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2007-07-27 Home Front: WoT

Latest desperate moonbat "Theory" about Tillman's death

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Posted by gorb 2007-07-27 14:43|| || Front Page|| [11131 views ] Top

#1 Got a link for this?

Posted by Jonathan">Jonathan 2007-07-27 16:18|| 2007-07-27 16:18|| Front Page Top

#2 The original story 'made sense' - gung-ho but inexperienced soldier got himself killed in friendly fire incident, then superiors spin it to minimize 'damage' from losing such a popular and heroic figure in such a manner (with initially desirable side-effect of giving the family members a measure of 'meaning' to their loss.) It didn't work, since that template had enemies in the system.

THIS angle is really different, if true. And if it is true, there are lots of significant people who know it, and did from very early on. The 'spin' then makes no sense, at least on the surface. The 'orders/anti-war' hypothesis is NOT the answer - of that I am positive.

Posted by Glenmore">Glenmore 2007-07-27 16:42|| 2007-07-27 16:42|| Front Page Top

#3 Sorry. Here's the link.

Posted by gorb 2007-07-27 16:54|| 2007-07-27 16:54|| Front Page Top

#4 If the three forehead shots from 30 feet is true, then I suspect that it was indeed a cluster from beginning to end. I can easily suggest what happened:

1) That Tillman was an obnoxious, John Wayne, who habitually and recklessly endangered his fellow Rangers, browbeating them like they were on a football team. My suspicions were raised because the "Great guy, everybody liked him" quote came up just a little too often. The Chaplain information that he was berating a comrade on the ground next to him, while standing, would seem to fit this pattern. This is the critical item.

2) A three shot head grouping would almost have to be on full auto. From a prone position. And with enough aiming time to identify the target. It would also imply that the target was standing still. If murder, then it was calculated.

3) No evidence of enemy fire found, as in no other wounded, no bullet holes on vehicles or equipment, no shell casings. This one is less certain, because the enemy is an awful shot.

4) Tillman was a celebrity, and his chain of command would be likely to want "heroic dead" rather than "frag", which would not look good so early in the war. And cover-ups often make a bad situation worse. On top of everything else, awarding Tillman a Silver Star for getting shot shows his chain of command had problems.

Posted by Anonymoose 2007-07-27 17:16|| 2007-07-27 17:16|| Front Page Top

#5 nice hatchet job, Moose. Guess you never made the football team, huh? Been holding that in all this time?

Posted by Frank G">Frank G 2007-07-27 17:53|| 2007-07-27 17:53|| Front Page Top

#6 Hmm. Maybe. I forgot about the three-shot auto setting on the weapons. I was thinking three individual shots.

Do orders to frag a guy ever come from high-up? Seems so ludicrous that I never really considered it, but I don't know. That is what this article is claiming. I can imagine a cover-up coming from high up, but not orders to frag.

Posted by gorb 2007-07-27 17:54|| 2007-07-27 17:54|| Front Page Top

#7 I see ex-Pravda writers have finally found employment. I was so hoping they could revive the Weekly World News.

Posted by ed 2007-07-27 18:21|| 2007-07-27 18:21|| Front Page Top

#8 Frank G: There's just too many things that don't make sense here. I didn't even know that the Rangers *had* Sp4s. That at least used to mean that you were not on the command track enough to even be made a Corporal, in the Infantry. Other branches had plenty of Sp4s, but not Infanty. Private or Corporal.

http://tinyurl.com/2rdk8w

The two accounts of Tillman's demise both had him screaming:

"Spc. Bryan O'Neal, who was at Tillman's side as he was killed, told investigators that Tillman was waving his arms shouting "Cease fire, friendlies, I am Pat (expletive) Tillman, damn it!" again and again..."

"The chaplain said O'Neal told him he was hugging the ground at Tillman's side, "crying out to God, 'Help us.' And Tillman says to him, 'Would you shut your (expletive) mouth? God's not going to help you; you need to do something for yourself, you sniveling...'"

Okay, in the former case, friendlies are already firing, but in the latter case, that may or may not be the case. But O'Neal is on the ground, and apparently scared, probably for a reason.

Again, during this, how does somebody get a 3-shot grouping on Tillman's forehead? That is a very hard shot from 30 feet. Tillman had to be still, looking near or at whoever is shooting him.

The first case seems plausible, that Tillman was standing still, at most waving his arms, while facing the shooter. Importantly, if the *second* case is true, it is most likely that Tillman was looking *down* at O'Neal, so his forehead would not be exposed.

But then, at some point, he would have to stop looking at O'Neal and turn to face the shooter--while still chewing out O'Neal.

This means that in either case, Tillman is giving the shooter a target for a while, long enough for the shooter to aim and keep his group tight. And unless there was a LOT of firing, to be able to hear Tillman.

Notice in the article how twice they mention that the investigators were asking how well liked Tillman was in his unit. This says to me that they suspected he might have been fragged. But nobody in his unit is going to be to thrilled about saying that.

