Archived material Access restricted Article
Rantburg

Today's Front Page   View All of Sat 04/01/2006 View Fri 03/31/2006 View Thu 03/30/2006 View Wed 03/29/2006 View Tue 03/28/2006 View Mon 03/27/2006 View Sun 03/26/2006
1
2006-04-01 Home Front: Culture Wars
La Raza opposes Patriotism and American Values
Archived material is restricted to Rantburg regulars and members. If you need access email fred.pruitt=at=gmail.com with your nick to be added to the members list. There is no charge to join Rantburg as a member.
Posted by Crutch Chinter2066 2006-04-01 08:02|| || Front Page|| [11140 views since 2007-05-07]  Top

#1 If I was a Mexican - I would have crossed the border to find opportunity in the US. I applaud the get up and go of those families that do it. I respect them.

That said, groups like La Raza, have blown it. Too many immigrants crossing our boder aren't welcome guests anymore, but pests. Slam the border shut, seal it tight. Make those that are here part of a guest worker system - fingerprinted and accountable to being thrown out if they don't follow our laws. Those that want citizenship need to do more than just walk across a line to share in the bounty of America.

They think we need them, but the truth is that if they have become far more trouble than they are worth. There are millions in the world that would be willing to work hard to come here and take their place without becoming the demanding shrews that groups like La Raza have turned them into.
Posted by 2b 2006-04-01 10:42||   2006-04-01 10:42|| Front Page Top

#2 Have a Guest Worker program but...

1) Force existing Illegals to return to their counrty of origin and apply from there. And stand in the same line as everyone else.

2) Open it up to all countries (which are not openly hostile to us such as mainland China, Iran, N. Korea, etc...).

3) Do not allow them to adjust status once here.

4) Deny citizenship to infants born where unless both parents are either Citizens or legal perm. Residends.
Posted by CrazyFool 2006-04-01 10:54||   2006-04-01 10:54|| Front Page Top

#3 CrazyFool: You just cannot demand that 11 million people give up everything that many have had for decades, march across the border with their children, many of whom have never been to Mexico or even speak passable Spanish; just on the off-chance that if they apply for citizenship they might get through the line in 15 years.

That is not reasonable. They will refuse. And then what do you do? Force out 11 million people? Depopulate whole neighborhoods or even cities at gunpoint and tell them to leave their homes and most posessions behind them?

Forget it.
Posted by Anonymoose 2006-04-01 11:04||   2006-04-01 11:04|| Front Page Top

#4 details, details. Seal the border first. Then you can deal with the millions that are already here. If they leave, they can't get back. If they stay, we can, at our leisure, force them to take a path to citizenship or deportation ....whatever that path may be.
Posted by 2b 2006-04-01 11:35||   2006-04-01 11:35|| Front Page Top

#5 The name "La Raza" means "The Race". It cracks me up that people who get upset about names like "Aryan Brotherhood" or "White Man's Party" don't choke on this. Maybe it's because the perps in this case are noble, opressed brown people.
Posted by SteveS 2006-04-01 11:46||   2006-04-01 11:46|| Front Page Top

#6 Oiga a los perros! Travis Smiley is God, and Aztecs only ate white people. Viva la Raza! Chek it out, funky soul bros:
http://www.chicagodefender.com/page/local.cfm?ArticleID=4635
Posted by Listen to Dogs 2006-04-01 12:08||   2006-04-01 12:08|| Front Page Top

#7 And then what do you do? Force out 11 million people? Depopulate whole neighborhoods or even cities at gunpoint and tell them to leave their homes and most posessions behind them?

I see this argument a lot and it is one of the stupidest around.

These people are here now. What will happen to them if we don't change the law? Nobody is calling for them to be deported at gunpoint as a reuslt of depopulation of whole cities. What will happen is that employers will find it more and more onerous to hire illegals as there are more inspections of workplaces. They'll lose their jobs and come to the conclusion they are better off going back and getting in line. One at a time, the same way they came over.

