Article

2008-02-03 Home Front: Politix

Archived material is restricted to Rantburg regulars and members. If you need access email fred.pruitt=at=gmail.com with your nick to be added to the members list. There is no charge to join Rantburg as a member.

Posted by lotp 2008-02-03 08:17|| || Front Page|| [11133 views ] Top

#1 the Jacksonville assignment also marked a dark chapter in McCain's personal life, a period marked by serial philandering and the end of his first marriage.

What's the name of that Southern general who said "a soldier who won't f*ck, won't fight"?

Posted by g(r)omgoru 2008-02-03 08:53|| 2008-02-03 08:53|| Front Page Top

#2 That's not the issue here, gr0mgoru.

McCain had a series of public affairs as squadron commander, while they were at the home base. That is, in my opinion as a military spouse and also according to military regulations, not only a major character flaw -- it's also a major abrogation of the duties of a commander. Doubly so if, as persistent stories say, some of those affairs were with the wives of his direct subordinates.

What makes it worse is that he did this in the post-Vietnam period when the military was trying hard to retain honor and dignity in the face of all the funding cutbacks and both Congressional and civilian denigration of servicemen and their families. It was a time that called for the highest leadership and a time in which this sort of character flaw and egocentric judgement was particularly corrosive to morale, discipline and the military's sense of its own traditions.

Unfortunately, IMO, his actions since then do indeed fit the same pattern.

Posted by lotp 2008-02-03 09:00|| 2008-02-03 09:00|| Front Page Top

#3 Lotp, I've heard that allegation but it just doesn't ring true to me. YOu make loath is politics but he has a sense of honor and I believe he would have faced something similar to the Swift Boats way back in 2000 if the allegations were true.

Posted by rjschwarz 2008-02-03 11:03|| 2008-02-03 11:03|| Front Page Top

#4 hmmmm, IIRC, he did criticize the Swift Boat Vets back in '04.

Also, to date, Kerry has NOT released all his mil records nor taken that cool mil that Pickens bet him

Posted by Frank G">Frank G 2008-02-03 11:16|| 2008-02-03 11:16|| Front Page Top

#5 lotp, just of the top of my head: Lord Nelson, JFK, LBJ.

Posted by g(r)omgoru 2008-02-03 13:29|| 2008-02-03 13:29|| Front Page Top

#6 Sure, sure.

But THIS wife of a retired officer, who is a just a few years younger than McCain and had close relatives voluntarily serve in Vietnam, does not think McCain is an honorable man or one who embodies the character of a military leader.

If he weren't running on his POW status I wouldn't say this so loudly. But because he is, I do. My husband and many of our close friends worked and sacrificed in those years to serve in uniform and restore the effectiveness of our military in the truly horrible years after we fled Saigon. IMO what McCain did as a commander in FL undercut that work of so many and just does not deserve respect.

FWIW

Posted by lotp 2008-02-03 13:53|| 2008-02-03 13:53|| Front Page Top

#7 If this was done in the post-vietnam era, that is likely the only reason McCain avoided a court martial. From what I understand, if an officer is caught committing adultery, especially back then, he was court-martialed and given the boot. The fact that he wasn't may be one reason why it's the navy areas he especially doesn't do well in.

Posted by Silentbrick">Silentbrick 2008-02-03 15:09|| 2008-02-03 15:09|| Front Page Top

#8 I've not seen the primary data myself, but there are several sources out there who say pretty much the same thing: Mac was a serial philanderer who did the horizontal tango with a number of women, some of whom were military spouses, some of whom were subordinate officers or enlisted ratings.

That really, really doesn't speak well of him. It's a question of honor.

I've said before, and I'll say again, that if it's the Hildebeast versus Mac, I'll vote for Mac.

Assuming I can use the voting booth stylus while I hold my nose.

