Article

2005-07-16 Britain

Anger Burns on the Fringe of Britain's Muslims

Archived material is restricted to Rantburg regulars and members. If you need access email fred.pruitt=at=gmail.com with your nick to be added to the members list. There is no charge to join Rantburg as a member.

Posted by JAB 2005-07-16 00:35|| || Front Page|| [11 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 The grievances of the boys of Cross Flats Parks have not propelled them toward political action. But Dr. Waheed, a practicing psychiatrist, and Mr. Khan, a documentary filmmaker, are acting on their alienation.

Posted by 2b 2005-07-16 02:38|| 2005-07-16 02:38|| Front Page Top

#2 The truth about Moslems:

A recent poll commissioned by The Guardian found that 84 percent of Muslims surveyed were against the use of violence for political means...

Semantics. What about violence for RELIGIOUS means? according to Islam there is no political sphere, all social and personal acts are religious. Violence for religious means is called jihad.

...only 33 percent of Muslims said they wanted more integration into mainstream British culture.

Arrest their leaders. Try them for treason unless they explicitly abandon taqiya, jihad and sharia. Get them to give up Islam or execute them.

Posted by Kalle (kafir forever) 2005-07-16 03:42|| 2005-07-16 03:42|| Front Page Top

#3 The West needs to ship them all back to the countries of their ethnic origin. Better to do this now, then watch the blood of our children and grandchildren spilled later. Islam is Satanism clear and simple. God doesn't want you to "Submit" to him, Satan does. God loves, Satan (therefore) Islam hates. It's written as clear as day in the Koran. The world just needs to remove their heads from their collective arses and see it. PC will be the death of us all.

Posted by 98zulu 2005-07-16 06:59|| 2005-07-16 06:59|| Front Page Top

#4 'The bombers are an exception among Britain's 1.6 million Muslims. But their actions have highlighted a lingering question: why are second-generation British Muslims who should seemingly be farther up the road of assimilation rejecting the country in which they were born and raised?

Because their ungrateful parents and religion teach them to despise the very society that brings them material comfort unknown to their co-religionists in actual muslim countries. Logic and gratitude are not the hallmarks of islamic culture.'

Islam does not teach them to despise society but to integrate with ones own society, why socialise within a society thats not your own, what have you to gain from it, except veering away from your own people to the Kafirs. And simply its not worth it.

Islam teaches us to be content with what we have and are given and to be grateful for what we have.

NEXT TIME READ MORE ABOUT A SUBJECT-IE ISLAM BEFORE MAKING DECEPTIVE, SYNICAL , FRIVOLOU & INGENUOUS REMARKS.CHECK YOUR FACTS!

Posted by Grulet Hupinens8491 2005-07-16 07:39|| 2005-07-16 07:39|| Front Page Top

#5 oh baby assimilate, it's the only way we can relate

baby baby baby lieber mine!
no bombs that's so unkind!
baby!

baby baby give me a heil!

Iraq poland france stop the bombs and let's romance!

Baby baby give me a heil!

/just watched the producers again

Posted by Abu Shawn 2005-07-16 07:46|| 2005-07-16 07:46|| Front Page Top

#6 Ima call thisn Gen Tile On my Mind

It's knowin' that your door is always open
And your path is free to walk
That makes me tend to leave my boomin bag
Rolled up and stashed way beneath your couch
And it's knowin' I'm not shackled
like in Gitmo or Bagram
And the blood stains that have dried upon some Jooo
That keeps you in the tribal lands
By the rivers of my pee stains
That keeps you ever gentle on my mind

Posted by Abu Shawn 2005-07-16 07:54|| 2005-07-16 07:54|| Front Page Top

#7 '#3 The West needs to ship them all back to the countries of their ethnic origin. Better to do this now, then watch the blood of our children and grandchildren spilled later. Islam is Satanism clear and simple. God doesn't want you to "Submit" to him, Satan does. God loves, Satan (therefore) Islam hates. ~~It's written as clear as day in the Koran.~~ The world just needs to remove their heads from their collective arses and see it. PC will be the death of us all.'

If Islam is satanism, then why is that Allah(God) promises all the believers who submit to Him The Gardens of Paradise, where as those who are Kafirs-Non Believers, they are promised the Hell Fire?- IT IS WRITTEN AS CLEAR AS DAY IN THE QU'RAN.

Another meaning of a verse from the Qu'ran is:
Satan threatens you with poverty and orders you to commit Evil deeds & Sins, where as Allah promises you forgiveness from Himself & bounty and All is All-Sufficient for His Creatures' need, All Knower- So Islam still Satanism,

GET YOUR FACTS STRAIGHT BEFORE YOU POINT FINGERS WITH YOUR MINDLESS AND PRESUMPTOUS REMARKS.

Posted by Grulet Hupinens8491 2005-07-16 07:57|| 2005-07-16 07:57|| Front Page Top

#8 #3 The West needs to ship them all back to the countries of their ethnic origin. Better to do this now, then watch the blood of our children and grandchildren spilled later. Islam is Satanism clear and simple. God doesn't want you to "Submit" to him, Satan does. God loves, Satan (therefore) Islam hates. It's written as clear as day in the Koran. The world just needs to remove their heads from their collective arses and see it. PC will be the death of us all.

