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2005-11-12 Europe
"The next revolt on French estates will use military weapons"
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Posted by lotp 2005-11-12 09:33|| || Front Page|| [11126 views since 2007-05-07]  Top

#1 Get those Concordes out of mothballs and charter up some Airbus 340s...convict 'em...and send them backto raghead-land.
Posted by anymouse">anymouse  2005-11-12 09:51||   2005-11-12 09:51|| Front Page Top

#2 Okay - and while we're at it, let's deport all Americans whose ancestors aren't Native American.

It's not gonna work, except for a few high-profile cases. Even if the French government wanted to, they can't just deport millions of people, you know???
Posted by lotp 2005-11-12 09:54||   2005-11-12 09:54|| Front Page Top

#3 You can deport anyone who is NOT a leagal resident. I'll wager that a large percentage of those they arrest are illegal, based on reports out of France.
Posted by anymouse">anymouse  2005-11-12 10:12||   2005-11-12 10:12|| Front Page Top

#4 No but it's a bit like McCain's misguided anti-torture bill in that a few high-profile deportations will seemingly leave the door open for many more whereas an official repudiation guarantees that promises the misc reants that they won't have to face some of the most unpleasant consequences can only do harm by encouraging them.
Posted by AzCat 2005-11-12 10:13||   2005-11-12 10:13|| Front Page Top

#5 Agreed - and I don't think the French should close the door to extreme measures in an extreme emergency. But we're a ways from that right now.
Posted by lotp 2005-11-12 10:17||   2005-11-12 10:17|| Front Page Top

#6 you are right, lopt. This is really a very big mess with no easy answers. People keep wanting to compare this to our integration woes, but this really is much more like the battle between the American settlers and the Native Indians. Two cultures whose core values clash - competing for control.

If you have one culture that demands what another will not abide by then there will eventually be a fight for control.

While this is about poverty and hopelessness - it is also about a clash of cultures that have NEVER...for thousands of years... been able to see eye to eye on how they want to be governed.

With the MSM, Saudi money, extremist organization and even the French government working against the average French person, I personally can't see how this will resolve itself without some very serious violence...if not very soon, then in our lifetime.
Posted by 2b 2005-11-12 10:23||   2005-11-12 10:23|| Front Page Top

#7 http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=mosques+stored+weapons&btnG=Google+Search

Posted by Sputz 2005-11-12 10:26||   2005-11-12 10:26|| Front Page Top

#8 That's also my fear, 2b. And it's one reason I spoke above about my own experience.

My paternal grandparents immigrated to the US from eastern Europe. Faced strong discrimination. Dad and his brothers fought in WWII, some wounded, some cited for bravery. They took blue collar jobs (scholarships were all gone by the time they got out of uniform, the ones that did), often were out of work for months during wintertime or if a plant was closed by stikes. We DID have tough times when I was younger, but I had decent, clean, orderly public schools and a combination of state grants and loans that allowed me (along with 2 jobs) to graduate from an expensive private college.

I've worked my way through several graduate degrees since, held good paying white collar jobs. It would have been a whole lot harder - virtually impossible as things stand now - if I were poor, black and from the banlieus in France.

The yuts in the cits really do NOT have the support both my father and I got for integrating. Don't get me wrong: we worked hard to make it. And I paid back every cent of my student loans while watching middle class white kids renege on theirs. (grrr) But in the end, it was achievable both for me and for many of the kids in my town. It's almost unimaginable for these kids, whose own parents in many cases haven't been able to (or felt the need to) pull them selves up through work.
Posted by lotp 2005-11-12 10:33||   2005-11-12 10:33|| Front Page Top

#9 you are the American dream! No one who comes here has it easy - from the very first settlers at Jamestown to the pioneers who crossed the continent for free land. What's killing Europe is the promise of a free lunch. Nobody ever gives you anything of value for free, unless they want something from you in return.
Posted by 2b 2005-11-12 10:39||   2005-11-12 10:39|| Front Page Top

#10 M Senni says that France must make its equality doctrine work by using US-style affirmative action.

Affirmative action has not been successful in the US. When we see each other as created equally, as with inherent value, then we can become part of a diverse community. Elitests and bigots are separatists.
Posted by Danielle 2005-11-12 10:45||   2005-11-12 10:45|| Front Page Top

#11 Once again, Rantburg University (and the affiliated Rantburg School of Hard Knocks) shines with the comments of lotp and 2b.

Immigrants always have it tough. My father's side is Scotch-Irish from the 1700s, and they were spit on when they arrived here (seems that the Puritans didn't approve of them). My mother's side arrived in the early 1900s, and both sides had plenty of education in making meals stretch and living at the bottom of the economic ladder.

