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2010-01-15 Home Front: WoT

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Posted by Atomic Conspiracy 2010-01-15 03:07|| || Front Page|| [3 views ] Top

#1 So now middle ranks are caught between Scylla of PC and Charybdis of common sense---the later studiously avoided by their superiors. Another way to weaken the only group that can effectively defend your constitution against the current threat.

Posted by g(r)omgoru 2010-01-15 04:13|| 2010-01-15 04:13|| Front Page Top

#2 Er, huh, and FBI's Main, and or Joint Counterterrorism Task Force? Any heads there to roll? Oh, just the Army. Ok, I get it.

Posted by Besoeker 2010-01-15 04:18|| 2010-01-15 04:18|| Front Page Top

#3 Well put grom. They don't care about the people actually doing things. The first head to roll should be that bastard who's first instinct was to worry about the impact Hasan could have on Muslim relations, Chairman of JCS I think. Then Gates. THEN the people who passed Hasan 'up and out'. I have no faith left in the FBI, and expect little or nothing from them.

Posted by Whiskey Mike 2010-01-15 06:06|| 2010-01-15 06:06|| Front Page Top

#4 Thanks Grom. I had exactly the same reaction to this but wasn't sure how to put it; and since I have no military experience, wasn't sure it was a valid analysis. You put it well. Ditto WM.

Posted by AlanC 2010-01-15 07:20|| 2010-01-15 07:20|| Front Page Top

#5 Sh*t rolls downhill - so should heads.

Posted by Glenmore 2010-01-15 07:41|| 2010-01-15 07:41|| Front Page Top

#6 Yeah, my first response was, "They will fire some poor guard and his supervisor instead of the people that are actually in charge."

Typical military/government CYA for the higher ups. Happens everywhere and in every country.

Posted by DarthVader 2010-01-15 07:44|| 2010-01-15 07:44|| Front Page Top

#7 I will always believe Hasan with his many terrorist connections, contacts, and money transfers simply had to be the subject of an active, on-going intelligence or counterterrorism operation.

Posted by Besoeker 2010-01-15 07:49|| 2010-01-15 07:49|| Front Page Top

#8 The military likes moral courage. One aspect is whether you're willing to risk your career to do the right thing.
It would help if, in addition to ruining your career, doing the right thing would actually make a difference.
In situations like this, doing the right thing would have ruined your career, and the maj would have gone on his merry way even though "assailed by islamophobes".

Posted by Richard Aubrey 2010-01-15 08:28|| 2010-01-15 08:28|| Front Page Top

#9 Spot on Richard. Been there, seen it happen. STILL does not preclude a confidential request for a Commander's Inquiry and/or AR 15-6 investigation, or anonymous Department of the Army Inspector General (DAIG) written complaint/phone call to DSN: 329-1060, or anonymous request for Congressional Investigation. All of which MUST be addressed and answered in writing through the chain of command. Can you imagine someone in Hasan's chain of command coming forward right now and saying:

Gosh fellas, I'm glad you finally brought this shi* up. Here is my certified letter to the DAIG at the Pentagon.

I smell leadership complacency and as you have pointed out, lack of "moral courage."

Posted by Besoeker 2010-01-15 08:58|| 2010-01-15 08:58|| Front Page Top

#10 Military medical is almost a completely different organization from the rest of the military. Everyone part of the medical system, to include Medevac, have a singular focus and a "real" mission, 24/7.

That is, unless the line military is actually fighting, they are training, and under training rules. So there is a lot of b.s. about relatively unimportant things. But medical is always serious, as they are always taking care of real medical problems. No interest in b.s.

So "militarism" is right out among the medicos, if it interferes at all with their mission. There are Colonels as young as young Captains.

Hasan is 39 years old, but this is deceptive. He was enlisted for eight years, and after his education he only became a doctor in 2003. He was only promoted from Captain to Major in 2009.

Most Army physician medical officers go through their Officer Basic Course as Captains. If they are in highly desired specialties, as soon as they graduate, they are promoted.

