Article

2006-07-14 International-UN-NGOs

Vatican condemns both sides in Lebanon, but especially Israel

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Posted by mhw 2006-07-14 11:39|| || Front Page|| [5 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 I'm sure the Jews are crushed.

Posted by bigjim-ky 2006-07-14 11:52|| 2006-07-14 11:52|| Front Page Top

#2 "The right of defence on the part of a state does not exempt it from its responsibility to respect international law."

Sorry, but you couldn't be more wrong. The right of defense is God-given and not subject to anything other than personal responsibility. You'd think a man of God would understand that.

Posted by Crusader 2006-07-14 11:53|| 2006-07-14 11:53|| Front Page Top

#3 I think we're still a generation or two away from the time that any German can be taken seriously on the subject of Jews.

Posted by Omating Shaiger9560 2006-07-14 12:05|| 2006-07-14 12:05|| Front Page Top

#4 I'm Catholic. F**k the Vatican and all Catholics who condemn Israel's right to self defense.

Posted by MarkZ 2006-07-14 12:09|| 2006-07-14 12:09|| Front Page Top

#5 I'll have to respectfully disagree with you on that one Omating. Demographic changes in Germany of the last few decades are creating an anti-semitic climate that would be envied by Goebels, Goering, and Hitler. I suspect they're headed back to the future.

Posted by Besoeker 2006-07-14 12:16|| 2006-07-14 12:16|| Front Page Top

#6 I don't recall seeing a Paleo as one of the stations of the Cross. Maybe I just wasn't paying attention........

Posted by OyVey 1 2006-07-14 12:33|| 2006-07-14 12:33|| Front Page Top

#7 #5 - unfortunately I think you're probably right.

I'd love for all the anti-semites in the world to explain to me exactly how their lives would be better if there were no Jews anywhere.

I realize they think they'd get everything the Jews possessed (though why they'd want something touched by someone they hate so much goes unexplained), but after they squandered all the loot - and it wouldn't take clowns of that mindset long - how exactly would their lives be better?

And who would they hate then? They obviously have a desperate, visceral need to hate someone.

Posted by Barbara Skolaut">Barbara Skolaut 2006-07-14 12:35|| http://ariellestjohndesigns.com]">[http://ariellestjohndesigns.com] 2006-07-14 12:35|| Front Page Top

#8 This is one time the VAT needs to shut the hell up!!

Posted by ARMYGUY 2006-07-14 12:55|| 2006-07-14 12:55|| Front Page Top

#9 Where was the vatican's response deploring the killing and kidnapping of the 18yr old Israeli boy?

Israel - Don't listen to old men in dresses wearing funny hats.

Posted by Yosemite Sam 2006-07-14 12:59|| 2006-07-14 12:59|| Front Page Top

#10 Chill.

al-Reuters hates the Roman Catholic Church almost as much as it does Israel.

Here is the Vatican statement (and the Vatican's headline) :

HOLY SEE CONDEMNS VIOLENCE IN MIDDLE EAST

VATICAN CITY, JUL 14, 2006 (VIS) - Cardinal Secretary of State Angelo Sodano today made the following declaration on Vatican Radio:

"The news we are receiving from the Middle East is certainly worrying.

"The Holy Father Benedict XVI and all his collaborators are following with great attention the latest dramatic episodes, which risk degenerating into a conflict with international repercussions.

"As in the past, the Holy See also condemns both the terrorist attacks on the one side and the military reprisals on the other. Indeed, a State's right to self-defense does not exempt it from respecting the norms of international law, especially as regards the protection of civilian populations.

"In particular, the Holy See deplores the attack on Lebanon, a free and sovereign nation, and gives assurances of its closeness to those people who have suffered so much in the defense of their own independence.

"Once again, it appears obvious that the only path worthy of our civilization is that of sincere dialogue between the contending parties."
SS/MIDDLE EAST VIOLENCE/SODANO VIS 060714 (180)

That's it. Reuters hypes it up with it's own patented twist.

Items to note:

1) Lebanon has a large Maronite Christion minority that has suffered since the violence of the 1970s.

