Article

2004-12-31 Europe

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Posted by Fred 2004-12-31 00:00:00|| || Front Page|| [2 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 "Fine. Enjoy your 'mountain fastness'. Let us know when you get hungry..."

Posted by mojo 2004-12-31 12:46:55 AM|| 2004-12-31 12:46:55 AM|| Front Page Top

#2 Don't want to be part of Dir el Islam?

Posted by gromgorru 2004-12-31 6:37:19 AM|| 2004-12-31 6:37:19 AM|| Front Page Top

#3 As long as its a case of true desire for national independence, rather than a case of
neighbourly imperialism in disguise (as in the cases of e.g. Transnistria, South Ossetia, Abkhazia, and so forth and so forth), just let them go away. Atleast if you are sure enough that residents will enjoy atleast as many democratic liberties as they previously did.

It's less of a problem in the long run, and either way it'd be morally difficult to justify why they shouldn't be allowed to go independent if they wish.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-12-31 4:12:56 PM|| [http://www.livejournal.com/~katsaris/] 2004-12-31 4:12:56 PM|| Front Page Top

#4 As long as its a case of true desire for national independence

So where does this desire for independence end? Will we end up with city-states, just because some people feel misunderstood and oppressed? The city folk don't understand the country folk? Barcelona feels neglected by Madrid? Just what is the reason why Basque wants independence? This trend toward break-ups, for reasons other than oppression, has its limits as to how far it should be allowed, imo.

Posted by Rafael 2004-12-31 4:40:38 PM|| 2004-12-31 4:40:38 PM|| Front Page Top

#5 I agree with Aris. Let's recognize the new Basque state and start selling them arms. The Macedonians too.

Posted by Mrs. Davis 2004-12-31 4:47:34 PM|| 2004-12-31 4:47:34 PM|| Front Page Top

#6 So where does this desire for independence end? Will we end up with city-states, just because some people feel misunderstood and oppressed?

Do you think that all these cities will *want* to become independent?

The EU referendums alone show that people often feel the benefits of unity. More to the point, Quebec voted against independence. The people in Corsica voted against expansion of their autonomy.

If people *wanted* to devolve to city-states, then by all means give them the right to devolve. But people don't always so desire.

The Macedonians too

They are already independent, hadn't you heard? That whole "Republic of Macedonia" thing?

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-12-31 5:23:15 PM|| [http://www.livejournal.com/~katsaris/] 2004-12-31 5:23:15 PM|| Front Page Top

#7 "hadn't you heard?"
Aris, didn't it occur to you that she was just referring to selling them arms? If you want some respect around here, stop dripping with condescension.

Posted by Tom 2004-12-31 5:46:47 PM|| 2004-12-31 5:46:47 PM|| Front Page Top

#8 didn't it occur to you that she was just referring to selling them arms?

Is there anyone who objects to selling arms to FYRO Macedonia? Anyone whatsoever?

If you want some respect around here, stop dripping with condescension.

If you don't want condescension stop making foolish assumptions about me and where I stand on issues based on my ethnicity.

Quitting with the ethnic stereotypes would truly be a good place to begin. The crowds of people insistent that I can't be Greek, I must be faking it, because I didn't fulfill their narrowminded expectations of what a Greek should think like are an amusing chapter in my Rantburg experience, and one that significantly increased my contempt for many participants here.

That was before your time here I believe, and before anyone bothered to google my name.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-12-31 6:00:28 PM|| [http://www.livejournal.com/~katsaris/] 2004-12-31 6:00:28 PM|| Front Page Top

#9 I didn't make ANY assumptions about you and where you stand on issues based on your ethnicity. I just pointed out that you made an unwarranted assumption of ignorance in regard to Mrs. D's Macedonian reference. Once again, you are Arisifying a thread.

Posted by Tom 2004-12-31 6:09:30 PM|| 2004-12-31 6:09:30 PM|| Front Page Top

#10 no assumptions, just punk

Posted by Frank G 2004-12-31 6:13:59 PM|| 2004-12-31 6:13:59 PM|| Front Page Top

#11 If your willing to let a chunk of your country break off, then that's your problem.

Posted by Whutch Glesh6919 2004-12-31 6:49:08 PM|| 2004-12-31 6:49:08 PM|| Front Page Top

#12 I didn't make ANY assumptions about you and where you stand on issues based on your ethnicity.

No, it's Mrs D. who foolishly thought she had scored a point by trying to use my nationality against me. Such attitude deserves condescession.

