Article

2007-05-18 Israel-Palestine-Jordan

Arabs in dispair over Palestinian street fighting

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Posted by Steve White 2007-05-18 00:00|| || Front Page|| [3 views ] Top

#1 Guess think, last week it was "take it or leave it" on the Arab Piece Plan.

Posted by Captain America 2007-05-18 00:33|| 2007-05-18 00:33|| Front Page Top

#2 Good! The deserve despair!

Posted by 3dc 2007-05-18 00:37|| 2007-05-18 00:37|| Front Page Top

#3 Frankly my dear Arabs, I don't give a damn.

Posted by Sneaze 2007-05-18 00:37|| 2007-05-18 00:37|| Front Page Top

#4 Article: Some blamed the Palestinian factions for a futile fight over power. America, Israel and the whole West want to see us divided, said 47-year-old Kamal Abu-Zeid, wearing thick eyeglasses, and selling newspapers in front of Cairo University.

What planet are these guys on? Throughout the vast majority of history, unity is achieved not by consensus, but by one group imposing its will on another by force. This means dead bodies. Lot of them. Lemme tell ya - none of the Muslim empires was "united" by consensus. Neither were France, Britain or Germany. It took a lot of killing before the victorious faction eliminated all other challengers. Only after unification through war can the state grow strong.

Posted by Zhang Fei 2007-05-18 02:14|| http://timurileng.blogspot.com]">[http://timurileng.blogspot.com] 2007-05-18 02:14|| Front Page Top

#5 Love the popcorn graphic. Says it all.

OK, I'll add some.

Couldn't happen to a nicer bunch of folks (I mean the festivities in Gaza, and the "anguish" of the Arab world over same).

Posted by Verlaine 2007-05-18 02:20|| 2007-05-18 02:20|| Front Page Top

#6 Arabs in DESPAIR while Paleos are DISPAIRING themselves => hamas/fatah dispairation along the lines of more holy/more infidel. 'S time IJ joined the fray, damn!

Actually, I don't think the despair is really so much there--rather out there in your face, Arabs pretending that they care deeply about Paleos and Gazans in particular.

Posted by twobyfour 2007-05-18 02:28|| 2007-05-18 02:28|| Front Page Top

#7 So, "Palestinian blood is sacred", eh King Abdullah II? Might want to break that news to the ghost of your father, who ordered in the Jordanian Army on the Paleos back in 1970 - the operation known by the Paleos as Black September. At least 20,000 Paleos died during that fight for the state of Jordan, maybe more since there was that one bulldozed refugee camp that no one got to look at for a few years.
When the Paleos get out of line, the Arabs are not slow in killing them : whether Jordanian, Egyptian, Syrian, or the like. The Arabs are just pissed that Paleos are killing each other, instead of murdering Jewish kindergardeners.

Posted by Shieldwolf 2007-05-18 04:49|| 2007-05-18 04:49|| Front Page Top

#8 When the Pallies hit bottom, and a Michael Collins figure springs up to enforce the peace, maybe a real country less dysfunctional than the rest of the Mid East can spring up from the ruins of Gaza and the West Bank.

Posted by Zhang Fei 2007-05-18 04:50|| http://timurileng.blogspot.com]">[http://timurileng.blogspot.com] 2007-05-18 04:50|| Front Page Top

#9 I guess they'll have to go to the UN, the supreme, enlightened, power-broker to the world. Of course they'll have to get in line, but by the year 2036 there should be a resolution or something passed to take care of this.

Posted by bigjim-ky 2007-05-18 07:53|| 2007-05-18 07:53|| Front Page Top

#10 "press Hamas to stop rocket attacks on Israel that threaten to widen the conflict.
Press Hamas .. how? "

By killing them, obviously. The story per Amos Harel of Haaretz, who I suspect has some very good sources, is that Fatah was getting lots in the way of arms and training from these very same arabs (Well from Egypt and Jordan, if not from KSA) and was preparing a move. Hamas struck preemptively, while Dahlan is hors de combat due to illness, and they are going for broke now, seeing this as their one best chance to break Fatah.

