymous2U
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23:49 trailing wife
23:45 Pappy
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23:40 ed









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