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2005-04-23 Home Front: WoT

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Posted by Sobiesky 2005-04-23 2:01:05 AM|| || Front Page|| [11136 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 And oh, dear lord! They might scoop meteorites up and propel them toward the United States at enormous speed, with the resulting destructive force of a THOUSAND NUCLEAR BOMBS! Therefore we need to spend money before IT'S TOO LATE! EMP, phooey.

Posted by Anonymoose 2005-04-23 10:41:19 AM|| 2005-04-23 10:41:19 AM|| Front Page Top

#2 Paraphrasing von Clauswitz: He who would defend everything will defend nothing.

Posted by badanov 2005-04-23 10:45:50 AM|| [http://www.rkka.org] 2005-04-23 10:45:50 AM|| Front Page Top

#3 This Clauswitz sounds like my kinda guy. Is he on the team? What does he need? Snowplows? What?

Posted by The Visiting Mauo 2005-04-23 10:59:30 AM|| 2005-04-23 10:59:30 AM|| Front Page Top

#4 Echos of the voices in Pompeii

"It's just dust..."

I thought it was an interesting article. Thanks!

Posted by jules 2 2005-04-23 11:06:55 AM|| 2005-04-23 11:06:55 AM|| Front Page Top

#5 Kyl is a serious guy. I think he understates the difficulty of a comprehensive EMP attack, but it's something to consider. Hardening infrastructure is something that can be done as items are replaced and it's something civilians can do to help in preparedness while the military takes the battle to the enemy. Clausowitz's admonishment is not 100% applicable here.

Posted by JAB 2005-04-23 12:16:40 PM|| 2005-04-23 12:16:40 PM|| Front Page Top

#6 I was under the impression that military hardware is all EMP hardened? I keep some vaccum tube operated amateur radio equipment around just for such an occurance. Unlike transistors, vaccum tubes don't suffer from EMP damage.

Posted by Sock Puppet 0â Doom 2005-04-23 12:27:18 PM|| 2005-04-23 12:27:18 PM|| Front Page Top

#7 a nuke scud over the US is a obvious declaration of war and would bring about massive retaliation - power grid down would be the least of the worries...just how would this SCUD reach us? Sub launched would indicate China/Russia, of which China would be the obvious suspect....Kyl's a serious guy, but the scenario is low on the likelihood scale IMHO

Posted by Frank G 2005-04-23 12:45:48 PM|| 2005-04-23 12:45:48 PM|| Front Page Top

#8 Anonymouse, are you really THAT stupid?

EMP from a small nuclear warhead, detonated at the right altitude, would fry a huge porotion of our economy. Think about how many micro[processors are embedded in jsut about everything, from cars to power and water distribution systems.

These are not hardened. Experimentation with high energy RF radiation has shown them to be immensely vulnerable if not hardened. It woudl be a prudent step to require hardening of the microcontrollers that are vital to the infrastructure. To do otherwise woudl be to expose a region of the US to economic devastation by a Jihadi in a lear jet with a small crude fission bomb.

I've seen parts of the analysis of what could be done, and the results. Hospitals without power or any of their modern instruments, police without radios or functional cars (fried chips in the cicuitry that controls the fuel injection), supermarkets unable to obtain or distribute food beyond canned good and emergency rations trucked in from outside the pulsed zone. Several million people displaced because without the modern supply grid of shipping, electricity and communications, their home area will be uninhabitable.

Imagine the impact of that on the entire US economy. Even better - Imagine it at 50,000 feet over Manhattan.

Cost effective measures can and should be taken to at least protect the distribution grid for electricity and communications.

Read up and learn, before you make more of an idiot of yourself by being blindly and stupidly dismissive, like those analsyst were pre-9/11 who went "Hijack a plane and fly it into a building? Phooey" You willing to join that club you moron?

Posted by OldSpook 2005-04-23 1:27:53 PM|| 2005-04-23 1:27:53 PM|| Front Page Top

#9 Anonymouse - OS is right on this one. If you don't realize the vulnerability, that suggests you're just ignorant on the topic in which case it's best to stay silent.

And if you do realize the vulnerability but refuse to discuss countermeasures with any degree of seriousness then you're an ignorant fool.

Posted by too true 2005-04-23 1:46:14 PM|| 2005-04-23 1:46:14 PM|| Front Page Top

#10 The outer walls of hospitals and other critical buildings should be well-grounded Faraday cages. That would have the secondary benefit of killing cell-phome use inside as well.