Posted by Steve White">Steve White 2008-02-03 15:09|| 2008-02-03 15:09|| Front Page Top

#9 Get off of the moral highground pleeease. This is a time of war. Not a time of shopping with the ladies. We are all flawed and have fallen short, too many times myself. You want us to vote for the Governor of Mormachussets over one of our heroes. Mac is the only viable chance we have of keeping some sanity in the whitehouse. Have you ever listened to Mitt. When questioned about authorizing war against Iran after an attack he said he would ask the attorneys. What the hell kind of answer is that? Damn disgraceful.At least Mac served his nation, in a damn pit of hell, with honor. I'll look past some indiscretions. After you folks spend some time talking to the rats and counting days with little marks on the wall you come back with some moral highground. You're damn right he had some problems readjusting to the world after the war. Damn lucky he didn't eat a bullet like too many of our boys are doing now when they come home. Damn moral absolutism is the death of our nation and our great leaders. Normal men can no longer hold office because every damn housewife in the country feels bad because of an indiscretion or two. Get a grip. Real leadership is not absolute, no man is perfect. Perfection is an illusion and should be shunned. Any man without some skeletons is untrustable, untrustable. Forgive my rant, but I couldn't hold my tongue on this. Finally we have a candidate worth standing behind and damn moral absolutists are asking us to sacrifice him for some indiscretions. Unthinkable. Nuff said, I'll go back to my hole.

Posted by ElvisHasLeftTheBuilding 2008-02-03 16:05|| 2008-02-03 16:05|| Front Page Top

#10 I've the final word from the supreme arbiter, gromwife. "They condemn him for extramarital sex in the 70es? The 70es?!"

Posted by g(r)omgoru 2008-02-03 16:25|| 2008-02-03 16:25|| Front Page Top

#11 Well if there is a war on then let's get a Franks or Schwartzkopf in the ring. We know he will use overwhelming force on our enemies. The problem I have of with McCain is he is all about McCain. A lot like BJC without the charm.

I would vote for McCain if I thought he would actually plan and act to defeat our enemies instead of acting in a pique, taking his ball and going home because someone calls him names. Unfortunately, I don't trust any of the remaining candidates to put Americans' interests first.

Posted by ed 2008-02-03 16:30|| 2008-02-03 16:30|| Front Page Top

#12 We all fall short at times. No one is perfect. The Bible said:

"And why do you look at the splinter in your brother's eye, and not notice the beam which is in your own eye?"

The good book also speaks to the issue of forgiveness.

FDR, Eisenhower, Thomas Jefferson, Grover Cleveland, Warren G. Harding, JFK (the first), Clinton, etc. have had affairs. Does the behavior continue or did the person learn anything from it and cease the behavior? Does the act represent how the person will conduct the affairs of the country?

Posted by JohnQC 2008-02-03 16:36|| 2008-02-03 16:36|| Front Page Top

#13 Let me guess, Bill Clinton must be your best friend Elvis.

Screwing around on your wife isn't important or doesn't matter to being a leader?

I'm sorry but if someone is willing to violate the vow he/she makes to their spouse when they marry, why the hell should I trust them to keep any other oath they make?

If you can't keep your word to the person that is supposed to be the most important person in your life, then clearly unworthy of any position of trust.

When I vote for a candidate, any candidate, I don't check my morals and principles at the door. Honestly, I think failing to keep our principles and compromising on moral issues is WHY this country is heading in such a bad direction. Besides which, adultery is illegal under the Uniform Code of Military Justice, at least it was during the time that this supposedly occurred. The fact he was a POW doesn't excuse him from the oath he took at commissioning or the vow he made to his wife.

So while I can respect what he did by serving his country, I cannot respect the fact he's an oathbreaker and about 3mm to the right of the Hildabeast, which I firmly believe is an actual traitor. Being slightly to the right of her is no virtue.

Posted by Silentbrick">Silentbrick 2008-02-03 16:37|| 2008-02-03 16:37|| Front Page Top

#14 I don't know the answer to this question but since the President is the Commander in Chief, does the Uniform Code of Military Justice apply to him/her? Should he not be held to the same standard?

