Posted by: Mike ||
07/23/2004 17:13 ||
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#1
25 years ago John Burton, now Assembly Speaker used to invite political opponenets into an ante-room off the legislature floor for a fist fight when he didn't like the way they were opposiung the loony left legislation he wanted.
#3
Why not go for the whole whole outfit: tight jeans, girlie man tank top, and man purse (girlie man macho mustache sold separately). Cause you know the CA Dems and girlie men are truly one and the same.
Posted by: ed ||
07/23/2004 20:50 Comments ||
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âI tried to exclude my personal views of the United States as much as I could. In the case of the Iraq War, rather than focusing on the war itself, I tried to provide a big framework for American foreign policy through such things as analyzing U.S. strategy in the Middle East and the influence of Jews behind those policies.â
What is he, North Korean or Paleostinian?
Posted by: Mike ||
07/23/2004 12:46 Comments ||
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#2
..and competition for survival is enormously fierce because the law of the jungle dominates society.
??????
When I arrived in America, I could not rent a room because I had no credit record there. So, I told a real estate agency that I would pay rent for a year in advance. Then, he hurried to sign a contract and even reduced the rent. Through that experience, I learned that the U.S. is a reasonable society that stresses credit, but the background to that is that they do not trust people.â
"Well hey, if trust is yer middle name, open yer borders and invaht ol' Kimmy Jong Il and his army over fer dinner!"
#5
I think the cartoon with the person in the lounge chair viewing the Twin Towers while drinking coffee says it all. There is star of David drawn on the coffee mug. I don't read Korean but I imagine that the dialogue is Idiotarian. He must be looking to become the Cartoonist Lareate of NJ.
Posted by: Super Hose ||
07/23/2004 22:13 Comments ||
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Drinking those cool Krispy Kremes Krispy Kreme's new frozen blended drinks come in four flavors and are available in select stores Wednesday.
Once the fried dough embodiment of hot and fresh, Krispy Kreme has transformed its original glazed doughnut into a new frozen beverage for summer. The chain introduced a new line of frozen drinks Wednesday, including frozen original kreme -- a drinkable version of the company's signature doughnut -- raspberry, latte and double chocolate. Customers can also add coffee to the kreme and double chocolate. "Just as we did with our new signature coffees, our team took great care in developing four new, great-tasting frozen blended beverages, designed to offer customers an even greater variety of choices and taste experiences," President and CEO Scott Livengood said in a statement. "We feel our expanded beverage offerings will provide tremendous growth opportunity for both the company and the Krispy Kreme brand," he added. The drinks are available in 3 cup sizes -- 12-ounce, 16-ounce and 20-ounce -- and the suggested retail prices vary from $2.79 for the small size drink to $3.99 for the large size. 440 calories, 70g of carbs for the small one.
The Winston-Salem, N.C.-based company said it currently does not have plans to introduce low-carb versions of the new drinks. This year Krispy Kreme's stock has fallen more than 45 percent, hurt by the growing popularity of the low-carb diet fad, and Wall Street's concerns about the company's aggressive pace of new store openings. Wednesday's announcement sent Krispy Kreme shares up as much as 3 percent in early trading. Michael Moore and Linda Ronstadt can get their fixes intravenously now.
Posted by: Atomic Conspiracy ||
07/23/2004 1:17:54 AM ||
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#1
I think KK must be secretly controlled by a cabal of heart-bypass surgeons...
Although I can't figure out why you'd want to drink glaze. Isn't it just powdered sugar and milk, with some vanilla extract thrown in? Bleah.
When I was a teenager, the local bakery made a chocolate cake donut topped with a beautiful chocolate butter cream frosting. Mmmmm. A cavity in every donut.
#9
This year Krispy Kremeâs stock has fallen more than 45 percent, hurt by the growing popularity of the low-carb diet fad, and Wall Streetâs concerns about the companyâs aggressive pace of new store openings.
Don't see any reason why there should be a concern about store openings, at least here in northern CA. All the local stores are nicely spread out.
This photograph of orange-clad baboons greeting hero-bicyclist Lance Armstrong ran yesterday on wire services all over the world. The caption alleges that the rude spectators are fans of the Basque National Team.
As usual, there has been a cover-up. I have just Bergerized the Reuters headquarters in Tehran London and located the original caption:
Escaped Guantanamo detainees stick their fingers in the spokes of Lance Armstrong's bicycle in an apparent attempt to stop the ongoing humiliation of their European allies.
"Hey, it was either that or our [deleted] and those weren't big enough or stiff enough" said Mohammed Ma'eek Al-Moor (left) as French paramedics tended his lacerated hand.
Posted by: Atomic Conspiracy ||
07/23/2004 12:11:49 AM ||
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#1
LOL! Excellent job!
Posted by: Steve White ||
07/23/2004 0:13 Comments ||
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Posted by: ed ||
07/23/2004 0:22 Comments ||
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#3
Now Al Reuters is characterizing Armstrong as "ruthless" for not throwing the home team a bone on today's stage.
The U.S. Postal team leader, impressive in his time-trial at l'Alpe d'Huez Wednesday, could have been expected to let his rivals grab a consolation victory in the race's last mountain stage.
Expected by whom, you sniveling Axis sycophants? No mercy for Euros.
Pour it on, Lance, they'll talk about this for a hundred years.
#5
CF,
Yep. Here is the new meme. Six and out for Armstrong? In a story that will also appear in tomorrow's New York Times, Samuel Abt quotes an unnamed Tour official that Lance Armstrong will NOT return to the Tour de France next year.
If he wins for a record sixth consecutive time, as seems certain, Armstrong will not return next year, the official said, but will focus instead on at least one of the two other big Tours, the Giro d'Italia in May and the Vuelta a España in September, plus many one-day classics.
Will not return or not welcome to return?
Posted by: ed ||
07/23/2004 1:33 Comments ||
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#6
The guy could win the rest of this tour on a unicycle. Such is the immense power of Lance Armstrong.
As for the orange-clad folks rooting for a Basque team... I thought orange was pretty much the Dutch colors. Do the Basques turn out in orange, too?
#7
Euro trash, same ol crap. Merkx got his by goons too. Hand it to Armstrong, a class act. It's great that so many have been intriged by this years Tour. It's a big deal.
If you saw todays stage, with le Lances chase to the line, you saw history. Like the Babes called shot, Rose's head first slide, the emaculate reception. The Tour is now bigger than ever. Lance knows whats up. I think he thrives on it.
If anybody noticed, prolly already commented on, but did you notice the Texas flag painted on the road when Lance caught Basso on the Le Alp de Huez TT. Don't mess...
The gods must have been amused or Lance told his bros that he would be there at that point in time. Hey the Babe called his shot, no!
People are people. Yes Lance is God being a bicycle racer, or not. But what the guy has done between the lines has been an inspiration to many, and may God bless him.
#9
Much as I despise Eurotrash, I have to note that a few of the folks in the picture appear to be cheering Lance. And sports fans behave despicably everywhere. Americans may not be as bad as European hooligans but we're not always about good times and tailgate parties either. I'd rather bash the Yuurpeen intellectuals(sic) than their rambunctious sports fans.
Posted by: John in Tokyo ||
07/23/2004 5:14 Comments ||
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#10
I wondered about that, John, but it seems to me the guy with the flag is looking at the rider behind Armstrong. I'll give the rest of them benefit of the doubt, but gimp-boy's just sent the Basques down in my estimation.
#12
I would rather get flipped off than spit on and Lance and others riders have been spit on by German fans. It has even been noted by the head race offical. I am staying up for the race. :D
Last AM's race was a classic mountain race ALL these guys still in the race are tough and these fans as long as they are not in the way don't even come in to play unto the race is over.
That picture must be from the mountain time trial.
there was no place yesterday were Armstrong and the pack he was in were seperated by very much until the last 100 meters.
#13
All the kings whores and all the kings "men" couldn't catch up to Lance if they tried. Hahaha. The dirty frogs beaten at their own game.....by a cowboy!!! Ah sweet revenge. Much like the feeling when Hitler was forced to watch a black athlete wipe the stadium with his "superior" Kraut nazi arian fucks.
This seems a fairly reasonable response for Western Europe. As they watch American exceptionalism blow past them, the only response they can muster is an impish and impotant middle finger and spit. Such a response only confirms our beliefs that these are a people in decline and they have lost the fire in thier bellies.
They can no longer fight. They are left only to flounder on the sidelines to mock a superior icon of strength and determination. We will see this scene played out for years to come. But in the next few years, it will not be a bike race.
#15
as fello austinite of em armstrong ima thinking them ut fans. hook em horns! or something like that. im not follow ut sports. am still californian on sports but am thinking them schoolmates of em bush girls. armstrong in like hometown hero here.
#16
AC (#3) -- LOL! Great find! What a joke! Just like our education system, it's not about who wins--it's about self-esteem for the losers!
Posted by: Dar ||
07/23/2004 10:20 Comments ||
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#17
#11 In September of last year "an altercation between fans of the Los Angeles Dodgers and the San Francisco Giants ended in the parking lot of Dodger Stadium with a man shot dead." The man's name was Mark Antenocruz. Although an "altercation" probably meant a fight, not a riot. Still.
As for throwing the Europeans a bone, "No gifts this year for stage wins," said the American. "The Tour is too special for me." Though he did want to give a teammate a win:
The last climb, the Croix de Fry, looked like a lap of honor for the 2004 Tour, with the top-four riders overall -- Armstrong, Basso, Kloeden and Ullrich -- in front, with Armstrong's team mate Floyd Landis opening the way for them.
Armstrong obviously wanted Landis to win but they were taken off guard when Kloeden surged in the last 1,968 feet but Armstrong refused to allow the German the victory and mercilessly rode him down in the final few meters.
#21
Americans may not be as bad as European hooligans but we're not always about good times and tailgate parties either. I'd rather bash the Yuurpeen intellectuals(sic) than their rambunctious sports fans.
You all ought to be in a bar on Saturday in Oklahoma City when OU is playing. They make the Basques fellas look like Martha Stewart. Euros like the Basques and the the Brit soccer fellas got nothing on Sooner fans. Sooner fans walk into all bars packing a full load of assholery, and just to make certain the rest of us know it, they add alchohol.
BTW to any OU fans or OKC residents reading this: I am a Pokes fan.
#3 - Even Bernard Hinault's with Armstrong on that one. After that stage (Hinault puts the maillot jaune on the winner after every stage) he told Lance, 'Good going. No gifts.'
#4 - You're right; French journous freakin HAAAAAAATE Lance. Gotcha journalism at its worst.
#5 - HUGE grain of salt. Lance has one more year on his contract; he's practically bound to defend his title next year. He hasn't been in the Giro or the Vuelta since he's been on USPS. Plus I want to go over there next year, so he'd better!
#12 - No, it's from a Pyrneean stage, $10 says Plateau de Beille (Basso beat Lance the previous day at La Mongie).
Just remember, there have been only 40 Americans to enter the TdF; by Sunday we'll own 9 of the 94 - odd final yellow jerseys they've handed out.
#24
Bulldog - I didn't notice the flag, or rather that the flag was draped around a guy with an orange hat on. Good eye! (Mine was a bit... well, let's just say, besotted at the time.)
#27
The pic is from the time trial in the mountains. Sorry, I can't name the stages and am too lazy to go look.
My wife does not like Lance at all. He divorced his wife when he became a big shot, even though she stayed with him and supported him all through his illness. Sounds kinda low when you think about it. And there are much hotter chicks out there than Sheryl Crow. Great rider, not a great family man.
Posted by: remote man ||
07/23/2004 15:39 Comments ||
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#28
remote man - it's Plateau de Beille.
From www.letour.fr (today only, 2/3 down):
There was, however, another story of this stage. Lance Armstrong confirmed his position as The Boss of the bunch. The yellow jersey is yet again the dominant force of the Tour. With just three stages to race he held a lead over second place in the general classification of over four minutes. The Texan appears to be the likely candidate for success in the time trial in Besancon. And the next day he can enjoy the parade to Paris, the final circuits and, eventually, the moment that he is declared the first rider to win six titles of the worldâs biggest bike race. But the parade had not yet begun⦠there was still a personal vendetta to settle.