Posted by mojo 2005-04-23 1:49:10 PM|| 2005-04-23 1:49:10 PM|| Front Page Top

#11 I don't think the event horizon of anything exploded at 50,000 ft is all that great. Bad news, but hardly nation ending. A lot more hand wringing, screeching and whinning prior to a nation ending retaliation by 1 maybe 2 US subs.

Posted by Shipman 2005-04-23 2:53:38 PM|| 2005-04-23 2:53:38 PM|| Front Page Top

#12 US GMD> the US will able to destroy enemy missles at launch or very soon after launch. Watch the USAF-USDOD air. missle and laser tests over WESTPAC to see, ergo the Commies are focusing on Underwater Warfare, i.e. subs with LR pop-up underwater capability, plus arsenal ships/air disguised as ordinary freighters, plus fast sealift/airlift, .......etc. lest we forget, the Clintons for POTUS, from within!? Good Clintonian Amerikans of the USSA, the CPUSA, and the People's Soviet Waffen SS Red Army of Amerika demand to be ruled under OWG and anyone except Americans.

Posted by JosephMendiola 2005-04-23 7:35:08 PM|| [http://n/a] 2005-04-23 7:35:08 PM|| Front Page Top

#13 Afternoon/morning Joe!

Posted by Shipman 2005-04-23 7:43:21 PM|| 2005-04-23 7:43:21 PM|| Front Page Top

#14 Wrong, #11 Shipman. High altitude EMPs are potentially the most dangerous for us - above 100,000 ft and up is the worst, but a lot can happen at 50,000 ft as well. It's not an 'event horizon' issue at all. At the higher level it's the gamma rays that ionize the air until they interact with earth mag fields, from that height. This cascades to promulgate via (among other things) metal girders, railroad tracks, metal bridges, wires, pipes etc. High altitude = wide deposition region of the ions generated as the gamma particles travel through the air -- hundreds of miles or as much as 1000 miles in diameter from the upper heights. At 50,000 ft down to the height of commercial airlines and below, you get a more localized and less circular pattern, still with the ionization, this time more intense but much more localized.

Since it doesn't take a huge pulse to destroy most of our unshielded systems including the digital plcs that run many factories, water pumping stations etc. as well as comms and other more obvious electronics, emp from above ground is a serious threat.

Posted by wired in 2005-04-23 8:00:21 PM|| 2005-04-23 8:00:21 PM|| Front Page Top

#15 true, but who can deliver it anonymously? otherwise it's time for a multi-rad exposure

Posted by Frank G 2005-04-23 8:06:52 PM|| 2005-04-23 8:06:52 PM|| Front Page Top

#16 Yeah, yeah ... big talk, but you're not taking seriously the incredible suffering here. go nuke a country you THINK sponsored this. meanwhile, by day 3 people are seriously hungry, fires have broken out, water purification has ended and no food is moving in a 1000 mile radius section of the country. By day 7 disease starts to be a serious issue as does hunger in cities; panic, looting. Mil systems might be hardened, but police, fire, ems, national guard stuff isn't. Who the hell do you think will keep order?

Posted by wired in 2005-04-23 8:15:19 PM|| 2005-04-23 8:15:19 PM|| Front Page Top

#17 tks "wired in" -Mr "Big Talk" reminded me of my ex LOL - point taken, but I think the American level of humor might chg, a la 9/12/01 escalated to the "OK to Nuke back" level

Posted by Frank G 2005-04-23 8:22:21 PM|| 2005-04-23 8:22:21 PM|| Front Page Top

#18 maybe. or morale might collapse when the extent of the damage hits. in any case we're talking really serious effects here - probably a collapse of civil order in a major part of the country, maybe martial law and certainly a serious collapse of the economy nationwide .... don't kid yourself, this could be crippling and very long lasting.

Posted by wired in 2005-04-23 8:28:51 PM|| 2005-04-23 8:28:51 PM|| Front Page Top

#19 like, say, Pearl Harbor?

Posted by Frank G 2005-04-23 8:48:58 PM|| 2005-04-23 8:48:58 PM|| Front Page Top

#20 Sheesh. C'mon. Frank hits a solid point - we will know who launched. Period. Full Fucking Stop. We have the detection systems for it, and have had for a looong time. The only issue might be getting that information distributed if an EMP hit disables parts of the comms network involved.

