Article

2011-08-12 Britain

Police Raid Houses Across London to Make Riot Arrests

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Posted by Fred 2011-08-12 00:00|| || Front Page|| [1 views ] Top

#1 Take those warrants, make a forced entry and stomp everything inside these peoples houses.

Posted by Gleregum tse Tung1512 2011-08-12 06:28|| 2011-08-12 06:28|| Front Page Top

#2 What the hell does this have to do with gun control...geezus!!

Posted by Shakey Steve 2011-08-12 06:39|| 2011-08-12 06:39|| Front Page Top

#3 Hey Moron, they have no guns, that's why this is happening.
A few determined People with Guns would stop this shit in it's tracks.

THAT'S WHY THE LACK OF GUNS IS IMPORTAINT.

Posted by Redneck Jim 2011-08-12 08:53|| 2011-08-12 08:53|| Front Page Top

#4 Easy, Shakey: ordinary citizens with firearms can defend themselves, their families and their homes from yobs.

What, you were expecting the police to do that?

Posted by Steve White 2011-08-12 08:56|| 2011-08-12 08:56|| Front Page Top

#5 ordinary citizens with firearms can defend themselves, their families and their homes from ~~yobs~~ police / pols. FIFY

And this is what Tremblin' Tom is really afraid of.

Posted by AlanC 2011-08-12 09:06|| 2011-08-12 09:06|| Front Page Top

#6 "Hey Moron, they have no guns, that's why this is happening.
A few determined People with Guns would stop this shit in it's tracks."

Tell me something...did guns stop the Rodney King riots? Did they stop the Watts riots? NO. I'm as hardline as anyone when it comes to cracking down on those a-holes, but the London Police do have guns! How the hell did this whole thing start in the first place..with GUNS...IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH GUN CONTROL...

Posted by Shakey Steve 2011-08-12 09:46|| 2011-08-12 09:46|| Front Page Top

#7 It has everything to do with disarming the public and denying them the right of self-defense, moron. When a burglar in your house has the government-given right to your goods without fear of harm, you've created a mentality that allows looting. A Brit that defends himself in his home has the expectation of prosecution

Posted by Frank G 2011-08-12 10:12|| 2011-08-12 10:12|| Front Page Top

#8 I saw the cops standing around with riot shield and no battons. No guns, No mace, no tasers. Poorly trained and running from the protesters.

Posted by newc 2011-08-12 10:16|| 2011-08-12 10:16|| Front Page Top

#9 What 'government-given right' are you talking about? And, please refrain from the term 'moron' with someone that doesn't share your opinion...you start to sound like some 80 year old fart who's life has passed them by...

Posted by Shakey Steve 2011-08-12 10:18|| 2011-08-12 10:18|| Front Page Top

#10 "I saw the cops standing around with riot shield and no battons. No guns, No mace, no tasers. Poorly trained and running from the protesters."

Ok. I will only speak for what I know, so I won't speak of Britain but Canada. Canada has gun control. But 'gun control' does not mean 'gun prohibition'. For instance, Canadian police (e.g. RCMP, and one of my brothers is an RCMP officer in Alberta) are as well armed as any American cop, when needed. But, generally, when a riot starts, they resort to billyclubs first, before bullets. This isn't bloody Iran, for Christ's sake...

Posted by Shakey Steve 2011-08-12 10:24|| 2011-08-12 10:24|| Front Page Top

#11 Keep it civil Shakey. You're the newcomer here.

Police have guns, except London police who don't and need special permission to carry them.

And of course you know the old saying, "when seconds count, the police are only minutes away."

It's another way of noting that in a crisis, police won't be there to protect you, they'll be by afterwards to write a report and (perhaps) track down the evil-doers.

I'm a law-abiding person. I detest violence. If some yob comes after me, my family or my home, I sure hope the police are nearby and can intervene. Because if they don't, I'm going to plug the social miscreant.

Posted by Steve White 2011-08-12 10:26|| 2011-08-12 10:26|| Front Page Top

#12 What 'government-given right' are you talking about?

Frank is referring to the socialist idea that a looter, as an oppressed class ally of the proletariat, has more rights than you, a class enemy, have.

See the Gulag Archipelago and Solzhenitsyn for details.

