#1  The Saudi PR campaign is getting more and more lame. The expats mass migration out says it all. Many of them will be talking about their experiences, so more people will know what is REALLY happening in the Magic Kingdom. The Saudi princes have rotted out and they have not even started to reform themselve. They are doomed, DOOMED, I tell ya.

Posted by: Alaska Paul || 09/12/2004 14:30 Comments || Top||

#2  All their ads do is piss me off more

Posted by: Frank G || 09/12/2004 14:49 Comments || Top||

#1  We have satellites whose purpose is to detect above-ground nuclear explosions. The physics of a nuclear detonation are such that it produces a very distinctive signature in the form of a double flash of light. If a blast doesn't display that characteristic, then it isn't nuclear. My guess is that it's this satellite data that's the basis for Powell's statement.

Posted by: Dave D. || 09/12/2004 18:29 Comments || Top||

#2  "We can’t tell whether it’s normal maintenance activity or something more," Based upon my college education in physics, work at the Nevada Test Site, and a facilities director for 18 years, I can categorically say that this event is NOT normal maintenance!! activity.

Posted by: Alaska Paul || 09/12/2004 18:54 Comments || Top||

#3  Politcos once again parsing words while the world teeters on the brink... _______________________ Hiroshima wasn't a nuclear blast either..."merely" an atomic one... __________________________________ NASDAQ didn't "collapse" in March 2000...it merely began its "consolidation at lower levels..."

Posted by: borgboy || 09/12/2004 19:14 Comments || Top||

#4  A nuclear detonation can be detected optically (via a distinct double flash that all nuclear explosions have) or seismically virtually anywhere in the globe. If NK detonated a nuke, trust me a lot a people would know.

Posted by: Valentine || 09/12/2004 21:16 Comments || Top||

#5  Commie states are just economically and geopolitically minor states armed with nukes - All things equal, it behooves the USA to watch North Korea and Asia, more than IRAN, SYRIA, AFRICA, et al. WHilst CHina will not stand for a nuclear North Korea with an independent arsenal, neither will she stands for any nuclearized democratic Japan or SOuth Korea. China and NK need nukes both for international credibility, as well as self-defense and ideo justification of the continuing centralization and militarization of their perennially poor or backward societies. Iff one accepts that Radical Islam is nothing more than PC/Deniable Mercs for AMerica's COld War Communist enemies, then given the anti-US agenda both within and outside the US per se, if the Failed Left intends to destabilize and take over AMerica without need for mutually-destroying GLOBAL NUCLEAR WAR, then they need China, et al. to engage in Limited War [ Conventional/Limited TacNuke] against the USA. CHINA is the only nation that can likely stand devastating to catastrophic manpower losses against tech-superior US/Allied milfors,. and any US-China shooting war in East Asia allows China to take care of three-PLUS problems/competitors to her hegemony - TAIWAN, SOUTH KOREA, and ESPEC JAPAN, and possibly also the PHILIPPINES-VIETNAM! China can NOT possibly nor successfully challenge the US/USN/USAF as far out as WESTPAC and CENTPAC POAS without de facto control of vital staging areas or airsea lanes, read - LAND! GIVEN THE CLINTON-LED PERVERSIONS AND SUBVERSIONS OF ISSUES AND STEREOTYPES HERE IN AMERICA, DON'T UNDERESTIMATE THE WILLINGNESS OF THE COMMIES TO SEEMINGLY GO AGAINST THEIR OWN OR THEIR OWN INTERESTS, IF IN THE END IT MEANS THEIR VICTORY OR POWER! Candidate Kerry may be categorized as a Liberal, but the now PRO-PROGRESSIVE, CLinton-led Democratic Party has all but officially discarded dedicated Left-Liberals unto the GOP and American Right, and it isn't just because its an election year! Liberals are ultimately intended to longer compare to sur-Socialist Progressives, SOcialists per se, and espec Communist SOcialists, even though by the Clinton definitions both the GOP and Dems are [FASCIST/RIGHTIST] versions of the other, besides also being covert Communist and Left-based SOcialists, and also living in majority or predom Communist and Left-Socialist manistream America! Traditional American ,Western, and GOP-RIGHTIST democrats and WCapitalists are now, SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS SSSSSHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH, outside the America Commie and Socialist mainstream Clintonism = 2004 and post-2004 POTUS ELEX, any each and all, is ULTIMATELY ABOUT "KIND OF AMERICAN SOCIALISM", NOTSOMUCH SOCIALISM VS CAPITALISM ALTHOUGH IS ALSO IS! BUTTTTTTTTTT, since Rightist Unitarian capitalist America is making alleged error and mistake after alleged error and mistake, error-prone AMerica ALSO CAN'T BE TRUSTED WITH GLOBALISM OR RULING THE WORLD, ERGO AMERICA, AND BY EXTENS ANY CURRENT OR FUTURE AMERICA SOCIALISM, ALSO CAN'T BE TRUSTED ERGO SOMEONE ELSE, SOME NATIONS OR REGION, ANDOR SOME ENTITY SHOULD AND MUST MAKE ALL THE RULES, DECISIONS, POLICIES, AND ACTIONS FOR MISTAKE-RIDDEN, MISTAKE-RPONE, UNTRUSTWORTHY AMERICA! GEE WHIZZZ WHILLICKERS, I WONDER WHAT TWO COLD-WAR SOCIALIST AND COMMIE NUCLEAR SUPER-STATES CAN AMERICAN AND INTERNATIONAL COMMIES AND SOCIES FIND TO HANDLE ANYTHING AND EVERYTHING FOR AMERICA AND THE WORLD, ESPEC IFF OWG AND AN AMERICA UNDER OWG IS TO TAKE PLACE BY 2015 NLT 2020 AS PER THE LEFTBLOGS??? EVEN POSTERS ON PRAVDA SAY THE WORLD SHOULD HAVE THE RIGHT AND PRIVELEGE TO ELECT ANY AND ALL US PRESIDENTS - I WONDER WHAT -ISM DOES CLINTONIAN COMMUNIST/SOCIALIST MAJORITY, REPUBLICAN AND FASCIST AND CAPITALIST AMERICA NEEDS TO ACCOMPLISH THAT???

Posted by: JosephMendiola || 09/12/2004 23:55 Comments || Top||

#6  Here...have some cookies and milk.

Posted by: Rafael || 09/13/2004 0:05 Comments || Top||

#7  Sigh. Thorazine on aisle 5. Make it a double.

Posted by: .com || 09/13/2004 0:21 Comments || Top||

#8  Your argument has one insurmountable flaw: it's "prone", not "rpone."

Posted by: Another Dan || 09/13/2004 0:26 Comments || Top||

#9  Oh god...we got the troll from Bill Quick's site here now.

Posted by: Valentine || 09/13/2004 0:48 Comments || Top||

#10  Joseph, darling, please don't shout. It makes us hard of hearing. And introducing just a few paragraph breaks would make it easier for the reader to figure out exactly what it is you are trying to say.

Posted by: trailing wife || 09/13/2004 1:22 Comments || Top||

#1  For reasons that OldSpook covered thoroughly last night, the odds that Thursday's explosion was truly nuclear seem remote, but even if was a genuine nuke, my question remains the same: what story will Kim's domestic audience hear? Whether it was uranium, munitions, or fertilizer, any explosion big enough to produce a mushroom cloud "kilometers across" requires an explanation, even (especially?) in the world's most paranoid regime. Admitting a massive military accident would be regime suicide, so his only two broad options (unless someone else can suggest an alternative) are either 1) a successful home-grown nuke, or 2) an enemy attack. Two high body counts in a matter of months is good evidence that even NK's pampered military is being run "on the cheap," and that means that literally anything could happen next. What angle will Pyongyang take on this? I wish secretive Stalinist regimes weren't so damned ... secretive.

Posted by: Another Dan || 09/12/2004 23:20 Comments || Top||

#2  A Dan, why should the Bouffant One's subjects be told anything? When dissidents get sent to the medical experimentation building, and shirkers lose their grass ration, a certain lack of curiousity develops. If anything, it was probably announced that fireworks were set off to celebrate the Dear Leader's latest golf score.

Posted by: trailing wife || 09/13/2004 1:30 Comments || Top||

#1  Another railroad accident?

Posted by: trailing wife || 09/12/2004 2:40 Comments || Top||

#2  "A mushroom-shaped cloud about 3.5 to 4 kilometers (about 2-2 1/2 miles) in diameter was monitored during the explosion"...somebody with a pyrotechnical background can maybe explain how many kilo tons of TNT we need for a regular North Korean mushroom cloud......nothing to worry about I guess grmpfff

Posted by: Dutchgeek || 09/12/2004 6:09 Comments || Top||

#3  I call bullshit and more leftist attempts to play down the danger from the Norks, courtesy of Roh Moo-hyun's party ...

Posted by: Edward Yee || 09/12/2004 10:16 Comments || Top||

#4  Possible linkage: 1) It was revealed that South Korea had been futzing around with nuclear stuff; 2) Colin Powell went and jacked up the Chinese (I suspect he told them to sit on the Norks or the US couldn't stop SK, Japan, and Taiwan from going nuke); 3) The Chinese warn the Norks; 4) The Norks probably blow off the Chinese, again, just like they did right before the trains blew up; and 5) Something else big, on the border with China, blows up. That is, I suspect the Chinese don't like to be told to "stick it".

Posted by: Anonymoose || 09/12/2004 10:56 Comments || Top||

#5  somebody with a pyrotechnical background can maybe explain how many kilo tons of TNT we need for a regular North Korean mushroom cloud...... Approximately 6400(SLs).

Posted by: Dr Science MS || 09/12/2004 11:35 Comments || Top||

#6  I poasted this to other threads - but imagine several tons fo muntiions or rocket fuel being explosively ignited. Now look into the region where this "mushroom cloud" occurred. Did some digging. Here's a bit of open source unclassified geography lesson for you guys. Yongjo-ri is in the area of the explosion. This area is known for its munitions factories and has several rail lines that form a nexus there. The Rodong/Nodong missle factories and storage depots are also within 10Km of this town. And remember - any large explosion that is intense enough to produce a central column of heated fast-moving air mixed with dust/particles will produce the vortices on the outside that cause the "mushroom" to appear. Draw your own conclusion.

Posted by: OldSpook || 09/12/2004 11:44 Comments || Top||

#7  The Rodong/Nodong missle factories and storage depots are were also within 10Km of this town

Posted by: Frank G || 09/12/2004 11:48 Comments || Top||

#8  Map in this article from S. Korea. Gov't Confirms 'Non-Nuclear' N. Korean Explosion

Posted by: 3dc || 09/12/2004 12:30 Comments || Top||

#9  I wonder how many Syrians bought the farm in this "accident"

Posted by: Frank G || 09/12/2004 12:35 Comments || Top||

#10  Last paragraph from 3dc's link: "The government official said, 'We will be able to know the exact cause only after North Korea makes an official statement or intelligence authorities announces the results of their analysis.'" Yeah, like that's gonna happen. And if they do say anything, it'll probably be a fireworks factory that blew up. Anyone find any satellite pics of this yet? I read somewhere the explosion happened too fast to track, and then I read in another article satellites tipped the incident off.