If you don't know this, as an absolute fact, then you're no more "wired in" than some college kid whose hormones rule his life.

So, "wired in", got any more you'd like to add that poopoo Frank's assertion that we'd know and we'd respond? Personally, since that's precisely what the system was designed for, I'd wager there's a specific protocol and the response would, indeed, be delivered.

BTW, lol, I'm pretty fucking wired, myself, but I'm sure each of us has something different in mind.

Posted by .com 2005-04-23 8:51:50 PM|| 2005-04-23 8:51:50 PM|| Front Page Top

#21 like nothing we've ever had here CONUS. like, things getting so bad in one part of the country that survivors are turned back by the area that remains intact. sound impossible? it's not.

Posted by wired in 2005-04-23 8:52:59 PM|| 2005-04-23 8:52:59 PM|| Front Page Top

#22 of course we have the systems, the command lines and the doctrine that would allow retaliation. we might even have the political will.

so what? it does zip, nada, zilch about the damage and collapse here.

Posted by wired in 2005-04-23 8:54:53 PM|| 2005-04-23 8:54:53 PM|| Front Page Top

#23 Well, how about taking it down before it can do the damage and since we would know where it came from, respond? I like win-win scenarios.

Posted by Sobiesky 2005-04-23 9:02:15 PM|| 2005-04-23 9:02:15 PM|| Front Page Top

#24 Sheesh. Think that we don't "get it" and you're like the only one who does? This is an ancient SciFi plotline. Of course we get it - look at OS's (and others) replies. We get it.

We've known about this for decades. The Peace Dividend from the "end" of the Cold War was squandered, instead of preparing us for anything. If you want to hold people to account - well, lol, it's the usual suspects: the funders in the US House. That someone in a position to elevate the issue finally sees it is great. If something comes of this, then we can all sit back and laugh (h/t Peter Sinfield, King Crimson lyricist).

If not, I promise I'll remember you and, as I shoot the first 5 looters, recite the litany: "wired in told us so." K?

Posted by .com 2005-04-23 9:05:22 PM|| 2005-04-23 9:05:22 PM|| Front Page Top

#25 Sobiesky, sounds good to me. Of course, don't forget to be able to identify and shoot down that private jet that OS mentioned carrying the crude device.

ah, jaded .com .... read ALL the old sci fi plots.

Well of course you have and - seriously now - you're dead on about squandering the peace dividend.

what bugs me about the kneejerk "we'll just nuke em" response is that the threat of retaliation won't deter the jihadis and it won't prevent the potentially catastrophic damage.

badanov nails the problem in #2 - hardening everything is not affordable or practical - so we'd better do the ole defense in depth thing. and that will be expensive, controversial and probably ain't gonna happen.

I'm not optimistic about this, just hope we get lucky and do what we can.

Posted by wired in 2005-04-23 9:14:54 PM|| 2005-04-23 9:14:54 PM|| Front Page Top

#26 "Wired In", thats a viable scenario. Not one of the more probable ones, but a considered one none-the-less. THere is pre-planning for all these things, but much of it had not been reviewd since the end of the Cold War, unless you're in a hurricane or earthquake zone. Ironically, Miami and San Francisco might be better set to deal with this sort of thing than would be Chicago or NY.

The 2 largest problems areas would be a densely populated (human and exonomically) area like NYC. The number of displaced persons and the loss to GNP would be staggering. The blessing here is that the area around them is very rich in terms of "sustainment grid" outside of the affected area, and able to sustain a combined relief-in-place with an orderly evacuation.

The other one is an isolated but fairly large city, like Seattle, Phoenix, Denver or Las Vegas. There is simply no place nearby to relocate the million+ that would need to be moved out of the unsustainable area, and they are all far away from other major metro areas. The "sustainment grid" they are a nexus of is very thin outside of the potentially affected areas.

The biggest impact would be GNP loss, and a loss of key economic components that are primarily existent in the EMP'd area. That loss would be enough to crumble the international economy - at a minimum it would devastate the dollar and the US government's ability to sustain itself via the bond/treasury functions due to loss of confidence in US Dollars and the damages done to the US financial markets.

The multibillion dolalr dislocations resulting from just the WTC hits were a drop in the bucket compared to what an EMP would have done.

Hardening this kind of control circuity is not all that expensive - we are not talking about armoring transformers, just the little black boxes on the sides of them. Same goes for police/emergency communications circuitry, and water/sewage pumping and processing controllers. We already have a pretty good inventory accounting of them left from the Y2K scares. Time to require that they be serviced at least onece in the next 4 years, and when serviced, must be shielded. For most, that would be an install of a shielded grounded box around them.