YOU SHOULD BE SHIPPED BACK TO HELL!

Posted by Annabell Swarski657 2005-07-16 07:59|| 2005-07-16 07:59|| Front Page Top

#9 Interesting meme - Islam is Satanist. I'm a card-carrying athiest, so I don't have a dog in this fight, but I think this might have legs.

Posted by phil_b 2005-07-16 08:38|| 2005-07-16 08:38|| Front Page Top

#10 The bombers are an exception among Britain's 1.6 million Muslims.

Only in the sence that fighter jet pilots are an exception among 300 million Americans.

Posted by gromgoru 2005-07-16 08:49|| 2005-07-16 08:49|| Front Page Top

#11 Islam does not teach them to despise society but to integrate with ones own society, why socialise within a society thats not your own, what have you to gain from it, except veering away from your own people to the Kafirs.

You might gain a little understanding which breeds patience which breeds tolerance which will (hopefully) allow us all to live together on this small blue marble for some time yet before we exterminate one another completely. Or at least that's the naive kaffir view on the whole thing but then most of us don't suffer from megalomaniacal delusions driven by a frothing-at-the-mouth sort of religious frenzy either so I suppose our perspectives could differ somewhat.

Oh, and another good reason is because most kaffir are skilled with the CAPS-LOCK key and the proper application of boldface type. You could clearly use a little help there.

And simply its not worth it.

Of course it isn't. Allan has promised that the kaffir will fall before your sword or eventually see the light of Islam hasn't he? Thus it would be utterly pointless to even attempt to integrate into a society whose destruction your god has preordained, no? Well that is unless you'd like to learn how to crawl out of the sort of 6th century barbarism in which Muslim society still helplessly wallows centuries after the kaffir figured things out. But I suppose that would be expecting quite a lot wouldn't it? Never pays to overestimate one's fellow man.

You'll have to excuse me now, I have to tend to another batch of bacon grease rounds that are just about ready to come out of the oven.

Posted by AzCat 2005-07-16 08:57|| 2005-07-16 08:57|| Front Page Top

#12 AzCat
unless you'd like to learn how to crawl out of the sort of 6th century barbarism in which Muslim society still helplessly wallows centuries after the kaffir figured things out.

Hey AzCat. You're being offensive to 6th century. Middle East would be a lot better off if its level of civilization preceeding Islamic conquest were to be regained.

Posted by gromgoru 2005-07-16 09:04|| 2005-07-16 09:04|| Front Page Top

#13 You're right of course, I'm being culturally insensitive to all of those civilizations Islam ground under its bootheel. No tofu for me tonight. :(

Posted by AzCat 2005-07-16 09:06|| 2005-07-16 09:06|| Front Page Top

#14 to displace corrupt dictators in the Muslim world,

So they're working on Iran, Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, etc. too? Or does that not attract the media the way New York and London does?

Posted by Bobby 2005-07-16 09:20|| 2005-07-16 09:20|| Front Page Top

#15

If Islam is satanism, then why is that Allah(God) promises all the believers who submit to Him The Gardens of Paradise, where as those who are Kafirs-Non Believers, they are promised the Hell Fire?- IT IS WRITTEN AS CLEAR AS DAY IN THE QU'RAN.

Uh, because Satan is a liar.
It's just that simple.
98zulu nailed it--I decided that Islam was Satanism at about 9:30 a.m. on 9/11/01.
"By their fruits shall ye know them..." says the Bible.
What are the fruits of the followers of Mohammed?
Lies and murder.
Who's the Lord of lies and death?
(I'll ring in here.)
The Devil, that's who.

Posted by Jennie Taliaferro">Jennie Taliaferro 2005-07-16 09:30|| http://www.greatestjeneration.com]">[http://www.greatestjeneration.com] 2005-07-16 09:30|| Front Page Top

#16 Regardless of what Islam really is, there is no other way for a deeply religious young man to become a terrorist but that his parents and religion taught him to be that way.

My immigrant forbears taught my parents to be grateful for what a wonderful country they immigrated to and how much better it was than where they came from. This is true of most Americans, and I suspect most muslim immigrants to America. It is clearly not the case with these people in the UK. Yet they have much to be grateful for. It's a lot nicer than Pakistan and the pay is better too.

The post attacking my admittedly harsh comments is self contradictory. You either integrate or you don't. You are either grateful or not. If Islam, as practiced in Leeds, taught people to be content with what they have and to integrate and socialize to an extent with British society, 7/7 would not have happened.

What really concerns me is that we may be able to discourage terrorism by making it clear it's not a winning tactic, but we will still be dealing with people who think it would be understandable and acceptable if it worked.

Posted by JAB 2005-07-16 09:37|| 2005-07-16 09:37|| Front Page Top

#17 If Islam is satanism, then why is that Allah(God) promises all the believers who submit to Him The Gardens of Paradise, where as those who are Kafirs-Non Believers, they are promised the Hell Fire?- IT IS WRITTEN AS CLEAR AS DAY IN THE QU'RAN.

So you have plenty of toilet paper.