Posted by: nada || 09/12/2004 13:03 Comments || Top||

#11  Just thinking, if the US *did* have some kind of satellite rail-gun, that could shoot relatively small kinetic projectiles at ridiculous speeds accurately from space...

Posted by: Anonymoose || 09/12/2004 13:56 Comments || Top||

#12  When you have thousands of tons of munitions you can get the pseudonuclear effect. This incident in NORK may be similar to the one that happened in Port Chicago in 1944. Exerpts: On the evening of 17 July 1944, the empty merchant ship SS Quinault Victory was prepared for loading on her maiden voyage. The SS E.A. Bryan, another merchant ship, had just returned from her first voyage and was loading across the platform from Quinault Victory. The holds were packed with high explosive and incendiary bombs, depth charges, and ammunition - 4,606 tons of ammunition in all. There were sixteen rail cars on the pier with another 429 tons. Working in the area were 320 cargo handlers, crewmen and sailors. At 10:18 p.m., a hollow ring and the sound of splintering wood erupted from the pier, followed by an explosion that ripped apart the night sky. Witnesses said that a brilliant white flash shot into the air, accompanied by a loud, sharp report. A column of smoke billowed from the pier, and fire glowed orange and yellow. Flashing like fireworks, smaller explosions went off in the cloud as it rose. Within six seconds, a deeper explosion erupted as the contents of the E.A. Bryan detonated in one massive explosion. The seismic shock wave was felt as far away as Boulder City, Nevada. The E.A. Bryan and the structures around the pier were completely disintegrated. A pillar of fire and smoke stretched over two miles into the sky above Port Chicago. The largest remaining pieces of the 7,200-ton ship were the size of a suitcase. A plane flying at 9,000 feet reported seeing chunks of white hot metal "as big as a house" flying past. The shattered Quinault Victory was spun into the air. Witnesses reported seeing a 200-foot column on which rode the bow of the ship, its mast still attached. Its remains crashed back into the bay 500 feet away. All 320 men on duty that night were killed instantly. The blast smashed buildings and rail cars near the pier and damaged every building in Port Chicago. People on the base and in town were sent flying or were sprayed with splinters of glass and other debris. The air filled with the sharp cracks and dull thuds of smouldering metal and unexploded shells as they showered back to earth as far as two miles away. The blast caused damage 48 miles across the Bay in San Francisco.

Posted by: Alaska Paul || 09/12/2004 14:51 Comments || Top||

#13  One other thing: the Norks have long planned to set barrage rates for their artillery across the DMZ to exceed 400,000 shells an hour. That requires huge amounts of ammunition, and the Communists love to ahve everythign in centrally contraooled and planned areas. So you get a very few HUGE weapons and ammunition depots with unbelievable amounts of ordnance. One of those goes off, it is a real mess. Ask the Soviet Northern Fleet about it from 1984 or 1985 (IIRC).

Posted by: OldSpook || 09/12/2004 16:43 Comments || Top||

#14  But isn't that explosion pretty far from the DMZ and pretty close to China? Or am I too slow on the pick-up?

Posted by: Mrs. Davis || 09/12/2004 16:58 Comments || Top||

#15  Very close to China. IN mountainous areas. Easier for them to secure and control. Remember that the dictatorship there doesnt want ANYONE to have the ability to put weaponry together except the command authority, and even then, only when and where they want. If you store the ammo locally and the local commanders have access, they can arm their weapons, and fire easily and quickly in the event of a war - something the US does. But for a dictatorship, having a local commander that had that kind of firepower makes a rebellion that much easier to start and that much harder to suppress. Dictatorships require a disarmed populace, and a large but relatively low-on-ammo military, and heavy forces in the Secret Police mode that have lots of ammo.

Posted by: OldSpook || 09/12/2004 18:33 Comments || Top||

#16  #13 One other thing: the Norks have long planned to set barrage rates for their artillery across the DMZ to exceed 400,000 shells an hour. OldSpook, I've heard these sort of estimates for a long time. Without wanting you to reveal anything not already in the public domain, aren't these figures extremely unrealistic? Here's some cocktail napkin calculations: 400,000 rounds per hour represents a firing rate of well over 6,000 rounds per minute, or 100 per second. Assuming a very generous cycle time of two rounds per minute, it still requires over 3,000 field pieces to deliver such a barrage. North Korea's well known poverty imposes some pretty harsh limitations upon, not just safety - as we so often see, but also on how often they can refresh their munitions or refurbish and calibrate the guns. If either are outdated the rate of misfires and equipment failure will rise dramatically. I do not see where the North has sufficient monetary resources to periodically live-fire the number of guns needed to sustain such a shelling rate. The cost of ammunition and the wear on equipment alone would represent an enormous expenditure. Just to have that many shells in storage plus the cost of refreshing their propellant and explosives every few years would be outrageously expensive. At $100 per shell (averaged for original manufacturing cost and periodic rework) for a three hour barrage, that's well over TEN MILLION DOLLARS worth of munitions right there. Spreading out the refurbishment cycle over five years still demands some two million dollars per annum above that original price just to keep their inventory ahead of its shelf life. None of this takes into account the cost of handling, storage and rework facilities or even the ancillary cost of maintaining the guns themselves. Combined, a conservative cost estimate would be on the order of TEN MILLION dollars a year, just for the artillery and munitions. They also have tanks and planes, plus their rocketry to fund as well. I'm thinking that the North Koreans are sitting on a mountain of dud shells and corroded guns that will breech detonate and kill their field crews half the time. Please feel free to correct any misapprehensions I may have stated above.

Posted by: Zenster || 09/12/2004 18:47 Comments || Top||

#17  Mossad. Obviously.

Posted by: borgboy || 09/12/2004 19:17 Comments || Top||

#18  They do plan on it. They have enough tubes and crews. And its a surge rate, not a sustained rate for more than several hours. And I'd surmise they have the fire elevations engraved on the guns and directions already staked in the firing positions for thier first 12 hours worth of fire missions. They've had decades to do that. And accuracy is not all that much needed - they intend to do a WW-I style drum/walking barrage (after the initial TOT fire on the highest priority targets). They want volume to make up for accuracy - and given that their targets for most of those shells will be fixed depots, forts, C3I centers, and then will move to terroizing cities (notably Seoul), you dont need much accuracy. As to poverty, they are poor precisely because all their wealth goes into their armaments. Plus a few big heroin sales and missle sales (to Iran, etc) and they can recoup a lot of that quickly. Plus, remember exactly what I said. Remember John Kerry also plans to be President.

Posted by: OldSpook || 09/12/2004 21:08 Comments || Top||

#19  OldSpook, I realize that North Korea's poverty is a direct result of them diverting so much of their revenue into arms buildup. I just think that they are spread way too thin to have been so rigorous with munitions replacement protocols. Like I said, a three hour barrage would entail 1,200,000 shells. If it went on for twelve hours, that's almost 5,000,000 shells. No small potatoes. That's a whole lot of magazine space plus transportation and handling logistics, especially when such assets are concentrated in order to avoid alternate use by disgruntled officers. Thank you for responding, I was just curious.

Posted by: Zenster || 09/12/2004 21:35 Comments || Top||

#20  No matter what the exact numbers are, the Norks must have a HUGE stockpile of shells. What happens with old munitions that are past their 'best if used before' date? Do they become duds or do they become touchy and prone to react spontaneously?

Posted by: SteveS || 09/13/2004 0:12 Comments || Top||

#21  I am hoping that this was a manufacturing facility or sime portion of their proliferation network. If weapons and drugs provide the majority of your hard currency, then it's not a stretch to put your ammunition factories on 24 hour 7 day a week schedules. Maintenance becomes an unaffordable luxury when attempting to achieve an impossible production schedule promulgated by idiots above.If we are lucky, irreplaceable capital assets have been slagged.

Posted by: Super Hose || 09/13/2004 1:12 Comments || Top||

#1  Well, We've all waited for the other "Kimmy Shoe" to drop, and now it has!! It's poker time now,,, The US has got to put up or shut up! Damn if Bush wasn't right on, with the Axis Of Evil! Iran Next!!!

Posted by: smn || 09/12/2004 1:12 Comments || Top||

#2  NAN. Not A Nuke.

Posted by: OldSpook || 09/12/2004 1:34 Comments || Top||

#3  IF this was a nuclear explosion there would be plenty on noise about this. It was a convertional explosion or a huge industrial accident.

Posted by: Sock Puppet of Doom || 09/12/2004 1:37 Comments || Top||

#4  NAN. That a personal opinion or a professional one? Awful lot of stuff going "boom" in Norkland these days. Seems like the probability of all of these being industrial accidents is becoming vanishingly small. :)

Posted by: AzCat || 09/12/2004 1:46 Comments || Top||

#5  Oldspook, I don't remember, but were you around here during the last suspected nuclear explosion in North Korea?

Posted by: Phil Fraering || 09/12/2004 1:47 Comments || Top||

#6  The missile base in that area is underground, so possibly a catastrophic explosion of a few of these missiles underground could vent explosive gases upwards at some velocity, causing a mushroom cloud.

Posted by: Lux || 09/12/2004 8:47 Comments || Top||

#7  Lux, thats a very good supposition. And, given the silence of the Juche Publicity Machine, its very plausible. forest fire = they blame the US for it. they do a nuke = they brag about it. They hose up their own missle storage facility, which "doesn't exist because Dear Leader says so", and you get silence. Just think what happens when you maintain large amounts of stored rocket fuel components, and have someone get careless...

Posted by: OldSpook || 09/12/2004 10:46 Comments || Top||

#8  easy enough to sample the air and tell if radiation was released even if sampled from Japan. Agreed: Not a nuke, or jucheland would be having parades and confetti

Posted by: Frank G || 09/12/2004 11:02 Comments || Top||

#9  Did some digging. Here's a bit of open source unclassified geography lesson for you guys. Yongjo-ri is in the area of the explosion. This area is known for its munitions factories and has several rail lines that form a nexus there. The Rodong/Nodong missle factories and storage depots are also within 10Km of this town. Draw your own conclusion.

Posted by: OldSpook || 09/12/2004 11:40 Comments || Top||

#10  #8 easy enough to sample the air and tell if radiation was released even if sampled from Japan. End of story. #9 This area is known for its munitions factories and has several rail lines that form a nexus there. All the ingredients for another Iranian-style train bomb.

Posted by: Zenster || 09/12/2004 14:33 Comments || Top||

#11  We have seismometers up the ying yang in SKor. I am sure that we are sampling the cloud just to be sure in NKor. A UAV would be good for this little job. We will be able to surmise what components made the explosion. We ain't gonna say nothin' for now.

Posted by: Alaska Paul || 09/12/2004 15:00 Comments || Top||

#1  It's perfectly clear, The US must "detente" the status of South Korea, to check the North. This calls for a Battle Group in the area as a show of resolve!

Posted by: smn || 09/12/2004 1:15 Comments || Top||

#2  Maybe it was Kim's head exploding because GWB refuses to pull a "Clinton/Carter".