The key is to be able to get 4 things protected and restored VERY quickly: Electricity, Water/Sewage, Communications and Transportation.

Electricity is key because it critical for the other 3 elements (transportation needs electricity to function - especially railroad control elements for the largest bulk-movers that would be needed).

Posted by OldSpook 2005-04-23 9:29:28 PM|| 2005-04-23 9:29:28 PM|| Front Page Top

#27 Well, we're on the same wavelength. We are at war with the Wahhabis and their ilk, and have been since the '73 oil embargo. That we are so PC-ized is our greatest weakness and vulnerability. We could spend a LOT less on trying to shore up defenses if we got offensive, and I mean more so than knocking off the Taleban and Saddam. The Black Hats in Iran and the House of Saud are the keys. I don't know how long you've been frequenting the 'Burg, but some of us have advocated some strong offensive tactics.

We all know that the majority of the individuals in the jihadi movement are mercs, even if they don't quite realize it. The fun would go right out of it if they had to row across the Atlantic to hit us. The money is the key and it comes from oil. Decap the Mad Mullahs (and zap every nuke & missile related facility, of course) and take the eastern shore of the Gulf away from the Wahhabis and almost everything ends, and damned fast.

I'm not being snotty, honest, but these ideas are years old around here. I would welcome any ideas you have along those lines (defunding the shitheads), for that is where the rubber really meets the road - not waiting around to get plastered.

Posted by .com 2005-04-23 9:29:51 PM|| 2005-04-23 9:29:51 PM|| Front Page Top

#28 How long have I been around RB? Oh, 2 yrs or so ;-).

OS and I have a little different take on what's required for mission-critical shielding in the civ sector. All that fiber we've pulled in the last decade will help some, but I've dealt w/ local/regional/state police & emergency agencies and let's just say it aint' gonna happen according to OS' sensible suggestion unless the Feds ram it down their throats along with money ... most likely by requiring a national standard for the systems, which has been proposed many times and shot down by senators and govs each time.

agree, .com - we've been at war since 73. The challenge is to take down the Kingdom and the MM without crashing the world economy. That's going to be tricky ... means decapitating the leadership without destabilizing the oil production. Not that I'm particularly fond of the EuroWeasels, but the reality is that we trade a lot with them and will continue to do so for a good while before they sink entirely into irrelevancy. And their economies are incredibly fragile.

So it's a balancing act and my own take is that special ops work - actual and figurative - will be most of what we do.

Posted by wired in 2005-04-23 9:41:05 PM|| 2005-04-23 9:41:05 PM|| Front Page Top

#29 Hardening isn't any mysterious process. But just tossing a shield around everthing doesn't do it. You also have to isolate every connection going in and out of the box and, condition the power it runs on as well. Not inpossible, but filddly work that has to be done right. If it's wrong, the EMP gets through and, you have a door stop not a working device.

Beyond "defunding the shitheads" make the oil they sell worthless. Someting newer and better that replaces it for less. Build a better mouse trap. Smash anyone or group that gets in the way of doing it. Wean the world off of the the shitheads oil and let them try and eat it if they think they can.

I have kept gear that will work even after an EMP event. I used to make sure I had transportation that would too. Now thats harder to do. Being proactive instead of reactive cost more but your way ahead.

Posted by Sock Puppet 0â Doom 2005-04-23 9:48:15 PM|| 2005-04-23 9:48:15 PM|| Front Page Top

#30 Don't have a vacuum tube radio. We do keep an emergency kit and food and water, and guns and ammo. Need to add a good sized generator and fuel for it when we can afford to.

Posted by too true 2005-04-23 9:51:58 PM|| 2005-04-23 9:51:58 PM|| Front Page Top

#31 Don't go to a certain Schaumburg IL communications company for your hardened electronics. They offshore almost everything to China or India. You couldn't trust it! I say this from the biased point of view but stand by it. They can't be trusted.

Posted by 3dc 2005-04-23 10:12:11 PM|| 2005-04-23 10:12:11 PM|| Front Page Top

#32 Wired in, I were, of course, flippant. ;-)

Pretty aware that when there is a will there is a way. That goes both ways. We must anticipate all potential delivery modes, and figure out how to prevent them.