Posted by badanov 2005-07-16 09:41|| http://www.freefirezone.org]">[http://www.freefirezone.org] 2005-07-16 09:41|| Front Page Top

#18 I am religious, BTW, and do not consider Islam to be equivalent to Satanism.

However, the death cult nature of the adversary, does remind me of the nutty satanic cults or fads that occasionally flare up in Western countries (think Columbine).

However, I see the West immediately tamping down such attitudes when they emerge while the Islamic world seems to say: "I don't agree, BUT..."

Posted by JAB 2005-07-16 09:42|| 2005-07-16 09:42|| Front Page Top

#19 Hey Grulet! Try this URL: http://www.islamundressed.com/

It does an devastating job of showing mohammedism for what it really is - a system for implementing arab racism and imperialism.

Posted by Brett 2005-07-16 10:13|| 2005-07-16 10:13|| Front Page Top

#20 GH8491: If Islam is satanism, then why is that Allah(God) promises all the believers who submit to Him The Gardens of Paradise, where as those who are Kafirs-Non Believers, they are promised the Hell Fire?- IT IS WRITTEN AS CLEAR AS DAY IN THE QU'RAN.

Because bad people don't think of themselves as bad people. Hitler never described what he did as a bad thing - he thought it was a positive good that the world should be cleansed of the lesser races. When Muhammad urged his followers to rape the widows of the soldiers in lands he had conquered, he used the euphemism "marry" to describe their rape. When he committed atrocities, he did them in Allah's name. The Communists who killed tens of millions of people carried out their deeds in the name of the people.

Posted by Zhang Fei">Zhang Fei 2005-07-16 10:20|| http://timurileng.blogspot.com]">[http://timurileng.blogspot.com] 2005-07-16 10:20|| Front Page Top

#21 Just look at Islam's holy prophet himself. Muhammad (MHRIH) himself was a:

Murderer

Pirate / Robber

Thief

Liar

Pedophile

Rapist

Murderer

And this is from the Quran itself. I guess those would be his good points...

Checkout www.faithfreedom.org

Posted by CrazyFool 2005-07-16 10:27|| 2005-07-16 10:27|| Front Page Top

#22 Always for "the better good"

Posted by Bobby 2005-07-16 10:29|| 2005-07-16 10:29|| Front Page Top

#23 Immigrants optimally integrate in three generations. The first is "old country", who scrape by, work hard and don't usually cause too much trouble. The second generation are neither here-nor-there and often form gangs and mafias. Third generation are pretty well integrated and have lost most ties to the old country. However, in this case, the second generation are being easily manipulated by radicals from other countries who have no intent to really immigrate or to assimilate, just to make trouble. The solution is to first kick out the agitators, then to break up any ghettos of immigrants, to rapidly accelerate integration. Gangs and mafias are crippled if deprived of their 'hoods, and the grinding poverty of a community deprived of economic development. They seek to keep their "people" poor and discontented, both with their lot and society at large, thus protecting the power of the gang.

Posted by Anonymoose 2005-07-16 10:47|| 2005-07-16 10:47|| Front Page Top

#24 They seek to keep their "people" poor and discontented, both with their lot and society at large, thus protecting the power of the gang.

Thats the Democratic party in a nutshell.

Posted by CrazyFool 2005-07-16 11:12|| 2005-07-16 11:12|| Front Page Top

#25 Moose, I agree. One step would be to have the Imams in the UK record anti-Jihad PSAs for broadcast on UK TV. If they refuse, deport them.

Posted by Mrs. Davis 2005-07-16 11:18|| 2005-07-16 11:18|| Front Page Top

#26 "a lingering question: why are second-generation British Muslims who should seemingly be farther up the road of assimilation rejecting the country in which they were born and raised?"
Because they see themselves as Muslims in Britain, not British Muslims. Because Islam discourages assimilation. Because they are taught to not fraternize with non-Muslims any more than they absolutely have to. Because they have 7th century attitudes about women and many, many other topics. Because many non-Muslims see them as being to foreign and unassimilated to hire them or to invite thier kids over to play.
IT'S A SELF-INFLICTED WOUND, PEOPLE.

Posted by Neutron Tom 2005-07-16 11:49|| 2005-07-16 11:49|| Front Page Top

#27 My family's ancestors came to this country from many lands, worked hard, learned English, and fraternized with people of different origins (hence they are from many lands). That's why my grandparents and my parents and my immediate family enjoy the blessings that we do today. And that's why, in my household alone, we have Welsh, Polish, Scottish, Irish, Korean, and Asian Indian backgrounds. We are inclusive to people of good will.

On the other hand, these Muslims are non-inclusive, non-assimilating, and non-adapting. They want the benefits without the obligations. They deserve to go back to their places of family origin and stay there. But they won't go back -- because the very culture that they cherish has made their places of family origin into a hellish wasteland.

Posted by Neutron Tom 2005-07-16 12:10|| 2005-07-16 12:10|| Front Page Top

#28 Because Moslems are taught to infiltrate non-Moslem lands in order to undermine its culture and take over.

It's a death cult with a very long-term plan. All humans must either submit or die. There is no alternative, according to Islam.

As long as we ignore the long-term aims of Moslems, we won't be able to properly engage and defeat them.

