Article

2003-06-15 Britain

Euro or no, we will never be âat the heart of Europeâ

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Posted by Bulldog 2003-06-15 06:23 am|| || Front Page|| [6 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 My home being in Canada, I'm actually resigned to this whole debate now; I could care less what happens in Poland or the rest of Europe. Best of luck to them. I just hope the UK does not get suckered into anything.
As a parting shot, I would ask TGA and Aris to give us an estimate on when Turkey will be invited to join. TGA? Aris? (This is of course a question to set you up)

Posted by RW 2003-06-15 08:13:04|| 2003-06-15 08:13:04|| Front Page Top

#2 An excellent, if blunt, analysis of American economic advantages over Europe. Yes, the American economic system is somewhat brutal, but if France's system is the alternative, then we'll pass, thank you very much.

Posted by Ptah 2003-06-15 10:02:29|| [www.crusaderwarcollege.org] 2003-06-15 10:02:29|| Front Page Top

#3 "As a parting shot, I would ask TGA and Aris to give us an estimate on when Turkey will be invited to join. TGA? Aris?"

First of all countries aren't "invited" to join, they apply to join and certain applications are accepted. You may think it a nitpick perhaps, but it's a crucial one, I think.

Secondly, for new countries to join the Union you need a unanimous agreement from the countries already in it. As long as Turkey occupies half of Cyprus, neither the Republic of Cyprus nor Greece will accept Turkey's application.

Thirdly, it has been agreed that Turkey needs to first satisfy the "Copenhagen criteria", about democratization and human rights.

Fourth, the Treaties specify what will happen as long as we have up to 27 members (that's the 15 current ones + the ten to join up next year + Romania and Bulgaria). I'm sure there's gonna be some sort of renegotiation before we accept countries beyond the "27" limit -- such renegotiation will not only influence Turkey but also countries that are likely to enter the EU before her, such as Croatia, or even (if all goes well) Serbia & Montenegro.

So to sum it up.. Estimation? If Cyprus is reunified, and new negotiations aren't sabotaged by youknowwho, 2012-2015 seems a likely goal for Turkey to strive towards.

Hmm... But are countries prone to be victims of Islamic terrorism (such as UK) likely to accept the idea of 70 million or so Muslims allowed to freely roam through its borders? ( This is of course a question to set you up! ;P )

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2003-06-15 10:30:01|| 2003-06-15 10:30:01|| Front Page Top

#4 "And third, as a result of a genuinely federal system of taxation and public expenditure, substantial sums of money are automatically transferred from the more prosperous to the less prosperous parts of the union. Not only does the European monetary union satisfy none of these conditions,"

Excuse me? Where has the Telegraph been all these years not to know that substantial aid is given to the less prosperous parts of the Union?

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2003-06-15 10:38:33|| 2003-06-15 10:38:33|| Front Page Top

#5 You're ignoring the clause: "...genuinely federal system of taxation and federal government...", Aris. Thankfully the EU hasn't yet had the chance to impose direct taxes on nation states' citizens to appropriate capital to be redistributed away from the prosperity-generators. Of course the EU's into wealth distribution, but it's carried out under the guise of CAP etc., and the funds are obtained from member states' EU subscriptions. But your knee-jerk reaction is to assume you know the basics of EU finance better than a man who controlled Britain's economy for seven years. I would have expected no less.

But I'm glad you seem to agree with everything else. Must make a change for you to ingest something other than al Grauniad make-believe when it comes to news from the UK, Aris.

Posted by Bulldog 2003-06-15 11:18:25|| 2003-06-15 11:18:25|| Front Page Top

#6 They left off some important info.

"Lord Lawson was the Chancellor of the Exchequer from 1983 to 1989 and is Nigella's father."

Posted by Parabellum 2003-06-15 11:54:32|| 2003-06-15 11:54:32|| Front Page Top

#7 Yes, I've failed to notice the important difference of genuine federal redistribution of wealth vs. the non-genuinely federal redistribution of wealth.

Agree with everything else? Hardly. I just chose to dispute a factual piece of information rather than waste time discussing the guy's opinions.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2003-06-15 12:02:34|| 2003-06-15 12:02:34|| Front Page Top

#8 Indeed, Parabellum. I didn't realise we exported so much Nigella nowadays.

Aris, you'll forgive me if I don't waste time discussing your opinions.

Posted by Bulldog 2003-06-15 12:21:52|| 2003-06-15 12:21:52|| Front Page Top

#9 That's quite okay. I rarely waste time discussing most opinions expressed here either. Who would have the time? Some things interest me enough to respond, other don't. And that's the way it should be.

Who's Nigella? Pretty girl, but I haven't heard about her.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2003-06-15 12:56:40|| 2003-06-15 12:56:40|| Front Page Top

#10 i for one will take a brutal system where i myself makes it or breaks it! i do not want to pay for someone who does not want to work hard! in the end it makes a stronger person and nation..

Posted by Dan 2003-06-15 15:21:33|| 2003-06-15 15:21:33|| Front Page Top

#11 ..genuinely federal system of taxation and federal government..."

It's of course something the UK would be fighting against with teeth and claws. So it boils down to this: We won't join the Euro until the conditions are right. But we'll do anything to prevent that these conditions may be realized. The cat bites its tail rather happily.
I think Europe should tell the UK. Come when you are ready, we'll get along until then. But you know what Mr Gorbachev said about being late in history.

Let's review the statements:

"but the first could fully be achieved only if the union were bound together by a common language"

Not really. Switzerland has four and lives rather happily with that. Although most Europeans are fluent in at least one foreign language, and most of the time it actually is English. In the East German may be a bit more common.

"the second is a feature of the "brutal" Anglo-Saxon economic model which the "civilised" European social model explicitly rejects"

in its "brutal form" yes but most European countries are on the way to reforms in that respect although they want to reform social security, not kill it.

while the third is the characteristic of a single federal state.

Which the UK will never accept, of course. But once the smaller countries (especially the new ones) realize that the won't be swept under the table of a Federal Europe things may change. When they do the UK will have to make some hard decisions.

Let's face it: Europe can survive without the UK. The UK can probably survive outside the EU. Question is whether the UK will want to.

As for Turkey I think Aris has answered it all. Europe can't expand forever (some Rantburgers already want Israel in it, a true Trojan horse indeed, and looking at the map I don't see Israel being part of Europe). Europe will enter a long phase of consolidation. Turkey is basically an Asian country and will have to live with close association for the next decade. How Turkey will look like in 2013 we'll see then. Turkey actually blew a big chance with Cyprus to be considered earlier.

Posted by True German Ally 2003-06-15 15:41:09|| 2003-06-15 15:41:09|| Front Page Top

#12 I don't think anyone is more happy about Poland joining the EU than the Germans. As for Turkey, just as I thought, they will always have that carrot in front of their nose but will never be able to reach it.

Posted by RW 2003-06-15 20:56:47|| 2003-06-15 20:56:47|| Front Page Top

#13 When will Haiti join NAFTA?

Posted by True German Ally 2003-06-15 20:59:10|| 2003-06-15 20:59:10|| Front Page Top

#14 Some shit never decomposes.

Posted by Shipman 2004-06-14 10:00:59 AM|| 2004-06-14 10:00:59 AM|| Front Page Top

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