Posted by Sobiesky 2005-04-23 10:45:25 PM|| 2005-04-23 10:45:25 PM|| Front Page Top

#33 One last comment on all this. OS is correct that the worst-case scenario is not the most likely one. A 1000 mi deposition area would most likely mean a fusion device at 75,000-100,000 feet, exploded south of NYC, to catch as much of the midAtlantic region as possible, down to DC and up to Boston at the edges.

That's not likely to be something picked up by amateurs. That would be state sponsored. Which is not an impossible scenario in the next 10 years or so. Not likely, but not impossible.

Re: plans, sure there are some. But if they aren't recent they may be unrealistic. Think about how many more things are dependent on electronics and embedded computer chips today vs. the end of the Cold War. For certain many of the communications switching points are more vulnerable to the edges of a pulse than they were in the late 80s / early 90s. Cars, police/fire/ems radios, all the other things that have been mentioned before.

I know there are people who know this. The question is, can we assemble a sober populace who also understands it and supports the measures needed to defend against it?

Posted by wired in 2005-04-23 10:49:10 PM|| 2005-04-23 10:49:10 PM|| Front Page Top

#34 The E-Bomb
The E-Bomb
In the blink of an eye, electromagnetic bombs could throw civilization back 200 years. And terrorists can build them for next to nothing.

The Next Pearl Harbor

The next Pearl Harbor will not announce itself with a searing flash of nuclear light or with the plaintive wails of those dying of Ebola or its genetically engineered twin. You will hear a sharp crack in the distance. By the time you mistakenly identify this sound as an innocent clap of thunder, the civilized world will have become unhinged. Fluorescent lights and television sets will glow eerily bright, despite being turned off. The aroma of ozone mixed with smoldering plastic will seep from outlet covers as electric wires arc and telephone lines melt. Your Palm Pilot and MP3 player will feel warm to the touch, their batteries overloaded. Your computer, and every bit of data on it, will be toast. And then you will notice that the world sounds different too. The background music of civilization, the whirl of internal-combustion engines, will have stopped. Save a few diesels, engines will never start again. You, however, will remain unharmed, as you find yourself thrust backward 200 years, to a time when electricity meant a lightning bolt fracturing the night sky. This is not a hypothetical, son-of-Y2K scenario. It is a realistic assessment of the damage the Pentagon believes could be inflicted by a new generation of weapons--E-bombs.

Illusttation by Edwin Herder

The first major test of an American electromagnetic bomb is scheduled for next year. Ultimately, the Army hopes to use E-bomb technology to explode artillery shells in midflight. The Navy wants to use the E-bomb's high-power microwave pulses to neutralize antiship missiles. And, the Air Force plans to equip its bombers, strike fighters, cruise missiles and unmanned aerial vehicles with E-bomb capabilities. When fielded, these will be among the most technologically sophisticated weapons the U.S. military establishment has ever built.

There is, however, another part to the E-bomb story, one that military planners are reluctant to discuss. While American versions of these weapons are based on advanced technologies, terrorists could use a less expensive, low-tech approach to create the same destructive power. "Any nation with even a 1940s technology base could make them," says Carlo Kopp, an Australian-based expert on high-tech warfare. "The threat of E-bomb proliferation is very real." POPULAR MECHANICS estimates a basic weapon could be built for $400.

An Old Idea Made New

The theory behind the E-bomb was proposed in 1925 by physicist Arthur H. Compton--not to build weapons, but to study atoms. Compton demonstrated that firing a stream of highly energetic photons into atoms that have a low atomic number causes them to eject a stream of electrons. Physics students know this phenomenon as the Compton Effect. It became a key tool in unlocking the secrets of the atom.

Ironically, this nuclear research led to an unexpected demonstration of the power of the Compton Effect, and spawned a new type of weapon. In 1958, nuclear weapons designers ignited hydrogen bombs high over the Pacific Ocean. The detonations created bursts of gamma rays that, upon striking the oxygen and nitrogen in the atmosphere, released a tsunami of electrons that spread for hundreds of miles. Street lights were blown out in Hawaii and radio navigation was disrupted for 18 hours, as far away as Australia. The United States set out to learn how to "harden" electronics against this electromagnetic pulse (EMP) and develop EMP weapons.

America has remained at the forefront of EMP weapons development. Although much of this work is classified, it's believed that current efforts are based on using high-temperature superconductors to create intense magnetic fields. What worries terrorism experts is an idea the United States studied but discarded--the Flux Compression Generator (FCG).