Posted by Kalle (kafir forever) 2005-07-16 13:07|| 2005-07-16 13:07|| Front Page Top

#29 they are Borg

Posted by Frank G">Frank G 2005-07-16 13:28|| 2005-07-16 13:28|| Front Page Top

#30 I'm an atheist too, but I believe that if an angel had visited Mohammed it's more likely it was Lucifer. Islam = evil.

Posted by BH 2005-07-16 14:04|| 2005-07-16 14:04|| Front Page Top

#31 Mrs. D, what a great idea.

Posted by Jan 2005-07-16 14:36|| 2005-07-16 14:36|| Front Page Top

#32 Day after day I see information about muslims and the public bullshit story they pedal for the media and the idiots when caught. Then you read the wire transcripts from the same mutts and see what a liar they are. Theirs is a religion of conquest, with a soft set of tactics and some very hard tactics. They simply must not be welcome in civilized nations or the cancer starts. This is a religious war waged by the believers, with a whole pack of followers who come to western nations for the free ride, the material comforts, with absolutely no intention of assimilation or allegiance. WAKE UP people, this is deadly serious!

Posted by Just About Enough! 2005-07-16 15:50|| 2005-07-16 15:50|| Front Page Top

#33 "If Islam is satanism, then why is that Allah(God) promises all the believers who submit to Him The Gardens of Paradise, where as those who are Kafirs-Non Believers, they are promised the Hell Fire?"

Simple: your so-called "prophet" lied to you.

"Satan threatens you with poverty and orders you to commit Evil deeds & Sins, where as Allah promises you forgiveness from Himself & bounty and All is All-Sufficient for His Creatures' need."

Speaking of poverty and bounty, I would suggest you open your eyes and acknowledge what you see: practically everywhere that Islam has taken hold, we see nothing but poverty, disease, filth, squalor, ignorance, superstition, hatred, shame and violence. And where our Western, infidel ways hold, we have abundance, health and prosperity.

One would think that would tell you something; yet apparently, it does not.

You worship a false god.

Posted by Dave D. 2005-07-16 17:05|| 2005-07-16 17:05|| Front Page Top

#34 Not only do Moslems worship a false god.

They have been murdering millions and enslaving hundreds of millions in the name of Mohammed's death cult.

Make no mistake: This World War is about defeating Islam.

Posted by Kalle (kafir forever) 2005-07-16 17:47|| 2005-07-16 17:47|| Front Page Top

#35 One step would be to have the Imams in the UK record anti-Jihad PSAs for broadcast on UK TV. If they refuse, deport them.

I like the concept Mrs. D but would those predisposed to violence in Islam's name be swayed or would they see such pronouncements as mere Taqiya, allowable in defense of the faith? That Islam provides a built-in counter argument for the jihadis is likely to severely blunt the effect of any such campaign. And besides, I don't think it's the random non-observant Muslims who'll see a broadcast statement that are going to be the problem in the future, it's the ones who are radicalized in the mosques.

Posted by AzCat 2005-07-16 18:53|| 2005-07-16 18:53|| Front Page Top

#36 You and I, all of us will face death & our graves one day and the Day of Judgement, As my belief is and will remain for eternity.
For today you believe that what you know is the truth and the ONLY truth, what evidence do you have? For tomorrow is not far, when you shall be proved wrong and have to face the consequences.
Little do you know, with your naive comments, you keep Judging Prophet Muhhamed (pbuh) as an evil figure, read deeper into it and you will realize the complete opposite.
Simply mentioning quotes and opinions from what has been indoctrinated within you via the media,internet etc has blinded you.In addition to this, if there is a society that has been built to the opposite of that of which you live in well then obviously you are going to feel hatred towards it, for they practice everything you dont,its different to what you consider normal, but then who decides what is normal?
The truth will be revealed. Only for some of us, we are blessed and know it before you.
Oh and false gods? There is ONLY one God, And that is Allah-swt. My belief is mine.

Crazy fool I checked out the site and the Qu'ran has been completely taken out of context, as they have only displayed the verses against the unbelivers and plus, parts of it are completely untrue.

But why should an unbeliver be rewarded if he has not done anything to recieve the reward including believing that Allah -swt is One and has no partners and believing in the Qu'ran.

One more thing,

Islam will NEVER be Defeated MARK MY WORDS.

Posted by Grulet Hupinens8491 2005-07-16 19:35|| 2005-07-16 19:35|| Front Page Top

#37 as they have only displayed the verses against the unbelivers

Interesting. How many verses against the 'unbelievers' are there in the Koran?
How does one know if they are dealing with an unbeliever?
If they are an unbeliever today, and you treat them wrongly, what if they become a believer in your Johnny-come-lately religion later?

Posted by eLarson 2005-07-16 19:49|| http://larsonian.blogspot.com]">[http://larsonian.blogspot.com] 2005-07-16 19:49|| Front Page Top

#38 ROFL!!!

You'll just rot, worm food, fool. True terror, for you, is the realization that you're a fool, wasting your life, that no one and nothing is coming to save you. You're fucked, because you've never, not once in your pathetic existence, thought for yourself, taken off the blinders and looked at your belief system in the light of day, or had the balls to make your own choices - and live with your decisions. You're a coward, a fool, a tool, a puppet, a slave, and a waste of life. Crawl back into your hole, cretin.

