What is this, the official "Terrorists Whine About Prison Week?"
A lawyer for a radical Muslim cleric fighting extradition to the United States on terrorism charges complained Friday that the cleric and other Muslim prisoners were being offered food forbidden by their religion. Attorney Muddassar Arani, who represents cleric Abu Hamza al-Masri as well as some of the men charged this week with a terrorist conspiracy, said some inmates were horrified to find spicy pork chops on their menus, even though pork is forbidden in Islam. Big clue: You're in prison, you f&%kwits. This isn't a catering service or four star restaurant. Don't like it? Don't eat it.
She said al-Masri, who has lost both hands and an eye, has suffered declining health because of the lack of facilities for the disabled at Belmarsh high-security prison. They wipe your @ss for you. What more do you want?
Arani spoke to reporters outside Bow Street Magistrates Court, where al-Masri made a brief court appearance ahead of a full extradition hearing on Oct. 19. The former chief preacher at London's Finsbury Park Mosque and Britain's best-known Islamic radical, al-Masri is accused by U.S. authorities of trying to establish a terrorist training camp in Oregon, being involved in hostage-taking in Yemen and funding terrorism training in Afghanistan.
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#1
LONDON - A lawyer for a radical Muslim cleric fighting extradition to the United States on terrorism charges complained Friday that the cleric and other Muslim prisoners were being offered food forbidden by their religion. Attorney Muddassar Arani, who represents cleric Abu Hamza al-Masri as well as some of the men charged this week with a terrorist conspiracy, said some inmates were horrified to find spicy pork chops on their menus, even though pork is forbidden in Islam.
WTF??? Food that is "offered" or appears on a "menu" are CHOICES, YOU STUPID IDIOTS. They're not FORCING you to eat the stuff, are they?
Just shut the hell up and do your time, damn whiny little morons.
#2
As with how Muslim males are unbearably inflamed by the least glimpse of an ankle or lock of hair, just seeing the word "pork" is an insufferable affront to their manhood and faith. In the spirit of that notion:
#3
"it stated the food was halal, but if you went down the menu it said spicy pork chops,"
The truth is more horrible than they imagine. What they don't realize is the dreaded secret that Gharlton al-Heston learned: Spicy Pork Chops is People!
Hundreds of leaflets urging Muslims to become terrorist fighters have been distributed at a Midland mosque. Police have been called in to investigate after the flyers were found at Birmingham Central Mosque last week. The leaflets urge worshippers to become Mujahideen fighters and ask them to "pray for death and decay to be visited upon the West". The literature bears the name of a group called Ahle Sunnah Wal Jamah, which mosque officials say is often used as an alias for the Al Muhajiroun group. Al Muhajiroun, a small radical organisation which has called for a British Islamic state, has been accused of inciting terrorism, anti-Semitism and homophobia.
Mosque chairman Dr Mohammed Naseem warned that the leaflets could act as a recruitment aid for would-be terrorists. "It is very worrying," he said. "These leaflets appear to be encouraging Muslims to become Mujahideen fighters. This sort of thing getting into the wrong hands is very dangerous. They are the views of a minority of people but young, impressionable Muslims may read this and think they should be doing these things. I shall be showing the leaflets to our community policeman and asking him for advice."
A mosque official who discovered piles of the leaflets at the religious centre said: "We found two varieties of a very similar flyer. It was immediately obvious that they were produced by Al Muhajiroun using their misleading alias. We removed them immediately after conferring with mosque staff. We have attempted to contact the authors by calling them but we have had no success." The spokesman added: "We do not support this kind of stuff in the mosque because it can act as a recruiting sergeant for terror-related activities. This group's literature has found its way into the mosque before and we have banned it. Most of it is political ranting and raving. But we have never had anything as hate-filled as these leaflets or something which encourages people to join the Mujahideen."
Dr Naseem said he blamed the Government for Al Muhajiroun's continuing presence in Britain. "Its leaders continue to preach and incite terrorism and yet the Government does not nothing about it," he said. "These people should be removed from the country."
#1
Finding terror leaflets at a Mosque is like finding gas at Texaco.
Posted by: Chris W. ||
08/20/2004 12:16 Comments ||
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"Its leaders continue to preach and incite terrorism and yet the Government does not nothing about it," he said. These people should be removed from the country."
Hear, hear, Dr. Naseem. Preach it loud and long, brother.
And from ours, too.
Posted by: Barbara Skolaut ||
08/20/2004 12:33 Comments ||
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#3
Dr. Naseem is to be commended for coming forward with his discovery. All Muslim leaders are obliged to do likewise and such acts represent one of the few avenues by which Islam will survive as a religion.
#7
Could this be the begining of a fundimental change in Islam of the west.
I'll try and put this politely. If this isn't the beginning of a fundamental change in the West and is, merely an anomaly instead, then Islam is doomed to extinction. Events like the one being described here have been so exceedingly rare overall that counting on Islam to change is pretty much a losing bet.
#8
Interesting. Out of 1,5 billion Muslims on the planet, Mosque chairman Naseem is the eleventh or twelfth I've heard with balls enough to criticize Islamic terror.
Unless of course this is just an exercise to trick the infidels, nudge-nuge, wink-wink.
#4
From a site with some pics of the lovely Miss Aylar (http://pub.tv2.no/nettavisen/bilder_ccr/article267456.ece?show=4):
"...Da Frøken Norge-ledelsen fikk vite at missekandidaten Aylar hadde spilt inn to pornofilmer, ble hun fratatt sin plass i finalen. Se bilder av missen."
I don't know what it means but after getting a look at her, I agree wholeheartedly.
Mike
Posted by: Mike Kozlowski ||
08/20/2004 13:26 Comments ||
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#5
Was she disqualified from the Miss Norway pageant because she had worked for money, and that violated their equivalent of NCAA rules or something? Or was it because she had had sex, and they want the illusion maintained that Norweigan girls hate sex?
Posted by: Chris W. ||
08/20/2004 13:30 Comments ||
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#7
Make it a soft spanking :-)
Obviously sex doesn't affect your brain:
"Very many Muslim women want their freedom â and extremist Muslims have to respect that! That is the price they have to pay in order to live in a free country like Norway,» Aylar said."
The US military says it will keep its European command in Germany - adding new brigades and expanding key bases - amid plans for a broader pull-out. Gen Charles Wald said three new brigades - numbering between 3,000 and 5,000 men each - will come to Germany. However, some 30,000 troops already stationed there are to be withdrawn.
1st AD and 1st ID are coming home.
US President George W Bush announced the withdrawal on Monday, as part of plans to upgrade Cold-War era military deployments for the "war on terror". The plans envisage some 70,000 US troops - currently stationed in western Europe and east Asia - being pulled out over the next six years to make way for smaller, more mobile deployments. Gen Wald said the US will not move its European command, which monitors an area covering 91 countries, from Germany. Nor will US Air Force bases in Germany be affected by the planned withdrawals, he said, with one of the bases, Ramstein, set to "become even larger". The new deployments coming to Germany are the Stryker armoured vehicle brigade, a paratrooper brigade and an expeditionary brigade. The withdrawal of about 30,000 soldiers from the heavier armoured fighting divisions will not take place before 2006, so that the views of the German government can be taken into account, Gen Wald said. German communities that have evolved to serve the bases earlier voiced alarm at President Bush's withdrawal plans, fearing their livelihoods will be endangered.
Sorry, but that's not why we were there.
Posted by: Steve ||
08/20/2004 10:28:27 AM ||
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The new brigades are actual high-mobility rapid-deployment elements - the sort of forces which pro-European deployment wallahs insist are our reason for retained bases in Germany. In other words, this is exactly the sort of force structure which should be there, according to the critics. Air-deployable brigades make sense in Germany, since the north German ports in the theatre make the heavy divisions which *have* been based there less deployable to the expected areas of conflict than similar units based in the continental US.
This is part of why we had Third and Fourth Infantry (of Georgia and Texas, respectively) in Iraq initially instead of 1st Armored and 1st Infantry - it was easier to deploy directly from stateside than extract those two heavy units from Germany.
Posted by: Mitch H. ||
08/20/2004 11:09 Comments ||
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I don't see the point of all this. Take ALL our forces out and put them someplace where they'll be appreciated for more than just an economic benefit.
A top French court is due to decide on Friday whether a Lebanese-based Arabic channel should be banned in France. The country's broadcast watchdog body wants al-Manar TV removed from satellite transmissions for allegedly airing anti-Semitic views. The move follows a complaint by French Jewish groups over a programme entitled the Criminal History of Zionism, which they say incited hatred. The proposed ban has drawn protests from Al-Manar and Lebanon's government. The Higher Broadcasting Council (CSA) is seeking approval from the Council of State - France highest administrative court - to have al-Manar temporarily suspended. The CSA says the Criminal History of Zionism - broadcast in late 2003 - quoted extensively from the discredited 1997 publication the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, alluding to "Jewish ritual killings".
The channel denies the charge of anti-Semitism, saying the programme "depicted reality" and did not incite hatred. Al-Manar Foreign Editor Ibrahim Mousawi told BBC News Online that the proposed ban result from "political pressure by the Jewish lobby". He added that the station wanted to "solve the problem through negotiation". The Beirut government has also criticised the CSA's decision. Lebanese media quoted a letter from the foreign ministry to the French government arguing that the broadcast was a criticism of "the Zionist ideology and practices at the core of the Arab-Israeli conflict", not an attack on Jews.
