Article

2022-06-16 Caucasus/Russia/Central Asia

Fighting in Severodonetsk proceeds, storm by Russians of Toshkivka repulsed

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Posted by badanov 2022-06-16 00:00|| || Front Page|| [8 views ] Top

#1 The Ukrainian spin has gone from laughable to pathetic. In just 14 days Ukrainian authorities have raised their casualty figures four times, from "60 to 100" per day to "100 to 200," then to "200-500", and then they doubled that figure again.

Yesterday, the Ukrainian member of parliament who leads their negotiating efforts admitted the true number is now 1,000 Ukrainian killed or wounded every day -- in the Donbas alone.

Ukraine suffering up to 1,000 casualties per day in Donbas, official says
Dave Lawler
AXIOS
June 15, 2022

Up to 1,000 Ukrainian soldiers are being killed or wounded each day in the Donbas region of eastern Ukraine, with 200 to 500 killed on average and many more wounded, a top Ukrainian official said on Wednesday.

The big picture: President Volodymyr Zelensky said on June 1 that 60 to 100 Ukrainian troops were being killed daily as Russia stepped up its Donbas offensive. Over the past two weeks that number has climbed significantly according to David Arakhamia, who leads Ukraine's negotiations with Russia and is one of Zelensky's closest advisers.

Posted by Palmerston 2022-06-16 10:52|| 2022-06-16 10:52|| Front Page Top

#2 This means the true number of daily losses across Ukraine is even higher than 1,000. They're also suffering casualties in the south and west, in Kherson and from strikes on munitions and ammo stores. The true number of killed and wounded each day is probably closer to 1,300.

This exceeds by a wide margin anything that the US or any of its allies has ever experienced, on any day of fighting, in any of its wars during the past 60 years.

The American strategy of encouraging this slaughter of its supposed "ally" is beyond cynical. The Americans want to see Ukraine destroyed and carved up, and Europe reduced to bankruptcy.

Posted by Palmerston 2022-06-16 10:59|| 2022-06-16 10:59|| Front Page Top

#3 The American strategy of encouraging this slaughter of its supposed "ally" is beyond cynical. The Americans want to see Ukraine destroyed and carved up, and Europe reduced to bankruptcy.

And the MIC and the Swampies pocket their loot.

They're destroying everything else, so why not destroy Ukraine too?

Strangle the economy, crush the stock market, trash the Constitution, open the border, destroy the entire global economy. For Biden and his freaks this is Hitler in his bunker time.

Posted by Billy Budd 2022-06-16 11:09|| 2022-06-16 11:09|| Front Page Top

#4 I'm not pro-Ukraine. I'm not pro-Russian. So, I'm hated by all. Just as I like it.

Posted by M. Murcek 2022-06-16 11:10|| 2022-06-16 11:10|| Front Page Top

#5 The Ukrainians are desperately trying to stop more of their men evading military service by fleeing to Poland.

They introduced a ban on leaving the country: any Ukrainian man aged 18 to 60 seeking to leave the country must obtain a special permit. However, half a million Ukrainian men have slipped out anyway, according to Ukraine's Border Guard: “From February 24 to June 7, 2022, a total of 3.645 million Ukrainian citizens entered Poland from Ukraine, including 432,000 Ukrainian male citizens aged 18-60 years. The Border Guard has not transferred the data of these persons to the services of Ukraine” – according to Border Guard spokesman, Lieutenant Anna Michalska.

This number is just for escapees to Poland. The Border Guard did not disclose how many Ukrainians left via Moldova or Romania.

Posted by Slusotch 2022-06-16 11:23|| 2022-06-16 11:23|| Front Page Top

#6 Jackleg Posobiec is whining that we must defend Poland, because he's polish.

FOAD, dude.

Posted by M. Murcek 2022-06-16 11:26|| 2022-06-16 11:26|| Front Page Top

#7 ^ Can you blame them? The casualty rate for Ukrainian conscripts is 65%.

Posted by Billy Budd 2022-06-16 11:29|| 2022-06-16 11:29|| Front Page Top

#8 It's a bloodbath. There's no end in sight. Putin has absolutely no reason to negotiate. Russia's rolling in money and has the strongest currency in the world. They're actually lowering their interest rates while the US Fed are desperately trying to raise them higher and higher in order to create a recession in the US. The Russians can easily deal with sanctions; they've been dealing with them successfully for 14 years.

The West is being crushed. By refusing to force the Ukrainians to capitulate, Biden is creating the worst economic disaster of our lifetimes. Unbelievably foolish -- a debacle for the ages

Posted by Palmerston 2022-06-16 11:37|| 2022-06-16 11:37|| Front Page Top

#9 The West is being crushed.