You're not scary - you're hysterical.

Posted by .com 2005-07-16 19:49|| 2005-07-16 19:49|| Front Page Top

#39 We will mark your words the same way we marked Hitler's words when he said his Reich would last 1000 years. Dar al-Harb akbar, baby!

Posted by ryuge 2005-07-16 19:51|| 2005-07-16 19:51|| Front Page Top

#40 "By their fruits shall ye know them." The "fruits" of Islam are "conversion" by the sword, death, enslavement, reversion to the 8th Century, complete loss of freedom, and worship of a cult of death...totally bereft of love, praise for God, or respect for others. This Satanic cult MUST be expunged from theis planet!

Posted by Chomolet Slose8477 2005-07-16 20:12|| 2005-07-16 20:12|| Front Page Top

#41 Once again, My belief is mine, you think you know the truth, I know I know the truth.
There's a Difference.

Posted by Grulet Hupinens8491 2005-07-16 20:13|| 2005-07-16 20:13|| Front Page Top

#42 Indeed, where's the justice? Hassan Fattah writes crap like this for the NYT and Judith Miller goes to jail.

Posted by GK 2005-07-16 20:18|| 2005-07-16 20:18|| Front Page Top

#43 Anger Burns on the Fringe of Britain's Muslims....
must need new glasses...I read that as ....
Anger Burns on the Fridge of Britain's Muslims

Posted by classer 2005-07-16 20:23|| 2005-07-16 20:23|| Front Page Top

#44 Of course you "know" the truth-- just like Marshall Applewhite and his Heaven's Gate followers just "knew" back in 1997 that by killing themselves, their souls would be magically transported onto an alien spaceship hiding behind Comet Hale-Bopp.

There is absolutely no difference between their "knowing" and yours. Poor, deluded sod...

Posted by Dave D. 2005-07-16 20:23|| 2005-07-16 20:23|| Front Page Top

#45 [A] society that has been built to the opposite of that of which you live in well then obviously you are going to feel hatred towards it ....

No, hate, loathing, and intolerance flow most "naturally" from the Muslim perspective. Personally I liken Islam to the cockroach: so long as it stays out of my kitchen I am fine with allowing it to do whatever it chooses with the course of its own pathetic existence. One does not hate a cockroach in one's kitchen, one merely squishes it and moves on.

Posted by AzCat 2005-07-16 20:26|| 2005-07-16 20:26|| Front Page Top

#46 Iâm a Muslim and a Londoner, what happened wasn't Islamic and no one can prove it was or had any thing to-do with the Islamic faith.
Instead of reading extracts from the Quran, which are taken out of context to help the writer prove his/her point. Why not get a copy of the holy Quran and read it for yourself? After that whatever your opinion is, will probably be worth listening to, but before so anyone can make statements wrapped up in ignorance and hatred.
They say donât judge the car by the driver, this phrase can be easily applied to religion too, Islam isn't the fastest growing religion in the west for no reason
There is no justification for what has happened but why should the wider Muslim community be made to suffer the actions of 4 individuals
One thing that has become even more evident is the rampant ignorance and prejudice among people especially on this site

Posted by Gravimble Phalet2779 2005-07-16 20:32|| 2005-07-16 20:32|| Front Page Top

#47 There is no justification for what has happened but why should the wider Muslim community be made to suffer the actions of 4 individuals

Khobar.

Bali.

Mombasa.

New York.

Washington.

Moscow.

Beslan.

Madrid.

Taba.

London.

Baghdad.

Mosul.

Israel.

India.

Kashmir.

Short memory, or just parochial?

Posted by Pappy 2005-07-16 20:43|| 2005-07-16 20:43|| Front Page Top

#48 Left out:

Washington (sniper)

Thailand.

American Airlines flight 63

American Airlines Flight 77

More to come, no doubt.

Posted by Pappy 2005-07-16 20:51|| 2005-07-16 20:51|| Front Page Top

#49 "...what happened wasn't Islamic..."

There really isn't any point telling us that: you need to tell that to the Muslims among you who claim it is Islamic, and keep telling them, as loudly as necessary, until they damn well get it.

And if they won't heed that message, and persist in preaching murderous jihad against us "infidels", then report them to the authorities BEFORE they commit their evil deeds.

Otherwise, you've got scant grounds for complaining to us about our "prejudice" and our tendency to lump the lot of you all together at times like this.

Posted by Dave D. 2005-07-16 20:54|| 2005-07-16 20:54|| Front Page Top

#50 "They did not agree with what Mr. Tanweer had done, but made clear they shared the same sense of otherness, the same sense of siege, the same sense that their community, and Muslims in general, were in their view helpless before the whims of greater powers. Ultimately, they understood his anger..."

"A recent poll commissioned by The Guardian found that 84 percent of Muslims surveyed were against the use of violence for political means, but only 33 percent of Muslims said they wanted more integration into mainstream British culture. "

So, is otherness forced upon them or have they themselves chosen otherness? By their own votes, they have chosen to separate themselves from the host's society. The HOST's society.

A toast-here's to Westerners who refuse to be scapegoats and martyrs for Muslims' unhappiness.