Posted by: tipper ||
08/20/2004 2:53:03 AM ||
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#1
the discredited 1997 publication the Protocols of the Elders of Zion
The year in that phrase should be 1897. The following is a history of the forgery, from The Skeptic's Dictionary.
The Protocols of the Elders of Zion is a forgery made in Russia for the Okhrana (secret police), which blames the Jews for the country's ills. It was first privately printed in 1897 and was made public in 1905. It is copied from a nineteenth century novel by Hermann Goedsche (Biarritz, 1868) and claims that a secret Jewish cabal is plotting to take over the world.
The basic story was composed by Goedsche, a German novelist and anti-Semite who used the pseudonym of Sir John Retcliffe. Goedsche stole the main story from another writer, Maurice Joly, whose Dialogues in Hell Between Machiavelli and Montesquieu (1864) involved a Hellish plot aimed at opposing Napoleon III. Goedsche's original contribution consists mainly of introducing Jews to do the plotting to take over the world.
The Russians used big chunks of a Russian translation of Goedsche's novel, published it separately as the Protocols, and claimed they were authentic. Their purpose was political: to strengthen the czar Nicholas II's position by exposing his opponents as allies with those who were part of a massive conspiracy to take over the world. Thus, the Protocols are a forgery of a plagiarized fiction.
The Protocols were exposed as a forgery by Lucien Wolf in The Jewish Bogey and the Forged Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion (London: Press Committee of the Jewish Board of Deputies, 1920). In 1921, Philip Graves, a correspondent for the London Times, publicized the forgery. Herman Bernstein in The Truth About "The Protocols of Zion": A Complete Exposure (1935) also tried and failed to convince the world of the forgery.
Posted by: Mike Sylwester ||
08/20/2004 8:48 Comments ||
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[the broadcast by the channel was] . . .alluding to "Jewish ritual killings"
The channel denies the charge of anti-Semitism, saying the programme "depicted reality"
so discussing "Jewish ritual killings" isn't anti-Semitism, it's simply a matter of "fact" according to the channel.
#3
The CSA says the Criminal History of Zionism - broadcast in late 2003 - quoted extensively from the discredited 1997 publication the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, alluding to "Jewish ritual killings".
Any organization that disseminates part or parcel of "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion" is automatically guilty of fraud, hate speech and anti-Semitism.
The channel denies the charge of anti-Semitism, saying the programme "depicted reality" and did not incite hatred.
Add "delusional behavior" to list as well. I hope France has the good sense to permanently revoke al-Manar TV's license to broadcast. They are essentially promoting a terrorist agenda and need to be shut down immediately.
We call upon all freedom loving, organizations and individuals to join us in opposing the Ontario Arbitration Act 1991. This act allows religion to interfere with the Canadian justice system. This act allows family disputes to be resolved outside of court by arbitrators according to their own religious and cultural beliefs. This act allows Islamic groups to legalize the suppression of women by implementing the proposed Sharia Court .
Join the protest and make your voice heard.
When: Wednesday September 8th at 12 noon
Where: Queen's Part, Ontario legislation
Sponsored by The International Campaign Against Sharia Court in Canada
The site also has images, editorial comment, etc.
Most of the content is by Ms. Homa Arjomand who excaped from Iran in the 90s.
Posted by: mhw ||
08/20/2004 9:12:27 AM ||
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#1
Wimyn like this scare the hell out of Muslim myns. Here's Chuck Asay's take on it.
#3
I can't come to Ontario for the protest, Ms. Arjamond, but for what it's worth, I am saying very serious prayers for your success in the International Campaign against Sharia Court in Canada.
Peacock guy is ruffled One, two, three - Awwwwwww...
Preening? Egocentric? What is 'Yes and yes', Alex?
Tom Brokaw?
NBC News' 63-year-old alpha male - already annoyed that nobody from NBC was picked last Friday to moderate this fall's presidential and vice presidential debates - is mad as hell and he's not going to take it anymore. YEEEEEAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGHHHHHHH!
He blew a gasket this week after debate honcho Janet Brown told The New York Times that star network anchormen are unsuitable. "For fear that there's not enough room on the stage for the candidates and their Hindenburg sized egos they would overshadow the events," The Times explained. "It's important for the moderators to focus attention on the candidates," said Brown, executive director of the Commission on Presidential Debates. Sorry, Tom - it's NOT all about you.
Brokaw took it personally. Brown's remark "leaves the undeniable impression that you believe if we were moderators, we'd be preening, egocentric performers," the anchor wrote in a scorching letter to Brown. "I deeply resent that implication." (Brokaw sent copies of his screed to various and sundry, and predictably the letter quickly reached me.) Kinda proving the critics point, aren't ya, Tommy?
Brokaw - who's giving up his anchor perch for another blow-dried hairshirt Brian Williams right after the revolution election - went on to recount, at considerable length, his experience moderating political debates and conducting interviews with candidates and actual Presidents. "Not once did candidates, campaigns or press critics suggest I was more concerned with my role than with the role of the candidates," Brokaw claimed. Well, not in public...
"I am particularly outraged that the commission failed to choose anyone from NBC News personnel for a moderator's role." "It's OUTRAGEOUS, I tell you! SCANDALOUS!!"
Brokaw's parting shot from a cap gun: "For a commission that has assumed primary power in the exercise of the democratic process, you have a peculiarly autocratic style." Eins, Zwei, Drei, Vier! Look, Ma, I'm goosesteppin'!
Brown - who instead picked ABC's resident leftist Charlie Gibson, CBS' resident bootlick Bob Schieffer and PBS' dead man walkin' Jim Lehrer and Gwen Ifill to moderate the debates - declined to comment on Brokaw's letter. A spokeswoman for NBC News - whose president, Neal Shapiro, complained to the commission from NBC Olympics headquarters in Athens - said Brokaw was on vacation and unreachable. But Brokaw wasn't too busy to fire off a letter expressing his outrage? How convenient!
The spokeswoman referred me to a previous NBC News press release expressing "surprise" and "deep disappointment." Janet Brown, Debate Nazi = "No broadcast for you!"
#1
Well Tommy, at least they didn't pick Rather. Maybe they are telling you you aren't really as objective as you really think you are?
Posted by: Bill Nelson ||
08/20/2004 14:42 Comments ||
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Brownâs remark "leaves the undeniable impression that you believe if we were moderators, weâd be preening, egocentric performers," the anchor wrote in a preening, egocentric scorching letter to Brown.
Um, it's usually not a good idea to go all diva when somebody accuses you of being a diva.
Just mentioning "ANWR" and oil drilling in the same breath is bound to touch off a controversy. But the governor of Alaska says it's a non-issue because he plans to search for oil on state land just off the shore from the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge. Republican Gov. Frank Murkowski said he is encouraging oil companies to begin test drilling as early as January on the first three miles of submerged land off the Alaska coast, land that belongs to the state. "We are a sovereign state and we have this authority and I hope we find a big puddle down there," Murkowski said. Two years ago, Congress scratched a plan to explore for oil in ANWR after environmental groups argued it would harm the native porcupine caribou. Now, groups say drilling by the state could decimate the seal, polar bear and bowhead whale supply, which Eskimos rely on for sustenance. "This isn't environmentalists being alarmists ... it's a situation where we're being alarmed," said Bob Randall of Trustees for Alaska.
Posted by: Super Hose ||
08/20/2004 02:14 ||
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Yes, eLarson. Caribou hang out in Prudhoe Bay in the summer. If they stand around on the road, you have to wait till they go. Sometimes around the ponds you see baby ducks. No kittens, though. Heh heh.
Posted by: Alaska Paul ||
08/20/2004 12:28 Comments ||
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#5
ha, ha...gotta give the GOP credit. With oil at record highs and our troops in Iraq and Afghanistan, they are going to make the donks explain why they won't reduce our dependence on foreign oil.
Posted by: B ||
08/20/2004 16:00 Comments ||
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Al Qaeda member and Florence prison inmate Richard Reid has moved his court challenge of federal prison rules to Denver. Reid is serving a life sentence for trying to blow up an airplane with explosives hidden in his shoes in 2001. The Justice Department has imposed restrictions on Reid and other terrorism-related prisoners they consider a threat to national security. In a handwritten lawsuit filed in U.S. District Court in Denver last week, Reid wrote he has been kept in isolation in a cell with a window that does not let him see outside, and that his mail is inspected by authorities. He said he has been denied access to religious materials, books, classes and correspondence courses, some television and radio stations, prison jobs, telephone calls with his aunts and uncles, daily showers, and his subscription to Time magazine. Prosecutors say such restrictions are necessary because Al Qaeda members sometimes communicate through coded messages, but Reid and two other Florence inmates with suspected ties to Al Qaeda have filed court challenges saying too many of their rights have been restricted.
Posted by: Howard UK ||
08/20/2004 05:20 ||
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#1
I am duly outraged that a British citizen should be kept in such barbaric conditions.
*snicker*
The reason you're in solitary asshole, is that you'd probably be killed.
Posted by: Howard UK ||
08/20/2004 5:24 Comments ||
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#2
I rate his survival right up there with child molester/abuser at about 15 minutes in an unsupervised general pound you in the ass federal prison population.