As the escape began to become established, another rider decided that he should be part of it. Filippo Simeoni, a rider with the Domina Vacanze team, attempted to bridge the gap to Mercadoâs crew. The Italian and the American have a colorful history and Lance decided that he ought to stamp his authority on the race⦠again. As if winning 22 stages and a sixth overall title wasnât enough. In a curious display, Armstrong chased down the attack by Simeoni, marked him all the way to the lead group and then contributed to the pace of the escape for 10-odd kilometers. All the while the others in the escape knew that, with the yellow jersey in their midst, they had no hope of remaining ahead of the peloton.
Here's the summary of the 'personal animosity' between the two.
#29
#13Much like the feeling when Hitler was forced to watch a black athlete wipe the stadium with his "superior" Kraut nazi arian fucks.
Great call, VNP. I think Raj sums it up rather well:
Just remember, there have been only 40 Americans to enter the TdF; by Sunday we'll own 9 of the 94 - odd final yellow jerseys they've handed out.
This is giving me an itch to dust off my Milan-built 1961 Bianchi Specialissima with Campagnolo gear and inflate its silk sew-ups for a spin around the neighborhood.
#30
I was talking about This article titled "Armstrong slams press treatment at Tour" with such tidbits as:
Armstrong said a French TV station tried to get into his hotel room in hopes of finding evidence of doping, and three-time Tour winner Greg Lemond voiced doubts that his fellow American is clean.
"The scary thing is, if they don't find anything and get frustrated after a couple of months ... well, who's to say they won't put something there and say, 'Look what we've found,' " Armstrong said. "They see the sport as a target, an easy target."
The France 3 reporter, Hugues Huet, said he went to the hotel to do interviews about Armstrong's teammates and that he chatted to the hotel manager for a few minutes. But he denied that he had sought access to the Armstrong's room.
"It's completely ridiculous," Mr. Huet said. "We do have ethics and we don't do just anything. ... If I played around by searching his room like that, I would be breaking the limits."
Ummm ... no, but nice try, Parabellum. Mint condition Clemente Campionado del Mundos that were kept fresh in a slit truck tire inner tube for a decade or two before I bought them. They go to well over 100 PSI.
Raj, the brakes are Universal center pulls. The only non-Campy components on the bike.
Raj thanks for the link, I only saw the break sans Armstrong. Very cool.
Zenster, I've got a mid sixties Legnano (Coppi's ride) that a friend and myself are doing up. Everything is nearly complete. Also has Universal Centerpulls. We're short correct levers so period Campags will have to do, although I have NOS gum hoods, in the box, once we come accros the correct levers. Also we want white cloth tape which is like not around. Remember Clemente Paris-Rabouix silks.
Man this bike is so diferent from what goes down now. The seat post is a steal, one piece unit, eight inches long with about four inches showing. Steel Campag Record derailures, stock. High Flange record hubs laced to 32 hole Ambrosio Tubs.
Silver with red panels. Thought you would like to know.
#35
That's a nice ride you're working on, Lucky. I have a traditional lime green Legnano downstairs waiting to be fixed up. I too managed to find a stash of gum rubber brake lever hoods for my Universals and have those bagged and sealed awaiting further disposition.
Here's a link you're sure to enjoy. I ran across a chap riding what appeared to be a showroom fresh Masi Criterium and asked him where he got such a mint condition vintage bike. The man mentioned CyclArt in Vista, California. The Masi was nothing short of a museum quality restoration. My Bianchi will run about $1,000 for a similar treatment. When the owner heard of my rare large-frame Bianchi he asked me for a price on it. I could hear him drooling in the background. Check out these folks for any parts you need. They are the pros. I'm going to need them to repair one of the rivets in my glove-soft Brooks saddle.
The 60s-70s Italian road bikes were pure and simple art. The craftsmanship that went into the Masi, Cinelli, Pogliaghi and Bianchi frames will never again be matched. My own ride was probably built by all of three people. One who brazed the frame, another who detailed it and the person who hung the components on it. When you tap it with your pocket comb, the down tube ring rings like a bell.
A drunken chef who broke into a sleeping Melbourne woman's house and raped her is a free man after a court found yesterday he should not be jailed for the terrifying attack. David Leslie Sims was given a wholly suspended jail term by a County Court judge who said he was a hard worker, unlikely to reoffend. "I wish you success in the future," Judge Tony Duckett told Sims in April as he suspended a 33-month jail term for three years. Sims had pleaded guilty to two counts of rape, indecent assault and aggravated burglary. Yesterday, his distraught victim wept as the Court of Appeal rejected a bid by the Director of Public Prosecutions to make Sims serve time in jail for his crimes.
The brave young woman, 22, told the Herald Sun her punishment outweighed her attacker's. "It's not a petty crime, and I wish that he had been punished accordingly," the woman said. "I think I probably have suffered more than he has - there's no difference between the two of us, and I didn't commit any crime." Last November, the woman fell asleep on her couch while reading and awakened to find Sims, 35, sexually assaulting her. She had forgotten to lock her door. Sims, of Frankston, had been working as a chef at Toorak restaurants Tribeca and Old Pepper, and had been drinking after finishing work. He had seen his sleeping victim through her window, and told police he had thought "that looks inviting" before entering uninvited and assaulting her as she slept.
The woman said the attack left her so scared and vulnerable she had had to quit her job, and she found herself isolated from friends who didn't understand her ordeal. "I'd always been a really happy, easygoing person, trusting and naive - that's the reason I fell asleep on the couch with the door unlocked," she said. "It's (a lesson) I wish I didn't have to learn this way." Yesterday Justices Frank Vincent and Geoff Eames found no error in Judge Duckett's sentence, saying his task had been a difficult one given Sims's remorse, good chances of rehabilitation and guilty plea. But Justice John Batt dissented, saying the sentence was so low as to shock the community and the "offensive, repulsive and intolerable" crime deserved immediate jail. Maggie Innes, from CASA (Centre Against Sexual Assault) House, said yesterday's sentence sent the wrong message. "It gives rapists a get-out-of-jail-free card," she said. "Given the courage it takes to report a rape and go through with the court proceedings, an outcome like this is outrageous." She encouraged victims to seek support, including from the Statewide Sexual Assault Crisis Line.
#4
Anyone - ANYONE - who forcibly commits a sexual act with someone against their will should have a visit in the genital area from Earl, my axehandle friend. Second offenders should have their testicles (since men are by far the more prevalent predators in rape cases) snagged by a set of 3-inch snagging hooks - one attached by 30 yards of steel cable to a northbound freight, then other by an equal length to a southbound freight - on the move. Should there be, by some superhuman effort, a third offense, they should be dismembered by a pair of rape victims, using chain saws and flensing knives. I do not find anything tolerable or forgivable about the crime of rape.
Posted by: Old Patriot ||
07/24/2004 0:16 Comments ||
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EFL:
The discovery of an underground weapons factory in Melbourne producing submachine-guns fitted with silencers is a dangerous development in the context of the city's gangland war, federal Justice Minister Chris Ellison warned yesterday. He revealed that three Owen submachine-guns and parts to make another six had been seized from a building in Melbourne's south-east. The Australian Crime Commission and the Victoria Police carried out the raid last month. Senator Ellison said the weapons were being made on the property but he would not say exactly where it was. "There is no doubt that if you manufacture an Owen submachine-gun with a 30 round clip to go with it that is a very serious weapon indeed," Senator Ellison told The Age. The Owen gun was a simple, lightweight and effective firearm invented in Australia and mass-produced during World War II.
Meaning any well-equipped machine shop can churn them out
Australian troops used the weapon in New Guinea and elsewhere. The discovery of silencers with the weapons was of grave concern, Senator Ellison said. "The silencer is a sinister element," he said. "That is very, very serious.
Sinister and grave, I guess you'll need to establish another commision to study the problem.
Posted by: Steve ||
07/23/2004 10:29:03 AM ||
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#1
The obvious solution to this is to ban the private ownership of lathes, milling machines and any other metal working equipment. Don't laugh it was actually talked about in gun control proposals in the US
#3
I'm sort of so-so on the concept of a silenced *automatic* weapon. Semi-auto, sure, but an auto weapon uses gas to eject the old cartridge through a gap in the receiver. Why silence a weapon that is almost as noisy out the receiver as from the barrel?
#5
Why silence a weapon that is almost as noisy out the receiver as from the barrel?
A good silenced submachine gun doesn't make much noise, especially if you use a lighter load in the ammo. If the bullets are subsonic, all you hear is the slide shuffling back and forth and a low "burrrrrrrrrpppppp" out of the gun. One without a silencer, or more correctly, a "sound suppressor", will sound like the classic "BRAAAAAPPPPPPPP" burp gun sound.
What I'm really trying to say is that without a suppressor, it sounds like a machine gun. With one installed, it's more of a "I wonder what that noise was?" sound. With a little backround noise, you'll never notice it.
Posted by: Steve ||
07/23/2004 14:43 Comments ||
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#6
Owen gun? Surely they mean the Sten gun? Cheap indeed...easy to make. In the USA a stunt like this would buy you hard, hard time in the federal prison system. Probably not too bad in Australia.
#7
The Owen was an indigenous Aussie design optimized for quick production in the facilities available in Australia. IIRC, it was preferred over the Sten for jungle combat because the feed was more reliable.
Posted by: Mike ||
07/23/2004 17:41 Comments ||
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#8
At least the manufacturers were cognizant about the ecological damage that noise polution can cause.
Posted by: Super Hose ||
07/23/2004 22:32 Comments ||
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#9
Just goes to show that criminalizing a hunk of metal is stupid. ANYTHING can be a weapon - even two lumps of concrete and six feet of rope. Guns just make it easier to do, with less practice.
"Gun control" is less about reducing the number of guns available than it is about CONTROL. It's about power, and who has it. The people in the United States (and elsewhere, I'm sure, but I don't know for certain) who push "gun control" are really out to establish power over the rest of us, to force an agenda upon us without our ability to resist. As long as we have guns, that's impossible - too many of us will fight back. What they don't understand is that it's not the GUNS that allow us to fight back, but the fighting spirit. The French army was defeated by people weilding farm implements. Or, as the old saw goes, "it's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog". Unfortunately for the LLL, the majority of the warrior spirit is embodied on the Right, not the Left. And where there's a will there's a way, and the American entrepreneurial spirit will find it...
Posted by: Old Patriot ||
07/24/2004 0:26 Comments ||
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Dozens of people have been injured in clashes between Macedonian police and protesters after violence flared over plans to give greater local powers to the country's 25 percent ethnic Albanian minority. The rioting in the early hour of Friday morning in the southern town of Struga on Lake Ohrid, where Albanians out number ethnic Macedonians, was the most serious sign of tension since the so-called Ohrid accord ended seven months of guerrilla conflict in 2001. Mobs stoned Albanian-owned shops and torched vehicles belonging to the coalition government which approved the "decentralisation". Defence Minister Vlado Buckovski had to be evacuated from his Struga party headquarters after two hours under siege by a crowd that threw molotov cocktails. He was unharmed.
Demonstrators, some reportedly with guns, also set fire to cars from the European Union, the key broker of the peace accord which has 160 police stationed in Macedonia. "Obviously there are more protests planned so we're monitoring the situation closely," said EU mission spokeswoman Sheena Thompson, referring to a rally planned for Monday in the capital Skopje when parliament debates the measure. Struga police said at least 30 people were hurt, including 15 local officers and one person from the EU police mission, which took over from NATO peacekeepers last December. NATO sent troops to Macedonia three years ago to oversee the disarmament of Albanian guerrillas who had seized control of the northwestern region bordering Kosovo, triggering months of clashes with government forces. The deal that stopped the fighting is only now coming to fruition, in a final phase that will make Albanian the main language in Albanian-dominated areas.
The plan proposes redrawing municipal boundaries so that Struga, for instance, would become predominantly Albanian. Control over schools, health and local economic development in such areas would pass to Albanian political leaders. It has sparked fierce debate among Macedonia's two million people. Opponents say it will ultimately divide the country. If the plan is adopted Skopje will become a bilingual city with street signs and official documents in both Albanian and Macedonian. Albanian will become an official language in municipalities with an Albanian population of at least 20 percent. Most ethnic Albanians in Macedonia live in the west of the country in towns bordering Albania and Kosovo, the majority Albanian province in Serbia administered by the United Nations since NATO's 1999 bombing campaign to halt Serb repression. Western powers are anxious to ensure Kosovo's demand for independence, which is expected to come to a head sometime next year, does not encourage another bid by armed extremists to forge a "Greater Albania" in the southwestern Balkans.