Posted by jules 2 2005-07-16 20:54|| 2005-07-16 20:54|| Front Page Top

#51 A word of warning to the rabid GH Moslem: I, and many other Westerners, have read the Koran because of 9/11 --and we have connected the dots between the death cult it promotes and the destruction Moslems have wrought on the world in the last 1400 years.

The days of your death cult are counted, just as the days of the Nazi, the Bushido Japanese, the Soviet, the Aztec, and the Carthaginian were counted. The Western world will utterly destroy your cult.

Keep murdering in the name of your false god and die by the sword you keep drawing --or become a decent, free human being willing to pursue happiness on Earth. Ultimately the choice is yours --and our freedom is and will remain ours.

Short version: give up Islamofascism, or FOAD.

Posted by Kalle (kafir forever) 2005-07-16 21:07|| 2005-07-16 21:07|| Front Page Top

#52 Nobody is taking your 'freedom' away, keep it for all I care.

Pursue happiness on Earth, for how long? A Maximum of approximately 105 years. Well enjoy it then and be happy till you reach your grave.

Who guarantees your happiness anyway?

At the end of the day, My belief is mine and your belief is yours. No one can do anything to undermine it.

Posted by Grulet Hupinens8491 2005-07-16 21:21|| 2005-07-16 21:21|| Front Page Top

#53 That's pretty much what we thought until 9/11: "At the end of the day, My belief is mine and your belief is yours. "

BUT the Moslem death cult has shown its refusal to leave others live in peace.

SO we will make Islamofascists pay until your death cult is finished.

And then we will benefit from Western medicine, defeat cancer, colonize Mars, develop ever-more powerful computers, and live for hundreds of years --while Moslems keep dying in their abject poverty, willing slavery and parasitic misery.

Posted by Kalle (kafir forever) 2005-07-16 21:36|| 2005-07-16 21:36|| Front Page Top

#54 Bear with me folks, this is long-winded but does have a point.

Lots of interesting assumptions in there my Muslim friend. For example, what makes you so certain that commenters here have not read the Qur'an or the Ahadith or the interpretations of same by Islamic scholars? Personally I found them enlightening (albeit not in the way you might suppose) but ultimately not convincing.

For example and to illustrate a basic point: we in the west are routinely treated to assertions by Muslims that jihad is merely the struggle against temptation (jihad al-nafs), on occasion weâre also told that it is the struggle against the personification of evil (jihad al-Shaytaan, or literally the âstruggle against Satanâ), but always weâre told, quite truthfully, that those are merely peaceful inner struggles or requirements that Muslims speak out against evil. The adventurous commentator will also point out that such peaceful struggles are incumbent upon all Muslims, also quite true.

What is rarely, if ever, acknowledged is that Islam also requires of the Umma (Islamic nation) jihad against munaafiqeen (hypocrites) and kaffir (oppressors, infidels, unbelievers, non-Muslims). Jihad against the munaafiqeen and kaffirs is accomplished via four mechanisms: with the heart, the tongue, oneâs wealth and oneself. But all jihad is not equal, âJihad with one's hand (i.e., physical jihad, fighting) if one is able. If that is not possible then it should be with one's tongue (i.e., by speaking out). If that is not possible then it should be with one's heart (i.e., by hating the evil and feeling that it is wrong).â (Zaad al-Maâaad, 3/9-11). And, âThe greatest form of jihad is jihad with oneâs self (i.e., going oneself and fighting), followed by jihad with one's wealth, jihad by speaking out and guiding others. Daâwah is also part of jihad. But going out oneself to fight in jihad is the highest form).â (Fataawa al-Shaykh Ibn Baaz, 7/334, 335).

Such Jihad talab (against the kaffir, fought in dar al harb) via qitaal (fighting with weapons, war) is sanctioned by Muhammed as narrated in the Ahadith, ââI have been commanded to fight the people until they bear witness that there is no god but Allah and that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allaah, and establish regular prayer, and pay zakaah. If they do that, then they have protected their blood and their wealth from me, except in cases decreed by Islamic law, and their reckoning with be with Allah.â (Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 25; Muslim, 20).

The vital distinction between the various types of jihad is usually utterly lost on non-Muslims (most probably because theyâre asleep well before reaching this point in the discussion). Jihad al-nafs and jihad al-Shaytaan are required of all Muslims while jihad against the munaafiqeen and kaffir are required only of the Umma as a whole and not of any particular Muslim. That is, so long as a sufficient number of Muslims are waging jihad against the munaafiqeen and kaffir, all others need not join in as the ones actively participating satisfy the obligation of the Umma. Neat isnât it?

Further it is critical to evaluate any statements made by a Muslim in light of the doctrine of taqiya (pretense, dissimilation, lying, concealment, etc. of oneâs true goals and the nature of Islam to protect oneself from the evils of the kaffir and, most especially, to protect or advance the faith itself).

Now consider a few hypothetical statements in light of the above discussion of jihad and taqiya

1. âJihad is the peaceful inner struggle against temptation.â True but only a partial truth.
2. âTo kill innocents is not allowed in Islam.â Leaving aside the possibility of their being no innocent non-Muslims taqiya will allow the Muslim speaker to make this statement to defend the faith against the anger of the kaffir.
3. âI do not believe in violence.â Violent physical struggle (qitaal) against the kaffir isnât required of the speaker so long as a sufficient number of those from the Umma are already carrying that burden.