Posted by Steve White 2011-08-12 10:29|| 2011-08-12 10:29|| Front Page Top

#13 "Keep it civil Shakey. You're the newcomer here."

I have. Unfortunately, if you have a different opinion you are called a moron and told to get lost. I guess the 'Civil' part of the 'Civil, well-reasoned discourse' is just to fill-in some empty space on the banner of this site...

Posted by Shakey Steve 2011-08-12 10:38|| 2011-08-12 10:38|| Front Page Top

#14 The UK was once one of the most law-abiding countries on earth. The UK riots have nothing to do with the population not being armed, and are mostly to do with (1) societal rot and (2) UK police & prosecutors abandoning their traditional roles and carrying out the UK leftist agenda.

Posted by Anguper Hupomosing9418 2011-08-12 10:39|| 2011-08-12 10:39|| Front Page Top

#15 you are called a moron and told to get lost. You ARE a moron. Get lost.

Posted by Anguper Hupomosing9418 2011-08-12 10:40|| 2011-08-12 10:40|| Front Page Top

#16 By the way, I agree with: "I'm a law-abiding person. I detest violence. If some yob comes after me, my family or my home, I sure hope the police are nearby and can intervene. Because if they don't, I'm going to plug the social miscreant.". I would to. But the point of this whole blowup is that the rioting in Britain would have happened whether there was gun-control or not. Hell, riots and looting have happened in the States (and Canada) many times over the last 50 years, yet I don't see anyone linking gun-control to all these riots...

Posted by Shakey Steve 2011-08-12 10:43|| 2011-08-12 10:43|| Front Page Top

#17 "you are called a moron and told to get lost. You ARE a moron. Get lost."

Case in point, Steve. Will you ask him/her to be civil??

Posted by Shakey Steve 2011-08-12 10:44|| 2011-08-12 10:44|| Front Page Top

#18 "The UK was once one of the most law-abiding countries on earth. The UK riots have nothing to do with the population not being armed, and are mostly to do with (1) societal rot and (2) UK police & prosecutors abandoning their traditional roles and carrying out the UK leftist agenda."

I agree!

Posted by Shakey Steve 2011-08-12 10:46|| 2011-08-12 10:46|| Front Page Top

#19 Shakey, glad we agree, there are multiple causes for bad people to do bad stuff. However, there is but one cause for the bad stuff to be happening to YOUR stuff, and it is that you are not popping caps in the asses of the bad people. And why not? Societal rot? No, good people grabbed bats and sticks to try to defend their houses and property. It is that they were insufficiently armed to get caps in all the asses that presented themselves.

The key point here is to distinguish the reasons the rioting started, and the reason it continued beyond an hour. These are different things and have different reasons.

The good people of England have been disarmed and abused by their government to the point that they cannot effectively stop bad people from damaging their homes and property. This must end.

I do not care about why people start riots, they give up all the protections of the law at that point, and whatever their grievance may be I do not care to acknowledge it or assuage it. This is because since its remedy is riot, it is fundamentally an illegitimate grievance in a representative society.

I only care that the riot stops swiftly. Thus to me, disarming the populace is exactly the most important policy to change. And this change should be brought about swiftly through the representative process.

Posted by rammer 2011-08-12 11:49|| 2011-08-12 11:49|| Front Page Top

#20 Tell me something...did guns stop the Rodney King riots?

No. In fact, the LAPD was pretty much hands-off in early stages of the riot, much like Metropolitan. And as I recall, the 1969 Montreal riots were under a similar situation (striking cops, no one had weapons). So much for a 'civilised' country.

But in LA, those that were armed, or were able to hire armed security, prevented their homes and businesses from being looted and burned. I'd say that's a game changer.

Posted by Pappy 2011-08-12 11:55|| 2011-08-12 11:55|| Front Page Top

#21 ..the Korean grocers stop their shops from being burned and looted in the area by open displays of their weapons. The race card couldn't be played. At the time there were Koreans still living who actually were REAL slaves of Japanese when Japan ruled their nation.

Posted by Procopius2k 2011-08-12 12:12|| 2011-08-12 12:12|| Front Page Top

#22 "And as I recall, the 1969 Montreal riots were under a similar situation (striking cops, no one had weapons). So much for a 'civilised' country."