What I perceive the difference to be between us and the French is indeed a key part of our culture: in America, you're American if you want to be and agree to share our ideals. If you do you (and especially your children and grandchildren) will be fully accepted and integrated into society (yes, I know, African-Americans have had a world of trouble).

Whereas in France, you can speak perfect French, read French newspapers, enjoy French food and drink, but if your parents weren't French, you won't be either. How much better off would the Arab and Berber immigrants be if they were truly accepted into French society? They sure as hell aren't now and haven't been all along. I think that's in agreement with the point that lotp makes: in America (unless your last name is Kennedy) you have to work your ass off, but you can make it. In France it doesn't matter how hard you work, even assuming you can find work.

Reading about the French riots here and other news sources, I really think the French are screwed. They brought in millions of people whom they won't consider to be citizens, even as they proclaim equality throughout the land. They can't ship millions of people 'home' because these folks have no other home, and no other country wants them anyway. They can't create jobs for the immigrants -- hell, they can't create jobs for native French people -- and the social welfare system won't stretch much longer.

The French can spit on the 'anglo-saxon' model all they wish. Their model doesn't work.
Posted by Steve White">Steve White  2005-11-12 10:58||   2005-11-12 10:58|| Front Page Top

#12 with all the acknowledgement that it's difficult to become assimilated into the French economy, these are Arabs and N. African muslims...how hard are they trying to integrate? It seems that they don't try hard in Britain either, but French ghettos, and forming no-man's lands....does that sound like integration? Or a Eurabian Belfast?
Posted by Frank G">Frank G  2005-11-12 11:32||   2005-11-12 11:32|| Front Page Top

#13 Affirmative action has not been successful in the US.

Yes it has - sufficiently so that it is time to dismantle it. If you think differently, you weren't around when I and my black friends were working to make it into the middle class. When women were forced (by US federal civil service rules and by the rules at many corporations) to leave their jobs - quit, not take paid leave or even unpaid leave - by the 4th month of pregnancy. That was still true up until the mid 1970s for federal civil servants.


how hard are they trying to integrate?

Many of their parents did try - and were put in their place.

Hell, even poorer native French who didn't have patrons were rebuffed - refused places in the schools that feed into the best jobs, etc. That's one reason for the way the unions strike - even their members don't entirely feel as if the doors of opportunity are open for them to advance very far.

It's a vicious cycle at this point, self-reinforcing and with predictable costs.
Posted by lotp 2005-11-12 11:55||   2005-11-12 11:55|| Front Page Top

#14 I feel Frank and others just hit a major point on the head.
My mom immigrated from Ireland and my dad's parents from Scotland. My mother in law escaped from Germany being Jewish at the age of 14 and had a sponsor coming to New York, then worked in the factory with the sewing machines. She was very happy to be here and loved this country from the very beginning.
While my family came from somewhere else, we still had to work. My dad worked very hard after the service fighting in WWII and Korea, and then in later years drove taxi and worked as a janitor to get by. Not everyone who comes to America gets a free ride. Gambling comes to mind here while my parents were trying to win "the big one". (this wasn't a fun time, in fact very hard times)
What you do get in coming to this wonderful country are the freedoms and lifestyle that you earn. I feel that what's important here, is to appreciate the ideals of the country you're in, and come together in a one ness if you will, if not leave.
I see alot of the problems that have erupted are because people came for all the wrong reasons, not moving to France because they appreciated their culture and way of life. I'm not quite sure why they moved there if not for that. I should brush up on my history here.
I too see alot of unrest and fighting getting worse, and I'm so sorry for this to be happening. I wish I had an answer to end all of this violence. Sigh....
Posted by Jan 2005-11-12 12:19||   2005-11-12 12:19|| Front Page Top

#15 lotp is wrong about France. Millions can be made to leave France and it will happen over the next century. The only questions are who will leave, how many will leave violently and precisely how long it will take.

Currently the Franks are leaving France through a fertility rate below the replacement level. 40% of births in France are to Mohammedans. Absent some new force, this percentage will continue to grow. At that rate, France will be a Mohammedan country within a century or so. Those gentiles left will convert, become dhimmis or leave. Millions gone.

The alternative is that the Franks will force the Mohammedans to become French or leave. There are two ways to do this, assimilation or expulsion.

America is the most successful country in getting people to abandon their traditional culture and to incorporate parts of immigrants' ultures into itself. Even here it takes 3 generations to produce a cultural American, though in a certain sense the first generation immigrant is more American than many 3+ generation natives. In any case, this is not a model the French would or could adopt in the time frame necessary.