Posted by JohnQC 2008-02-03 16:52|| 2008-02-03 16:52|| Front Page Top

#15 Not if he's a Democrap, John.

/~~truth~~sarc off

Posted by Barbara Skolaut">Barbara Skolaut 2008-02-03 16:58|| http://ariellestjohndesigns.com/]">[http://ariellestjohndesigns.com/] 2008-02-03 16:58|| Front Page Top

#16 Couldn't help this posting :)

Hillary Clinton goes to a primary school in New York to talk about the world. After her talk she offers a question time. One little boy puts up his hand. The Senator asks him what his name is. "Kenneth." "And what is your question, Kenneth? "I have three questions: "First - whatever happened to the medical health care plan you were paid to develop during your husband's eight years in the office as President? "Second - why would you run for President after your husband shamed the office? "Third whatever happened to all those things you took when you left the White House?" Just then the bell rings for recess. Hillary Clinton informs the kids that they will continue after recess.

When they resume, Hillary says, "Okay, where were we? Oh, that's right, question time. Who has a question?" A different little boy puts his hand up. Hillary points him out and asks him what his name is. "Larry." "And what is your question, Larry?" "I have five questions: "First - whatever happened to the medical health care plan you were paid to develop during your husband's eight years in the office as President? "Second - why would you run for President after your husband shamed the office? "Third - whatever happened to all those things you took when you left the White House? "Fourth - why did the recess bell go off 20 minutes early? "Fifth-- Where's Kenneth?"

Posted by JohnQC 2008-02-03 17:00|| 2008-02-03 17:00|| Front Page Top

#17 Just a brief response ...

Elvis, it's not the adultery. It's the abuse of his role as a senior commander that I have a hard time getting past.

Again, not saying that as a housewife. But rather as the wife of a retired career officer who served during that time.

In any case, you can be sure that, fairly or unfairly, the Dems will hit McCain with this, and the Keating 5 scandal and more if he wins the nomination.

Posted by lotp 2008-02-03 17:14|| 2008-02-03 17:14|| Front Page Top

#18 Let's face it. McCain is all about himself. He will make a terrible president. Just another flyboy, like Cunningham who makes a wonderful pilot and terrible leader. Combat pilots are chosen because they are great athletes and don't wince in split second fighting. They rise to the top for those reasons, not necessarily leadership skills or personal character.

I find the references to God and forgiveness to be offensive in that it seems you are shaking your finger at others and saying that they need to forgive him for character flaws rather than look at him as a whole and what type of leader he will be. Did you feel that gay, meth using preacher in Colorado should be left in charge to lead his church? It's not about forgiveness of him, as a man, but about his character as a leader.

I too will pull the lever for McCain over Hillary or Obama, but what a sad selection we have been left with.

Posted by Grailing and Tenille1838 2008-02-03 18:14|| 2008-02-03 18:14|| Front Page Top

#19 lotp, just of the top of my head: Lord Nelson, JFK, LBJ.

The same Blessed Saint JFK who let the Cuban Exiles HIS government recruited die on the beach without air support?

That's one of the big initial sellouts-of-our-allies that set the pattern for the current conflict.

Posted by Abdominal Snowman 2008-02-03 18:26|| 2008-02-03 18:26|| Front Page Top

#20 Get off of the moral highground pleeease.

How many troops are you going to get killed because some dumb officer type couldn't keep his dick in his pants snd sleeps with the wrong enlisted man's wife?

Posted by Abdominal Snowman 2008-02-03 18:30|| 2008-02-03 18:30|| Front Page Top

#21 One out of 3 is not bad.

Posted by g(r)omgoru 2008-02-03 19:40|| 2008-02-03 19:40|| Front Page Top

#22 Finally we have a candidate worth standing behind and damn moral absolutists are asking us to sacrifice him for some indiscretions.

It does put one hell of a dent in his much touted POW-war-hero status, doesn't it?

