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Bomb kills 22 in Iraq bank queue
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Britain
Mark Steyn: Don't offend the horse
What is "Thames Valley"? Where is she? To those of us who do not gambol within its borders, "Thames Valley" seems ever more of a fantastical fairyland. I hasten to add I don't mean "fairyland" in the eighty-quid-fine-for-homophobic-hate-speech sense, though I'll come to the matter of the "gay police horse" in a moment. Rather, "Thames Valley" seems a state of mind - like Neverland: "It's not on any chart / You must find it in your heart."

Yes, yes, I know there's a river called the Thames and the strip of land running along each bank qualifies as a valley, but as a legal entity "Thames Valley" appears to have been conjured out of thin air. Back in 1968, some fellow abolished the constabularies of real places like Buckinghamshire, Oxfordshire and Berkshire and decreed that henceforth these ancient counties were now mere provinces of the "Thames Valley Police Authority": "It's not on any map / You must enter its speed trap."

The ambitious Home Office bureaucrat is very partial to these fictional jurisdictions. One thinks of "West Mercia", which is around the Welsh border somewhere, just west of "East Mercia" presumably, which they're keeping in reserve for the next pointless constabulary reorganisation. Everywhere else I've ever lived, the police forces bear some approximation to reality: the New Hampshire state troopers don't patrol Vermont, the Surete du Quebec don't do drug busts in Labrador.

When you want to call the cops, you don't need to think, "Hang on, am I in South Mercia or West Avon?" The invented identities of British administration seem to be part of a conscious decision to emphasise their remoteness from the citizenry, if not their wholesale secession from the real world.

Secure in their fairyland federation, "Thames Valley Police" patrol a wild fantastical landscape of the imagination that intersects only fitfully and awkwardly with reality. Exactly a year ago, thousands of Royal Ascot racegoers were stuck in sweltering heat for hours on end due to Thames Valley's new improved state-of-the-art "traffic management".

Royal Ascot's been going on same time, same place for a couple of centuries, but in Thames Valley's capable hands it was transformed into one of those freak natural disasters no one saw coming. This year's meeting, due to building work at Ascot, will be taking place at York, beginning today. But no doubt Thames Valley Police will still lock down the whole of Berkshire all week as a security precaution.

When they install speed cameras, serious accidents increase. When an estranged husband threatens his wife, they send round helicopters and "armed response vehicles" and contingents of officers in full body-armour, and then let them sit around at a safe distance until the estranged husband has finished killing everyone in the house.

That's what they did when Vicky Horgan and her sister were shot and bleeding to death in Highmoor Cross, declining even to enter the village, never mind the house. And that's what they did when Julia Pemberton called 999 at 7.10 one evening, racing round in response, arriving at 7.50 and then waiting until 1.20 in the morning before deciding it was safe to enter. It was: Mrs Pemberton and her son had both been dead for some hours.

As we now know, if you require a less desultory response from Thames Valley Police, the best advice is to speculate about the sexuality of the officer's horse. As my colleague Sam Leith reported yesterday, late in the evening on Bank Holiday Monday, Sam Brown, an Oxford University undergraduate, inquired of a mounted policeman on Cornmarket Street: "Do you know your horse is gay?" Also, "I hope you're comfortable riding a gay horse."

Within minutes, young Mr Brown was surrounded by six officers and a fleet of patrol cars, handcuffed and tossed in the slammer overnight, after which he was fined £80. A spokesperson for Thames Valley Police told the student newspaper Cherwell that the "homophobic comments" were "not only offensive to the policeman and his horse, but any members of the general public in the area."

"Offensive to his horse"? Well, you never know. If any constabulary is keeping a full-time equine psychologist on staff, it's bound to be Thames Valley. Even now, the horse may be on one month's stress leave at home on full pay, with his feet up listening to Judy Garland on his iPod. Whoops, sorry. We don't know whether the horse in question is, in fact, gay. It may be just the way he trots. Whoops, there goes another 80 quid. What I'm getting at is that, even under a generous interpretation of "homophobia", it's hard to see why simply identifying the horse as gay should be a criminal offence.

Mr Brown didn't say: "Tell your gay horse to stop coming on to me" or "I couldn't get near Royal Ascot last year because those gay horses were queening around and backing up traffic." Few of us would appreciate inappropriate speculation about the sexuality of our mounts, yet even in Thames Valley the offence of hippophobia is surely a stretch.