2) In its statement, the Holy See has NOT called for an immediate cease-fire, nor for the immediate withdrawal of Israeli forces from Lebanon.

Posted by mrp 2006-07-14 13:12|| 2006-07-14 13:12|| Front Page Top

#11 I'm VERY Catholic.

ANd Fr Sodano has his head UP HIS ASS.

TIsreal is entitled to fulll defense as a soverign nation since by all parts of international law, they were attacked in a burtal act of war, followed by shelling of civilians from a soverign state by part of its government (HEzbollah).

SO oISrael is acting within its rights and within law.

Sodano had his head up his ass,a nd the Vatican had better stop this dipshit knee-jerk Wuroweenism in terms of foregin policy.

Under they CATHOLIC theaory of Just War, Israel is OBLIGED to go after the bastards who are shelling women and children in civilian areas indiscriminately (Hezbollah), with the maximum force neccesary to keep casualites low and end the conflict quickly. That means overhwleming force apllied in an overhwleming fasion.

Fr Sodano and the other doddering Vatican state-departement idiots seem to have overlooked basic Catholic theology in favore of being screeching eurotrash.

And NO, I will not leave God's Church - I and others will clean it up from the bottom up if needs be. For one, I'd have no trouble throwing Sosano out the window of his cushy office, and putting him to work helping missionaries out in West Papua who are trying to keep Catholics there from being slaugheted by the Muslims. At gunpoint, if Fr Sodano needs that sort of persuasion.

And yes, he is a Cardinal, but a bullshit one - I use "Father" to remind him and all others that they are supposed to be Priests when you get down to the coer of it, and they are supposed to be subservient to God and protective of God's Church, not their own liberal/leftist politics and wrldy goods.

Posted by OldSpook 2006-07-14 13:16|| 2006-07-14 13:16|| Front Page Top

#12 The Israeli Govt has dropped leaflets warning innocents to Get the hell out of the way. So Israel is safeguarding civilian pop. If there is such a thing where Islamist are concerned. By my read of just war policy (public politics not withstanding). Israel is good to go!

Posted by AmeRICan 2006-07-14 13:24|| 2006-07-14 13:24|| Front Page Top

#13 No slamming meant on Catholics, but is it only me who finds this rich that it comes from a group who's admitted turning the other "eye" when Hitler gassed the Joooooooos? We're not that far from current day Hitlers wanting/doing the same thing, albeit more "efficiently" with today's weapons. Like the Hollyweird freaks, some people should just STFU and sit down. You're not helping matters.

ANd, BTW, "international law" (I assume) would say that kidnapping soldiers (much less attacking them cross-border or kidnapping civilians) is LEGALLY an act of war. Israel is fully within it's rights to respond in kind.

Posted by BA 2006-07-14 13:26|| 2006-07-14 13:26|| Front Page Top

#14 The Holy Father Benedict XVI ~~a former member of the Hitler Youth~~ condemns Israel for ~~defending itself~~ an attack on a sovereign and free nation (he means Lebanon).

Posted by gromgoru 2006-07-14 13:27|| 2006-07-14 13:27|| Front Page Top

#15 Right on O.S. I too share your take on the leftist in collars. The gates of the nether world will not prevail against her.

Posted by AmeRICan 2006-07-14 13:29|| 2006-07-14 13:29|| Front Page Top

#16 No slamming meant on Catholics, but is it only me who finds this rich that it comes from a group who's admitted turning the other "eye" when Hitler gassed the Joooooooos?

Not even remotely true.

Posted by mrp 2006-07-14 13:38|| 2006-07-14 13:38|| Front Page Top

#17 i'm a Catholic & this reminds me right before OIF started the priest at my church says in his sermon that is wrong to go into Iraq, blah, blah, blah. I got up in the middle of church and walked down the aisle and left. You should have seen the looks I got, but I just couldn't sit there and listen to that leftist crap. IMHO, God would smile upon Saddam's demise and he would thank the US for doing it. The old testament is full of war. Why doesn ever time anyone goes to war, the church gets their panties in a wad? No matter what the cause...

another slant to this is that the Islamists would LOVE to destroy the Vatican too. Will the Swiss Guards defned the Pope with their lances? Maybe one day when the Vatican gets shelled it will wake up.

