Article

2005-09-15 Syria-Lebanon-Iran

India Balks at Confronting Iran, Straining Its Friendship With U.S.

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Posted by DanNY 2005-09-15 00:00|| || Front Page|| [12 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 I think there is this perception that India is Uncle Sam's friend. I would call India a borderline enemy - not quite China, but a long way from even South Korea. Note that India did not send combat troops to South Korea - the only war to attain almost universal UN approval. India also supported the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan. If we are providing first-line military equipment to India, we are making a big mistake.

Posted by Zhang Fei 2005-09-15 19:18|| http://timurileng.blogspot.com]">[http://timurileng.blogspot.com] 2005-09-15 19:18|| Front Page Top

#2 Note that just about every Western European power sent troops to Korea to duke it out with Kim Il-Sung's and Mao Zedong's hordes. Ethiopia, the Philippines and Thailand sent troops. Australia and New Zealand did. But India stayed out.

Posted by Zhang Fei 2005-09-15 19:23|| http://timurileng.blogspot.com]">[http://timurileng.blogspot.com] 2005-09-15 19:23|| Front Page Top

#3 It's true that India didn't send troops to the Korean War. But they did send a MASH unit that "quickly gained the respect of Commonwealth troops for its high-quality medical care and the courage of its people when under fire" And during the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, India supported the Northern Alliance and the Soviet forces, while we supported the forerunners of the Taleban.

To say India is a borderline enemy is pretty shortsighted. As with any country, they will look after their best interests first. At this time most of their "best interests" seem to converge with ours, so we should work with them--we need to for the War on Terror to be successful by any stretch of the imagination. In addition, India is one of the few countries in the world with a positive view of the US, President Bush, and Americans in general. Having one-sixth of the world's population on our side is worth striving for.

Posted by sludge 2005-09-15 20:36|| 2005-09-15 20:36|| Front Page Top

#4 gah. I'm new here. Can't get links to work...

About the MASH unit:
http://www.korean-war.com/60thindian.html

About popular Indian view on the US, President Bush, and Americans in general:
http://billroggio.com/archives/2005/06/a_view_of_ameri.php

Posted by sludge 2005-09-15 20:39|| 2005-09-15 20:39|| Front Page Top

#5 "India is one of the few countries in the world with a positive view of the US"

Heh. I think I'll add a little "color commentary" to this thread...

While, overall, I don't disagree with the action / policy elements of your post - you have to admit there's at least one psych text on schizophrenia in that little notion. I knew a gaggle (apropos) of Indians in Saudi - to say they liked America would be laughable... Referring to the US Govt, and any US policy, not a chance.

To say they had a positive view of Americans doubly so - just bullshit - way off the mark. There was a batch of about 10 working for the same JVC outfit I did in Saudi. Lots of nicey-nice smiles until you got to know them a little and treated them as equals - then it changed - not for the better. As long as they didn't know you, they were so polite and deferential, fawning almost. When you tried to befriend them to any degree, and they realized you didn't think you were better than they were, then they suddenly acted as if they must be better than you... and dared to lecture me, and others, on our shortcomings, bad Govt, unfair advantages, yaddaÂ³. In other words - the adage about Germans, "They're either at your throat or at your feet." DEFINITELY applied to the Indians. I've never seen that behavior in Germans, so I'll leave that for others. The Indians were assholes.

I came to blows with one over the asshat Muzzy who tossed a grenade in his commander's tent in Kuwait. A guy in the office read the story's particulars aloud so all present that day (1 US - me, 2 UK, 1 IN) could discuss, he giggled. Words followed. He thought it was funny - they got what they deserved. I felt very differently and said so, but he decided he would be a prick about it and kept up a stream of idiotic comments - specifically and directly challenging me. I ran him down and bashed him in the head - as he tried to run away. After he quit whimpering, he was utterly outraged that I could or would touch him - and seemed to presume I'd go to prison or something for whacking him. The asshole.

He didn't have a fucking clue what individualism was, yet he thought he understood Americans to a T. When a Scot who was present, an ex-para and smart as hell, explained that he had asked for it - he was clueless, sputtering and whining at the same time. He, and his buddies, were pluperfect retards, in fact, regards us and the last 50-100 years of history - and perhaps much more. My favorite social fact regards them was that all of them were subject to their father's will, without question, until freakin' death. Plenty of bullshit in their society and world view, but I didn't presume to lecture them on their customs, attitudes, and norms. To say there was a shitload of mistaken ideas about us, in particular, is an understatement. And, as with all half-informed groups, they were arrogant to a breathtaking fault and wouldn't accept any correction. We've seen that sort of commentary here on RB - from someone who got all his miracles second-hand, as well. People can be remarkably dense and pig-headed.