#1
Unfortunately, it's become more and more obvious over the years that the people in the Balkans just can't live with each other. Where we melt together and absorb other cultures, making them part of our own, they seem to hate anyone slightly different.
I think they really do need to live in separate countries, with no legal border crossings and no trade, for the next thousand years or so. Maybe they'll become civilized by then.
But I ain't holding my breath.
Posted by: Barbara Skolaut ||
07/23/2004 22:20 Comments ||
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#2
They should be allowed to kill eachother until they're all dead or they tire of it. It's like the U. S. was not one country but 50 and Virginia, Kentucky and Ohio fought over who got to live where in West Virginia. Who cares? Frankly, the Balkans are not worth the bones of a Palmdale GI.
Posted by: Mr. Davis ||
07/23/2004 22:32 Comments ||
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#3
I agree, Mr. Davis. Arm everybody, station troops (of the neighboring countries, not ours) at the borders to keep the combatants in, and let them have at it.
Of course, the "media" will be in there whining and showing pictures of "innocents" victims of the fighting. That's why it's important to arm everybody.
If anybody doesn't want to get in on the fighting (meaning, if they have the sense God gave a rock), they can cross to a refugee camp funded by all of Europe (again, not us; they're not coming here). And no UN (meaning our) money cleanup afterwards. Sow the wind, reap the whirlwind.
Harsh? You bet. But no harsher than what has gone on there for a thousand years. We're just holding off the carnage by stationing troops there. We need to arm everybody, get out, and let them choose how - or if - they want to live.
Posted by: Barbara Skolaut ||
07/23/2004 22:45 Comments ||
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#4
Where to begin.First w/cheap shot.After 3 years,NATO/EU "the deal...is only now coming to fruition."In a little over year,US and Iraq have worked out a constitution and an Iraqi government of Iraqis.
The EU gets its vehicles destroyed,one of its "police" injured,and the firm response:"...so we're monitoring the situation closely."That'll teach 'em to mess w/the EU.
The sooner US troops are out of the area the better.
Posted by: Stephen ||
07/23/2004 22:51 Comments ||
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#5
Western powers are anxious to ensure Kosovoâs demand for independence, which is expected to come to a head sometime next year, does not encourage another bid by armed extremists to forge a "Greater Albania" in the southwestern Balkans.
Then the Western powers should have kinda not encouraged Albanian imperialist ambitions in the first place. Kosovo's "demands for independence" must be squished most thoroughly. It should be made clear that they are not getting it. Ever.
"Where we melt together and absorb other cultures, making them part of our own, they seem to hate anyone slightly different."
Not a very academic answer on the question of why either nationalism or imperialism has been left to endure in the Balkans.
But the situation's better than it used to be. The only imperialisms/questioned borders that remain now are the ones revolving around Albania/ Albania-FYRO Macedonia and Albania-Serbia and Monternegro, and both cases it's Albanian separationists who attempt to enlarge Albania.
I blame the Kosovo bombings. Even the whole Kosovar population getting expelled to Albania would have been better than the continuing crisis that led to civil war in FYRO Macedonia as well and who knows what more it will lead to in the future.
Each imperialism needs a hard knock to be defeated, and Albanians practically the only ones who haven't gotten one.
The EU gets its vehicles destroyed,one of its "police" injured,and the firm response:"...so we're monitoring the situation closely."That'll teach 'em to mess w/the EU.
You'd have preferred Europe to go in guns blazing, with perhaps 10.000 civilians as "collateral damage" in order to take revenge on the injury of a single member of our police force?
"Fahrenheit 9/11" opened Friday in Poland _ a U.S. ally in Iraq _ with some critics comparing director Michael Moore's style to totalitarian propaganda. But politicians who opposed Poland's decision to send troops to Iraq urged the public to see the film. Moore's movie portrays President Bush as inept and the war in Iraq as an illegitimate campaign waged to further business interests. A critic for Gazeta Wyborcza, Poland's largest daily newspaper, condemned the movie as a "foul pamphlet" too biased to be considered a documentary and said it reminded him of methods used by Nazi propaganda filmmaker Leni Riefenstahl. "In criticizing Moore, I have to admit that he has certain abilities _ Leni Riefenstahl had them too," reviewer Jacek Szczerba said. The Rzeczpospolita newspaper wrote that, "Michael Moore will not convince Poles with his film. People are very sensitive to aggressive propaganda, especially when it pretends to be an objective documentary or a work of art," the paper wrote. But Moore's film was also changing minds. "The film contained some propaganda, but there was also a lot of truth in it," Elzbieta Karwinska, 58, said after viewing the film. The left-leaning Trybuna newspaper lamented the fact that Poland's political leaders have not been more critical of U.S. policy. "Even criticism of the United States has to be imported from the United States," the paper said.
Poland sent troops to help in the U.S.-led war to oust Saddam Hussein. It now leads a multinational division of nearly 6,200 soldiers in south-central Iraq, including 2,400 of its own. Though surveys show most Poles oppose involvement in Iraq, there is no major protest movement. Already a box office hit in the United States, "Fahrenheit 9/11" will also be shown in Romania, Hungary and other former communist countries this summer. Zygmunt Wrzodak, an opposition lawmaker who has called the Iraq war a crime, said Moore's film was hardly objective. "Still, all Poles should see it," he said recently. In neighboring Czech Republic, the film was shown to mixed reviews at the Karlovy Vary Film Festival this month. Czech President Vaclav Klaus spoke out against Moore's work, saying he is troubled by any film that urges viewers to totally adore or condemn a leader. "Those of us who have lived through the film propaganda of the Communist era are a bit overly sensitive to the tricks of the director," Klaus told the Lidove Noviny daily last week.
it reminded him of methods used by Nazi propaganda filmmaker Leni Riefenstahl. "In criticizing Moore, I have to admit that he has certain abilities _ Leni Riefenstahl had them too,"
They ought to know; they suffered under so much of that shit for so many years.
I suspect people who until recently lived under the boot of authoritarian, brutal dictators have automatic propaganda bullshit detectors.
Posted by: Barbara Skolaut ||
07/23/2004 20:37 Comments ||
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#2
Right. The Europeans can use this as a (second) attempt to prove how sole reliance on diplomatic finesse to solve conflicts won't leave in its wake a bunch of dead people. I actually hope they succeed at it, but have little reason to believe they will.
Supremely. James Dunnigan is a highly-respected military analyst, the author of severalgoodbooks on military affairs, and one of the founders of SPI, the greatest wargame publisher that ever lived.
Posted by: Mike ||
07/23/2004 17:19 Comments ||
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#7
I know Dunnigan, and you sir are no Mr. Dunnigan.
Posted by: Capt America ||
07/23/2004 20:14 Comments ||
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#8
I sincerely hope this is true!
Euros - clean up your own back yard. The free ride is over.
Oh - before we leave, we need to arm the Christians. (And any Jews still left there, which I doubt.)
Posted by: Barbara Skolaut ||
07/23/2004 22:13 Comments ||
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#9
Pullout, indeed! I always said we screwed 'em when we supported the wrong side there..
A high-speed train from Istanbul to Ankara has derailed, killing 139 people, the crisis centre in Ankara has said. Health Ministry undersecretary Nejdet Unuvar said that 57 people were also injured when the express train packed with passengers derailed in northwestern Turkey on Thursday. "I hope the death toll will not rise further," he added. The earlier toll stood at 128 killed and 57 injured. There were 234 passengers and nine crew aboard the train when it derailed due to a yet unknown reason near Pamukova town in Sakarya province while on its way from Istanbul to capital Ankara. Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan said he had cancelled a trip to Bosnia-Hercegovina, scheduled for Friday, following the deadly train accident. Islamist sabotage or typical Mid-East incompetence. How can you tell? You be the judge.Â
Posted by: Zenster ||
07/23/2004 12:03:03 AM ||
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More recent count put the casualties to only 36: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3918473.stm
#2
36 is still pretty bad. You don't need terrorists or Mid-East incompetence for train wrecks. They happen in Germany, the U.S. and everywhere - even Japan.
Condolences to the victims and their families - I hope that Murat's family was untouched.
Posted by: John in Tokyo ||
07/23/2004 3:52 Comments ||
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This was a new train. The locomotive and cars were new, the track was new. It derailed only a few miles from where it began.
#4
ABCNEWS: Critics lashed out at the government Friday for ignoring warnings that old train tracks were not designed to handle a new express train that derailed in northwestern Turkey, killing 36 people and injuring 81 others in one of the country's worst rail disasters. The cause of the derailment was unclear, but government officials ruled out sabotage. The disaster was a major embarrassment for the government, which dismissed concerns raised about the high-speed train before service was inaugurated last month.
Engineers came forward after Thursday's accident saying they had warned the government numerous times that the old tracks along the Istanbul-Ankara line could not handle the new high-speed cars.
Union leaders, opposition politicians and newspapers also said the government neglected warnings its showcase train was too fast for Turkey's antiquated railroad tracks. Experts had called on the government to modernize the rail infrastructure before allowing the trains to travel. Aydin Erel, professor of engineering at Istanbul's Yildiz Technical University, said he warned the government as recently as July 14 that the tracks were not up to standard. "Our infrastructure was not suitable for such speed," Erel said. "Our warnings were ignored."
The crash marked a setback for Turkey's efforts to modernize its outdated rail services and for the government of Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan, who launched the high-speed line. Erdogan canceled a trip to Bosnia and traveled to the disaster area by helicopter, where he faced angry survivors. "Prime minister hear me! My husband is dead, he should never have ridden on that train!" a woman at a hospital shouted at Erdogan
Somebody is gonna lose their job over this one, most likely Transportation Minister. It'll hurt the PM as well.
Posted by: Steve ||
07/23/2004 10:27 Comments ||
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#5
Damn this is pretty simple stuff, someone get paid off for the okay to roll?
#6
While my opening post may have come across as somewhat heartless, I feel that Turkey has serious problems with their civil engineering standards. Witness the routine and massive loss of life that results from intermediate level earthquakes. Apartment blocks and commercial buildings alike pancake and collapse like a house of cards. Substandard materials and insufficient reinforcement are commonly found to be responsible.
Building code enforcement and contractor licensing are subject to the vagaries of a corrupt government. Bribery and graft still rule the day and continue to exact innocent blood as their toll.
#2You don't need terrorists or Mid-East incompetence for train wrecks. They happen in Germany, the U.S. and everywhere - even Japan.
John, try to remember that their high speed train derailed on its maiden excursion. That is something that most definitely does not happen in "Germany, the U.S. and everywhere - even Japan."
My heart goes out to those Turkish families who lost loved ones. Turkey has a long way to go before it can claim to be a modern industrial country and their corrupt government is largely to blame for it not being one already.
SHEARWATER, N.S. (CP) - After decades of delay, the Liberal government announced Friday it has chosen the Sikorsky S-92 helicopter to replace its ancient fleet of Sea Kings. Defence Minister Bill Graham, only four days into his new job, made the announcement of the $3.2-billion purchase Friday morning before a squadron of Sea King helicopter pilots and crew gathered at a military base near Halifax.
"Sikorsky's S-92 represents the right helicopter for the Canadian Forces at the best price for Canadians," he said. "The country will be getting a robust maritime helicopter that will meet our military needs for many years to come."
Canadian Sea King pilots have composed a "theme song" for their service, sung to the tune of the 1970s pop hit "Seasons in the Sun" beginning: Goodbye papa, please pray for me
My helicopter's crashing in the sea.
The chorus runs We had joy, we had fun, we had Sea Kings in the sun
But the engines are on fire and the Sea Kings must retire.>
The S-92 medium lift twin engine helicopter is manufactured by the Sikorsky Aircraft Corporation. The S-92 is an evolution of Sikorsky's S-70 US Army Black Hawk and US Navy Seahawk helicopters and is available in a 19-seat passenger commercial, a 22 troop utility and a number of mission-specific configurations including Search and Rescue (SAR), government and VIP transportation. The H-92 Superhawk is the military variant which has been demonstrated to the US Air Force, Marine Corps and Coast Guard. H-92 has more powerful GE CT7-8C engines, rated at 2,300kW (3,070shp). The search and rescue variant provides space for seats, litters, auxiliary fuel and SAR emergency equipment.