We could play this game all evening but you get the idea. The âlogicâ of Islam that those raised with it find so elegant is merely childish circular reasoning sprinkled with enough deception to keep the kaffir off balance.

Bleah.

Posted by AzCat 2005-07-16 21:39|| 2005-07-16 21:39|| Front Page Top

#55 And GH, you can keep your freedom, too, just don't mess with mine!

I once thought some of the best 'Christians' I ever knew were Muslim. I saw more kindness and care for fellow humans in Morocco that in several other places.

No, I do not want to convert to anything else - I admire aspects of Catholics, Muslims, Hindus, Buddists,and Jews, but happen to attend a Methodist (protestant Christian) church. 'Live and let live', as the saying goes, or failing that, - if that's not good enought for you, then - like the James Bond song goes - 'Live and Let Die'.

Posted by Bobby 2005-07-16 21:44|| 2005-07-16 21:44|| Front Page Top

#56 And GH, you can keep your freedom, too, just don't mess with mine!

I once thought some of the best 'Christians' I ever knew were Muslim. I saw more kindness and care for fellow humans in Morocco that in several other places.

No, I do not want to convert to anything else - I admire aspects of Catholics, Muslims, Hindus, Buddists,and Jews, but happen to attend a Methodist (protestant Christian) church. 'Live and let live', as the saying goes, or failing that, - if that's not good enought for you, then - like the James Bond song goes - 'Live and Let Die'.

Posted by Bobby 2005-07-16 21:44|| 2005-07-16 21:44|| Front Page Top

#57 There's a first time for everything - including double postings. The Burg seems a bit slow tonight, no?

Posted by Bobby 2005-07-16 21:46|| 2005-07-16 21:46|| Front Page Top

#58 #51 A word of warning to the rabid GH Moslem: I, and many other Westerners, have read the Koran because of 9/11 --and we have connected the dots between the death cult it promotes and the destruction Moslems have wrought on the world in the last 1400 years

well i can see this isn't getting anywhere, when reading something determined to hate it and the people that follow it, with such a narrow stream of thought nothing is really gonna come out of reading the Quran. just to mention a few,
the christian crusades
tamil tigers of siri lanka (Hindu)
IRA (catholic)
present day isreal (Jewish)
the Bush adminisration (satan!)
the indian army in kashmire (speaking as a kashmiri)
the actions of these people wouldn't you consider that as destrustion and vilations of human rights ( especially in kashmire why do you think they've been fighting for the past 50 years, for their basic human rights)
i could go on ...the last 1400 years,
its quiet easy when there is a group of people to blame, building your understanding of a situation purily from media which is obviously bias and inaccuarte most of the time

Posted by GH 2005-07-16 21:47|| 2005-07-16 21:47|| Front Page Top

#59 Nobody is taking your 'freedom' away, keep it for all I care.

Why the scare quotes around freedom, there GH? Are you afraid of TRUE freedom? You know, the kind where you actually research each and every religion/belief system and come to your own conclusions, instead of being brainwashed and beating your head on the floor "praying" toward Mecca? Here's my summary....You and your death cult go all the way back to (basically) a family feud. You see, you are spawn of Ishmael, while the Jews (and, thus, the Christians) were spawn of Issac. Let's see whom the TRUE God favors. Don't mean/want to break this down to a religious flame-fest, but check out Genesis 16:11-12, then Gen. 17:10, and then Genesis 17: 19-21. God makes his covenant with the seed of Abraham (Issac, his son), and Ishmael shall "be a wild man, his hand will be against every man, and every man's hands against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren." In other words, Ishmael was an illigitimate child (by Abram's wife's maidservant) who would war against his step-brothers and their descendants (the Jews). Sound familiar anyone?

Posted by BA">BA 2005-07-16 21:48|| 2005-07-16 21:48|| Front Page Top

#60 BA - so current events are a fullfullment of prophecy from Genesis? Whoa! Writen over 3,000 years ago? Before even Nostradameus? How cosmic! That stuff is twice as old as GH's!

Posted by Bobby 2005-07-16 22:05|| 2005-07-16 22:05|| Front Page Top

#61 uhhhhh, GH?

The LTTE (google it) attacks Buddhists, not mohammedeans.

The glorious Crusades were a response to the aggressive depradations of mohammedeans.

The entire history of mohammedism has been one of aggression or war. Today, almost every conflict is between mohammedeans and other mohammedeans, or sometime non-mohammedeans. Mohammedism=war.

And, I sure hope you notice what I am calling that cult of yours. Worshipping a man who claimed to be the final profit. Nothing but a arab rascist.

'nuff said.

Posted by Brett 2005-07-16 22:07|| 2005-07-16 22:07|| Front Page Top

#62 As a brave Englishman said to a Frenchman, GH, "I fart in your general direction". Now, goodbye.

Posted by Brett 2005-07-16 22:09|| 2005-07-16 22:09|| Front Page Top

#63 GH will be along shortly to describe how Islam, which came last of the major middle eastern religions, has abrogated all the corrupted faiths that came before. Right GH?

