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2005-01-29 Europe
Brits Go "Thumbs Down" On UN Constitution - Sorry Tony
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Posted by Duke Nukem 2005-01-29 00:00:00 AM|| || Front Page|| [8 views since 2007-05-07]  Top

#1 Looks like the brits ain't as dumb as the EU thinks they are.
Posted by mmurray821 2005-01-29 12:23:13 AM||   2005-01-29 12:23:13 AM|| Front Page Top

#2 Woohoo! Looks like the Brits are not as dumb and compliant as Comrade Blair thought that they were. Next stop, defeat Blair and the Labor Party at the upcoming UK election. Although Michael Howard is not as "dashing" as Blair, I think he would do well by the Brits. It's time for a change and new faces at Downing Street.
Posted by 2xstandard 2005-01-29 12:58:48 AM||   2005-01-29 12:58:48 AM|| Front Page Top

#3 Oh, lordy - isn't this the same story that went over 100 comments just yesterday?

There goes your bandwidth again, Fred. :-(
Posted by Barbara Skolaut  2005-01-29 1:01:59 AM||   2005-01-29 1:01:59 AM|| Front Page Top

#4 Not if we quickly set up a proxy web site for Aris.
Posted by Duke Nukem  2005-01-29 1:09:09 AM||   2005-01-29 1:09:09 AM|| Front Page Top

#5 Speaking of Aris.. someone who has both Aris and myself in their address book is infected with the W32.Beagle@mm!cpl virus.
Posted by Dishman  2005-01-29 1:12:32 AM||   2005-01-29 1:12:32 AM|| Front Page Top

#6 You know... if you people were one bit interested in the survival of Western civilisation you'd be doing the utmost to keep and strengthen the institutions that bind its nations together in peace and freedom. Especially one of the few ones like the EU that (unlike NATO) actually gives a damn about democracy and human rights, the virtues that make our civilisation our civilisation. The organization that in the last 15 years has done the most in encouraging the growth of said democracy and human rights in the whole of Eastern Europe.

You would not be following the anti-Constitution line that everywhere in the continent is being led by the communists and the fascists that hate you and Israel even more than they hate the EU.

Except in Britain -- there the anti-Constitution line is being led by the xenophobes ofcourse, the ones who haven't met a paranoid fear they haven't liked.

As your world collapses around you, and as the various fascisms dance on the ashes of what was once called "the West"... you boys go on fiddling.
Posted by Aris Katsaris  2005-01-29 1:55:24 AM|| [http://www.livejournal.com/~katsaris/]  2005-01-29 1:55:24 AM|| Front Page Top

#7 Especially one of the few ones like the EU that actually gives a damn about democracy and human rights, the virtues that make our civilisation our civilisation.

Hahaahahahahahaaha.......
Posted by Bomb-a-rama 2005-01-29 2:25:57 AM||   2005-01-29 2:25:57 AM|| Front Page Top

#8 Ah your ignorance is indeed funny. In a bitter way.

Check what Freedomhouse says on the issue if you don't believe me, laughing boy.
Posted by Aris Katsaris  2005-01-29 2:28:20 AM|| [http://www.livejournal.com/~katsaris/]  2005-01-29 2:28:20 AM|| Front Page Top

#9 -- if you people were one bit interested in the survival of Western civilisation you'd be doing the utmost to keep and strengthen the institutions that bind its nations together in peace and freedom. --

Aris, the UN, Kyoto and the ICC does none of those things.

We keep trying, but you guys don't agree. Basically, we've gotten scorn for 228 years. We were liked, when? After the Revolution, WWI and WWII, but as my grandfather said, gratitude is only 1 generation."

Check out this at LGF:
http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=14502_Anti-American_Nights_in_Paris&only=yes

If some offer their help, it's on their terms.

Think Afghanistan.
Posted by anonymous2u 2005-01-29 2:42:42 AM||   2005-01-29 2:42:42 AM|| Front Page Top

#10 You would not be following the anti-Constitution line that everywhere in the continent is being led by the communists and the fascists that hate you and Israel even more than they hate the EU.

W/the net - we can read it in your papers, Aris.
Posted by anonymous2u 2005-01-29 2:43:49 AM||   2005-01-29 2:43:49 AM|| Front Page Top

#11 I do care what happens in Europe.
Unfortunately, I see the EU Constitution as being, at best, a rearranging of deck chairs. More likely I fear it will create a horrible bureaucracy that muzzles the lookouts and locks the rudder.