#3
He said he has been denied ... his subscription to Time magazine. Prosecutors say such restrictions are necessary because Al Qaeda members sometimes communicate through coded messages ...
This stupid restriction is based on a fear that Time might publish a letter to the editor that includes a hidden message communicating secret instructions to Richard Reid in his super maximum security prison.
It is mind-bogglingly stupid rules like this that open the door wide open for lawyers and judges to challenge and modify all prison rules.
.
Posted by: Mike Sylwester ||
08/20/2004 8:31 Comments ||
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But Mr Reid may have a letter published by the editor of Time that signals to the world's jihadis the beginning of armageddon and the coming of the Mahdi, an event that will see us all converted to Islam. Intshallah.(SWT)
Posted by: Howard UK ||
08/20/2004 8:38 Comments ||
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#5
This guy tells more tales than Kerry. Can you imagine him reading a "book" or taking a "shower"?
Posted by: Jack is Back ||
08/20/2004 9:07 Comments ||
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#6
The Administrative Maximum Unit Prison (ADX) in Florence was not designed as a country club. ....prisoners are forced to eat, sleep, and defecate in their cells and are allowed out of their cells for an extremely limited amount of time. In D, F, and G units (considered general population), out-of-cell time is a total of nine hours a week -- three times a week for three hours with one other person. The lighting is designed to prohibit sunlight: a slit 3 inches wide and 3 feet long facing a wall or rec yard and a florescent light strip provide the only illumination. The furniture is gray concrete built into white walls with drab green trim. The cells are sealed off with two steel doors, one barred, and the other solid steel. This steel and cement cage prohibits any communication between prisoners. Even contact with prison officials is limited. ADX Florence is designed so that one guard can control the movements of numerous prisoners in several cell blocks by way of electronic doors, cameras and audio equipment. "These guys will never be out of their cells, much less in the yard or anywhere around here," says Russ Martin, the project manager for the Florence prison. Puerto Rican Prisoner of War Oscar Lopez Rivera states that "isolation is perfected here, both in the structure of the cell and in the very limited communication. People don't realize the value of human intercourse until it's denied." More on Florence prison. here.
Lacking a death sentence Mr Reid is getting his just deserts.
#8
So Mr. Reid thinks the punishment is too harsh?
Has he apologised for trying to murder a couple of hundred people yet? I say don't protect him from the other inmates. Let him have his martyrdom, and let it be slow and agonising.
#9
The SuperMax is about 40 miles due south of where I live in Colorado Springs. It's a harsh looking place from the outside. I have no wish to see what it looks like from the inside. I wish I had a digital camera - I'd take some photos and post them.
Reid has no idea how UGLY the terrain immediately outside SuperMax is, or he'd be glad he doesn't have a window. Most of it is low scrub desert, with lots of bare beige dirt. Like most of Colorado, however, 30 miles away in virtually every direction is land totally different. To the south is San Isabel National Forest, one of the most beautiful places in the state. The Royal Gorge is ten miles west, with the Arkansas River valley just beyond. The foothills of Pike's Peak are to the north - along with Fort Carson and 15,000 Army troops. The city of Pueblo (130,000), 30 miles to the east, isn't exactly a garden spot, but has some absolutely fantastic old Victorian homes, a nice zoo, and a few other goodies.
Just to put matters into perspective, there are four other state and federal prisons in the Florence/Penrose/Canon City area, along with the state's Prison Museum. There's also a nice dinosaur museum - this is the area where Edward Drinker Cope pulled more than 200 fossils from local Cretaceous formations for the University of Pennsylvania in the 1800's. Everybody in the local area owns a gun, and most of them would shoot Reid on sight, if he should ever even find his way to the outside security wire.
Posted by: Old Patriot ||
08/20/2004 13:18 Comments ||
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#10
None of the cases has resulted in changes so far.
How good to see that this story has a happy ending. As to Reid's prison conditions, the stark bare and featureless environment that surrounds him sounds like a perfect match for what's going on inside his head. It couldn't happen to a nicer guy.
#11
The SuperMax is about 40 miles due south of where I live in Colorado Springs.
Say, are there any high tech companies (not semiconductor outfits, but hardware-oriented firms) located there in CO Springs? I'm itching to leave this cesspool called California, and CO seems to be in the ideal location; the desert southwest in one direction, mountains in another, and the Plains to the east. A perfect location from which to embark on leisurely motorbike rides and off-the-beaten-path 4WD expeditions.
#1: "World peace, according to Islamic teaching, "is reached only with the conversion or submission of all mankind to Islam."
Â
#2: "When Muslims disseminate Islam through violent means, that is not war (harb), as that word only describes the use of force by non-Muslims. Islamic wars are acts of "opening" the world to Islam. "Those who resist Islam cause wars and are responsible for them."
Â
#3: "Simply by the act of existing, the entire non-Islamic world is equated with war. That is why Muslims call it the Dar al-Harb, the Realm of War."
#4: "Yet when Muslims wage jihad, they are doing it to bring about the peace of universal Islam. So whatever Muslims do, is by definition peace, and whatever infidels do, is by definition war. "
#5: "This explains, by the way, why "moderate" Muslims almost never admit that Muslim terrorists are terrorists. It is because jihad itself is not war, but a way of pursuing peace."
"By such manipulations of language and such massive double standards, Islam reveals itself as a closed system that precludes any critical thought about itself, as well as any fair and honest dealings with non-Muslims."
Well--now we know, don't we. No wonder there's no reasoning with them.
Hats off to "Moslems" who stand up to this totalitarian b-s.
#2
Ok, I know that I, like alot of people around here, tend to get a little carried away when it comes to venting my anger at stupisity that is islam, but I have my limits about what to do about it here in the West.
My number one rule is that we should never sacrifice our own principles in order to defeat islam. For me, that would be the same as converting if I would do to some muslim what I would hate for them to do to me. Besides, I have faith in the power and creativity of both the Christian faith and of Western civilization to be able to arrive at an effective solution to the threat of islam without having to do things which we find shameful and inhumane.
For that reason, I have a big problem with FrontPage Magazine in general and I rarely read it. But specifically I have a real problem with the "plan" in this article mostly because it is getting awfully close to "final solution" territory.
It isn't anything obvious, but then it never begins that way, does it? Final solutions are always the end product of a slow moral slide, a gradual wearing down of tolerance, a gradual introduction of ideas that would be immediately rejected if they were advanced all at once etc.
To me this article is something like what you would find at the beginning of such a slide and so I reject its conclusions on that basis alone.
But this guy's plan also has many practical defects. Almost too many to account for, but #1 would have to be, what about the millions of muslims in the West who are citizens both natural born and naturalized? Wouldn't one have to come up with a solution for these folks? The only possible way would be to oppress them here or forcibly uproot them and send them to muslim countries. Do we seriously expect that they would leave voluntarily?
This leads to a related problem. If this group did not leave on its own and we did not force them to leave, then they would still have more children than the other Westerners and they would still be able to spread their religion to others. What then. Camps? Curtailment of free speech? What else?
Surely, our values are strong enough to win over islam without having to sacrifice them in the process. We need to go back to the drawing board anytime some mentions deportations. That should be a total non-starter and it must be countered quickly in no uncertain terms by anyone with any human decency and common sense.
The only thing I agreed with him on was about sharply curtailing immigration from muslim areas. But frankly that wouldn't amount to much, I'm afraid. Still every if little bit counts then this is a good plan. We do have every right to regulate who comes to our country to live and we should definitely bar anyone who subscribes to a religious law over our own laws. Since there is no separating islamic "law" from islamic religius practice, then muslims can stay home. We don't want them here trying to worm sharia into our legal system little by little until we have two laws in this country and whole areas of our nation where our law does not apply. That is only part of what they plan for us in their own version of the final solution for us and we should not take it lying down by any means.
#3
How can Auster's comments be rejected on the basis of being something akin to the final solution because his words reflect a "slow moral slide?" Lawrence Auster is Jewish, for heavens sake, hardly a person who'd promote a "final solution."
If you are worried about the "slow moral slide" leading to another Holocaust, then you should be worried about MTV or the ACLU not Lawrence Auster.
That being said, I would criticize Auster's argument because it's so impractical. We cannot deport people on the basis of their religion. We can limit immigration generally and we can implement a policy of quotas of immigrants from source nations instead of using the patently stupid family re-unification policy that's currently in place, thanks to Swimmer. But deportation for the religion an immigrant practises is legally untenable and so it causes me to see a huge gap of realityspeak in Auster's remedial arguments.
Posted by: rex ||
08/20/2004 13:46 Comments ||
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rex,
I did not equate Auster's comments with the Final Solution. I believe that I said that his article is like something you might find at the beginning of a moral slidewhich could result in a final solution type of reaction.
Just because he is Jewish means that he couldn't possibly advocate such a thing? How exactly does being Jewish make him immune? Aren't all human beings capable of doing the wrong thing and of justifying it to themselves? Couldn't a Jewish person simply convince himself that his plan is different from Hitlers even though it too involves deportations? How is uprooting people from their homes and businesses and sending them home to places which are unprepared to accomdate them economically not potentially devastating to them? Can a person not die in a refugee camp, or of poverty? What if their nations refuse to assimiltate them and pack them into camps like Jordan did in the West Bank? So what if they are not killed en masse? Deportation for no other reason than religious affiliation is stillinhumane. Because it is less inhumane doesn't make it better. Being a little inhumane is like being a little pregnant in my book. We can't possibly claim any superiority to islam if we start to be at all like them. They are the ones who believe its ok to do the wrong thing for the right reasons. We should know better than that.