That leaves inducing the Mohammedans to leave. I suspect the Franks will do this by democratically handing power to someone who, if successful, will become known as The Hammer II. The problem for America is that The Hammer II will be indistinguishable from Milosovich, though, undoubtedly, more nuanced. Millions gone, just as the Europeans did with their Jewish population in the 20th century.

America will have to decide whether it will countenance the Franks keeping France French or whether it wants to allow Mohammedans to take it over and make it a Mohammedan country.

It isn't going to be nice or easy, one way or the other.
Posted by Crereger Ebbegum7547 2005-11-12 12:23||   2005-11-12 12:23|| Front Page Top

#16 Why do I feel this terrible craving for popcorn?
Posted by gromgoru 2005-11-12 12:46||   2005-11-12 12:46|| Front Page Top

#17 people came for all the wrong reasons, not moving to France because they appreciated their culture and way of life. I'm not quite sure why they moved there if not for that

Spend some time researching the French colonies and then the war in Algeria. Many of the original northern African immigrants to France came because they fought on the (losing) French side and faced death if they stayed at home. Appreciating culture in a new country is way down the list of important issues if your reason for immigrating is that you face being wiped out if you don't.

They ended up working in factories or as janitors or as enlisted soldiers for France, if they could find work at all. Fair enough. But finding work became harder and harder by the mid 70s than when they first came, as the native French locked in their lifestyle and protected jobs through inflexible union rules and state regulations. It was harder still for their kids. And in the meanwhile they saw no chance for themselves or their kids to advance. OTOH, the French state threw generous social benefits their way as a sop to keep them quiet in the banlieus.

Now, the money is running out and so is the willingness of the kids to accept the status quo. And Islamacists may be and probably are leveraging that in ways dangerous to Europe and to us.

It's easy to say that the north Africans should have embraced French culture. But that ignores several facts: that the French very openly did NOT embrace THEM - quite the opposite - and that many of them only immigrated because of France's own actions in their homeland, both France's original colonialization of them by force and then the subsequent loss of that colony in a nasty war with lots of torture and indiscriminate slaughter of civilians.

CE7547, there's a big difference between the passive suicide of the French through failure to reproduce, on the one hand, and deporting large numbers of born-in-France banlieu dwellers, which is what was proposed above. We may yet see that happen, but not as a result of a somewhat higher-than-average rate of car burnings this past week.
Posted by lotp 2005-11-12 12:49||   2005-11-12 12:49|| Front Page Top

#18 ...deporting large numbers of born-in-France banlieu dwellers, which is what was proposed above. We may yet see that happen, but not as a result of a somewhat higher-than-average rate of car burnings this past week.

I quite agree. But I doubt it will be large scale deportation, as there is really no country to which to deport people born in France. Instead I am suggesting the problem will be ignored by the French ruling elite until it festers to the point where the French non-elite chooses a different leadership that is willing to induce millions of unassimilated yoots to leave or face death in France.
Posted by Crinesh Slamp2410 2005-11-12 13:05||   2005-11-12 13:05|| Front Page Top

#19 There are many major differences between the United States of the 1900-1940 time frame and France of today. One of the major differences was that the belief in "e pluribus unum" - out of many, one - was taken seriously. We DID integrate our immigrants into our society. THEY did choose to learn to speak English, and to embrace the cultural and social practices of other Americans, even when they chose to keep their native tongue and culture at home. The Muslim immigrants CANNOT make such adaptations because their culture claims that's "apostacy". They also don't WANT to make that adaptation, and the idiot French refuse to accept those who do try.

UNfortunately, I see the same kind of multi-culti stupidity evident in Europe (not just France) being pushed by the cultural "elite" in this nation, and it makes me sick. That is absolutely the wrong path to take and the fastest, easiest way to cultural suicide.

As for "affirmative action", the only true affirmative action that will work is to require people to have certain skills to be employed, and for those seeking jobs to gain wanted skills. It doesn't take much thinking to understand that someone that doesn't understand English in the United States is going to have a difficult time finding anything but a low-paying blue-collar job. Education is the key. The propensity of blacks to spurn education is the surest sign that the next generation of blacks is going to be in dire straits. If you're not marketable, if you don't have skills someone wants, you're dead.

There's an excellent book on what it takes to succeed, and what's important in measuring success. I read it when I was 13 or 14. It's "Anything Can Happen", by Georg and Helen Papashevly (I don't guarantee the spelling). It was published in the late 1940's, I believe. It illustrates the points I made above. If you're not marketable, you're screwed, no matter what color your skin is, or what your last name is.
Posted by Old Patriot">Old Patriot  2005-11-12 13:50|| http://oldpatriot.blogspot.com/]">[http://oldpatriot.blogspot.com/]  2005-11-12 13:50|| Front Page Top

#20 Yes it [Affirmative Action] has [been successful] - sufficiently so that it is time to dismantle it.