More like willingly stepping on our own dick.

Posted by M. Murcek 2022-06-16 11:46|| 2022-06-16 11:46|| Front Page Top

#10 Two more openings for western would-be soldiers of fortune - from military.com:

Two U.S. veterans were reportedly captured by Russian troops in Ukraine last week, with their families and lawmakers now working to find out what happened and whether they are in Russian custody.

The U.S. State Department confirmed that it is aware of media reports that two American citizens and veterans who were volunteers in Ukraine have been captured.
Military.com, in speaking to government officials and family members, has been able to confirm that both men, Alexander Drueke, 39, and Andy Huynh, 27, were veterans who traveled to Ukraine in April. Their families now say both have since gone missing.

Lois Drueke, Alexander's mother, told Military.com that her son was an Army veteran of eight years, left the military as a staff sergeant, and volunteered to train Ukrainians starting in April. Military.com reached out to the Army to independently verify Drueke's service history but did not immediately hear back, although Drueke's mother did share photos showing her son in uniform. Lois Drueke said that her son was part of the Army's Chemical Corps, having served two tours in Iraq."Alex did not reenlist after his second tour in Iraq," she said. "He came home with severe PTSD, and he has been searching for a purpose in life."

Local media in Huynh's home state of Alabama reported that he was a Marine veteran who left to fight in Ukraine in April after seeing images of Ukrainian teenagers battling Russian forces.

. . .Claire Finkelstein, the founder and academic director of the Center for Ethics and the Rule of Law, told Military.com in an email Wednesday that, assuming a former U.S. service member was taking orders from the Ukrainian military, wearing their uniforms, and carrying their arms openly, they would be "entitled to full POW treatment under the Geneva Conventions"

Posted by Huponter Omineper2871 2022-06-16 11:55|| 2022-06-16 11:55|| Front Page Top

#11 The American strategy of encouraging this slaughter of its supposed "ally" is beyond cynical.
Posted by: Palmerston

No one is stopping Zelenzky, he can surrender at any time. It's not up to the US to decide when it's over. Blame Zelensky and Putin.

Posted by Vespasian Ebboting9735 2022-06-16 11:59|| 2022-06-16 11:59|| Front Page Top

#12 The Ukrainian strategy is bizarre. They keep on making "last stands" in factories -- AzovStal, now Azov -- which only prolong the inevitable capitulation and cause more slaughter and destruction. They know there is no way on earth that a few more howizters or harpoons or tanks will change the balance. The Donbas is lost, and the Russians are targeting and destroying much of the new materiel before it even reaches the field.

Unless the Ukrainian battalions withdraw from the Donbas and reconstitute their forces in the west and south, they will not be capable of massing the quantity of concentrated forces for a successful offensive that would take back an entire region or province.

Their evident desire is to create a persistent image of every battle as a mini-Stalingrad -- not because of any strategic rationale but because they seem to think it offers the chance for more headlines and pseudo-victories in their information war.

It's as if their military strategy is being dictated by media flacks and British tabloids' headline writers.

Posted by Billy Budd 2022-06-16 12:18|| 2022-06-16 12:18|| Front Page Top

#13 *factories -- AzovStal, now Azot

Posted by Billy Budd 2022-06-16 12:19|| 2022-06-16 12:19|| Front Page Top

#14 Can you blame them? The casualty rate for Ukrainian conscripts is 65%.

The Ukrainians arriving in Krakow say the war is going even worse than you can imagine. Soldiers are being chopped up like meat. They're mutinying, deserting, running to Poland or Moldova, anywhere. They say that when a group tries to surrender to the Russians, another group's officers shoot them in the back.

Posted by Slusotch 2022-06-16 12:25|| 2022-06-16 12:25|| Front Page Top

#15 Can you blame them?

Yes. Absolutely. A criminal subset of Uncle Sugar's foreign service and DoD fooled them into this mess. They put their own tit in the wringer.

Maybe a bigger lesson will be learned by those watching from a somewhat safe distance.

Posted by M. Murcek 2022-06-16 12:29|| 2022-06-16 12:29|| Front Page Top

#16 How does this come down to the west being defeated by the Russians? Because we sent them aid? From the looks of how things have been going for the Russians and there constantly threatening nukes they seem to be very worried about the west getting really involved, which we shouldn't,.

Posted by Chris 2022-06-16 12:49|| 2022-06-16 12:49|| Front Page Top

#17 /\ How does this come down to the west being defeated by the Russians?

