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2005-01-13 Southeast Asia
Aceh leader asks troops to stay
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Posted by cingold 2005-01-13 3:08:00 PM|| || Front Page|| [2 views since 2007-05-07]  Top

#1 cingold: FWIW, IMO what’s going on in Aceh is very complex.

Actually, I would say it's pretty simple - with the caveat that there are multiple interests involved. The central government doesn't want the West (or anyone else) showing how blase (or incompetent) it is about the damage done to what is - after all - a rebellious (actually, secessionist) province. The provincial government wants help to rebuild the province, even if it means inadvertently filling the coffers of the rebels. The rebels want aid with no strings attached - they can't fight if they're all starving. They want the aid, as long as Western troops aren't part of the package.

And what of the people actually affected? The people actually affected want all the help they can get. Except they will end up with a tiny sliver of the aid, only after the rebels, the central government and the provincial government get their piece of the action.
Posted by Zhang Fei  2005-01-13 3:26:08 PM|| [http://timurileng.blogspot.com]  2005-01-13 3:26:08 PM|| Front Page Top

#2 Aceh fought the Dutch colonialists for 80 years, the bloodiest of Holland's colonial history with 10,000 Dutch deaths and 90,000 Achehnese lost, right until the Japanese seizure of the colony, and then they fought the Japanese just as fiercely. Post war they were quite sure of their independence until the Dutch, without returning, signed Aceh over to the newly formed Indonesian state which was glad to have the oil resources. This outraged the Achehnese who perceived it as a clear violation of their sovereignty and UN resolutions regarding colonies... tensions simmered until the period 1989-1998 when Aceh was declared a Military Operational Area and brutally supressed with military force and martial law by the Indonesian government.
Posted by DANEgerus  2005-01-13 3:27:58 PM|| [http://www.danegerus.com/weblog]  2005-01-13 3:27:58 PM|| Front Page Top

#3 Zhang,

You paint such a bleak picture . . . Is there nothing to be done? //sarcasm off

IMO, if we follow the policies of President Bush, there is much reason to hope millions more can be empowered in their own pursuit of life, liberty and happiness -- "even" in Indonesia in general, and in Aceh. We have the sword for the warring, and our right hand of friendship for the peaceful. Indonesia has shown itself to be a partner and an ally, not an enemy. Disagreements along the way are irrelevant. NO OTHER country in the world, apart from us, has captured, killed or convicted more islamofascists.
Posted by cingold 2005-01-13 3:36:04 PM||   2005-01-13 3:36:04 PM|| Front Page Top

#4 NO OTHER country in the world has captured and released more islamofascist terrorists as well.
Posted by rjschwarz  2005-01-13 3:42:32 PM|| [http://rjschwarz.com]  2005-01-13 3:42:32 PM|| Front Page Top

#5 If RI catches and releases, how is that different than us? Isn't it all about the evidence? Take for example the recent case of Mamdouh Habib. See prior Rantburg thread. We released this guy because we weren’t sure a military tribunal would convict him -- based on the evidence we had -- despite the fact we clearly think he is a very, very bad apple.
Posted by cingold 2005-01-13 4:14:42 PM||   2005-01-13 4:14:42 PM|| Front Page Top

#6 Money can't buy me love...
Posted by Captain America  2005-01-13 4:30:32 PM||   2005-01-13 4:30:32 PM|| Front Page Top

#7 could precipitate a cascade of seditionist autonomy seeking that would result in the very dissolution of the nation.---

Is this a bad thing?
Posted by anonymous2u 2005-01-13 4:38:07 PM||   2005-01-13 4:38:07 PM|| Front Page Top

#8 could precipitate a cascade of seditionist autonomy seeking that would result in the very dissolution of the nation.--- Is this a bad thing?

yes, in all likelihood.
Posted by Liberalhawk 2005-01-13 4:45:22 PM||   2005-01-13 4:45:22 PM|| Front Page Top

#9 LH: yes, in all likelihood.

