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2004-10-20 Caucasus/Russia/Central Asia
Suffering for the good of mother Russia
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Posted by .com 2004-10-20 03:50|| || Front Page|| [2 views since 2007-05-07]  Top

#1 THe Human Rights idiots have it backwards. Russia's problem is less that its military's brutal than that it's ineffective: badly organized, badly led, poorly trained, underpaid, completely demoralized. Only when Russia's military is reformed and reorganized will it stop the bloodshed in Chechnya, in the fastest way possible: by winning the war.
Posted by lex 2004-10-20 10:40:20 AM||   2004-10-20 10:40:20 AM|| Front Page Top

#2 Typical Beeb-claim horrific treatment, then cite no examples to substantiate the accusation. Lex-do you happen to know how dedovshchina translates?
Posted by Jules 187 2004-10-20 12:59:07 PM||   2004-10-20 12:59:07 PM|| Front Page Top

#3 The HRW report gives the translation "rule of the grandfathers" for dedovschina.

http://hrw.org/reports/2004/russia1004/
http://www.hrw.org/english/docs/2004/10/20/russia9525.htm

And the Beeb cited the HRW report, jules. You wanted the full 88 pages? Since I've just started reading it myself, here's just one example:


The story of one conscript illustrates the stresses associated with stodnevka particularly vividly. On May 27, 2002, Dmitrii Samsonov wrote to his parents and grandmother that the stodnevka was starting on June 19. He asked them all to send him supplies. For example, he wrote to his mother: “Mama, this is what I need for the next four months: every week a transfer of forty to fifty rubles, and a small package with Prima [cigarettes] and filter cigarettes… Mama, don’t forget to send this immediately. Immediately!”

The letter was delivered late and his parents received it only the day before the start of the stodnevka. A few days later, a second letter arrived in which Samsonov expressed his desperation:

Today the stodnevka is starting and I haven’t received anything from you, nor from mama or grandma… I don’t know what to do. It’s 2:00 p.m. now. It will be lights-out in eight hours. I think that I will not survive this night. Or actually, I will survive but it will cost me a lot. I wrote to you, begged you—just in case, I also wrote to grandma—so you would [send me money] quickly but nobody responded. You just don’t understand how important it was for me. I needed 200 rubles for the stodnevka, a pack of Yava Zolotoi [a cigarette brand name] and four cigarettes per day by June 19. That was it…

As a post scriptum to the letter, Samsonov wrote: “I love you very much and miss you but I don’t know how I’m going to survive now.” In a letter dated July 13, 2002, Samsonov wrote that he was in a military hospital with a broken wrist. He wrote: “I’m not going to explain how that happened. It would take too long. I just wanted to inform you that I survived the beginning of the stodnevka.” In the letter, he repeated his requests for money and cigarettes.

On July 24, 2002, his parents received a telegram saying that their son had died the day before. Later, they were told that he had slit his veins.



Posted by Aris Katsaris  2004-10-20 1:31:19 PM||   2004-10-20 1:31:19 PM|| Front Page Top

#4 Yes, the hazing is horrific, and yes, dozens of recruits each year are killed or kill themselves to avoid it.

But the big story here is that Russia no longer has a state capable of preserving its integrity-- I mean, doing the most basic things a state must do, like paying pensions, preserving the borders, paying teachers' salaries and keeping hospitals open, and raising and supporting an even minimally competent military.

Russia is Pakistan North. Only high oil prices prop up the rotten structure. Had Russia an even halfway competent military, the Chechen insurrection would have been put down many years ago.
Posted by lex 2004-10-20 3:16:14 PM||   2004-10-20 3:16:14 PM|| Front Page Top

#5 Aris, I was looking for some backup of their claims, not an unreasonable expectation to to make of the Beeb, a news organization. Noenetheless, Aris, and lex, thanks for the info.

A broken wrist, then a suicide. It makes you wonder exactly what happens in dedovshchina. His horror and fear are clear, but exactly what is going on there is not.
Posted by Jules 187 2004-10-20 3:23:59 PM||   2004-10-20 3:23:59 PM|| Front Page Top

#6 Hazing has a long history in the Russian/Red/Soviet Army. I heard parts of the story today on a BBC broadcast and it was to me a real yawner. Nothing new here.

Lex, I have a theory about ground forces.

A country spends hundreds of thousands of dollars to train a unit in weapons and tactics in military behavior; these men/women are then deployed into a combat environment.

The moment those soldiers are ordered to attack defenseless targets, as a matter of direct orders, you may as well shoot those soldiers as well for whatever combat efficiency they may have developed in the course of their training, it is gone for good, gone forever, never to come back. It is like opening a bottle of beer and letting it set out.

Now, you take surviving cadre from those units and you move them up in the ranks and what you have is a ruined military, incompetent and unable to perform a simple combat mission without heavy losses to themselves and to defenseless targets.

This is the point the Russian Army is at now. Demoralized and weak. Fortunately their expriment with a contract muilitary has shown some positive results. At the moment the experimental unit, the Russian 106th Airborne Division, now deployed in Chechnya is providing a template for the rest of the army. Chances are it may not end the hazing, but it could definately give the Russian Army the edge it needs to finally end the Chechen war with a win.

The Beeb/HRW report is agenda pushing at its worst. Aris drooling all over it is proof enough of that for me.
Posted by badanov  2004-10-20 10:02:57 PM|| [http://www.rkka.org/title-boris.gif]  2004-10-20 10:02:57 PM|| Front Page Top

#7 The Beeb/HRW report is agenda pushing at its worst.

It seems to me to be agenda pushing at its best. HRW's agenda of caring about human rights is hardly a secret -- though certainly a nuisance for some people.

Aris drooling all over it is proof enough of that for me.

Yeah, you've shown already you have a very personal and *interesting* definition of "proof".
Posted by Aris Katsaris  2004-10-20 10:36:13 PM||   2004-10-20 10:36:13 PM|| Front Page Top

07:39 Sock Puppet of Doom
07:22 Shipman
03:29 Sock Puppet of Doom
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02:23 Sock Puppet of Doom
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23:36 .com
23:19 Pappy
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