Article

2005-12-09 Home Front: WoT

Archived material is restricted to Rantburg regulars and members. If you need access email fred.pruitt=at=gmail.com with your nick to be added to the members list. There is no charge to join Rantburg as a member.

Posted by tu3031 2005-12-09 11:13|| || Front Page|| [5 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 Compare this case with the one in Israel a week ago. A policewoman had her gun on the bomber, hesitated taking the shot- 5 killed.

Posted by Grunter 2005-12-09 12:48|| 2005-12-09 12:48|| Front Page Top

#2 tu : screaming The Lords Prayer?

Don't give them any ideas...

They will be saying that the line, "Thy kingdom come..." sounds somewhat like "I have a bomb..."

Posted by BigEd 2005-12-09 13:29|| 2005-12-09 13:29|| Front Page Top

#3 I think he was screaming out The Lords Prayer.

Our chemicals, with valence seven, Hollowed be thy shell.
Thy fuse is run. Thy primer set, in semtex as it is in C4.
Give us this day our daily boom. And forgive us our work accidents,
As we forgive nothing of those who trespass against us.
And lead us not into confusion, But deliver us from red wire â blue wire mix-ups.
For thine is the wingnut, the nuclear power and the mad pursuit thereof, for ever and ever. A-bomb.

Posted by Zenster 2005-12-09 13:30|| 2005-12-09 13:30|| Front Page Top

#4 Oh, goody, here starts the Monday morning quarterbacking....

I don't know what the National Association of the Mentally Ill has been smoking, but I'd be willing to bet that the air marshals had gone through training on how to handle crazy people. Hell, I got that kind of training, and I was only a civilian in a relative backwater.

The mentally ill are a huge percentage of the people that law enforcement/paramedics/fire personnel deal with every day. They're kind of the first responders' "frequent flyers". It seems like at least a third of the people they come into contact with are insane, and it goes up over the holidays. Some days, it seems like everyone they contact is stark raving mad.

Anyone with mental illness who is off of his or her meds is extremely unpredictable. If he was already freaking out about going on the plane, he was primed to hurt himself (most likely) or others. I'm amazed the gate agent even let him past, unless he was able to hold it together until he got on the plane.

Besides, if he said "Bomb!" in the jetway, I don't care how good your hearing is, you aren't going to hear it back in seat 21C. Not even if you are a Canine-American.

Posted by Desert Blondie 2005-12-09 13:36|| http://azjetsetchick.blogspot.com]">[http://azjetsetchick.blogspot.com] 2005-12-09 13:36|| Front Page Top

#5 "He said 'Blonde' - I'm sure of it..."

f*&king people....same kinda nitwits that can let Sami Al-Arian off...

Posted by Frank G">Frank G 2005-12-09 13:44|| 2005-12-09 13:44|| Front Page Top

Canine-Americans? Do they know a word such as "bomb" if it is not associated with food or sleep?

Posted by BigEd 2005-12-09 13:51|| 2005-12-09 13:51|| Front Page Top

#7 The airline passenger shot to death by federal marshals who said he made a bomb threat was agitated even before boarding and later appeared to be desperate to get off the plane, some fellow travelers said.

What's up with the TSA gate personnel? Didn't they notice this guy?

And so what if the guy didn't say the word "bomb"? His odd behavior was reason enough to warrant suspicion and take necessary action. If people have a problem with the way this situation was handled then maybe mental cases shouldn't fly, period.

Posted by Bomb-a-rama 2005-12-09 14:26|| 2005-12-09 14:26|| Front Page Top

#8 So why hasn't anybody asked the new widow why she didn't give the dearly departed his meds before the flight? Seems to me that a nagging spousal unit will cause a reflexive " OK I give up and will do whatever you wnat, just STFU already." reaction.
Can you say 'probing?'

Posted by USN, ret. 2005-12-09 14:47|| 2005-12-09 14:47|| Front Page Top

#9 So why hasn't anybody asked the new widow why she didn't give the dearly departed his meds before the flight? Seems to me that a nagging spousal unit will cause a reflexive " OK I give up and will do whatever you wnat, just STFU already." reaction.
Can you say 'probing?'

Posted by USN, ret. 2005-12-09 14:47|| 2005-12-09 14:47|| Front Page Top

#10 USN, people refusing to take their meds is actually pretty common. There may have been some side effect he didn't like, or he might have started to think that he could wean himself off of them once he felt better. It's like once they get "normal", they forget how messed up they were before they took the pills.