Posted by: Bomb-a-rama || 09/12/2004 4:44 Comments || Top||

#3  A forest fire cause is ludicrous. However, too much white slag in one location will produce a critical mass, and then.......

Posted by: Alaska Paul || 09/12/2004 19:29 Comments || Top||

#1  It seems some people saw it was coming soon.

Posted by: jn1 || 09/12/2004 0:16 Comments || Top||

#2  Several officials speculated that the test, if it occurred, could be intended to influence the presidential election, though a senior military official said while "an election surprise" could be the motive, "I'm not sure what that would buy them." Probably four more years of Bush.

Posted by: tu3031 || 09/12/2004 0:20 Comments || Top||

#3  Was it atomic? or another "accident" as has happened in the last 12 months in both Iran and NoKo? there are the battles we are all invited to see, and there are the hidden operations (I hope!). Where was their fearless leader at the time of the explosion?

Posted by: Kalle (kafir forever) || 09/12/2004 0:30 Comments || Top||

#4  Just throwing out a scenario here (not asserting this, just wondering), but maybe it was a conventional explosion meant to look like a nuke test for the domestic audience. Even if the rest of the world knows beyond any doubt that it wasn't nuclear, who's to know in North Korea? Yeah, it's pretty farfetched, but it's basically the same reasoning behind their "successful ICBM/satellite launch" that went sploosh in the West Pacific a few years back. If so, it's more evidence that the home crowd is getting restless. Worth keeping an eye on KCNA over the next few days.

Posted by: Another Dan || 09/12/2004 0:49 Comments || Top||

#5  Free astrological chart provided by http://www.alabe.com/freechart/ Name: North Korea September 9 1948 12:00 PM Time Zone is JST Pyongyang, NKOR Rising Sign is in 24 Degrees Scorpio You tend to be quiet, reserved, secretive and, at times, quite difficult to understand. Others notice your deep emotions and feelings and wonder how to draw you out. Stubborn and tough, you fight for any position you believe in. You are very resourceful and formidable when you become angered or upset about something. You enjoy living life at the cutting edge -- for you life must be experienced intensely and totally. Quite courageous, you are willing to take calculated risks. Easily hurt by others, you often strike back with bitter sarcasm. Sensitive and curious, you are concerned with the deeper mysteries of human psychology. Once you have become interested in any subject, you pursue it with total fanaticism. Sun is in 16 Degrees Virgo. Extremely careful and cautious by nature, you value neatness and order above all else. You rigorously practice very high standards of living and conduct and you demand the same of everyone with whom you come into contact. At times, you are so supercritical that you are merely nit-picky. You are very good at practical skills and quite handy with tools of all kinds. You are also greatly concerned with hygiene, cleanliness and personal health problems. Very likely your health is much better than you think it is -- don't worry so much! Extremely methodical and analytical, you are a perfectionist -- this makes you the perfect person to carry out highly detailed, precise operations. But, at times, you pay so much attention to details that you lose sight of the larger issues.

Posted by: Seafarious || 09/12/2004 0:53 Comments || Top||

#6  Very likely your health is much better than you think it is -- don't worry so much! Yeah. That "eating" thing? Overrated...

Posted by: tu3031 || 09/12/2004 1:02 Comments || Top||

#7  Just heard on the radio at the 12:00 am (CST) news break (ABC News) that a "CIA Case Officer" said it was a forest fire, "no big deal."

Posted by: Laurence of the Rats || 09/12/2004 1:02 Comments || Top||

#8  A mushroom cloud-shaped forest fire? Ummm...okaaaaay...

Posted by: Seafarious || 09/12/2004 1:10 Comments || Top||

#9  Huge explosions and mushroom clouds? That's a helluva forest fire...

Posted by: tu3031 || 09/12/2004 1:11 Comments || Top||

#10  Nothing to see here. If it were, N Korea would have Juche-Salad spread all over the news. You'd at least get a few good days of propaganda from the Bouffant Dictator's press guys. And as far as a "fool the sensors" type of conventional explosion, not that easy: the intensity and gradient of the thermal activity in a nuclear detonation is unmistakable, and virtually impossible to fake (no real way to get conventional stuff to flash that intensely in that short a time then have the wavefront move at the right velocity), not to mention the absence EMP from a "fake". You'd have better luck trying to fake a TOW missle using a sh*tload of bottlerockets.

Posted by: OldSpook || 09/12/2004 1:15 Comments || Top||

#11  I wasn't aware that there were any trees or grass left in NK. Regardless, the whole "CIA case officer" line from the radio reminded me of every nitwit reporter that calls a bulldozer a "tank" just because a soldier is driving it.

Posted by: Laurence of the Rats || 09/12/2004 1:23 Comments || Top||

#12  OldSpook, absolutely. As you and I both say, all of those measurable observations would be both obvious and quantifiable to the outside world. But if the state media paint this story with the Juche brush, how would Mr. and Mrs. Pyongyang ever know otherwise? "But Dear Leader, no electromagnetic pulse crashed my laptop while I was checking CBS document forgery updates on Little Green Footballs. How can that be?"

Posted by: Another Dan || 09/12/2004 1:33 Comments || Top||

#13  Well, We've all waited for the other "Kimmy Shoe" to drop, and now it has!! It's poker time now,,, The US has got to put up or shut up! Damn if Bush wasn't right on, with the Axis Of Evil! Iran Next!!!

Posted by: smn || 09/12/2004 1:38 Comments || Top||

#14  Case in point, here's KCNA's Juche-saturated proclamation of the supposed satellite launch in '98 (notice it's dated nearly a week after the incident), despite the entire outside world having watched it splash into the ocean. Rantburgers are so used to pissing our pants laughing at KCNA that we forget something abominable: for 23 million people, this is their only source of news. I won't kid myself into pretending that I can imagine living like that. If this mushroom was as large as the initial reports are saying, then even the North Korean gov't will eventually have to say something, and the only two acceptable options are either "It's the Juche bomb! Hurrah, hurrah!" or "It's a Yankee nuclear attack! Comrades, prepare for Armageddon!" Call me cynical, but I don't see "Oops, we fucked up with a munitions depot" as a politically acceptable option, especially if it's the truth (which it very well could be). Again, let's keep an eye on KCNA for the next few days.

Posted by: Another Dan || 09/12/2004 2:00 Comments || Top||

#15  Kim Jong-Il always wants to ELEVATE his explanations, but in the end, he always comes up a little bit SHORT

Posted by: BigEd || 09/12/2004 3:04 Comments || Top||

#16  There went Kimmy's cognac budget up in smoke.

Posted by: ed || 09/12/2004 9:04 Comments || Top||

#17  ..In 1984 or 85, the Soviets managed to cook off the munitions storage facility for the Atlantic Red Banner Fleet up near Murmansk. This was literally EVERY bit of reserve ammo - bullets, bombs, and missiles for their Atlantic Fleet; had a war started they'd have been (pardon the expression) sunk. Our satellites caught it at once, and because the explosion was so huge, it was thought at first that it might have been a nuclear event. The point here is that our Socialist brethren have a very bad habit of piling up all their goodies in one or two big locations - easier to guard that way. My guess is that's what we got here. Mike

Posted by: Mike Kozlowski || 09/12/2004 10:16 Comments || Top||

#18  hmmm go figure. I was born September 5th and my astrological chart just said I was "a sarcastic asshole"....none of the other good stuff. taint fair...

Posted by: Frank G || 09/12/2004 10:44 Comments || Top||

#19  Did some digging. Here's a bit of open source unclassified geography lesson for you guys. Yongjo-ri is in the area of the explosion. This area is known for its munitions factories and has several rail lines that form a nexus there. The Rodong/Nodong missle factories and storage depots are also within 10Km of this town. Draw your own conclusion.

Posted by: OldSpook || 09/12/2004 11:40 Comments || Top||

#20  could this have been a successful special forces adventure?

Posted by: PlanetDan || 09/12/2004 11:56 Comments || Top||

#21  re: special ops... Never ascribe to malice that which can be accounted by incompetence.

Posted by: OldSpook || 09/12/2004 12:39 Comments || Top||

#22  Bet the ChiComs were real happy about that so close to the border and (most likely) without a 'heads up'....

Posted by: Frank G || 09/12/2004 12:41 Comments || Top||

#23  OS: Never ascribe to malice that which can be accounted by incompetence. Note that this may be the sign of a regime on its last legs - nothing works, not even the military that keeps the regime propped up. There's also the possibility of internal sabotage, by aggrieved soldiers who have had enough and won't take it any more.

Posted by: Zhang Fei || 09/12/2004 14:04 Comments || Top||

#24  ZF, True, but the prevalence of incompetence and the "who gives a sh^t" attitude are so prevalent in dictatorships that even fear cannot overwhelm them.

Posted by: Mrs. Davis || 09/12/2004 14:10 Comments || Top||

#25  #10 And as far as a "fool the sensors" type of conventional explosion, not that easy: the intensity and gradient of the thermal activity in a nuclear detonation is unmistakable, and virtually impossible to fake (no real way to get conventional stuff to flash that intensely in that short a time then have the wavefront move at the right velocity), not to mention the absence EMP from a "fake". Listen to the man who knows. Our network of seismic detectors can pinpoint a nuclear test anywhere on earth within minutes. The "wavefront" that OldSpook mentions is the one that travels through the entire planet. It's kind of hard to miss that sort of event when it shows up at every single USGS seismic monitoring station in America. Never ascribe to malice that which can be accounted by incompetence. I'd heard this one as: Never attribute to conspiracy what can be explained by simple stupidity. An extremely cynical sort of Occam's razor. As Frank pointed out, this latest caper is just another watery turd on communist China's living room carpet, courtesy of their underfed Rottweiler. Too bad the politburo is so obsessed with global domination that it will take something much more severe (e.g., a Cherynoble-style meltdown) to get their attention.

Posted by: Zenster || 09/12/2004 14:55 Comments || Top||

#26  If it was I can't help but think that this was intended to get the Chinese attention, in addition to the US. And I think that will prove to be a really bad idea on Little Kimmie's part. The could have done the test underground (they're great little diggers, y'know) so a big, dirty atmospheric blast is probably deliberate. If it wasn't an "accident", that is...