A Poor Man's E-Bomb

An FCG is an astoundingly simple weapon. It consists of an explosives-packed tube placed inside a slightly larger copper coil, as shown below. The instant before the chemical explosive is detonated, the coil is energized by a bank of capacitors, creating a magnetic field. The explosive charge detonates from the rear forward. As the tube flares outward it touches the edge of the coil, thereby creating a moving short circuit. "The propagating short has the effect of compressing the magnetic field while reducing the inductance of the stator [coil]," says Kopp. "The result is that FCGs will produce a ramping current pulse, which breaks before the final disintegration of the device. Published results suggest ramp times of tens of hundreds of microseconds and peak currents of tens of millions of amps." The pulse that emerges makes a lightning bolt seem like a flashbulb by comparison.

An Air Force spokesman, who describes this effect as similar to a lightning strike, points out that electronics systems can be protected by placing them in metal enclosures called Faraday Cages that divert any impinging electromagnetic energy directly to the ground. Foreign military analysts say this reassuring explanation is incomplete.

The India Connection

The Indian military has studied FCG devices in detail because it fears that Pakistan, with which it has ongoing conflicts, might use E-bombs against the city of Bangalore, a sort of Indian Silicon Valley. An Indian Institute for Defense Studies and Analysis study of E-bombs points to two problems that have been largely overlooked by the West. The first is that very-high-frequency pulses, in the microwave range, can worm their way around vents in Faraday Cages. The second concern is known as the "late-time EMP effect," and may be the most worrisome aspect of FCG devices. It occurs in the 15 minutes after detonation. During this period, the EMP that surged through electrical systems creates localized magnetic fields. When these magnetic fields collapse, they cause electric surges to travel through the power and telecommunication infrastructure. This string-of-firecrackers effect means that terrorists would not have to drop their homemade E-bombs directly on the targets they wish to destroy. Heavily guarded sites, such as telephone switching centers and electronic funds-transfer exchanges, could be attacked through their electric and telecommunication connections.

Knock out electric power, computers and telecommunication and you've destroyed the foundation of modern society. In the age of Third World-sponsored terrorism, the E-bomb is the great equalizer.
First published in Popular Mechanics September 2001

Illustration by John Batchalor

To ignite an E-bomb, a starter current energizes the stator coil, creating a magnetic field. The explosion expands the tube, sort-circuiting the coil and compressing the magnetic field forward. The pulse is emitted at high frequencies that defeat protective devices like Faraday Cages.
http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/military/2001/9/e-bomb/print.phtml

Last updated 04/11/2002

Posted by john 2005-04-23 10:53:07 PM|| 2005-04-23 10:53:07 PM|| Front Page Top

#35 Okay, john, good post. Now we have to kill you. ;-)

Posted by .com 2005-04-23 11:09:17 PM|| 2005-04-23 11:09:17 PM|| Front Page Top

#36 John posted unclassified versions of part of the High Energy Radio Frequency things I was talking about.

Telephone exchanges are a bit less vulnerable to this sort of damage, at least on a permanent basis. Same goes for the breaker based gear in the power distribution system - its designed to kick out and handle the late surges that come in over the lines. Thats why airburst EMP is such a threat to it - its NOT designed to handle an ionized air-based surge.

The problem is that the pulses of this stuff, being coil based, tends to be linear/directional, instead of omni like a nuclear based EMP is. Secondly, the "worming around" is crap - the higher the frequency, the more linear it tends to be IIRC, thus the folded venting will not allow mWave to "worm" unless its constructed liek a waveguide.

Studying that stuff is part of the weaponization research that one can find on this sort of weaponry, if one knows where to look.

Posted by OldSpook 2005-04-24 12:00:29 AM|| 2005-04-24 12:00:29 AM|| Front Page Top

00:00 OldSpook
23:45 OldSpook
23:09 .com
22:53 john
22:49 wired in
22:45 Sobiesky
22:12 3dc
22:02 3dc
21:51 too true
21:49 JosephMendiola
21:48 Sock Puppet 0â Doom
21:44 OldSpook
21:41 wired in
21:40 Barbara Skolaut
21:29 .com
21:29 OldSpook
21:24 Matt
21:20 Sock Puppet 0â Doom
21:14 wired in
21:09 Deacon Blues
21:05 .com
21:02 Sobiesky
20:59 mmurray821
20:54 wired in