I'm more amazed that his wife would have dragged him on the plane, seeing how the whole thing was freaking him out. I mean, she couldn't have gotten a rental and driven him home from Miami? Taken the bus? Got a friend to help come get him?

(Plus.....never underestimate some men's abilities to ignore nagging....especially if they start pretending to suddenly not understand English. My dad was a past master at that one. ;) )

Posted by Desert Blondie 2005-12-09 15:53|| http://azjetsetchick.blogspot.com]">[http://azjetsetchick.blogspot.com] 2005-12-09 15:53|| Front Page Top

#11 "This is a reminder they are there and are protecting the passengers and that it is a seriously deadly business."

Ya think it Aint!?!

Posted by DepotGuy 2005-12-09 16:11|| 2005-12-09 16:11|| Front Page Top

#12 If a Mental Illness Professional is needed, it better be at the request of the Air Marshall.

Posted by DepotGuy 2005-12-09 16:15|| 2005-12-09 16:15|| Front Page Top

#13 Look, people, even if you think that the officials/employees in the airport did everything 100% right, don't you think that it's utterly utterly vile and inhumane to make fun of an innocent person dying? Shouldn't there be some regret instead of calling him a "nut" and having jokes at his death? Or is regret considered too effeminate over there, not nearly macho enough?

At times like this it's not your opinions over the action required ("kill him"), but rather your attitude about them ("hee, hee, kill him and then make fun of him and laugh over his death, and then mock everyone who even raises the point of necessity") that indicates your contempt for the lives of the innocent.

http://www.sluggy.com/daily.php?date=050724

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2005-12-09 16:50|| 2005-12-09 16:50|| Front Page Top

#14 I think he said "Blessed are the Cheesemakers..."

Posted by mojo">mojo 2005-12-09 16:50|| 2005-12-09 16:50|| Front Page Top

#15 Whoa. Overreaction by the Greek guy. Maybe he's missed his meds today. Chill, dude.

Posted by Fleasing Flomons1068 2005-12-09 16:57|| 2005-12-09 16:57|| Front Page Top

#16 If people have a problem with the way this situation was handled then maybe mental cases shouldn't fly, period.

And this, folks, is what it has come down to. Making fun of disabled people.

But don't get me wrong, it's good to air out the dirty laundry. So how about it? Who else will join this revered list?

Pathetic losers.

Posted by Rafael 2005-12-09 17:03|| 2005-12-09 17:03|| Front Page Top

#17 That's no overreaction, it's dead on accurate.

Posted by Rafael 2005-12-09 17:05|| 2005-12-09 17:05|| Front Page Top

#18 He's supposed to take his pills. He didn't take his pills. He was stupid. His wife was stupider for not making sure he took his pills. Now he's dead.
You wanna come down on somebody, Aris, save a little for them.

Posted by tu3031 2005-12-09 17:07|| 2005-12-09 17:07|| Front Page Top

#19 Tu and the rest, there's a way to defend the marshal's actions without making fun of mentally ill people.

Posted by Rafael 2005-12-09 17:16|| 2005-12-09 17:16|| Front Page Top

#20 Looks like the Gringos are dialed into the you all pysche again. Must be a gift, an understading of threads inside threads, a brilliance known but to few.

Posted by Shipman 2005-12-09 17:18|| 2005-12-09 17:18|| Front Page Top

#21 Mr. Alpizar's mental illness is not relevant to the marshal's decision to shoot. There was no way to make such a determination without presenting an unacceptable risk to innocent people, a very large number of them in fact.

"'I can't conceive that the marshals wouldn't be able to overpower an unarmed, single man, especially knowing he had already cleared every security check,' Carlos Alpizar told The Orlando Sentinel."

Nobody said they were unable to overpower him. However, they were unable to do so without an unacceptable risk that a. the security checks had failed (which has been known to happen) b. there really was a bomb and c.He was reaching to detonate it.

If a person without a diagnosed mental illness had done this, would or should the response have been any different?

The utterly predictable demonization of the authorities is understandable when we see it from the family. When it comes from the media, however, it can only be designed to inhibit the proper and necessary response in similar situations in the future.

That is, the media spin is conciously designed to empower future terrorists. To the institutional media, the world is a movie and the terrorists have the James Dean role.

Posted by Atomic Conspiracy 2005-12-09 17:22|| 2005-12-09 17:22|| Front Page Top

#22 Mr. Alpizar's mental illness is not relevant to the marshal's decision to shoot. There was no way to make such a determination without presenting an unacceptable risk to innocent people, a very large number of them in fact.