Caligula made his horse a consul but only Thames Valley has made its horses' sexuality a hate crime. Had Mr Brown gone on to slur one of the police cars as obviously homosexual, would Thames Valley's spokesperson have complained that the homophobic comments were deeply offensive to the officer and his vehicle?

Pondering Mr Brown's query about whether the copper was "comfortable riding a gay horse", Sam Leith wondered whether the Balliol man was suggesting the officer was an "unreconstructed homophobe". But the point is that, though the "homophobes" and "systemic racists" of the constabulary have metamorphosed virtually overnight into the most gung-ho celebrants of diversity, they are indeed "unreconstructed" - thus, the somewhat unpleasant heavyhandedness that has long been a feature of British policing is now deployed in the service of zero tolerance homophobia crackdowns.

In these touchy times, are Thames Valley Police really the people you want enforcing the more nebulous sections of an already poorly drawn "Incitement to Religious Hatred" Act? With that in mind, remember that the mounted section use mostly Irish Draughts. Things could have gone a whole lot worse for Mr Brown if he'd said: "I hope you're comfortable riding a gay Arab."
Posted by: Steve || 06/14/2005 11:38 || Comments || Link || [4 views] Top|| File under:

#1  I cannot believe the horse was offended. I call Ace a Goober all the time and he doesn't care. We had to shoot a scene 3 times last Saturday morning around 3:00AM because he yawned twice and even the Director called him a Goober but he still didn't care. As long as they are properly fed and cared for horses don't care what they are called.
Posted by: Deacon Blues || 06/14/2005 12:07 Comments || Top||

#2  As long as they are properly fed and cared for horses don't care what they are called.

That's pretty much true for me too.
Posted by: BrerRabbit || 06/14/2005 14:39 Comments || Top||

#3  Shouldn't the horse be fined for taking offense at receiving the honor of being mistaken for gay? Shouldn't the officers be fined for assuming that being called gay is an insult? Whee, this game is fun.
Posted by: BH || 06/14/2005 17:14 Comments || Top||

#4  Director called him a Goober but he still didn't care. As long as they are properly fed and cared for horses don't care what they are called.

ima call bs, maybe goober dont but i take offend where my sweet feed?
Posted by: Apache || 06/14/2005 20:18 Comments || Top||


Europe
In U.S., a withering view of Europe as a sideshow
Has Europe become a sideshow? Perhaps this town of haunting but also melancholy beauty is not a bad place to pose that question, for it offers at every corner some reminder of the way that great power and wealth may pass, leaving nothing but their golden shell. It is now just over 200 years since the 118th and last Doge of Venice, Lodovico Manin, surrendered to the slogan-touting revolutionary army of Napoleon Bonaparte, so putting an end to the Most Serene Republic in the fastness of its lagoon, a power whose often enlightened commercial sway had stretched for centuries across the eastern Mediterranean. "Take this, I shall not be needing it again," Manin said on Friday, May 12, 1797, as he handed the Doge's close-fitting white linen cap to his valet. Sometimes it is clear when things come to an end. At others, the lines of history are blurred, less demarcations than smudges.

So it is in a Europe today that does not know if the dominant and fruitful postwar idea of "ever closer union" is now dead. When European Union leaders meet this week in Brussels, they will face for the first time the fact that tens of millions of Europeans have turned their back on a Union whose geography, identity and ambition seemed murky. How they will respond to the French and Dutch rejection of a proposed European constitution is unclear, but it is a safe bet that muddling through will be the favored course. The 25-member Union will not unravel. Still, as any visitor to Venice is reminded, a power that has lost the elixir of ambition is a power condemned to inexorable decline.

Already, Europe is viewed with a cynicism often bordering on contempt in some American circles. The neoconservative view of the Continent - feckless, wimpy, legalistic, aging, tired - is well known. But even among more mainstream Republicans, and within the Democratic Party, there are those for whom Europe poses one question above all: Why bother? At a recent meeting here of the Council for the United States and Italy, a group that brings together influential folk from both sides of the Atlantic, America's often withering view of Europe was as clear as the light on the lagoon.

That view may be summarized as follows: a Continent reluctant to spend on defense, offering only "postmodernist" armies useful enough as peacekeepers but next to useless as warriors, given to earnest blah-blah about the pre-eminence of international law, inhabited by a declining and evermore aged citizenry living in overregulated economies that have not shown significant growth for at least five years.