Compared to the rest of the army, he is like a 32 year old PFC.

Since almost his entire time in ranks as an officer was in school, I am not surprised that his being a kook was ignored, as long as he did well at school. Think of it as the "Hawkeye Pierce" model. They don't care if they are a good officer, as long as they are a good, or at least passable doctor.

Posted by Anonymoose 2010-01-15 09:06|| 2010-01-15 09:06|| Front Page Top

#11 Not sure, but I recall that he was not proficient, hardly passable, at his job.

Posted by Whiskey Mike 2010-01-15 09:17|| 2010-01-15 09:17|| Front Page Top

#12 Correct. He was NOT a passable doc; he had multiple problems both at the medical school and in his residency. He was on academic probation and had failed several courses at the med school. He took six years to graduate instead of four. His residency performance was marginal.

I appreciate (and agree with) the idea that military medical is 'on call' all the time. Hasan was letting people down from the time he entered medical school to the time he shot up Fort Hood and murdered the people there.

People responsible in the medical school and residency program need to be held to account.

Posted by Steve White 2010-01-15 09:37|| 2010-01-15 09:37|| Front Page Top

#13 An article in The American Thinker on 1-15-2010 by Lance Fairchok

Political correctness and group exceptionalism let him, and probably others, skip by...If he were a member of a militia however, he would have been out. The DOD's security clearance questionnaire asks about militia membership, but not a peep about radical or violent Islamic groups.

We've got a problem with PC throughout our society that causes untold problems. Being mealy-mouthed, weasel-worded, or PC just makes us stupid.

Posted by JohnQC 2010-01-15 09:39|| 2010-01-15 09:39|| Front Page Top

#14 Unfortunately it really has gone well beyond simple PC attitudes. Gov't sanctioned 'group think' has now been institutionalized via 40+ years of affirmative action and other guilt based, 'feel good lets fix it' programes.

Posted by Besoeker 2010-01-15 09:52|| 2010-01-15 09:52|| Front Page Top

#15 Any officer or enlisted man who did as the Secretary of Defense asks would have been labeled a racist and drummed out of the service.

The President knows that.

The Secretary of Defense knows that.

Every man and woman in the Services knows that.

Every man, woman, and child in the United States knows that.

Posted by Kelly 2010-01-15 10:27|| 2010-01-15 10:27|| Front Page Top

#16 So , his programme director , his educational supervisor , clinical supervisor , associate deans , panel sessions , annual reviews of competency , and fellow 'registrars' didnt pick up on his behaviour ?

The mind boggles .. It truely does .

I dont know how it works in the USA , but medical recruitment is pretty stiff and rigid over across the pond, the military feed staff into civil sectors for core training .

5 years in Med school
2 years in Foundation
3 years on the job training

and then prove fitness to practise every 5 years along with appraisals and CPDs

It can only seem to me that politically correct overruled medical judgement. If that is the case then one can only envisage a total overhaul of the militarys medical recruitment policys.

Posted by Oscar 2010-01-15 10:38|| 2010-01-15 10:38|| Front Page Top

#17 Keep in mind that 50% of all doctors graduated in the bottom half of their class. He sure swings the bell curve tho'.

Posted by Solomon Glulet1502 2010-01-15 10:47|| 2010-01-15 10:47|| Front Page Top

#18 Ok so lets roll the clock back a year. Lets say I'm at Ft Hood and GirlThursday tells me he's a terrorist ( cause I'm a stupid officer that live in my own world)love ya GT, but could not resist. I check and agree thinking he a potential hand grenade. So I send a letter to the IG and CID explaining I think this guy believes we are wrong on this war. I say in my opinion he could be a threat to our soldiers. At the very least I think he should not be giving support to troops that he does not support. Lets say I am lucky enough to be at every event where he openly sites we are wrong. Both agencies will call him in. He will spout that I am a muzzie hater and I am the problem. They will not have probable cause to dig through his emails sent from home. He is a peace loving muzzie and CAIR will sue the FU(K out of me in civil court. It won't matter much because I will be put out of the Army on Racial and slander charges. I will be remided this is America and even dumbass muzzies get free speech aroud here. Remember its not a crime in America to speak your voice, it is a crime to slander someone. Our lower leaders know too well that this is how it works. It's not about being bold, it's all about the PC culture at the TOP! Up until the time when he walked into the replacement depot with a gun he broke no laws. Being a muzzie with a gun in Texas is not against the law. Believeing that we are wrong in Afghanistan and iraq is not a crime, or Murtha, Reid, and the majority of both houses would be in jail.