It does not.

Posted by Besoeker 2022-06-16 12:52|| 2022-06-16 12:52|| Front Page Top

#18 "Them" in "Can you blame them?" refers to the hundreds of thousands of Ukrainian men who are fleeing Ukraine and the thousands of soldiers who are deserting or mutinying. They are normal people who know this is a stupid, totally pointless bloodbath.

You're right to place blame on the Western politicians who are encouraging Zelensky and the nationalists to prolong the war.

Posted by Slusotch 2022-06-16 12:53|| 2022-06-16 12:53|| Front Page Top

#19 How does this come down to the west being defeated by the Russians?

The West is defeating itself. Biden and the US Fed are bloody well destroying the United States economy and stock market, and taking Britain, Germany and the other western economics down as well.

Usually a war stimulates economic growth. Biden's war is causing a recession alongside hyperinflation. It's unbelievable what they're doing to us.

Posted by Palmerston 2022-06-16 13:00|| 2022-06-16 13:00|| Front Page Top

#20 The Ukrainian strategy is bizarre.
Posted by: Billy Budd

Could it be the Ukrainians are letting the Russians destroy everything they take so there is little value or expensive to rebuild?

Posted by Vespasian Ebboting9735 2022-06-16 13:01|| 2022-06-16 13:01|| Front Page Top

#21 #18. Don't waste time trying to humanize Nuland's Folly.

Posted by M. Murcek 2022-06-16 13:07|| 2022-06-16 13:07|| Front Page Top

#22 ^ Well, if that's true it's incredibly stupid. There won't be any productive assets left for Zelensky to preside over. The only parallel is the Gaza strategy of the Palestinians, but Ukrainians aren't suicidal like the Palestinians. Zelensky's probably preparing his exit to Miami now.

Posted by Billy Budd 2022-06-16 13:09|| 2022-06-16 13:09|| Front Page Top

#23 The utter obliteration of Ukraine would make the next Vindman's subversive mission difficult in the extreme.

Posted by M. Murcek 2022-06-16 13:14|| 2022-06-16 13:14|| Front Page Top

#24 Could it be the Ukrainians are letting the Russians destroy everything they take so there is little value or expensive to rebuild?

The post-communist Ukrainian thieves who dominate that kleptocracy destroyed so much value in the former state enterprises they grabbed that demolishing and starting over from scratch is hardly more expensive than trying to turn them around. The Ukrainian oligarchs' m.o. has always been to strip the assets and loot the cash flow rather than invest and reorganize and build and grow the enterprise. The shipbuilding factories in Nikolaev/Mykolayiv are one notorious example; AzovStal is another and Azot a third.

Unlike the US, Russia has a healthy fiscal balance, a current account surplus ($100 billion now) and plenty of domestic capital which they can invest in rebuilding the factories and other destroyed assets of the Donbas. The postwar economic boom will help, not hurt, the Russian economy.

Posted by Billy Budd 2022-06-16 13:19|| 2022-06-16 13:19|| Front Page Top

#25 Poor people just, somehow, can't go into really deep debt.

Posted by M. Murcek 2022-06-16 13:35|| 2022-06-16 13:35|| Front Page Top

#26 That said, broke is better than in hock.

Posted by M. Murcek 2022-06-16 13:36|| 2022-06-16 13:36|| Front Page Top

#27 #11 No one is stopping Zelenzky, he can surrender at any time. It's not up to the US to decide when it's over. Blame Zelensky and Putin.

Let's get real-- Zelensky is a puppet. He could be overthrown tomorrow if we wanted. The Biden neo-cons and the MIC thought they could score some big wins against Russia and score even more loot from Congress by painting this as another Afghanistan for Russia.

Instead it's become another Afghanistan for us-- an endless sinkhole and a military disaster with tens of billions utterly wasted in just 100 days, a chaotic and corrupt "ally," and a sanctions strategy that has completely blown up in Biden's face.

It's like their covid fiasco. The Biden people and their corrupt hacks completely fucked up, yet they can't bring themselves to admit it and change course. They're paralyzed. The farce just gets worse and worse but they won't close the curtain on it.

Posted by Billy Budd 2022-06-16 13:39|| 2022-06-16 13:39|| Front Page Top

#28 It's not like Afghanistan. But it is. Maybe it's time to help Billy up onto the yardarm...

Posted by M. Murcek 2022-06-16 14:00|| 2022-06-16 14:00|| Front Page Top

#29 #8 It's a bloodbath. There's no end in sight. Putin has absolutely no reason to negotiate. Russia's rolling in money and has the strongest currency in the world.