Contrast that image with another offered at the meeting: that of an India growing at over 7 percent a year, inhabited by more than 500 million people under the age of 25, busy buying hundreds of advanced aircraft, convinced that armies are still created to fight, churning out English-speaking high-tech graduates by the million each year, and persuaded by Islamic terrorism that its strategic goals and America's are often identical or at least complementary.

So, which of these parts of the world is more worthy of the attention of the United States? Which is a compelling affair: the intensifying and fast-changing relationship with India, or the largely stagnant alliance with Europe that served above all a cold-war strategic challenge now overcome? Beyond India, of course, lie other issues demanding of U.S. attention.

China, with its own growth story and welter of staggering statistics that suggest its challenge to American supremacy must be taken seriously. A low-intensity Iraqi war that has already taken a significant toll. The attempt to ignite and manage a democratic transformation of the Middle East that is portrayed as central to long-term American security.

In this world, Europe slips down the list. It often looks more complicated than compelling. It is sufficiently split, sufficiently stable, and sufficiently stalled for back-burner treatment to seem most appropriate. The fact is that the French and Dutch votes have left the European Union in an awkward halfway house that hardly seems a credible basis for any revitalization. With a shared currency, the euro, but an interrupted process of political integration, the Continent finds itself with one foot in transnational federalism and another outside it.

Already, the strains of this situation are showing, not least in Italy, where the economy has contracted in recent quarters. In a country that used to be able to offset its structural weaknesses through a steady devaluation of the lira, the constraints of a single euro currency placing Italy on the same playing field as Germany have proved damaging.
Italy is an extreme case, but throughout the stagnant euro zone, reforms to render the economies more flexible, dynamic and effective appear urgent, because only growth and the creation of jobs will rekindle belief in the European Union. How that will be achieved when the new French prime minister, Dominique de Villepin, declares that, for France, "globalization cannot be our destiny" is unclear.

Such comments suggest that sideshow may not be an inappropriate tag for Europe these days. Any country or area holding itself aloof from the technology-driven demands of global competitiveness and integration can only be a sideshow to the main currents of early 21st century history.

In this light, it is interesting to note John Julius Norwich's description of the once all-conquering Venice that surrendered to Napoleon: "The fact of the matter was that Venice was utterly demoralized. It was so long since she had been obliged to make a serious military effort that she had lost the will that makes such efforts possible. Peace, the pursuit of pleasure, the love of luxury, the whole spirit of dolce far niente has sapped her strength. She was old and tired; she was also spoilt."
Posted by: Steve || 06/14/2005 11:04 || Comments || Link || [2 views] Top|| File under:

#1  I almost see western europe going through the same thing it did during the collapse of the western roman empire. The people, tired of constant war and corruption, just gave up and let the barbarians have what they wanted as long as the people were left alone.
The modern population is tired, spoiled and rapidly shrinking and growing old. Will they let the Islamic "barbarian" forces take over for peace? Only time will tell...
Posted by: mmurray821 || 06/14/2005 11:51 Comments || Top||

#2  Not with a bang, but a wimper (or maybe an allan akbar).
Posted by: Spot || 06/14/2005 11:53 Comments || Top||

#3  "a Continent reluctant to spend on defense, offering only "postmodernist" armies useful enough as peacekeepers but next to useless as warriors, given to earnest blah-blah about the pre-eminence of international law, inhabited by a declining and evermore aged citizenry living in overregulated economies that have not shown significant growth for at least five years".

Yep, that pretty much sums it up for me!
Posted by: Bobby || 06/14/2005 12:22 Comments || Top||

#4  Peace, the pursuit of pleasure, the love of luxury, the whole spirit of dolce far niente has sapped her strength.

Sounds like he could be describing blue states in general...
Posted by: Bomb-a-rama || 06/14/2005 12:24 Comments || Top||

#5  To be in the sideshow, you need to be part of the circus. I don't think Europe's part of the circus anymore.