The implication for his story is this i think. The Egyptians and Jordanians (and maybe event the Saudis?) are now ready to break Hamas, and finally see the necessity for it. The rhetoric about sacred blood and all is the preparation to justify their openly supporting Fatah ("well yeah, we beleive in unity, and we would NEVER arm one faction against another, but ya know, Pal blood is sacred, we cant let the Hamasniks keep spilling it")

Posted by liberalhawk 2007-05-18 09:40|| 2007-05-18 09:40|| Front Page Top

#11 "Michael Collins "

Mebbe Mo Dahlan is that figure. Mebbe.

Posted by liberalhawk 2007-05-18 09:41|| 2007-05-18 09:41|| Front Page Top

#12 I think you are right, LH. Things are about to get really, really messy.

Posted by DarthVader">DarthVader 2007-05-18 09:42|| 2007-05-18 09:42|| Front Page Top

#13 Jpost column:

"But at the same time, said Gidi Grinstein, head of the Tel Aviv-based Reut think tank, certain factions inside Palestinian society were not interested in the two-state solution. They were, he said Thursday, interested in drawing Israel back into Gaza, perpetuating Israeli occupation, believing that this would lead to Israel's collapse from within.

In a paper Reut published last November, Grinstein wrote that the aim of this strategy "is to establish one Palestinian/Arab/Islamic state in place of Israel through actions that will bring about Israel's internal collapse as a state."

According to this strategy, "the occupation accelerates Israel's implosion and therefore should be sustained. Either way, the Hamas government in and of itself serves the 'Strategy of Implosion' because it creates a political deadlock, deepens the Palestinian crisis of representation, and erodes the PA's capacity to govern."

Grinstein, who was an adviser to Ehud Barak when Barak served as prime minister, said that the collapse of the PA - a situation of "non-governance there" - was bad for Israel. "We will have no one to talk to, and too many people to shoot at," he said.

"There are groups, Palestinian and Muslim Arabs, who are beginning to question whether their immediate goal should really be to try to push Israel out of the West Bank, and who are saying that the continuation of the occupation may accelerate Israel's implosion," he said.

Grinstein noted that over the last year, there has not been any significant pressure on Israel from the PA, or from the Arab world, to get out of the West Bank.

"We got used to an environment where there were powerful forces pushing us out of the West Bank," he said, saying that these voices have been silent for the last year.

Because of some of the Palestinian factions' desire that Israel remain an occupying force, the threat of the IDF moving back into Gaza is a hollow one. That's what they want, Grinstein said.

To support this argument, Grinstein quoted Damascus-based Hamas head Khaled Mashaal, who said in March 2006 that Hamas has always seen the establishment of the PA "as a mistake."

He said that Hamas would not "hesitate to declare the dissolution of the PA and the return back to square one: that of being under occupation."

The philosophy that Israel can be defeated easier from within than in a military attack from outside is also shared by Hizbullah's Hassan Nasrallah and Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad.

Grinstein said he doubted whether the current chaos was premeditated by Hamas to provoke an Israeli response that would draw it back into Gaza, but that local events - such as clan feuds over weapons and drug smuggling - have a dangerous momentum of their own, and that other issues can piggyback on them.
"

Posted by liberalhawk 2007-05-18 10:15|| 2007-05-18 10:15|| Front Page Top

#14 Viewers in the Arab world - long loyal advocates of the Palestinian cause - were stunned.

Stunned, I tells ya! Stunned!!

Posted by tu3031 2007-05-18 10:17|| 2007-05-18 10:17|| Front Page Top

#15 Shocked to their foundations, they were.

Posted by Seafarious">Seafarious 2007-05-18 11:02|| 2007-05-18 11:02|| Front Page Top

#16 LiberalHawk: interesting analysis.

I would point out that just because certain factions want Gaza to be re-occupied is no reason for the Israelis to grant them their wish. Indeed, if I were the Israeli president (not happening), I'd be very diabolical about this: I'd wait til the Paleos were close to rock-bottom, and then I'd declare Gaza to be independent.

Now, the world wouldn't honor that, of course, but the simple declarations would make it clear that Israel wants nothing to do with Gaza, and (therefore) everything that happens in Gaza after that is on the Paleos. That would twist some knickers.