#6
Actually. I did Auster some injustice. He only seems to be advocating deportation of some muslims based on their being here illegally or if they are radicals etc. He is just saying that lawbreakers and inciters be deported and I can't disagree with him on that. He is not talking revoking visas of law abiding muslims.
However, my opinion of his article remains unchanged. His ultimate goal is to empty the west of muslims to the greatest extent possible. My concerns remain the same. What happens when the first plan doesn't succeed in getting most of them to leave? Wouldn't it be a natural next step be to try something more severe? When the deportation of undesirables doesn't really lessen the threat (there can't be that many to make much of a difference) will revoking the visas of other muslims start to make more and more sense? Those here on visas would be a much more significant part of the muslim population.
That is why I say that we should reject a plan like this out of hand on moral reasons more than practical ones. We can't have decreasing the muslim population as our goal because the flip side of that is that their numbers are the problem. Its just a more subtle way of saying that muslim people living in the west is the problem here. Where does that end?
This guy has definitely opened the door for us to come to that nasty conclusion. Read his article a couple of times and see if that is not his ultimate point ie anyone who believes in islam is part of the threat we are facing so we must first get rid of them and then fence them into their own countries. How will this kind of thinking not lead to eventually to mass deporatations?
Posted by: Mark Espinola ||
08/20/2004 16:33 Comments ||
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#8
While Auster succintly identifies the political nature of the Islamic beast, he still comes off the rails towards the end.
As an example of the effects I'm talking about, the democratic reform of Muslim societies requires their partial or complete secularization. But if the secularization of Muslim societies becomes a guiding principle of our foreign policy, that would inevitably lead us to secularize our own society as well, which is the very last thing we need.
Am I missing something here? The last time I checked, America was, and still is, a secular nation. The only alternative I see Auster making noise about is theocracy and that is an evil indentically equal to Islamism.
Moreover, this containment of the Muslim peoples can be accomplished without violating their dignity and essence as Muslims. If we sought literally to suppress and destroy Islam, we could be justly accused of practicing cultural genocide. But if we simply contain the Muslims in their historic lands where they can have no power over us, that would not be harming them, even under the terms of their own religion.
This is patently ridiculous. A substantial portion of prior American foreign policy involved exactly this sort of "containment." It would in no way prevent the breeding up of terrorism exactly as we have seen it happen. Islamic nations would simply learn to cease overt support of terrorism, take it all underground, and thereby make it even more difficult to identify or combat.
Restricting immigration from all terrorist nations and deportation of all criminal or illegal aliens (regardless of origin) is reasonable.
Iranian President Mohammad Khatami called on Muslim countries Friday to hold an urgent meeting to discuss the "catastrophe" in Iraq, particularly the 2-week standoff in the holy city of Najaf. Khatami urged the 57-member Organization of the Islamic Conference to hold an emergency summit and said immediate action should be taken to end the escalating violence in the southern Iraqi city of Najaf, where militiamen loyal to militant Shiite cleric Muqtada al-Sadr have been fighting U.S. and Iraqi forces. "What is happening in Iraq is a spiritual and human catastrophe and immediate action must be taken to stop the spread of the catastrophe, particularly in Najaf," Khatami said in a telephone conversation with the head of the OIC Abdullah Ahmad Badawi, according to the official Islamic Republic News Agency.
"He surrendered? It's a catastrophe, all right!"
On Friday, the Najaf uprising, centered on the revered Imam Ali Shrine, appeared to be drawing to an end as militants from al-Sadr's Mahdi Army removed weapons from the holy site. It was unclear how Friday's apparent easing of the crisis in Najaf would affect Khatami's summit call. Kharrazi first raised his meeting idea in a telephone call to Jordanian counterpart Marwan Muasher on Wednesday, but Jordan's response was not immediately made public. The Syrian government as a good lap dog should supported Kharrazi's call, Syria's official news agency quoted an unnamed Foreign Ministry official as saying. Syria has been a loud opponent of the U.S.-led war in Iraq. In Tehran, Iranians staged street protests Friday over the violence in Najaf, the third holiest city to Shiite Muslims after Mecca and Medina in Saudi Arabia, and condemned "the slaughter of the Iraqi people and the desecration of holy sites and cities of the country by the U.S. military in Iraq." The demonstrators also described Iraq's interim government as "illegitimate" and a "puppet" of the United States, IRNA reported, and urged Muslim countries to dispatch a military force to defend Najaf's holy sites.
We can guess how that went over in various Arab capitals.
#1
Thank you for posting this article, tipper. But I wish you had done some cut and paste instead of just linking to the article, because it may get "lost." Amazing AQ strategy related information. Worrisome for the future. Here are some "talking points" that I picked out:
1. bottomless pit of Islamofacists:Nearly 71 Islamic countries are incapable of saying 'no' to the USA but as individuals we can say 'no' to it
2. "I can tell you that 95% of Al-Qa'ida members are Yemenites ⦠including the leader of the Al-Qa'ida organization, whose origins are from Yemen.
3. Iraqi fighters are joined by AQ after the "resistence" is under way? Also, it is worrisome that AQ has become an ideology, a self-perpetuating faith among Muslim youth"A large number of Al-Qa'ida operatives have entered Iraq and they are currently fighting in the ranks of the Iraqi resistance⦠The problem is that today Al-Qa'ida is not an organization in the true sense of the word but only an idea that has become a faith. Many among the youth have begun to believe in Al-Qa'ida's views and beliefs regarding the struggle against America...Al-Qa'ida has Iraqi leaders present on the ground in Iraq and they are not in need of Al-Zarkawi."
4. same old, same old Saudi duplicity But one must ask the question: what causes these youth to take up arms and to commit bombings on Saudi soil? I think that it is the stupid policies of the Saudi government regarding these people. Those who blew up the Al-Muhaya compound spoke in their recorded messages on the internet sites about the fact that they went to the Jihad with the permission and sanction of the state and with the encouragement of Sheikh Sa'd Al-Bureik, Sheikh 'A'idh Al-Qarni, and Sheikh Salman Al-Odeh, as well as many others who incited among these young men. However, when the struggle against the government began, the youth were surprised to find that the same sheikhs who in the past had urged them on, now disavowed them.
6. the goal of AQ and tough decisions for the USA in the future...we see ourselves as "liberators" but AQ sees us as suckers for the bait. Which view is the one that ordinary Muslims hold? "The Al-Qa'ida organization's goal from its inception is to sow conflict between the United States and the Islamic world. I remember that Sheikh Osama bin Laden used to say that we can not, as an organization, continue in quality operations, but rather we must aspire to commit operations that will drag the United States into a regional confrontation with the Islamic peoples."
Posted by: rex ||
08/20/2004 13:10 Comments ||
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#2
We must inflict extreme violence with prejudice.
Thanks for the cliff notes, Rex.
Posted by: Capt America ||
08/20/2004 22:05 Comments ||
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SPECIAL TO WORLD TRIBUNE.COM
Wednesday, August 18th, 2004
TEL AVIV — Palestinian insurgents have increased their use of children for operations against Israel.
Israeli military sources said Palestinian insurgency groups have employed children as young as eight to support insurgency attacks against Israeli targets. They said the youngsters have been asked to smuggle explosives, weapons, or bomb components for such groups as the ruling Fatah movement as well as Hamas and Islamic Jihad.
The use of children by Palestinian insurgency groups has nearly tripled since 2002. The military said that in the first half of 2004, 72 Palestinian minors were arrested at checkpoints on charges of trying to smuggle weapons or components to Palestinian insurgency groups.
In 2001, 27 Palestinian youngsters were arrested at Israeli military checkpoints for insurgency activities, Middle East Newsline reported. The military did not release figures for the arrest of Palestinian minors in 2002 and 2003.
Military sources said the increased use of youngsters was in response to heightened security measures around the West Bank and Gaza Strip. They said Palestinian youngsters will help insurgents for as little as 10 shekels, or more than $2.
Posted by: Mark Espinola ||
08/20/2004 8:41:17 PM ||
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#1
Yet another reason to complete the Wall. When the Paleos teach their children these behaviors, a whole people is lost. The Arafish in his Ramallah aquarium must be proud. What a legacy to pass to future generations and history! Your EU tax euros and other funding at work.
Posted by: Alaska Paul ||
08/20/2004 21:11 Comments ||
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#2
Too bad the predictable resulting international furor discourages Israel from taking any children apprehended in terrorist activities and permanently adopting them out to secret foster homes. This sort of horsesh!t would cease instantly if parents knew that letting their children carry even a length of fuse would remove them from their lives forever. This a most base form of child abuse and nothing else.
#3
These parents are a little on the confused side. They's happy if their little ones get blown up for Allah. But they might have a different outlook if they thought baby ishmael would get adopted by a jew. That'd be like enternal torment with no virgins.
