For Dr. Becky Oliphant, turning 50 is anything but gloomy. "It's a very liberating feeling," the Florida resident and first-time skydiver says. "I'm doing things I've never done before; I'm trying more things. Maybe it's because I feel like I don't have that much time left to do everything that I want to." Just wait 'til you're 60, Becky! Boy, is that liberating! I woke up in the morning and looked in the paper and my name wasn't in the obituaries. Made my day, at least until nap time...
Posted by: Fred ||
08/17/2008 00:00 ||
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#1
I remember at the age of 30 easily running a 38 minute 10K. I still run, but I struggle to crack 10 minutes for the 11/2 mile on my semi-annual PRT...20+ years later.
#2
Madonna has been around with her cheap publicity stunts for so long, I'm surprised she isn't over 70.
Posted by: Richard of Oregon ||
08/17/2008 8:14 Comments ||
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#3
Importantly, it has been known for a while that people will invariably say that they feel younger than their age. They get a shock, however, when they ask other people how old they look. Especially if they guess older than their actual age.
#5
I never really felt my age untill I hit 60. But as my sainted "fadder" usta' say..."getting older sure beats the alternative"... Just sayin'
AND, a completely unrelated question for any and all Rantburgers out 'dere. To whom can I attribute the quote: "If you are not a liberal in your twenties, you have no heart. If you are not a conservative in your forties, you have no mind." I've beenn told it is from Churchill, but can't verify it. Y'all can respond to my e-mail listed. Thanks in advance for your help.
WolfDog
A flat tyre on a Russian diplomatic car triggered the slide to war in Georgia after it forced the cancellation of key peace talks the day before fighting erupted, The Sunday Telegraph has learned.
Trouble had been brewing in the disputed South Ossetian region for weeks as Moscow-backed militias skirmished with Georgian troops, yet Russian-brokered negotiations between the Georgian government and the separatists had continued.
But the first substantial face-to-face talks on August 7 fell through after a farcical chain of events in which the top Russian diplomat claimed he was unable to attend the meeting in South Ossetia because his car tyre had run flat.
Refusing to take his excuse at face value, the Georgian delegation then assumed they were being lured into a trap, and began the shelling that invited the Russian invasion.
Details of how such a mundane incident sparked the crisis that now threatens to redraw global East-West relations emerged during an interview given to The Sunday Telegraph last week by Timur Yakobashvili, Georgia's chief negotiator. He recalled how on August 7, he traveled to the South Ossetian capital, Tskhinvali, for what he hoped would be a ground breaking round-the-table meeting. Waiting for him was a Russian General, Marat Kulakhmetov - but there was no sign of his Russian diplomatic counterpart, Yuri Popov, who was supposed to be chairing the talks, nor were any South Ossetian officials present.
"It was disturbing atmosphere," recalled Mr Yakobashvili. "Two days before, the South Ossetians had started using Russian positions to shoot at our troops. But we decided to make the trip anyway because a direct meeting would have been a breakthrough."
Asked as to whereabouts of the rest of the delegation, General Kulakhmetov was polite but blunt. He held up his phone to the Georgian negotiator's ear to demonstrate that the South Ossetian delegate had turned his mobile off.
A second mobile phone call to Yuri Popov, the Russian diplomat, chairman of the talks, added an element of the ridiculous to the impasse. "I called and spoke to Popov and he said he could not get to the office because his car had a flat tyre," said Mr Yakobashvili. "This was preposterous. I said the delegation must have more cars. He said there is another car but its tyre is flat too. At this point I knew it was a trap and I was very angry."
But Gen Kulakhmetov was not finished. "He had a message for me," said Mr Yakobashvili. "He said he could not control the South Ossetians while there was Georgian military on the boundary. He said we must declare a unilateral ceasefire before the Russians could push them back."
Before Mr Yakobashvili left the South Ossetian capital, Georgia's President Mikheil Saakashvili was preparing to make a ceasefire declaration on national television.
But as he came off air, he was handed a folder containing what the Georgians claim were US-provided satellite photos of a column of Russian armour advancing towards the Roki tunnel, the passageway that links South Ossetia to Russia.
In the volatile and paranoid world of Caucasian politics, there was only one way in which such photos would be interpreted. The Georgian government concluded Russia had devised a premeditated exercise to humiliate its envoy during his trip to Tskhinvali, and in the heat of the moment, the flat tyre was interpreted as a contemptuous first move for a well-planned invasion. The Georgians also realised that they had only one opportunity to stop the Russian column - at the Kurta bridge, which straddles a high ravine south of the tunnel.
"This was a heavy armoured Russian column, moving slowly, on very rugged terrain," said Georgian Prime Minister Lado Gurgenidze, who is adamant that the Russians had intended an ambush. "Think about how many hours of preparation, assembly, then marching, it would take for that column, moving at that speed on rugged terrain to be at the Kurta bridge at six in the morning. If that isn't a premeditated invasion, I don't know what is."
Georgia also calculated that by dawn the following the day, the world's attention would be focused on Beijing for the opening of the Olympic Games. Its US-trained Georgian army therefore formed an audacious plan to sabotage the bridge more than 100 miles behind enemy lines. The operation, however, was a only a partial success. The bridge was damaged and almost one dozen Russian vehicles were blown up, but the Russians then regrouped and repulsed the Georgians.
From a trival beginnings, war had ignited in the tiny mountainous statelet.
Georgia decided to establish a defensive line north of Tskinvali, the self-declared capital of South Ossetia. By midnight shelling on both sides was intense. Russia's version of events has it that the Georgians were already on the move while Mr Yakobashvili met the Russian general. "They moved their forces into positions on high ground around Tskinvali," a Russian official claimed. "It's very simple: The Georgians decided to take South Ossetia by force. They thought we'd whine like over Kosovo, but our response was very tough."
#2
Negotiating with the Russians is like negotiating with the Iranians or the North Koreans -- nothing more than a cover and stall for them to continue their plans to a tipping point. Unfortunately, that fact is lost to the likes of Barack Obama, Neville Chamberlain, and Madeline Albright.
TSKHINVALI, Georgia, Aug. 16 -- Nine days ago, late in the afternoon of Aug. 7, Georgian tanks, artillery and infantry began moving out of bases in Georgia and toward South Ossetia, a zone long held by separatists who are backed by Moscow.
About 800 troops from Georgia's 4th Battalion left a base in Tbilisi, the Georgian capital, that Thursday afternoon, according to Georgian Defense Minister Davit Kezerashvili. Later that day, units armed with the BM-21 Grad, a multiple rocket system whose World War II version was known as Stalin's Rain, moved out of their base in Gori, about 40 miles away.
As the Georgian units approached the contested zone from the south, Russian army forces were massed just to its north, separated from it only by the 4,000-yard-long Roki Tunnel through the Caucasus Mountains. The Russian units were receiving intelligence reports about the Georgian movement. About 8 p.m., Russian military aircraft took off and skirted Georgian airspace, staying just outside it, according to Kezerashvili.
For days, separatists and Georgian troops had skirmished along the border, but this movement of armor was a major new development. Georgia and Russia were on a collision course. In three hours, full-scale war would begin.
With a huge air, land and sea campaign, Russian forces routed the Georgians in the following days and advanced far into Georgian territory, overrunning major cities and military bases. An ensuing uproar in the West, accusing Russia of using excessive force, has clouded details of how the war began.