Most of us here see trouble coming for Europe, independent of the constitution. You MUST be able to adjust in order to deal with it.

Given time, the democratic process might sort out the bureaucracy... might. I don't think you'll have time, though.
Posted by Dishman  2005-01-29 4:31:39 AM||   2005-01-29 4:31:39 AM|| Front Page Top

#12 The western civilization that Aris say would be defended by the EU is the civilization who gave the world ideas like Democracy or Freedom of Expression. Westerners have gone to battle in ships called "Constitution" or "Parhesia" (the right to say what you want). In the EU there are sharp and growing sharper restrictions to Freeddom of Expression (cf the growing number of hate speech laws). We also have the EU paying people (with public money) for influencing public opinion, newspapers who firmly lock away any experssion of dissent with the EU.


And don't forget about those little differences between the American constitution and the projected EU one: "We, the people of the United States" versus "The King of Belgians, the Grand Duque of Luxembourg, the President of the Czech Republic... have designated the following plenipotentiaries". Ie nobody elected the people who made the Constitution. I wasn't asked if I wanted Gicard, that pompous, corrupt and blood-stained ex-president as my representative.

But the people will be asked by referendum isn't it? Except that there are massive tax-payer funded propaganda campaigns for the "Yes" (and, at least in the case of Spain this is completely illegal), except that there is huge pressure for the "Yes": "If you vote NO it will destroy nthe EU", except that everything is done to keep the people uninformed: in Spain the text of the Constitution will be published just two days before the referendum. Did I mention that the Spanish Minister of Justice has said: "There is no need to read it in order to know it is good"? Did I mention that it cannot be amended for twenty years, ie the people will have itrs right of amendment restricted for twenty years?

That is the spirit of Europe: a constitution made by unelected people and forced down upon the throats of people through brain-washing, intimidation and ignorance. And jusyt in case the pople could awake it is made non-amendable.

The EU has no relation with those Athenians who manned the trireme "Parhesia" at Salamina. If any, it is the spiritual child of the Persian Empire.
Posted by JFM  2005-01-29 5:43:18 AM||   2005-01-29 5:43:18 AM|| Front Page Top

#13 ones like the EU that (unlike NATO) actually gives a damn about democracy and human rights, the virtues that make our civilisation our civilisation. The organization that in the last 15 years has done the most in encouraging the growth of said democracy and human rights in the whole of Eastern Europe.


As in, say, the heroic efforts of the EU in Bosnia and Kosovo, right???

Pfah.
Posted by true nuff 2005-01-29 5:58:14 AM||   2005-01-29 5:58:14 AM|| Front Page Top

#14 LOL Aris - that's just Grate! Why, you almost sound upset! You've said yourself plenty of times that you'd like the UK to leave the EU. This news should make your weekend.

A few comments: i) It's YouGov, which is internet-only. Respondents don't comprise a good representation of the electorate at large. ii) Internet users tend to be better informed than non-internet users (and, to use the EU's own logic - more sympathetically inclined towards the draft Constitution than the general public, ha ha ha). iii) There's still a year or more to go until the referendum is actually held, which leaves plenty of time for the Government and the EU's propaganda machines to work on voters. iv) There's also a very high chance that one of the other countries due to hold a referendum on the Constitution will vote 'No' before we get the chance (e.g. France). That would be most annoying, and is also the scenario that our own Government no doubt hopes will happen. In that case the Constitution would go back to the drawing board and the British public wouldn't have had a say on the project.
Posted by Bulldog  2005-01-29 6:38:54 AM||   2005-01-29 6:38:54 AM|| Front Page Top

#15 Er, somebody fix the headline.
Posted by someone 2005-01-29 7:05:25 AM||   2005-01-29 7:05:25 AM|| Front Page Top

#16 Bulldog> You've said yourself plenty of times that you'd like the UK to leave the EU. This news should make your weekend.

Yeah, too bad that this vote is about the constitution, not about the UK leaving the EU.

After the UK did its utmost to impose a sucky watered down constitution on the rest of us, now it'll use a negative vote NOT to leave, but rather to water the constitution down some more.

Yes, I'd rather see one nation leave, rather than see a union of 25 be destroyed by the saboteur actions of one. The ideal would be to have UK voluntarily stay as a non-saboteur, but once again we can't have ideal solutions in the real world.