In no way shape or form should Israel play along with Hamas.

Posted by Steve White">Steve White 2007-05-18 11:06|| 2007-05-18 11:06|| Front Page Top

#17 Paleo's celebrate Muzzi Gras in May. What lies ahead on Fat Tuesday?

Posted by GolfBravoUSMC 2007-05-18 11:10|| 2007-05-18 11:10|| Front Page Top

#18 Could this "Arab despair" be a front of the War with Iran, since we know, Hamas is backed by Iran? Of course, I prolly missed it, but I don't remember reading of this much "intervention, concern and despair" by Arabs in this continuing saga. Kinda feels like some more "strong" words from the Arabs since Iran has now declared itself the dominate force in the region. Arabs stepping in to keep Iran from total control over the Palestinians.

Posted by Sherry">Sherry 2007-05-18 12:13|| 2007-05-18 12:13|| Front Page Top

#19 Turn off the water and the despair will end after 1 week. End! Period! As in pining for fjords.

Posted by 3dc 2007-05-18 13:37|| 2007-05-18 13:37|| Front Page Top

#20 They are fighting over an illusory power, a rotten corpse.

Guess who propped up that "rotten corpse" for so many decades? Not Israel.

Palestinian blood is sacred.

But only after it's smeared all around the inside of an Israeli pizza parlor.

stations showed constant images from Gaza, which looked like a war zone

And that marks a change exactly how?

May God curse you all, renowned Egyptian columnist Ahmed Ragab wrote, referring to the Palestinian factions.

Inshallah, baby.

From post #13: a situation of "non-governance there" - was bad for Israel. "We will have no one to talk to, and too many people to shoot at

Grinstein says that like its a bad thing.

Posted by Zenster">Zenster 2007-05-18 15:42|| 2007-05-18 15:42|| Front Page Top

#21 Ima wringin my hands too.

Posted by JohnQC 2007-05-18 16:29|| 2007-05-18 16:29|| Front Page Top

#22 "LiberalHawk: interesting analysis.

I would point out that just because certain factions want Gaza to be re-occupied is no reason for the Israelis to grant them their wish."

Oh, I agree. Very strongly. Bibi is making noises about reoccupation. That could be cause he knows olmert wont do it, and is just scoring points while the qassams fall, or it could be he thinks Fatah is gonna win (dark as it looks for Fatah in Gaza now) and does NOT want that, as it would almost certainly force Israel to negotiate, and make a deal along Sharon-Olmert lines or face American wrath. Such a situation could break the Israeli right, which otherwise is in a pretty good position. Im NOT accusing Bibi of putting partisan interest over state interests - he may genuinely feel that a deal would be a profound mistake.

Note that the issue of "deterrent power" is in the air, post Lebanon. If the Qassams start hitting, that becomes more than rhetorical. And perhaps theres not a lot of willingness to trust to airpower alone, again post Lebanon.

" Indeed, if I were the Israeli president (not happening),"

Quick reminder, you mean PM, Israel is parliamentary, the Presidency of Israel is largely ceremonial, like the Presidency of Germany more than that of the US or France.

"I'd be very diabolical about this: I'd wait til the Paleos were close to rock-bottom, and then I'd declare Gaza to be independent."

Folks here are assuming theres a fixed number of fighters in Gaza, you just wait while they attrit each other, then there are none. I really dont think thats gonna be the dynamic here, I think someone is gonna start winning, and I dont think outsiders can control that. Maybe if Fatah were to feed fighters from the WB into a Hamas dominated battlefield, you could get something like WW1. I dont think Fatah will do that, though, not only cause theyre smarter than that, but cause of their own internal politics. Gaza is Dahlans turf, for Fatah. there are Fatah leaders in the WB who dont much like him. I think hes got a certain amount of rope, a certain amount of resources to beat Hamas. At some point, if the dudes in the WB decide Dahlan has failed, hes failed, and Fatah makes a strategic withdrawl to the West Bank.

"Now, the world wouldn't honor that, of course, but the simple declarations would make it clear that Israel wants nothing to do with Gaza, and (therefore) everything that happens in Gaza after that is on the Paleos. That would twist some knickers."