The Moslem Waqf plans to remove another few thousand tons of dirt dug up in the course of its illegal construction/destruction work on the Temple Mount. The dirt contains ancient remnants from the Temple Mount, and the leaders of the Committee to Prevent the Destruction of Temple Mount Antiquities will meet on Sunday with Antiquities Authority Chairman Shuka Dorfman to counter this intention. In the past, the Waqf has received permits from the Prime Minister's Office and the Public Security Ministry to remove dirt of this nature. It is well-known that the Moslem goal is to erase all vestiges of Jewish presence on the Temple Mount, Judaism's most sacred site in the world. Islamic Movement leader Israeli-Arab Sheikh Raed Salah has said that the "use of the Temple Mount is exclusively a Moslem Arab Palestinian right," adding, "There never was any First or Second Temple in the vicinity of the Mosque." Archaeologist Dr. Eilat Mazar has told Arutz-7 that the Waqf's objective is to turn "the entire Temple Mount compound into a large mosque, with absolutely no Jewish, Christian or other presence there. The archaeology there absolutely does not interest them; they merely want to cover up all signs of Jewish history there."
#1
PC sensitivities only apply to non-Jews apparently. Methinks Mecca should be demystified in return...see how they like excavations on their own turf...
LONDON (AP) - Doctors working for the U.S. military in Iraq collaborated with interrogators in the abuse of detainees at Baghdad's Abu Ghraib prison, profoundly breaching medical ethics and human rights, a bioethicist charges in The Lancet medical journal.
As a doc, I can tell you that the Lancet doesn't have the best reputation.
In a scathing analysis of the behavior of military doctors, nurses and medics, University of Minnesota professor Steven Miles calls for a reform of military medicine and an official investigation into the role played by physicians and other medical staff in the torture scandal.
The good Dr. Miles is a member-in-standing of the LLL; consider when reviewing this.
He cites evidence that doctors or medics falsified death certificates to cover up homicides, hid evidence of beatings and revived a prisoner so he could be further tortured. No reports of abuses were initiated by medical personnel until the official investigation into Abu Ghraib began, he found. "The medical system collaborated with designing and implementing psychologically and physically coercive interrogations," Miles said in this week's edition of Lancet. "Army officials stated that a physician and a psychiatrist helped design, approve and monitor interrogations at Abu Ghraib."
The analysis does not shed light on how many doctors were involved or how widespread the problem of medical complicity was, aspects that Miles said he is now investigating.
But you couldn't hold off publishing til you did a proper analysis, now could you.
A U.S. military spokesman said the incidents recounted by Miles came primarily from the Pentagon's own investigation of the abuses. "Many of these cases remain under investigation and charges will be brought against any individual where there is evidence of abuse," said Lt. Col. Barry Johnson, U.S. Army spokesman for detainee operations in Iraq.
In a related matter, two military officials in Washington said Thursday that a high-level Army inquiry will cite medical personnel who knew of abuse at Abu Ghraib but did not report it up the chain of command. The inquiry also will criticize senior U.S. commanders for a lack of leadership that allowed abuses to occur, but finds no evidence they ordered the abuse, said the sources, who spoke condition of anonymity.
"The detaining power's health personnel are the first and often the last line of defense against human rights abuses. Their failure to assume that role emphasizes to the prisoner how utterly beyond humane appeal they are," Miles said in a telephone interview with The Associated Press.
Alternately, how isolated and uncommon abuse really was.
He said military medicine reform needs to be enshrined in international law and include more clout for military medical staff in the defense of human rights.
He should be in charge, of course.
Miles gathered evidence from U.S. congressional hearings, sworn statements of detainees and soldiers, medical journal accounts and press reports to build a picture of physician complicity, and in isolated cases active participation by medical personnel in abuse at the Baghdad prison, as well as in Afghanistan and at the Guantanamo Bay detention center in Cuba.
In one example, cited in a sworn statement from an Abu Ghraib detainee, a prisoner collapsed and was apparently unconscious after a beating. Medical staff revived the detainee and left, allowing the abuse to continue, Miles reported. Depositions from two detainees at Abu Ghraib described an incident in which a doctor allowed a medically untrained guard to sew up a prisoner's wound.
And we all know how reliable the detainees are.
A military police officer reported a medic inserted an intravenous tube into the corpse of a detainee who died while being tortured to create evidence that he was alive at the hospital, Miles said.
At prisons in both Iraq and Afghanistan, "Physicians routinely attributed detainee deaths on death certificates to heart attacks, heat stroke or natural causes without noting the unnatural (cause) of the death," Miles wrote. He cites an example from a Human Rights Watch report in which soldiers tied a beaten detainee to the top of his cell door and gagged him. The death certificate indicated he died of "natural causes ... during his sleep." However, after media coverage, the Pentagon changed the cause of death to homicide by blunt force injuries and suffocation.
Dr. Robert Jay Lifton, a psychiatrist at Harvard University-affiliated Cambridge Hospital who wrote a book on doctors and torture in Nazi Germany, called the Lancet analysis "a very good, detailed description of violations of medical policies involving medical ethics."
Ah yes, the implicit Nazi angle surfaces.
In a July 29 New England Journal of Medicine essay, Lifton urged medics to report what they know about American torture at Abu Ghraib and other prisons, and said in an interview Thursday that a non-military-led investigation of doctors' conduct is needed. "They made choices," he said. "No doctor would have been physically abused or put to death if he or she tried to interrupt that torture. It would have taken courage, but it was a choice they had."
In an editorial comment, The Lancet condemned the behavior of the doctors, saying that despite dual loyalties, they are doctors first and soldiers second. "Health care workers should now break their silence," the journal said. "Those who were involved or witnessed ill-treatment need to give a full and accurate account of events at Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo Bay. Those who are still in positions where dual commitments prevent them from putting the rights of their patients above other interests should protest loudly and refuse cooperation with authorities."
Johnson, the Army spokesman, said the U.S. military "will allow no actions that undermine or compromise medical professionals' commitment to caring for the sick and wounded, regardless of who they are or their circumstances."
Knowing a few military docs and nurses, I have no doubt that they would report abuse immediately. I think this is a bunch of grandstanding done with facts dug up by the Army itself.
Posted by: Steve White ||
08/20/2004 11:49:57 AM ||
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#1
Hmmmm, a 'bioethicist' makes these charges? Where's the salt lick?
#2
I heard about this idiot. He bases his conclusion on questionable sources at best. He is on a fishing expedition and wants something to put in the paper for the next two months. They are trying connect the âBush-to-Hitlerâ dots by any means necessary.
#3
If what this yahoo alleges is correct, shouldn't there be a fresh mass grave near Abu Ghraib full of dead folks with IV marks on their arms? Could the IV have been inserted because the trauma crew was trying to revive somebody? Isn't that SOP in a hospital until a doctor pronounces that a person has died? I'm not sure that the army doctors would have been able to detect waistband marks around the forehead of abused prisoners. I imagine that torture marks could have been easier to detect when the Baathists ran the show. But I don't know that I can fault Sadaam's doctors for failing to report burns caused by high voltage shocks. Especially since the Iraqi physicians were more likely see the prisoners for the purpose of amputating their hands rather than healing their burns.
Posted by: Super Hose ||
08/20/2004 22:51 Comments ||
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#3
However, defining "neo-Zionism" as the movement to expand Israel outside its pre-1967 borders, he condemns some Israeli policy today as an "ongoing rapacity of ethnic cleansing, the violation of the remaining homeland of the remaining Palestinians".
This quote is the only gem in the piece. 1.)RBs-Are his claims of "ethnic cleansing" outside the 1967 borders accurate? 2.) As Honderich is speaking out for what the Palestinians want, is Israeli acceptance of and adherence to the 1967 borders his exact line in the sand behind which Palestinian terror will no longer be morally justified?
I guess I have to learn a bit more about this, but I understood from many comments on Rantburg that pre-determining borders before negotiations was unacceptable; or is it only unacceptable for one side, i.e.,the Israelis and construction of the controversial wall?
#6
A leading philosopher, who has been compared to Bertrand Russell and Jean-Paul Sartre and praised by Noam Chomsky . . .
'Tis all you need to know about the boy.
Posted by: Mike ||
08/20/2004 12:30 Comments ||
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#7
.)RBs-Are his claims of "ethnic cleansing" outside the 1967 borders accurate?
Ethnic cleansing as the word was used wrt to alleged (i put alleged to avoid starting a flamewar here) Serb atrocities in Kosovo, such as taking folks out back and shooting them to encourage the rest to flee, and then putting them on trains to the border. No.
The loony left seems to use the term ethnic cleansing for any Israeli act on the West bank they dont like - tearing down somebodys olive trees is "ethnic cleansing, if its done by Israelis.
At some time in the late '70s there may have been some in the Israeli govt who hoped to see arab pop in the West bank decline - that COULD be seen as explaining Israeli support for expanded higher education for West Bank pals, who had few good career opportunities using such education in the West bank, but many such opportunities in SA and Kuwait. But overeducating people to encourage emigration is harldy the usual definition of ethnic cleansing, and was pretty much given up after the oil price collapse in the 80s sent Pals home from the gulf.
there is a minority on the far right of Israeli politics who would like to see Ethnic cleansing but theyre a small minority.
#2
peggy: Guys like this don't deserve anything good to happen for them. Do not cast pearls before swine......
What would you expect from a bunch of Baathists? Note that the article said Iraqi soccer players, with the implication that all Iraqi soccer players think this way. But the reality is that only 3 of 22 are actually quoted, without any direct statement of what the rest of them think. Sounds like the reporter was fishing for something negative, and found his quotes of the day.