Posted by AzCat 2005-07-16 22:10|| 2005-07-16 22:10|| Front Page Top

#64 GH, speaking as a Kashmiri, you are full of sh*t:
Kashmir is part of India. Hellooooooo!
You Sunni bastards got Pakistan--and how much blood has been shed over that?!
Plenty.
The whole of Islamic history is soaked in blood--all 1400 years of it--starting with Mohammed and we don't feel like wearing stilts to walk amongst the gajillion severed heads you've hacked off.
You people are going down and I'm going to help.
Crusade: Bring it on!

Posted by Jennie Taliaferro">Jennie Taliaferro 2005-07-16 22:10|| http://www.greatestjeneration.com]">[http://www.greatestjeneration.com] 2005-07-16 22:10|| Front Page Top

#65 GH - Kashmiri? Worthless muslim ghetto dweller more likely - troll in the 21st century. We don't need to change your belief or opinion. You'll die ignorant, bigoted, backwards and wrong. Inshallah!

Posted by Frank G">Frank G 2005-07-16 22:26|| 2005-07-16 22:26|| Front Page Top

#66 Bobby, not a "fulfillment of prophecy" per se. In fact, technically, I guess, it was just a prediction (at the time of Ishmael's birth) of how Ishmael himself would act. GH (and many Muslims I've spoke with) would probably say that "we share the same book with you", except the part of Issac and Ishmael. Issac was born of Sarai (Sarah), Abraham's wife. Ishmael was born of Hagar, Sarai's maidservant (and thus, illegitimate). This seems to be the ROOT separation of Judeo-Christian beliefs vs. Muslims. You see, Muslims believe that Abraham went up to sacrifice his son, ISHMAEL (not Issac, like the Torah and the Bible state). You see, the mooselimbs changed that some (just guessing here) 1,700 years later in their "holy book", whereas the Torah and Bible have always said it was Isaac (not Ishmael) that Abraham was to kill, and thus, it was Isaac's seed that would covenant with God. I (assume) take it you're not Christian (or at least, skeptical of Christianity), but this is a MAJOR point. Many scholars believe that the modern day middle east population generally descends from the line of Ishmael, which makes my quote even more interesting (from Genesis), as his descendants (generally Muslim) have been warring since their belief system was founded against everyone they live among. Before big Mo's "religion" was founded (600's AD), Ishmael's descendants would be all those nations/tribes that the Hebrews (the nation of Israel) were fighting against (from the time of Abraham on up through the time of Christ, and as many scholars believe, up to today). Thus, the hatred of the Joooooos having a nation of Israel, where they did 1,000's of years ago, under covenant w/ God. I don't mean to make this a religious flame-fest, or "simplify" it to a family feud (Issac and Ishmael were half-brothers), but many of the Christian faith see it that way (or at least take that scripture to mean what it says...that Ishmael would be a "wild man" and would be against all men and all men would be against him). That, to me, explains the whole Muslim belief system....keep to yourself, don't associate with infidels, it's "us" vs. "them", all un-believers are the "others," etc. Heck, even so-called "moderate" Muslims I've known have told me that they couldn't bring me to their mosque because they'd feel uncomfortable. I invite them to my church many times, even for a non-religious memorial service just after 9/11, and it's "NOPE, can't do it." That's what I was getting at about true freedom...the kind where you research it yourself and make up your own mind.

Posted by BA">BA 2005-07-16 22:46|| 2005-07-16 22:46|| Front Page Top

#67 BA - those were exceptional posts and should be repeated to everyone who states that we must strive to understand the "root causes" of this conflict. Bravo!

Posted by AzCat 2005-07-16 23:34|| 2005-07-16 23:34|| Front Page Top

#68 Off-topic or abusive comments deleted]

Posted by Bobby 2005-07-16 09:20|| 2005-07-16 09:20|| Front Page Top

#69 Off-topic or abusive comments deleted]

Posted by Bobby 2005-07-16 10:29|| 2005-07-16 10:29|| Front Page Top

#70 Off-topic or abusive comments deleted]

Posted by Bobby 2005-07-16 21:44|| 2005-07-16 21:44|| Front Page Top

#71 Off-topic or abusive comments deleted]

Posted by Bobby 2005-07-16 21:44|| 2005-07-16 21:44|| Front Page Top

#72 Off-topic or abusive comments deleted]

Posted by Bobby 2005-07-16 21:46|| 2005-07-16 21:46|| Front Page Top

#73 Off-topic or abusive comments deleted]

Posted by Bobby 2005-07-16 22:05|| 2005-07-16 22:05|| Front Page Top

22:05 Bobby
21:46 Bobby
21:44 Bobby
21:44 Bobby
21:30 Bobby
18:03 Bobby
18:01 Bobby
15:15 Bobby
15:13 Bobby
14:38 Bobby
10:29 Bobby
09:20 Bobby
09:01 Abu-Mushab al-Dumbo
08:12 Bobby
19:26 Educated
17:45 Murat
17:44 Murat
17:34 Murat
17:49 Educated
17:27 Murat
23:49 Frank G
23:45 Frank G
23:43 Seafarious
23:43 Tom Dooley