Posted by Pappy 2008-02-03 20:05|| 2008-02-03 20:05|| Front Page Top

#23 It does put one hell of a dent in his much touted POW-war-hero status, doesn't it?

You mean he wasn't really a POW for 5 years?

Posted by g(r)omgoru 2008-02-03 21:43|| 2008-02-03 21:43|| Front Page Top

#24 That "don't judge" whine is what I expect from a Biblical CHERRY PICKER.

Here's the full text:

Judge not, that you be not judged. 2 For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you. 3 And why do you look at the speck in your brother's eye, but do not consider the plank in your own eye? 4 Or how can you say to your brother, 'Let me remove the speck from your eye'; and look, a plank is in your own eye? 5 Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.

The passage says that the standard of judgment you use will be the standard of judgment that will be used to judge you. If you use personal like and dislike to judge others, that's the standard that will be used to judge you. If you're fair, get the facts, see both sides, then make a judgment, then you will be judged fairly, based on the facts and after both sides are considered. In John 7:24, Jesus counsels people not to judge according to appearance, but to judge with righteous judgment.

Note the example of the speck and log: the person who takes the log out becomes qualified to remove the speck.

With regard to McCain, the situation is more stark than the log/speck comparision: someone who's never committed adultery is fully qualified to take the facts and render judgment. Hell, someone who's committed adultery, repented, confessed, and worked to never do it again is qualified to judge someone who's never repented or confessed it.

A few verses later, Jesus talks about judging false prophets by their fruits. In one letter, Paul is exasperated that Christians are taking Christians to court, and asks if there isn't anyone qualified to judge between them: after all, they will judge angels. Paul judged an adulterer, "handed him over to satan", and the guy came crawling back asking forgiveness, at which time Paul told the church to accept him back: whatever happened to the guy had terrified everyone else to the point of not getting near him. Finally, in Revelation, the Church of Ephesus is praised for detecting and weeding out false prophets and false teachers: sounds like judging to me.

I'm beginning to come around to the belief that the Gospels, Acts, and the epistles trace, in sequence, the spiritual maturation of Jesus' disciples in that, as they grew spiritually mature, Jesus' teaching became more detailed, specific, and gave more latitude: the Sermon on the Mount is extreme, but so are the prohibitions we put on children. As the children grow, we remove the absolutist aspects of the prohibitions because the children gain maturity and judgment, begin to see the wisdom and principles behind the rigid rules, and can tell when the rule applies and when it should be modified and how to modify it. (For instance, take Jesus' counsel to Peter to forgive his brother (who sins against him) 70 times 7 times. Later, Jesus gives a more detailed prescription on how the disciples should handle that repetitive sinner. Jesus was not contradicting himself: he had better material to work with as time went on.

Posted by Ptah">Ptah 2008-02-03 21:46|| http://www.crusaderwarcollege.org]">[http://www.crusaderwarcollege.org] 2008-02-03 21:46|| Front Page Top

#25 John McCain has screwed everyone he has supposedly been loyal to. He talked to the Democrats about leaving GOP when he did not get 'his due' during the last Presidential caucuses. He turned his back on law abiding American citizens and sided with Kennedy in favor of Mexican citizens who are in the United States illegally.

This is the first time I heard of him having affairs while married, breaking every oath he made to his wife and the military.

When Osama Bin Laden could have been handed over to the US by Sudan, Bill Clinton was too busy with the Monica controversy to take advantage of Sudan's offer.

I do believe that if a nation chooses such people as their leaders, that nation will be punished for that choice.

Posted by www 2008-02-03 22:36|| 2008-02-03 22:36|| Front Page Top

#26 I concur w/LOTP on this one. What goes on between a husband & wife is one thing but can be held up to some scrutiny for a pres candidate IMO. Now, if it's true mccain was having affairs w/his subordinate's spouses then that is beyond heinous - and I will stay home on principle if he's the rino candidate. As having two vacations to the sandbox under my belt and 11 yrs+ of active duty commissioned service in the Corps (& still going strong) I will not vote for a man that sleeps w/the wives of his men. That is way beyond f*cked up judgment. I absolutely honor mccain's service in the Hitlon, but a leader never intentionally f*cks his men & he never-ever f*cks their wives. Somethings are sacred.

