Article

2007-11-04 Home Front: Culture Wars

Archived material is restricted to Rantburg regulars and members. If you need access email fred.pruitt=at=gmail.com with your nick to be added to the members list. There is no charge to join Rantburg as a member.

Posted by Seafarious 2007-11-04 01:18|| || Front Page|| [11 views ] Top

#1 There was a plan there, you know. I think the president genuinely felt that if we could prove a model of democracy and broad prosperity in the Middle East, it might defuse the situation. I don't believe that, and in the capacity I had, I told them that.

Good on ya mate, neither do most of us.

Posted by Besoeker 2007-11-04 01:48|| 2007-11-04 01:48|| Front Page Top

#2 The Middle East Democratic Initiative was a bona fide peace effort. It failed because Muslims want neither democracy or peace.

Posted by McZoid 2007-11-04 03:05|| 2007-11-04 03:05|| Front Page Top

#3 Bono is a utopian socialist who can't see that poverty is the inevitable end product of a failed culture.

He should direct his limousine to Zimbabwe or the Paleo territories between visits to the U.N. for a dose of reality.

Posted by Agar, Conquistador of the Voles007 2007-11-04 03:19|| 2007-11-04 03:19|| Front Page Top

#4 Bono is wiser than most lefties though. The problem I have is he saw the falacy of democracy for Iraq,but he doesn't understand the same attempt to pay off potential enemies elsewhere are as doomed to failure.

Posted by Sholush McCoy3698 2007-11-04 07:31|| 2007-11-04 07:31|| Front Page Top

#5 Bono said:
"Isn't it cheaper and smarter to make friends out of potential enemies than to defend yourself against them later?"

Err, actually not. With the largest nuclear arsenal, as he points out, it would probably be cheaper to just wipe our enemies out. We wouldn't of course, but definitely cheaper, faster and surer and that spells smarter.

Posted by DanNY 2007-11-04 08:04|| 2007-11-04 08:04|| Front Page Top

#6 In reality, Bono's statement that democracy will not work in Iraq, and by extension in all of the arab world displays a racist arrogance that he couches in blithe terminology. Ask the Iraqi bloggers like Iraq the Model's Mohammed and Ali and the others what they think of this kind of pronouncement. I doubt they will agree.

Democracy can succeed as long as the power of the Imams can be curtailed.

Posted by DanNY 2007-11-04 08:10|| 2007-11-04 08:10|| Front Page Top

#7 I think the jury is still out on the question of the possibility of liberal democracy in the Middle East. The problem we have in America is we are used to instant solutions. So when 4 years go by without an obvious success we assume failure. Patience is really necessary if we hope to change the course of the Middle East.

It is refreshing to see that Bono at least recognizes the grave threat we face instead of denying it like so many others on the Left.

Posted by Canaveraldan 2007-11-04 09:16|| 2007-11-04 09:16|| Front Page Top

#8 Democracy is rarely "clean". It wasn't until the 20th Century that democracy in the US was any better than what it is now in Iraq. Through most of our history, bribing congressmen was perfectly legal, for example.

Even at its onset, some really ugly compromises had to be made for democracy to succeed, and not just the continuance of slavery, either.

Smuggling had to be legitimized up and down the East Coast. Later, what what we today would call "ethnic cleansing" of Indians from entire States. Depending on where you lived, you *had* to belong to certain religions.

The first President to break the Constitution in a big way was George Washington, in putting down the Whiskey Rebellion against an illegal tax. 75 years on, Lincoln threw away big chunks of it. In fact, all of our 18th and 19th Century Presidents of note did all kinds of questionable stuff.

The biggest selling point of democracy is simply that it is a better way of doing business. If given a chance, and some discipline, it quickly becomes the obvious choice. But only over time can it clean itself up.

Iraq has been given every chance, and then some, to recover faster and become as powerful as Japan, in short order. Just by keeping their democracy alive for a while means that if it can survive, it not only will survive, but will infect every other nation in that region.

Posted by Anonymoose 2007-11-04 10:24|| 2007-11-04 10:24|| Front Page Top

#9 As mentioned here Bono is a utopian socialist of the kind that thinks sitting around singing Kumbaya will solve everything.

There is the saving grace that he recognises the existential threat. Unfortunately he can't get his head around the alternatives.