Therein lies one of the major problems with Affirmative Action. You believe AA has fulfilled it's objectives. But who really will make that decision? And what is the criteria for sunsetting such a policy? Because the whole social experiment was based on arbitrary goals, most likely there will continue to be perpetual race/gender/(fill-in the blank) preference programs.
BTW...The reason the French haven't adopted something simmilar is simply because it is an American concept.
Posted by DepotGuy 2005-11-12 14:15||   2005-11-12 14:15|| Front Page Top

#21 Well said, OP. Affirmative action was useful for a while to move minority folks into the middle class. I have a French associate at work who believes that France is racist. If true, I think La Belle France's problem must first be solved by the Franks in their own hearts.

If Mark Steyn is correct and this is the beginning of the Eurabian Civil War, then there will not be time.
Posted by SR-71 2005-11-12 14:24||   2005-11-12 14:24|| Front Page Top

#22 I don't buy the current quota-oriented affirmative action of the sort pushed by Jesse Jackson. I am a pretty strong supporter of free markets.

What I do support is removing structural distortions of the employment marketplace which dilute the value of actual skills in favor of political and social connections irregardless of other merit.

There was a bunch of that in this country when I was a kid and earlier. Ask any Jew looking to work for a 1st rate brokerage house on Wall Street in the 50s and 60, any woman in early pregnancy who wanted to keep her civil service job in 1972, and any Irishman here in the 1870s and 1880s.

The Irish succeeded here despite open, overt discrimination in job hiring because of the frontier - they made lives for themselves further West. Today, while we have some technical and business frontiers for those with entrepreneurial instincts, it isn't quite the same degree of free market for ideas and effort as in the 19th century.

Today's inner city minorities, as OP notes, are a different issue. Precisely in part due to welfare, they are LESS likely to have useful skills and habits than the generation of the 60s. Lifetime welfare both reduces the incentives for working and also - crucially - means society washes their hands of that community after paying the tax bill, especially since Black politicians run many of the cities and blacks head the school system. In a very real way, welfare LIMITS the likelihood of getting the skills necessary for success, not only by disincentivizing work but also by disincentivizing (or preventing) society from investing in schools, police and other systems in ways that promote accountability and competitive success.

The solution? More freeing of markets, especially the market for elementary and high school education. Vouchers, not entrenched teachers unions, with some investment in things like highspeed Internet access to leapfrog past old industrial models of teaching to leverage information technology and generate current skills of use to employers.
Posted by lotp 2005-11-12 14:42||   2005-11-12 14:42|| Front Page Top

#23 Why do y'all think the French are suddenly going to have the guts to do mass deportations when they can't even stop themselves from paying riot-geld to the gangs?

Personally, I dislike the idea of deportations on both a moral and a pragmatic level... I don't think the Chiraqs of the world are suddenly going to turn into rabid nationalists.

HELL, even though they can pay riotgeld, they can't bring themselves to actually _integrate_ the Arabs to save their lives, what makes you think they could do something much more extreme than that?
Posted by Phil 2005-11-12 15:04||   2005-11-12 15:04|| Front Page Top

#24 This is Europe Phil - tensions have a way of ending up in rather 'nasty' ways - really really nasty ways.

As for deportations; Here's a gedanken experiment...

Air France has quite a large fleet, and even if they didn't use all their planes, they'd be able to deport 58,000 with each trip - one way to Saudi Arabia, with an escort by the French Air Force :) Each trip should take about 7 hrs, meaning up to 3 trips a day - 210,000/day.

I have a sense of Schaudenfraude at the moment, but the trouble is, it's not those elitist bastards that are picking up the tab for their misguided social engineering, post-colonialist, anti-Anglo-Saxon, deconstructionalist, anti-Christian, Socialist mind-games. It's the poor sods that are stuck in the poorer areas that are bearing the brunt of this. My sympathies are for them.
Posted by Tony (UK) 2005-11-12 15:59||   2005-11-12 15:59|| Front Page Top

#25 LOTP is absolutely right when he speaks about the inflexible French economic structure being a key player here. Remember, it is their screwed up system that requires even those with jobs to only work 4 days a week.

In the US, if you work hard and focus, you can pull yourself out of poverty. It is not that hard to do it. Look at all of the immigrants who do this every single year.