(Unless it's one of those idiotic French circuses.)
Posted by: Robert Crawford || 06/14/2005 12:50 Comments || Top||

#6  Unfortunately, Bomb-a-rama, is his description only Europe-specific or as accurate of us (not just blue states, but the whole nation) as a whole? :(
Posted by: Edward Yee || 06/14/2005 13:29 Comments || Top||

#7  It's a mistake to view it as Europe in demise. Individually, any of the nations could rise again, especially Germany and Britian. And new Europe will be a force. Like a drug addict, sometimes you have to hit rock bottom before you can work your way back up.
Posted by: 2b || 06/14/2005 14:00 Comments || Top||

#8  Since when didn't we view Europe as a sideshow? For crying out loud, Britain has naked bike rides, France manages to sink Greenpeace, and the most powerful court in the land is located in the Hague. At least we keep nudes on the beaches and sportgames!
Posted by: Charles || 06/14/2005 15:33 Comments || Top||

#9  Europe is curerently a side show and waste of our money and time. They got GWB's message and ignored it. I am all for a change of our relationship with them. They just don't get it.
Posted by: Sock Puppet 0’ Doom || 06/14/2005 15:43 Comments || Top||

#10  Poland is not yet lost.



Course few of my kidz could find it ona map.
Posted by: Shipman || 06/14/2005 16:20 Comments || Top||

#11  turn right at Gdansk
Posted by: Frank G || 06/14/2005 17:32 Comments || Top||


Home Front: WoT
Daniel Pipes - Saudis Import Slaves to America
Homaidan Ali Al-Turki, 36, and his wife, Sarah Khonaizan, 35, appear to be a model immigrant couple. Having arrived in the United States in 2000, they live with their four children in an upscale Denver suburb. Al-Turki is a graduate student in linguistics at the University of Colorado, specializing in Arabic intonation and focus prosody. He donates money to the Linguistic Society of America and is CEO of Al-Basheer Publications and Translations, a bookstore specializing in titles about Islam.
Last week, however, the FBI accused the couple of enslaving an Indonesian woman in her early 20s. For four years, reads the indictment, they created "a climate of fear and intimidation through rape and other means." The slave woman cooked, cleaned, took care of children, and more for little or no pay, fearing that if she did not obey, "she would suffer serious harm."
The two Saudis face charges of forced labor, aggravated sexual abuse, document servitude, and harboring an alien. If found guilty, they could spend their remaining lives in prison. The government also wants to seize the couple's Al-Basheer bank account to pay their former slave $92,700 in back wages.
It's a shocking instance, especially for a graduate student and religious bookstore owner — but not a particularly rare one. Here are other examples of enslavement, all involving Saudi royals or diplomats living in the United States.

In 1982, a Miami judge issued a warrant to search Prince Turki Bin Abdul Aziz's 24th-floor penthouse to determine if he was holding Nadia Lutefi Mustafa, an Egyptian woman, against her will. Turki and his French bodyguards prevented a search from taking place, then won retroactive diplomatic immunity to forestall any legal unpleasantness.

In 1988, the Saudi defense attaché in Washington, Col. Abdulrahman S. Al-Banyan, employed a Thai domestic, Mariam Roungprach, until she escaped his house by crawling out a window. She later told how she had been imprisoned there, did not get enough food, and was not paid. Interestingly, her work contract specified that she could not leave the house or make telephone calls without her employer's permission.

In 1991, Prince Saad Bin Abdul-Aziz Al Saud and his wife, Princess Noora, lived on two floors of the Ritz-Carlton Houston. Two of their servants, Josephine Alicog of the Philippines and Sriyani Marian Fernando of Sri Lanka, filed a suit against the prince, alleging they were for five months held against their will, "by means of unlawful threats, intimidation and physical force," they were only partially paid, denied medical treatment, and suffered mental and physical abuse.

In March 2005, a wife of Saudi Prince Mohamed Bin Turki Alsaud, Hana Al Jader, 39, was arrested at her home outside of Boston on charges of forced labor, domestic servitude, falsifying records, visa fraud, and harboring aliens. Al Jader stands accused of compelling two Indonesian women to work for her by making them believe "that if they did not perform such labor, they would suffer serious harm." If convicted, Al Jader faces up to 140 years in jail and $2.5 million in fines.

There are many other similar instances, for example, the Orlando escapades of Saudi princesses Maha al-Sudairi and Buniah al-Saud. Joel Mowbray tells of twelve female domestics "trapped and abused" in the households of Saudi dignitaries or diplomats.

Why is this problem so acute when it comes to affluent Saudis? Four reasons come to mind. Although slavery was abolished in the kingdom in 1962, the practice still flourishes there. Ranking Saudi religious authorities endorse slavery; for example, Sheikh Saleh Al-Fawzan insisted recently that "Slavery is a part of Islam" and whoever wants it abolished he called "an infidel."
The U.S. State Department knows about the forced servitude in Saudi households and laws exist to combat this scourge but, as Mowbray argues, it "refuses to take measures to combat it." Finally, Saudis know they can get away with nearly any misbehavior. Their embassy provides funds, letters of support, lawyers, retroactive diplomatic immunity, former U.S. ambassadors as troubleshooters, and even aircraft out of the country; it also keeps pesky witnesses away.