As in, say, the heroic efforts of the EU in Bosnia and Kosovo, right??? Pfah.

Once again, read last few years' Freedomhouse reports on eastern European nations, why don't you? Scared what you might discover if you actually investigated some facts?

Dishman> More likely I fear it will create a horrible bureaucracy that muzzles the lookouts and locks the rudder. Most of us here see trouble coming for Europe, independent of the constitution.

The constitution increases the democratic functioning of the Union and its functioning in general. It allows easier cooperation of the EU in foreign policy matters, but at the same time it forces no nation to go along with any policy it doesn't want.

Basically, we've gotten scorn for 228 years.

Well let's ignore for the moment centuries past and let's focus on the present. Ooh, you get "scorn" from Europeans. Poor little yous.

Well get over it: From people in Middle East you've recently gotten the Twin Towers down instead, from China you have threats against Taiwan, from Russia you have missiles sent to Syria and nuke technology to Iran.

If the worst thing you get from Europe is "scorn", then you have it lucky. We've gotten no less from you.

And as a sidenote what about all that gratitude you people occasionally claim towards the Polish that supported you and sent troops to Iraq? Towards the Czechs, towards the Hungarians, towards all that "New Europe"? "We will not forget it, you said" And yet you do.

Now grow up. all of you, and start supporting the EU as one of the most valuable organizations that exist for the survival of our Western civilisation. If I wanted the US dissolved into its constituent states, that'd be as foolish as what you people are doing -- namely not understanding that disunity will lead to our destruction.
Posted by Aris Katsaris  2005-01-29 9:15:07 AM|| [http://www.livejournal.com/~katsaris/]  2005-01-29 9:15:07 AM|| Front Page Top

#17 I think the problem with the EU Constitution is that the Eurostanis have decided to write in the CFR with all the addendant bureaucratic mazes before having a basic understanding of what a constitution should do, which is as little as possible.
Posted by badanov  2005-01-29 9:25:06 AM|| [http://www.rkka.org/title-boris.gif]  2005-01-29 9:25:06 AM|| Front Page Top

#18 BD - obviously you are ignorant or you would be in favor of turning over your country's sovereignty to the enlightend minds in Brussels.

While your caveats about the YouGov survey are noteworthy, the results appear to track with the other tea leafs that indicate a plurality opposed to the EU constitution. If you have a better study, let's see it.

It's continues to amaze that any country would turn over the soverneity keys to the EU bureaucrats.



Posted by Duke Nukem  2005-01-29 9:38:15 AM||   2005-01-29 9:38:15 AM|| Front Page Top

#19 Duke Nukem> Let Bulldog alone. His nation is the only one in the EU which seems undemocratic enough that its people supposedly don't want to be part of the EU but nonetheless they are.

In the rest of the continent, the majority desire their membership, you see. As such we can probably not understand the frustration that the British are feeling, we people living in free nations.

It's continues to amaze that any country would turn over the soverneity keys to the EU bureaucrats.

It hasn't happened, nor ever will.
Posted by Aris Katsaris  2005-01-29 9:59:54 AM|| [http://www.livejournal.com/~katsaris/]  2005-01-29 9:59:54 AM|| Front Page Top

#20 we people living in free nations.


MEEEE! It's all about MEEEE! My ego neeeeeeds maintenance!
Posted by Its all about ME 2005-01-29 10:32:25 AM||   2005-01-29 10:32:25 AM|| Front Page Top

#21 those awful ignorant Brits! Why if they'd just listen to Aris their betters they do as they're told
Posted by Frank G  2005-01-29 10:34:06 AM||   2005-01-29 10:34:06 AM|| Front Page Top

#22 Wow, Aris....what's with the venom today? Bad ouzo last night at the taverna?

And, yeah, goofy little me tends to think that NATO did a better job of insuring at least part of Europe's freedom....if for no other reason without it you wouldn't even have a EU. Is it perfect? Hell no, but then again, neither is your beloved EU.
Posted by Desert Blondie 2005-01-29 10:42:03 AM|| [http://azjetsetchick.blogspot.com/]  2005-01-29 10:42:03 AM|| Front Page Top

#23 Now grow up. all of you, and start supporting the EU as one of the most valuable organizations that exist for the survival of our Western civilisation.