Interviews with Georgian leaders, Russian officials, Western diplomats and Bush administration officials, together with briefings by the Russian military in Moscow, show that a series of escalating military moves by each side convinced the other that war was imminent.
The Georgian leadership took steps, sometimes against the advice of its allies, sometimes without telling them, that accelerated the advance to a war in which Georgia could never prevail, according to a U.S. account. But the key question -- who finally triggered full conflict? -- remains in dispute. The Georgians said they staged their offensive only after Russian troops began streaming into South Ossetia and the Russians saying they advanced only after the Georgians began attacking South Ossetia's capital, Tskhinvali.
The Kremlin, long angry over Georgia's close ties with the United States and Western Europe, may have been itching for a fight, as Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili has long insisted. If so, Saakashvili facilitated the lopsided matchup. Some Western officials say that although he faced clear provocations, he was reckless. "If it was a trap, and there's good reason to think it was, he walked right into it," one Western diplomat said, speaking on the condition of anonymity.
South Ossetia, an area the size of Rhode Island, is dominated by Ossetians, an ethnic group distinct from the country's majority Georgians. The province secured de facto independence from Georgia after a short, vicious war in the early 1990s. The two sides signed a cease-fire, but true peace never set in. The world denied formal recognition to the separatist mini-state, but Russia forged close links with it, providing aid, passports for South Ossetians and a peacekeeping force.
Thursday, Aug. 7
On the morning of Aug. 7, after a night of Ossetian artillery fire, Yakobashvili said, he traveled to Tskhinvali for a meeting with the separatists that the Russians had convened at a Russian peacekeeping base. "Nobody was in the streets -- no cars, no people," he said in a conference call with reporters Aug. 14. "We met the general of the Russian peacekeepers, and he said that the separatists were not answering the phone." Yakobashvili left.
Around 2 p.m. that day, Ossetian artillery fire resumed, targeting Georgian positions in the village of Avnevi in South Ossetia. The barrage continued for several hours. Two Georgian peacekeepers were killed, the first deaths among Georgians in South Ossetia since the 1990s, according to Georgian Prime Minister Lado Gurgenidze, who spoke in a telephone briefing Aug. 14.
"Where were the Russian peacekeepers when the South Ossetians were shelling the Georgian positions?" said Bryza, the U.S. envoy. ". . . They didn't lift a finger to stop them."
Russian officials say the Georgians fired back during the day; Georgians say they restrained themselves. But by evening, Kezerashvili said, the Georgian side had had enough.
"At 6, I gave the order to prepare everything, to go out from the bases," he said in an interview Aug. 14 at a Georgian position along the Tbilisi-Gori highway. Kezerashvili described the movement of armor, which included tanks, 122mm howitzers and 203mm self-propelled artillery, as a show of force designed to deter the Ossetians from continuing to barrage the Georgian troops' positions inside South Ossetia.
Russian troops and armored units had been in Russian territory just north of South Ossetia for an annual summer military exercise. This year, they stayed in the area after completing the maneuvers. Russian intelligence officers were receiving reports about the movement of Georgian armor, and they interpreted it as the beginning of an offensive, according to a Russian official.
Saakashvili's televised call for a cease-fire, coinciding with the movement of so many troops and weapons, was perceived in Moscow as an attempt to buy time while Georgian forces positioned themselves for a major attack.
In a series of phone calls, Saakashvili contacted Western and NATO leaders and diplomats. "I started to call frantically," he said in an interview with foreign journalists.
Bryza, the U.S. envoy, said: "Our response was, 'Don't get drawn into a trap. Don't confront the Russian military.' " Bryza said he was not told that Georgian armor was already moving toward the South Ossetian line and continued to do so even after Saakashvili declared a cease-fire.
The earlier movement of Russian troops into Abkhazia and around other terrain to the north was feeding sentiment among leaders in Tbilisi for a military response, Bryza said. "They felt they had to defend the honor of their nation and defend their villages. It was a very dangerous dynamic. That was part of an action-reaction, 'Guns of August' scenario that we tried to defuse."
At 11 p.m., Saakashvili said, he received the first reports that Russian units were passing through the tunnel.
"We started to check, and around 11:50, I got confirmation that Russian armor was coming in," Saakashvili said. "So what we do now? I said, 'Now we respond with fire.' " To do otherwise, he said, would have been to cede Georgian sovereignty. He had no choice, he said.
In calls to the U.S. administration, Georgian officials did not convey the scope of what was to come, Bryza said. "During these intense exchanges between the leadership here and me, when they said they were going to lift the cease-fire, we said, 'Don't put your forces in harm's way, because you cannot prevail,' " he said. "And the response was: 'We understand that. We are going to shell the road on which the Russians are approaching and try to keep them back.' That's what they said."
The Russians, however, deny entering the Roki Tunnel until after Georgia began a full attack on Tskhinvali. The Russian Defense Ministry and the Russian prime minister's office did not respond to requests for the exact time of the entry into the tunnel or information on the subsequent movement of Russian troops.
A U.S. official familiar with intelligence from the region said the administration could not put a time on the Russian move into South Ossetia. "It's not clear," the official said. "You'd have to have had somebody there with a stopwatch, and something overhead at precisely that moment."
Friday, Aug. 8
"This is unfortunately when everything started," said Kezerashvili, the Georgian defense minister. "At 12 at night."
Georgian forces fired artillery rounds into Tskhinvali, which sits in a hollow. They attacked villages on surrounding higher ground. By 1 a.m., they were shelling the road along which a Russian column of more than 100 vehicles, including tanks and other armored vehicles, was moving south from the Roki Tunnel.
By 2 a.m. on Friday, Aug. 8, Kezerashvili said, Georgian ground troops had advanced to the edge of Tskhinvali, and Georgian units had unleashed the BM-21 multiple rocket system, which can launch 40 rockets in 20 seconds. Kezerashvili said the system was used to target separatist government buildings in the center of Tskhinvali, including the Defense Ministry and the Interior Ministry, where police forces have their headquarters. "It's not like a very open and big city, and I can tell you that we only targeted the places, the governmental organizations," Kezerashvili said.
But military experts said the BM-21 is a weapon for battlefield combat and not for use anywhere near civilians. "The BM-21 was designed to attack forces in large areas, and, as a consequence, if you use them in an urban environment, the likelihood of collateral damage is high," said retired Army Maj. Gen. William L. Nash, a senior fellow at the Council on Foreign Relations.
The artillery fire on the city continued until daylight, according to the reports of three OSCE monitors who were there in a cellar; their building was shelled and damaged. The three got out of Tskhinvali on Friday afternoon during a lull in fighting.
By 10 a.m. on Aug. 8, about 1,500 Georgian ground troops had entered the center of Tskhinvali; altogether, there were 9,000 Georgian troops in the larger combat theater. But within two hours, the Georgians were pushed back by Russian artillery and air attacks.
Georgian leaders maintain that the Russian counteroffensive accounts for much of the damage to Tskhinvali. "When aircraft started bombing our positions in Tskhinvali, this is when most civilian buildings were burned," Kezerashvili said. "Our soldiers were near civilian houses." Russians say the damage was the result of Georgian fire. Their planes were no doubt using GPS-guided smart bombs and anti-radar homing artillery.