We are all frustrated here. He walked a seam in America's system that I don't believe we can fix. We do not need to build a McCarthy era all over. I do have exception to the officers that were standing there when he said the things he did. Those folks needed to take his ass out back. Confront him, make an event out of it.

Where I believe we failed, both the system and our soldiers is in the OER process. It is slow and has its own set of issues but the standards he failed to achieve in school was our only real safeguard against this nut. And not so much about him going on a shooting pree but his ability to provide a level of care.

We should never let ourselves believe he went to med school, then joined the Army, and went through the Army schools, so he could walk into a depot and kill a handfull of soldiers. What we failed to recognise is he was a weak doctor, poor student, and did not provide the level of care our troops deserved. This could have put him out to go shoot up a 7-11 and then blame it on the Army.

Posted by 49 Pan 2010-01-15 11:13|| 2010-01-15 11:13|| Front Page Top

#19 Being a muzzie with a gun in Texas is not against the law.

Correctly me if I'm wrong, but Ft Hood was a no-gun zone. The law and regulations are different the moment you enter the federal military installation from Texas.

After failing to purge the CIA after 9/11 and seeing the consequences of business as usual, this time some have to be held accountable if any change is to occur. There are a lot of things in the military which are just a big ass problem waiting to happen. The question is when not if. And anyone who's been in a position that involves said situation, just hopes they're not the one on station when the proverbial crap hits the fan. It's not about 'fair'. There is no 'fair'. It's about dealing with human behavior particularly the one to shuffle the problem off without anyone being held accountable.

When the 507th Maintenance got ambushed at the start of the last Iraq campaign everyone knew that CSS personnel were not getting even basic training in dealing with combat environments. It took that disaster to finally get the Army to face up to that gross deficiency. Unfortunately, it takes such bloody wake up calls before the lumbering institution will pay attention. Nothing makes it pay attention as to watch heads roll.

Posted by Procopius2k 2010-01-15 12:35|| 2010-01-15 12:35|| Front Page Top

#20 Procopius.Wrt combat training for support units:
There's no PC organization dedicated to preventing combat training for support units.
Thus, the military can get its act together in this area without argument.
See the diff?

Posted by Richard Aubrey 2010-01-15 13:16|| 2010-01-15 13:16|| Front Page Top

#21 #3,4 De Nada. I wish I was wrong.

Posted by g(r)omgoru 2010-01-15 13:31|| 2010-01-15 13:31|| Front Page Top

#22 Gee, how ironic that there are some places in this world that this headline would be more than a metaphor....

Posted by Uncle Phester 2010-01-15 14:18|| 2010-01-15 14:18|| Front Page Top

#23 Good news. And I apologize for my unfounded criticism of all Officers of the other day. I was really out of line, its just that we had two officers in one unit that almost killed troops by friendly accidental fire/ and also the missing 200,000 of equipment incident. Long, boring stories that are off limits, but the Officer Corps does seem in need of a few upgrades in the Army. I should have distinguished "psychiatry" from other areas. Sigh. Good can come out of all the turmoil though, hopefully. Hope you forgive me, and I am out of the Army now so I can finally express myself, but I go overboard sometimes.