#3
This is like another of those really tight camera angles where they shoot a photo such that twenty or thirty demonstrators fill up most of a photograph. The two dozen people are deliberately shown without any background scenery, which might reveal how few the demonstrators really are. That's essentially what this story is. Note that 3 out of 22 are interviewed, and the implication is that their views are widely echoed by their teammates. But do all 22 think this? And what about the backstory? Were only dedicated Baathists allowed on the soccer team? How is it that these guys are so well-fed and -trained? Could it be that they were involved in some of Saddam's atrocities when they weren't on the soccer field, and earned their privileges in this manner?
#4
The article does more than imply, it says outright that to a man they think along similar lines. Of course that could be a outright distortion but when was the last time you read an article in which 22 people were quoted?? There is just as much a chance that the reporter actually interviewed all the players as there is that he just assumed their opinions.
But that said, I don't really care if it was just one player on that team who felt this way. I just can't fathom the depth of the ingratitude of these men, who spit on their freedom and their ability to play in the Olympics without fear of torture. I don't care if its just one who wishes he could be killing our soldiers instead of playing soccer. Its just sickening that even one person like that gets to enjoy a freedom bought with the lives of 1000 of our soldiers.
I know there much I can do about it except to let people know whats going on. If I was in a position of any kind of power, the guy who wants to be part of the "resistance" in Fallujah would be given his wish. I would eject him from the Games for his murderous comments, he'd be fined in poverty and he would have no other sporting option except to join his bruddas in the "run away" footraces in Sadr City.
#5
peggy: The article does more than imply, it says outright that to a man they think along similar lines. Of course that could be a outright distortion but when was the last time you read an article in which 22 people were quoted??
I think the reporter is lying. It would be nice to have another source for this report, which was written by either Reuters or AFP, not Sports Illustrated.
#6
It would be nice to have another source for this report, which was written by either Reuters or AFP, not Sports Illustrated
Say what? I thought Reuters and AFP were considered left leaning biased MSM and now you are saying they are legitimate news sources??? If anything, a Sports Illustrated reporter would be less politically motivated and therefore, less likely to lie.
Unfortunately, ZH, you are avoiding recognizing the obvious. Apart from the Kurds, the majority of Sunni/Shiite Iraqis put tribal and religious membership as high priorities re: their loyalty and gratitude. They are Arab Muslims. We are infidel occupiers. End of story.
Smell the coffee, ZH. It's embaressing to read that a smart guy like you is grasping for straws. Peggy's #4 rebuttal post is spot on.
Posted by: rex ||
08/20/2004 13:27 Comments ||
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#7
IraqtheModel doubts the balance of the reporting and points out the following pic:
#9
rex: I thought Reuters and AFP were considered left leaning biased MSM and now you are saying they are legitimate news sources???
Sports Illustrated sourced this report from AFP or Reuters. I recall having read and dismissed the same exact report yesterday, before SI bought it from one news agency or the other.
#10
I googled for this news story from Reuters and AFP today, but have not been able to find it. I suspect it's been withdrawn because it is false. Note that Time Warner owns both SI and CNN.
#11
What I find curious about this story is that it is reported as having being conducted by SI, when in fact it is a Reuters or AFP story that appears to have been pulled. (It appeared on the front page of Yahoo - then on CNN two days later).
#12
...Sadir told SI.com through a translator, speaking calmly and directly.
I am not sure that SI used secondary sources for this interview, ZF.
Furthermore, the comments from the 2 named lead Iraqi soccer players and the soccer coach were pretty nasty anti-American, so it would seem to me that these sentiments are pretty representative of the team's mindset.
Posted by: rex ||
08/20/2004 16:13 Comments ||
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#13
Well, a picture of Iraqi athletes with American ones does not mean that they would do the same for our soldiers or the president that liberated them. Outside the US, people constantly make distinctions between the American people and our govt and soldiers as if that made their thinking any less wrongheaded.
But I am very curious to hear about the story being pulled. I found it no trouble this morning. So are you thinking what I am thinking that it was put out there as a dirty trick to undermine Bush taking credit for the two teams participation?
I can't believe that i fell for it (although I didn't blame Bush for it) I guess it was the fact that it was too believable coming from Arabs and also because it was in SI. I actually remember dimissing the possibility that they would have any leftie agenda because they are a sports mag but I didn't even think to suspect the CNN connection. That was pretty clever of them. I feel like a sucker right now.
Its just my luck. The first article I post turns out to be a hoax.
#14
But I am very curious to hear about the story being pulled.
This SI article is not a hoax, nor were other similar articles "pulled." Just google the key players' or coach's name + Bush and you will get hits that are consistent with the sentiments expressed in the SI article that was posted here, if all you want to do is read additional news stories-sheesh-talk about paranoid conspiracy theories.
Here's one from the BBC-hey, you asked for it-: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3584242.stm
"Iraqi footballers' fury at Bush" August 20, 2004 Iraq's successful Olympic football team has launched an outspoken attack on US President George W Bush. Midfielder Salih Sadir said the team - which won its group stage in Greece - was angry it had been used in Mr Bush's re-election campaign ads.
One accused the US leader of committing "many crimes", and another said he would be fighting US troops if not for Athens.
Their comments were made in a US Sports Illustrated magazine interview. ...
BLAH, BLAH, BLAH...
As well, there were other stories published on 8/12 and 8/13 right after the Iraqi vistory over the Portuguese team and the Iraqi coach made similar anti-American comments as was quoted in the SI article. Here's a sample from Time: http://www.time.com/time/arts/article/0,8599,681448,00.html
''A huge victory for Iraq" ...But post-game, thoughts of home dampened the mood. âWe are worried for our families,â says Adnan Hamad Majeed, the Iraqi coach. Weeks after the team qualified for the Olympics, former Coalition Provisional Authority chief Paul Bremer flew into the gutted Peopleâs Stadium in Baghdad for a photo op with the team. âIraq is back,â he kept chanting. Majeed had no use for Bremer that day, or any others â he thinks Iraqi life was better before the American invasion. âNo one is happy in Iraq,â he says. âAll the people are afraid of everything. Theyâre afraid to walk their children to school.â
Posted by: rex ||
08/20/2004 17:23 Comments ||
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#15
Zeyad's little brother Nabil reports that one of the quoted athletes is from Fallujah, and the other is from Najaf:
First I have to say from where did those two players came from:
1-Ahmed Monajed
This player came from Fallujah and after the events in fallujah and the military action over there to clean up the city from the terrorist and the thieves, a lot of innocent people died and a lot of houses destroyed, so let's say that Ahmed was one of the people who hurt from the military action, so of course he will say this and about when he said "I will come back to Iraq and kill the Americans" he said that because of what happened in his home. So I think when he said that he say it to express his feelings.
2- Salih Sadir
This player came from Najaf and maybe he said that because the same thing which has been said by Ahmed Monajed, maybe he said that because his city was destroyed and a lot of innocent people died. And when he said Mr. Bush is using us to win his campaign, this is a bullshit.
#16
In the SI article the soccer players make no secret about their origins, so we don't need Zeyed's little brother , Nabil, to interpret/psychoanalyze the reasons for the players' sentiments, #15. The players are pretty direct and straight forward themselves:
a) Sadir, Wednesday's goal-scorer, used to be the star player for the professional soccer team in Najaf. In the city in which 20,000 fans used to fill the stadium and chant Sadir's name, U.S. and Iraqi forces have battled loyalists to rebel cleric Moktada al-Sadr for the past two weeks. Najaf lies in ruins."I want the violence and the war to go away from the city," says Sadir, 21. "We don't wish for the presence of Americans in our country. We want them to go away."
b) Manajid, 22, who nearly scored his own goal with a driven header on Wednesday, hails from the city of Fallujah. He says coalition forces killed Manajid's cousin, Omar Jabbar al-Aziz, who was fighting as an insurgent, and several of his friends. In fact, Manajid says, if he were not playing soccer he would "for sure" be fighting as part of the resistance.
"I want to defend my home. If a stranger invades America and the people resist, does that mean they are terrorists?" Manajid says. "Everyone [in Fallujah] has been labeled a terrorist. These are all lies. Fallujah people are some of the best people in Iraq."
Posted by: rex ||
08/20/2004 18:14 Comments ||
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#17
rex, notice the 3 Iraqis chosen for the interview make no mention of the many thousands (if not million or more) victims of Saddam's wrath.
SSDD for the Lame Stream Media: Find the guys on the Iraqi team who don't like being liberated and who hate the American "occupiers" even though Iraq is now sovereign and it's their own police on the front lines with Tater.
#18
Jen, as I said before I think this is a pretty straightforward article and the people interviewed are ones you'd expect to be interviewed because of their profile on the team, not because of their anti-Bush, anti-America sentiments.
a) the 3 guys chosen for the interview or who volunteered comments are high profile guys on the team. As much as you and ZF would like to think that that this was a MSM set-up and/or untruthful interview, whatever, I think you guys are in a state of denial. The 2 players are stars of the team and the 3rd person is the coach...who else should the SI guy interview but those 3? Also, SI is not exactly a hotbed for political discussions or theorists. It's a sports magazine for heaven's sake.
b)notice the 3 Iraqis chosen for the interview make no mention of the many thousands (if not million or more) victims of Saddam's wrath
What's your point? These guys are Arab Muslims. Even though Saddam was a brutal guy, he was an Arab and a Muslim, so their hatred of him and his crimes against them are a distant memory because now they are bonded by the focus on a common enemy - invading American infidels. End of story.
