Article

2009-10-13 Economy

Energy crisis is postponed as new gas rescues the world

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Posted by Fred 2009-10-13 00:00|| || Front Page|| [4 views ] Top

#1 "Not gonna be allowed to happen"? Pls explain, Fred. Isn't most of the work going to happen in the more pro-gas states like TX and OK (rather than CO or CA)?

Posted by lex 2009-10-13 02:10|| 2009-10-13 02:10|| Front Page Top

#2 As I regularly tell you. Natural gas powered vehicles are the solution to US energy imports and energy independence.

Here in Perth, every bus, taxi, delivery vehicle, and most high mileage private cars are natural gas powered.

NG is also safer than petrol.

The problem is car manufacturers have only just started making NG powered vehicles. So for years here, brand new vehicles would go into the shop for an NG conversion before being driven.

I'll self snip my normal rant about the idiocy of electric vehicles.

Posted by phil_b 2009-10-13 03:44|| 2009-10-13 03:44|| Front Page Top

#3 the idiocy of electric vehicles.

Que?

Posted by g(r)omgoru 2009-10-13 05:26|| 2009-10-13 05:26|| Front Page Top

#4 Que?

Electric vehicles require substantially more energy to power them than petrol/diesel/NG powered vehicles because of the inherent inefficiences electricity production, distribution and storage.

Electric vehicles would be OK despite their energy inefficency if ample surplus electricity were available from nuclear and coal power stations.

Ironically, for many people the cheapest source of electricity is from in home generation using Natural gas.

Posted by phil_b 2009-10-13 07:18|| 2009-10-13 07:18|| Front Page Top

#5 CNG in the US is the answer for cars. Honda makes the only pure CNG vehicle that I know of for the US market but I would not get one just yet. The tank is too small and there are not enough refuel stations. What we are doing is working the conversion of our car. It can run on either gas or CNG at the turn or a switch. This way if the CNG runs low, its back to gas until we get home. You can buy a CNG compressor to fill your cars at home. The compressor is a bit slow, takes the night to fill a car, but you plug it when you get home at night and by morning your good to go. The compressor costs about 2,500 dollars. The conversion for the car is also about 2,500 depending on the size tank you buy.

Posted by 49 Pan 2009-10-13 07:45|| 2009-10-13 07:45|| Front Page Top

#6 You can also make synthetic diesel from natural gas - some is being made to blend with conventional diesel in order to meet some stringent emissions rules, especially in Europe. It is still quite costly - 2-3 times more than conventional - and I don't know how energy-inefficient the processing is, but it is easier to handle than CNG or LNG and you can go farther on a fill-up. I figure if you can make synthetic diesel from natural gas you can probably also make jet fuel.
New US natural gas supplies (mostly shale and tight sand gas) do seem to be large, and have shut down LNG importation projects and most high-cost offshore conventional gas drilling; these new gas wells are not 'great' - but there are thousands of them, and we can drill many more, with (seemingly) predictable results, which sets a ceiling on gas prices (absent any demand increase). And there's lots more gas elsewhere, available to us through LNG imports, if it is cheaper than our own new gas (so far it mostly is not.) So far though, Britain does not seem to have big new domestic supplies, so they are still dependent on Russia - and on LNG imports from West Africa or the Persian Gulf or Trinidad; unfortunately for the Brits, LNG re-gassification plants are NIMBY projects, so they'll mostly stay beholden to Moscow.

Posted by Glenmore 2009-10-13 08:14|| 2009-10-13 08:14|| Front Page Top

#7 I say it's not gonna be allowed to happen because without a never-ending energy crisis the bottom drops out of the Green movement. With the bottom goes the justification for vast government spending and great gobs of power accruing to the dictatorial class.

Posted by Fred 2009-10-13 08:29|| 2009-10-13 08:29|| Front Page Top

#8 There's no single answer. More CNG is cool, but we still need nuclear, coal and petroleum -- in that order :-)

Posted by Iblis 2009-10-13 10:36|| 2009-10-13 10:36|| Front Page Top

#9 Followup on Fred's "not gonna be allowed to happen" -- won't be allowed to happen because, according to the greenies, extracting oil from shale takes too much water. That's bad, ya know, especially when you return the water to the environment, even if you treat and clean it. Can't be clean enough for them, so you're not allowed to extract oil and gas from shale.

That's it. Settled. Accept your lower economic status, chumbalones, and let the elites do your thinking for you.

Posted by Steve White 2009-10-13 11:05|| 2009-10-13 11:05|| Front Page Top

#10 Fred's correct while gas is at $2.50 per gallon. At a sustained level of $5.00 per gallon, something I fully expect once the recession is over (say 3-5 years) there will be tremendous pressure to ignore the greens. Not just because of Joe Six Pack's pressure, but because we will relapse into recession. This will costs the states a pretty penny, especially with the pension crisis hitting them. They will be broke. And extraction fees will be their only new source of revenue. Pennsylvania will lead this charge and New York will join.

Or Iran will use its bomb first.

Posted by Nimble Spemble 2009-10-13 11:43|| 2009-10-13 11:43|| Front Page Top

#11 I once owned a heavy truck (3 ton van 302 ford engine) cross fitted for either gasoline or propane, I did a cost-per-mile analysis and it was dead even. no gain either fuel.

Posted by Redneck Jim 2009-10-13 13:22|| 2009-10-13 13:22|| Front Page Top

#12 At what pricepoints, Redneck Jim?

Posted by trailing wife">trailing wife 2009-10-13 13:47|| 2009-10-13 13:47|| Front Page Top

#13 Electric vehicles require substantially more energy to power them than petrol/diesel/NG powered vehicles because of the inherent inefficiences electricity production, distribution and storage.

Definitely not true about production. What's the efficiency of internal combustion---8% to 10%?Distribution is matter of engineering.
Storage we haven't solved yet.
On the plus side
(a) Think relative mechanical simplicity (and hence price: both initial & upkeep; to the castumer).
(b) No partial combustion products (real pollutants unlike CO2), just a bit of O3---which is actually refreshing.
(c) No noise pollution.

Posted by g(r)omgoru 2009-10-13 15:03|| 2009-10-13 15:03|| Front Page Top

#14 Petrol/diesel car engines are in the range of 25% to 40% fuel efficient. At source electricity generation from coal is 30% to 35% efficient.

Posted by phil_b 2009-10-13 20:47|| 2009-10-13 20:47|| Front Page Top

#15 Coal is also $9/ton (Powder River) while oil is $75/barrel. That's $0.51/Million Btus vs $12.9/Million Btus.

Posted by ed 2009-10-13 21:18|| 2009-10-13 21:18|| Front Page Top

#16 Petrol/diesel car engines are in the range of 25% to 40% fuel efficient

That's if you use the company ad mileage per gallon numbers---don't know about your car, but mine doesn't even come close.

Posted by g(r)omgoru 2009-10-13 23:13|| 2009-10-13 23:13|| Front Page Top

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