Posted by: mojo || 09/12/2004 15:04 Comments || Top||

#27  Zenster... you didn't hear the wavefront and wave envelope from me. Nope. not from me. I didnt say that. Glad you did. ;-)

Posted by: OldSpook || 09/12/2004 16:47 Comments || Top||

#28  Thank you, OldSpook. Always glad to help dispel any false assumptions. Your JDAM and bottle rockets analogy was spot on. Envelope analysis is a critic feature in assessing seismic events. The oil industry has been using this methodolgy for many decades. Similar to the acoustical envelope (as opposed to harmonic overtones) largely responsible for the distinctly different voicing or timbre of various musical instruments, the envelope of seismic waves illuminates much about their origin. In musical terminology an envelope has several components. They are, in order of sequence: 1.) Attack: The risetime of an acoustic signal from zero value (silence) to peak amplitude (full volume). 2.) Sustain: The duration or period of time which the note then remains at peak amplitude. 3.) Decay: The time required for the note played to diminish back to zero volume. 4.) Release: A special term designating an intentional clipping of the note's length of decay period. The key term here is attack. Under no circumstances are conventional explosives able to mimic the massive and instantaneous energy release of a nuclear weapon's detonation. Chemical bombs have a much lengthier time of combustion as they explode. It is this one key difference that results in easily distinguishable attack signatures for the departing wavefront from such large explosions. The leading edge of a nuclear bomb's acoustic pulse signature will show a significantly steeper angle of rise from its baseline. It will also exhibit a much sharper "knee" as it undergoes a transition between the attack and sustain components of its envelope. The slower combustion rate of conventional explosives produces a less acute angle of attack and nowhere near the sharpness of knee when compared to a nuclear blast wave's risetime and peaking. The number of times a wavefront reverberates around the entire world and the speed at which it does this also assists in discriminating between nuclear and conventional explosions.

Posted by: Zenster || 09/12/2004 17:43 Comments || Top||

#29  Oooh, I do love going to dinner parties and not being the sweet little shopping-and-art-galerie wifie so many expect! I once had the loveliest conversation about the latest improvements in concrete technology....just think how much fun I'll have when throwing Murmansk,wavefront reverberation and knee sharpness into the discussion. Thank you so much, Mike and Zenster and all, but no thanks to Old Spook, who didn't add anything, and anyway I don't know who he is ;-D (Now, all I need is for someone to invite me to a dinner party.)

Posted by: trailing wife || 09/12/2004 18:14 Comments || Top||

#30  Yes, I'm shallow (at least when I'm in a fey mood). But you knew that, didn't you?

Posted by: trailing wife || 09/12/2004 18:44 Comments || Top||

#31  Zenster, you know much about FFTs and their first real-world application area? If you do, I'll suspect you of having either worked a lot in certain parts of west Texas or else that you're living in northern Virginia near a nice small town. (grin)

Posted by: OldSpook || 09/12/2004 18:48 Comments || Top||

#32  I'm just guessing, but as a legacy of the cold war we probably have sensors watching multiple spectrums of energy emission mounted on a variety of platforms covering the globe. I suspect we also have some pretty cool Mach N (N=?) stealth UAVs that carry some of these sensors.

Posted by: V is for Victory || 09/12/2004 18:53 Comments || Top||

#33  Supersonic stealth UAV? Nah - reality is much more mundane. That was one of the disappointments of mine upon learning some things - the majority of the work is simply good relaible sources and grunt work by analysts. Hard part is "selling the analysis product" to somone whose mindset and prejudices steer them away from solid conclusion by clashing with their world view. Happened a lot in the 90's.

Posted by: OldSpook || 09/12/2004 19:03 Comments || Top||

#34  #31 Zenster, you know much about FFTs and their first real-world application area? If you do, I'll suspect you of having either worked a lot in certain parts of west Texas or else that you're living in northern Virginia near a nice small town. OldSpook, it's a personal pleasure to shoulder some of the load for you around here. Maybe I can trade my services here for a brief review by you of the North Korean firepower calculations I posted over in the "South Korean minister sez ..." thread. Fairly rudimentary physics can shed a lot of light on what are really rather mundane processes, no matter how complicated they seem to be. As to FFT's; While I've never worked in the petrochemical industry or for any of the intelligence gathering agencies, a lot of semiconductor in situ process monitoring relies upon Fourier spectroscopy to analyse emission spectra. It permits accurate estimation of reactant utilization, deposition rates, energy absorption and a host of other vital parameters. I do know that the earliest applications for FFT analysis were in searching for oil deposits (reflected wave geological density calculations) and digital signal processing (i.e., crytography). I think the latter falls more into your realm of expertise, OldSpook (nudge nudge). Some of the most massive multidimensional FFT programs are currently in use at Stanford University to analyse signals gathered in the search for extraterrestrial intelligence. A basic understanding of these sort of applications is what permitted me to contribute to America's stealth and SDI programs. I enjoy thinking that my work on those projects helped us to win the Cold War. #32 ... we probably have sensors watching multiple spectrums of energy emission mounted on a variety of platforms covering the globe. Some of our stare-down mosaic arrays orbiting over eastern Russia may have picked up the blast flash in North Korea. We probably scrambled a U-2 to sample the updraft plume from this explosion. Simple remote laser interferometry (using FFT analysis) could tell us nearly everything we need to know about that mushroom cloud's chemical composition.

Posted by: Zenster || 09/12/2004 19:50 Comments || Top||

#35  #29 Thank you so much, Mike and Zenster and all ... Trailing Wife, your posts in particular are among some of my favorites around these parts. You and your husband would be most welcome guests at any of my dinner parties. Your "fey mood" adds a delightful bit of leavening to the ofttimes grim content here at Rantburg.

Posted by: Zenster || 09/12/2004 20:02 Comments || Top||

#36  Guys...It's really easy to tell if was a nuke. As one who was in the underground nuclear test program...we have had methods of detecting UNT's with good accuracy almost 20 years ago. Suffice it say we have satellites looking at the NK constantly for just that sort of thing. We have aircraft that are also capable of sniffing evidence of even a limited above ground test from quite a distance away. My bet is it was not a nuke.

Posted by: anymouse || 09/12/2004 20:12 Comments || Top||

#37  A stealth UAV would be a cost effective sensor platform for certain collection missions, to augment the very expensive and (and delayed?) next-gen orbital platforms. Laser remote sensing requires line of sight so normally would have to be from an airborne platform. Perhaps the geometry in the NKor case would allow LOS measurements from SKor or from other positions not requiring overflight, I don't know.

Posted by: V is for Victory || 09/12/2004 20:13 Comments || Top||

#38  "...munitions storage facility..." Hmmm...can a MOAB fit in a B-2?

Posted by: Tobacconist || 09/12/2004 20:26 Comments || Top||

#39  V, high altitude UAVs don't really require any stealth technology as they cannot be reached by a majority of common weapons. The drones we currently use do not have the time-aloft figures that would make them entirely useful for realtime monitoring. Better candidates for what you refer to are ERAST and solar aircraft platforms. Helios will incorporate energy storage for nighttime flight and be capable of continuous flight for six months at a time at altitudes of over 60,000 feet on telecommunications or science missions. The ERAST program is working to develop the technology base for a future fleet of such remotely piloted aircraft. For its final flight the Centurion carried a simulated payload of more than 600 pounds -- approximately half the lightweight aircraft's empty weight. John Del Frate, the NASA program manager, noted the airframe "really has the muscle to do big jobs."

Posted by: Zenster || 09/12/2004 20:39 Comments || Top||

#40  Z: Yes different platforms for different missions. Stealth UAV would be for cases where you don't want anyone to know you're there, and for collection of info that could be captured in a relatively short time. Helios is for long-term monitoring. I would think laser remote sensing of the cloud could be done in a relatively short time. BTW for Trailing Wife and others the FFT Zenster is talking about is the Fast Fourier Transform, an algorithm for calculating the Fourier Transform of a signal. Which is what? The Fourier Transform is the distribution of frequencies, i.e. the spectrum of a signal. The spectrum of a signal can tell you a lot about the source of the signal. For example the spectrum of the light emitted from an ionized cloud of gas can tell you what the chemical composition of the cloud is.

Posted by: V is for Victory || 09/12/2004 21:15 Comments || Top||

#41  Zenster, I blush. Victory, I must admit to being a solid fan of all engineers and scientists. I only got as far as differential equations, myself. When I took the intro.engineering course (math on its own isn't a viable career, dontchaknow), the prof. dropped by one grade the final exam grade of all those not intended by nature to be engineers. I got a B, and deservedly so. But Daddy was a biochemistry prof, and my husband started out as a Chem.E. So I have solid basis for my appreciation. (And facinating dinner party conversations!!)

Posted by: trailing wife || 09/12/2004 22:18 Comments || Top||

#1  How nice of Ms. Hilton. I mean, to give up her valuable film, fashion, and recording career to intercede on behalf of people she doesn't even know. She's a real trouper, I'll tell ya...

Posted by: Seafarious || 09/12/2004 1:15 Comments || Top||

#2  It's tough, being the best skank-ho in the business as she is, but you're right, she's a right patriot.

Posted by: Steve White || 09/12/2004 2:14 Comments || Top||

#3  She's cute, but she doesn't have much heinie...

Posted by: Fred || 09/12/2004 10:36 Comments || Top||

#4  from the vidclip I saw on the net, no apparent gag reflex either

Posted by: Frank G || 09/12/2004 10:47 Comments || Top||

#5  Okay, Emily, back to you. One-up us :-)

Posted by: Steve White || 09/12/2004 14:41 Comments || Top||

#6  In the time honored tradition of outdoing one's namesake, it seems she has most certainly accommodated more foreign pr!cks.

Posted by: Zenster || 09/12/2004 15:02 Comments || Top||

#7  "More rich pricks have been there than the, well, Paris Hilton..."

Posted by: mojo || 09/12/2004 15:09 Comments || Top||

#8  LOL Zman.

Posted by: Shipman || 09/12/2004 15:15 Comments || Top||

#1  LOL. Much better then using strong language which is so un-PC.....

Posted by: CrazyFool || 09/12/2004 18:15 Comments || Top||

#1  In a statement posted on its Web site, the Pentagon said: "Based on media inquiries, it appears that Mr. Seymour Hersh’s upcoming book apparently contains many of the numerous unsubstantiated allegations and inaccuracies which he has made in the past based upon unnamed sources." ..... Say it ain't so! A leftwing writer publishes allegations from unnamed sources? Has that ever hapened before? Has the NY Times ever parroted unsubstantiated allegations? My question here is: Why don;t the FBI agents and the military lawyer who saw these abuses go on the record? Why does Hersh think those three folks are protected by not revealing his sources? Finally, after the Killian memo hoax, and decades of John Kerry lying about Viet Nam, does Hersh, HaperCollins, NY Times, etc really expect me to believe that Hersh would not make up lies to sell a book and to make political gain?

Posted by: badanov || 09/12/2004 9:50 Comments || Top||

#2  the koolaid drinkers here at home and the Murats of the world will lap this shit up (nice visual?). All Abu Grahib, all the time - to try and damage W.

Posted by: Frank G || 09/12/2004 10:35 Comments || Top||

#3  All this "unnamed sources" stuff is starting to wear thin. When I was in school, we had to cite sources and make footnotes and all that crap. Imagine the look of all those footnotes if all they said was "unknown source" and date. Ctrl+C Ctrl+V ad nausium. Frank, your visual......something else.......

Posted by: Alaska Paul || 09/12/2004 15:06 Comments || Top||

#4  Write another evil America book, Sy. Reclaim your lefty icon status. Hit all the talk shows. Then go away.

Posted by: tu3031 || 09/12/2004 15:12 Comments || Top||

#5  It's Seymour "Call me Jim Jones of the Left" Hersh. Hersh is only jealous that he was not in the middle of the pile of Iraqui prisoners.