In France, it is almost impossible for someone to start a new business. The structural roadblocks put in place by the government and the idiotic unions kill any attempt at social mobility.

These structural problems combined with French racism are the real issues here. It is no wonder that these people are frustrated. What you are seeing is the result of years and years of French arrogance run amok. The elites who run the state know best. Give the little people some bread and they will be fine. Well, it is coming home to roost.
Posted by remoteman 2005-11-12 16:32||   2005-11-12 16:32|| Front Page Top

#26 Gotta agree remoteman.

This from the Heritage Foundation at Index of Economic Freedom, based on several indices, such as Trade Policy, Monetary policy etc.

Here's a snippet;


 Hong Kong	1 [1.35]

 Singapore	2 [1.60]

 Luxembourg	3 [1.63]

 Estonia	4 [1.65]

 Ireland	5 [1.70]

 New Zealand	5 [1.70]

 United Kingdom	7 [1.75]

 Denmark	8 [1.76]

 Iceland	8 [1.76]

 Australia	10 [1.79]

 Chile	11 [1.81]

 Switzerland	12 [1.85]

 United States	12 [1.85]

 Sweden	14 [1.89]

 Finland	15 [1.90]

 Canada	16 [1.91]

 Netherlands	17 [1.95]

 Germany	18 [2.00]

 Austria	19 [2.09]

 Bahrain	20 [2.10]

 Belgium	21 [2.13]

 Cyprus	21 [2.13]

 Lithuania	23 [2.18]

 El Salvador	24 [2.20]

 Bahamas	25 [2.25]

 Italy	26 [2.28]

 Taiwan	27 [2.29]

 Latvia	28 [2.31]

 Malta	29 [2.33]

 Norway	29 [2.33]

 Spain	31 [2.34]

 Barbados	32 [2.35]

 Czech Republic	33 [2.36]

 Israel	33 [2.36]

 Hungary	35 [2.40]

 Slovak Republic, The	36 [2.43]

 Botswana	37 [2.44]

 Portugal	37 [2.44]

 Japan	39 [2.46]

 Trinidad and Tobago	40 [2.49]

 Poland	41 [2.54]

 Armenia	42 [2.58]

 Uruguay	43 [2.60]

 France	44 [2.63]
Posted by Tony (UK) 2005-11-12 16:42||   2005-11-12 16:42|| Front Page Top

#27 The French situation is a godsend for political cartoonists.

Problem is that most cartoonists are anti-Bush, against the effort to liberate Iraq, belittle the War on Terrorism, and deny the existance of the ongoing and spreading International Jihad War. This leaves most of them unable to offer anything other than French-mocking images.

As a non-liberal cartoonist, I'm drawing cartoons and conclusions which most media outlets think are alarmist, extremist, and right-wing.

Dry Bones
Israel's comic strip since 1973
Posted by yaakov kirschen">yaakov kirschen  2005-11-12 16:45|| http://drybonesblog.blogspot.com]">[http://drybonesblog.blogspot.com]  2005-11-12 16:45|| Front Page Top

#28 I'm drawing cartoons and conclusions which most media outlets think are alarmist, extremist, and right-wing.

That would explain why I like your cartoons so much.
Posted by Matt 2005-11-12 17:37||   2005-11-12 17:37|| Front Page Top

#29 yaakov - great cartoons! Very impressive.
Posted by 2b 2005-11-12 17:38||   2005-11-12 17:38|| Front Page Top

#30 Thanks Lotp. I have alot of homework to do, and I'll get on it so I can better understand what's going on in France.
Posted by Jan 2005-11-12 18:56||   2005-11-12 18:56|| Front Page Top

#31 Yaakov- you're now linked on my blog. That should be worth, eh, 2 hits...
Posted by Jim">Jim  2005-11-12 19:20|| http://Technochitlins.com]">[http://Technochitlins.com]  2005-11-12 19:20|| Front Page Top

#32 OMG, Yaakov, you have a website!!!!!!!

Sorry to get overexcited, but I have a collection of your comics from 1976, that I brought into my marriage. Welcome to Rantburg, sir!
Posted by trailing wife 2005-11-12 19:40||   2005-11-12 19:40|| Front Page Top

#33 --Okay - and while we're at it, let's deport all Americans whose ancestors aren't Native American.--

You can sign your property over to me.
Posted by anonymous2u 2005-11-12 20:21||   2005-11-12 20:21|| Front Page Top

#34 To deport is to prove that French and Euro-Socialism is de facto failure - the Frenchies and Chirac are in a real ideo quandry.
Posted by JosephMendiola 2005-11-12 21:55||   2005-11-12 21:55|| Front Page Top

00:00 Matt K.
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