Given the U.S. government's louche attitude toward the Saudis, slavery in Denver, Miami, Washington, Houston, Boston, and Orlando hardly comes as a surprise. Only when Washington more robustly represents American interests will Saudi behavior improve.
Posted by: Steve || 06/14/2005 10:55 || Comments || Link || [7 views] Top|| File under:

#1  Oh, how muslim of them!
Posted by: bigjim-ky || 06/14/2005 11:18 Comments || Top||

#2  Brings to mind the other notable saudi imports: 1) oil; 2) terrorist; 3) intolerant religious education; 4) lots of investments; 5) university students who are often short on intelligence and long on cashflow; 6) halfwit royalty able to spend with abandon; and 7) the influence that money buys. Did you say Koran desecration? What happened to the Korans of these people? I need to know. No, not the slaves. I want to know about the Korans of those poor pious slavemasters.
Posted by: Abu Al-Taxi || 06/14/2005 11:55 Comments || Top||

#3  Slavery is not endorsed by Islam, in fact, the abolishment of it is. Repeatedly freeing of slaves are options in Islamic law, never there is a mention of someone loosing their freedome (becoming slave) as punishment. Note that on the olden days, slavery was an accepted part of life in the area and in other parts of the world, but in Islam, the preference is to free slaves, not taking them. The Sheikh is clearly wrong.
Posted by: Someone || 06/14/2005 12:01 Comments || Top||

#4  I disagree, someone. Islam is all about submission, and subjugating others. Even the name Abdullah (Abdallah) means Abd (slave) of Allah. The natural order of things is for everyone to serve the alpha male in this society.
Posted by: Seafarious || 06/14/2005 12:14 Comments || Top||

#5  You sure?
Bukhari 3-#765 Narrated Kuraib: the freed slave of Ibn 'Abbas, that Maimuna bint Al-Harith told him that she manumitted a slave-girl without taking the permission of the Prophet. On the day when it was her turn to be with the Prophet, she said, "Do you know, O Allah's Apostle, that I have manumitted my slave-girl?" He said, "Have you really?" She replied in the affirmative. He said, "You would have got more reward if you had given her (i.e. the slave-girl) to one of your maternal uncles."

How many slaves did Big Mo have? After all he did get 20% of all the booty. And what to make of all those verses about capturing slaves in raids and wars and rapng them?
Posted by: ed || 06/14/2005 12:17 Comments || Top||

#6  The Sheikh is clearly wrong.

And yet he's a ranking religios figure in Saudi Arabia and you're an anonymous commentor.
Posted by: Robert Crawford || 06/14/2005 13:13 Comments || Top||

#7  Taqqyia alert.
Posted by: Ptah || 06/14/2005 13:28 Comments || Top||

#8  I thought islam menat peaceful slaves?
Posted by: Shipman || 06/14/2005 13:40 Comments || Top||

#9  I see, so using a weak hadith to trump what is in numerous places in the Koran is OK?, i think not. Islam is about submission to god not to other people. And if the Sheikh is using an argument like this than he is definitely wrong. Using a religion to controll people and to hold on to power is also wrong. I might be an anonymous commentor , but that does not reduce my chances to be right, does it?
Posted by: Someone || 06/14/2005 13:58 Comments || Top||

#10  I might be an anonymous commentor , but that does not reduce my chances to be right, does it?

When stacked against known facts about the practice of Islam, and the words of a government-funded religious authority in the Islamic country in all the world, your chances to be right were pretty slim in any case.

I see, so using a weak hadith to trump what is in numerous places in the Koran is OK?

Give us a citation, then. Should be easy for such a scholar as yourself.

(Ptah -- I think you're right. But it's rather clumsy taqqyia. Keerist, you'd think we didn't know about Mohammed's own life.)
Posted by: Robert Crawford || 06/14/2005 14:14 Comments || Top||

#11  "When stacked against known facts about the practice of Islam, and the words of a government-funded religious authority in the Islamic country in all the world, your chances to be right were pretty slim in any case."

according to the govt funded chief rabbis in Israel, the Conservative Judaism I practice is heresy. They are wrong.