Perhaps a batch of 10 isn't sufficient to judge an entire country of a bafuckingzillion people - but the description fit them all, and I mean all of them, so I suggest doubt is definitely due for any broad-brush Pollyanna shit, as well. Just a life experience that doesn't match the PR reports. Between some article by a guy I don't know and real-world experience, well, I'll go with my experience - the 2nd paragraph is my view.

Then, to complete the schizophrenic duality, to say they wanted to be Americans was a universal given.

That is one schizoid society, IMHO.

Posted by .com 2005-09-15 21:35|| 2005-09-15 21:35|| Front Page Top

#6 Since you only disagree with one point in my post, I'll talk about that.

I haven't personally been in Saudi Arabia, so I have nothing to counter your views there, but is this gaggle of Indians that you knew there predominantly Muslim--and thereby predisposed to hate America regardless of what nationality they might belong to? I lived in India (specifically Bangalore) for a couple of years, and my experiences are vastly different from yours. Most of them seemed to genuinely consider America a land of opportunity where they would consider migrating to if they had the opportunity. And with the war on terror, Indians I have talked to seem to support it wholeheartedly.

As far as the article I had linked is concerned, the author has a link to another site which did a broad survey on Indian (and other countries') opinion on the US. So it is not some lone joe schmoe's view either.

I completely accept that some Indians are dicks, but to quote you, "Perhaps a batch of 10 isn't sufficient to judge an entire country of a bafuckingzillion people"

Posted by sludge 2005-09-15 22:20|| 2005-09-15 22:20|| Front Page Top

#7 I think in the case of India, it's that "a bafuckingzillion people" has a lot of variability. The country's elite came into power on the idealistic/Socialistic tradition out of England, which assumed that America=evil. That so many of those who come to the States manage to get over such conditioning is perhaps a minor miracle. One of my best girlfriends, born just before/after her family emigrated to Kansas, recalls the torment of a college summer break spent staying with the family in the old country, being forced into the mold of a good Indian girl. Of course, she is Jain and her American-born husband is Hindu. And certainly lots of the menfolk in the old country aspire to be "little sultans" with their own tiny economic empire where they could be god to their employees. But the new economic openness has had an impact of many young Indians of the new middle class, as their appreciation of American-style economic -- and relatedly political -- thinking has grown along with their paychecks... for which they aren't at all beholden to Daddy. And I suspect that to the non-economically involved ~60% of the Indian population, America is about as real as Fairyland, Saudi-bound Muslim asses to the contrary.

(P.S. Well done, .com! I doubt the idiot learned from the experience, but I at least am enjoying vicarious pleasure from the tale!)

Posted by trailing wife 2005-09-15 22:43|| 2005-09-15 22:43|| Front Page Top

#8 No, they weren't Muzzies. I read the article, a poll with commentary, rather closely and wondered about each point - trying to match against my anecdotal experience. My info is only 2 yrs old, I left in 2003, so I couldn't chalk up the differences to dated info. Indeed, they all wanted to go to America to live, as I said - a universal truth, even while they bashed US policy (this was the 2000-2003 time period, so included the Iraq War).

You obviously know many more than I. The twist: you were there, in their home / comfort zone - perhaps that is part of it. I would also say that you would be a prize friend to have - in India - ever feel like you were on display? Lol.

I knew some that worked for a partner company of my employer in the US, before I went to SA. They had been imported in a batch of those infamous visas - and stuck together (7 sharing a one bedroom apt so they could save every dime), making few actual friends and having no outside social life. They all wanted to go home "rich" and be Rajas, as one laughingly explained to some of us who asked.

So you think I met a freak gaggle of psychopaths, huh?

Okay, so you knew the good ones and I met the pricks. Many factors involved, I guess. I wouldn't hire one no matter what the savings, based on my experience. BTW, IMHO a poll is only that - a poll. They don't mean squat to me. That you had different real-world experiences, however, does give me some pause.

Posted by .com 2005-09-15 22:44|| 2005-09-15 22:44|| Front Page Top

#9 Oops, overlapped with you, TW. Well, said, heh. :-)

Posted by .com 2005-09-15 22:47|| 2005-09-15 22:47|| Front Page Top

#10 Unfortunate that you have a low opinion of them, .com. One thing comes to mind--your experiences with Indians are from a part of the world where a majority of the population have anti-American sentiments. The Indians, like possibly other non-western white people in Saudi Arabia, are probably caught in Saudi media propaganda, which is, as far as I have seen, very anti-American.

Since you state that you wouldn't "Hire one no matter what the savings", I wonder what your experiences have been with Indians in the US. Have you found them to be more of the same? Or have you not met/discussed with any here yet?

Posted by sludge 2005-09-15 23:17|| 2005-09-15 23:17|| Front Page Top

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