That's what I've been telling you airy fairy pie in the sky neo-cons from the get go. In the ME tribal/religious/ethnic loyalties count more than liberation by infidels. That's why the only Iraqis who have been our consistent allies in this war have been the Kurds, because they are not Arabs and they are only nominal Muslims.
Why ignore the obvious? Re-read the speech by the Malaysian PM and the words of OBL's body guard in the article Tipper posted today. They make no secret of what the goals are for global domination by Muslims so they can "right" the wrongs they perceive have been inflicted on them by Jews and America.
These 3 guys have selective memories about the Iran-Iraq War, Saddam's crimes, etc. because they are united in their hatred of infidels. Who are Zayed and Nabil? Have they ever stepped forward from behind their bloggers' "masks?" Do they have their pictures in the newspapers like the soccer players and their coach? No. And that's the problem with the so-called Muslim moderates. They never take risks and we don't even know who they are or even if they exist except in cyberspace. What kind of "leadership' do Zayed and Nabil provide to other Iraqis as opposed to the well publicized comments of soccer player/coach "stars?"
Posted by: rex ||
08/20/2004 19:25 Comments ||
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#19
rex, I'm not trying to be rude, but you're just virtually irrational and pretty close-minded when it comes to this subject of "hearts and minds" in Iraq.
You pays your money and you takes your choice.
Believe these 3 probably Baathist thug Saddam supporters or pay attention to the Iraqi bloggers who could very well be representative of a good portion of their country.
But I'm not going to have this argument with you again today.
No one made your son serve over there--it's a volunteer military.
We appreciate his service and that of all our other wonderful men and women in uniform and maybe he believes in what we're doing to win the WOT even if his dad doesn't.
#20
Jen, I don't want to be rude but I think you've hit the toke pipe too often today. I don't have a kid serving in the military. You have confused me with some other poster. Whatever, I think you are right about our having very different views on the feasibility of winning hearts and minds in the ME. On a related note to the Iraqi soccer players' objections to the GWB advertisements, the US Olympic Committee has asked the Bush Campaign to pull the ads. I'm wondering if it's worth the hassle to continue with these ads? http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/news/archive/2004/08/20/politics1727EDT0653.DTL
"Bush campaign won't stop running Olympics ad despite request from U.S. organizing committee"
Posted by: rex ||
08/20/2004 20:08 Comments ||
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#21
Uh, I don't hit the toke pipe.
The US Olympic Committee asked the Bush campaign to pull ads because it doesn't cut them in on any money.
And Team Bush has refused to do so.
Viva Bush!
#22
And their not mad because the ads show the "unhappy" Iraqi soccer players:
USOC officials had protested that federal law gives them the exclusive rights to the name.
The ad shows a swimmer and the flags of Iraq and Afghanistan.
"In 1972, there were 40 democracies in the world. Today, 120," an announcer says. "Freedom is spreading throughout the world like a sunrise. And this Olympics there will be two more free nations. And two fewer terrorist regimes."
Quite rightly, the Bush campaign is claiming the liberation of 2 countries in his first term as a wonderful accomplishment.
#23
rex, got your reply mixed up with one from Dave D. from a thread yesterday.
No "toke pipe" involved--thanks for the insult anyway!
Dave, it's your son we're so proud of and grateful to for his military service in Iraq..and thanks also to Dad (and Mom) for bringing your boy up right!
#24
I did not say that the US Olymic Committee was asking the Bush Campaign to pull the ad BECAUSE of the soccer players' comments. I said we had exhausted the argument about what the Iraqi soccer players' comments represented and on a related note to the story under discussion here was another article about the GWB advertisement...blah, blah...my point was that the ad was perhaps giving GWB more aggravation and causing him negative publicity instead of what it was meant to do - ie. engender warm and fuzzy feelings in the electorate about liberating Iraqis. It's not whether or not GWB has the right to claim the liberation of Iraq. It's whether or not American voters are going to feel happy about sacrificing blood and money for what appears to be an ungrateful nation. It's whether or not GWB will get into a tussle with the US Olympic Committee over the petty legalities of what he can or cannot do with the use of "Olympic Game" imagery for his re-election campaign.
Posted by: rex ||
08/20/2004 20:36 Comments ||
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#25
Didn't you tell me that you were a Conservative?
I've never heard so much nitpicking and carping from one of our own!
President Bush has a team of expert which includes lawyers and PR people, as well as policy experts and military minds--he's not going to rip off the Olympic Committee.
And liberating Iraq and Afghanistan were strokes of brilliant presidential leadership after the war began on 9/11 and I can only hope that Iran is next!
EFL
WILDWOOD, N.J. -- A live-target paintball game in which patrons take aim at runners dressed as Saddam Hussein and Osama bin Laden has drawn fire from critics who say the game is tasteless and can only encourage violence against Arabs. "We don't need any more games that would encourage people to hate Arabs or kill them," said Aref Assaf, president of the New Jersey Chapter of American Arab Anti-Discrimination Committee. They should just substitute Knute Gingrich and Sean Hannity masks. It is NJ afterwall. W would be a popular choice among the leftist locals but it is doubtfull that the Secret Service would approve.
Posted by: Super Hose ||
08/20/2004 3:43:58 AM ||
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#1
Calm down. Paintball is a game of peace. Please be more sensitive and come learn more about this game.
Iraqi Prime Minister Iyad Allawi pledged on Friday there would be no attack on Najaf's Imam Ali Mosque and urged Moqtada al-Sadr and his militia at the shrine to grasp an "olive branch" for peace. "We are not going to attack the mosque, we are not going to attack Moqtadr al-Sadr in the mosque," Allawi told BBC World Service radio at about 4 a.m. EDT. I hope he's not the single honest man in the Middle East.
"The olive branch is still extended... We are not a warring people. On the contrary, we want a peaceful solution," he added. Allawi's plea came just before a Sadr spokesman indicated the radical cleric was preparing to hand control of the holy site at the heart of a Shi'ite uprising in Iraq. Allawi urged Sadr to seek a political path for his grievances against the government and U.S.-led occupiers. "He can join the political process and he is welcome to do so. We don't have any objections," Allawi said. "If he has any political problems with the government, with the multinational force, then he can be chosen as the leader of Iraq when the elections start in two or three months' time. Then he can do whatever he likes, with nobody trying to quash him."
Allawi accused Sadr's militia of wiring up the shrine with explosives. "The militias have been really on the rampage for the last week or so," he said. "There are militia who are entrenched and embedded in the holy shrine. Some of them are ex-criminals. They have wired up the holy shrine to blow it up." Allawi described the most recent assaults by U.S. and Iraqi forces on Sadr's militia as "clearing operations," taking place away from the shrines and intended to make Najaf safe for residents. "The Iraqi police and military have successfully cleared most of the town of Najaf. The shrines are left," he said.
Posted by: Mrs. Davis ||
08/20/2004 7:23:49 AM ||
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#1
This being Reuters, even with the AP agreeing, I take this with a grain of salt.
Posted by: Edward Yee ||
08/20/2004 8:43 Comments ||
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#2
BAGHDAD (Reuters) - Iraqi police took control of the Imam Ali Mosque in the holy city of Najaf on Friday, after entering the shrine to find that rebel Shi'ite militia loyal to a radical cleric had left, the Interior Ministry said.
"The Iraqi police are now in control of the shrine, along with the religious authorities," said a senior ministry spokesman.
#3
They left? So, did the Iraqis let them leave, or did this shrine/fortress have some hidden underground exit we didn't know about? Allawi is going to regret this.
Posted by: Tom ||
08/20/2004 9:49 Comments ||
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#4
The Madhi Army left town - a large portion of it left toes first.
#5
at least 77 were killed overnight - not clear how many were actually left in the mosque, not clear where they went. Any sources old Spook? I hope we got a bunch on the way out, but even if not, we just hit'em the next time they pop up.
#7
AP reports militia has taken weapons outside shrine, but unarmed militia and civilians (Human shields?) remain in shrine. No mention of IP. Seems to contradict Reuters report. Curioser and curioser.
#11
" 'The Iraqi police are now in control of the shrine, along with the religious authorities,' said a senior ministry spokesman."
Does that mean the police are in control of both the shrine and the religious authorities, or that the police are in control of the shrine and the religious authorities are helping them control it? Helping? Come on.
#13
"Radical Shi'ite cleric Moqtada al-Sadr may have escaped the U.S.-led military siege of the Imam Ali Mosque in Najaf, the Iraqi Interior Ministry said on Friday.
"It is possible he might have escaped overnight," Dr. Sabah Kadhim of the Iraqi Interior Ministry told CNN.
Maybe he turns up in Teheran.
But then I have this nasty thought - what if he NEVER turns up??? Kinda like Jimmy Hoffa, ya know? Allawi - "we are like, so unhappy that Mr. Sadrs missing, and we hope he is well wherever he is" Hmmmm.
#15
Thereâs reporting that under the mosque, and the adjoining cemetery, is a vast complex of catacombs and tunnels that could possibly stretch well outside the mosque proper and surface inside buildings in the surrounding area. Itâs highly likely that Tater, and many of his followers, have used them for storage of supplies, ammo and access/egress from the mosque.