Posted by NOLA "Victim" 2006-07-14 13:40|| 2006-07-14 13:40|| Front Page Top

#18 I'm catholic to, and I find this condemnation of ISrael a bit rich. The only explanation I can find is they are concerned about the threat of reprisals against the Maronite community.

On the turning the other eye: Not true. The Catholics were the only major Christian denomination that helped the Jews, and got on the Nazi fun list for their pains. Goebbels makes it clear the catholics were next after the Jews and Gypsies. The only thing that saved us was that the Jews were a "work in progress" when the war ended.

Al

Posted by Frozen Al">Frozen Al 2006-07-14 14:11|| 2006-07-14 14:11|| Front Page Top

#19 I stand corrected and do apologize then, my fellow brothers. No harm meant, but good grief how far does the liberalism creep into the Church? I mean, first the Priest "abuse" cases, then we find out the homos had infiltrated, and now views on war like this.

Again, like our national "leadership," I recognize the need to separate the laity (ground troops) in the church from the "enlightened" ones in charge. I just gotta wonder what J.C. Himself would think of these statements, especially in light of literally hundreds of rockets being launched against N. Israel.

Posted by BA 2006-07-14 14:17|| 2006-07-14 14:17|| Front Page Top

#20 This Pope should just stick to normal Pope duties like protecting child molesters, and waving to the camera.

Posted by Destro in Indiana 2006-07-14 14:22|| 2006-07-14 14:22|| Front Page Top

#21 The Vatican can suck my balls.

Posted by Iblis">Iblis 2006-07-14 14:24|| 2006-07-14 14:24|| Front Page Top

#22 I might disagree with this statement but I expected them to make a comment on that. However, some of the comments here are way over the top.

Posted by ponderingamerican 2006-07-14 14:37|| www.theponderingamerican.blogspot.com]">[www.theponderingamerican.blogspot.com] 2006-07-14 14:37|| Front Page Top

#23 I don't have much use for the Vatican getting involved in geo-politics either. I'm not sure if the Vat *gets* how truly evil the islamoloonies are. I'd appreciate if the Vat stuck w/Sympathizing & helping the innocent of any faith as they can but please stay out of the pollyanna-ish quote business when dealing w/islamonutz and their proxies - they just make themselves look silly.

Posted by Broadhead6 2006-07-14 14:47|| 2006-07-14 14:47|| Front Page Top

#24 Classical "not wanting to offend anyone" statement. Well this fight is good vs evil. Maybe the best thing for the Vatican to do is to STFU, sorry to be crude. Hizb'Allah would take the Vatican out in a heartbeat if it furthered their cause. Isreal would not.

Posted by Alaska Paul">Alaska Paul 2006-07-14 14:48|| 2006-07-14 14:48|| Front Page Top

#25 The queer thing is that this pope does understand. He was recently quoted as saying that Islam as it currently exists is incapable of living in peace with the rest of the world, without attempting to conquer it. This kind of statement, though, is pouring oil on a troubled bonfire.

Posted by trailing wife 2006-07-14 15:09|| 2006-07-14 15:09|| Front Page Top

#26 Oh, and the Catholic Church being made up of humans, there were those who acted to protect Jews and those who acted to betray them... and those who only protected Jews who agreed to be baptized. Some were martyred in the concentration camps for it. After the war, the same array of options with regard to Nazis and related miscreants.

Posted by trailing wife 2006-07-14 15:19|| 2006-07-14 15:19|| Front Page Top

#27 Under they CATHOLIC theaory of Just War, Israel is OBLIGED to go after the bastards who are shelling women and children in civilian areas indiscriminately (Hezbollah), with the maximum force neccesary to keep casualites low and end the conflict quickly. That means overhwleming force apllied in an overhwleming fasion.

Fr Sodano and the other doddering Vatican state-departement idiots seem to have overlooked basic Catholic theology in favore of being screeching eurotrash.

And your source for that is? Catholic theory of just war? Where did you get this from?

I see a lot of pick-n-choose catholics here.