Posted by: anymouse || 09/12/2004 16:33 Comments || Top||

#6  Someday, a clever writer could write a book about all the crap Hersch has gotten wrong over the years. My favorite, certainly not his most egregious error though, was when he was caught in the middle of a forged love letters scandal between President Kennedy and Marilyn Monroe. The only problem was the letters had zip codes which didn't exist before Marilyn's death. D'oh! Seriously though, I think anyone who has a constant need to tear down their spouse, their family, their nation is kinda twisted. Sy is very twisted.

Posted by: JDB || 09/12/2004 18:20 Comments || Top||

#1  I'd be on the lookout for wanna be harbour pilots who don't want to learn to dock.

Posted by: Shipman || 09/12/2004 10:16 Comments || Top||

#2  There have already been cases of pirates commandeering a boat and then steering it for several hours in order to acquire piloting skills. I would advise all countries to immediately begin construction of extended offshore facilities for the offloading of natural gas tankers, as in ones that are well-removed from large population centers. Piers and pipelines are a lot cheaper to construct when compared with the cost of rebuilding a major metropolitan city.

Posted by: Zenster || 09/12/2004 15:18 Comments || Top||

#3  The possibility of an LNG carrier being used as a floating bomb to attack a port was one of the first possibilities considered by the US after 9/11. Nowadays, they get sailors on board, and an escort into port.

Posted by: gromky || 09/12/2004 17:54 Comments || Top||

#4  Nowadays, they get sailors on board, and an escort into port. Makes no difference. The hull could be breeched externally (shoulder launch missile or USS Cole-style attack). LNG carriers should have offshore docking terminals that are placed far away from population centers. Anything else is a disaster waiting to happen.

Posted by: Zenster || 09/12/2004 18:54 Comments || Top||

#5  They better not. If they blow up an oil tanker, they're going to piss off the environmentalists. Killing people is ok, but polluting the environment, now that goes over the line.

Posted by: Jabba the Nutt || 09/12/2004 22:53 Comments || Top||

#1  Ladies and gentlemen, faster your seatbelts.

Posted by: AzCat || 09/12/2004 1:59 Comments || Top||

#2  Want me to check it out?

Posted by: Joe Wilson || 09/12/2004 2:10 Comments || Top||

#3  Gee, and where'd you suppose they got that yellowcake?

Posted by: an dalusian dog || 09/12/2004 2:17 Comments || Top||

#4  IIRC Iran has a bunch of indigenous uranium deposits. Not sure how far along their mining operations are though.

Posted by: AzCat || 09/12/2004 2:45 Comments || Top||

#5  Rantburgers, I have three imporatant questions: 1) Do you think the centrifuges used to purify the hexafluoride have "Produit de France" or "Made in Germany" writtent on their bottoms ? 2) Is Yellowcake tasty ??? 3) For how long do you glow in the dark after having a slice of yellowcake ? Those who provide a reliable answer to question #1 are exempt from answering #2 and #3.

Posted by: Elder of zion || 09/12/2004 3:01 Comments || Top||

#6  I think they meant, international nuclear lapdog

Posted by: B || 09/12/2004 3:38 Comments || Top||

#7  The centrifuges used to purify the hexafluoride have "made in Pakistian" and "made in North Korea" stamped on them.

Posted by: Sock Puppet of Doom || 09/12/2004 4:41 Comments || Top||

#8  hmmm... why 5?. i think 2 are enough to turn zion into environment-friendly glass.....

Posted by: Sir Fizzle of Arabia || 09/12/2004 5:51 Comments || Top||

#9  Next war coming- up ...get ready for the big one..

Posted by: Dutchgeek || 09/12/2004 5:55 Comments || Top||

#10  Sir Fizzle, two for zion two for New York and San Francisco and the last one for commiting suicide when they realize the response is on the way.

Posted by: Sir Fazzle || 09/12/2004 6:32 Comments || Top||

#11  If a nuclear device goes off in the US I wouldn't give you 5 cents for a muslims survival over a period of 24 hours.

Posted by: Sock Puppet of Doom || 09/12/2004 7:35 Comments || Top||

#12  Meccatite will be on ebay by the 2015.

Posted by: Shipman || 09/12/2004 10:15 Comments || Top||

#13  I don't know about that "Sock Puppet' (#11)...Unless that nuclear device clearly breaches our Norad grid aboard a missile, from a known country, we probable would "hold back the gates of hell" to confirm an accident of launch or by rogue terrorists.

Posted by: smn || 09/12/2004 11:56 Comments || Top||

#14  On November 3 Bush can formally announce the re-targeting of much of our cold war arsenal at Iran, North Korea, and Syria and all nuclear and missile facilities in Pakistan. [Personally, I'd throw in Mecca and Medina too, but that's just me -- I've never been known as being PC.]

Posted by: Tom || 09/12/2004 13:38 Comments || Top||

#15  The centrifuges may have been made in Malaysia, like the ones we intercepted going to Libya. It's a global economy, folks. Outsource the components from everywhere and bring to Iran, assemble, plug in, concentrate. And voila! You have HEU. A little machining, a good gun barrel and you have a uranium nuke. And don't forget a good truck to haul it around with.

Posted by: Alaska Paul || 09/12/2004 15:18 Comments || Top||

#16  #14 On November 3 Bush can formally announce the re-targeting of much of our cold war arsenal at Iran, North Korea, and Syria and all nuclear and missile facilities in Pakistan. [Personally, I'd throw in Mecca and Medina too, but that's just me -- I've never been known as being PC.] Now you're beginning to make sense, Tom. I have no problem with resetting the destination coordinates for part of our nuclear arsenal over to locations in the Middle East. I'd even suggest making it publicly known. I hope that we're developing +Mach 5 hypersonic explosive warheads that can penetrate their underground centrifuge facilities. When Iran has been properly dealt with, the only yellowcake left will be in their urinals.

Posted by: Zenster || 09/12/2004 15:57 Comments || Top||

#17  I don't really care whether we penetrate their underground centrifuge facilities or not, just as long as we collapse the access tunnels and leave the whole area radioactively contaminated. We can always hit them again if they start digging again.

Posted by: Tom || 09/12/2004 18:49 Comments || Top||

#18  Tom, without wanting to be any more fractious than I usually am, notice how not very many (or zero) other people are concurring with your advocacy of using nuclear bombs against Iran? Why is that? One specific thing I enjoy about Rantburg is the number of seasoned military and intelligence personnel that we have contributing here. If your idea had much merit, some of these people would have come in and backed you up by now. I don't see that happening and hope you might begin to reassess your own strategy. Again, the use of atomic weapons against Iran would open a Pandora's box regarding terrorists being given free license to attempt nuclear attacks in America.

Posted by: Zenster || 09/12/2004 19:08 Comments || Top||

#19  I don't think that we have the capability of dealing with Iran the way we are dealing with Iraq. We need a sudden, total strike to wipe out both nuclear and military capability -- not another slow build-up and conventional weapons attack that gives the Iranian military time to hide weapons and evaporate into the population. The leadership in Iran is intent on killing us. They, and the other Islamoterrorists, will not hesitate to use a nuke on us as soon as they get one. And they will have no reason to delay after getting one, since that may cause them to lose it. I think that if you look at it from their perspective you will see that there is little reason to hold back. So why would you hold back? Haven't we learned that a conventional attack leaves these guys plenty of time to hide? I NEVER thought I'd see the day I'd say it, but: where are the WMDs? Where are all the insurgents getting their RPGs, etc. You want years of ground war in both Iran and Iraq?

Posted by: Tom || 09/12/2004 19:27 Comments || Top||

#20  I've never understood this "after November 3" crap. If it needs to be done, it needs to be done now. Waiting until after the election to effectively defend this country is at least as chickenshit as anything Kerry has been accused of. The political argument doesn't even make sense - if it's anything like a reasonable decision, Bush's poll numbers will go up - they have after every strong move he's made for the last three years.

Posted by: VAMark || 09/12/2004 19:48 Comments || Top||

#21  #19 I don't think that we have the capability of dealing with Iran the way we are dealing with Iraq. We need a sudden, total strike to wipe out both nuclear and military capability -- not another slow build-up and conventional weapons attack that gives the Iranian military time to hide weapons and evaporate into the population. The leadership in Iran is intent on killing us. They, and the other Islamoterrorists, will not hesitate to use a nuke on us as soon as they get one. I am in complete agreement, Tom. We will probably want to use aerial bombing and cruise missiles for knocking out these sites. A liberal sprinkling of cluster bombs afterwards might help to discourage any rescue or salvage operations. I'd also like to see some fuel-air bombs used to suck the air out of the bunkers and suffocate all of their underground personnel. A dozen for each site in a non-overlapping sequence would suit me just fine. I want every machine and scientist associated with this program taken offline permanently. Iran has been the source of so much grief that it's time for them to get their comeuppance. We need to run the bombsight videos on world-wide television just to humiliate them even further. I'd also love to see a couple of Tomahawk cruise missiles flown into a full session of the Revolutionary Council. Killing all the Iranian mullahs might not solve every one of our problems, but it would sure be a good start.

Posted by: Zenster || 09/12/2004 20:24 Comments || Top||

#22  Tom doesn't want us to telegraph our punch. This is a political decision, not military. The realistic situation in which we would attack without warning is almost impossible to conceive. It would be the end of America as we know it. We will go to the U. N. We will try to get consensus. If we can't we will give warning. If we don't get cooperation we'll give a final warning.Then we'll attack. I'm not one of those military guys Senster refers to. But I think I can say that when we do attack it will be with conventional weapons but in no way will it be conventional. Nothing our military has done in the last 15 years has been conventional. We have a military of exceptionally smart people, probably smarter than any comparably large organization in the world. That's the biggest reason why our wars last days, not years. I'd bet that if we decide to take on Iraq, it will be done differently than Afghanistan, or GWI or Iraq. I suspect it will be 12 hours of hell in Iran then silence. I'd prefer not to find out, but we'll see.

Posted by: Mrs. Davis || 09/12/2004 20:56 Comments || Top||

#23  Mrs. D makes a lot of sense. As I understood it at the time, one of the reasons for the long, slow buildup leading to the Iraq invasion was to give Saddam and the UNSC time to capitulate to the inevitable, thus avoiding active warfare. But they didn't, so we had to. Iran, on the other hand, has seen what happens when we actually invade. So by continuing their defiance, they are telegraphing acceptance, which need therefore not be threatened. Now that the EU and the UNSC have agreed to a Nov.1 deadline, I anticipate an announcement of continued non-compliance followed immediately by an announcement of consequential invasion. Followed within hours by film of nuclear manufacture and storage facilities destroyed (in the familiar but disturbing glow-in-the-dark green of night vision goggles), Republican Guard barracks and perhaps one missile to wherever the Mullahs are meeting. With all the ordinance at our disposal, I don't see why real nukes would be necessary. I'm not even sure that much in the way of boots on the ground would be needed for the defeat, although consolidating victory would be impossible without them. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that even as military spouses in S.Korea and Germany are preparing to move their households Stateside, the soldiers are getting ready to deploy eastward. After all, why should the guys already over there get to have all the fun?