Drama queen.
Posted by Robert Crawford  2005-01-29 10:45:15 AM|| [http://www.kloognome.com/]  2005-01-29 10:45:15 AM|| Front Page Top

#24 If the majority of Brits are against EU constitution, then the majory of Brits are deluded---and must be ignored, for now (they'll have to be reeducated later).
Posted by gromgorru  2005-01-29 10:52:50 AM||   2005-01-29 10:52:50 AM|| Front Page Top

#25 Desert blondie> And you'd have a point, IF I had been as venomous towards NATO as you people are towards the EU.

But it's not NATO that's improved Turkey's democracy and human rights situation. That's the EU's influence.
Posted by Aris Katsaris  2005-01-29 10:52:52 AM|| [http://www.livejournal.com/~katsaris/]  2005-01-29 10:52:52 AM|| Front Page Top

#26 sure Aris, and the EU prevents tooth decay as well. NATO is dead and the EU will follow. At least you'll always have half of Cyprus....
Posted by Frank G  2005-01-29 10:57:15 AM||   2005-01-29 10:57:15 AM|| Front Page Top

#27 Aris, "the survival of Western civilisation" (#6) will certainly not be assured by either your verbose EU constitution or your verbose self. Bloated bureaucracy is hardly a survival tool.
Posted by Tom 2005-01-29 11:00:26 AM||   2005-01-29 11:00:26 AM|| Front Page Top

#28 Bloated bureaucracy is hardly a survival tool

except as a flotation device in case you have to ditch
Posted by Frank G  2005-01-29 11:04:46 AM||   2005-01-29 11:04:46 AM|| Front Page Top

#29 Ok, it's official....I give up.
It was kind of fun, for a while.
Sorry for wasting your bandwidth, Fred. I'll go atone at the tipjar.
Posted by Desert Blondie 2005-01-29 11:05:05 AM|| [http://azjetsetchick.blogspot.com/]  2005-01-29 11:05:05 AM|| Front Page Top

#30 I'm not playing games, Tom & Frank, unlike you. I'm deadly serious. As for my "verbose EU constitution", no it won't assure it. But it'll do a far better job at it than the *current* verbose EU treaties. For starters it'll allow UK to secede from the EU peacefully, without needing to either violate nor renegotiate the treaties it has already accepted.

Frank, once again, if you don't believe me on Turkey, check what Freedom house has to say on the issue. You don't need to take my word on it.
Posted by Aris Katsaris  2005-01-29 11:05:11 AM|| [http://www.livejournal.com/~katsaris/]  2005-01-29 11:05:11 AM|| Front Page Top

#31 MEEEEEEEEEEEEE! You need MEEEEEEEE! Leach.
Posted by Its all about ME 2005-01-29 11:20:15 AM||   2005-01-29 11:20:15 AM|| Front Page Top

#32 If the worst thing you get from Europe is "scorn", then you have it lucky. We've gotten no less from you.--

No Aris, you got our our treasure - our men, blood and our money. 2x. Those crosses aren't there for nothing.

You get our scorn now because of this wonderful invention of Al Gore's. You're finally getting back a little of what's been dished out for a couple of centuries.

Our papers aren't filled w/a smidgeon of the venom coming from your side.
Posted by anonymous2u 2005-01-29 1:51:08 PM||   2005-01-29 1:51:08 PM|| Front Page Top

#33 I love how the people of the UK choosing not to want to be under the EU's Articles of Fealty Constitution makes them "undemocratic."

Sounds downright... Soviet.
Posted by Laurence of the Rats  2005-01-29 2:35:43 PM|| [http://www.punictreachery.com/]  2005-01-29 2:35:43 PM|| Front Page Top

#34 'But it's not NATO that's improved Turkey's democracy and human rights situation. That's the EU's influence.' -- eh ?? Its the will of the Turkish , not some Eurocrat outsiders . Once Turkey came out of the dark ages , and folk found a way of life that could work , they voted on it . With that , slowly and surely , came a better life for all Turks . Ask your Dad Aris , perhaps he can remember .
Posted by MacNails  2005-01-29 2:51:34 PM||   2005-01-29 2:51:34 PM|| Front Page Top

#35 I love how the people of the UK choosing not to want to be under the EU's Articles of Fealty Constitution makes them "undemocratic"

Really? Who said that?

Read more carefully next time.

MacNails> Its the will of the Turkish, not some Eurocrat outsiders.