As for "arisifying the thread", who was the one who tried to make it personal by intentionally mentioning an issue that she'd believe would score a point against the Greek fellow? Why, it was Mrs. D. And who was the one who tried to make it personal by talking about respect given me or the condescension I use? Why, it was you.

Who were the ones that *didn't* actually use any *arguments* about the issue of the thread? Why it was both you and Mrs. D.

Who was it that didn't mention the topic of the thread at all? It was you.

Fred!! I can imagine you are a busy fellow, but you've still not responded to the issue I raised. You either tell Tom and Frank to cease their trollery and stalking of me, or you tell *me* to take a hike.

Yesterday (more recently than the thread I mentioned to you), we had Frank G making despicable insinuations of antisemetism against me, while Tom makes accusations I faked identity to post like "Murat". Obsessive stalkers. (and as a sidenote, Tom, I'd not make a fun of a person for his physical appearance, and certainly not for the fact he's bald. So me and Murat may both have knowledge of Kojak and of the word "dude", but we differ on the moral level, okay?)

In this thread Tom and Frank have not been as bad, but they again destroyed a thread by obsessing on me and following me around, and commenting on me rather than on the issue of the thread -- the exact same duo.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-12-31 7:01:38 PM|| [http://www.livejournal.com/~katsaris/] 2004-12-31 7:01:38 PM|| Front Page Top

#13 they weren't insinuations, they were questions, and yes, I think you're basically another EUrostatist antisemite. I don't assume that greeks think any particular way, but if I did, I would assume most over the age of 20 (and those with jobs) think differently than you, capische?

Posted by Frank G 2004-12-31 7:08:12 PM|| 2004-12-31 7:08:12 PM|| Front Page Top

#14 Fred doesn't have to ask you to leave, you can (as previously promised) at any time on your own volition. I, for one, enjoy your presence, and the sparklingly incandescent flurries of discussion: "Fred, save me! They're picking on me!". Hoping for 2005 we don't have Aris doing a "Checkers" speech

Posted by Frank G 2004-12-31 7:11:07 PM|| 2004-12-31 7:11:07 PM|| Front Page Top

#15 Free Speech, particulary that absolute type, can be a real bitch. With it, you have the right to get up in someone's face and let 'em have it - ridiculing them, challenging them, mocking them, and generally speaking, have a great time. And if their God or whatever it is they fawn over doesn't save them from you, then it's just tough shit, man, cuz it's Absolute Free Speech. It's a fundamental Right. I heard about it here at Ranburg U from a distinguished and infallible contributor. Go figure, he?

Posted by .com 2004-12-31 7:15:04 PM|| 2004-12-31 7:15:04 PM|| Front Page Top

#16 They weren't questions, they were trolling accusations. If I asked you "I bet you donate to KKK, don't you?" that'd be a similar kind of 'question' as the ones you used.

but if I did, I would assume most over the age of 20 (and those with jobs) think differently than you, capische?

Quite possibly. For example I'd guess that most Greeks over the age of 20 are anti-Americans and anti-Semites who think that Russia is better than the USA, that Israel is worse than the Palestinian leaders, and that the Serbs were poor innonent victims.

That would indeed make them think differently than me, capische?

Fred doesn't have to ask you to leave, you can (as previously promised) at any time on your own volition.

That depends on what the creator of the forum, wants the forum to be *like*. And that depends on his choice - whether it is my contributions or your trollery that are most valuable to Rantburg.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-12-31 7:18:25 PM|| [http://www.livejournal.com/~katsaris/] 2004-12-31 7:18:25 PM|| Front Page Top

#17 "Hoping for 2005 we don't have Aris doing a "Checkers" speech."

Could very well happen; haven't we already had the "You won't have Aris to kick around anymore" speech?

Posted by Dave D. 2004-12-31 7:18:29 PM|| 2004-12-31 7:18:29 PM|| Front Page Top

#18 .com> Yes, .com, as you may have noted I didn't ask the police to drag Frank G away for using his rights of free speech. I didn't threaten violence on him for using his rights of free speech, either. (ofcourse Frank once took seriously a "threat" I made about rabid mobs chanting my name and burning down his house. That was amusing but it represented *his* inanity, not mine)

Unlike you, I understand what "Free expression" and "free opinion" actually entails. It also means that Fred can choose which people he wants to have contribute in his forum, and in which manner. It's his forum.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-12-31 7:24:09 PM|| [http://www.livejournal.com/~katsaris/] 2004-12-31 7:24:09 PM|| Front Page Top

#19 but they again destroyed a thread by obsessing on me

That does tend to happen. Just take it to mean your argument is so good they can't attack it with issues and instead use character assassination. Some very good politicians in waiting around here.