Posted by: trailing wife || 09/12/2004 21:32 Comments || Top||

#1  "It's something that allows the U.S. to say it has a trigger" Back when the carriers practiced their surge,I predicted Pres.Bush would go medieval after the election.This story reads like the Administration is prepping the PR battlefield.

Posted by: Stephen || 09/12/2004 3:06 Comments || Top||

#2  God Help me, are the Eurocrats beginning to see the light, or are they basically capitulating to their genetically inherited instinct to form another Vienese Commitee and start discussing things and writing protocols until the earth is blasted from under their feet by the first Iranian nuke delivered to them courtesy of their own german engineered and french tested SHIHAB IV ?? They are underestimating the Mullahs !! Economic sanctions are not going to deter the Turbans who are certainly willing to starve and oppress their own people in the name of Allah, just to have their hands on a few nukes. If the Idiots in Europe do not wake up soon, they will have their asses blown internally and externally before they can say "Allah Hu Ackbar".

Posted by: Elder of zion || 09/12/2004 3:16 Comments || Top||

#3  start discussing things and writing protocols My bet is they will be "doing lunch" when they are turned into glass.

Posted by: B || 09/12/2004 3:48 Comments || Top||

#4  But the draft does not order Tehran to be automatically reported to the U.N. Security Council if it does not meet the deadline, as Washington wishes. ..Reported to the Security Council......gee, that sounds so grade-schoolish... Left unsaid also was what the consequences would be for Iran if it did end up being "reported".

Posted by: Bomb-a-rama || 09/12/2004 4:22 Comments || Top||

#5  Of course the Europeans will stick to November. Nov 1st, it will be. It lets the MSM cook up a big brouhaha about Bush wanting to invade Iran, and the resulting draft that will entail. Should be worth a few percentage points.

Posted by: VC the wonder dog || 09/12/2004 5:34 Comments || Top||

#6  I suggest to rename IAEA as IAE : International Association of Eunuchs of course they will have to drop their terminal "A", but thats not such a great sacrifice for having your name finally match your inner essence !!

Posted by: Elder of Zion || 09/12/2004 6:42 Comments || Top||

#7  Iran and Syria would do well to remember that there are 60 days between Nov and Jan and the US can accomplish quite a lot in that time. Any terrorist attack in the US prior to the election will give us just cause.

Posted by: B || 09/12/2004 8:37 Comments || Top||

#8  Sick as it may sound, it's getting to the point where Europe will require being hit with a nuclear terrorist attack before they wake up to the threat levels that they themselves are busily escalating. Madrid's atrocity should have served adequate notice but inspired the most callow sort of appeasement instead. The past year's diplomatic dithering, constant negotiating and general prinking about has produced not one micrometer of progress towards any significant resolution of the Iranian crisis. Instead, we have been treated to the ugly spectacle of Europe's improving trade relations with Iran. Meanwhile, the mullahs merely continue to increase the pace of their nuclear weapons development. Europe has been breathing their own exhaust for far too long.

Posted by: Zenster || 09/12/2004 16:56 Comments || Top||

#9  Look at Spain, Zenster. Look how France has been seeking character references from the likes of Hamas in an attempt to get their hostages back. I'm not sure that even being on the receiving end of nukes will cause Europe to do more than talk.

Posted by: trailing wife || 09/12/2004 18:26 Comments || Top||

#10  France has been seeking character references from the likes of Hamas trailing wife, your excerpt above really says it all.

Posted by: Zenster || 09/12/2004 21:12 Comments || Top||

#1  If Syria takes action on these concerns, our relationship can take a very different course with positive results,” Burns said. In diplo speak, that's purty darn clear.

Posted by: B || 09/12/2004 3:58 Comments || Top||

#1  NOW I get it. Monica Lewinsky was an agent sent by Mossad whose only relationship with Clinton was a sexual one. Atta was a devout muslim sent by Mossad who had no interest in women. Maybe I don't get it after all.

Posted by: PlanetDan || 09/12/2004 12:07 Comments || Top||

#2  How did I guess that this was a posting by Mike Sylwester?

Posted by: Zhang Fei || 09/12/2004 12:43 Comments || Top||

#3  Able to sense cosmic stupidity perhaps ZF?

Posted by: Charles || 09/12/2004 14:53 Comments || Top||

#4  ...He feared Allah, and he knew that the Koran would not approve of such deeds, and that he would be punished at the Day of Judgment." Atta apparently loved allan more than he feared Allah.

Posted by: anymouse || 09/12/2004 15:35 Comments || Top||

#1  I'm not sure why the link to the original article didn't work. Here it is: http://www.nzherald.co.nz/storydisplay.cfm?thesection=news&thesubsection=&storyID=3590641&reportID=62066

Posted by: Bryan || 09/12/2004 14:06 Comments || Top||

#2  While King David Hotel had civilians it was a political-military place the British HQ was there.

Posted by: Anonymous6361 || 09/12/2004 14:19 Comments || Top||

#3  Yes. And therefore the attack on it is only regarded as terrorism by those intent on equating Jewish actions at the time with Arab terror.

Posted by: Bryan || 09/12/2004 14:42 Comments || Top||

#4  Other terrorist groups have not been so successful, such as the ideologically driven Bader-Meinhof group. "Those sorts of people have been less successful because they’ve got older and they’ve got mortgages and, you know, have settled down." The Baader-Meinhofs were successful enough when they were busy robbing banks, blowing up stuff and murdering people (including one of our officers in their V Corp Headquarters bombing in Frankfurt am Main), and hiding out in Communist East Germany when the heat was on. Neither Andrea Baader nor Ulriche Meinhof "got older, got a mortgage and settled down." They were arrested when the gang was broken up after they were stupid enough to murder a German policeman (that got the German cops' panties in a wad, and the gang was broken up soon thereafter). And IIRC, they committed suicide in prison to "further the cause." (I know Baader did; I think Meinhof did too, but wouldn't swear to it. I was back in the States by then, and such news was sketchy at best.) I felt that blast, Professor Idiot - try selling this crap to someone who has no direct experience with these idiots. Pardon my language, ladies and gents, but this clown is a FUCKING WANKER. He'd have to raise his IQ 100 points to get up to MORON. You "get used to it," asshole. I refused to then, and I'm not going to start now.

Posted by: Barbara Skolaut || 09/12/2004 16:53 Comments || Top||

#1  The sad but blindingly obvious truth is that the muslims DON'T WANT OR TRY to integrate! Even the DUTCH!!! Yes, the DUTCH!!! The MOST liberal and tolerant people in the world have recently realized that they refuse to integrate. They won't learn the language, nor respect the laws and traditions of the Dutch. Lately, in the news, even the Dutch politicians have come to the conclusion that this PC "multi-culturalism" is an absolute failure and will only cause more problems in the future.

Posted by: 98zulu || 09/12/2004 12:06 Comments || Top||

#2  methinks Robin should remember her place, STFU and get thee back in a burqa. She's already converted in the name of PC. We need a one way dialogue with fundamentalist islam, preferably via GPS coords

Posted by: Frank G || 09/12/2004 12:31 Comments || Top||

#3  Robin Wright has been writing similar crap for 20 years now. She made many of the same noises about the need for us to understand the communists better. That of course was one God that failed. She's hooked onto another failing god.

Posted by: mhw || 09/12/2004 12:59 Comments || Top||

#4  What Robin Wright left the LA times? Allen be praised!

Posted by: Trolling for Allan || 09/12/2004 16:43 Comments || Top||

#1  The "Goodfellas" analogy is now complete, with Tariq assuming the Ray Liotta role. Uday and Qusay were both Joe Pesci, Izzat is Deniro, and of course Saddam is Paul Sorvino (although unlike his Hollywood counterpart, Saddam won't die in prison).

Posted by: Another Dan || 09/12/2004 2:34 Comments || Top||

#2  A friend of Chalabi’s said: “The Iraqi administration wants a quick and clean trial and to execute Saddam before the election. Salem got in the way because he wanted a fair and thorough judicial process.” I'm curious about one thing - what's the damn difference if Hussein gets a fair trial or not? Nobody's arguing that he's innocent of the atrocities that occurred under his reign of terror. As a result, he's likely to be found guilty in any court and then subsequently executed, so I don't see the point in worrying about whether his trial is "fair" or not.

Posted by: Bomb-a-rama || 09/12/2004 4:38 Comments || Top||

#3  Tariq assuming the Ray Liotta role What? He'll be doing the main character's voice for the next "Grand Theft Auto" game?

Posted by: Robert Crawford || 09/12/2004 16:03 Comments || Top||

#4  Loosened his tongue with the threat of the needle, did they? Or maybe they just used needles in the tongue.

Posted by: Zenster || 09/12/2004 21:27 Comments || Top||

#1  [Off-topic or abusive comments deleted]

Posted by: UFO TROLL || 09/12/2004 6:47 Comments || Top||

#2  UFO I especially like"evil alliance" of Americans, Kurds aided by Israel, and Shiite Muslims. must be a really despicable alliance if the Israelis managed to convince the Shiites to join in on this zionist plot ;) Ahmed, help me, I dont know what to do first, kill a Zionist , kill an American, kill a Shiite, kill a Kurd, or just go straight to god and paradise and my 70 virgins(TM).

Posted by: Elder of Zion || 09/12/2004 7:12 Comments || Top||

#3  [Off-topic or abusive comments deleted]

Posted by: UFO TROLL || 09/12/2004 8:26 Comments || Top||

#4  Damnit! Where's The Mossad?

Posted by: Shipman || 09/12/2004 10:12 Comments || Top||

#5  Yawn Its just Boris back in action, Ship. The Mossad Internet Cleansing Cabal should be along any minute now. Be sure to wear your tin-foil blogging hat today.

Posted by: whitecollar redneck || 09/12/2004 10:20 Comments || Top||

#6  See, he's gone just like a dirty bathtub ring.

Posted by: whitecollar redneck || 09/12/2004 10:21 Comments || Top||

#7  the gimp's back in the box

Posted by: Frank G || 09/12/2004 10:38 Comments || Top||

#8  UFO's theory of conspiracies is something to marvel at. Think about it: Jews, Kurds, Shiites, Christians all working seamlessly, harmoniously together. With that kind of cooperation, seems to me the world would be a WONDERFUL place!!! All we need to do is get rid of the troublemakers -- which is EXACLY what we're doing. And quite successful, might I add!

Posted by: PlanetDan || 09/12/2004 12:02 Comments || Top||

#9  [Off-topic or abusive comments deleted]

Posted by: UFO TROLL || 09/12/2004 13:01 Comments || Top||

#10  Family portrait UFOOlio?

Posted by: darkCircle || 09/12/2004 13:07 Comments || Top||

#11  "Bacon tastes goooood. Pork chops taste gooood."

Posted by: nada || 09/12/2004 13:10 Comments || Top||

#12  I don't get it, what's with the pigs?

Posted by: Rafael || 09/12/2004 13:45 Comments || Top||

#13  I have to conclude that UFO is a Muslim. There's no other explanation for his fixation with pigs as some kind of unclean animal.