Yeah, it was the will of the "Turkish" to become acceptable by the European Union, according to the standards for human rights that the European Union has set.
Posted by Aris Katsaris  2005-01-29 3:24:09 PM|| [http://www.livejournal.com/~katsaris/]  2005-01-29 3:24:09 PM|| Front Page Top

#36 Here's a quote from Lose the delusion.

"One area that has seen real change is Turkey's human rights practices. For example, the EU has always been insistent that the use of torture by the police must be eradicated. It has been a slow process that has had to force changes not just to laws but to entrenched thinking. I remember being told a story five or six years ago about a Turkish human rights activist who returned back to Turkey after a number of years abroad. Apparently, she felt that things were improving in the country and that it was now safe enough for her to work from within. Anyway, not long after arriving back her flat was broken into. She reported it to the police. No arrest was made. A while later it happened again. She went back to the police to report it and see if there had been any headway with the investigation on the previous case. The policeman told her that the police were finding it increasingly hard to deal with crime as the EU had demanded that they now 'respect' prisoners' rights. 'What can we do when faced with these restrictions from Europe?', he asked. The human rights activist, appalled at the comment, decided that there was no hope for her country. She packed her things and left. Six years later, there are still problems, but most observers agree that under the watchful eye of the EU, and with the continued lure of EU membership, there have been real improvements."

One day, the nice people of Rantburg will be brave enough to say "Thank you EU, for bringing Turkey closer to Western civilisation and distancing it from the Middle East, the way NATO never managed."
Posted by Aris Katsaris  2005-01-29 3:28:00 PM|| [http://www.livejournal.com/~katsaris/]  2005-01-29 3:28:00 PM|| Front Page Top

#37 Does this mean that you EU guys are planning to use "the continued lure of EU membership" on Turkey indefinitely?
Posted by Tom 2005-01-29 3:35:08 PM||   2005-01-29 3:35:08 PM|| Front Page Top

#38 " One day, the nice people of Rantburg will be brave enough to say "Thank you EU, for bringing Turkey closer to Western civilisation and distancing it from the Middle East, the way NATO never managed.

I thought NATO was a military assistance Treaty Organization between member nations of Europe and the USA, as a bulwark, a combined command structure to oppose the Warsaw pact, one which had actually zero impact of human right policy, as should have been.

Or maybe Aris is trying to mix concepts up, so he can spin them any way he wants?

" One day, the nice people of Rantburg will be brave enough to say "Thank you EU, for bringing Turkey closer to Western civilisation and distancing it from the Middle East,

Followed by long fits of uncontrolled laughter...
Posted by badanov  2005-01-29 3:47:12 PM|| [http://www.rkka.org/title-boris.gif]  2005-01-29 3:47:12 PM|| Front Page Top

#39 I thought NATO was a military assistance Treaty Organization between member nations of Europe and the USA, as a bulwark, a combined command structure to oppose the Warsaw pact, one which had actually zero impact of human right policy, as should have been

As should have been? Thank you, you made my point.

Or maybe Aris is trying to mix concepts up, so he can spin them any way he wants?

EU cares about human rights, freedom, democracy. In NATO these things were incidental - examples of Spain, Portugal, Greece, Turkey. My point again.
Posted by Aris Katsaris  2005-01-29 3:52:03 PM|| [http://www.livejournal.com/~katsaris/]  2005-01-29 3:52:03 PM|| Front Page Top

#40 whatever Aris :) We could dissect your bull all day long and not get any closer to enlightening you . TUrkey wanted to join EU > dictated by a general consensus or the population of Turkey . The EU has laws and regualtions which , being a backward state that you WERE ,you needed to ,at least, acheive before your Application was accepted by majority of the nations in the EU .

Anyway , am off out for a game of poker with some friends , of which one is TURKISH !
Posted by MacNails  2005-01-29 3:55:12 PM||   2005-01-29 3:55:12 PM|| Front Page Top

#41 Does this mean that you EU guys are planning to use "the continued lure of EU membership" on Turkey indefinitely?

"We EU guys" hold a dozen different opinions on Turkish membership and what should be done about it.

As a sidenote, another good about the Constitution is that (for the first time I believe) it allows the possibility for member-states to have their participation partially suspended they start violating the basic principles of the EU.
Posted by Aris Katsaris  2005-01-29 3:58:35 PM|| [http://www.livejournal.com/~katsaris/]  2005-01-29 3:58:35 PM|| Front Page Top

#42 MacNail, seems to think me Turkish for some reason.