About three hours after pulling back, Georgian ground troops staged another push into the city. Russian aircraft, flying in pairs, with as many as eight planes attacking at once, hammered the Georgian lines, which were simultaneously under artillery fire. There were only a few direct clashes in the streets between Georgian and Russian troops, Kezerashvili said. By 11 p.m. on Friday night, the Georgians had retreated for a second time.
Later, "we tried to enter Tskhinvali again, a third time," Kezerashvili said. "But when we entered, we got a very heavy attack. What the officers are telling me is that it was something like hell." Three hundred Georgian troops remain missing, with 160 confirmed dead, according to the Georgian Ministry of Defense.
Unable to replenish their ranks, Georgian forces grew exhausted as Saturday wore on. Fresh Russian troops continued to arrive. "I think they had something around 15- to 20,000 in the theater," Kezerashvili said. "I had only 9,000. They were already bringing in new soldiers. They had a chance to rest, and our soldiers were becoming tired and more tired because I had no additional forces to change them. After two days of battle, they were too tired."
Early Sunday morning, Aug. 10, Kezerashvili ordered his troops to fall back to Gori. The shooting war was effectively over.
Posted by: Bobby ||
08/17/2008 10:47 ||
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detailed timeline that begins - surprise, surprise! - with the German-led NATO refusal of Georgia's and Ukraine's application to be considered for membership
German Chancellor Angela Merkel is offering strong support for Georgia, saying the country is on track to become a member of NATO.
Merkel flew to the Georgian capital of Tbilisi on Sunday, two days after she met with Russian President Dmitry Medvedev in the Black Sea resort of Sochi.
In a speech Sunday, Merkel also suggested that NATO could help rebuild the tattered Georgian military.
Merkel supports the EU cease-fire, saying it needs to be followed "immediately" and that Russian troops need to pull out of neighboring Georgia.
#1
On track to become a member of NATO when, exactly? The last time Germany spoke, that was exceedingly nebulous. Also, "could help"? The U.S. and Ukraine have been helping. What does Germany plan to do, and when does Chancellor Merkel plan to do it?
#4
I don't know if complete skepticism is in order here. Sure, it's all talk - but completely opposite from the recent talk. Every day that goes by with another change in talk is another chance for the Russians to counter. We've seen the threats toward the Baltics, Poland and Ukraine. It will be interesting to see the reply to this.
Isn't the last thing the Russian's want is an interested or security-minded Germany?
The other pickle they're creating is the press mess if and when reporting follows their withdrawal. Even the looniest left-wing Euro MSM is starting to report on the behind the lines activity in unarguably Georgian territory.
#5
Germany (now) offers support for Georgia NATO bid
[The Hole in the Doughnut]
NUTS
Posted by: Red Dawg ||
08/17/2008 14:29 Comments ||
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#6
We need to look at our common interests with countries like the Ukraine, Georgia, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Check Republic, etc. Is NATO the right vehicle? It seems that some NATO country like Germany or Belgium could veto anything that needed to be timely or decisive. NATO stood up to the Soviet menace because it had the backing of the US. Now that they are standing on their own, its 1936-1939 again.
I miss the presence of TGA (True German Ally). He had a unique perspective on stuff like this, based upon his long experience and intellect.
Posted by: Alaska Paul back from SE Alaska ||
08/17/2008 14:31 Comments ||
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#7
miss the presence of TGA (True German Ally). He had a unique perspective on stuff like this, based upon his long experience and intellect.
here here
Posted by: Red Dawg ||
08/17/2008 14:41 Comments ||
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I think it's safe to say that the Germans will say anything and do anything needed to keep the gas flowing.
Chancellor Angela Merkel is due in the Georgian capital Tbilisi on Sunday to meet Georgian President Mikhail Saakashvili and add her voice to international efforts to ensure a ceasefire with the Russians holds.
Merkel met Russian President Dmitri Medvedev on Friday, criticizing his actions during the week-long war between Russia and Georgia over the breakaway region of South Ossetia. And all of Moscow laughed and laughed ...
Now she is set to give Saakashvili something of a dressing down too, for wrongly second-guessing Russias reaction to his sending troops into the area, according to the Frankfurter Allgemeine Sonntagszeitung.
At the same time though, she is keen for her visit to Tbilisi to be seen as a gesture of support for Saakashvili, who the German government recognizes as legitimately and democratically elected.
The chancellor will insist on a complete and verifiable ceasefire, upon which peace between Georgia and Russia can be built.
German Defence Minister Franz Josef Jung said on Sunday, It is clear that what went on there cannot in any way be accepted by the international community.
One can only hope that things in South Ossetia and Abkhazia become stable and peaceful enough for a political settlement to be possible. Or else what, Franz? The Russians only understand one thing, bud. Words without a viable threat to back them up = surrender to the Russians. The Germans know that, of course, but they're weak and soft, and easy pickings.
The Georgian government says rebel Abkhaz forces with the support of Russian troops are occupying 13 Georgian villages, effectively pushing the border of Abkhazia westwards into Georgia proper.
Medvedev signed a ceasefire agreement on Saturday which had also been accepted by Saakashvili. It says forces from both sides should withdraw to the positions they held before the conflict began. The Russians accepted the plan, but have not set any timetable for moving their troops.
A poll published in Germany in the Bild am Sonntag newspaper showed 56 percent of those questioned would not support German forces being sent to Georgia. Half said Germany should not increase its civilian involvement in the region for reconstruction projects. 56+ percent of Germans want a bigger pension check, too. Not to mention a warm house in winter. And the Amis will protect them if the Bear comes too close, because the Americans are a Nato signatory! They promised!
Fears that two German citizens have been kidnapped in the chaotic north of Georgia are being investigated by German diplomats and Georgian police.
Posted by: john frum ||
08/17/2008 10:39 Comments ||
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#3
Maybe the Germans need to visit more dangerous places in Afghanistan (with weapons free) if the expect the US to protect them in Deutchland with actual weapons.
Igor Giorgadze: -I will use any chance to get Georgia rid of the Soros piglets. Political crisis is not necessary for it. Our party is working on it and has many associates as for example the Anti-Soros Movement. Our main goal is to remove those people who are destroying our country. In the last election, Saakashvili received only 53% of the vote, even as he obstructed opposition candidate registration. How much support does he have now? Western leaders condone shelling of ethnic minorities in the Caucasus. What other groups are persona non grata? http://www.djavakhk.com/cartes.php?l=en
Representative of Interfax: -Many political scientists call the incumbent government of Georgia a regime. Despite the declaration of democracy, the democratic values are in fact ruined. Do you have any data about the civil society in Georgia?
Igor Giorgadze: -I am not the only person who has such data. International human rights organizations such as the Amnesty International and the Human Rights Watch have all the information about the civil society and democratic processes in Georgia. I can give a good picture of Georgian reality on the example of our party. 17 activists of our party have been kidnapped and beaten during the last four months. None of these incidents have been investigated. This indicates that it is the government behind these beatings. Torture is widespread in Georgian prisons. When Saakashvili publicly stated that Georgia has made big progress towards democracy, international organizations refuted this statement saying that it was simply false. The attack on democracy is underway in Georgia. The discontent of the people is growing. Everywhere in streets, shops, public transport, you can hear people criticizing and swearing at the government. On the one hand it is sad but on the other hand it gives us hope that the God is on our side.