My argument, I still have not read a true rebuttal to it, is that whether England practises gun-control, or whether you could buy a gun off a rack beside the chocolate bars at a corner store, this would not have prevented the riot. Some of the looting, yes. (As would sending in the Army and setting a curfew)..But not the riot itself.

Posted by Shakey Steve 2011-08-12 12:30|| 2011-08-12 12:30|| Front Page Top

#23 To everyone commenting: calm down.

To Shakey: a few guns would not stop the riots. A few more guns might. The Turks and Kurds who banded together in that one neighborhood in London certainly stopped both the looting and the riots in THEIR streets. Let them have some guns and I'm betting the rioters would have suddenly had a come-to-Jesus moment.

What stops the riots from occurring in the first place is a return of our society to concepts of personal responsibility that have been systemically removed these past few decades. Some folks need the idea introduced at the head of a load of buckshot. Unfortunate but it happens.

Posted by Steve White 2011-08-12 12:50|| 2011-08-12 12:50|| Front Page Top

#24 Steve - I admire you and the other mods - y'all are so patient....

Posted by Barbara 2011-08-12 14:47|| 2011-08-12 14:47|| Front Page Top

#25 My argument, I still have not read a true rebuttal to it...this would not have prevented the riot.

Straw argument with a ludicrous base. It's akin to saying that if every teen was issued birth control, it would prevent the wave of pregnancies.

No one in the comment thread has said an armed citizenry would have prevented the riot. However, IMNSHO based on personal experience in the LA riots, it certainly would have lessened its effects.

Posted by Pappy 2011-08-12 14:48|| 2011-08-12 14:48|| Front Page Top

#26

Tell me something...did guns stop the Rodney King riots?

Contained them.

Posted by Rob Crawford 2011-08-12 15:42|| 2011-08-12 15:42|| Front Page Top

#27 Local Kansas City legend was when the '68 riots broke out and the area was in chaos, citizens were grabing their firearms and siezing bridges to control access to their neighborhoods.

It could have had the effect of limiting the scope of the riot and lawlessness and retribution and, within 48 hours, the riots were under control, though protest and spot fires accured for another 5 days or so.

Those sikhs had pointy things brandished. I thought they were against the law. Eagerly looking forward to Britains handling of this...by banning the broadcast of softball, little leage and college level US Baseball broadcasts followed by the game itself, likely cricket to follow, for their glorification of a weapon of war and violence.

Posted by swksvolFF 2011-08-12 16:00|| 2011-08-12 16:00|| Front Page Top

#28 whether England practises gun-control, or whether you could buy a gun off a rack beside the chocolate bars at a corner store

As far as I am aware, and admittedly I've never tried to buy a gun, American gun laws do not permit buying guns off racks at the corner store. There is a three day waiting period to check one's name against lists of felons and the insane on state and federal lists, so that even buying a bullet propellor of some sort at WalMart will not be consummated on a whim.

The issue in Britain is that disproportionate self-defense (he had a knife, so I used a chainsaw) is illegal, and those defending hearth and home have been jailed in recent years for harming an invader, even only using a poker or a kitchen knife. So a lot of the damage of people and property happened because people were afraid to do anything when attacked.... Including the police, observed repeatedly during the first few days backing away from a charging mob. But the determination to band together in self defense is spreading among our cousins on the other side of the pond, which should make politics quite interesting next time round.

Guns are useful for fighting off the hooligans at a distance, with less chance of them getting their own licks in, and as an equalizer for a small number against a rampaging mob.

As Heinlein wrote, "An armed populace is a polite populace.". Or something like that. The riots would not have gone on as they did had the "shoppers" been met with buckshot at the first high street shops they called on, with the certainty of more of the same wherever they went.

Think how you might have rephrased your original question so it did not contain an implied insult to those who don't agree with you. This exercise will help you understand why those who know more on the subject responded impatiently.

Posted by trailing wife 2011-08-12 16:03|| 2011-08-12 16:03|| Front Page Top

#29 T-W, I agree with everything you say except for the Heinlein quote. To me, it depends on the country. In the US it may work (though it is worthy of debate) because there is a sense of civility already engrained in the culture. But would it work in a country like Somalia, or Haiti, or Bosnia?...proof may be in the pudding.