Posted by 2Ducks 2006-07-14 15:20|| 2006-07-14 15:20|| Front Page Top

#28 I believe the theory of "just war" is a Catholic doctrine that basically states You can smack them if they smack you first. Probably wouldn't (officially) agree with "first strike" theories, but do note again....."International Law" considers kidnapping of State soldiers an official act of war, and, thus, Israel is fully "legal" in calling for war back at 'em. Finally, I'm not Catholic (actually, Protestant), but I'd imagine that the Catholics around these parts are a lot more "individualistic" and don't necessarily see everything the Holy Father does as "gospel truth". I'd also add, they're probably a lot more devout than your average Catholic and with a sense of reality, to boot. The enemy is at the gates, and Israel is surrounded by enemies, so they have every right to respond the way they did, in my book.

Posted by BA 2006-07-14 15:27|| 2006-07-14 15:27|| Front Page Top

#29 I really would not call the Vatican leftist. Also for it being involved in a feo politics in my view it is a must. I find it is not ocvered here as much as I would like but the new developing policy toward ISlam and particually radical ISlam by this Pope is something to watch. THe upcoming trip to Turkey could result in something huge as the Pope is trying to get the orthodox Christians to join in a common front.

Also go read the whole statement. I am sure what the Vatican is doing is trying to ratchet this down a tad. Plus does anyone disagree with this

" State's right to self-defense does not exempt it from respecting the norms of international law, especially as regards the protection of civilian populations"

I am focusing on the civilian population part here. I think we can all agree on that. That is our philosophy, I think. Of course these terrorist are in Cilvian areas which makes it worse.

Again, I support Israel and what it is doing but I do not want to see Beirut turned into what it was in 82 and 83. Does that make me a Leftist. People need to go listen to the Lebaonese bloggers. Right now many are wondering why they are bearing the brunt of this and Syria is not which is the true enemy of both to Israel and Lebanon.

Furthermore I shouldn't have to say this but when the Pope speaks like this he is not infalliable as we Catholics call it. However he should be speaking out. I suspect the Vatican Diplomacy is a tad more complex than this article is stating.

Posted by ponderingamerican 2006-07-14 15:58|| www.theponderingamerican.blogspot.com]">[www.theponderingamerican.blogspot.com] 2006-07-14 15:58|| Front Page Top

#30 The best 21st century commentary on Thomistic "Just War" theory was made by Catholic theologian Michael Novak in the weeks prior to OIF (2003).

Mr. Novak states his position in his National Review commentary Asymmetrical Warfare & Just War". For what it's worth, I agree with his 2003 assessment, and with Israel's decision to attack Hezbullah's positions in Lebanon.

Posted by mrp 2006-07-14 16:01|| 2006-07-14 16:01|| Front Page Top

#31 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomist_philosophy

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Aquinas

Posted by anonymous5089 2006-07-14 16:02|| 2006-07-14 16:02|| Front Page Top

#32 I blame Bill Gates. He is an easy target and not here to defend himself. Much like the Jews in Rome.

Posted by DarthVader 2006-07-14 16:08|| 2006-07-14 16:08|| Front Page Top

#33 With a family surname and history as keepers of Thor's HOLY GROVE I would have to say THOR would support the Israeli's right to provide thunderbolts from the sky against their enemies but must admit to some trouble with this unitary god thingy as THOR has family.
Aesir sense Fimbular approachings come winter.
We need to watch the MitGard Serpent and Fenris.

Posted by 3dc 2006-07-14 16:16|| 2006-07-14 16:16|| Front Page Top

#34 Lebanon is bearing the brunt of this because the kidnappers and the rockets/missiles (the count now at somewhere around 700 shot at Israel since kidnapping, 200,000 Israelis in bomb shelters) are actions of the terror organization Hizb'Allah, actions taken from Lebanese soil. Remember also, that while the rest of the Lebanese may not like them, Hizb'Allah is the single largest party elected to the Lebanese parliament. Unfortunately, being a nation means living with the results of actions taken by your citizens -- either by disowning and punishing them (which Lebanon has not done) or by accepting whatever results. Agreed that Lebanon has only recently escaped Syrian hegemony, and her freedom may not last long; nevertheless, the reality is that war has been declared on Israel by an armed and organized group of Lebanese citizens sanctioned by a portion of the legitimate government, and the rest of the country have fluttered their hands ineffectually while doing nothing to assure Israel that they will take action to remove the threat.