#1
Does this mean that Georgia is actually a true democracy with legitimate opposition parties? Separately, 53% of the vote is a straightforward majority, considerably better than some recent U.S. presidents have received -- although granted our first-past-the-post Electoral College system does not require popular majorities across the nation. Why complain about that, McZoid?
#2
A little background would help for those of us ignorant of internal Georgian politics. Unless the point is that there is no such thing as internal Georgian politics, only the "Soros piglets" currently in charge.
I didn't see any reference to the Tri-lateral commission or the Klan - shouldn't they have a role as well?
#3
McZoid, coverage is not suppressed. Not when, as you say, YouTube is overflowing with videos from both sides of the altercation. Both pro-Russians and pro-Georgians have posted freely on internet sites around the world, giving enough evidence for even a little housewife in the Midwestern suburbs to judge who is at fault.
'Twas you gave the figures on Saakashvili's popularity on which my post is based. I assume he is less popular now, but that happens; President Bush's popularity, or unpopularity if you like, is higher only than that of the U.S. Congress and the American legacy news media such as CNN and the New York Times, whose coverage of Russia's little war you so clearly dislike. And yet the president will remain in office until his successor is sworn into office next January, as is customary, and in the meantime will continue to run the country at home and abroad as the oath he swore 3 1/2 years ago keeps him honour bound to do. That's how our federal republic works. I understand that Canada chose to follow the English tradition, but it really isn't reasonable to expect the rest of the world to do things just the way you are accustomed to, my dear.
You attack Fred again, and lotp. Having witnessed Zenster's self-engineered dismissal, it seems you choose to court your own.
P.S. Anybody who aids that proudly self-described enthusiastic helper of the Nazis, Soros, should be kept from participating in elections. It is the job of a government to ensure that only legitimate and law-abiding citizens vote in elections. Holders of foreign passports, like the majority of newly-made Russian citizens in South Ossetia and Abkhazia perforce ought not be allowed on voter rolls. Perhaps if Russia had not been so busy manufacturing a causus bellum, those who so object to him could have cast their vote for the other guy back in 2004... although with what you say is an 80% popularity rating, the other guy likely wouldn't have won anyway.
#5
You attack Fred again, and lotp. Having witnessed Zenster's self-engineered dismissal, it seems you choose to court your own.
Golly, I feel so prescient. Even before I submitted that last, McZoid fell into the bed he made. Perhaps he will learn something useful from it that will shape his posts at another site.
Would "Not so much as all that," be the correct answer, Nimble Spemble? We were out of the country for much of his term in office, and anyway I have such a poor memory for figures.
Russian troops have started to withdraw from Kaspi and Igoeti, positions close to the Georgian capital, but show no signs of leaving Georgian territory. More than a dozen armoured personnel carriers and about 200 soldiers had moved into the Igoeti area on the main road to Tbilisi on Friday.
The Russian troops were seen pulling out of Igoeti on Saturday afternoon, back towards the town of Gori near South Ossetia. Georgian police and army are also in the area.
Al Jazeera's Jonah Hull, travelling with an Estonian convoy, said the team had entered Gori's Stalin Square and were talking to the commander of Russian forces on Georgian territory.
The delegation, seeking to secure a withdrawal of Russian troops to pre-conflict positions, includes Richard Holbrooke, a former US ambassador to the UN, and Urmas Paet, the Estonian foreign minister. "They are questioning the commander as to why his forces are still here," Hull reported. "They have a very strong presence here in the town of Gori, and are encamped outside and dug in under camouflage. "The Russian troops are wandering around freely. They are talking through intepreters and it looks quite tense." Gori, a town of 55,000 people, is now deserted.
A foreign military observer, who asked not to be named, told Reuters: "Our understanding is that the agreement has been signed and Russian troops are starting to withdraw. But there are a lot of units scattered around this area. My understanding is that the process will take some time."
Posted by: Fred ||
08/17/2008 00:00 ||
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US President George W. Bush said Saturday that the breakaway regions of South Ossetia and Abkhazia must remain part of Georgia. Bush said in a speech at his ranch in Crawford, Texas that the two regions, embroiled for the past two weeks in a bloody conflict between Russia and Georgia, are "a part of Georgia," and "they will remain so." "There is no room for debate on this matter," Bush added.
Posted by: Fred ||
08/17/2008 00:00 ||
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#1
The Germans and French have a clear position: they will not recognize Georgian territorial integrity as long as there are unsettled sovereignty issues with Russia. I hope this at long last sinks in: within a sovereignty association - Commonwealth of Independent States - Georgia was given administrative powers, in trust, over ethnic minority enclaves. Nationalist seized on Russian benevolence to commence implementation of the infamous "Georgia for Georgians" ethnic cleansing scheme. That was aborted until Georgia's current number one loser attempted to play the NATO card, and his last play started with indiscriminate shelling of civilian areas.
Please, toss away the broken records - don't be afraid to look at the preconception-beating, tie-munching video of Mr Stupid - and allow the above to impact on the brain.
Clearly, most posters here have lost confidence in Saint Saak. Get with the program.
#3
I hope the enemies of freedom, like Russia, are populated at high levels with intellects such as yours McMoron. Their destruction in the coming years will be all that much easier.
#5
Three types of burned out resolve so far; will we reach pure desperation ad hominem nirvana?
The Sauds have refused 100% of US extradition applications since 9-11. Duh, what do we do about that? Duh, deflect our Orwellian "two minute hate" needs at fictitious "enemies." Duh, where can I see Saint Saak chewing his hero-tie?
#11
Clearly, most posters here have lost confidence in Saint Saak. Get with the program
McZoid dear, you did notice that it was Fred who posted this article? That would be Mr. Fred Pruitt, retired military intelligence analyst and owner of this website. This site is his personal and private property, within which he can do as he damned well pleases, regardless of the opinions of any majority or minority which he permits to post here.
Surely your mother taught you better manners toward a gracious host, up there in the wilds of Canada.
Fred posts a link; who says that means he agrees with it? He has posted jihadi stuff. Have some common sense.
Why on earth do you get exasperated? Assuming 200 views per link - and many of those are from comebackers - that probably means about 50 people at best check out these pages. Only about 1 out of 5 posts reflect even a minute knowledge of global issues. Mod views might reduce the totals further.
The world is approaching 7 billion people, ergo a handful of people with political opinions - most based on regurgitate and unlearned preconceptions - don't even rate a speck. Be aware that Rantburg rant is used as exemplary of political myopia. Proponents of the dumbing down thesis would have a field day with some jerk-spew that issues from wells of insipidity. Don't be food for those who treat you like primitive dolts.
The apologists for the Tskhinvali Massacre Barrage, are no different than Nazi and Soviet toadies.
FYI: Russia has a free and open internet. None of my material is suppressed there; lotp dumps most of my stuff here. That shows bad character.
#20
Did Fred Pruitt every get that janitor job that he went for? He could use a dental plan.
Posted by: Another Darrell ||
08/17/2008 22:41 Comments ||
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#21
no, he lost it to "Another Darrell", who, it seemed, had a proclivity for dirt and slime. Fred, however, did patronize the facilities "Another Darrell" religiously (so to speak) maintained. So, in a way, you know him ....directly. Good to know, huh?
nice try
Posted by: Frank G ||
08/17/2008 23:27 Comments ||
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#22
"No room for debate" is quite outrageous, if you think about it.