1. As long as they are still in the West Bank, its a pretty empty gesture, and I dont think it buys them that much in world opinion (maybe not zero, but not much
2. that has to be weighed against the disadvantage of giving up control over the sea lanes to Gaza, the airspace, any say in how the Rafah crossing to Egypt is managed, and whatever other residual rights they retain (I think thats about it) For them to try to retain control over the air space or sea lanes by force, having just said "gaza is independent" would leave them I think, looking worse than now.

"In no way shape or form should Israel play along with Hamas."

Yeah, I agree, but Im not trying to figure out whether or not to evacuate Sderot.

Posted by liberalhawk 2007-05-18 16:56|| 2007-05-18 16:56|| Front Page Top

#23 Sderot's a simply solved problem. Station some serious artillery units close by for immediate counterbattery fire. Fire retaliatory rounds into the area launched from as soon as the launch is detected by radar. All of this was done during the Leb war. When Paleo civvies get killed in the retaliation, as they will, tell world opinion to get stuffed, and remind them that the Paleos have clearly demonstrated they don't give a damn about their own people, which is why the Paleo gunnies are firing from populated areas. Israel will just be utilizing its right to self-defense under international law and they should spin it exactly that way. Of course, we're talking as if any of the "world opinion" media scumbags actually cared about the right or wrong of any issue. Their attitude comes cut, dried and shrink-wrapped, and we know it before they even say it. If Israel does anything short of committing national suicide, they're wrong.

Posted by Mac 2007-05-18 20:48|| 2007-05-18 20:48|| Front Page Top

#24 LH article: "But at the same time, said Gidi Grinstein, head of the Tel Aviv-based Reut think tank, certain factions inside Palestinian society were not interested in the two-state solution. They were, he said Thursday, interested in drawing Israel back into Gaza, perpetuating Israeli occupation, believing that this would lead to Israel's collapse from within.

In a paper Reut published last November, Grinstein wrote that the aim of this strategy "is to establish one Palestinian/Arab/Islamic state in place of Israel through actions that will bring about Israel's internal collapse as a state."

According to this strategy, "the occupation accelerates Israel's implosion and therefore should be sustained. Either way, the Hamas government in and of itself serves the 'Strategy of Implosion' because it creates a political deadlock, deepens the Palestinian crisis of representation, and erodes the PA's capacity to govern."

Just because the Pallies believe something doesn't mean it's true. In fact, if I had a dollar for every erroneous belief they held, I'd be a rich man. Al Qaeda thought 9/11 would cause the collapse of the American economy, a US disengagement from the Mid East, and at minimum, the collapse of the Muslim governments that it believed were kept standing only with Uncle Sam's help. It may be also be Hamas employing reverse psychology to avoid being crushed by Israel and sent into exile. Note that the days of full-scale Israeli occupation were times of peace and prosperity for the Palestinians - they were also times of zero suicide bombings for Israelis.

LH article: Grinstein, who was an adviser to Ehud Barak when Barak served as prime minister, said that the collapse of the PA - a situation of "non-governance there" - was bad for Israel. "We will have no one to talk to, and too many people to shoot at," he said.

I think the Labor Party just wants not to be hated by the Europeans. Israel did just fine when it occupied the West Bank and Gaza.

Posted by Zhang Fei 2007-05-18 21:12|| http://timurileng.blogspot.com]">[http://timurileng.blogspot.com] 2007-05-18 21:12|| Front Page Top

23:47 Stop the madness
23:37 DMFD
23:23 JosephMendiola
23:15 Mike N.
23:15 JosephMendiola
23:13 USN, ret.
23:02 Zenster
23:01 Natural Law
22:58 Seafarious
22:55 Zenster
22:54 DMFD
22:54 Phineter Thraviger
22:52 Mike N.
22:50 Zenster
22:49 gromgoru
22:42 Mike N.
22:31 JosephMendiola
22:29 Lampedusa Glaimble2526
22:22 JosephMendiola
22:17 JosephMendiola
22:11 JosephMendiola
22:08 JosephMendiola
21:58 trailing wife
21:56 JosephMendiola