Not only that but when he rephrases pretty much what I've myself said already, he seems to think he's correcting me.

Another fine example of illiteracy, ladies and gentlemen.
Posted by Aris Katsaris  2005-01-29 4:01:00 PM|| [http://www.livejournal.com/~katsaris/]  2005-01-29 4:01:00 PM|| Front Page Top

#43 Yea, it is all about you, Aris!

Grow up!
Posted by Sobiesky 2005-01-29 4:04:24 PM||   2005-01-29 4:04:24 PM|| Front Page Top

#44 Perhaps MacNails confuses you with Murat. It would be easy to do.
Posted by Tom 2005-01-29 4:06:11 PM||   2005-01-29 4:06:11 PM|| Front Page Top

#45 
One day, the nice people of Rantburg will be brave enough to say "Thank you EU, for bringing Turkey closer to Western civilisation and distancing it from the Middle East, the way NATO never managed."

Talk to us when Europe gets them to cop to the Armenian genocide, rather than caving into their demands to cover it up.
Posted by Robert Crawford  2005-01-29 4:08:50 PM|| [http://www.kloognome.com/]  2005-01-29 4:08:50 PM|| Front Page Top

#46 HAAAAHAHAHAAAAHAHAHAAHAHHAA!!!!!!!
Posted by Bomb-a-rama 2005-01-29 4:11:16 PM||   2005-01-29 4:11:16 PM|| Front Page Top

#47 "'We EU guys' hold a dozen different opinions on Turkish membership and what should be done about it."
Decisive bunch, aren't you! And if we had an alliance and needed your help, how many years would it take you to reach a decision? Oh, wait, that sounds a lot like how the UN "handled" Saddam, doesn't it?
Posted by Tom 2005-01-29 4:13:46 PM||   2005-01-29 4:13:46 PM|| Front Page Top

#48 Bomb-a-rama, ye'r sooo cynical! ;-)
Posted by Sobiesky 2005-01-29 4:15:14 PM||   2005-01-29 4:15:14 PM|| Front Page Top

#49 Future EU President
Posted by .com 2005-01-29 4:18:37 PM||   2005-01-29 4:18:37 PM|| Front Page Top

#50 Talk to us when Europe gets them to cop to the Armenian genocide, rather than caving into their demands to cover it up.

MMmmm. It may be sooner than you think, that one. If and when it happens and I refresh your memory concerning, what will you do in return? Will you acknowledge your error?

Turkey should Acknowledge Armenian Genocide says European Parliament
http://www.europaworld.org/issue10/turkshldacknowlarmeniangenoc241100.htm

European Parliament Calls On Turkey To Explicitly Recognize The Armenian Genocide
http://www.armeniaforeignministry.com/news/inthenews/041215_europe_genocide.html

That one is just last month. Hmm, yeah Europe seems to be caving into their demands to cover it up alright.

http://globalpolitician.com/articles.asp?ID=319
"At the end of December, the Foreign Minister of Turkey, Abdullah Gul, met MPs and stated, in particular, the following: the issue of admission to the EU comes to that of recognition of the Armenian Genocide."
Posted by Aris Katsaris  2005-01-29 4:21:32 PM|| [http://www.livejournal.com/~katsaris/]  2005-01-29 4:21:32 PM|| Front Page Top

#51 .com, is that Chirac or Katsaris?
Posted by Tom 2005-01-29 4:21:42 PM||   2005-01-29 4:21:42 PM|| Front Page Top

#52 Boy, Aris, you should be reading Rantburg *today*:
Thread: "Turks Force Erasure of Armenian Genocide from German Textbook"
"Pressure from Turkey has resulted in the removal of a reference to the Armenian genocide from a German school curriculum, reports said Wednesday..."
Posted by Tom 2005-01-29 4:25:34 PM||   2005-01-29 4:25:34 PM|| Front Page Top

#53 Decisive bunch, aren't you!

Perhaps where you live, "you USA people" have a single opinion. Here, where people are still free, 400 millions Europeans have 400 million different opinions on the issues.

So I can't tell you what "we EU people" plan to do about Turkish membership.

And if we had an alliance and needed your help, how many years would it take you to reach a decision?

Well that kinda depends on the process that our treaties or Constitution would command before decision-making, wouldn't it? If you want speedier decisions, support it -- it's a step in the right direction, allowing much more flexible and quick decision-making.

com, is that Chirac or Katsaris?