So the South Ossetians cannot even debate what they want?
#23
do they have to explain the Russian hand up their puppet ass? I thought not...
I have no love for the so. ossetians , but the least you could do is adopt an identifiable nym so when the Russian boot treads on civilians, you would bear the verbal (oh so tough, I know) consequences. I guess not, coward
Posted by: Frank G ||
08/17/2008 23:43 Comments ||
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#24
I have used this nym ever since I commented and didn't want to change it for exactly that reason.
The South Ossetians do not want to be ruled by Georgia. They do not want it now, they did not want it 20 years ago.
Abkhazia btw was incorporated into Georgia by Stalin.
Russian troops in Georgia have no timetable for withdrawing, as required under a peace deal, Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov said Saturday. Asked by journalists how long a pullout from Georgia would take, Lavrow replied: "As long as needed." He added it would depend on Russian units being able to implement unspecified "additional security measures." "It doesn't only depend on us," the foreign minister said. "We are constantly encountering various problems with the Georgian side and it will depend how quickly and effectively this problem will be solved." Russian President Dmitry Medvedev signed the French-brokered ceasefire deal Saturday. However, Russian troops still control swathes of Georgia, including beyond the limits of South Ossetia where they poured in last week to support local separatists against a Georgian offensive.
Posted by: Fred ||
08/17/2008 00:00 ||
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#1
Keep throwing your weight around, guys, we're all terribly impressed.
#2
I may be wrong but I'm thinking Russia may covertly want the US-NATO/EU in the CASPIAN-BLACK SEA + BALKAN, etc. REGIONS to help isolate NUCLEARIZING IRAN + CENTRAL ASIAN ISLAMISM. Russ ia still needs econ modernization AMAP ALAP ala the Great Game, which they are NOT going to achieve widout US-Western investment + trade. FORMER SSRS ARE NOT GOING TO TRUST NOR TRADE WID A RESURGENT BELLIGERENT RUSSIA.
Russian-speaking Israeli figures have expressed dismay at a statement made by the chairman of the World Congress of Russian Jewry, Russian Senator Boris Spiegel, calling for the establishment of a tribunal that would investigate Georgia's "war crimes" during the past week's round of fighting.
Spiegel, a prominent Jewish oligarch boasting close ties with the Kremlin, accused Georgia of genocide and ethnic cleansing. "We, as historic victims of genocide, cannot stand aloof," the statement said on behalf of the umbrella organization of the worldwide Russian-speaking Jewish community.
In the statement, which was widely published in Russia, Spiegel also accused the Georgian Army of inhumane behavior towards the citizens of South Ossettia, mass killings, and the destruction of the enclave's capital Tskhinvali, which he called "The capital of the republic."
In a conversation with Haaretz, MK Ze'ev Elkin (Kadima), who serves as the deputy head of the Congress, criticized Spiegel's statements, saying the organization's role is to worry about well-being of Jews worldwide and not get involved in "geo-political conflicts."
Posted by: Fred ||
08/17/2008 00:00 ||
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#4
If I am reading the first sentence correctly, Mr. Spiegel is a member of the Russian Senate, and Israeli immigrants from Russia disagree with him. I'd never heard of the World Congress of Russian Jewry before reading this article.
++++++++++++++++++++++
I just googled the Congress, and it looks like a recently-manufactured sock puppet. From the blog The Jewish Russian Telegraph link
The World Congress of Russian Jewry belongs to a network of often-overlapping Jewish congresses in Russia.
Under the leadership of Boris Shpigel, a member of Russia's upper house of parliament, the World Congress has staked its claim to the Russian expatriate community, especially in Israel, the United States and Germany.
The congress is built on the belief that Russian-speaking Jews harbor a distinct mix of cultural, religious and ethnic identity that sets them apart from the Jewish communities where they land after leaving the former Soviet Union.
Maintaining that identity also meshes with an initiative of the Russian government led by a Kremlin insider close to Shpigel. But the club members say they did not join to press the Russian government's agenda abroad.
Much like how China assumes that their emigrants of course will remain Chinese rather than assimilating into the country where they settled.. and therefore willingly act for the benefit of China against their new home.
#5
All immigrants will retain some elements of their former country's traditions. It's hard to let go. Mainland Chinese immigrants in particular retain much of their traditions stretching way back before Mao, many of them very much congruous with American traditions.
It's hard to let go of your cultural traditions so much so that many of those traditions get assimilated into our own culture.
Who doesn't like Chinese food, except my wife tells me the Chinese food served in Chinese in America restaurants bear little resemblance to traditional folk Chinese meals.
#6
Not at all the same as acting as agents of the Olde Countrie's intelligence apparatus or propagating the ruling party's line, badanov. Mr. Wife says the pita here tastes wrong without the grit of Egyptian sand between the teeth, which he grew to like when he spent the better part of a year working there, but that doesn't mean he wants to forward President Mubarek's policies
Georgia's Foreign Ministry claims rebels from the breakaway province of Abkhazia have gained control over 13 villages in Georgia proper.
A statement released by the foreign ministry said armed Abkhazian militias on Saturday seized two villages in the Zugdidi region, 11 villages in the Tsalenjikha region and territory of the Enguri Hydropower plant, AFP reported.
Independent sources or Abkhaz officials were not immediately available to confirm the report.
The power plant and most of the villages are placed in a buffer zone, which was established following a 1994 UN ceasefire resolution.
The buffer zone covers an area between Georgia's Zugdidi region and Abkhazia's Gali region. It also includes a narrow mountainous strip between Abkhazian territory and the Inguri River.
Georgia's claims come as Russia pulled back its troops from the center of the town of Igoeti, about 40 km (25 miles) from Tbilisi.
Earlier on Saturday Russia's President Dmitry Medvedev signed a French-brokered peace plan, already signed by Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili, to end hostilities in region.
Later in the day, however, Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov asserted that Moscow has no specified timetable for the full withdrawal of its troops from Georgian conflict zones due to the instability in the region.
"We are constantly encountering various problems with the Georgian side and it will depend how quickly and effectively this problem will be solved," he said.
The Russia-Georgia conflict erupted last Friday after Georgia launched a major offensive against its other breakaway province of South Ossetia.
Russia, the main ally of South Ossetia, responded by sending in armed convoys and military combat aircraft.
Moscow accuses Tbilisi of genocide against ethnic Ossetians, most of whom hold Russian citizenship.
Posted by: Fred ||
08/17/2008 00:00 ||
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I don't understand what is going on. Like the Bosnian conflict, it seems that the MSM is making an effort to "cleanse" their wording so as to make sure that we have no clue as to why one side is angry with the other.
The power plant and most villages were placed in a buffer zone established in 1994 UN ceasefire. Ok. But wtf is going on now?
Sooo, do these Abkhazian militias represent the will the people in a "breakaway province" or are they just Russian funded militants creating havoc?
The Russia-Georgia conflict erupted last Friday after Georgia launched a major offensive against its other breakaway province of South Ossetia.
Huh? Russia has obviously been planning this invasion for some time. Nobody just invades on a whim. Did the Georgians launch a major offensive against Ossetia last Friday? What did they do?