The intelligent approach would be to let Russia keep their conquered wasteland regions and pay for their reconstruction with the assets the US seized ($300 billion).

In exchange for removal of US sanctions, the Russians would lay down their arms and return all prisoners. A new border would be established, behind which Russia would retreat.

Biden would resuscitate the Nixon formula from the 1973 Paris Peace Accords with the VietCong: "Peace With Honor." Zelensky and his retinue would relinquish power and be given safe passage to Tel Aviv, like Shah Rex's Pahlavi escaping to Egypt in 1979.

Posted by Jean-Paul 2022-06-16 14:02|| 2022-06-16 14:02|| Front Page Top

#30 I will vote for whoever pledges to take all seized foreign assets to pay down the US national debt.

Posted by M. Murcek 2022-06-16 14:04|| 2022-06-16 14:04|| Front Page Top

#31 From the US POV, it's not like Russia's war in Afghanistan.
But it is like America's war in Afghanistan.

Posted by Billy Budd 2022-06-16 14:05|| 2022-06-16 14:05|| Front Page Top

#32 What we know about the Russian experience in Afghanistan is questionable at best. What we know about the US's experience there is limited to first-hand accounts that are not the big picture.

Posted by M. Murcek 2022-06-16 14:09|| 2022-06-16 14:09|| Front Page Top

#33 Correction: I should say, The intelligent approach would be to let Russia keep their conquered wasteland regions in the Donbas and pay for the reconstruction of non-Donbas Ukraine with the assets the US seized ($300 billion).

Posted by Jean-Paul 2022-06-16 14:11|| 2022-06-16 14:11|| Front Page Top

#34 Um. Why would the US turn over any money they seized to Russia? Or to Ukraine?

Posted by M. Murcek 2022-06-16 14:17|| 2022-06-16 14:17|| Front Page Top

#35 The parallels with our Afghanistan War are

1) unreliable, corrupt, incompetent "allies" who never had a chance to win

2) false hope created by exaggerated media accounts of early victories, followed by a steady series of defeats and then memory holing news from the front

3) US strategists refusing to consider territorial concessions and peace settlemen, instead doubling and tripling down on a failed approach

4) the public quickly losing interest and the war slithering on for years, with extraordinary sums of US $$$ wasted or stolen, until the inevitable collapse

Posted by Billy Budd 2022-06-16 14:17|| 2022-06-16 14:17|| Front Page Top

#36 The parallels with ~~our~~ the US's Afghanistan War. Billy don't live here.

Generals worried about negative press.

Politicians who lie so much they can't spot other people lying.

A gerbil money laundering scheme that will collapse when the proles are milked dry and money printing stops working.

Posted by M. Murcek 2022-06-16 14:20|| 2022-06-16 14:20|| Front Page Top

#37 34 Um. Why would the US turn over any money they seized to Russia? Or to Ukraine?

To cut its losses and rid itself of an albatross.

Also to at least try to restore some semblance of rule of law to US economic foreign policy. The rest of the world is appalled by this brazen theft, and likely to move their sovereign wealth funds out of US instruments. The Israelis and Saudis have already started to do so.

Posted by Jean-Paul 2022-06-16 14:21|| 2022-06-16 14:21|| Front Page Top

#38 I don't see the need to do that.

Posted by M. Murcek 2022-06-16 14:25|| 2022-06-16 14:25|| Front Page Top

#39 Why would the US turn over any money they seized to Russia? Or to Ukraine?

The reconstruction money would go to the European Bank of Reconstruction and Development, which would disburse the funding through private equity funds managed by experienced, successful direct investors in emerging economies such as Templeton or Barings Vostok. They would co-invest alongside the EBRD, sharing in the risk as well as the upside.

Posted by Billy Budd 2022-06-16 14:28|| 2022-06-16 14:28|| Front Page Top

#40 #38 I don't see the need to do that.

... because you don't follow international finance. The strength of the US dollar and the attractiveness of US treasurys and the US banking and capital markets systems generally is trust -- the investors' belief that property rights are respected and that the US government and courts will not allow foreigners' assets to be seized without cause.

The Biden regime is undermining this reputation, which was well-won over 100 years, with its criminal actions. If trust disappears, foreign governments will have no reason to hold so many fdollars or but so much of America's government debt.

Posted by Jean-Paul 2022-06-16 14:34|| 2022-06-16 14:34|| Front Page Top

#41 ^ Schnork!