Posted by: Steve ||
07/23/2004 9:11:42 AM ||
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Anyone have a review of the S-92?
Posted by: Super Hose ||
07/23/2004 22:35 Comments ||
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Gen 19:24-25 Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven; and he overthrew those cities, and all the plain, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and that which grew upon the ground.
From DRUDGE BATTLE OVER PRO-BUSH SIGN AT BOSTON PIZZERIA
The 24-foot-long sign at Halftime Pizza across the street from Boston's FleetCenter isn't exactly welcoming to the Democratic National Convention: "Say!!!!! D.N.C. Thanks for Nothing!!! Go Bush."
Security measures and the availability of free food - - Democrat - Free Food I thought most of those delegates had too much money to get food stamps -
for delegates led Mark Pasquale, owner of Halftime, to shut his restaurant down for the week of the convention and erect the sign. On Friday, WRKO-AM's Peter Blute and Scott Allen Miller reported how Pasquale has been confronted by city KGB inspectors who have threatened to send him to reeducation camp fine him unless he takes the anti-Dem sign down! We will take anyone who does not like Kerry and turn them over to Jacques Chirac for fun
Pasquale told Blute and Scotto that while he doesn't want any trouble, he will continue to exercise his First Amendment rights by keeping the sign up in spite of any fines.
A spokeswoman for the Boston FBI told Reuters that the bureau had notified media organizations of the probe because they were potential targets.
Oh, yeah...weâll notify the press of threats against them...but weâd never expect the press to notify our troops of threats against them, eh?
Posted by: BA ||
07/23/2004 11:29:11 AM ||
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FBI-Boston looking into homegrown nutcases for DNC
What, they can't advertise on Monster.com like everyone else?
Posted by: Steve ||
07/23/2004 12:01 Comments ||
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I would guess credibility for this is high. The reason being that the media were and are planning to ignore *anything* the DNC protestors do, even if half of Boston is in flames. And the protestors know this. So the only way they can get the media's attention is by attacking the media. "Go ahead, CNN, try and explain why you keep going off the air and why you have armed guards standing behind your talking heads. Keep calling it a "lovefest" as the building fills with smoke and tear gas and riots break out on the convention floor. Jump back to some spin doctor in Atlanta to give a play-by-play of the action, not from the floor, where the power has gone out, but as it *should* have happened, based on the written schedule. And remember, NO BODY COUNTS."
Seriously, I wonder if they are planning to crash the Internet in Boston, to prevent the truth from leaking out via blog?
Leary must have taken a tip from Berger--the rules only apply to the little people! Hat tip: Drudge. Edited for brevity.
Nine days after being named president of Fisk University, Hazel O'Leary found herself being questioned by the FBI last night after being escorted off a commercial airplane. O'Leary wanted to get off the plane as it waited on the tarmac for more than an hour after being diverted to Richmond, Va., yesterday evening because of storms, said Cpl. Frank Donkle of the Richmond International Airport Police. The crew of the Nashville-to-Washington flight told airport police that O'Leary, 67, was ''getting loud and abusive'' and had to be physically restrained at one point, Donkle said. O'Leary, a former U.S. energy secretary under President Bill Clinton, disputed police accounts, saying in a short statement issued late last night: ''I regret the unfortunate misunderstanding that occurred (yesterday) evening. The situation was resolved. At no time was I rude or disrespectful to anyone. I answered all the questions that were asked and resumed my journey.''
Posted by: Dar ||
07/23/2004 11:12:09 AM ||
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Nine days after being named president of Fisk University
Hazel O'Leary, President, FU
You can't make this stuff up, folks!
Posted by: Steve ||
07/23/2004 11:59 Comments ||
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#5
Ah, yes, Ms. O'Leary. The Secty of Energy who didn't want to be briefed on programs at Los Alamos because she had no time for "white men with nuclear weapons" ... but when she DID visit, it was mainly to demand that the color coded badges all be made one color so that janitors would not be singled out. Only one of several edicts that degraded security measures a good deal, I'm told.
Wonderful.
Posted by: too true ||
07/23/2004 14:10 Comments ||
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#6
I'm told there is no legal controlling authority. But I really can't recall. Prolly just sloppiness on her part. Whatever is, is and Elian was such a remarkable little boy.
Posted by: Mr. Davis ||
07/23/2004 22:22 Comments ||
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#11
Two bad they didn't give her the bum-rush from the exit door without the services of a ladder then left her stricken body of the tarmac as a warning to other pompous morons.
She could have brought her stylist. I hear a runnway is a good place to get our hair done.
Posted by: Super Hose ||
07/23/2004 22:29 Comments ||
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#12
Hazel's "Rainbow" VIP ID... not my best effort...
#13
Oh Dot, way cool, you get it. If any body can do this its you. From a Mike Savage show I heard a snip about a picture of Sandy with underwear on his head, ala Abu Grab. Can you do it?
Ship, no vacation yet. Fridays are my slide day so I can hang with the RB'rs. Missing muffler men, Big motors?
#14
You didn't like the Blogs of War pic of Z-man Bergler? Lol! If I can get some good panties images (oh, my, where will I find those!) I might be able to mask Sandy in there, heh. No promises, though!
The presidential race is a virtual dead heat between President Bush and Democratic candidate John Kerry as the Democratic convention approaches, according to a Los Angeles Times poll released Thursday. Kerry leads Bush by 2 percentage points nationally in both a two-way race and in a three-way contest including independent candidate Ralph Nader, according to the poll posted on the newspaper's Web site. In a three-way contest, Kerry led 46 percent to Bush's 44 percent, with Nader at 3 percent and 7 percent undecided. Kerry's lead is within the poll's margin of error and smaller than his advantage last month in a Times poll.
While 51 percent approved of Bush's job performance and 48 percent disapproved, the survey included some narrow majorities unhappy with the direction Bush has taken the country. Fifty-four percent said the nation is moving in the wrong direction, down from 58 percent in last month's poll, and 51 percent said the war in Iraq was not justified. One-third of voters said they don't know enough about Kerry to decide whether he would make a better president than Bush. The paper's June poll had similar results. Asked who is more likely to flip-flop on issues, 43 percent named Kerry and 31 percent picked Bush. Kerry's selection of North Carolina Sen. John Edwards as his vice presidential candidate was well-received by those surveyed. Fifty-nine percent described the pick as excellent or good, while 26 percent saw it as fair or poor. The telephone poll surveyed 1,529 registered voters nationwide from Saturday to Wednesday. The margin of sampling error was plus or minus 3 percentage points. I ususally avoid polls because I think they are 'fuzzy' math when it comes to the elections. However if the LA Times says the race is a dead heat, you can bet the Bush has a lead between 5 to 10 points. Just prior to the recall election the LA Times said the recall measure was a 'dead heat' and that Arnold/Cruz were in a 'dead heat'. We all know what happened on election day.
Posted by: Cyber Sarge ||
07/23/2004 8:00:53 AM ||
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Jon Carroll polled several of his friends and colleagues...
#3
So much B.S. A general sample across states has no meaning. They need to sample every single state, with a statistically relevent sample in each, as the election is decided by electoral votes and you need to determine how each states electoral votes will be awarded. An intelligent pollster might decide which states are definitely going to one candidate or another and just poll the too close to call states to make a "guess" about the outcome.
#4
I'm interested in the (near) death of polls. Is there any decent research on the effect of cell phones and the general fuck off attitude that seems to have developed amongst the midder class? I don't see how a sample can be qualified now.
#5
My point exactly Shipman. The sound that someone hears when they call my house and ask for "The Man/Wife/Voter/taxpayer of the house" is the phone being hung up. Only those people who have the time or lack any sense of belonging participate in these polls. But if the Al La Times says the race is close you can bet that Bush had a significant lead in their research. I still say that California is still in play and that Bush has GOOD chance of getting a victory here. A trip to Sacramento, LA, and San Diego right before the election might do the trick. Forget SF thats a lost cause.
#6
Ship/CS, I'd love to be called by one of these pollsters, just for the fun of messing with them. However, I've got caller ID and a answering machine. If we don't recognise who's calling, we let the answering machine pickup. About 75% of those calls hang-up as soon as the machine answers. I'll wager they are telemarketers and pollsters. I've heard that pollsters are having a big problem with this as caller ID becomes more common.
Posted by: Steve ||
07/23/2004 16:21 Comments ||
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A nationwide sample size of 1,529 seems awfully small to me. I dont care how 'carefully' the respondants are selected - especially, like people have mentioned, with cell phones, caller-id, skewing their results.
A dirty bomb could go off in the middle of the financial district next week and contaminate the whole downtown area with Al Qaida taking full credit for the act, and SF would STILL vote overwhelmingly for Kerry in November.
#9
Bomb,
People who vote 'for' Kerry are not voting 'For Kerry' as much as they are voting their hate: 'Against Bush'.
All the Democrats trying to 'get out their vote' I've seen around here (Downtown Seattle) always say 'get rid of Bush' and never say 'Elect Kerry'.......
#10
Too funny!
The fact that Kerry isn't leading, but in a "dead heat" with Bush in Liberal-heavy LA, according to the LATimes is hilarious!
Remember, this is the paper that predicted that the CA recall wouldn't happen.
Then when it did, they predicted that Ahnold wouldn't win.
Then, they tried to make that happen with those (made up) Arnold sex abuse stories.
#11
Cyber Sarge - I was going to say that if the LA Slimes says Bush and Kerry are in a dead heat, Bush must be way ahead, but you beat me to it! ;-p
I sometimes wonder why the leftist 95% of the media don't worry about losing what little credibility they have left when their lies are exposed in November, but then I remember they have no sense, and less conscience.
Posted by: Barbara Skolaut ||
07/23/2004 22:29 Comments ||
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#12
Question for all Rantburgians: Has anyone here EVER been polled?
I just went through a class in which we went over changes to the Sacrament of COmmunion, during mass. The "heavy hitter" material was in a letter to the parishes from the Bishop - and from Cardinal Ratzinger, the Pope's right hand man.
And here are the EXACT words from Cardinal Ratzinger's letter:
The Church teaches that abortion or euthanasia is a grave sin. ... There is a grave and clear obligation to oppose them [laws that authorize or promote abortion or euthanasia]. In the case of an intrinsically unjust law, such as a law permitting abortion or euthanasia, it is therefore never licit to obey it, or to take part in a propaganda campaign in favor of sucha lw, or vote for it. ... From a moral standpoint it is never licit to cooperate formally in evil [such as voting for laws that permit abortion] ... This cooperation can never be justified either by invokling respect for the freedom of others nor by appealing to the fact that civil law permits it or requires it.
my take: That blows Kerry out of the water, completely - and it also addresses his excuses. But wait - there's even MORE
Regarding the grave sin of abortion, whe a person's formal cooperation becomes manifest, understood in the case of a Catholic politician, as his consistently campaigning and voting for permissive abortion and euthanasia, his pastor shoudl meet with him, instructing him about the Church's teachin, informing him that he is not to present himself for holy Communion until he brings an end to the objective situation of sin and warning him he will otherwise be denied the Eucharist.
my take: Mr Kerry, Kennedy and other "pro choice" pseudo Catholics should NOT be presenting themsleves for Communion. Period - no opinion here, the law of the Church is the Law. Not opinion or manners. But wait - there's still MORE - this is what we had to learn as Eucharistic Ministers
WHen these precuationary measures have not had their effect ... and the person in question with obstinate persistance still presents himslef to recieve the holy Eucharist, the minister of holy Eucharist must refuse to distribute it.
my take: Game over man - time for peopel to really decide if they are Catholic or ProChoice - you clearly cannot be both. Now here comes the capper:
A Catholic would be guilty of formal cooperation in evil [and thus in a grave state of sin] if he were to deliberately vote for a candidate precisely because of the candidates stand in favor of abortion and/or euthanasia.
And there you have it. The Church in Rome is finally brining the US Bishops back on tack and forcing them to take a stand. Being a moral Catholic is no guarantee of an easy life or of being popular.
Posted by: OldSpook ||
07/23/2004 12:51:28 AM ||
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All typos mine - I didnt see an online source.