Posted by: Zhang Fei || 09/12/2004 13:46 Comments || Top||

#14  Plus - real Nazis don't really care about Jews being Zionists. They would prefer that the Jews of the world move to Israel than be here in the West, where they allegedly suck the life out of Western civilization. Nazis feel that Asiatics like Jews, Arabs, Orientals are polluting the West. No real reason to worry about Zionists, who are, in the Nazi view, where they belong, far away from the West.

Posted by: Zhang Fei || 09/12/2004 13:51 Comments || Top||

#15  I do occasionally get out from under here. It's nice to get a shower in once in awhile. You start to smell like a bus station pay toilet after an extended surveilence on this pig. UFOOL please please please get a rubber sheet or medication for your issue and I'll put in a good word for you with the Elders after we take over. Oh wait we already have.

Posted by: The Mossad || 09/12/2004 14:20 Comments || Top||

#16  I suppose then that Zarqawi's complete helplessness against the JDAMs that occasionally fall out of the sky to interrupt his followers' plans is a point of pride for him?

Posted by: Atomic Conspiracy || 09/12/2004 14:44 Comments || Top||

#17  yep - they build morale for his troops

Posted by: Frank G || 09/12/2004 14:57 Comments || Top||

#18  [Off-topic or abusive comments deleted]

Posted by: UFO TROLL || 09/12/2004 15:53 Comments || Top||

#19  I don't know what the big deal about pigs is. It's a well known fact that all U.S. aid food shipments whether it be rice or corn has been washed and then dryed in pig fat/brine solution before being delivered to muslim countries.

Posted by: 98zulu || 09/12/2004 16:18 Comments || Top||

#20  This IS where we post outrageous conspiracy theories for the gullable and mentally challenged, right?

Posted by: 98zulu || 09/12/2004 16:19 Comments || Top||

#21  (donning my Homer Simpson disguise) mmmm... bacon....

Posted by: OldSpook || 09/12/2004 16:40 Comments || Top||

#22  Did you notice that if you print out the picture of those pigs and fold them three times, then unfold them and crumple them up, and then spread the paper out before you, you see a picture of a black pyramid with a Nike symbol at its top? It must be a conspiracy rivaling that of the "Zionist Rantburg Mossad Conference!" Good thing we caught it this early; soon we'll have it penetrated and compromised! Mwa-ha-ha!

Posted by: The Doctor || 09/12/2004 18:50 Comments || Top||

#23  [Off-topic or abusive comments deleted]

Posted by: UFO TROLL || 09/12/2004 19:19 Comments || Top||

#24  "I have secret knowledge."

Posted by: whitecollar redneck || 09/12/2004 19:21 Comments || Top||

#25  "my country" "my people" Every LLL, including our friend UFO, is a delusional little Hitler. It's what lefty fantasy ideology is all about, the vicarious illusion of dictatorial power through identification with actual authoritarians. It's a disease and the regimen of treatment has barely begun.

Posted by: Atomic Conspiracy || 09/12/2004 19:24 Comments || Top||

#26  "SOYLENT GREEN IS PEOPLE!!!" Now that was a conspiracy.

Posted by: whitecollar redneck || 09/12/2004 19:36 Comments || Top||

#27  Related news from the War on Terror, US Army Snipers in Iraq have recently been complaining of friction blisters on their index fingers.

Posted by: whitecollar redneck || 09/12/2004 19:40 Comments || Top||

#28  [Off-topic or abusive comments deleted]

Posted by: Anonymous6410 TROLL || 09/12/2004 19:40 Comments || Top||

#29  Come on Boris, say something funny. Your audience awaits. We crave you wisdom and insight.

Posted by: whitecollar redneck || 09/12/2004 19:43 Comments || Top||

#30  Does Boris understand that "Zionist" isn't considered an insult in these parts?

Posted by: VAMark || 09/12/2004 19:52 Comments || Top||

#31  [Off-topic or abusive comments deleted]

Posted by: UFO TROLL || 09/12/2004 19:54 Comments || Top||

#32  You don't know rednecks very well. Come Boris, Spew.

Posted by: whitecollar redneck || 09/12/2004 19:58 Comments || Top||

#33  You know, I was reading the Protocols of the Learned Elders of Christianity the other day. I'd forgotten about the part where Christians are required to kidnap Muslim women and use their underwear to make soup.

Posted by: Fred || 09/12/2004 20:04 Comments || Top||

#34  [Off-topic or abusive comments deleted]

Posted by: UFO TROLL || 09/12/2004 20:18 Comments || Top||

#35  Oh well, he must be tired, Fred.

Posted by: whitecollar redneck || 09/12/2004 20:33 Comments || Top||

#36  Fred, Yucccck! oh, and euwwwww, too. And probably not kosher.

Posted by: trailing wife || 09/12/2004 21:10 Comments || Top||

#37  Good night UFOOL. Sleep tight.

Posted by: The Mossad || 09/12/2004 22:34 Comments || Top||

#38  "...There was no reference to the Sept. 11 attacks in the tape...." That's because 911 was a Zionist plot. UFO's home page -- http://politicsandcurrentevents.com

Posted by: UFO || 09/12/2004 6:47 Comments || Top||

#39  EoZ, in this case the unsaid speaks for itself. UFO's home page -- http://politicsandcurrentevents.com

Posted by: UFO || 09/12/2004 8:26 Comments || Top||

#40  I'm a Gentile, Dork. Do you think I have some kind of aversion to swine? I grew up on a PIG FARM. I'd support the WOT just for the pork chops. Your assumptions demonstrate your thought processes. Like I said last week, you are an intellectual cripple. BWA..HA..HA..HA..HA

Posted by: whitecollar redneck || 09/12/2004 13:22 Comments || Top||

#41  I'm a Gentile, Dork. Do you think I have some kind of aversion to swine? I grew up on a PIG FARM. I'd support the WOT just for the pork chops. Your assumptions demonstrate your thought processes. Like I said last week, you are an intellectual cripple. BWA..HA..HA..HA..HA

Posted by: whitecollar redneck || 09/12/2004 13:22 Comments || Top||

#42  I'm a Gentile, Dork. Do you think I have some kind of aversion to swine? I grew up on a PIG FARM. I'd support the WOT just for the pork chops. Your assumptions demonstrate your thought processes. Like I said last week, you are an intellectual cripple. BWA..HA..HA..HA..HA

Posted by: whitecollar redneck || 09/12/2004 13:23 Comments || Top||

#43  I'm a Gentile, Dork. Do you think I have some kind of aversion to swine? I grew up on a PIG FARM. I'd support the WOT just for the pork chops. Your assumptions demonstrate your thought processes. Like I said last week, you are an intellectual cripple. BWA..HA..HA..HA..HA

Posted by: whitecollar redneck || 09/12/2004 13:23 Comments || Top||

#44  Typical Zionist Rantburg 'discussion' UFO's home page -- http://politicsandcurrentevents.com

Posted by: UFO || 09/12/2004 13:01 Comments || Top||

#45  Zionist Rantburg Mossad 'conference' UFO's home page -- http://politicsandcurrentevents.com

Posted by: UFO || 09/12/2004 15:53 Comments || Top||

#46  Don't worry doc, your secret is safe with me, just stay out of my country and leave my people alone. BTW, I am not taking anyone's side, only that of justice for all.

Posted by: UFO || 09/12/2004 19:19 Comments || Top||

#47  Typical Zionist Rantburg 'discussion' UFO's home page -- http://politicsandcurrentevents.com

Posted by: Anonymous6410 || 09/12/2004 19:40 Comments || Top||

#48  Come now WCR, who could possibly compete against these buffoons, they are in a class of their own. Take your oxymoron of a name for instance, who could possibly reach that low?

Posted by: UFO || 09/12/2004 19:54 Comments || Top||

#49  Why Fred, you're as nutty as the rest of them -- must be the company you keep. UFO's home page -- http://politicsandcurrentevents.com

Posted by: UFO || 09/12/2004 20:18 Comments || Top||

#1  divide and conquer

Posted by: B || 09/12/2004 4:07 Comments || Top||

#2  "This act has caused greater damage (to the Chechen separatist cause) than 10 years of the darkest anti-Chechen propaganda," Zakayev was quoted as saying. No kidding, Zacky baby. Get a clue, you're toast. Over just a few days time, people acting under your banner cashed in every cent of sympathy the world will ever feel for Chechnya. The well has officially run dry. Aside from your bloodthirsty Arab financiers, nobody's really going to want any part of your murderous cause. Here's another big clue; Continued alliance with your Arabic terrorist buddies is just going to cripple any further perception of your little band of thugs. This might be a good time to hand over all your weapons and begin negotiations in earnest for Chechnya to become a semi-autonomous region. It would be safe to say that seccession just isn't on the table, now or ever. Otherwise, methinks you're beloved territory stands a good chance of becoming a vast parking lot.

Posted by: Zenster || 09/12/2004 14:24 Comments || Top||

#3  I hope that the bloodthirsty Arab financeers get their just desserts, too, from the Russians. When it hits home, this stuff will stop. Until then, the world's petrodollars will keep financing our own destruction. We must dry up the financing, esp for the madrassas. We cannot afford another generation of nutcases.

Posted by: Alaska Paul || 09/12/2004 14:38 Comments || Top||

#1  If the locals are in on it, then f*** them too.

Posted by: Edward Yee || 09/12/2004 0:51 Comments || Top||

#2  For those of us who know how to read the news, this is obviously good news.

Posted by: B || 09/12/2004 4:04 Comments || Top||

#1  [Off-topic or abusive comments deleted]

Posted by: UFO TROLL || 09/12/2004 0:19 Comments || Top||

#2  [Off-topic or abusive comments deleted]

Posted by: UFO TROLL || 09/12/2004 0:19 Comments || Top||

#3  [Off-topic or abusive comments deleted]

Posted by: UFO TROLL || 09/12/2004 0:22 Comments || Top||

#4  UFOOL. I see Arnold outlawed sex with the dead out there. I guess that blows your shot for a girlfriend, huh. But there's always "Superserb"...

Posted by: tu3031 || 09/12/2004 0:40 Comments || Top||

#5  [Off-topic or abusive comments deleted]

Posted by: UFO TROLL || 09/12/2004 2:17 Comments || Top||

#6  [Off-topic or abusive comments deleted]

Posted by: UFO TROLL || 09/12/2004 2:17 Comments || Top||

#7  Dumb cunt. Has anybody complained to UUnet or MCI recently?

Posted by: Asedwich || 09/12/2004 2:35 Comments || Top||

#8  Probably thinks The Mossad is taking a day off.