It's very confusing. I hope the blogs will do a better job of letting us understand the conflicts than the MSM did on the Kosovo/Bosnian ones. I still haven't got a clue what really happened there.
Against their will, Georgian men in their 40s and 50s hauled debris Saturday from the streets of separatist South Ossetia's bombed-out capital.
In a sign that Georgians are being abused in the Russian-controlled province, a Russian officer and armed Ossetians escorted forced laborers through the city, the nucleus of fighting that has pit two former Soviet neighbors against each other and worried the world. "They are cleaning up after themselves," said Mikhail Mindzayev, South Ossetia's interior minister.
Georgian troops pounded the city with rockets and bombs in a bid to retake control of the province Aug. 7, provoking a fierce response from South Ossetia's Russian backers. Russia sent in hundreds of tanks and the ensuing street fighting gutted yet more of Tskhinvali. About 80% of the city's 30,000 residents fled, Mindzayev said.
Russia is now in charge of the province, Russian and Georgian leaders have signed a cease-fire deal, and Ossetian refugees are returning home -- but local leaders and residents aren't ready to forgive their Georgian attackers anytime soon. Ossetians accuse Georgians of targeting civilians, a claim Georgia denies.
Posted by: Fred ||
08/17/2008 00:00 ||
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Ukraine is prepared to open its missile defence network to co-operation with European and other foreign powers, the ex-Soviet republic's foreign ministry has said.
The ministry said on Saturday, that the demise of a bilateral Russian-Ukrainian defence agreement earlier this year "allows Ukraine to establish active co-operation with European countries".
The offer came as Poland finalised an agreement to host elements of a US missile defence shield that Moscow describes as a threat to its national security.
Ukraine's foreign ministry said Kiev could invite European partners to integrate their early warning systems against missile attacks.
Ukraine is also ready to deal with "foreign countries interested in getting information about the situation in space," the ministry statement said.
Russia's parliament voted to withdraw from a bilateral missile radar accord in January in response to Ukraine's application for membership of the Nato military alliance.
Symbolic gesture
Analysts say the gesture is symbolic and that Ukraine is trying to show support for Georgia and move closer to the West in choosing alliances and overseeing its security.
A ministry statement said that because Russia pulled out of the agreement earlier this year, it allowed Ukraine to co-operate with other countries. "The fact that Ukraine is no longer a party to the ... 1992 agreement allows it to launch active co-operation with European countries to integrate its stations with ... governments with an interest in receiving data of the situation in space," it said.
Viktor Yushchenko, Ukraine's president, issued a decree this week putting an end to Ukraine's participation in the 1992 accord with Russia.
Ukraine's pro-Western leadership, brought to power by "Orange Revolution" protests in 2004 and committed to securing Nato membership, has been increasingly at odds with Russia on a range of foreign policy issues.
Yushchenko has been critical of Russia's position in its conflict with Georgia over South Ossetia.
A presidential decree this week obliged commanders of Russia's Black Sea fleet, based in Ukraine's Crimea peninsula, to seek permission before moving warships and aircraft.
Moscow denounced the move as "anti-Russian" and said its commanders would disregard the order as its forces answered solely to the Russian president.
Posted by: Fred ||
08/17/2008 00:00 ||
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#3
The Ukraine has 10 times the population of Georgia, 8 times the military, borders half a dozen countries other than Russia, and has 30% of the old Soviet military plants on its soil. It also produces an indigenous tank {T-84}, Antonov and MiL aircraft, missiles, artillery, and several classes of jet engines that the Russians use in their fighters. So if the Russians want to push the Ukrainians around, it will not be as easy as Georgia was to attack.
#5
g(r)omgoru, they are trying to prevent fight in the first place by saying "you shall not pass!". But if it does not work, I think yes, they are going to fight, provided that they've got their back covered. They know that "accomodation" would mean an end of Ukraine--even if gradually, while fighting gives them some chance that is not negligible.
#6
Good move on the part of the Ukraine after what happened to Georgia. Former leader Putin and current Russian President Dmitry Medvedev have been saber rattling and saying one thing and doing another. They are power hungry. They have no respect for another country's soveregnty. Surround them with our new allies and support our new allies, i.e. contain Russia. Tell them if they even think about nuking Poland, they can start looking for a new address themselves--someplace that is still habitable. Who the hell do the Russians think they are? Inform them in certain terms the Cold War ended during the last century. Trust them to the extent that any information is verifiable. Trust them from a postion of power. They don't seem to want to be a part of any larger world community that is based on peaceful co-existence.
#7
Are we doing a rerun of postWWII? You get Georgia. I get Ukraine? Perhaps, Russia will lose as much this time around as we did last.
Posted by: Richard of Oregon ||
08/17/2008 8:23 Comments ||
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#8
SU, the only real proponent of liberal democracy ever to hold power in the former Eastern block was Václav Havel. And he didn't last long. All these, "pro-western" leaders are just thugs & crooks who are pro-western because USA pays better than Russia. Even so, Yushchenko barely defeated his pro-Russian opponent when Russia was considered helpless. Now, that the bear is back...
#9
I think russia is in a greater state of decline than most realize. Ukrainians and Eastern Europeans seem to be more emboldened towards them lately, even after seeing what happened to Georgia. I think they know.
#10
What do y'all think about the thought that came to me while reading this thread, that Russia is trying to expand control westward because they are in the process of losing Siberia to China?
#11
What do y'all think about the thought that came to me while reading this thread, that Russia is trying to expand control westward because they are in the process of losing Siberia to China?
TW I think you've hit it, I wonder if they'll try to take Iran in my lifetime so I can watch the world's second nuclear exchange (Missed the first, wasn't born yet)
Posted by: Redneck Jim ||
08/17/2008 13:38 Comments ||
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#12
Russia is doing its power play with Georgia on its mind right now because it sees the West as weak. I hate to use the analogy, but it is like Hitler did in his expansion by intimidation into Austria, Czechoslovakia, etc, before the invasion of Poland. The Allies were weak and Hitler exploited indecision and weakness to his advantage.
The Russian far east is a long logistical road from Moscow---huge distances, even for Alaska standards. The Chicoms have time. They will slowly settle Siberia---until they own it by default.
So it is really up to the West how they want to deal with Russia---from a position of strength, or from position of wimpiness. I am not talking about saber rattling. I'm talking about about standing up for what you believe is right. (assuming you believe in anything, heh).
Posted by: Alaska Paul back from SE Alaska ||
08/17/2008 13:41 Comments ||
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#13
TW: What do y'all think about the thought that came to me while reading this thread, that Russia is trying to expand control westward because they are in the process of losing Siberia to China?
Wouldn't be the first time border tribes have fled the encroachment of the numerically superior Chinese. The problem for Russia is that this pressure will exist for as long as it has a border with China. I wonder if some kind of land grant program for Siberia would work. I mean a program similar to how the west was won - for people from select countries, and perhaps internally. The problem, of course, is that this would conflict with the interests of the oligarchs, who want the state's lands for themselves, without having to hold title at all.
#14
RJ, the first use of nuclear weapons wasn't an exchange but a dilevery. I hope the world doesn't have to witness the first exchange.
Posted by: Deacon Blues ||
08/17/2008 13:52 Comments ||
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#15
Russia could take out Georgia, Russia could take out Urkaine, Russia could take out the Baltic states. But what about all at once? With American support, with an hungry China looking up at the exposed Siberia.