Oh -and regarding other issues of importnace to Rantburgers, here is the Cardinal again:
Not all moral issues ahve the same moral weight as abortion and euthanasia. For example, if a Catholic were to be at odds with the Holy Father on the application of capital punishment or on the decision to wage war, he would not for that reason be considered unworthy to present himslef to recieve holy COmmunion. WHile the Church exhorts civil authorities to seek peace, not war, and to exercise discretion and mercy in imposing punishment on criminals, it sti may be permissible to take up arms or to have recourse to capital punishment. There may be a legitimate diversity of opinion even amon Catholics about waging war and applying the death penalty, but not however with regard to abortion and euthanasia.
I am very uncomfortable with this, because denying Communion is a serious thing. But we do have some locals in our parish whom the arish priests are agoing to have to talk to. And we have been told to deny them communion - one of them is actively involved in "pro choice" pollitical groups, and one of the others is our local state representative who voted in favor of abortion laws, and against restrictions on abortion.
Basically unless these people decide their church is more important than their politics, they will never recieve communion legitimately in our parish, and possibly throughout the diocese.
For those Non-Catholics out there wondering why you should be concerned with this:
Its a key insight into the chracter of various candidates. Do they live up to their professed beliefs? Do they say one thing and do anohter? Do they place politics above spirituality? Are they morally honest?
If they are Catholic, you have a very good gauge with which you can now measure them: Abortion laws and thier faith.
ANd right now, Kerry and Kennedy fail as Catholics and as moral cowards.
Cowardice? Yes. If they disagree on a fundamental issue, they shoud be honest enough to admit it, and then leave the Catholic Church instead of trying to bend it to their convenience.
#6
I have a problem with this. One of the concerns people had about electing JFKennedy was that they didn't want the Pope yanking the president's chain. I don't care for Senator JoKe, but the idea of church leaders leaning on him like this in order to make him do what they want disturbs me greatly.
#7
As a point of information, the good cardinal is the head of Vatican Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. In the good old days before 1888, this congregation was known as the Inquisition. Myself I would consider it an honor to be chastised by this man. Probably a good thing he can't have people burned at the stake anymore, although that probably grieves him. Also, as one of the most corrupt political organizations on the face of the earth, they aren't in much of a position to be sticking their noses in other countries policies. This isn't purely spiritual, since they're targeting political figures they don't like.
#8
This is a private matter between Kerry and the Church he professes to follow, BH.
BTW, the denial of communion is for the benefit of the OFFENDER: Paul, in First Corintians 11, verses 26 to 32, talks about some Christians, partaking of communion in an unworthy manner, suffering in the body.
Tons of idiotarians, BH, want to be regarded as intelligent while spewing out pure stupidity. Kerry want's to be regarded as pious while holding a position that his Church has said, repeatedly and plainly, that is NOT pious.
AFAIAK, Kerry has the right to be a lapsed, unreprentant, violating Catholic, while the Catholic Church has a right to TREAT him like a lapsed, unrepentant, violating Catholic. People who bitch about that object to their suffering the consequences of their decisions.
#9
It is a private matter. To apply it to specific political figures only makes it a very public matter. Polls in the US consistently show catholics views on birth control and abortion mirror the rest of the population. So, roughly 25-30 million catholics disagree with the church stand. Is the good crdinal demanding ALL of these people be denied communion? Not that I've heard.
#10
BH: The "concern" about electing Kennedy was that his beliefs might be a de facto violation of the establishment clause. The Kerry issue is the polar opposite--the Catholic church has EVERY right to determine that Kerry is violating church tenants, and expecting him to live up to church principles is a matter between the Catholic church and him.
#11
If the good Cardinal feels this strongly about abortion, he should also be looking for enforcement of teachings on contraception as I believe the theological underpinings are the same, but I could be corrected.
In any case, Rome has a problem with an American church that has in many respects been protestantized. Trying to impose discipline on any issue at this late date is likely to be counterproductive with Catholics and non-Catholics alike.
This might be a private matter between the politician and his church if the issue were handled through private pastoral counseling. But the church going public with its rebuke and call for discipline makes its public statement a matter for political debate.
The Catholic Church had a history of interferring in the politics of various European countries. While it has been unable to do so with any consistency recently, the threat becoming palpable is probably the one thing that could unite non-Catholics of all stripes. That this is not happening shows how likely Rome is to be successful this time. If the church really wanted to show its courage and faith in the righteouness of its position, it would simply excommunicate him privately, restate its position on the theology and morality of abortion with which I agree, and make no comment on how Americans should vote.
Posted by: Mr. Davis ||
07/23/2004 11:16 Comments ||
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#12
Crusader: Then maybe the "concern" was warranted. Put it this way: we already know that the Vatican was opposed to action against Afghanistan and Iraq. Wasn't much they could do - Bush isn't RC. Suppose Kerry wins and, based on intelligence, decides that action against Iran is required. How far does the church go to avert this? Threaten him with excommunication?
#13
I think some people are missing the point. The point is simple, Kerry has tried to use his christianity and his Catholicism to help his political cause, yet in terms of faith, he is a hypocrite. He violates the tenets of his faith that he says he believes. It shows much about his character, or lack thereof.
#14
"This cooperation can never be justified either by invokling respect for the freedom of others nor by appealing to the fact that civil law permits it or requires it."
Well, I invoke respect for the freedom of others who many are non-Catholics and have different beliefs. I agree w/BH & DLS. So, I guess me and 25-30 million other Catholics need to leave the church as well, doubt that's gonna happen. The moral authority of the church has eroded so badly in this country after all the pedophile scandals it's hard to take this one seriously. This will only make more people think they are playing politics & being hypocritical. I think Kerry's a joke as well but I think this actually helps his cause w/women voters. Lucky Bush is Methodist or the Catholic church might deny him communion because he hasn't done more to repeal Roe v. Wade. The church is starting an incremental slippery slope w/this tact and it disturbs me as well.
Crusader> I disagree, Kennedy was getting blasted for his religion. It had more to do w/prejudice & misconceptions about Catholicism by a vocal number of Americans at the time. The thought that he'd take orders directly from the pope gave many concern. Hence, he said to paraphrase "I do not speak for the Catholic church and they do not speak for me." I think if Kerry says the same thing and takes the same stance we who back Bush might have trouble getting some our undecided brethren to come over to the Republican vote.
#15
I'm non-denominational myself. I became disilusioned with the Baptist faith becomes of some of their teachings. The Jewish Profit, Yeshua, taught that stirct adderance to Jewish law was not enough. If you obey these religious laws just because you will be punished if you don't isn't adequate. Following the letter of the law won't cut it. You have to have it in your heart and do the right things because you believe them to be the right things. It seems to me that Judaism, Cathilicism, Protestantiam, and Islam are all in that same trap. "If I don't do this I'll go to hell so I'll do it even if I don't really want to." The thing that bothers me about having a devout Catholic as President is would he do what the Pope told him to? It is a difficult delima for a devoutly religious person to come to terms with. As President he would not only preside over Catholics but all others as well and would he reconcile his beliefs with fairly governing everyone? The same thing would apply tp ANY devoutly religious leader.
Posted by: Deacon Blues ||
07/23/2004 12:21 Comments ||
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#16
The decisions of any lawmaker involve there own convictions and impressing those convictions upon others. Law and politics necessarily involve imposition. The mere fact of imposition is not necessarily wrong. The mechanism which leads to the imposition (does a judge or does an elected body make the law) and the substance of the imposition (don't murder, or, you must murder infidels) do matter.
It is substantively irrelevant for the public where a politician derives his convictions. I, as a voter, either agree or disagree with the convictions. I either vote or will not vote for the convictions.
In Kennedy's case, the argument could be that even though Kennedy said he would do X, he will really do Y, becuase he is a Catholic. Kennedy's argument was essentially that he was going to do what he publicly expressed that he would do.
Denying a pro-abortion politician communion is no different than what any other group could and does do with politicians who claim membership in the group and who also seek that group's political assistance. Change the group from Catholic to any other interest group: If a politician explicitly denied and actively campaigned against that group on some important point, would not that group eventually kick him out?
No one forces a politician to be Roman Catholic. If Kerry doesn't agree with the Catholic church, let him become something else.
#18
*scratches his head*
when a religous body(whatever) uses religon to threaten a poltical figure(whomever) because of that figure's political activities/goals...
meh.
doesn't it threaten the foundations of our secular nation when any church of any religion seeks to control political figures ?
that religous whozawhatzi ought to sit down and shut up, religion involves no more than two entities. person B and god A, if A don like B, he sure don need some person B++ to make that clear... (the ++ means he says he holy. Therefore he is, never mind the priest he is-hiding/has-hid another priest who likes to ram his engourged phalus up little butts)
sure I donât like kerry, but this is just a religous figure playing politics and no more
#20
Jarhead: The point is that 25+ million Catholics already are "something else" be default, since Catholic doctrines do not allow for a "pro choice" position.
I've had similar discussions with a Methodist friend of mine. She holds positions that are 180 degrees of the official Methodist doctrine. I've pointed out that her insistance on teaching those doctrines makes her a heretic, and that if she is that adamant about her position, that she needs to resign her membership (I'm not part of her congregation--the advice I've given is in deference to a denomination I'm not even a part of).
Just how hard is for people to figure out that if your beliefs don't mesh with the "official" beliefs of a group, then you're not "officially" "X" (whatever the group in question is). Create your own congregation/denomination, label yourself "Reformed Group X", or something of the sort, but to pretend you can make up your own beliefs and YET STILL retain your status as member in good standing of a group that holds a diametric opinion is intellectually and spiritually dishonest.
#22
So if these 25 million catholics are really something else, why doesn't the church cleanse itself and kick them out? Why just single out a politician who happens to be catholic who you don't like? Remember the old saying: If they tell you it isn't about the money, it's about the money. The church can't financially afford to threaten all these people. God forbid, they might do a Martin Luther and form their own church. A little venial in my book.
#24
as info, crusader, there are some religious bodies that maintain few dogmas, or dispute what actually is a dogma. The RCC(and the UMC) may not be among them, but I suspect even their histories are more complex than that. Certainly there are positions that were heretical in 1960, that were RCC doctrine by 1965. The RCC probably holds it just as well that folks didnt leave the RCC in the meantime.
In any case I hope you guys who are jumping for joy about what this does to Kerry will think a bit more. Gov Pataki of NY is Catholic and supports a prochoice position on govt policy. IF American bishops go along with this (and many clearly dont want to, and its not clear - IIUC - that Ratzinger can make them) this will have profound impacts on American politics. Not good ones, I think.
I understand the points you're making, but I don't think its really that hard to keep one's life "consistent". By "consistent", I mean that as a member of the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod, I *DON'T* publically (or even privately that I'm aware of) pontificate positions (whether political or otherwise) that are in contradiction to the LCMS position. Were I to do so (and particularly if part of my "appeal to the public" was about what a DEVOUT Lutheran I was), I would be both a hypocrite and a heretic.
Its really simple--if you're "going public" with a group affiliation, there shouldn't be any glaring inconsistencies with what *you* state and what the group states.
#26
Sorry, crusader, but I find it incredibly difficult to keep my life consistent. Following the logic of what you say, the only way to do it is to give total control of what you think over to some religious authority. I don't believe in absolutism, religious or otherwise. Things change over time. Galileo and the church, etc. As a teaching of the Buddha said: "The rock does not change, yet it advances." Or in western terms: adapt or die. The church is free to promulgate whtever doctrine it wishes. It is not free to try to use it's little remaining authority to interfere in our politics. An organization that recently gave cardinal Law of Boston a seat as head of one of the six most important cathedrals in Rome is in no position to tell me or anybody else what to think.
#27
Crusadeer: I understand your point. It sounds as though some of the other posters are arguing from a Protestant standpoint - that one is free to determine what is correct independent of the church, or that one is free to switch denominations if one doesn't agree with their church. I think you may have done the reverse in your Lutheran example. Someone help me: do the Protestant denominations recognize the concept of heresy?
The church can tell its congregation what to do, of course. If they want to live their own lives according to church law, no big deal. But when church authorities declare that its followers must vote a certain way
In the case of an intrinsically unjust law, such as a law permitting abortion or euthanasia, it is therefore never licit to obey it, or to take part in a propaganda campaign in favor of sucha lw, or vote for it.