Posted by: Shipman || 09/12/2004 9:59 Comments || Top||

#9  Come now, we know who the directors are. "We Jews, we, the destroyers, will remain destroyers forever. Nothing that you will do will meet our needs and demands. We will forever destroy because we need a world of our own." - Maurice Samuel 'You Gentiles', P. l55 Harcourt, Brace. 1924 "You have not begun to appreciate the depth of our guilt. We are intruders. We are subverters. We have taken your natural world, your ideals, your destiny, and played havoc with them. We have been at the bottom of not merely the latest great war, but of every other major revolution in your history. We have brought discord and confusion and frustration into your personal and public life. We are still doing it. No one can tell how long we shall go on doing it. Who knows what great and glorious destiny might have been yours if we had left you alone." - Marclis Eli Ravage, Century Magazine February, 1926 UFO's home page -- http://politicsandcurrentevents.com

Posted by: UFO || 09/12/2004 0:19 Comments || Top||

#10  Come now, we know who the directors are. "We Jews, we, the destroyers, will remain destroyers forever. Nothing that you will do will meet our needs and demands. We will forever destroy because we need a world of our own." - Maurice Samuel 'You Gentiles', P. l55 Harcourt, Brace. 1924 "You have not begun to appreciate the depth of our guilt. We are intruders. We are subverters. We have taken your natural world, your ideals, your destiny, and played havoc with them. We have been at the bottom of not merely the latest great war, but of every other major revolution in your history. We have brought discord and confusion and frustration into your personal and public life. We are still doing it. No one can tell how long we shall go on doing it. Who knows what great and glorious destiny might have been yours if we had left you alone." - Marclis Eli Ravage, Century Magazine February, 1926 UFO's home page -- http://politicsandcurrentevents.com

Posted by: UFO || 09/12/2004 0:19 Comments || Top||

#11  Fred, your filter is working overtime by double-posting -- leave well enough alone.

Posted by: UFO || 09/12/2004 0:22 Comments || Top||

#12  "We Jews, we, the destroyers, will remain destroyers forever. Nothing that you will do will meet our needs and demands. We will forever destroy because we need a world of our own." - Maurice Samuel 'You Gentiles', P. l55 Harcourt, Brace. 1924 "You have not begun to appreciate the depth of our guilt. We are intruders. We are subverters. We have taken your natural world, your ideals, your destiny, and played havoc with them. We have been at the bottom of not merely the latest great war, but of every other major revolution in your history. We have brought discord and confusion and frustration into your personal and public life. We are still doing it. No one can tell how long we shall go on doing it. Who knows what great and glorious destiny might have been yours if we had left you alone." - Marclis Eli Ravage, Century Magazine February, 1926 http://politicsandcurrentevents.com

Posted by: UFO || 09/12/2004 2:17 Comments || Top||

#13  "We Jews, we, the destroyers, will remain destroyers forever. Nothing that you will do will meet our needs and demands. We will forever destroy because we need a world of our own." - Maurice Samuel 'You Gentiles', P. l55 Harcourt, Brace. 1924 "You have not begun to appreciate the depth of our guilt. We are intruders. We are subverters. We have taken your natural world, your ideals, your destiny, and played havoc with them. We have been at the bottom of not merely the latest great war, but of every other major revolution in your history. We have brought discord and confusion and frustration into your personal and public life. We are still doing it. No one can tell how long we shall go on doing it. Who knows what great and glorious destiny might have been yours if we had left you alone." - Marclis Eli Ravage, Century Magazine February, 1926 http://politicsandcurrentevents.com

Posted by: UFO || 09/12/2004 2:17 Comments || Top||

#1  How this all develops will be something to see.

Posted by: Lucky || 09/12/2004 0:48 Comments || Top||

#2  "Most Arab jihadists see Chechnya as a lost cause," contends a U.S. intelligence analyst. "They’ve gone to Iraq." Death has groupies! How nice!

Posted by: tu3031 || 09/12/2004 0:50 Comments || Top||

#3  Again Saudi/Wahabi funding plays a big part in the story. Until this funding stops, Saudi is still one of our biggest problems.

Posted by: V is for Victory || 09/12/2004 7:55 Comments || Top||

#4  Who's selling "peaceful" nuclear equipment to Iran?

Posted by: Anonymous6092 || 09/12/2004 14:00 Comments || Top||

#1  Y'know, Fred, I've been thinking about that whole attention span thingy... For both the U.S. and the U.S.S.R, while the societies as a whole didn't pay much attention except during crises, key elements of each society (armed forces, intelligence bureaus, that kind of thing) stayed pretty much on-topic for the better part of half a century. You have a better perspective, of course, but it seems to me that -- in the States, at least -- this bespeaks a high level of trust amongst the citizenry that such things will be handled as they ought to be by those entrusted with the responsibility. Just as those who engage, overtly or covertly, to protect us, trust the rest of society to make sure there is something worth protecting. Or to put it another way, my husband can go off to work over-long hours at the office, even travel all over the world for days and weeks, knowing that I've got the homefront covered. About which he is -- mostly! -- right ;-) (even if he does have to be really nice to me if he's been gone for one of the longer trips) What do you think? Am I being overly romantical here?

Posted by: trailing wife || 09/12/2004 9:35 Comments || Top||

#2  I broke my last ten foot pole three years ago. :)

Posted by: Shipman || 09/12/2004 10:03 Comments || Top||

#3  Not about my husband, silly Shipman! About Ami attention span!

Posted by: trailing wife || 09/12/2004 13:48 Comments || Top||

#4  huh? :-)

Posted by: Frank G || 09/12/2004 13:49 Comments || Top||

#5  I broke my last ten foot pole three years ago Must've been painful

Posted by: Rafael || 09/12/2004 13:53 Comments || Top||

#6  TW Is he on a trip now? Has he seen Mr. Davis?It's ben such a long time and I'm wondering how long I have to keep the home fires burning.

Posted by: Mrs. Davis || 09/12/2004 14:05 Comments || Top||

#7  No, he's just at some conference this afternoon. But he hasn't travelled for ages, and I'm running out of recipes. Another round of Pizza Hut and KFC might just force him back on the road. No, he hasn't mentioned Mr. D, but then I only know those of his friends who follow him home, sorry. But I believe that after 7 years you can have him declared legally dead... I hope that helps ;-) Back to my original question about American/Russian attention span, O you delightfully silly people. My thesis is that while we as individuals may not pay attention for long, as a society we/they most certainly do. Yes/no/other (please choose one and explain)

Posted by: trailing wife || 09/12/2004 17:48 Comments || Top||

#1  Maybe he is telling the truth. I have never been clear of what the relation between Basayev and Mashkadov actually is, whether it is simply a case of bad cop/good cop, or the two are radically different and are simply both fighting the Russians using different tactics. Mass hostage takings have always been Basayev's trademark.

Posted by: Paul Moloney || 09/12/2004 0:20 Comments || Top||

#2  They should have thought of this before they killed babies. Now I wouldn't give you a plug nickle for any Chechen or an independent Chechen nation.

Posted by: Sock Puppet of Doom || 09/12/2004 1:34 Comments || Top||

#3  Sock Puppet of DOom, more then 40.000 Chechen children have been killed by Russians during the last 10 years..What does that make of the Russians, according to your standards.. I will never believe Maschadov masterminded or participated in this attack.. And I guess the US governement is on the same line of thinking, regarding the fact that they recently gave political asylum to Mr. Akmadhov, a political representative of Maschadov's regime. You're all being fooled by the Russians if you think Maschadov is responsible..In the interbellum , he was a fierce opponent of Basayev, yet he didn't manage to reign him and his Wahhabist croonies in..

Posted by: lyot || 09/12/2004 16:15 Comments || Top||

#4  Lyot, correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that the Chechen civilians are generally killed in the process of attacks on militants. Whereas the Beslan babies were definitely the chosen targets of the terrorists. If I'm right, that makes the Chechen civilian dead the victims of their own uprising, ie had there been no uprising, they would still be alive. Sounds like the difference between the Israelis and the Palestinians to me, given my current understanding.

Posted by: trailing wife || 09/12/2004 17:54 Comments || Top||

#5  Trailing wife, civilians are killed in Chechnya in all kind of circumstances.. Certainly in attacks on militants , but also at random..Rape, murder, abduction by Russians soldiers & contractniki, carpet bombing and so on..If the Russians had not violated their own 1996 Chasavyurt treaty, then a lot of these civilians would not have been killed..It just depends on how you look at it..

Posted by: lyot || 09/13/2004 8:47 Comments || Top||

#6  I sit corrected.

Posted by: trailing wife || 09/13/2004 11:19 Comments || Top||

#7  Russians backed out of 1996 Chasavyurt treaty after Chechen fighters crossed the border to Dagestan and attacked civillians and Russian military in Dagestan.. It really depends on how you look ar it! Basayev and Maskhadov are in accord, at least according to the rebels' website www.kavkazcenter.org This site has a choice of three languages -- Russian, English and Turkish. I have compared Russian and English and found out that information in English is different sometimes from the info in Russian. For western readers they offer more "filtered" and "politically correct", refined articles, while in Russian they justify such things as massacre in Beslan..

Posted by: Anonymous6428 || 09/13/2004 13:05 Comments || Top||

#8  This reminds me of all of the rantburgers spewing Turkish history before the Turks backstabbed us prior to Iraq. "The military will step in..blah, blah, blah." Yet it was obvious to anyone not mired in history where Erdogan's real intentions lay. There was yesterday and there is today. Belsan changed things - as did 911. Pointing to how people responded yesterday - is useful and intersesting - but not necessarily an indicator of future behavior. Belsan changed how Russia will react. I enjoy and encourage historical posts - but don't use them to read the future.

Posted by: feeling bitchy || 09/13/2004 13:29 Comments || Top||

#1  Jeez, what's next, another "hunger strike"?

Posted by: tu3031 || 09/12/2004 3:05 Comments || Top||

#2  Fred, from the same source I quote: "The al-Aqsa festival is an annual event organised by Palestinians to highlight Palestinian unity and to emphasise the importance of holy sites to religious groups, the Haram al-Sharif (Noble Sanctuary)" There is nothing that highlights Paleo unity like their linch culture style bestowed on their fellow brothers. There is also nothing that emphasises the importance of holy sites to religious groups in the eyes of the Pali's as the way their islamofaschist terrorist mob behaved in the church of nativity in Bethlehem when they had the chance to show their inner respect for the religion of other people. To sum it up, may be Islam should be renamed as: "the religion of tact" ??

Posted by: Elder of Zion || 09/12/2004 6:59 Comments || Top||

#3  so the rally was organized by the "Islamic Movement in Israel" Maybe the "Jewish Movement in Palestinian Terroritories" should hold a counterdemonstration?

Posted by: PlanetDan || 09/12/2004 11:52 Comments || Top||

#4  Jeez, what's next, another "hunger strike"? Probably, but the upside is we get to hold another barbeque!

Posted by: badanov || 09/12/2004 12:04 Comments || Top||

23:51 UFO
23:00 UFO
20:26 UFO
20:18 UFO
19:54 UFO
19:40 Anonymous6410
19:19 UFO
15:53 UFO
13:01 UFO
13:23 whitecollar redneck
13:23 whitecollar redneck
13:22 whitecollar redneck
13:22 whitecollar redneck
08:26 UFO
06:47 UFO
02:17 UFO
02:17 UFO
00:22 UFO
00:19 UFO
00:19 UFO
13:29 feeling bitchy
13:05 Anonymous6428
11:19 trailing wife
08:47 lyot