Well, I know it's not me. I'm not so musical.
Posted by Aris Katsaris  2005-01-29 4:26:51 PM|| [http://www.livejournal.com/~katsaris/]  2005-01-29 4:26:51 PM|| Front Page Top

#54 Turks Force Erasure of Armenian Genocide from German Textbook

Not an EU competency, textbooks.
Posted by Aris Katsaris  2005-01-29 4:28:17 PM|| [http://www.livejournal.com/~katsaris/]  2005-01-29 4:28:17 PM|| Front Page Top

#55 So, to sum it up, your position seems to be: "We nations in the EU don't have a single position, can't reach decisions, and edit our textbooks to Turkish taste, so you in the US should make alliances with us and treat us as equals because we are cleaning up Turkey using our never-ending chance-at-membership lure." Okay.
Posted by Tom 2005-01-29 4:36:28 PM||   2005-01-29 4:36:28 PM|| Front Page Top

#56 I'm tired of your games, Tom. You are intentionally ignorant and you will remain such.

You accuse us for not reaching decisions? That's kinda what most of the point of the Constitution is, making Europe more able to reach decisions by removing veto from a wide range of issues?

Oops, but I guess you didn't know that one either. Never mind. Every single word you say accusing Europe for not "reaching decisions" is in fact a word in support of the Constitution -- you are simply too much of an idiot to know it.

Thank you for supporting the Constitution so eloquently.
Posted by Aris Katsaris  2005-01-29 4:46:49 PM|| [http://www.livejournal.com/~katsaris/]  2005-01-29 4:46:49 PM|| Front Page Top

#57 http://www.punchstock.com/image/artville/1589304/large/gam008.jpg
Posted by Tom 2005-01-29 4:54:34 PM||   2005-01-29 4:54:34 PM|| Front Page Top

#58 
Re #55 (Tom): so you in the US should make alliances with us and treat us as equals

I don't understand your point, Tom. The USA is in a military alliance, NATO. We treat our European allies as allies. What do you think should be done differently?
.
Posted by Mike Sylwester 2005-01-29 5:03:45 PM||   2005-01-29 5:03:45 PM|| Front Page Top

#59 treat them as they are: some are back-stabbing assholes (France and Schroeder) who would undermine us for their own gain while hiding under the protective wing America provides. Any answers you have, Mike? Or just rhetorical question bullshit as usual?
Posted by Frank G  2005-01-29 5:18:14 PM||   2005-01-29 5:18:14 PM|| Front Page Top

#60 
Any answers you have, Mike?

Not for you. Ever.
.
Posted by Mike Sylwester 2005-01-29 5:24:06 PM||   2005-01-29 5:24:06 PM|| Front Page Top

#61 haven't seen you provide any for anyone else, either, just the patented MS rhetorical: "and what would you have done differently?"™

Posted by Frank G  2005-01-29 5:25:37 PM||   2005-01-29 5:25:37 PM|| Front Page Top

#62 Frank, he does not have any, but instead of admitting it, he resorts to childish postures.
Posted by Sobiesky 2005-01-29 5:27:46 PM||   2005-01-29 5:27:46 PM|| Front Page Top

#63 Damn Frank! You okay? That's gotta hurt.
Posted by Shipman 2005-01-29 6:28:17 PM||   2005-01-29 6:28:17 PM|| Front Page Top

#64 yeah, I'm wearing a cup
Posted by Frank G  2005-01-29 6:34:42 PM||   2005-01-29 6:34:42 PM|| Front Page Top

#65 --their participation partially suspended they start violating the basic principles of the EU.--

Like busting their budget?

Posted by anonymous2u 2005-01-29 8:35:02 PM||   2005-01-29 8:35:02 PM|| Front Page Top

#66 The textbook thing no longer stands. Armenian genocide will stay in the books... the topic "genocide" will be enlarged though to include other examples (like the killing of the Hereros by German colonial forces).
Posted by True German Ally 2005-01-29 10:06:12 PM||   2005-01-29 10:06:12 PM|| Front Page Top

#67 And in other news:

How 'bout them Jayhawks?
Posted by badanov  2005-01-29 11:49:28 PM|| [http://www.rkka.org/title-boris.gif]  2005-01-29 11:49:28 PM|| Front Page Top

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