The dissolution of Javanese empire (since Indonesia is run by Javanese Muslims) might be a good thing. It would certainly set free the Christian minorities in the Moluccas and the Hindu majority on Bali. Indonesia isn't really meant to be a unitary state - it is merely the remnants of Dutch empire in East Asia. The dissolution of Indonesia would remove a large Muslim state from our list of long term strategic threats.
Posted by Zhang Fei  2005-01-13 4:49:50 PM|| [http://timurileng.blogspot.com]  2005-01-13 4:49:50 PM|| Front Page Top

#10 ZF - if you could wave a magic wand and set up dozens of free republics that way, maybe. But thats not in the cards - if seditionist autonomy spreads, Java will fight hard to keep control, and there will be other fights as well (does a Republic of Sumatra necessarily let Aceh go, forex?) It would make Yugoslavia look like a picnic.
Posted by Liberalhawk 2005-01-13 4:52:54 PM||   2005-01-13 4:52:54 PM|| Front Page Top

#11 and the odds are excellent that at least SOME of those statelets would end up as failed, in the control of salafist islamists. Then wed have to either assemble some of the other statelets to go in, probably unsuccessfully, or go in ourselves. Yet more overstretch, more alienation of hearts and minds, etc. But oh yeah, all that hearts and minds stuff is for weepy liberals, and all that overstretch is propaganda from the liberal press. Right.


Indonesia is far from perfect, and yeah, they do a fair amount of catch and release, but theyre economizing on US force.

ZF - you read Luttwaks "Grand Strategy of the Roman Empire"?
Posted by Liberalhawk 2005-01-13 4:57:05 PM||   2005-01-13 4:57:05 PM|| Front Page Top

#12 Heh, this is going to be interesting to watch. Aceh leaders say stay, Indonesian government leaders say go. What next? Stay tuned.
Posted by Bomb-a-rama 2005-01-13 5:12:14 PM||   2005-01-13 5:12:14 PM|| Front Page Top

#13 I say we ask Jimmy Durante... he laid it out in song, didn't he?
Posted by .com 2005-01-13 5:14:08 PM||   2005-01-13 5:14:08 PM|| Front Page Top

#14 The central government doesn't want the West (or anyone else) showing how blase (or incompetent) it is about the damage done to what is - after all - a rebellious (actually, secessionist) province

What Zhang said. The central fact of nearly ever third world government is its incompetence in the delivery of basic public goods, related usually to varying degrees of kleptocracy and brutality. This incompetence rises the further one gets from the capital city or economically and ethnically dominant region.

As a result, most such governments seek legitimacy from their miserable citizens through a mixture of (if they're reasonably advanced politically) co-optation of ethnic, union etc leaders; bribery; and demogaguery, usually in the form of foreigner-bashing.

It seems that none of these options is very attractive to the Jakarta leadership. They refuse to co-opt or devolve any power to the Aceh people; they're too greedy (or stupid) to pay them off; and it's crystal clear in the tsunami's aftermath that foreigners are lifesavers, not villains.

So best to boot the foreigners out and get back to stealing from and brutalizing the people.
Posted by lex 2005-01-13 5:18:26 PM||   2005-01-13 5:18:26 PM|| Front Page Top

#15 Aceh is only one of a half-dozen hotspots for the Indonesians. The main island of Borneo is hotly contested by otherwise ineffective natives. Papua New Guinea covets the other half of the island of New Guinea, and most of the native population would rather belong to Papua New Guinea than to Indonesia. There are problems around the island of Timor, and in a half-dozen other flashpoints. If the Indonesian government should fail to meet the needs of the Acehenese, all he$$ could break loose. Not to mention the fact that Indonesia has lost a third or more of two of its most valuable cash crops - coffee and rubber - to the tsunami. Recovering from either will be a 30-40 year project. That doesn't include any mention about the loss of half the ricefields in Aceh, thousands of acres of arable farmland, banana and cocoanut plantations, harbors, and at least one oil export terminal south of Calang. The Indonesian government is in deep doo-doo no matter what it does.
Posted by Old Patriot  2005-01-13 6:41:38 PM|| [http://oldpatriot.blogspot.com/]  2005-01-13 6:41:38 PM|| Front Page Top

#16 While we're discussing Indonesian politics... y'all are aware of the recent anthropological discoveries on Flores, and the ongoing dispute over ownership of the fossils, right?

Does any of the above have any bearing on why some of the authorities in Indonesia seem particularly eager to declare the fossils to be representative of pygmy homo sapiens with some sort of brain disorder rather than a new species, simultaneously with sequestering the fossils away from the joint Indonesian/Australian team that discovered them?
Posted by Phil Fraering 2005-01-13 6:53:13 PM|| [http://newsfromthefridge.typepad.com]  2005-01-13 6:53:13 PM|| Front Page Top

#17 It looks to me like it's an academic dispute (those are worse than political disputes). See, e.g., Scientist Rejects Flores Hobbit Claim.
Posted by cingold 2005-01-13 7:23:13 PM||   2005-01-13 7:23:13 PM|| Front Page Top

#18 Cingold: that article left out some details. He made the declaration that the fossils weren't a separate species without having seen then.