Text based religious traditions often have diverse opinions on points of law. So far "Someones" comments on Islamic law in this thread have been measured and on topic. I would appreciate the chance to learn from him - lets PLEEZE not chase him away - not until (and if) he starts trolling. We're trying to win people over, remember??
Posted by: liberalhawk || 06/14/2005 14:35 Comments || Top||

#12  "Islam is all about submission" to Allah, not to man.

abd in adallah is clearly the same semitic root as Hebrew Aved - servant, slave. Avodah can mean work or service in that sense, but it can also mean service to G-d - the Temple sacrifices, which are ordained in the bible are called avodah. Avodah is later used to mean prayer in general. I suspect Jews for Jesus uses the word avodah to refer to Christs sacrifice. So I would be careful in denigrating this ancient Semitic word.
Posted by: liberalhawk || 06/14/2005 14:38 Comments || Top||

#13  Repeatedly freeing of slaves are options in Islamic law

The implications of big-s Someone's statement are: 1) Slaves are owned, and 2) Under Islam, one may, not must free them. This contrasts with most of the rest of the world, where it is forbidden to hold a person in chattel slavery, or even bond servitude. Ever. Under any circumstances.

Little-s someone, we know you aren't the one engaging in this sad exercise in taqiyah.
Posted by: trailing wife || 06/14/2005 14:39 Comments || Top||

#14  avedim chayenu, atah bnei chorin

once we were slaves, but now we are free (passover haggadah)

But

Al shlosha dvarim haolam omed , al hatorah, al haavodah, v al gimlut chasidim.

There are three things on which the world stands - on Torah, on prayer, and on deeds of piety. (Talmud)
Posted by: liberalhawk || 06/14/2005 14:41 Comments || Top||

#15  Ok, I googled this up for you, there about 7 references here in preference of freeing a slave. I am sure there are more.

http://www.cyberistan.org/islamic/slavesq.htm

And again, me being an insignificant, small, etc .. does not reduce my chances to be right, it only reduces my chances of surviving being right and talking about it.


Posted by: Glese Whaiper2938 || 06/14/2005 14:43 Comments || Top||

#16  1) Slaves are owned, and 2) Under Islam, one may, not must free them.

which is consistent with Jewish law in the Talmud, and the views of St. Paul.

This contrasts with most of the rest of the world, where it is forbidden to hold a person in chattel slavery, or even bond servitude. Ever. Under any circumstances.

which view arose as part of the 18th century enlightenment, and has been law in ALL of the United States only since 1865. It is also law now in ALL muslim countries - it is violated in many of muslim countries, but in many non-muslim countries as well.
Posted by: liberalhawk || 06/14/2005 14:43 Comments || Top||

#17  correction - under Jewish law, slaves (at least Jewish ones) are to be freed in the jubilee year, which comes every 49 years.

HOwever Roman slaves were NOT so freed, and this bothered St. Paul not one bit.
Posted by: liberalhawk || 06/14/2005 14:46 Comments || Top||

#18  IE slaves under Roman law, not specifically Roman slaves held by Jews
Posted by: liberalhawk || 06/14/2005 14:47 Comments || Top||

#19  Someone,

Is that why it took the saudi vermin until 1963 to abolish slavery?
Posted by: TMH || 06/14/2005 14:53 Comments || Top||

#20  Someone,

Is that why the muslim vermin went to Africa to hunt Africans like animals and sell them into slavery?
Posted by: TMH || 06/14/2005 14:56 Comments || Top||

#21  Gentle? Is that you?
Posted by: CrazyFool || 06/14/2005 15:01 Comments || Top||

#22  If slavery is so un-muslim, why did Soddy not ban slavery until the 1960s? Slaves have always been part of islam, read some history.
BTW LH - St. Paul wrote: There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus (as he was expecting the second-coming at any time and such distinctions mattered no more).
Posted by: Spot || 06/14/2005 15:27 Comments || Top||

#23  I dont know that slavery is unmuslim, any more than its unJewish or UnChristian. It allowed, but freeing slaves is mentioned as a good thing, at least enough to so that a modern has a textual basis for antislavery.

I thought Paul said something more than that, saying good slaves should serve their masters, something like that.