Posted by WingedAvenger 2004-12-31 7:24:59 PM|| 2004-12-31 7:24:59 PM|| Front Page Top

#20 ahhhh WA, happy new year to you as well! Riding to the rescue of Aris's ego!

Posted by Frank G 2004-12-31 7:26:02 PM|| 2004-12-31 7:26:02 PM|| Front Page Top

#21 Lol, it's the Avian of Action! Oh, please, Winged Wonder, do please continue! You are so droll and there is so much emotion in this thread needing to be sopped up by your dry wit!

Posted by .com 2004-12-31 7:31:20 PM|| 2004-12-31 7:31:20 PM|| Front Page Top

#22 See?

Posted by WingedAvenger 2004-12-31 7:32:24 PM|| 2004-12-31 7:32:24 PM|| Front Page Top

#23 LOL! Point made.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-12-31 7:33:50 PM|| [http://www.livejournal.com/~katsaris/] 2004-12-31 7:33:50 PM|| Front Page Top

#24 ;-)~

Posted by Frank G 2004-12-31 7:35:26 PM|| 2004-12-31 7:35:26 PM|| Front Page Top

#25 :p bit of self deprication never hurt anyone, i salute you, a prosperous new year to all.

Posted by WingedAvenger 2004-12-31 7:37:07 PM|| 2004-12-31 7:37:07 PM|| Front Page Top

#26 Such brevity of wit. almost as brief as your combined resumes of expertise. BTW, it's deprecation, Winged One.

Posted by .com 2004-12-31 7:41:12 PM|| 2004-12-31 7:41:12 PM|| Front Page Top

#27 "BTW, it's deprecation, Winged One."

Wouldn't deprication be the end result of being Bobbittized?

Posted by Dave D. 2004-12-31 7:44:41 PM|| 2004-12-31 7:44:41 PM|| Front Page Top

#28 Or it's the price one pays to become a Winged Avenger.

Posted by .com 2004-12-31 7:46:20 PM|| 2004-12-31 7:46:20 PM|| Front Page Top

#29 OK, now, that was funny! LOL

Posted by Frank G 2004-12-31 7:51:23 PM|| 2004-12-31 7:51:23 PM|| Front Page Top

#30 We got laws about using snatch hooks in my state.

Posted by Shipman 2004-12-31 7:52:18 PM|| 2004-12-31 7:52:18 PM|| Front Page Top

#31 Our work here is done! To the O-Club!

Posted by Frank G 2004-12-31 7:55:06 PM|| 2004-12-31 7:55:06 PM|| Front Page Top

#32 Sincere apologies for being off topic. Again, so sorry.

Posted by .com 2004-12-31 7:57:03 PM|| 2004-12-31 7:57:03 PM|| Front Page Top

#33 Aris, how many words have you added to this thread since the last mention of the Basques?

Posted by Tom 2004-12-31 8:49:32 PM|| 2004-12-31 8:49:32 PM|| Front Page Top

#34 Wow, I'm Basque! French side of the Pyrenees , which, although fairly docile, might see things differently should their spanish side get independence...the breakdown of nation-states to tribes, again

Posted by Frank G 2004-12-31 9:04:33 PM|| 2004-12-31 9:04:33 PM|| Front Page Top

#35 It's a granularity thingy. I wanna be the first on my block to have my block become independent. The People's Republic of Las Vegas, Tropicana Block 119. The one next to the Black Bear Diner, lol! I am the Emperor, Caeser, King, and President-For-Life (of my lease).

Posted by .com 2004-12-31 9:07:30 PM|| 2004-12-31 9:07:30 PM|| Front Page Top

#36 There, you see, Aris -- it took Frank G to bring the thread back on topic. Dearisification.

Posted by Tom 2004-12-31 9:07:40 PM|| 2004-12-31 9:07:40 PM|| Front Page Top

#37 The People's Republic of Las Vegas, Tropicana Block 119.

It was done in UK, a person declaring his house sovereign soil. When the British authorities prevented him from leaving it however because he didn't have a passport, I think he began to see the folly of that idea.

There was also a Don Rosa story around that concept, I believe, Scrooge McDuck declaring the "moneybin" I think you call it? independent. Then there was a mass invasion of robbers, and United States police wouldn't intervene, as it was beyond their jurisdiction. Neither did the army, not having made a defense alliance with the new nation.

But by all means make your house independent, if you feel you can survive with what you can grow inside it.

Is it devolution to tribes, or is it a libertarian's dream, where people's society reforms on a voluntary basis?