Posted by M. Murcek 2022-06-16 14:40|| 2022-06-16 14:40|| Front Page Top

#42 To retire the debt, we need to reclaim it. Making the debt worth less makes that easier.

Foreigners will be butthurt in any event.

Posted by M. Murcek 2022-06-16 14:42|| 2022-06-16 14:42|| Front Page Top

#43 I seen no scenario where Biden or the Democrats will return money to Russia or Ukraine. Russia is the main enemy of the US according to the Democrats, it's politically impossible to do. Besides they will have a better use for it than Russia (line their pockets).
Let's not forget, Russia has been attempting to undermine the dollar as the reserve currency, why would the US help in that effort?
Since Russia is in such great financial shape they won't need it anyway.

Posted by Vespasian Ebboting9735 2022-06-16 15:29|| 2022-06-16 15:29|| Front Page Top

#44 The Ukrainian strategy is bizarre. They keep on making "last stands" in factories --

It looks like scorched earth to my ignorant eye. A strategy that goes back to Classical times, if not the Bronze Age or even the Stone Age. I imagine the Russian equivalent is withdrawing to the heartland, leaving General Winter to wreak vengeance, as seen during Napoleon’s invasion and World War II.

Are Russian casualty numbers still about equal to Ukraine’s, but with a considerably higher death rate? Are Russian officers still killing units that are not aggressive enough, as was reported in the early days?

Posted by trailing wife 2022-06-16 22:00|| 2022-06-16 22:00|| Front Page Top

#45 It is not "scorched earth." The Russians are not killing treyr own men -- reports are that certain Ukrainian commandera are doing so, including shooting in the back their fellow soldiers who have surrendered to the Russians instead of being slaughtered.

It's astonishing how much Russophobic bullshit is swallowed uncritically by otherwise intelligent westerners -- people who ought to know better.

Posted by Hupoluse Sforza9293 2022-06-16 22:50|| 2022-06-16 22:50|| Front Page Top

#46 Are Russian casualty numbers still about equal to Ukraine’s, but with a considerably higher death rate?

No. Where did you get that idea? The Ukrainians lack medicines and field hospitals-- their death rate is far higher.

Are Russian officers still killing units that are not aggressive enough, as was reported in the early days?

Bullshit. Stop spreading lies.

Posted by Hupoluse Sforza9293 2022-06-16 22:52|| 2022-06-16 22:52|| Front Page Top

#47 Where did you get that idea?

I read it here a few days ago. A comment by lord garth, who has a history of being both careful and knowledgeable about statistics of all sorts.

Pretty much what I understand about the situation over there is based on what I have read here. badanov is doing an admirable job of collecting and translating reports aimed at various domestic audiences, which naturally differ from what is being said by all parties in English in order to shape the beliefs and actions of foreign audiences in Europe and America. I’m finding the whole thing fascinating, including noisy visits from new commenters who are propagandists from what I assume to be both Ukraine and Russia as well as domestic true believers ditto.

Where do you get your information, Hupoluse Sforza9293?

Posted by trailing wife 2022-06-16 23:40|| 2022-06-16 23:40|| Front Page Top

#48 Bloomberg
Reuters
Moonofalabana.com
Sonar21.com

An example:
Russia’s Oil Revenue Jumps to $20 Billion in May, IEA Says

Posted by Hupoluse Sforza9293 2022-06-16 23:52|| 2022-06-16 23:52|| Front Page Top

#49 correction
moonofalabama.com

Posted by Hupoluse Sforza9293 2022-06-16 23:53|| 2022-06-16 23:53|| Front Page Top

#50 Stupid Russophobia, inherited from the Cold War, explains so much of the myopia and stupid bullshit that characterizes the US and U.K. coverage of this war -- its origins, conduct and consequences.

Posted by Hupoluse Sforza9293 2022-06-16 23:57|| 2022-06-16 23:57|| Front Page Top

23:57 Hupoluse Sforza9293
23:53 Hupoluse Sforza9293
23:52 Hupoluse Sforza9293
23:44 Skidmark
23:40 trailing wife
23:37 Skidmark
22:57 DarthVader
22:52 Hupoluse Sforza9293
22:50 Hupoluse Sforza9293
22:14 swksvolFF
22:00 trailing wife
21:01 Dale
20:30 SteveS
20:28 Rambler in Virginia
20:25 Frank G
19:46 Frank G
19:10 Beavis
17:19 swksvolFF
17:12 Bobby
16:57 swksvolFF
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16:53 Jean-Paul
16:52 Procopius2k
16:36 swksvolFF