#16
RN: Thereâs reporting that under the mosque, and the adjoining cemetery, is a vast complex of catacombs and tunnels that could possibly stretch well outside the mosque proper and surface inside buildings in the surrounding area.
Makes a lot of sense. A lot of Christian monasteries were also constructed in this manner, so that the faithful could seek shelter from bandit raids or government persecution.
#20
If you notice the post I had the other day about how the Iraqi SF were going to breach the compound, you'll noticed I said they'd not be going over the walls - they'd be coming from underground - sewers to be exact. There are a large set of ancient tunnels below the area, some are catacombs, some are water (with cisterns) ans some are drainage. Many of them are quite large.
This is likely how Sadr exfiltrated the compound.
Typical - he exhorted his guys to fight, got a lot of them killed and captured, while he slipped out the (figurative) back door. Hopefully we got all the crew served weaponry - and are busy tracing it back to the Iranians.
Any fighting left is simply the remnants of the Madhi Army trying to break out of the ring the Marines and 1st Cav have put in place. They'll die. Or surrender once they realize they have been yet again sold out by Sadr.
This guy Sadr is just a gangster wearing mullah's clothing.
#21
AFP correspondent, allegedly in mosque, says militia still there. USMC cant confirm that Iraqi police are inside. Neither can Iraqi National Security Advisor, who says cant reach Najaf governor by phone. Earlier reports said quiet, now reports of continued fighting.
#22
Fox reported about an hour ago that US Mil Cmd said that no US troops had entered the shrine and neither had Iraqi forces. In effect, they denied the reported Allawi claim that the Iraqis had taken the shrine and arrested 400 muhji Tots.
#23
The fate of a radical Shi'ite rebellion in the holy city of Najaf was uncertain Friday amid disputed reports that Iraqi police had gained control of the Imam Ali Mosque. A senior Interior Ministry spokesman said police entered the shrine and arrested hundreds of militiamen loyal to rebel cleric Moqtada al-Sadr to end a two-week revolt that left hundreds dead and helped drive world oil prices to record highs.
But soon after the seizure was announced, a senior Sadr aide said the statement was false.
"The shrine is in the control of the Mehdi Army. The Mehdi Army will resist any attempt by the Iraqi police to control the shrine," said Sheikh Ahmad al-Sheibani, a senior commander in Sadr's Mehdi Army militia. "Procedures are under way to hand over control of the shrine to Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani," he added, referring to Iraq's most influential Shi'ite cleric.
Posted by: Steve ||
08/20/2004 12:03 Comments ||
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#24
maybe they do it on purpose, so that the tot-groupies don't know if they should do anything or not until it's all over.???
Procedures are under way to hand over control of the shrine to Ayatollah
That's a pretty good result. I wonder if they are somehow "making it happen".
Posted by: B ||
08/20/2004 12:15 Comments ||
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#25
possibilities
1. Inexperienced Iraqi flak jumped the gun, on an operation thats not done yet/ Reminds me of the old joke: Jake sees his old pal Moe, whos business was on the rocks Jake:"Moe, i heard about the fire at your store, Im so sorry" Moe: "Sssh, its not till next week"
2. theres a deal in the works, but some folks in the Iraqi govt think the deal is too soft, and are actively trying to sabotage it
3. The shrines a big place, with different sub-buildings (thanks for pics, Dot com) and underground areas (thanks for info, old Spook)
and there ARE IP somewhere in there, and hundreds of prisoners, but the games far from over
#26
latest from reuters: Witnesses said that by late afternoon, civilians were wandering around inside Iraq's holiest Shi'ite site while workers swept marble floors. There were no police or armed men from the Mehdi Army of radical cleric Moqtada al-Sadr in sight.
#27
AP But in the latest twist in the tortuous search for a resolution to the crisis, al-Sadr and al-Sistani aides late Friday night were still trying to agree on how to transfer control. An aide to al-Sistani insisted al-Sadr's followers must completely leave the site before religious authorities would take the keys to the shrine that symbolize control.
"If they want to vacate the holy shrine compound and close the doors, then the office of the religious authority in holy Najaf will take these keys," Sheik Hamed Khafaf said from London, where al-Sistani was undergoing medical treatment. "Until now, this hasn't happened."
#29
1. Inexperienced Iraqi flak jumped the gun, on an operation thats not done yet/ Reminds me of the old joke: Jake sees his old pal Moe, whos business was on the rocks Jake:"Moe, i heard about the fire at your store, Im so sorry" Moe: "Sssh, its not till next week"
LOL! My dad's version was the big banner that proclaimed a Pre-Fire Sale.
Tunnels run underground to nearby buildings.
We can have equipment that can do soundings to locate tunnels. Once the tunnels are under the street outside the mosque, dig and collapse them leaving something obnoxious in odor back in the direction back towards the mosque. This prevents escape. Then ring the mosque as has been suggested, and nail anythine/anyone that moves, along with the above mentioned power and water shutdown.
The establishment is trying to figure out whether the Pashtun will join up with the Baloch in the event of a full-scale military operation against Islamabad
The Baloch nationalist leader Sardar Attaullah Mengal is not mincing his words nowadays. Last week he was in Islamabad and declared open war on Pakistan army and the Frontier Corps.
How'd he make it home alive?
Was it just bluster?
Is that a trick question?
The military top brass and the interior ministry don't think so. Small wonder that officials are in a clutch debating the many alarming questions the situation in Balochistan presents to Islamabad. The hot question for the establishment is whether the army and the paramilitary should launch a full-fledged military operation in Balochistan a la 1974 to flush out the "miscreants" Sources in the interior ministry say Islamabad is looking back at that period and trying to draw lessons. "We don't want any surprises and we certainly do not want this thing [an operation] to backfire," says a high official. The Baluchistan insurgency is heating up again. Inspired by the independance of Bangladesh a few years earlier, the Baluchs launched a seperatist campaign which was crushed by the Army. It's possible Afghanistan is playing a covert role here to pay Pakistan back for supporting Taliban and Hek.
Yet another question being debated in the official circles is the likely reaction of the Pashtun nationalists to a military operation in Balochistan? Will the Pashtun activists, who have been traditionally fighting the Baloch, join the armed resistance unleashed by the Baloch or will they step aside and let the Baloch fight the army? In the seventies the Pashtun had stayed away from the insurgency. "That may not be the case now," says an observer who thinks the common cause could be the bad deal given the province by Islamabad. Some officials say the government is receiving mixed signals from the Pashtun nationalist forces, particularly since the start of the 'limited military operation' in Balochistan in the wake of the violence. The troubling fact for Islamabad is that this is the first time the Baloch and the Pashtun have jointly launched a struggle for their rights. "This bothers the government. It's better to keep them divided. The establishment doesn't like the fact that the two warring ethnic groups have joined hands on the platform of the Pakistan Oppressed Nations Movement," says an analyst. This fact, confirm official sources, has so far blocked any major decision on the military operation in Balochistan. The PONM consists of the Balochs, Pashtuns, Sindis and Serakis; who are opposed to the Punjabis who have dominated the army and bureaucracy since independance, although Musharraf isn't a Punjabi. Continued on Page 49
Posted by: Paul Moloney ||
08/20/2004 12:08:19 AM ||
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Has this got legs, Paul? I've been thinking about this all day, off and on, and realized I'd better get my question there before you conk out for the day!
Just when it seems that Musharraf is really pressing and having serious success in WoT...
Can you say how much or little of the sentiment behind this is related to Musharraf's support for WoT? Are we defining true PakiWaki Islam in PONM? Or is this just factionalism, power-base politics, etc?
#2
The PONM has nothing to do with Islamism, in fact of the ethnic groups involved in it, only the Pashtuns have any serious problem with extremism, the rest are known for following Sufi style Islam and avoiding Jihadi groups.
It is just ethnic-based nationalism, but probably doesn't provide any real threat to the Pakistani state, since the Army is half a million strong and showed in Bangladesh that they will not let any region of Bangladesh secece without a fight.
So I would consider these sentiments unrelated to the WoT, and yet it is hardly a positive development.
Posted by: Paul Moloney ||
08/20/2004 19:29 Comments ||
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#3
Isn't Baluchistan where KSM, Ramsey Clark Yosef and the other original WTC bombers came from? Doesn't Laurie Mylroie make it the center of militant anti western Islamofascism?
Posted by: Mrs. Davis ||
08/20/2004 19:33 Comments ||
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#4
They were Kuwaitis of Baluch descent. The only Islamofascism in Baluchistan comes from the Pashtun migrants and Afghan refugees who number in the millions in the area.
Posted by: Paul Moloney ||
08/20/2004 20:20 Comments ||
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#5
Thanks, Paul. I've all but given up on understanding all of the factions and tribal / ethnic groups in Pakistan... so when I see a story like this (which sounds ominous for what passes for stability there) I can't tell how serious it is. The roster of players is the ultimate alphabet soup - and a full-time job! You must have a huge spreadsheet or DB to track these guys. And I don't know whether to marvel at Musharraf's staying power or wonder at his sanity for wanting to be in the spot he's in - President / Dictator - whatever it is, heh.
You make sense out of chaos - and that's no mean feat. Thanks, again!
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