But it does make a nice WickiMan.

Posted by Shipman 2005-12-09 17:27|| 2005-12-09 17:27|| Front Page Top

#23 Mr. Alpizar's mental illness is not relevant to the marshal's decision to shoot. There was no way to make such a determination without presenting an unacceptable risk to innocent people, a very large number of them in fact.

Bravo, AC. End of story.

Posted by Zenster 2005-12-09 17:41|| 2005-12-09 17:41|| Front Page Top

#24 Bravo, AC - sad story, no happy ending, the Air Marshals deserve praise, our greek dickhead should STFU

Posted by Frank G">Frank G 2005-12-09 18:10|| 2005-12-09 18:10|| Front Page Top

#25 Frank, for a supposedly "sad story" it's caused lots of laughs over here. "Blessed are the Cheesemakers" indeed.

And I'm glad I (and Rafael) didn't choose to "STFU" over this. That's an immoral instruction: To laugh along when one should stay silent, to be silent when one ought to speak in protest.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2005-12-09 18:51|| 2005-12-09 18:51|| Front Page Top

#26 Ditto AC.

BTW: You know I didn't hear him say 'BOMB' either!

(course I am located in Seattle Washington - but I probably have just as much chance of hearing it as Mr Passenger in seat 21C could.)

Were the aircraft engines running? That would have prevented Mr 21C from hearing more then a few rows away....

Posted by CrazyFool 2005-12-09 18:58|| 2005-12-09 18:58|| Front Page Top

#27 I am humbled by being in the presence of the self-righteous. It's so refreshing. I no longer feel unclean. Perhaps I can skip the 700 Club tonight.

Posted by Glolumble Fleack9305 2005-12-09 19:34|| 2005-12-09 19:34|| Front Page Top

#28 This is almost certainly a righteous shoot whether he said the magic word or not. He was acting erratic, didn't follow the instructions of the marshalls and reached into the bag. That tends to make bad things happen.

One of the other passengers says the wife told him (while he was trying to calm her after the shots) that he was AFRAID there was a bomb on the plane - a fragment of that might have been what the marshalls heard.

But if he didn't say it and the authorities just threw it in like a drop weapon to make the thing look better, that should be a problem to anyone.

Posted by VAMark 2005-12-09 19:39|| 2005-12-09 19:39|| Front Page Top

#29 "Blessed are the Cheesemakers" indeed.

Your self-righteousness is over-riding your cultural knowledge. That comment is a reference to "Life of Brian", when someone hears "blessed are the peacemakers", from a distance and over a crowd, and repeats it as "blessed are the cheesemakers".

Good God, are you and Rafael utterly unaware of the idea of "gallows humor"? Yeah, it's a shitty thing this guy had to die. But to expect us to rend our shirts over it is expecting a bit much. The only people I feel sorry for are the air marshalls.

Posted by Robert Crawford">Robert Crawford 2005-12-09 19:48|| http://www.kloognome.com/]">[http://www.kloognome.com/] 2005-12-09 19:48|| Front Page Top

#30 LOL RC - quit teaching American/Brit humor!

Posted by Frank G">Frank G 2005-12-09 19:53|| 2005-12-09 19:53|| Front Page Top

#31 Many people with bipolar syndromes also deal with strong social anxiety, usually in public situations where they are closed in. Physical or emotional stress of any kind also triggers panic attacks in many bipolars, of an intensity it's hard to imagine if you haven't experienced it yourself or in a loved one. And sometimes the result is a psychotic break in which everything that runs through the patient's mind - including imagined conversations - is experienced as externally real and compelling.

Imagine being frightened about terrorism, stressed and wondering if anyone around you is a threat. Now slow down the mental dialogue, and imagine *experiencing* as real every passing thought. The mental shouting is overwhelming. I haven't experienced it myself, but I've been next to a loved one who has.

I believe the marshalls did what needed doing, but I am sad for this family. Mr. Alpizar himself set up the potential for a serious problem by not taking his medications -- a common and sometimes deadly choice that bipolars often make. Either they dislike the side effects or things get better on the meds and then one day they make the dangerous decision that they don't need them. Or - and this is also very common - they may feel that their past problems aren't neurochemical at all but rather (having seen the impact on their families of past actions) is a moral / ethical / spiritual issue. More than one bipolar patient has gone off meds specifically because they feel that staying on them is a cop-out, that they can/should be able to live a better life if only they tried hard enough to be good.