Even if they did win and occupy all those areas I have to imagine the guerrilla/terrorist problems would make it less than worthwhile.
I think Russia made a big mistake and Putin will soon realize it.
#16
IMO Puttie Pute made a huge blunder invading Georgia.. they will be weaker now, relative to every ex-Soviet block satellite.
Posted by: Red Dawg ||
08/17/2008 14:13 Comments ||
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#17
Russia has big oil and gas projects going in the Russian far east. I have some friends working on them. But if they screw foreign companies working on them, like they have done in the past, they won't have any, and there goes the revenue for financing Pooty Poot's soulful adventures.
Putin is burning the candle at both ends. Once again, this shows how important it is for the US to get off the imported oil teat. But that requires vision and smarts, and not being bought off by the ME oil ticks. I consider the oil ticks, as well as the great majority of Congress the enemy of the US.
Posted by: Alaska Paul back from SE Alaska ||
08/17/2008 14:18 Comments ||
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#18
NO NO NO NO! We must wait for a un resolution and THEN take action.
NEW DELHI: The long-delayed IAF plans to plug gaps in its air defence capabilities are finally making some headway now, with the government giving the go-ahead for the procurement of SpyDer low-level quick-reaction missile systems from Israel.
Sources said the deal for the 18 SpyDer systems, at a cost over Rs 1,800 crore, should be "inked within a few weeks" after being approved by the Defence Acquisitions Council. The deal has been hanging fire for quite some time now, with one of the main reasons being the naming of Israeli Aerospace Industries and Rafael in the Rs 1,160 crore Barak-I deal kickbacks case by the CBI.
The government, however, was reluctant to blacklist these Israeli armament firms since it would have proven "counter-productive" with several "crucial" defence projects underway with them. Now, with the Left albatross no longer hanging around its neck, the government seems to be quietly moving ahead with procurements and projects with Israel. These include the projects to develop new-generation 'Barak' surface-to-air (SAM) missile systems.
The IAF had pushed for the SpyDer systems, which have Python-5 and Derby missiles to take on hostile aircraft, helicopters, drones and PGMs (precision-guided munitions), due to persistent delays in the indigenous Akash and Trishul SAM systems. Interestingly, DRDO earlier this year declared that the Akash air defence system, with an interception range of 25-km, was now ready. It promised to deliver an initial two Akash squadrons to IAF, at a cost of Rs 1,081 crore, within three years.
The IAF, of course, is in desperate need of advanced air defence systems to replace its ageing fleet of Russian-origin Pechora, IGLA and OSA-AK missile systems. The gigantic Rs 10,000 crore project with Israel to develop an advanced new-generation SAM system, capable of detecting and destroying hostile aircraft, missiles and spy drones at a range of 120-km, will go a long way in boosting IAF's air defence capabilities to protect "vital and strategic assets".
This project, cleared by the Cabinet Committee on Security in July 2007, will provide IAF with an initial nine air defence squadrons. It's actually an extension of the ongoing DRDO-IAI project, cleared in January 2006 at a cost of Rs 2,606 crore, to develop a supersonic 70-km-range Barak-2 missile defence system for the Navy. This naval long-range SAM (LR-SAM) system basically has four components: the multi-function surveillance and threat alert radars, with a 350-km range; the weapon control system with data links; the vertical launch units; and the actual two-stage interceptor missiles.
"With most of the design work now over, this LR-SAM project should be completed by 2011. The three Kolkata-class guided-missile destroyers being built at Mazagon Docks will be the first to be equipped with them," said a source. These projects, one again, underline the emergence of Israel as India's second largest defence partner since the 1999 Kargil conflict, with New Delhi sourcing armaments worth a staggering $8 billion from Tel Aviv.
Posted by: john frum ||
08/17/2008 15:43 ||
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#1
ION GUAM K57 RADIO NEWS > GUAM'S ANDERSEN AFB GIVES THE US AIR FORCE A STRATEGIC LOCATION ADVANTAGE IN THE PACIFIC.
Hopefully, the USA will not pull out of Guam 2040-2050. The USA has not won the WOT = OWG-NWO yet, + CHINA is still desirous of achieving its perceived Regional-Global "Manifest Destiny", which AFAIK still includes taking over 1/2 or more of the entire PACIFIC RIM + CONUS-NORAM for "Living Space" + Resources. Ditto also eventually for Central-South America.
REMINDER FOR GUAM > GLOBAL STRIKE + PROMPT STRIKE + SPACE STRIKE > SUPER MIL-SPACE TECHS = the USA is dev [armed]airborne crafts that can stay in the Earth's high atmosphere near-indefinitely or better, + REUSABLE LUNAR CRAFTS WHICH CAN SAFELY TRAVEL TO THE MOON AND BACK + MOON-BASED GLOBAL COMMUNICATIONS.
NEW DELHI: Continuing with its policy of constructively engaging countries in West Asia and Africa to make its presence felt in the Indian Ocean Region (IOR), India has sent four of its major warships to the Red Sea and the African coast on a two-month-long deployment.
"The Indian ships will be present in the IOR for a while, doing some flag showing and also engaging in naval diplomacy with some port calls, mid-sea exercises and interaction with personnel from the navies of the West Asian countries and the African continent," a top Navy official said here today.
The Indian warships INS Delhi, INS Talwar, INS Godavari and INS Aditya will simultaneously be visiting countries and ports all along the eastern African coast and some ports in the Red Sea, apart from exercising with the French navy in the Gulf.
The ships from Indian Western Naval Command began their journey end of July and is only expected to come back to Indian shores in mid-September, the official said.
Delhi and Talwar have already completed their visit to Safaga port in Egypt in Red Sea between August 5 and 8, while Godavari and Aditya sailed to Refaet-al-Assad in Syria.
The ships would now be sailing Mombasa, the second largest port-city of Kenya, Darasalam in Nigeria, other east African ports and a couple of ports in Madagascar Island and Mauritius.
Posted by: john frum ||
08/17/2008 10:51 ||
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Pakistan's foreign minister has said President Pervez Musharraf must stand down in the next two days or face impeachment proceedings. "Musharraf is running out of time", said Shah Mahmood Qureshi, of the Pakistan People's Party (PPP) - a major partner in the governing coalition.
Draft charges against the president include violation of the constitution and gross misconduct, officials said. Mr Musharraf's office has said he will not resign and will defend himself.
The impeachment campaign was launched last week by leaders of the PPP and the Pakistan Muslim League-Nawaz (PML-N), led by former prime minister Nawaz Sharif. A PML-N official said: "There is a long list of charges against him... we will file them, by the latest, by Tuesday."
If Mr Musharraf chooses not to quit, he would be the first president in Pakistan's history to be impeached.
Posted by: Fred ||
08/17/2008 00:00 ||
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#1
if impeached, do you get to keep the cool sprockets?
Posted by: Frank G ||
08/17/2008 19:09 Comments ||
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A new congressional study has found that more than 20 Muslim nations deny entry to American and other foreign religious workers, WND has learned, even as the U.S. State Department grants entry to hundreds of clerics from their countries each year.