THEN he confiscated them from their discoverers.

Is Flores another potential E. Timor, where they don't want outsiders poking around or something?
Posted by Phil Fraering 2005-01-13 7:33:13 PM|| [http://newsfromthefridge.typepad.com]  2005-01-13 7:33:13 PM|| Front Page Top

#19 They don't like outsiders poking around anywhere. 400+ years of colonial rule, and a huge potential powder keg of cultural diversity, make the government types pretty cagy and paranoid. SBY will be good for the country, IMO.
Posted by cingold 2005-01-13 7:36:35 PM||   2005-01-13 7:36:35 PM|| Front Page Top

#20 cingold: 400+ years of colonial rule, and a huge potential powder keg of cultural diversity, make the government types pretty cagy and paranoid.

What makes the government paranoid isn't 400+ years of colonial rule - people in the region massacred each other in wars of annihilation long before the Portuguese or the Dutch ever showed up. The root cause is the fact that the Javanese inherited, rather than earned their empire in the usual way, by conquering it. If the provinces simultaneously rebelled, there is no way the Javanese could continue lording it over the rest of the country. Java itself could break up - it was never unified prior to European rule. As to the word "colonial", it might be better applied to the various kingdoms that contended for power and won. The reason the kingdoms in the Dutch East Indies submitted so rapidly was because Dutch rule was relatively benign, compared that of their neighbors.
Posted by Zhang Fei  2005-01-13 8:37:14 PM|| [http://timurileng.blogspot.com]  2005-01-13 8:37:14 PM|| Front Page Top

#21 Maybe, we should ask the Imam, if we should stay?
Posted by tipper 2005-01-13 9:33:01 PM||   2005-01-13 9:33:01 PM|| Front Page Top

#22 Hmmmmmmmmmmmm . . . didn’t earn empire . . . just inherited . . . . . Dutch . . . benign rule . . . . . . .

Sorry, your “facts” just don’t square.
By the time of the Renaissance, the islands of Java and Sumatra had already enjoyed a 1,000-year heritage of advanced civilization spanning two major empires.
A Short History of Indonesia. And regarding the benevolent Dutch?
All but one of the Portuguese holdings in Indonesia was overtaken by the Dutch and the British in the 17th century. . . . In 1824 the London Treaty was signed, giving the Dutch control over all British possessions in Sumatra in return for a Dutch surrender of establishments in India and Singapore. Dutch attempts to subdue the recalcitrant Acehnese resulted in a long drawn out struggle. The Aceh War, which lasted intermittently from 1873 to 1942, was the longest war ever fought by Holland, costing the Dutch more than 10,000 lives. . . . Dutch interest in Indonesia was primarily economic but was marked by frequent and sometimes bloody conflicts particularly in Sumatra and Java. The Dutch were, however, able to achieve control over the spice trade in the East Indies during the 17th Century. During the late 18th and 19th centuries . . . uprisings in Java nearly overthrew Dutch rule and crippled the Dutch economy in Indonesia. This economic difficulty renewed Dutch interest in the cultivation of natural resources in Indonesia. The Dutch instituted a strange tax on all land in Java. This tax was not payable in money or crops but in labor. Thirty-three percent of all labor expended by the Javanese was to be dedicated to the Dutch. This system quickly turned into a system of plantations and forced labor. The latter half of the 19th century was marked by Dutch military suppression of Indonesian laborers. This suppression resulted in the virtual enslavement of most of the Javanese peasant laborers. Because of Dutch oppression, Indonesian nationalism began to grow significantly in the early 20th century.
INDONESIA: Bhinneka Tunggal Ika. The mother of our family maid in Indonesia had such memories of the Dutch that she was terrified of all of us white skinned people. She would literally quake. It was tragic and pathetic. The Dutch were particularly brutal following WW II.

Zhang, I don’t think the world is a black and white as you make it out to be.
Posted by cingold 2005-01-13 9:41:20 PM||   2005-01-13 9:41:20 PM|| Front Page Top

#23 Question: Indonesia is already a haven for pirates, like Malaysia. If the country breaks up, will the pirate problem improve or get worse?

cingold: you casually use terms like "sycretic muslimin" and "textual muslimin", not to mention "the Abangan and Priyayi", which are not in my vocabulary. Definitions or links, please.