It is an incredibly painful process to watch and try to influence in a loved one. And so I feel deeply with his family - but disagree with his brother's assertion that the marshalls should have known he could be overpowered without danger to them or to the rest of the passengers.

Posted by lotp 2005-12-09 19:59|| 2005-12-09 19:59|| Front Page Top

#32 lotp, I don't think his brother's statement is something to be disagreed with. It is simply the blind striking out of someone in intense grief. I am sure each one of the family is questioning what they could have done to prevent the tragedy and seeking to find a reason or cause other than the painfully obvious. Before the press turned into pond scum, or perhaps before they had the capability to show us so clearly what they are, his grief could have been kept in private where it belongs.

Posted by Glolumble Fleack9305 2005-12-09 20:07|| 2005-12-09 20:07|| Front Page Top

#33 GF, yes ... a searing grief and unless I miss my bet, grief for all of it including his brother's years of illness and its impact on both his brother and the family.

I meant no insensitivity to that grief, just a gentle reminder that there is not magic wand in bipolar, some stabilize and live rich, productive lives, many don't and noone can predict for sure which will be the case for any one person. But a refusal to stay on medication is not a good sign and often leads to tragedy in one way or another: sometimes suicide, sometimes a manic high that does major financial or other damage to those around him, sometimes the latter followed by the former. No doubt Mr. Alpizar knows this but one way in which the families of bipolar sufferers help each other is to remind ourselves - gently - not to push responsibility for the tragedy onto those who did not cause it.

Posted by lotp 2005-12-09 20:21|| 2005-12-09 20:21|| Front Page Top

#34 And this, folks, is what it has come down to. Making fun of disabled people.

How so? I don't see where the "humor" is in what I posted. Someone with mental problems that results in uncontrollable behavior might be better off avoiding flying. Four years back and before, this sort of thing happening on a flight probably wouldn't have been a problem. Now it could have deadly consequences.

Is that clear enough?

Posted by Bomb-a-rama 2005-12-09 21:10|| 2005-12-09 21:10|| Front Page Top

#35 I did recognize the Monty Python reference, Robert. And you may have seen it as "gallows humour", I saw it as mere indifference and cruelty. I hope you are right and that I was wrong.

"The only people I feel sorry for are the air marshalls."

Next time, feel sorry for the innocent dead as well. Or is your pity so limited that to give it to one means you must deprive it from the other? The quality of pity is not strained; do you recognize *this* intentionally misquoted reference?

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2005-12-09 22:46|| 2005-12-09 22:46|| Front Page Top

#36 I feel bad that the air marshalls are on sabtical. This means that they aren't on the planes doing their jobs protecting us.
I also hope that all of this talk of mental illness doesn't slow the response of the marshall for the next incident that may occur. Bad things are allowed to happen by delaying a response.
No one likes that a mentally ill person had his life ended in this manner, but what is more important here is the fact of safety for all the passengers. In these times with terrorists we need to be ever vigilant, and trust in our marshalls that they are doing their job in the best way.
To be the one involved and there during this situation, VS all of the folks analyzing it after the fact, is a big difference. It's not an easy task having to assess a situation quickly and disarm a probable disaster from happening.

Posted by Jan 2005-12-09 23:35|| 2005-12-09 23:35|| Front Page Top

#37 Next time, feel sorry for the innocent dead as well. Or is your pity so limited that to give it to one means..

Sounds like you need to get over yourself.

Posted by Bomb-a-rama 2005-12-09 23:52|| 2005-12-09 23:52|| Front Page Top

#38 Some of the responses given on this thread freighten me to the bone. If winning the war on terror means taking us back to the middle ages, I'd rather take my risks and jump from a burning office tower when the time comes. In the end, the result is the same. Think about some of the comments made here.

Posted by Rafael 2005-12-10 00:01|| 2005-12-10 00:01|| Front Page Top

00:01 Rafael
23:52 Bomb-a-rama
23:35 Jan
23:30 Frank G
23:07 Babs
23:03 Gravirt Flineth9460
22:56 Mahou Sensei Negi-bozu
22:46 Aris Katsaris
22:28 Zenster
22:04 Zhang Fei
21:59 bruce
21:53 lotp
21:22 Red Dog
21:20 Bomb-a-rama
21:20 Remoteman
21:18 Asymmetrical Triangulation
21:10 Bomb-a-rama
21:08 badanov
21:07 Mark Z.
21:05 Red Dog
21:01 Redneck Jim
20:55 Frank G
20:48 head spinning
20:47 JosephMendiola