Posted by GirtThursday 2010-01-15 14:33|| 2010-01-15 14:33|| Front Page Top

#24 GirlThursday, you are an asset to this site in my opinion, nor am I alone. You've discovered the flip side of a righteous rant, which is that no matter the subject there are Rantburgers with the knowledge to challenge one's positions. Respect is earnt by either supporting one's statements with data, gracefully conceding the point, or modifying the position to take into account valid objections. You passed that test just now. Well done, dear! :-)

Posted by trailing wife 2010-01-15 16:11|| 2010-01-15 16:11|| Front Page Top

#25 Any officer or enlisted man who did as the Secretary of Defense asks would have been labeled a racist and drummed out of the service.

What is important in that sentence is the use of the past tense. Perhaps Gates' comment is a signal that things are starting to change. I would not be surprised to see PC, affirmative action, and objections to profiling be a thing of the past in 5 years. There's a whole lot of change coming, but not what some had hoped for.

Posted by Nimble Spemble 2010-01-15 16:24|| 2010-01-15 16:24|| Front Page Top

#26 nimble.
I'll believe it when I see it and I don't expect to see it.
In the first place, the officers and EM will not believe Gates. There's no reason they should.
Somebody will have to try to bell the cat and end up not thrown out.
Problem is, he'll be thrown out--imo--and so everybody else will learn the lesson.

Posted by Richard Aubrey 2010-01-15 16:52|| 2010-01-15 16:52|| Front Page Top

#27 Girl Thursday, your all good. Your point of view is appriciated round here, its yours, dont apologise. We do however bite back. I was out with a CPT and he called arty in on us back in 82! Damn near got us too. Had to teach him about fire missions in the dark.

Posted by 49 Pan 2010-01-15 17:44|| 2010-01-15 17:44|| Front Page Top

#28 I'll believe it when I see it and I don't expect to see it.

That's a very reasonable position. But we're living in very unreasonable times. I suspect the world will look as different 5 years from now as 1930 seemed in 1935. But I could be wrong.

Posted by Nimble Spemble 2010-01-15 18:19|| 2010-01-15 18:19|| Front Page Top

#29 I was out with a CPT and he called arty in on us back in 82!

49, remind me some time over drinks to tell you about the FA-18 pilot who dropped a practice bomb on on the foc'sle of one of our squadron's cruisers. Or the A-6 crew during GWI doing a RTB clear-load who, had they dropped their bombs ten seconds later, would have taken out one of their own ships.

So yeah, there's f-ckups. Some of them get called on it sooner or later. Others get a pass.

Posted by Pappy 2010-01-15 18:56|| 2010-01-15 18:56|| Front Page Top

#30 Procopius.Wrt combat training for support units:
There's no PC organization dedicated to preventing combat training for support units.

Ah, think again. When the Battle of the Bulge happened in December 1944, there were no clerks, no bakers, no mechanics. They all became infantrymen. In January 1968 in Tet, again, there were no clerks, no bakers, no mechanics. They all became infantrymen. They weren't up there in skill with the line personnel, but they made a good showing of themselves none the less.

Something happened between then an the debacle of the 507th. The Army altered its personnel makeup which changed its composition but failed to make adjustments to compensate for that social change. It required more, not less, training to make up for social change. It was known and ignored. PC said they're all the same, interchangeable, it didn't make a difference, till it bit them in the ass in a manner they couldn't ignore or hide.

Posted by Procopius2k 2010-01-15 19:11|| 2010-01-15 19:11|| Front Page Top

#31 The purpose of an Army/Air Force/Navy is to close with the enemy and do whatever it takes to prevent said enemy from hurting us.

When did you last see this on a recruiting ad?

(Please note that I left out the Marines)

Posted by Kelly 2010-01-15 19:58|| 2010-01-15 19:58|| Front Page Top

#32 procopius.
During the Battle of The Bulge, there was no influential group in the US organized to prevent the use of cooks, clerks and jerks, ash &trash, and other remfs as Infantry.
Today, we have CAIR and all the PC morons who will violently oppose what it takes to prevent another Ft. Hood type shooting.
That's the diff I was referring to. To which I was referring.

Posted by Richard Aubrey 2010-01-15 23:01|| 2010-01-15 23:01|| Front Page Top

23:38 JosephMendiola
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22:42 Mullah Richard
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