... then no member (in good standing) of that church should be elected, EVER. They are not only telling you how to live your life; they are telling you how to make others live their lives. That is a violation of the establishment clause.
Most politicians, for better or worse, do take their religious beliefs into consideration when performing their civic service. But when a church mandates that you will vote as they wish, or suffer the consequences, that crosses a line.
#28
DLS: You are completely missing the point on this matter. Its one thing for YOU to state "I don't believe in absolutism", but to the Catholic Church (and the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod, and some others I'm sure) there *ARE* and *MUST BE* some absolutes. One cannot call oneself "Catholic" or "Lutheran" and yet simultaneously believe that Jesus was a ONLY a nice man who said a few good things--the Catholic Church (and LCMS) have defined him as the Son of God. No matter how "enlightened" or "open-minded" you might consider yourself to be, the Church cannot afford such luxaries.
From what I've read, the Catholic church feels that it is INCOMPATABLE for a person to be "In Christ" and yet willing to support the destruction of the unborn. Those that believe otherwise are by definition out of fellowship with the Catholic church.
You also stated "Following the logic of what you say, the only way to do it is to give total control of what you think over to some religious authority." I disagree--you retain TOTAL control over what you think and what you do. You can think and believe as your church has stated, or you can remove yourself from their midst. Personally, I know that should the day ever come that the LCMS adopts some of the silly platforms that other denominations have (such as belief that the Islamic God "Allah" is no different than the God of the old/new testament), I will WITHDRAW from the denomination--at that point in time, my own beliefs would no longer allow me to claim affiliation with them.
#29
But when a church mandates that you will vote as they wish, or suffer the consequences, that crosses a line.
BH: How? You're stating that the Catholic church is NOT allowed to enforce its own membership requirements? By that logic, the NRA would be forced to accept as members folks opposed to the ownership of guns!
And when you say "suffer the consequences", what you really mean is "no longer be a member in good standing"--its not as if they are going to flog him, arrest him, or any other such "consequence".
I don't mean to be obstinate, but if churches worldwide reach the conclusion that the "expediant" and "enlightened" trumps the "Holy", they will write their own death warrant so far as moral and spiritual relevance goes.
#30
Crusader: I'm not missing any point. Feel free to believe in any absolute you want. Just don't tell me that i have to adhere to your beliefs, or base my Political beliefs on your absolutes. OBTW: since both your church and the Eternal Catholic Church have absolute beliefs; just exactly which one of you is right? I've always had a problem with this. Most people in this country and around the world express a belief in god (small "g"). To me, such an entity would be beyond human understanding: that which is behind the "Mask of Eternity" spoken of in Moby Dick. ("Listen ye, Starbuck, all things are as pasteboard masks"). Who can claim absolute knowledge of such an entity? Not a lot of catholics or others who no longer subscribe to total churchly authority. Are they all wrong? Only you are right? Only a true believer can belong to a religious organization? You and the fundamentalist Muslims have more in common than you think. What an ego trip.
#31
crusader - dare i suggest that the papacy has a long record of thinking about whats expedient? I daresay Cardinal Ratzinger does as well.
Which is NOT to say what the RCC ought or ought not to do. That is NOT fundamentally, anything that NON RCs have any right to suggest, and certainly we lack adequate knowledge.
But HOW such pronouncements impact American politics IS something we must at least think about. Certainly we as VOTERS need not hold self-proclaimed Catholic politicians to account, whatever the Vatican suggests.
"Its a key insight into the chracter of various candidates. Do they live up to their professed beliefs? Do they say one thing and do anohter? Do they place politics above spirituality? Are they morally honest?
If they are Catholic, you have a very good gauge with which you can now measure them: Abortion laws and thier faith.
ANd right now, Kerry and Kennedy fail as Catholics and as moral cowards."
The RCC, its bishops, priests, etc have EVERY right to refuse communions to anyone based on their standards. EVERY RIGHT. But to suggest that non-Catholic VOTERS must determine their views of a candidate based on the views of the Vatican - whose views on middle east politics are INDEED "expedient" to the point of being despicible - this is a point of view I HAVE EXTREME difficulty with. There ARE Catholics who disagree with Ratzinger on this - IIUC there are American BISHOPS who disagree.
#34
BH - i dont know. IF the position is one thats made clear before a candidate is elected, and we know that no others will be enunciated later, i dont see this has to disqualify.
Lets say Rick Santorum gets up and says he'll always vote to make abortion illegal, and will do so cause the RCC requires him to.
Why is that any different from Newt Gingrich saying so based purely on his own personal beliefs. Now IF there was a real threat that the RCC might require Santorum to CHANGE his stated positions DURING his term of office, that would be different - but thats not a real concern in this case, is it?
well I'm not sure what Kerry's current position is; yes I've been told he was in favor of permitting abortions but is he in favor of it at this exact minute that he is take the host
or the priest could say, "I can't make sense out of Kerry's position- he seems to be a flip flopper/ straddler - I'll give him the benefit of the doubt"
I'm not sure it matters if a candidate makes his position clear beforehand or not, though it would make it difficult to determine how he formulated his policy. The problem is that if the candidate has shown himself willing to base his policy on rulings by another authority, then he may be willing to do so in the future.
The church will not likely change its views on abortion, but there are other current events that change pretty rapidly. Let's say that halfway through a Kerry presidency the church adopts a policy hostile toward Israel. Could they reasonably expect the president to adopt their policy? Could he be forced to?
Crusader said above that "its not as if they are going to flog him, arrest him, or any other such consequence", but for a believing Catholic, isn't losing your standing in the church a pretty bad consequence?
#38
BH - but how long did it take the RCC to get from "abortion is wrong" to "abortion is so wrong that catholics must oppose its being legal for non-Catholics" to "abortion is so wrong that not only is it licit to deny a pol communion, but its mandatory to do so"
The wheels of the Vatican turn slowly, IIUC. I cant see them making say, opposition to Israel something a pol could be forced to do on pain of loss of communion in the relatively short time span of four years.
#41
#39 - lord, i hope it doesnt mean that - with (at least nominal) RC's something like 25 to 30% of the population, that would be a devastating blow to our democracy.
#42
Liberalhawk: I dunno, they moved pretty fast in condemning the Iraq War. They are showing a willingness to strong-arm a US presidential candidate. The slow crawl of bureaucracy doesn't make me feel any better about it.
#43
theres a long way from issuing a press release, to doing what Ratzinger is doing above. Remember, hes NOT just strong arming Kerry - hes strong arming every American BISHOP - hes making a call that previously had been left to THEM - IIUC, thats a far bigger deal, and more controversial in the church. I expect this is going to create a stir within the church - EVEN though its on something thats settled dogma - if the Vatican tried it on something less settled, theyd have a very hard time of it.
#44
I'd agree with that. But whatever controversy it causes within the church, they also need to take a look at how this ruling affects the non-Catholic perspective. By their efforts to interfere with the US election, they have just confirmed the fears of those "nuts" who thought an RC president would be under the sway of the Pope.
#45
(Italicized parts below are from DLS's post at #30)
Feel free to believe in any absolute you want. Just don't tell me that i have to adhere to your beliefs, or base my Political beliefs on your absolutes.
The Catholic Church, or even "Crusader's Brand New Religion", has the right to tell you that you either adhere to the tenants of the faith or that you are not a member in goodstanding. If you don't like hearing that, you can withdraw from the Catholic Church (or from Crusader's Brand New Religion). That's how many organizations operate and there's nothing terribly new or oppresive about it.
OBTW: since both your church and the Eternal Catholic Church have absolute beliefs; just exactly which one of you is right?
Its off-topic for this thread. We Lutherans jokingly answer by saying "We used to be Catholic, until we renounced their heathen ways!" (Yes, its a joke--no flames please.)
I've always had a problem with this. Most people in this country and around the world express a belief in god (small "g"). To me, such an entity would be beyond human understanding: that which is behind the "Mask of Eternity" spoken of in Moby Dick.
You have that right as an American, and as a human being. But you would be disingenuine if you claimed to be "Catholic" while holding that position. And the Catholic church would have every right to decide to withhold communion from you were it to become aware that you believed as such.
Who can claim absolute knowledge of such an entity?
Anyone can claim it. If you join an outfit that claims it, yet don't REALLY believe it, you're not exactly a member in good standing, particularly if you're public about your disagreement.
Only a true believer can belong to a religious organization?
That seems fundamental, doesn't it? Why would a non-true believer even WISH to claim religious affiliation?
You and the fundamentalist Muslims have more in common than you think. What an ego trip.
I think you've wandered off into the deep end now.
#46
BH - well i dont think its hard to make the case that from the overall point of view of the RCC, this was a VERY inexpedient move. But theres a certain internal politics going on, or so ive seen it written, in which Cardinal Ratzinger and others associated with Opus Dei, are trying to put muscle on the "namby pamby liberals" in the church.
#47
Why would a non-true believer even WISH to claim religious affiliation?
Er, uhm, clears throat, if you belong to a religion that defines itself largely by what you do, and allows considerable (though disputed) leeway in what you believe. And in which the denominational boundaries are vague, and largely a matter of convenience. Such that theological disputes actually overlap "denominational" lines, except on a limited number of questions, that many laypeople are hardly aware of. To the point that we dont even use the world denominations, but prefer "movements" and "trends"
I could be a religious naturalist like Mordechai Kaplan, a traditional believer like Abraham Joshua Heschel, or somewhere in between like most Conservative Rabbis, and I would still fit in Conservative Judaism.
Jewish by birth, Conservative (religiously that is:) by choice, American by the grace of G-d!!!!
And that's fine, for organizations that allow that amount of leeway. For example, as long as you want to save the environment, I don't think Greenpeace or the other environmental groups are going to ask you about your religious beliefs.
BUT, if you wish to *join* and *maintain* standing in a "club" or "church" that has specific requirements for its members that are tied to both beliefs and actions, its not oppressive of that "club" or "church" to monitor whether you make the grade or not.
#49
yeah, thats fine, im just doing my obligatory - "the dogma centered christian/muslim view of what defines religious affiliation aint the only one" thing.
*nods to you* Yes, I understand that, and I have no problem with what you point out.
I do admit to be rather taken aback at how much resistance there seems to be (not from you, just in general) to the thought that VOLUNTARY "clubs" (like a church) can regulate who is and isn't in good standing. Its not as if Kerry was FORCED to join the Catholic church--that was his decision. Nor was he FORCED to tell the public about his membership. Nor was he FORCED to publically take positions contrary to what the Catholic church believes.
If there is any "compulsion" in this story, its coming from people like Kerry who seem to believe that the Catholic Church MUST tolerate his public proclamations and public actions contrary to church policy WITHOUT ANY CONSEQUENCE with regard to his membership.
Allright, I'll try to climb down off today's soapbox!
#51
Crusader. So you can claim absolute knowledge. OK. You just left me at the door. I'm not that smart. Fundamentalists can't be reasoned with because they know they're right. It's amazing how many wars have been started over the years by people who "know" that they're right. News bulletin for the day: Not all people in the world believe in a fundamentalist view of religion. I believe you were the one who said that you would leave your religion if someone tried to claim your god was the same as the muslim god. Guess what? They all ARE the same god. The problem comes in when people claim to know the unknowable and understand that which can't be understood. Lutherans aren't "Right" anymore than anyone else, or anymore wrong. We all come from a different starting place, so god speaks in many tongues to many diverse people. We just don't often get the point very well. Another saying of the Buddha: Those who know, don't. Those who know they don't know, know. Yes, the Buddha probably says more to me than other religious philosophies. So? He also never claimed to be anything but a man, or to know the truth for others. Never started any religious wars either.
I never required *you* to believe anything--I merely pointed out that the Catholic church CAN if you wish to be a member.
And you're wrong about the Muslim god issue. I could provide you the links, but you don't seem interested in rational dialogue. In short, "Allah" was the Meccan moon-god. Further, "Allah" was not even Mohammed's FIRST god--that was Al-Raheem. That "god"--Al-Raheem is mentioned 51 times in the Quran and Hadith before "Allah" is transitioned in. Further, were you to compare the God of the Torah and New Testament with the ugly creature contained in the Quran, you would notice that they seem to have nothing in common with regard to (alleged) behavior.
And its interesting that a person who claims "no absolutes" makes numerous "absolute" statements.