In any case, the later fathers of the church, who i suppose knew the second coming wasnt imminent, didnt have much problem with slavery either.
Posted by: liberalhawk || 06/14/2005 15:31 Comments || Top||

#24 

catholic encyc - article on slavery (which is quite an awesome attempt at apologetics)

"St. Peter points out their duty: to be submissive "not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward", not with a mere inert resignation, but to give a good example and to imitate Christ, Who also suffered unjustly (I Peter, ii, 18, 23-4. In the eyes of the Apostles, a slave's condition, peculiarly wretched, peculiarly exposed to temptations, bears all the more efficacious testimony to the new religion. St. Paul recommends slaves to seek in all things to please their masters, not to contradict them, to do them no wrong, to honour them, to be loyal to them, so as to make the teaching of God Our Saviour shine forth before the eyes of all, and to prevent that name and teaching from being blasphemed (cf. I Tim, vi, 1; Tit., ii, 9, 10). "
Posted by: liberalhawk || 06/14/2005 15:34 Comments || Top||

#25  liberalhawk, I think you need to consolidate your statements to make a point. In theory and in practice Judaism, along with Christianity, has not allowed slaveholding for 150 years or so. In theory, according to Someone, Islam encourages manumission, but in practice slaveholding is common, at least among rich Gulf Arabs (I find it hard to believe this is a practice of the Saudis alone). There is a great deal of indentured servitude on the Indian subcontinent even yet, where families are held generation after generation to pay off a debt incurred long ago; and I believe slavery still exists illegally in the hinterlands of Brazil, and likely elsewhere in the hinterlands of South America; and certainly slavery is very much the practice (Arab Muslims holding Black slaves) in sub-Saharan Africa. But none of this shows Islam's benevolence wrt slaveholding.
Posted by: trailing wife || 06/14/2005 15:35 Comments || Top||

#26  Ahah! You did make a point, but it was while I was typing, so I missed it. Sorry. Good point. ;-)
Posted by: trailing wife || 06/14/2005 15:36 Comments || Top||

#27  "In theory and in practice Judaism, along with Christianity, has not allowed slaveholding for 150 years or so"

Er no. Judaism requires one to follow secular law as a general rule. "Deena de malchuta Deena" Ergo when say, the US abolished slavery, Jews in the US had a halachic requirement to free their slaves. BECAUSE it was US law. Jews in the Ottoman empire could own slaves until the OE abolished slavery. I dont know of any generally accepted halachic decision that says slavery is assur (forbidden) where secular law allows it. No jews owned slaves in KSA in 1962, cause Jews werent allowed to live in KSA in 1962.

I cannot address Christianity of course. Which post 1600 is quite diverse.
Posted by: liberalhawk || 06/14/2005 15:41 Comments || Top||

#28  "In theory and in practice Judaism, along with Christianity, has not allowed slaveholding for 150 years or so"

Er no. Judaism requires one to follow secular law as a general rule. "Deena de malchuta Deena" Ergo when say, the US abolished slavery, Jews in the US had a halachic requirement to free their slaves. BECAUSE it was US law. Jews in the Ottoman empire could own slaves until the OE abolished slavery. I dont know of any generally accepted halachic decision that says slavery is assur (forbidden) where secular law allows it. No jews owned slaves in KSA in 1962, cause Jews werent allowed to live in KSA in 1962.

I cannot address Christianity of course. Which post 1600 is quite diverse.
Posted by: liberalhawk || 06/14/2005 15:41 Comments || Top||

#29  "From: Zev Sero
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 13:03:47 -0400
Subject: Re: Morality of slavery

Shmuel Himelstein wrote:

> It seems to me that we don't have to look very far to see that the Torah
> disapproves of slavery - certainly in terms of Jews.
> The simplest proof is that of the Eved Nirtzah, the Jewish slave who,
> when his servitude is up, decides that he would rather remain a
> slave. His ear is pierced, says the Midrash, because the ear which heard
> "Avadai haim" - they are My servants - and then voluntarily accepted
> slavery, deserves to be pierced. To me, this is a clear example that the
> Torah posits that slavery is a B'di'avad (ex post facto) construct, and
> not a LeChatchila (ab initio) construct. In other words, it seems to me
> - and again I say, at least in terms of Jews, the Torah regards the
> institution as an evil - even if under certain circumstances it might be
> a necessary evil.

But the Torah is clear about *why* it regards the institution of Eved
Ivri as undesirable: it's not because there's something wrong with
slavery, or with Jews being owned, but because `they're *my* slaves'.
When a Jew is sold involuntarily, he is merely suffering the just
punishment that Hashem has prescribed for him in the Torah. But when he
voluntarily submits himself to another person, he is renouncing Hashem's
prior ownership of him, and thus rebelling against his true Owner. So
even though Hashem permits it for humanitarian reasons (`for he loves
you and your family, for he has it good with you'), He makes it clear
that He disapproves.