Posted by Shakey Steve 2011-08-12 16:18|| 2011-08-12 16:18|| Front Page Top

#30 P2K, that was good video. Here are some more scenes of citizens who know how to stop looting.

Posted by Ebbang Uluque6305 2011-08-12 16:47|| 2011-08-12 16:47|| Front Page Top

#31 But would it work in a country like Somalia, or Haiti, or Bosnia?

Pish. Heinlein's point is that people are nicer to you - in the sense of being less likely to rob, rape or kill you - if you are armed. And yeah, it applies to those places too.

Posted by SteveS 2011-08-12 17:29|| 2011-08-12 17:29|| Front Page Top

#32 An unfortunate example of Heinlein's theorem was during a rash of road rage and gang-banger shooting incidents in SoCal. Drivers were much less inclined to flip-off, cut off or abuse other drivers.

Posted by Pappy 2011-08-12 18:06|| 2011-08-12 18:06|| Front Page Top

#33 Theodore Dalrymple on the riots: The ferocious criminality exhibited by an uncomfortably large section of the English population during the current riots has not surprised me in the least. I have been writing about it, in its slightly less acute manifestations, for the past 20 years. To have spotted it required no great perspicacity on my part; rather, it took a peculiar cowardly blindness, one regularly displayed by the British intelligentsia and political class, not to see it and not to realize its significance...long experience of impunity has taught the rioters that they have nothing to fear from the law, which in England has become almost comically laxexcept, that is, for the victims of crime. For the rioters, crime has become the default setting of their behavior; the surprising thing about the riots is not that they have occurred, but that they did not occur sooner and did not become chronic. Guns are almost irrelevant to that situation.

Posted by Anguper Hupomosing9418 2011-08-12 18:09|| 2011-08-12 18:09|| Front Page Top

#34 TW, depending on local laws, one can go into WalMart and buy a shotgun 'off the rack' (actually, out of a locked case) after about 20 minutes of paperwork and background check, assuming the computers are all working right. Then they carry it out to your car before handing it to you (my understanding is that mainly they don't want suicides in the store.)

Posted by Lumpy Jereper5908 2011-08-12 18:16|| 2011-08-12 18:16|| Front Page Top

#35 Somalia, where the armed gangs get the food, and the disarmed population must either join the gang/warlord or meek out a life?

But Samuel Colt made them equal. When it gets in their head, a person will figure out a way to kill somebody, preferably with a tool. This martial imbalance leans heavy in favor of the 16-25 year old male. There are old ladies out here whose range with a rifle is only limited by their eyesight. If the simple act of having a firearm made people crazy, I'd be dodging sniper fire like Hillary! all the time. But I don't. The threat to my family comes down to me to address, and it is the 19-24 male doped on meth who does not care much for others sober in a good mood, and his buddy, also amped on drugs because it was not his idea but ya travel in pairs when raiding a house. My house is scouted, they are at the door. Or even better, its the afternoon and I'm not home but the rest of the family is. See, I can control my house, I cannot control police response times.

Posted by swksvolFF 2011-08-12 18:23|| 2011-08-12 18:23|| Front Page Top

#36 Hah, LJ5908, never thought of that, too much on the job learning. I did visit the big town today, went to the grocery store, guy was open carry. Looked like a plain clothes LEO to me, but it was interesting to watch the other shoppers.

Any idea what the legal FPS is for airguns in Britain?

Posted by swksvolFF 2011-08-12 18:29|| 2011-08-12 18:29|| Front Page Top

#37 Thank you, Lumpy Jereper5908. The seashore of my ignorance is now one pebble smaller. :-).

Shakey Steve, you see what others more knowledgeable than I have to say about Heinlein. I wasn't honestly thinking beyond the West. I know that the SS didn't arrest my grandfather back in the day, because his hunting dog was growling and his hunting rifle leaned against the wall -- and by the time they came back he and my grandmother had fled to Holland. Mama joined them later, very excited that she was being trusted to ride the train by herself.

Posted by trailing wife 2011-08-12 19:48|| 2011-08-12 19:48|| Front Page Top

23:57 swksvolFF
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23:44 RandomJD
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22:54 Steve White
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22:24 JosephMendiola
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21:48 abu do you love
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