The United Arab Emirates, Saudi Arabia, Egypt and most other Middle Eastern countries still refuse to offer religious visas, they and deny entry to U.S. clergy as official policy, according to a report by the Law Library of Congress, the foreign legal research arm of the U.S. Congress. In a shocker, U.S. allies Afghanistan and Iraq also made the list of religious refuseniks.
"Of this group, the vast majority constitute Arab or Muslim states," said Wendy Zeldin, senior legal research analyst for the Library of Congress. "Since Islam prohibits proselytism by other religions, foreign religious workers will in effect be denied entry to conduct religious work," Zeldin wrote in the three-page report, a copy of which was obtained by WND.
At the same time, Washington routinely issues R-1 religious visas to clerics from the Middle East, including jihadi hotbeds Saudi Arabia and Egypt, even though an alarming number of foreign imams have been suspects in terrorism investigations since 9/11. The Department of Homeland Security, in fact, considers visiting imams as nonthreatening as Buddhist monks. Screening procedures call for both visitors to be treated as the same level of security risk at the border. Also, R-2 visas are routinely granted to relatives of foreign imams.
By comparison, Saudi religious police recently accused more than a dozen foreign Christians living in the kingdom of worshipping in their homes and ordered them deported. The deportation conflicts with the message stated just weeks earlier by Saudi King Abdullah, who called for interfaith dialogue and held a summit in Spain with a representatives from several major religions. "Deporting Christians for worshipping in their private homes shows that King Abdullah's speech is mere rhetoric and his country is deceiving the international community about their desire for change and reconciliation," International Christian Concern President Jeff King said. King Abdullah's meetings -- which drew about 200 representatives of Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, Taoism and other religions -- had to be held outside of Saudi Arabia, because, as one journalist observed, "the mere fact that rabbis would be openly invited to the kingdom, a country where in principle Jews are not permitted to visit, would have constituted a turning point."
Some U.S. lawmakers say the long list of Muslim nations denying non-Muslim religious workers is eye-opening. "This gives us a better picture of what countries discriminate against us based on religion," said Rep. Sue Myrick, R-N.C., who instructed the Congressional Research Service to compile the list [at link]. Myrick, who co-chairs of the House Anti-Terrorism/Jihad Caucus, said she is troubled by the one-sided exchange of religious visitors, and plans to introduce a bill to restrict R-1/R-2 religious visas for imams who come from countries that do not allow reciprocal visits by non-Muslim clergy.
#4
Our allies the Saudis own State, much of Congress, and the President. When it comes to standing up for the principles that our country is founded on, most of our leaders fail. It turns my stomach.
Well, at least the Beijing games are going well, [aside from a few stabbings]. That's a comfort.
Posted by: Alaska Paul back from SE Alaska ||
08/17/2008 14:24 Comments ||
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#5
A sign of weakness and fear. Those Christian missionaries have hypnotic powers, don'tcha know.
A couple of minutes talking to an Imam and he'll be munching down a ham sammich, teenage girls will be disco dancing with boys, and women will tell their husbands to cook their own damn dinner.
Up to 30,000 people gathered to support Anwar Ibrahim, Malaysia's de facto opposition leader, as he launched his bid to return to parliament, in defiance of sodomy allegations made against him by a young male aide. "I am touched by the support. This is an overwhelming support," Anwar said as he arrived at the nomination centre in the Permatang Pauh constituency on Saturday.
Supporters shouted Anwar's battle cry of "Reformasi" or "Reform", and waved party flags, facing off against 5,000 government supporters, trading taunts and insults.
Anwar said at a rally on Friday night that the sodomy allegations were part of a government conspiracy to prevent him from ousting the ruling Barisan Nasional coalition, after March elections handed the opposition alliance a third of parliamentary seats. "They are afraid of me being an MP and going on to become the opposition leader in parliament," he said.
He was formally charged earlier this month, just after his wife vacated the Permatang Pauh constituency - which she has held since he went to jail - to allow him to return to parliament after a decade-long absence.
Anwar accuser
However, Mohamad Saiful Bukhari Azlan, Anwar's accuser who is a 23-year-old former volunteer in the opposition leader's office, visited a mosque on Friday to swear he was telling the truth and challenged Anwar to do the same. He also said that he was sodomised against his will, although when Anwar was formally accused in court the charge indicated the alleged sex act was consensual.
Anwar was deputy premier until he was sacked in 1998 and convicted on sodomy and corruption counts. The sodomy conviction was later overturned. Sodomy is a serious offence in Malaysia, a conservative and predominantly Muslim nation, and carries a penalty of 20 years imprisonment.
Anwar, representing his Keadilan party, is running against Arif Shah Omar Shah, a veteran member of the United Malays National Organisation (UMNO), which leads the the ruling National Front coalition, in the August 26 poll. "I have known the people here and they know what to expect from me if I am elected. I am after all a two-term assemblyman and I have been doing my work since way back," Arif said. "I know Anwar well. We have been friends and I look forward to taking him on."
In a racial breakdown that broadly mirrors the national population, more than two-thirds of voters in Permatang Pauh are Muslim Malays, alongside Chinese who make up 26 per cent and Indians at six per cent.
Posted by: Fred ||
08/17/2008 00:00 ||
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Permatang Pauh Voters decide for Nation?
Pengundi Permatang Pauh tentukan untuk Negara?
1. Voters of Permatang Pauh will vote come 26 August 2008. Who to vote for and What to vote for? (Man of Honour in Nostradamus Quatrains on Wag the Dog?)
Pengundi-pengundi Permatang Pauh akan undi menjelang 26 Ogos 2008. Mengundi Siapa and mengundi untuk Apa? (Man of Honour di Nostradamus Quatrains Wag the Dog?)
2. 50 Questions to test your Conscience at Jeyklls and Hydes in Malaysia Are You?
50 Soalan untuk menguji Suara Hati anda di Jeyklls and Hydes di Malaysia. Adakah Anda?
A multi-volume chronology and reference guide set detailing three years of the Mexican Drug War between 2010 and 2012.
Rantburg.com and borderlandbeat.com correspondent and author Chris Covert presents his first non-fiction work detailing
the drug and gang related violence in Mexico.
Chris gives us Mexican press dispatches of drug and gang war violence
over three years, presented in a multi volume set intended to chronicle the death, violence and mayhem which has
dominated Mexico for six years.
Rantburg was assembled from recycled algorithms in the United States of America. No
trees were destroyed in the production of this weblog. We did hurt some, though. Sorry.
For Dr. Becky Oliphant, turning 50 is anything but gloomy. "It's a very liberating feeling," the Florida resident and first-time skydiver says. "I'm doing things I've never done before; I'm trying more things. Maybe it's because I feel like I don't have that much time left to do everything that I want to." 
Russian-speaking Israeli figures have expressed dismay at a statement made by the chairman of the World Congress of Russian Jewry, Russian Senator Boris Spiegel, calling for the establishment of a tribunal that would investigate Georgia's "war crimes" during the past week's round of fighting. 
Pakistan's foreign minister has said President Pervez Musharraf must stand down in the next two days or face impeachment proceedings. "Musharraf is running out of time", said Shah Mahmood Qureshi, of the Pakistan People's Party (PPP) - a major partner in the governing coalition. 
A new congressional study has found that more than 20 Muslim nations deny entry to American and other foreign religious workers, WND has learned, even as the U.S. State Department grants entry to hundreds of clerics from their countries each year.