Furthermore, the Torah makes it clear *why* we are Hashem's slaves; it's
not because He made us, as He did the whole world, but because He
rescued us from Egypt, not to set us free but to take us for Himself.
Goyim, who were not rescued from Egypt, are not Hashem's slaves, except
in the general sense in which `the whole world and its contents are
Hashem's', and therefore the Torah does not at all disapprove of owning
them, and indeed says `from them you *shall* buy slaves', which at least
some Tana'im saw as a positive command.

Rachel Rosencrantz wrote:

> First off, what we commonly think of as slavery (ala slavery in the USA)
> is quite different from what slavery is defined as in the Torah.
> It is said "He who acquires a slave acquires a master." (Kiddushin)
> After looking at the laws of slavery (at least a slave who is a Jew) its
> hard to see why anyone would want to have slaves.

This is only true of the Eved Ivri, who is better described as an
indentured servant than as a slave. As I said above, the true owner of
every Jew is Hashem, and while He permitted us under some circumstances
to have a limited `sublease' on other Jews, this is not a `ownership of
the body' but only of the work that the servant will perform. The Eved
Kenaani, on the other hand, is a true slave, whose owner has `ownership
of the body', and is not even obligated to feed him, let alone treat him
better than he treats himself. I see no significant difference between
this institution and slavery as it existed in the USA.

> In the case where someone sold themselves as a slave because they had no
> money, likewise it is intended as a period for the person to learn how
> to live on their own. At the end of 7 years the slave is to go free.
> If the slave chooses to stay it is seen as a problem.

Actually, the 6-year limit only applies to thieves sold involuntarily.
When a Jew sells himself, the term of his indenture is whatever he
negotiates with the purchaser, provided that it doesn't go past the
Yovel. In the first year of the Yovel, a Jew can sell himself for 49
years."
Posted by: liberalhawk || 06/14/2005 15:44 Comments || Top||

#30  More on slavery in Soddy (from Dhimmi Watch)-
In Islam Unveiled I explain the theological and legal reasons why slavery persists in some Islamic societies — notably Mauritania and Sudan. I had a little bit of information on slavery in Saudi Arabia in there but for reasons I don't recall it didn't make the final draft. Still, slavery was only abolished in Saudi Arabia in 1962, and there are numerous indications that it continues today — including this ad in Saudi paper (which I saw thanks to LGF) offering a 1991 Dodge for a "female servant" from Sri Lanka or India.

And why not? It's taken for granted in the Qur'an (see Suras 2:178, 2:221, 4:92, 5:89, and many more), and that is the foundation of Saudi society. It is also a cornerstone of the oppression of non-Muslims dhimmis, who throughout history have often been enslaved or treated as slaves by their Muslim overlords. The fact that such laws are still on the books ought to be the first concern of human rights organizations worldwide.

Posted by: Spot || 06/14/2005 16:19 Comments || Top||

#31  Someone,
"....Yeman has recoved 3500 children trafficked in Saudi Arabia and other neighboring
... They were taken for the purposed of Slavery and illegal adoption. ..."
This was very recent, as recent as last year.
Posted by: TMH || 06/14/2005 17:42 Comments || Top||

#32  TMH that's a cultural thing, you wouldn't understand.

Course it's the same culture that adopts a lying pederast as a seer. Who's to know.
Posted by: Shipman || 06/14/2005 19:20 Comments || Top||

#33  Well, after making my point, i will have to state that these countries, while stating that they are Islamic, in fact they only use Islam as a tool to strengthen their own hold on power. religion is used as a tool to drive (hurd) the people according to the wishes of the rulers.

As to connect an illegal activity done by a person or persons of religion to the religion itself, i don't think is very fortunate or correct.
Posted by: someone || 06/14/2005 19:46 Comments || Top||

#34  Slavery may have been "outlawed" ina S.A., in a convieniently cosmetic "law" forming nothing more than a Chamberlainian piece of paper they they can narcissistically wave around in the usual self parody of vanity. They can claim "Outlawed" but not ABOLISHED. Shame on all those indulging in the criminal abuse of the term.
Posted by: an dalusian dog || 06/14/2005 22:00 Comments || Top||



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