Back to football for a second, Tillman's career as an OLB was noteworthy for his aggressive tackles and brute force plays. And while this is no evidence that he took his football attitude with him into the Rangers, it is hardly a leap of faith to suspect that like so many others in football, he took his aggression with him off the field.

You may take it as a hatchet job. But there are just too many coincidences for me to think that besides being friendly fire, it wasn't aimed fire. And if that's the case, then there was probably a pretty good reason it was aimed.

Put the pieces together.

Posted by Anonymoose 2007-07-27 19:32|| 2007-07-27 19:32|| Front Page Top

#9 Back to football for a second, Tillman's career as an OLB was noteworthy for his aggressive tackles and brute force plays. And while this is no evidence that he took his football attitude with him into the Rangers, it is hardly a leap of faith to suspect that like so many others in football, he took his aggression with him off the field

Uh huh. Safety in the NFL, not OLB, cuz he was too small. Anything else exaggerated?

Posted by Frank G">Frank G 2007-07-27 19:43|| 2007-07-27 19:43|| Front Page Top

#10 Sorry, Moose. I don't buy innuendo or projection. Tillman quit the NFL to serve. You can dwell in the cellar with those who want to denigrate him or what tragically happened. I won't.

Posted by Frank G">Frank G 2007-07-27 19:55|| 2007-07-27 19:55|| Front Page Top

#11 As someone who attended Tillman's public service in San Jose's Rose Garden and personally led three cheers for his family, I'm going with "FUCK THESE LAME ASSHOLES AND THE CAMEL THEY RODE IN ON" portion of this theory.

Posted by Zenster">Zenster 2007-07-27 20:30|| 2007-07-27 20:30|| Front Page Top

#12 http://tinyurl.com/2yy86k

OLB at ASU, where he had a lot more play than in the NFL.

And as far as denigration goes, how about awarding a Silver Star to a soldier who just got shot? Especially if you suspect that he was fragged by his peers.

That really sets a great example to those soldiers who have earned a Silver, or even a Bronze Star.

I can hold Tillman in high regard for leaving his career behind to join the Army. That career being the NFL means nothing beyond that, except that it might go to motive of why he was shot.

And in the Army, if he was such a dick that one of his own comrades shot him, with intention to kill him, not just wound him, the evidence will out, and it will not be me denigrating him.

But I'm willing to listen to alternative theories of why he was intentionally shot 3 times in the forehead by one of his peers. "Accident" doesn't quite cut it, though.

Posted by Anonymoose 2007-07-27 20:39|| 2007-07-27 20:39|| Front Page Top

#13 SI did a pretty big article about him and the way he died. Unfortunately they tried to bring in all the side crap from his one anti-war brother (not the other ranger brother w/him). And another ranger who was some coffee house goof -- (rangers must be getting different types than I remember if some of the dudes they interviewed were indicative of that unit.)

My swag is that he was prolly tryin' to do the right thing but got out too far in front of his folks, lost comm, and didn't stay down. OTOH, who ever the squad ldr was runnin' that show prolly should've had better control of his buys fire discipline. Not sure if Tillman had smoke on him but I would hope he and that other guy had a smoke grenade or some sort of star cluster....those are good to pop off -- enemy almost never has them and generally platoons/companies have their own SOPs on when to pop'em.

I wasn't there so hate to second guess -- but I doubt it was a fragging -- possible, sure, plausible, not really. Seemed to me Tillman just made a bush league mistake - standing up trying to yell across a ravine while a ma-deuce poppin' off caps -- when he knew friendlies were shooting...best bet is either stay down, pop smoke, or posibly stand up slow and do the POW salute from behind cover.

I have no clue how the army turned that incident into a SS citation, etc. Turned a tragic incident into a pr nightmare...I hope they fired the clowns who pulled that crap.

Posted by Broadhead6 2007-07-27 21:00|| 2007-07-27 21:00|| Front Page Top

#14 'moose, I thought he took it in the chest.....moonbats claim three to the head.....doesn't mean he took three to the head just because they claim it so.

Posted by Broadhead6 2007-07-27 21:01|| 2007-07-27 21:01|| Front Page Top

#15 frankly I don't even care if he took 3 - autoburst. I don't even care if he was tough on those around him. I care that this is being obsessively dwelt on (except for punishing those who fabricated testimony or evidence) by the weasels who use it to harm our WOT efforts. Does anybody with a rational mind think he was intentionally killed??? Tiny details obsessed by tiny minds. Jeebus

Posted by Frank G">Frank G 2007-07-27 21:05|| 2007-07-27 21:05|| Front Page Top

#16 A persistent problem with platoon use of advance patrol groups is that if the platoon takes fire, they shoot ahead. In absence of a video of the incident, I trust the official story.

Posted by McZoid 2007-07-27 21:08|| 2007-07-27 21:08|| Front Page Top

#17 The 3-shot to the forehead was from the Army Medical Examiner, who also was the one that determine the shots were from about 10 Meters out. He was the one who first raised the flag that something was seriously wrong.

That being the case, it just doesn't add up. If it was difficult to see, it would be difficult to group the shots; there would have to be a lot of ambient noise, so they couldn't hear Tillman shouting whatever he was shouting. He had to be standing there, not running or advancing.