And if they don't go back, they can just live out their days here without benefit of any governement programs. But I see no reason why their previous violation of the law should put them to the front of the line ahead of people who have obeyed the law. Why I should feel more sorry for Mexican lawbreakers here as opposed to the peons still there is beyond me.
Posted by Angurt Whavins9343 2006-04-01 12:19||   2006-04-01 12:19|| Front Page Top

#8 America is unique in the world in that our society is founded on a social compact, respect of and obedience to our laws, laws which treat all citizens as equal. It is corrosive enough to our national identity to have one group, the Democrats, that only obeys laws when that are convenient at the time, but to reward 11,000,000 CRIMINALS who refuse to even acknowledge the existence of our social compact could break that compact. At that point, why would the rest of us feel compelled to obey inconvenient laws? Why should only Americans/Republicans be suckers? These people know they came in violation of our laws. They knew that because they had to sneak into the country. That they are trying to brazen it out does not in any way change the fact that they are criminals and cannot be rewarded if we are to continue as a nation.

I like President Bush, but I think he and his advisors seriously underestimate the damage that will be done if our laws are continued to be ignored. Moose, maybe we can't uproot whole communities, but we can't give them all a pass. I live in San Diego and thoroughly enjoy the mix of culture out here. I respect hardworking Mexicans, but damn it, either we have the law or we don't and without the law America ceases to exist.
Posted by RWV 2006-04-01 12:36||   2006-04-01 12:36|| Front Page Top

#9 not impossible, Moose, only difficult with teh wailings and gnashing of teeth from such as you. If they have to, they will. Employer -crushing sanctions and a big fucking fence is just the start.
Posted by Frank G">Frank G  2006-04-01 13:08||   2006-04-01 13:08|| Front Page Top

#10 Any organization called "The Race" is in fact racist. Hence, it is the polar opposite of what our country stands for. We are a country of many races but only one country.
Posted by Captain America 2006-04-01 13:13||   2006-04-01 13:13|| Front Page Top

#11 Build the fence, then worry about the 11 million.
Posted by 6 2006-04-01 13:22||   2006-04-01 13:22|| Front Page Top

#12 If one more politician starts waxing nostalgic about how their grandparents immigrated to the US and how we’re a nation of immigrants I think I will spew my stomach bile. The term “immigrant” supposes legal citizenry. That is why the Dept. of Justice uses the correct and accurate term of “alien” for those that have an undefined citizenship status. How about the term “worker”? Sure you can assume most are entering the country to work. But because it is an unprovable assumption, wouldn’t it be just as accurate to use the term “non-worker”? If the term “Guest” is used, shouldn’t it be clear that it doesn’t include those that come uninvited? At some point the term “undocumented” entered the lexicon. Sounds like a paperwork SNAFU…does it not? At the very least it infers that the host country shares some of the blame for lack of documentation. And at worst it infers that everything is copasetic with the exception of that tedious paperwork process. However, one thing is crystal clear. The reason people use these ambiguous terms is to obfuscate the real issue. People can disagree on solutions but I just wish everybody would admit the issue is ILLEGAL immigration.
Posted by DepotGuy 2006-04-01 13:37||   2006-04-01 13:37|| Front Page Top

#13 Build the fence, then worry about the 11 million.
Posted by 2b 2006-04-01 13:38||   2006-04-01 13:38|| Front Page Top

#14 Build the fence and then worry about the 11 million.
Posted by Crusader 2006-04-01 13:41||   2006-04-01 13:41|| Front Page Top

#15 oops. hit enter accidently. Just agree with 6 and think it should be a bumper sticker. And well said depot guy.
Posted by 2b 2006-04-01 13:41||   2006-04-01 13:41|| Front Page Top

#16 I hear ya moose. Unfortunately we can't just grant Amnisty to 11 million illegal aliens. Been-there. Did-that. Didn't even get a damn tshirt (just millions of more illegal aliens)!

I think a compromise might be needed - perhaps defining a process for illegals who have been here (and both productive and law-abiding) for 10+ years.

In the meantime close the border and start discouraging illegal crossing (I refuse to call it 'immigration'), enforce existing laws against hiring illegals and stop giving them a free ride on our medical, educational, and social systems.
Posted by CrazyFool 2006-04-01 14:13||   2006-04-01 14:13|| Front Page Top

#17 Look, seal the border, tell Mexico that anyone we catch from anywhere not here legally will be counted as a terrorist/spy/sabetour. End remittences to Mexico any other country without proof of legal residence. Seize Mexico's assets to pay for any money that the illegals cost us.
Posted by Silentbrick">Silentbrick  2006-04-01 14:20||   2006-04-01 14:20|| Front Page Top

#18 And let's not forget to treat the next Mexican army unit that cross our border as hostile, and wipe them off the fucking map.
Posted by Robert Crawford">Robert Crawford  2006-04-01 14:30|| http://www.kloognome.com/]">[http://www.kloognome.com/]  2006-04-01 14:30|| Front Page Top