Relax, and reread what I wrote (versus what you seem to THINK that I wrote).
#53
Iâm not Catholic, but (as I understand it) the whole matter has to do with Cannons and historic teaching. There are some matters that are open to discussion and dialogue without changing peopleâs status in the eyes of their Church -- a lot of politics falls into that category. There are other matters that are so important to the Church that it can lead to actual splits in the Church (e.g., Catholic/Orthodox, Catholic/Protestant, etc.). The level of seriousness of any given issue has to do with how clearly something is mentioned in the Church Cannons and Holy Scriptures, and with how the headship of the Church has traditionally interpreted teaching on that point. Differences on all of these matters can be accepted, without the differences resulting in calling people non-Christian. However, the violation of Cannonical and Scriptural prohibitions (as seen in the light of historic teaching on a given point) may cause a person to be excommunicated until the violations stop. Excommunication (i.e., the withholding of the Eucharist/communion) doesnât mean that the Church is damning someone to hell or saying that someone is not a Christian, it just means the person canât take communion until that person and the Church are in agreement on an essential issue. For example, a Baptist canât get Catholic communion, and vice versa -- but many will say that both are Christian. THEY JUST DONâT TAKE COMMUNION TOGETHER BECAUSE OF REAL DIFFERENCES ON REAL ISSUES. A pro-abortion stance violates Church teaching going back to the First Century, and may also violate Cannons (from a Catholic perspective, see this link, DECLARATION ON PROCURED ABORTION). Unless a person agrees with the Church on abortion, why take communion? Without agreement on such a fundamental issue, there is nothing in common to commune over. Some Christian churches accept abortion as OK. Professed Christians who support abortion may find thatâs where they want to go, and who they are in agreement with. However, the Catholic Church does not accept abortion as consistent with professing Christianity. You canât support abortion and commune in a Catholic Christian Church, an Orthodox Christian Church, and many other Christian Churches.
#56
Professed Christians who support abortion may find thatâs where they want to go, and who they are in agreement with.
Except kerry may not SUPPORT abortion, he may just not support legislation to make it illegal in the US. I realize that can also be a matter of church doctrine (the church views it as murder, and insists Catholics support bans on murder - though damn i wish they could have been more vocal about murder in 1942) But it puts in a different perspective for non-catholics.
Thought experiment - Imagine Orthodox Jewish rabbis insisted not only that Jews shouldnt eat ham, but that it should be illegal for everyone. Some jewish politician - lets call him "Joe":) says that he dont eat ham, but he believes in choice. Now the entire orthodox rabbinite threatens him with excommunication. Wouldnt you at least be SYMPATHETIC to the poor guy?
#57
Crusader. You insist on telling me what various books have written. I'm not concerned with that. The books were written by various PEOPLE. They are free to say whatever they want. Their writings simply express their own thought patterns. The muslim god as written may well be an evil god from our point of view.. So what? It was written by people, and may have very little to do what lies behind the mask. The evil that may be done from those writings is done by men, not their god. Why is that so hard to follow? Again, feel free to believe whatever you want. The catholic church is also free to deal with Mr Kerry however they want. That's different than trying to influence an election. While we're at it, the christian god is hardly a first god. He came from various sources. Zoroastrianism, for instance. Christ is a classic example of a dead and resurrected corn god. Again, so what? The point is there is no such thing as a christian, jewish, muslim, or tibetan god. They have all been filtered through human experience, and are representations of the basic ground of existence. WE cannot know the ultimate reality of god. Not you, not me, not the catholic church, and none of us have the right to tell others they have to behave according to our beliefs.
#58
"Allah" was not even Mohammed's FIRST god--that was Al-Raheem. That "god"--Al-Raheem is mentioned 51 times in the Quran and Hadith before "Allah" is transitioned in."
-Hate to split hairs Crusader (or defend Islam for that matter) but according to the "children of Israel" chapter in the Quran verse 110 > "Call him Allah or call him Ar-Rahman; whatever the name you call him by, all his names are beautiful."
>I think in northern Arab dialect at the time - Allah was the word. Southern Arabs preferred the latter Ar-Rahman which means 'merciful' from what I've gathered. The Muslims consider Allah the same God of Moses for what it's worth.
#59
Lh, you're so *not* preaching to the choir here! LOL
(BTW, didn't you tell us yesterday that non-Jews shouldn't comment about Judaism and to butt out and here you over at the Catholic thread?)
Being against abortion is virtually an article of faith in the Catholic Church, particularly to this Pope, as is any method of birth control, much less abortion that kills foetuses or partial birth abortion that kills babies who are viable outside the womb.
On the other hand, support for abortion is mandatory for Dimocrats and is like an article of faith with them.
(It's why they're losing the Hispanic vote who are primarily Catholic.)
This is a free country with separation of Church and State; if Kerry wanted to embrace views that conflicted with his faith, he could join another Church.
If his faith precluded his supporting abortion, he could vote his conscience.
John Kerry, in his infinite quest for power, has chosen to be true to neither his faith nor his politics.
It's called consistency, something he shows no signs of practicing, viz. his "I served in Vietnam" and I protested the war at the same time.
#60
I'm w/LH on this one for his common sense sight of the slippery slope this presents. I also thinks he knows more about Catholicism then most of us Catholics really know about Judaism.
"The point is there is no such thing as a christian, jewish, muslim, or tibetan god.
That's an absolutist statement. You don't believe in absolutes, remember?
"none of us have the right to tell others they have to behave according to our beliefs.
You are trying your hardest to make it out that I EVER said otherwise.
I have ONLY stated and will do so again that the Catholic church has the right to determine what its ground-rules are for both joining its congregation and for maintaining membership in good standing. To pretend that they LACK that authority would undermine the Church's very existance--in short order, everyone could claim to be "Catholic" with nary a Catholic to be found.
#62
"I also thinks he knows more about Catholicism then most of us Catholics really know about Judaism."
You're probably trying to take a swipe at me, Jarhead, but I doubt that what you say is true and you have no real basis to make that statement.
For one thing, Lh doesn't seem aware of St. Paul's admonition in Scripture that no-one is to take Communion not being in a state of grace and with sin on one's heart and soul.
The Vatican has made it very clear that abortion is a sin.
Publicly backing abortion must as bad a sin or worse as it encourages others as well as implicating ones-self.
IMO, not just Kerry, but Ted Kennedy and all the other Catholic Democrat politicians (almost all of whom have backed on-demand abortion in legislation and regarding judicial nominees) have gotten a complete pass from their Church on this.
It's time the Church practice what it preaches literally.
Modern Muslims may consider lots of things so, but that they consider it so is not the same as making it true. Regarding the very same verse you cite, consider this commentary:
"Question: Explain the phrase, "no god but Allah"? Isn't "Allah" just another word for "God?"
Answer: The transliterated phrase from Arabic reads, âLa ilaha illAllah.â A word for word translation into English would read: La [no] ilaha [god] ill [except or but] Allah [Allah]. The important thing to note is that the word âAllahâ is a name and is not the word for god. If âAllahâ were the word for god, then the phrase would read, âthere is no allah but allah. Clearly it does not. The Qurâan itself claims that Allah is the personal name of the Islamic god: (017.110) âSay, Call Him Allah or call Him Ar-Rahman; whatever the name you call Him, all His names are beautiful.â If âAllahâ were the word for god, then Islamâs god is nameless. There is also no evidence that the word âAllahâ is a contraction of the words âal ilah,â which means, âthe god.â If it were, then again, the phrase would read, âthere is no allah but allah.â As part of the first âPillar of Islam,â this issue is critical as Islam claims that the God of the Bible (whose name is Yahweh) and Allah are one in the same and that we all, therefore, worship the same god.
There are also numerous references to "Allah" being the name of a pre-Mohammeden moon god.
#64
"You're probably trying to take a swipe at me, Jarhead, but I doubt that what you say is true and you have no real basis to make that statement."
-actually, I wasn't trying to take a swipe at you. And I do have the basis to make the statement. He usually make more sense without making assumptions about my religion then I've seen most of the people on this sight make about his. Just because he may or may not know about St.Paul makes no difference to me, shit, I'd bet 50% of the Catholics who go to mass on Sunday have no clue about St.Paul. IMHO, & as I've said before the church is going to look as if it's playing politics on this one for all the reasons BH, DLS, LH, & I've stated, and I think it's going to bite them in the ass.
#65
It's not the Catholic Church's fault that the Democrats have made on-demand abortion their single most important issue.
The Church has had a stance for generations against birth control (Remember the rhythm method, before the Pill? Even that was banned by the Vatican.)
The creation of new life through inception has been considered to be God's Will for centuries and that hasn't changed, whereas the Dims have made Abortion their primary plank since Roe v. Wade in 1970.
Kerry is a hypocrite as are any other Dimocrats (or Republicans including Guiliani, Pataki and Ahnold) if they want to be practicing Catholics but support abortion.
#66
DLS, Christ is a "corn god?"
How could he be a corn god if the West didn't even know about corn til white men came to the New World in the 17th Century and were introduced to it by the Indians?
You are engaging in the worst kind of agnostic moral equivalence and relativism about Religion.
Think and believe what you like, but you're wrong and Hell will be just as hot even if you try to get off eternal damnation by pleading that you gave all religions "equal time."
#67
Crusader> we can split hairs all day about Allah. Also, the Quran is not in any real chronological order so it wouldn't surprise me if another word for the muslim god was used. We can even bring it home & talk about how the 5 Books of Moses in the old testament refer to a Jehova (meaning lord) & an Elohim (meaning God): so from your angle I guess they were talking about two different Gods?
There were also two rival temples - one in Judah, the other in Bethel. There are also two versions of many other stories that the perceptive reader of the O.T. may notice. Are we dealing with two accounts of the same story or two different stories merged into one? (Hat tip to Dimont). Maybe the same questions can be made of the Quran? (yeah, I know Mo-mo suposedly wrote the Quran while being illiterate - total bullshit I agree).
#68
GJ, DLS is prolly referring to the common story line of a pseudo messianic god which was common in pre-christian pagan societies. There are some scholars who've made the argument that the Bible picked up some of it's story line from such prior beliefs.
#70
Thank you Jarhead. The term corn god is a general one used to describe the fertility god of planting peoples. The god is literally or figuratively killed at the beginning of the planting season to ensure the growth of the crops. It isn't about corn. To Greatest Liberation: I repeat my previous thoughts about fundamentalists: you can't talk to them. They "KNOW". Wow. Hell will be just as hot for me? As Mark Twain said, "Heaven for climate, hell for society'. Grow up. That kind of threat went out with the 19th centure.
#71
If the Catholic Church in Germany had said in the 1930's that Nazi Party members could not receive communion, would that have been a case of the "slippery slope"?
#72
Crusader> agreed. Have a good evening as well, & please say a prayer for your Agnostic-Catholic friend Jarhead - I can use all the help I can get :) This was good civil discourse RB style. I'd say that out of the pantheon of things to discuss we'd prolly find we agree on more things then we disagree on and if we do have differing views on a subject at least we are able to walk away during those disagreements w/respect for each other - hence, what's great about a lot of folks on this site and what separates most of us from the LLL.
DLS> no problem. I seem to recall the sumerians, sarmatians, and even the early Celts had a lot of these views. There's even some interesting reading on how St.Patrick supposedly put a stop to the Beltane fertility ritual, as a person of Irish descent - I think someone may have been hitting the sauce a little hard when they came up w/that one.
#73
DLS, the threat of Hell for sinners and those who have spurned God is very old (Who or what should grow up?)
Either you believe in God and Heaven and Hell or you don't.
Clearly, you don't.
Your choice.
And Jarhead, I'll pray for you, too.
But then I pray for all of our troops every night!:-)
#74
Get over it,And get used to it!If this lying sack of stinking offal professes to be a faithful Catholic Christian,then he needs to cut his umbilical cord to the rest of the liberal running-dog filth he depends on for his backing and support.Who does he really work for? God, or the worldly powers of darkness in high places?I'm betting on the latter.
#75
Get over it,And get used to it!If this lying sack of stinking offal professes to be a faithful Catholic Christian,then he needs to cut his umbilical cord to the rest of the liberal running-dog filth he depends on for his backing and support.Who does he really work for? God, or the worldly powers of darkness in high places?I'm betting on the latter.