Thanks
Posted by trailing wife 2005-01-13 10:25:15 PM||   2005-01-13 10:25:15 PM|| Front Page Top

#24 A prior thread hits the four main political/social groups in Indonesia. Here is a link to that thread. About 52% of Indonesians are either Abangan or Priyayi, i.e., nationalists who are either traditionalist or modernist. While certainly culturally distinct from the US, these two groups share many surprisingly similar values. The Syncretic Muslimin (about 27% of the population) are religious, but are also traditionalists, which means NOT islamofascist. Their values, while even more foreign to ours, really aren't in conflict with ours. It’s the Textual Muslimin (about 12% of the population) that is most influenced by Arabian ideals, and breeds islamofascism.

Only parts of Indonesia are pirate havens. These tend to be rural areas near strategic waterways, like the straits of Malacca. As Indonesia becomes increasingly democratic, the government has increasingly moved to stop the pirating. IMO, if the country were to break up, lawlessness, brutality, and pirating would increase monumentally. Plus, there would be intense inter-provincial aggression. A map helps:
Posted by cingold 2005-01-13 10:45:38 PM||   2005-01-13 10:45:38 PM|| Front Page Top

#25 cingold: And regarding the benevolent Dutch?:

The Aceh War, which lasted intermittently from 1873 to 1942, was the longest war ever fought by Holland, costing the Dutch more than 10,000 lives.


Certainly more benevolent than the Majapahit, which fought pre-modern wars. Dutch professional soldiers fought wars to settle issues between states - custody of natural resources being among these issues. Pre-modern wars were fought on a tribal basis - mass slaughter was the rule, not the exception. For the Dutch to kill 90,000 Acehnese over 70 years doesn't remotely hold a candle to the kinds of killing that the native colonialists were capable of.* The funny thing is that that amounts to just over one thousand Acehnese a year. This is what I hate about some of these historians - they lie with numbers - big time. A long running guerrilla war is made out to be some kind of slaughter. Note that the Javanese understand slaughter - they killed about a million in the 1960's during their war against the Communists (including tens of thousands of ethnic Chinese). It ain't called Oriental cruelty for nothing.

* I understand that to cingold, when native colonialists slaugther their neighbors in large numbers to take their land and enslave their people, it's only brown people killing brown people. When it's the white man conducting operations against brown rulers, taking care to avoid actions against civilians except as limited punitive actions - why, that's racist oppression.
Posted by Zhang Fei  2005-01-13 11:49:02 PM|| [http://timurileng.blogspot.com]  2005-01-13 11:49:02 PM|| Front Page Top

#26  I understand that to cingold, when native colonialists slaugther their neighbors in large numbers to take their land and enslave their people, it's only brown people killing brown people. When it's the white man conducting operations against brown rulers, taking care to avoid actions against civilians except as limited punitive actions - why, that's racist oppression.

Yup, and theres good reason for that. The whites come in and dont just conquer, they go around telling people theyre all superior and everyone else is barbaric. they spread ideas like Christianity, democracy, even socialism. Which some of the locals take seriously. They then hold the whites to the "universal" values the whites taught them. They DONT care much at that point about what their ancestors did hundreds of years ago.

Besides, theres a difference between being oppressed by someone like you, and an outsider. Youre oppressed by someone like you, you think you COULD be on top, its just luck. Not the humiliating notion that youre intrinsically inferior. Theres more to this than material harm - humiliation is REAL.

We ignore this at our peril.
Posted by liberalhawk 2005-01-14 12:02:01 AM||   2005-01-14 12:02:01 AM|| Front Page Top

00:02 liberalhawk
23:58 Cyber Sarge
23:54 2b
23:54 Zhang Fei
23:49 Zhang Fei
23:46 .com
23:25 Sock Puppet of Doom
23:03 Sock Puppet of Doom
22:58 trailing wife
22:57 Barbara Skolaut
22:54 JosephMendiola
22:45 cingold
22:25 trailing wife
22:24 Jame Retief
22:23 BH
22:23 CrazyFool
22:18 Anonymoose
22:18 Alaska Paul
22:16 Tom
22:12 trailing wife
21:54 trailing wife
21:52 Captain America
21:52 trailing wife
21:50 Captain America









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