#19 First and foremost, they are UNDOCUMENTED. Make them register, voluntarily, for a biometric ID card so their place of employment, residence, and other pertinent data is on the books. After a short deadline, non-compliance is considered criminal. Toss out criminals, but most of them will go underground or return to wherever they slithered in from. Those without documentation are in breach of law and automatically deported, so they will rather comply. Second and third generation families without problems should be given special consideration, but those born here of illegal aliens should retroactively have their citizenship revoked. Requiring biometric ID to cross the border aids border security, and should also be required of Canadians (or passpsorts). Any caught without a resident alien card are banned for life for any consideration of guest worker status. The path to citizenship should require the same as an other legal immigrant that would like to become an American, learning English and being a good citizen that participates in society. How many terrorists like Hezbollah are already here? No one knows, but we'd better find out just who is here NOW.
Posted by Danielle 2006-04-01 14:56||   2006-04-01 14:56|| Front Page Top

#20 when someone sez they all cam ehere to be workers, ask about the 50% jail pop in Los Angeles that's illegals.
Posted by Frank G">Frank G  2006-04-01 16:12||   2006-04-01 16:12|| Front Page Top

#21 Frank G: The point I've been trying to make is that *if* we build the wall, and radically reduce (note: not stop, which is not cost-effective) the number of illegals coming in, then our problem is for the most part solved.

Ergo, trying to roust 11 million people is unneccesary. They are integrating into our society at a record pace. If we significantly slow down the flow, our integration efforts will be a lot more effective. They'll stop being Mexicans and become Americans.

Not only will cracking down on employers not work, which we know because we have tried this approach a bunch of times; we know that our business community is heavily invested in them. An entire county in Arkansas, singularly employees of Tyson Foods, is Mexican. Most are legal. Do any of you want to see food prices triple overnight, just for the emotional satisfaction of an anglo doing the work?

Here's a sweetener for those of you who would prefer to kick them out: Selective Service.

Say we get into hostilities with Iran, enough that we just cannot resist a draft. With military service as a "quick ticket" to citizenship, would that be satisfactory?

How about if they volunteer for military service for streamlined citizenship? Males *and* females performing priceless service to the US.
Posted by Anonymoose 2006-04-01 16:20||   2006-04-01 16:20|| Front Page Top

#22 There has NEVER been a concerted crackdown on employers, and to suggest so shows you've never studied the arrests of employers. Less than 25 convictions nationwide a year?
Posted by Frank G">Frank G  2006-04-01 16:23||   2006-04-01 16:23|| Front Page Top

#23 Moosey you're hopeless. Buy a clue.
Posted by RD 2006-04-01 16:56||   2006-04-01 16:56|| Front Page Top

#24 crazyfool, I like your statement about not allowing them to "adjust" their status.
I agree they should wait in line like everyone else. They have broken the law.
Not only should employers be fined if found to be hiring illegals, but hospitals, schools, and housing need to report all illegals as well.
For car insurance or for anything, we need to require citizenship proof to get. We have been giving them everything.
At my workplace, we have hired additional staff to help them learn how to fill out papers to get services in a round about way eluding the law against this very thing. Denver opens her arms to illegals.
Posted by Jan 2006-04-01 17:39||   2006-04-01 17:39|| Front Page Top

#25 Frank G: The problem with arresting business owners is that they have a lot of money to buy good lawyers, which will get them off with a wrist slap.

The crackdowns that have been done in past were all focused on raiding an employer, thus depriving him of his employees for several days, at least. This actually will cost them more in the long run than arresting him.

RD: Thanks for re-posting the link I posted here yesterday. Any your point about cluelessness was?

I might add that if you added up ALL of the protestors in the US, it is about 1% of all illegals in the US. That is hardly what I would call a fair sample of their opinion.

I will also criticize some of the radio and TV people for also trying to make it appear that all illegals are hardened criminals, just because a lot of criminals, where there are a lot of illegals, are filling up their local prisons.

Surprise, that too is nonsense, in that their percentage of criminals per capita is just slightly higher than it is for white people. And definitely lower than it is for black people.

To recap: build the wall, and quit screwing around with lots of misdirections and excuses why we will build the wall right *after* we do something else. Something else that never gets done. The entire issue is the wall, and those who know that the wall is critical to accomplishing anything of importance.