Posted by trailing wife 2006-07-14 16:36|| 2006-07-14 16:36|| Front Page Top

#35 Plus does anyone disagree with this

" State's right to self-defense does not exempt it from respecting the norms of international law, especially as regards the protection of civilian populations"

I disagree with the unspoken assumption, which is that asymmetrical war against terror groups that embed themselves within civilian populations can be covered by blanket statements of this kind.

Posted by disagreeing indeed 2006-07-14 16:52|| 2006-07-14 16:52|| Front Page Top

#36 I suspect that about as many people in the Vatican understand asymetrical warfare (with its goal being to tire or weaken its enemy through a war of exhaustion) as folks in Congress and the MSM do -- not many. People work off of the templates that they build throughout life. Few have the flexibility to change those templates quickly.

We all knew that something was radically wrong after 9/11. Look how long it has taken us to learn the vocabulary, the schemas, the structure, etc. of the new reality. Which once again points out that if we lose this war, it will because we lost the informational battle.

Posted by 11A5S 2006-07-14 17:41|| 2006-07-14 17:41|| Front Page Top

#37 Aesir sense Fimbular approachings come winter.
We need to watch the MitGard Serpent and Fenris.

So, do you think Ragnarok is nigh?

Posted by Xbalanke 2006-07-14 18:11|| 2006-07-14 18:11|| Front Page Top

#38 In all due defense of my Church, keep in mind that there are about a billion members of it. It would truly be one of God's miracles if there wasn't a gang of idiots in your average congregation, much less at the top (sorry to say). There will be, on occasion, an amazingly dumb remark made now and then.

However, consider the source (Reuters) and consider the actual statement made by Cardinal Sodano. Reuters turned it from a statement of concern about the innocent people caught in the crossfire to an anti-Israel rant. This isn't the first time that they have done something like this, and it surely won't be the last.

Whenever Reuters says anything about what my Church leaders have said, they have rarely, if ever, reported it accurately. Before you get agitated about what Reuters says (well, about virtually anyone, for that matter), check on the internet to see if you can find the actual statement. I swear those bastards take pride in misreporting the truth.

Posted by Swamp Blondie 2006-07-14 18:53|| http://azjetsetchick.blogspot.com]">[http://azjetsetchick.blogspot.com] 2006-07-14 18:53|| Front Page Top

#39 The current Secretary of State, Cardinal Sodano, is on the way out. His successor, Cardinal Bertone, was appointed last week and he is a protege of Pope Benedict XVI. Sodano is said to have strongly opposed Ratzinger's election to the papacy.

Posted by mrp 2006-07-14 18:59|| 2006-07-14 18:59|| Front Page Top

#40 "I stand corrected and do apologize then, my fellow brothers. No harm meant, but good grief how far does the liberalism creep into the Church?"

Think for a sec on how many cardinals there are in the Vatican and how many are from Europe in particular, then count how many archbishops are from Europe, then go on down the list. You'll see theres a heavy dominance of a leftist ideology at the upper ranks vs the lay clergy.

Posted by Valentine 2006-07-14 20:18|| 2006-07-14 20:18|| Front Page Top

#41 Catholic here - the Cardinal should STFU.

Posted by Frank G">Frank G 2006-07-14 21:30|| 2006-07-14 21:30|| Front Page Top

#42 I'm with OldSpook.

Posted by JerseyMike 2006-07-14 22:36|| 2006-07-14 22:36|| Front Page Top

#43 I think my fellow Catholics should exercise a tiny amount of humility when it comes to matters of faith and the Pope's statements. Pope Benedict has spent his entire life in the business, so to speak, and I for one will give him the benefit of the doubt (when he's not speaking ex cathedra). He is by no means a liberal, having rejected liberalism a long time ago, much to the chagrin of the many liberals in the Church. Are people here seriously claiming that they are better than the Pope? I hope not.

Posted by 2Ducks 2006-07-14 23:28|| 2006-07-14 23:28|| Front Page Top

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