Like so many of his ilk he just doesn't understand the motivations of greed and lust for power that are universal. He doesn't understand the idea that many would rather rule in hell than serve in heaven.

Until he specifies exactly what compromises he is willing to make in these lovely talks with enemies; and what system of gov't he'll support for those poor Iraqies that are incapable of democracy, he is nothing more than a leftist poser.

Posted by AlanC 2007-11-04 11:02|| 2007-11-04 11:02|| Front Page Top

#10 Iraq has been given every chance, and then some, to recover faster and become as powerful as Japan, in short order.

On the surface, yes; on deeper reflection, no.

When Matthew Perry opened Japan, the Japanese recognized that the Chinese model they had been following was the wrong choice. But it still took a generation before the Meiji restoration could begin. Then the Japanese followed a western model. And unfortunately it was more German than anything else as in the last quarter of the 19th century Germany appeared to be the rising star on the world stage.

So it wasn't until after WWII when the Japanese recognized they had made a mistake in choosing a primarily German model that MacArthur & friends shoved as much of the fascism lite of the New Deal down the Japanese' throats and they adopted a form of democracy of which we approve.

But the Japanese are nothing if not fast learners. If this model proves deficient, they will be quick to assume the new strong horse model. At least superficially.

Posted by Nimble Spemble 2007-11-04 11:02|| 2007-11-04 11:02|| Front Page Top

#11 Bono = Bozo

Posted by Scooter McGruder 2007-11-04 11:27|| 2007-11-04 11:27|| Front Page Top

#12 The Middle East Democratic Initiative was a bona fide peace effort. It failed because Muslims want neither democracy or peace.

Until that changes, not much else will. To date, democracy continues to be universally reviled by the Muslim world, which regards it as manmade laws seeking to supplant those of Allah. There seems little hope of changing that, save by force. What's more, since those same laws of Allah absolutely compel Muslims to violent jihad, the outlook for any lasting peace is more than dismal.

Democracy can succeed as long as the power of the Imams can be curtailed.

So far, every indication is that it cannot and will not be curtailed. Neither voluntarily nor even by the Muslims who suffer so dramatically at the hands of their clerical elite.

This is why a campaign involving the targeted killings of Islam's clerical, financial and operational aristocracy is so vital. We must forcefully scrape away the entire top tiers of Islamism so that more conciliatory members can spread their influence.

Such a move will also have another equally vital result. It will provide "moderate" Muslims with one final chance to prove themselves worthy of this world's respect. Should Islam refuseeven in the face of such lethal forceto recalibrate its agenda over towards one of peaceful coexistence, then it would represent an unmistakable signal that the time had come to permanently dismantle it.

Posted by Zenster">Zenster 2007-11-04 15:03|| 2007-11-04 15:03|| Front Page Top

#13 Democracy might succeed in mideast islamic countries if the virulent poison of Wahhibism and fundamentalist islamic religious influences could be curtailed or minimized. It would happen faster is the Dhimmicrats and press in the U.S. would get behind the war efforts.

Posted by JohnQC 2007-11-04 16:14|| 2007-11-04 16:14|| Front Page Top

#14 The donks haven't wanted to let the Blacks off the plantation, why would they want to let the muzzies out of the mosque?

Posted by Nimble Spemble 2007-11-04 16:42|| 2007-11-04 16:42|| Front Page Top

#15 Thing is we are betting on the Arabs with the democracy thing and historically they have proven to be a bad bet. Still, if the bet pays off it pays off huge so I think it's worth the gamble.

If the bet fails the bloodshed will be bad and I think we'll all be happy that we gave them a shot, it will help the guilt with all the dead and all).

Posted by rjschwarz 2007-11-04 22:10|| 2007-11-04 22:10|| Front Page Top

23:08 twobyfour
22:10 rjschwarz
21:20 trailing wife
21:18 trailing wife
21:17 trailing wife
21:17 lotp
21:16 lotp
21:06 trailing wife
20:58 trailing wife
20:56 trailing wife
20:41 McZoid
20:41 trailing wife
20:38 Pappy
20:36 McZoid
20:19 Deacon Blues
20:02 Zenster
20:01 Jules
19:56 Damn
19:52 Crereper Bucket4485
19:52 Zenster
19:26 Zenster
19:23 Alaska Paul
19:22 Alaska Paul
19:20 Zenster