For all of the repetitious claims I'm a "statist", it seems I'm the only one here who doesn't hold the state's territorial integrity as something sacrosanct.

Told you I was more freedom-loving than most of you. ;-)

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-12-31 11:42:55 PM|| [http://www.livejournal.com/~katsaris/] 2004-12-31 11:42:55 PM|| Front Page Top

#38 Lol! Sigh, wotta foolish response. You made no case, just took a comment meant to be sarcasm (which you knew it to be) and then used it, stuffed full of irrelevant fiction - nice diversionary associative tactic - and used it as a strawman for another of your fantasy jaunts wherein you "teach" the dumb American cowboys about freedom. You're a trip, sonny.

So here you are, waving your arms and pretending "freedom" is a simple word game - as if you had the first clue about what lies behind the word. You really do need a massive injection of reality - the hard world where shit isn't simple and neat and clean, where you can't tie everything up in some word package to regurgitate for some lame Professor who has also lived a sheltered life, where it sometimes gets bloody as hell and you're glad most of it is the other guy's, where the story never quite turns out like the storybook endings of your childhood. There are 18 and 19 year old Marines who know more about freedom than you will ever know, or even suspect.

Regards your separatists, when their little experiment falls on its face, will you come to their aid? On any level? Will you actually know what to do? Do you even know anything of the people you say should be allowed to create this Basque "nation"? Gee, sonny, they might not be the Knights in Shining Armor you presume. Did you research it? Nahh, of course not. What if they're just thugs trying to control territory and gain power? Talked to Joe Average on Basque Street (without the pressure and presence of the "separatists", of course) to find out if he wants what they want? His neighbors - did you ask them yet? The point is rather obvious: you think simple ideas and romantic notions are reality. Wrong. Often Dead Wrong. You're a simplistic little boy full of romantic morality tales.

This is not a simple issue, despite your simplistic views and statements and your crude little strawman exercise - most of which was irrelevant twaddle about some fiction you've read, rather than reasoned arguments and an outline of who, what, when, where, how, and most importantly why.

If you want to be taken seriously, then you must make a complete case - not just defeat your own farcical joke and proclaim yourself a wizard and moral superior. Tit for tat threads of 100 comments don't do much, either. Instead, take the time to actually make a case for or against the proposition. Then post it, let the muddle die down, and address the serious responses. It's really quite stupid to make so many presumptions and offer precisely zero evidence to back it up - just your silly moral posturing and victory dance over your own fool's post. For your facile and infantile behavior, I offer you scorn, not respect.

I have come to believe you have Little Man's Disease. Being insignificant and irrelevant, when you've got the notion stuck in your head that you should be important, you've decided you're smart enough to go on the offensive. This is supposed to convince others, they will oooh and ahhh over you and this response will assuage your feelings. But, as you are probably discovering, rather slowly I might add, it doesn't work - for two reasons: first - you're really not that smart and second - you have no real experience and it's obvious to everyone but you that you're full of bullshit. Apparently, this notion that you should be important is eating its way to the outside from your center - seeking freedom, I guess, from such small confines. At this point I might offer you some advice about how to act and behave on RB that would garner you the respect you obviously crave. But you're old enough to figure it out - and you're also old enough to recognize the need to jettison your Little Man demon. He has another name: ego.

Son, I've already done the hard shit you're just about to begin doing. I've fought for my life and the lives of those with whom I served. I've worked my ass off for decades without self-pity to raise a family and educate my child and set her on her way. I didn't blog to make myself feel important - I was already important. Breadwinner, defender, teacher, friend. I've learned what is and isn't freedom. You haven't the first inkling.

You should take a hike, sonny. And not come back until you've stopped talking, started listening, learned what's important in life, and realized that your own ego, and it's a magnificent fucking monster, is your worst enemy.

Personally, I don't give a shit what you do or don't do. You are, truly, insignificant. Good luck.

Posted by .com 2005-01-01 1:00:43 AM|| 2005-01-01 1:00:43 AM|| Front Page Top

18:53 cingold
18:53 cingold
18:52 cingold
18:52 cingold
01:00 .com
00:00 Crereper Thomble7221
23:42 Aris Katsaris
23:37 lex
23:36 Sock Puppet of Doom
23:36 Me
23:15 lex
23:07 lex
22:46 Lone Ranger
22:30 Chuck Simmins
22:29 Chuck Simmins
22:27 Glenmore
21:58 .com
21:55 Frank G
21:51 Sock Puppet of Doom
21:50 Stephen
21:48 Sock Puppet of Doom
21:37 Dave D.
21:32 Edward Yee
21:24 Frank G