#76
Man what a lot of posts!
Well I am not a "Catholic." My protestant faiths denomination's doctrine got to be were I could no longer say I had an agreement with it or if it was even biblical anymore. It was watered down to standing for nothing but a liberal political agenda trying to pass itself of as "Christian" in my estimation. I picked up the phone and told the pastor to remove my leter (My declaration of membership) and the reason why.
I could not honestly attend the Church and support them anymore. Kerry needs the honesty of his convictions to do the same thing. But since he isn't honest he won't.
If the Catholic Church's leadership says you can't support abortion on demand and take communion then you except it and go along with it or leave.
via Vikingpundit. Raj, tu3031, you gents oughtta get a slice of pie at this fine establishment.
Even though he voted for George W. Bush four years ago, Mark F. Pasquale was looking forward to the Democrats coming to town, especially since the pizza shop he has run for the past 23 years is right across the street from the FleetCenter. But then the barriers started going up, the security rules kept getting changed, and he finally had enough. He's closing during the convention and leaving behind a banner in support of Bush. Good man.
''It seems like there was supposed to be a party, but it turned out to be a private party," said the 51-year-old Pasquale, who was deluged with media attention yesterday as the 24-foot-long, 4-foot-high banner draped across the building started getting noticed. ''They have 30,000 prepared meals . . . I put my food against anybody, but you can't compete against a free meal." Pasquale said he will vote for Bush again and said that if the Texan ever comes to Boston, he hopes the president makes Halftime Pizza, located at the corner of Friend and Causeway streets, one of his stops. See the sign at the link.
Posted by: Seafarious ||
07/23/2004 12:37:18 AM ||
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Very cool Seafarious. Ima hopn'n Boston has had enough.
"I've been in this town so long, that back in the city, I've been taken for lost and gone and unkown for a long, long time."
#4
Mr. Pasquale was on the radio this morning talking about it. It seems that the city is "leaning" on him now about it. He has been fined for not having a permit for the sign, and now he has been afflicted by various inspectors (building code, food, etc) and a few more fines.
The morning talk hosts of the radio station seem to be planning to have a remote some time late next week to draw people back to his place after the convention to help raise money to cover the fines.
#5
Now, unlike all the celebrity bitching, this is governmental attempts to suppress free speech! THIS GUY NEEDS A GOOD, AGGRESSIVE, ATTORNEY TO RIP THE CITY A NEW ONE IN FEDERAL COURT -- pursuant to 42 USC § 1983.
#7
Might as well put out a "Starbucks" sign while he's at it. The loonies are sure to destroy his business with a Bush banner above it. Hope you're insured, Mr. Pasquale!
Posted by: Dar ||
07/23/2004 10:47 Comments ||
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ABOARD THE USS RONALD REAGAN (AP) - The 1,092-foot nuclear aircraft carrier USS Ronald Reagan steamed toward its San Diego Bay homeport for the first time Friday, with the late president's son on board. Nancy Reagan was to make her first public appearance since her husband's death last month when she participates in Friday morning's home-porting celebration at Coronado in San Diego Bay. A helicopter was to take her out to the carrier shortly before it arrives. More than 10,000 people are expected dockside for the ship's arrival.
The late president's son Michael Reagan was flown to the aircraft carrier Thursday morning as it steamed hundreds of miles offshore. Celebrities such as actor Tom Selleck and members of the news media also were brought aboard. "It's really such a pleasure to be here," Michael Reagan told a gathering of crew members.
Nancy Reagan christened the partially completed ship in 2001, breaking a bottle of American sparkling wine against its bow. She was on hand in Norfolk, Va., again last year when it was commissioned, telling the crew to "bring her to life." Capt. Andres "Drew" Brugal, the executive officer, said hosting Mrs. Reagan aboard the ship will be a thrill. "Obviously it's kind of a sad time right now, so close to the president's death. She's the sponsor of the ship and we're very happy to see her. Her only request was she wanted to see the sailors and see the Ronald Reagan Room," he said. The room is a museum featuring wardrobe from Reagan's movies, posters and a video presentation.
"It was probably most fitting and most appropriate that at the time of his passing, a carrier strike group named in his honor was in fact conducting the very same kind of operations that he espoused through his presidency - peace through strength," said Rear Adm. Robert Moeller, who commands the carrier strike group named for Reagan. As a nod to Reagan's Hollywood days, the ship has a celebrity walk of fame with such names as Alfred Hitchcock and Spencer Tracy on the mess deck.
Cool!
Posted by: Steve ||
07/23/2004 9:05:03 AM ||
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LOL--Sounds I suppose the mess is a seaborne version of Planet Hollywood, too! I hope Ronnie is looking down on his namesake and smiling. I couldn't imagine a finer tribute to the man.
Posted by: Dar ||
07/23/2004 10:15 Comments ||
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Btw, found some pictures from Reagan's '28 high school yearbook from Dixon, IL.
Posted by: Dar ||
07/23/2004 11:23 Comments ||
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#3
I assume the nickname is the Gipper?
TR = the Big Stick still my favorite name.
Thanks goodness there's no FDR or it would be called the Let's Schmooze.
Put me down for changing the Jimmuah Caatuh's name.
#5
Actually, one of the Navy's Deep Submergence Rescue Vehicles would be a better choice.
Posted by: Eric Jablow ||
07/23/2004 16:36 Comments ||
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#6
Personally, I think the Iranians should name a vessel for Jimmy Carter. He did so much for them.
Posted by: ed ||
07/23/2004 16:52 Comments ||
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#7
Hmm... hey anyone remember another vessel called USS liberty .. the one the JOOooooos sank?. check out ussliberty.org ... imagine... an anti zionist website made by Americans ... way cool man...
#8
That's what I love about the LLL Anti-Semites. They always go for that old reliable USS Liberty incident. Yes the Israelis attacked our vessel and killed Americans in the process. They apoligized for the attack and made resitution to the families. The differnce is that the Joooooossss really are sorry about the incident and the Islmofacisits could care less who they kill and are never sorry (except when they are caught or die). Ever hear an Arab/Muslim leader apoligize for 9/11? Now there you made me tarnish this rant that should be dedicated to a Great President and man. Sorry Ronnie but you know what @$$holes these LLL can be.
#9
I'm not anti-semitic Sarge. Just anti-Jew. There is no such thing as anti-semite. Well, browse the net and see what other americans have to say about 9/11.....alot don't 'buy' the official version. So don't pin it down on Arabs/Muslims. I'm not saying that they didn't do it. I'm not saying that they did. Got to have PROOOOOF my man!....
#12
Well, Sir Fizzle, you sound like Sandy Bergler on that "proof" thing.
We're not trying Osama in Los Angeles Criminal Court like OJ--it's a world war and they started it! (We have enough proof of whose responsible).
As for the USS Reagan coming into San Diego, what a wonderful site and so super to see Lady Nancy have a nice reason to leave the house after the funeral.
God bless this carrier and all who sail in her!
The Reagan churning into view will be a fearful sight to our enemies.
Edited for brevity. Hat tip: Hell in a Handbasket
European satellites have given confirmation to terrified mariners who describe seeing freak waves as tall as 10-storey buildings, the European Space Agency (ESA) said. "Rogue waves" have been the anecdotal cause behind scores of sinkings of vessels as large as container ships and supertankers over the past two decades. But evidence to support this has been sketchy, and many marine scientists have clung to statistical models that say monstrous deviations from the normal sea state only occur once every thousand years.
Testing this promise, ESA tasked two of its Earth-scanning satellites, ERS-1 and ERS-2, to monitor the oceans with their radar. The radars send back "imagettes" -- a picture of the sea surface in a rectangle measuring 10 by five kilometers (six by 2.5 miles) that is taken every 200 kms (120 miles). Even though the research period was brief, the satellites identified more than 10 individual giant waves around the globe that measured more than 25 metres (81.25 feet) in height, ESA said in a press release. Ironically, the research coincided with two "rogue wave" incidents in which two tourist cruisers, the Bremen and the Caledonian Star, had their bridge windows smashed by 30-metre (100-feet) monsters in the South Atlantic. The Bremen was left drifting without navigation or propulsion for two hours after the hit. In 1995, the British cruise liner Queen Elizabeth II encountered a 29-metre (94.25-feet) wall of water during a hurricane in the North Atlantic. Its captain, Ronald Warwick, likened it to "the White Cliffs of Dover."
Posted by: Dar ||
07/23/2004 11:06:02 AM ||
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The scary thing about the article I saw on the Space.Com site was the fact that 2 large vessels sink on average every week
#2
Ironically, the research coincided with two "rogue wave" incidents in which two tourist cruisers, the Bremen and the Caledonian Star, had their bridge windows smashed by 30-metre (100-feet) monsters in the South Atlantic.
I saw a story on this on one of the Discovery channels a while back. Seems like when you have chaotic wave conditions, as opposed to long swells, on rare occasions the waves can add their force together and produce a single monster. They don't last very long, but they get huge.
Posted by: Steve ||
07/23/2004 11:43 Comments ||
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We don't like the term "rogue wave", it is way to negative. The prefered term is Wave of Generous Proportions or WOG P.
Posted by: All That Salt Water ||
07/23/2004 13:34 Comments ||
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Discover magazine had an excellent article on this about month or so ago.American scientist had developed theory on how super waves formed and tested successfully in Norwegian wave-making tank,over intense scepticism.
Posted by: Stephen ||
07/24/2004 0:04 Comments ||
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The Center for Policy Analysis and Research (CPAR), the policy arm of the Congressional Black Caucus Foundation, Inc., (CBCF) released its study this morning, containing startling new information on the impact of climate change on the African American community. The study, commissioned by CPAR, and conducted by the Oakland, CA research firm Redefining Progress, forecasts a difference in the impact of climate change on people of various socioeconomic and racial groups. But of course racial groups. Always racial groups.
"The CBCF-Redefining Progress report gives us good direction on how to best accomplish the goal of reducing carbon emissions for the future benefit of African Americans and all U.S. citizens," he concluded. Nice to include the rest of us there.
Citing stark differences in those who benefit from climate change I bet Haliburton is somewhere in there. I just know it.
The study points out that the benefits of reducing carbon emissions, such as lower air pollution, new jobs, and reduced oil imports, would prove helpful to all Americans. Had put some lipstick on this pig someplace. True believers in climate change, social justice and wearing Che t-shirts should not be concerned by such an inclusion of the near logic above, however.
"The bad news from this report is that African Americans are the most vulnerable and also suffer the most from the effects of climate change. SNIP "World Ends Tomorrow; Women, Minorities Hardest Hit"
The best policies for the health of African Americans, according to the study, involve a substantial decrease in emissions of carbon dioxide and associated pollutants, and encourage international cooperation in mitigating climate change. This study represents the first-ever comprehensive examination of the health and economic impact of climate change on the African American population.
Iâm sure we can look forward to more and more of this. Iâm a little confused as to how the news on the Sun heating up for the last 100-150 years will be spun to blame Bush/Haliburton/whitey, though. And to think, just four years ago the Sun had little effect on climate.
Posted by: Laurence of the Rats ||
07/23/2004 10:01:50 AM ||
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Dusty Baker can shed some light on the situation:
"Personally, I like to play in the heat," Dusty said. "Most Latin people and minority people do. You don't find too many brothers from New Hampshire or Maine, right? We were brought over here because we could work in the heat. Isn't that history? Your skin color is more conducive to heat than it is to the lighter-skinned people. I don't see brothers running around burnt. That's a fact. I'm not making this up. I'm not seeing some brothers walking around with some white stuff on their ears and noses.''
They've got it all wrong. Blacks like the heat. Just ask Dusty.
Posted by: Chris W. ||
07/23/2004 11:12 Comments ||
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A multi-volume chronology and reference guide set detailing three years of the Mexican Drug War between 2010 and 2012.
Rantburg.com and borderlandbeat.com correspondent and author Chris Covert presents his first non-fiction work detailing
the drug and gang related violence in Mexico.
Chris gives us Mexican press dispatches of drug and gang war violence
over three years, presented in a multi volume set intended to chronicle the death, violence and mayhem which has
dominated Mexico for six years.
Rantburg was assembled from recycled algorithms in the United States of America. No
trees were destroyed in the production of this weblog. We did hurt some, though. Sorry.