Everytime anyone speaks on the subject, they should be pressed,

"When is the wall being built?"

"Why are they starting to build the wall in the middle of nowhere, instead of on the main routes?"

"Why do you try to change the subject whenever the wall is mentioned?"
Posted by Anonymoose 2006-04-01 18:00||   2006-04-01 18:00|| Front Page Top

#26 hokay to your response - I agree. The wall is currently being built NOT where natural (read: dead by thirst or snakebite) obstacles occurr.
San Diego used to see hundreds of thousands crossing yearly - we see a trickle now where the fence occurrs. Arizona and TX are the new focus, and that's where we need to build it. I agree we don't need it in bumfuck egypt, desert county, but what we do need is a rapid, well-armed response when they detect crossers and drugrunners (usually protected by Mexican Authorities). Cut off, kill, or capture a few of Mexico's finest and let's start the publicization of this farce
Posted by Frank G">Frank G  2006-04-01 18:53||   2006-04-01 18:53|| Front Page Top

#27 Hey, Spartacus is on cable right now.

But it's dubbed in Spanish.
Posted by Thravins Snaving9886 2006-04-01 19:46||   2006-04-01 19:46|| Front Page Top

#28 La Raza, just like the isalmists blew it by showing their cards to early. If they actually watched their p's and q's they'd have been a majority before long and making the calls rather than freaking out the gringos enough that we'll volunteer to help build the fence.
Posted by rjschwarz">rjschwarz  2006-04-01 19:59||   2006-04-01 19:59|| Front Page Top

#29 RD: Thanks for re-posting the link I posted here yesterday. Any your point about cluelessness was?

Moosey it went over ur head twice then! :)

As of 2002: Huge increases in comunicable diseases via illegal immigration. [hospital data]

17% increase in MDR-TB Virtginia alone in Caliphornia it's higher, Chagas Disease, 7000 cases of Leprosy or Hansen's Disease, Dengue Fever Tx, Polio, Malaria, Hepatitis A, B, and C etc.

This is a small part of the Point Moose

And This

And This

And This
Posted by RD 2006-04-01 20:18||   2006-04-01 20:18|| Front Page Top

#30 A bit fuzzy on cause and effect, I see.

I do agree that resistant TB has been spreading, but its highest incidence in in New York.

Chagas Disease, Dengue Fever, and Malaria are spread by insects. You could add the Encephalitis diseases, that are also caused by the golf courses and standing water created North of the border.

Hepatitis A, B, and C etc. Only A is directly communicable, B and C are by contaminated blood.

Polio has almost been eradicated worldwide.

Leprosy is usually only spread in close quarters over an extended period of time, as is TB. TB is confusing, however, because a person will react to an initial test for exposure long before they are infected. Two different tests and two different treatments are used depending on exposure or infection.

A big reason that illegals go to expensive emergency rooms is because they can neither get Medicare, or health insurance, and they cannot belong to HMOs. The health care system is just not designed for cash payment, even assuming you can muster that much cash in a hurry.

This also precludes preventative medicine, so that by the time they arrive at the ER, their condition is appropriately "emergent", they must get care or their lives could be at risk, or they could face serious damage.

I agree that "there is no right to health care"; but I also realize that if, under normal circumstances, you could pay for your health care, with insurance or other means, and yet you are denied health care and forced to go to the emergency room, there is a fundamental flaw in the system: that being an interference in ordinary supply and demand. It really is that simple.

But once again I return to the wall. If we were to radically reduce the sheer number of people getting in, we would soon be able to manage the people who are already here. And without deporting or abusing them.

If they could or had to get health insurance, the vast majority of them would. I suspect the same percentage wouldn't as the percentage of white citizens who don't get health insurance.
Posted by Anonymoose 2006-04-01 21:19||   2006-04-01 21:19|| Front Page Top

#31 A big reason that illegals go to expensive emergency rooms is because they can neither get Medicare, or health insurance, and they cannot belong to HMOs. The health care system is just not designed for cash payment, even assuming you can muster that much cash in a hurry.

that's a LOAD OF CRAP. Illegals use Emergency Rooms as primary care because the ER's are required by law to treat them regardless of ability to pay. We, the taxpayers of SW US states actually pay for it. ThankYouFuckyouverymuch. There are cash-paying ER rooms all over, but those stand empty except for Joe Six-Pack who almost cut his thumb off mowing lawn while intoxicated. The drug-resistant TB is a border-state emergency. NY? Bah Prove it with a link.
Posted by Frank G">Frank G  2006-04-01 21:25||   2006-04-01 21:25|| Front Page Top