I really hope this is not true - LOTP, how certain is it that this more than just a rumor?? I've never heard this one before.

Posted by Broadhead6 2008-02-03 23:03|| 2008-02-03 23:03|| Front Page Top

#27 Okay, I read the whole article - no mention of mccain doing subordinate spouses but mention of him possibly carousing w/subordinates. Murky waters. However, he seems to have admitted to adultery - I'm wondering (& not) why the navy never pressed ahead w/a command investigation. His voting record is bad enough -gango'14, keating5, mc-feingold, mc-teddy, opposed bush tax-cuts, yuck. He's the best the trunks have?? Almost as bad as what the donks are throwing up (no pun intd.)

Posted by Broadhead6 2008-02-03 23:14|| 2008-02-03 23:14|| Front Page Top

#28 This thing is starting to get legs already. Story from PipelineNews.org January 29, 2008

Posted by www 2008-02-03 23:32|| 2008-02-03 23:32|| Front Page Top

#29 Well,I will not argue that the D's will not use it, but I don't think it will stick to him, whether he did it or not. The man, and I don't know him personally, seems honorable enough in a dishonest profession. Politics is dirty, dirty, business and I'm aware of how it reflects when a man abuses his position and acts like a horny teenager.

But I never heard of this incident before you posted it here. I'm voting for him against the other candidates. Mitt Romney didn't sit in a hole in the ground for America for 5 years Obama and Hillary didn't either. I don't know dick Romney has done for this country that comes within the orbit and magnitude of the sacrifice McCain and those other brave men made everyday for us in that hell. Does that make Mac a better potential President. For me it does.

I don't really want to play politics here for the most part though or religion. (Though you can't tell by today's posts.) Those are not why I'm here. We'll see what happens in the general. I know who I'm voting for and why. I'm not on Mac's campaign, I'm not going to volunteer for his campaign.

Can you say that of Romney lotp. What's your special interest and all on putting Romney out here as your guy. Are you using your mod position to spread his campaign message. If so I want to know so I can discount your information as such propoganda and move forward. I don't see this posting as relevant otherwise, just looks like rumor and propaganda. That's my issue Steve. But I'll play nice otherwise. The Burg Rocks! Keep it up.

Posted by ElvisHasLeftTheBuilding 2008-02-03 23:45|| 2008-02-03 23:45|| Front Page Top

#30 ElvisHasLeftTheBuilding, I'm the little housewife. lotp is a the wife of a career military man, a former businesswoman who has done military research, and has volunteered to go to Afghanistan. She also has studied theology. I can vouch that she writes to share her personal viewpoint, not to work for a particular candidate -- with what she's got going on just now, she certainly doesn't have the time, and Rantburgers are so cussed independent that it doesn't work well anyway.

Posted by trailing wife 2008-02-03 23:57|| 2008-02-03 23:57|| Front Page Top

23:57 trailing wife
23:49 Jeff
23:46 trailing wife
23:45 ElvisHasLeftTheBuilding
23:32 www
23:29 SteveS
23:16 gorb
23:14 USN,Ret.
23:14 Broadhead6
23:06 g(r)omgoru
23:03 Broadhead6
22:57 Barbara Skolaut
22:55 trailing wife
22:50 www
22:49 Junior Assistant Sock Puppet of Doom
22:45 gorb
22:44 trailing wife
22:43 Junior Assistant Sock Puppet of Doom
22:36 trailing wife
22:36 M. Murcek
22:36 www
22:30 Junior Assistant Sock Puppet of Doom
22:28 Grease Dark Lord of the Algonquins9226
22:25 M. Murcek