The Army has determined that it was friendly fire that killed him. But there is no evidence of enemy fire anywhere near where they were, which disallows "heat of battle". This leaves either a trigger happy shooter firing at anything that moves, again disregarded because of the tight grouping; or someone shooting Tillman intentionally.

The issue then becomes if someone shot him, what was their motive. Twice it was mentioned that the Army asked his unit if he was well liked. His family thinks he was murdered because he was an atheist. That doesn't seem very likely at all.

So either just one guy hated him or he was generally disliked. If he had a history with just one guy, the rest of the unit would probably notice. But if he just didn't fit in, or had a very abrasive or reckless personality, that could be big trouble.

So what rises to the level of homicide?

Posted by Anonymoose 2007-07-27 21:19|| 2007-07-27 21:19|| Front Page Top

#18 I think less of you. Continue

Posted by Frank G">Frank G 2007-07-27 21:25|| 2007-07-27 21:25|| Front Page Top

#19 Sounds like you don't think much of Tillman, either.

He might not have been more than an ordinary hero, but he might also be a murder victim, whose killer has not been brought to justice.

Posted by Anonymoose 2007-07-27 22:00|| 2007-07-27 22:00|| Front Page Top

#20 The M16A2 was modified to remove 'full auto'. It does single shot or burst of three with one trigger pull. Now what version were they carrying? That model or something else?

That means someone could stumble or trip in unfamiliar terrain, go down hard on your elbows, and you get a messy outcome if the barrel is pointed in the wrong direction.

Posted by Procopius2k 2007-07-27 22:08|| 2007-07-27 22:08|| Front Page Top

#21 Moose,

To address one of your points;

"There's just too many things that don't make sense here. I didn't even know that the Rangers *had* Sp4s. That at least used to mean that you were not on the command track enough to even be made a Corporal, in the Infantry. Other branches had plenty of Sp4s, but not Infanty. Private or Corporal."

Dont confuse 70's rank with modern rank. Specials, E-4s or Spec-4s (slang term) are still around in EVERY branch. Actually, it is the begining rank for enlistment if you hve a college degree.

The three rounds to the head theory just doesnt hold water. The three round burst from an M-16 causes a weapon jerk and subsequent spread of the bullets shot group. this spread can vary from 16 inches to 3 ft. This is doubtful that three hit in the head.

Unless this is an official report released by the Army, I would not believe the medical examiner. There are just too many stories hitting the internet about soldiers and conspiracies that the facts never get checked. And this statement of three rounds to the head is the lynch pin to the whole theory. It should be checked first...personally I think its BS.

Finally, no one orders (from the top)anyone to murder someone. Sooner or later, it would come out to the news. Besides, the first rule of assasination is to kill the assasins.

Posted by Army Life 2007-07-27 22:10|| 2007-07-27 22:10|| Front Page Top

#22 I think the world of him, Moose for making a sacrifice I don't know that I would/could make. If he was "murdered", I'd like to see evidence, if valid convict the "murderers". If you're just extrapolating from your issues with his archetype, KMA. Nuff said. Say..... what about that JFK thing?

Posted by Frank G">Frank G 2007-07-27 22:34|| 2007-07-27 22:34|| Front Page Top

#23 I don't suspect any conspiracy to kill Tillman.

According to FOXNews: ...The medical examiners' suspicions were outlined in 2,300 pages of testimony released to the AP this week by the Defense Department in response to a Freedom of Information Act request...

...The documents show that a doctor who autopsied Tillman's body was suspicious of the three gunshot wounds to the forehead. The doctor said he took the unusual step of calling the Army's Human Resources Command and was rebuffed. He then asked an official at the Army's Criminal Investigation Division if the CID would consider opening a criminal case.

"He said he talked to his higher headquarters and they had said no," the doctor testified.

Also according to the documents, investigators pressed officers and soldiers on a question Mrs. Tillman has been asking all along.

"Have you, at any time since this incident occurred back on April 22, 2004, have you ever received any information even rumor that Cpl. Tillman was killed by anybody within his own unit intentionally?" an investigator asked then-Capt. Richard Scott.

Scott, and others who were asked, said they were certain the shooting was accidental.

Investigators also asked soldiers and commanders whether Tillman was disliked, whether anyone was jealous of his celebrity, or if he was considered arrogant. They said Tillman was respected, admired and well-liked...

Posted by Anonymoose 2007-07-27 23:32|| 2007-07-27 23:32|| Front Page Top

23:57 OldSpook
23:49 OldSpook
23:37 FOTSGreg
23:32 Anonymoose
23:29 trailing wife
23:16 Zenster
22:41 trailing wife
22:34 Frank G
22:33 Old Patriot
22:31 Frank G
22:30 Sigmund Freud
22:24 Procopius2k
22:24 twobyfour
22:14 gromgoru
22:14 trailing wife
22:14 Procopius2k
22:10 Army Life
22:08 Procopius2k
22:08 trailing wife
22:00 Anonymoose
21:53 gromgoru
21:40 Zenster
21:30 trailing wife
21:25 Frank G