#32 Moose, either we are a nation of laws or we are nothing. If you think it is OK for 11,000,000 Mexicans to ignore our laws, where do you draw the line? Is it OK for me to go out and rob a bank because I'd like a little more spending money? Hey, it's just a law.... If more people like you start thinking the law is optional, then it's every man for himself.
Posted by RWV 2006-04-01 21:31||   2006-04-01 21:31|| Front Page Top

#33 This pretty much captures it. Stop asking me "English or Spanish?" at the ATM. Stop spending my tax dollars on Spanish. Stop spending money on facilities and services for illegals. Build the wall. Give the illegals a one-way turnstile back to Mexico.
Posted by Darrell 2006-04-01 21:37||   2006-04-01 21:37|| Front Page Top

#34 Illegals use Emergency Rooms as primary care because the ER's are required by law to treat them regardless of ability to pay. We, the taxpayers of SW US states actually pay for it.

When the state actually gets around to paying the hospitals. One reason why RFK in L.A. closed down.
Posted by Pappy 2006-04-01 21:51||   2006-04-01 21:51|| Front Page Top

#35 Pappy, according to the article I linked, "84 California hospitals are closing their doors as a direct result of the rising number of illegal aliens and their non-reimbursed tax on the system".
Posted by Darrell 2006-04-01 21:54||   2006-04-01 21:54|| Front Page Top

#36 Frank G: Since last time I looked, NY has fallen behind CA and TX. However, I can give you a link that shows how those dirty, filthy third world illegal Mexicans are just slightly more inclined to have TB than are African-Americans, with Asians pulling a close third.

http://www.cdc.gov/nchstp/tb/surv/surv2004/PDF/Table2.pdf

However, I still say that if illegals can pay for something, they often do. It is obvious that many newly in the US, or otherwise unintegrated, can't pay. But my contention still holds: if you took an equal number of white people and forbade them from insurance, belonging to HMOs, and Medicare, leaving them the only option of paying in cash, you would seem them flock to the ERs too. Especially if they only had minimum-wage jobs.

When typical real debt from a hospital stay starts at $10,000, there is a rapid curve in the public of those who cannot pay. Without insurance, most people would be hard pressed.
Posted by Anonymoose 2006-04-01 22:32||   2006-04-01 22:32|| Front Page Top

#37 You can pass all the laws you want.

But without the manpower, budget and control of the border (including a fence) these laws are meaningless.

Its like passing laws against speeding and never putting police on the highway to enforce them.
Posted by Oldspook 2006-04-01 22:34||   2006-04-01 22:34|| Front Page Top

#38 Moose, this doesn't have a god damned thing to do with race or national origin. These fuckers have broken our laws and must be deported. I really don't care where the fuck they come from as long as they go back. Why is it that you refuse to deal with the basic issue: THEY ARE BREAKING OUR LAWS.
Posted by RWV 2006-04-01 22:47||   2006-04-01 22:47|| Front Page Top

#39 who's forbidding them insurance? NOBODY
Posted by Frank G">Frank G  2006-04-01 22:55||   2006-04-01 22:55|| Front Page Top

#40 All of you missed Silentbrick's little gem of an idea:

End remittences to Mexico [or] any other country without proof of legal residence.

I think this would go a long way towards discouraging illegal entry. Biometric ID to prevent re-entry under false papers would nail all those illegals who attempted to carry money across the border physically.

I also have to concur with RVW and Depot Guy. This is about rule of law and that is what makes America great. Most everything else is window dressing.
Posted by Zenster 2006-04-01 23:07||   2006-04-01 23:07|| Front Page Top

23:58 Jules
23:47 AlmostAnonymous5839
23:28 Frank G
23:22 3dc
23:19 3dc
23:14 Jan
23:13 trailing wife
23:10 3dc
23:07 Zenster
22:55 Frank G
22:54 Frank G
22:47 RWV
22:41 Zenster
22:37 Oldspook
22:35 Charles
22:34 Oldspook
22:32 Anonymoose
22:31 Jan
22:27 Zenster
22:27 Skidmark
22:19 Frank G
22:18 trailing wife
22:12 Frank G
22:10 Frank G









Paypal:
Google
Search WWW Search rantburg.com